Is Belmont serious with SAT'S card?

[only11]

Great holiday weekend and Belmont has a dreadful Saturday card....looks like a mid week card....

[DAT]

Can't card good races with most of the good horses down the NJ Turnpike.

[only11]

Can't card good races with most of the good horses down the NJ Turnpike.
Maybe they ought try doing the same #$@! !

[point given]

I guess I will have to trust you on this, as you neglected to post a link.

[cj]

I'll take the quantity of horses they are offering over quality any day of the week. I'd rather have both of course, but given the state of the game now give me field size.

[Deepsix]

CJ that is interesting. I believe I was reading the TG (??) site a couple days ago and a poster mentioned the fields at MP. His/her point was that in these larger fields there were only 5/6 horses that were really competitive and the others were solid non-contenders. So, in actuality you were only getting the same old 5-6 horse fields that were present before this 'experiment'.

Now, as I post this I admit I don't know if this view is valid, or not. I'm still following the start of the meet at Mth and like most meets I give it a couple weeks to settle in before I dip my toe in the water.

Just adding some fluff to the conversation.

[the little guy]

Maybe they ought try doing the same #$@! !


At a certain point this kind of nonsense grows tiresome. Monmouth Park got $50 million from the State of NJ for purses to run their current meet....how exactly should NYRA go about achieving that? Do you have the cash for us? If so, please feel free to PM me.

Otherwise......

[only11]

CJ that is interesting. I believe I was reading the TG (??) site a couple days ago and a poster mentioned the fields at MP. His/her point was that in these larger fields there were only 5/6 horses that were really competitive and the others were solid non-contenders. So, in actuality you were only getting the same old 5-6 horse fields that were present before this 'experiment'.

Now, as I post this I admit I don't know if this view is valid, or not. I'm still following the start of the meet at Mth and like most meets I give it a couple weeks to settle in before I dip my toe in the water.

Just adding some fluff to the conversation.
you stole my thunder...was thinking the same thing..half the horses are noncontenders anyway..

[cj]

you stole my thunder...was thinking the same thing..half the horses are noncontenders anyway..

They may be, but they still take money and if you can safely eliminate half the field in any race you will be playing a positive expectation game.

[the little guy]

They may be, but they still take money and if you can safely eliminate half the field in any race you will be playing a positive expectation game.


Last Saturday, Belmont and Hollywood handled $26 for every dollar of purse money given away. Monmouth handled $11.

Presque Isle just broke par at around $1.25.

[RockHardTen1985]

At a certain point this kind of nonsense grows tiresome. Monmouth Park got $50 million from the State of NJ for purses to run their current meet....how exactly should NYRA go about achieving that? Do you have the cash for us? If so, please feel free to PM me.

Otherwise......

Maybe you have said it somewhere, but if so I have missed it, so If you dont mind please respond...
What is your opinion on the Monmouth meet? Do you think something like that would work for NY? I think the 3 days a week is a great great idea, I handicap daily and likely bet as much as anyone, but maybe Monday-Wednesday could be dark across the country. Then everything would not be so watered down?

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

Last Saturday, Belmont and Hollywood handled $26 for every dollar of purse money given away. Monmouth handled $11.

Presque Isle just broke par at around $1.25.

Very interesting breakdown Andy.

[cj]

Last Saturday, Belmont and Hollywood handled $26 for every dollar of purse money given away. Monmouth handled $11.

Presque Isle just broke par at around $1.25.

This is exactly why I love playing big fields in New York.

[the little guy]

Maybe you have said it somewhere, but if so I have missed it, so If you dont mind please respond...
What is your opinion on the Monmouth meet? Do you think something like that would work for NY? I think the 3 days a week is a great great idea, I handicap daily and likely bet as much as anyone, but maybe Monday-Wednesday could be dark across the country. Then everything would not be so watered down?


From a horseplayer's perspective I can certainly understand why people are playing Monmouth and if I had the time I am sure I would be looking at their races.

Relating this to NYRA doesn't work, for no other reason than we are legislated to run a certain number of days. The other reasons should be obvious as well.

[Cardus]

Last Saturday, Belmont and Hollywood handled $26 for every dollar of purse money given away. Monmouth handled $11.

Presque Isle just broke par at around $1.25.

I've never heard of this issue being addressed this way.

Very interesting and informative.

[therussmeister]

Last Saturday, Belmont and Hollywood handled $26 for every dollar of purse money given away. Monmouth handled $11.

Presque Isle just broke par at around $1.25.

I think Prairie Meadows on Tuesdays is typically around $1.15

[kenwoodall2]

I think Prairie Meadows on Tuesdays is typically around $1.15
Gives you an idea how little some tracks that start with "P" get in ADW bets.

[OTM Al]

Well, Saturday might be a little light, but I think next week may make up for it.

[Robert Goren]

Last Saturday, Belmont and Hollywood handled $26 for every dollar of purse money given away. Monmouth handled $11.

Presque Isle just broke par at around $1.25. This is best way to look at it. Thank you for the numbers.

[Tom]

Doesn't NJ NOT take money fro the pools, too?
I heard that on ATR.

For my money, Mth had driven me back to Belmont.
Last Saturday was all the NJ racing I need this year.

Bel Turf and WOX. No Jersey.:rolleyes:

[JustRalph]

Doesn't NJ NOT take money fro the pools, too?
I heard that on ATR.

For my money, Mth had driven me back to Belmont.
Last Saturday was all the NJ racing I need this year.

Bel Turf and WOX. No Jersey.:rolleyes:


exactly what I did....playing HOL and BEL.... picked up WOX and Delaware......still luke warm on MON for the moment.........CNL opens in a couple of days I see......so far HOL and DEL have been very profitable

[slewis]

While I've been jostling with TLG on another thread, I've been working on Saturday's card and I mean really...it's not so bad.

You have at least 9 or 10 starters scheduled in each race..and granted there are a few cheapish claimers in the belly..but keep in mind it's a long holiday weekend, and EVERY track will struggle to get good quality 3 days.

PJ Campo and Andrew Byrnes are doing a good job.

The Vagrancy has only 7 starters but hey...they dangled Gr 2 status and $150k for anyone who wants to come take it.

The last race Md state breds could be a Md sp wt at many good tracks on the east coast as the NY breds are no panzys anymore.

The sad thing is, is that we are starting to see the effects of the horse shortage in this industry and the competition and choices we all seek as handicappers will be strangled by an issue racetrack management will have little control over. It's going to get worse before is gets better until we breed more quantity......quality horses.

[thespaah]

I guess I will have to trust you on this, as you neglected to post a link.
http://equibase.com/static/entry/BEL052910USA-EQB.html

WOW!!! What a weak card. 10 races. 81 entered
3 state breds
3 mdn claimers
5 total maiden races
1 allowance
1 stake...a G2 with a whopping 7 entered.
1 Alw/opt claimer( 25k)
Jeez...This is a saturday card?

[thespaah]

At a certain point this kind of nonsense grows tiresome. Monmouth Park got $50 million from the State of NJ for purses to run their current meet....how exactly should NYRA go about achieving that? Do you have the cash for us? If so, please feel free to PM me.

Otherwise......NY has racinos. Why is the state govt not using some of that revenue to support NYRA? That is a question. Not a challenge to an argument. I have always been cusrious as to why the VLT money is not being spread around to all racing venues? Or is it?

[the little guy]

While I've been jostling with TLG on another thread


Jostling?

You're like Foreman in Zaire....


....Andy-Boom-Bye-YAE!

[thespaah]

From a horseplayer's perspective I can certainly understand why people are playing Monmouth and if I had the time I am sure I would be looking at their races.

Relating this to NYRA doesn't work, for no other reason than we are legislated to run a certain number of days. The other reasons should be obvious as well.Legisalted to run a certain number of days.
Perhaps THAT is the problem.
In fact was it not the meddling of the Florida state legislature in handing out prime winter dates that essentially scuttled Hialeah?
I understand there was significant pressure from the former owners of Gulfstream Park brought to bear. Lobbying, if you will.
However the point remains that government interference in the horse racing business has been detrimental to the sport.
I am well aware of the appetite politicians have for pari-mutuel revenues. So over the years government has increased the amount of dates.
Those numbers of dates arew no longer supported by the fan base.
As previously stated, just about everything government touches eventually acquires the odor of an unmucked stall.

[ManeMediaMogul]

Maybe you have said it somewhere, but if so I have missed it, so If you dont mind please respond...
What is your opinion on the Monmouth meet? Do you think something like that would work for NY? I think the 3 days a week is a great great idea, I handicap daily and likely bet as much as anyone, but maybe Monday-Wednesday could be dark across the country. Then everything would not be so watered down?

Two days a week in Japan = Huge crowds, big fields, lots of handle and big purses. What's not to like?

The rest of the week you can be a real human being - go to the theatre with your wife, take the kids to the ballgame or maybe read a novel.

[ManeMediaMogul]

http://equibase.com/static/entry/BEL052910USA-EQB.html

WOW!!! What a weak card. 10 races. 81 entered
3 state breds
3 mdn claimers
5 total maiden races
1 allowance
1 stake...a G2 with a whopping 7 entered.
1 Alw/opt claimer( 25k)
Jeez...This is a saturday card?

Saratoga will be even worse.

[thespaah]

Saratoga will be even worse.Do you think Mth will hit the Spa meet that hard?
I hope you're not correct.
But we'll see, I guess.
I hope to be up there in mid August.

[PhantomOnTour]

Ya'll are forgetting that Belmont has a Monday card and that's Met Mile day. My thinking is that the Monday card will be good as a lead-in to the Met.

That fat handle Monmouth had wasn't even close to what they'll need to make this meet a financial success. They get a very small % of monies wagered outta state.

New York racing rules.

[DAT]

I don't think Saratoga will be hit hard. People want to win there more than anywhere else. It has an allure that will overcome the 20-25k smaller purses.

Plus, there are so many important stakes races that many horses will be prepping there early in the meet for stakes a little later on.

[KingChas]

I don't think Saratoga will be hit hard.

If anything the Spa will profit bigtime during the weekdays.(Simulcast & on track.)
The only problem I foresee is the weekend graded stakes races with horses being entered at both MP and SAR.
The softer spot with the most jingle will prevail.Ala the trainers/owners decision.

[NJ Stinks]

CJ that is interesting. I believe I was reading the TG (??) site a couple days ago and a poster mentioned the fields at MP. His/her point was that in these larger fields there were only 5/6 horses that were really competitive and the others were solid non-contenders. So, in actuality you were only getting the same old 5-6 horse fields that were present before this 'experiment'.

Now, as I post this I admit I don't know if this view is valid, or not. I'm still following the start of the meet at Mth and like most meets I give it a couple weeks to settle in before I dip my toe in the water.

Just adding some fluff to the conversation.

Monmouth may well turn into Chalk City but nobody could hit the 50 cent Pick 5 last Saturday and pool was $193,000. Does that sort of thing happen when the races aren't 'really competitive'?

[KingChas]

For my money, Mth had driven me back to Belmont.
Last Saturday was all the NJ racing I need this year.



Another man's perspective;
I am in handicapping heaven, I love it.
11-13 races at MP. (Full Fields)
Weekend races at BEL, with Saratoga lurking.
Like playing poker, if I don't like the draw,I just check or fold. ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

The rest of the week you can be a real human being - go to the theatre with your wife, take the kids to the ballgame or maybe read a novel.You act as if you don't have any self control, or someone has a gun to your head.

[ManeMediaMogul]

Do you think Mth will hit the Spa meet that hard?
I hope you're not correct.
But we'll see, I guess.
I hope to be up there in mid August.

The horses claimed at Monmouth will have to stay until the end of the meet. The horse shortage at Saratoga will be immense. I wouldn't be surprised to see them revert to eight races a day.

You'll be looking at New York-breds and two-year-olds. It is going to be ugly.

[Deepsix]

The horses claimed at Monmouth will have to stay until the end of the meet. The horse shortage at Saratoga will be immense. I wouldn't be surprised to see them revert to eight races a day.

You'll be looking at New York-breds and two-year-olds. It is going to be ugly.

I haven't verified these numbers so don't hold me to them, BUT--- I read that the first two days 19 horses were claimed. Now, I'm gunna guess that those were NJ breds, and claimers that dropped and were tagged. I wouldn't think those horses would not have been going to Saratoga anyway, and won't have any impact on the Spa's meet.

Help me out by explaining. Thanks.

[ManeMediaMogul]

You act as if you don't have any self control, or someone has a gun to your head.

All evidence to the contrary.

I pick my spots and there are lots of days I forego the races for other pursuits - sports, beach, gardening. It seems a lot of participants here crave daily action and I think it would be good for them to give it a rest once in a while.

Better results come from focus and a clear head.

[ManeMediaMogul]

I haven't verified these numbers so don't hold me to them, BUT--- I read that the first two days 19 horses were claimed. Now, I'm gunna guess that those were NJ breds, and claimers that dropped and were tagged. I wouldn't think those horses would not have been going to Saratoga anyway, and won't have any impact on the Spa's meet.

Help me out by explaining. Thanks.

19 horses claimed in two days is a lot and there is going to be more racing days (14 maybe?) before the Spa opens. If those numbers hold until then, that means 125-140 horses out of the claiming ranks. Add the 2YOs going for the big purses that buck their shins, etc., older horses that get injured or need rest and those who are going to stay for the big money and that could mean 200-400 horses out of the Saratoga population.

In the last few years, Saratoga's racing product has declined. New York-breds have taken up the slack and the stakes are still solid, but those great allowance races in days past are missing and the claiming races seem to have short fields, so I am not really stretching here.

Saratoga will present racing, it just won't be what Alfred G. Vanderbilt and C.V. Whitney were familiar with. It will be more like Finger Lakes at the Spa.

[Deepsix]

In my post above I see I typed a double-negative, so I regret that. I appreciate you going to the substance. <smile>

I wouldn't think the high number of claims will continue. My experience is that it is typical at the beginning of a meet that the number of claims are elevated but taper off pretty quickly to a more nornal rate. This will be interesting to follow at Mth. BUT---

I too anticipate fewer horse at Spa, but I hadn't thought the claimer from Mth would be the cause. Anyway, its interesting to try to look ahead. Thanks.

[Tom]

http://equibase.com/static/entry/BEL052910USA-EQB.html

WOW!!! What a weak card. 10 races. 81 entered
3 state breds
3 mdn claimers
5 total maiden races
1 allowance
1 stake...a G2 with a whopping 7 entered.
1 Alw/opt claimer( 25k)
Jeez...This is a saturday card?

Well, look at the bright side - it's a lot better than last SUNDAY's card! :rolleyes:

[ddog]

This is exactly why I love playing big fields in New York.


This is exactly why I love playing the little P.

ANYONE, look at those races and tell me the pickings are not easier there.

Obviously more sharp money is in the bigger pools, huh!

Now, don't take this as a recommendation and kill the payoffs. thx :D

[cj]

This is exactly why I love playing the little P.

ANYONE, look at those races and tell me the pickings are not easier there.

Obviously more sharp money is in the bigger pools, huh!

Now, don't take this as a recommendation and kill the payoffs. thx :D

I play almost every track some. The difference is I know that I can't bet very much at some and have limits at all.

[point given]

Last Saturday, Belmont and Hollywood handled $26 for every dollar of purse money given away. Monmouth handled $11.

Presque Isle just broke par at around $1.25.

Credit should be given to Steven Crist for this H/P metric from his blog.

http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/

[the little guy]

Credit should be given to Steven Crist for this H/P metric from his blog.

http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/


You didn't think I was clever enough to think of that on my own....did you? I obviously knew Steve was going to write more extensively about it.

[Cardus]

You didn't think I was clever enough to think of that on my own....did you? I obviously knew Steve was going to write more extensively about it.

Having complimented you on that angle, I now feel violated.

[castaway01]

In this case, the issue is mainly that the best races will be Monday when normally there is no Monday racing....nothing to see here.

[thespaah]

Well, look at the bright side - it's a lot better than last SUNDAY's card! :rolleyes:Yeah..
The first four races had 5, 4, 5 and 6 respectively go to post..Jeez..That's awful.

[grimm7]

Sunday's card is worst. Most entries in a single race is 8. My solution is I do not play Belmont and look for other options.

[point given]

You didn't think I was clever enough to think of that on my own....did you? I obviously knew Steve was going to write more extensively about it.

Obviously.:rolleyes: Poor Cardus felt violated, poor lad.

[Thomas Roulston]

Brad Thomas and Marc Siegelaub used to be big advocates of scrapping winter racing in New York altogether (I can remember when NYRA ended racing just before the winter solstice and did not resume it until March 1st, with the Paumunok Handicap as the traditional opening-day feature).

The inner dirt track has effectively destroyed turf racing at Aqueduct.

[NTamm1215]

Brad Thomas and Marc Siegelaub used to be big advocates of scrapping winter racing in New York altogether (I can remember when NYRA ended racing just before the winter solstice and did not resume it until March 1st, with the Paumunok Handicap as the traditional opening-day feature).

The inner dirt track has effectively destroyed turf racing at Aqueduct.

For the two months that they'd likely be able to have it?

NT

[Thomas Roulston]

For the two months that they'd likely be able to have it?

NT


But what if they brought back the summer meeting at Aqueduct? Prior to 1978 I believe, they would go to Aqueduct right after the Belmont Stakes was run, and from there, go on to Saratoga. This also meant fewer grass races were taken off the turf, because with the two shorter spring/summer meetings they didn't have to worry as much about the grass getting chewed up if it was soft.

[cj]

Turned out to be a nice card for betting purposes. I guess if you are "pretty horsey" person and want all top class animals it wasn't your cup of tea. The average winner paid $13, and there were chalk winners, bomb winners, and mid price winners.

[the little guy]

Turned out to be a nice card for betting purposes. I guess if you are "pretty horsey" person and want all top class animals it wasn't your cup of tea. The average winner paid $13, and there were chalk winners, bomb winners, and mid price winners.


I crushed em.

[JustRalph]

even I made some money.......

Porkchop and Spa City made my day...............

[classhandicapper]

At a certain point this kind of nonsense grows tiresome. Monmouth Park got $50 million from the State of NJ for purses to run their current meet....how exactly should NYRA go about achieving that? Do you have the cash for us? If so, please feel free to PM me.

Otherwise......

The good news is that this kind of thing is not sustainable, but as I alluded to in another thread, the stupidity of government sometimes seems to have no end.

This may seem hard and cruel because what I am suggesting will eliminate a lot of jobs, but it's the reality.

IMO horse racing should NOT be subsidized in any way shape or form. It has to be consolidated so that the total betting pie gets spread among fewer tracks. Then each of the remaining tracks would become much more profitable (a lot of the costs are fixed so some of the handle that shifted from a closed track to the remaining ones would fall to the bottom line).

All these casinos that are keeping marginal and uneconomical tracks open are delaying the consolidation process and are actually hurting the industry even if they are saving jobs in the short term.

I understand the thinking. The politicians want to save jobs, the breeding industry, etc... so they take an good economic business (a casino) and use it to subsidize an uneconomic bad one (horse racing).

But this industry won't get healthy until it consolidates.

[thespaah]

The good news is that this kind of thing is not sustainable, but as I alluded to in another thread, the stupidity of government sometimes seems to have no end.

This may seem hard and cruel because what I am suggesting will eliminate a lot of jobs, but it's the reality.

IMO horse racing should NOT be subsidized in any way shape or form. It has to be consolidated so that the total betting pie gets spread among fewer tracks. Then each of the remaining tracks would become much more profitable (a lot of the costs are fixed so some of the handle that shifted from a closed track to the remaining ones would fall to the bottom line).

All these casinos that are keeping marginal and uneconomical tracks open are delaying the consolidation process and are actually hurting the industry even if they are saving jobs in the short term.

I understand the thinking. The politicians want to save jobs, the breeding industry, etc... so they take an good economic business (a casino) and use it to subsidize an uneconomic bad one (horse racing).

But this industry won't get healthy until it consolidates.
It's called additon by subtraction.
Too many tracks operating simultaneously in close geographic proximity to each other.
There is a need for correction. Yes, jobs will disappear. However ,this is not about jobs. This is about the survival of an industry.
The needs of the many who depend on thoroughbred racing to make a living outweigh the needs of the few who will be forced to find other careers..

[philcski]

At a certain point this kind of nonsense grows tiresome. Monmouth Park got $50 million from the State of NJ for purses to run their current meet....how exactly should NYRA go about achieving that? Do you have the cash for us? If so, please feel free to PM me.

Otherwise......

No they didn't.

All these casinos that are keeping marginal and uneconomical tracks open are delaying the consolidation process and are actually hurting the industry even if they are saving jobs in the short term.

I understand the thinking. The politicians want to save jobs, the breeding industry, etc... so they take an good economic business (a casino) and use it to subsidize an uneconomic bad one (horse racing).

But this industry won't get healthy until it consolidates.

I agree with you on this.

[Valuist]

All evidence to the contrary.

I pick my spots and there are lots of days I forego the races for other pursuits - sports, beach, gardening. It seems a lot of participants here crave daily action and I think it would be good for them to give it a rest once in a while.

Better results come from focus and a clear head.

I think a card would have to be REALLY, REALLY bad to take gardening over the track. Maybe 5 horse fields of NW2 lifetime claimers running over synthetic.
Come to think of it, I think I just described racing in the golden state. Better find a hoe.....