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ArlJim78
05-24-2010, 07:36 PM
Oh yeah thats right. A bill is being introduced to do just that (http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2010/05/24/lawmaker-introduces-b-union-pension-bailout/).
__________________________________________________ __

A Democratic senator is introducing legislation for a bailout of troubled union pension funds. If passed, the bill could put another $165 billion in liabilities on the shoulders of American taxpayers.
The bill, which would put the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation behind struggling pensions for union workers, is being introduced by Senator Bob Casey, (D-Pa.), who says it will save jobs and help people.

As FOX Business Network’s Gerri Willis reported Monday, these pensions are in bad shape; as of 2006, well before the market dropped and recession began, only 6% of these funds were doing well.

Although right now taxpayers could possibly be on the hook for $165 billion, the liability could essentially be unlimited because these pensions have to be paid out until the workers die.

It’s hard to say at the moment what the chances are that the bill will pass. A hearing is scheduled Thursday, which will give the public a sense of where political leaders sit on the topic, said Willis.

Just last week President Obama said there would be no more bailouts.
__________________________________________________ ________
Sorry, unions aren't too big to fail. Everyone could see that these plans were being mismanged for years. Like BP, they created this mess, they will pay to clean it up. No taking from the treasury for your lavish benefits while most taxpayers have no golden pensions to look forward to.

boxcar
05-24-2010, 07:51 PM
I wonder how a pension bailout would save jobs???

Boxcar

GaryG
05-24-2010, 08:11 PM
The Teamsters pension fund was what Jimmy Hoffa let the mob use to build Vegas. Some thanks he got....

prospector
05-24-2010, 08:30 PM
unions are part of the reason this country is screwed up...don't save any union...ban them:jump:

LottaKash
05-24-2010, 08:43 PM
Sure, why the hell not ?....

Obammy, tell your dudes to fire up those presses again, we need some more of that "out of thin air kash"....

best,

mostpost
05-24-2010, 09:19 PM
You guys are worse than Pavlov's dogs. Every time you hear the word union, you start salivating. You obviously know nothing about the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation.
In the first place the PBGC already guarantees the pensions of 44 million Americans who are covered under company pension plans. This would add the pensions run by the unions to these guarantees.
Here is something else you are not well informed on. Read the following carefully. It is from the PBGC website. I have bolded the pertinent part.

Welcome To PBGC PBGC is a federal corporation created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974. It currently protects the pensions of more than 44 million American workers and retirees in more than 29,000 private single-employer and multiemployer defined benefit pension plans. PBGC receives no funds from general tax revenues. Operations are financed by insurance premiums set by Congress and paid by sponsors of defined benefit plans, investment income, assets from pension plans trusteed by PBGC, and recoveries from the companies formerly responsible for the plans.

So, what Sen. Casey wants to do is provide union pension funds with the same service already provided to corporate pension funds. At no cost to the taxpayers.

JustRalph
05-24-2010, 09:41 PM
You guys are worse than Pavlov's dogs. Every time you hear the word union, you start salivating. You obviously know nothing about the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation.
In the first place the PBGC already guarantees the pensions of 44 million Americans who are covered under company pension plans. This would add the pensions run by the unions to these guarantees.
Here is something else you are not well informed on. Read the following carefully. It is from the PBGC website. I have bolded the pertinent part.

.

So, what Sen. Casey wants to do is provide union pension funds with the same service already provided to corporate pension funds. At no cost to the taxpayers.

Wrong.......... ~~~!!! The new plan takes those pensions and makes them whole! The PBGC is only on the hook for as little as 25% of the pensions......depending on the total payout............

This new bailout would fund them totally.....from what I have heard on the radio. That is a huge difference.

The PBGC is on the hook for only $54,000 a year as of 2009, and many of the Union Pensions that are out there now.......are for much more.

From Wiki:
Maximum guaranteed benefit

The maximum pension benefit guaranteed by PBGC is set by law and adjusted yearly. For plans that end in 2009, workers who retire at age 65 can receive up to $4,500.00 per month (or $54,000 per year) under PBGC's insurance program for single-employer plans.[8]
Benefit payments starting at ages other than 65 are adjusted actuarially, which means the maximum guaranteed benefit is lower for those who retire early or when there is a benefit for a survivor. Likewise, the maximum guaranteed benefit is higher for those who retire after age 65. Additionally, the PBGC will not fully guarantee benefit improvements that were adopted within the five-year period prior to a plan's termination or benefits that are not payable over a retiree's lifetime.
For the multiemployer plans, the amount guaranteed is based on years of service. For plans that terminate after December 21, 2000, the PBGC insures 100 percent of the first $11 monthly payment per year of service and 75 percent of the next $33 monthly payment per year of service. For example, if a participant works 20 years in a plan that promises $19 per month per year of service, the PBGC guarantee would be $340 per month.[9]
Multiemployer plans that terminated after 1980 but before December 21, 2000, had a maximum guarantee limit of 100 percent of the first $5 of the monthly benefit accrual rate and 75 percent of the next $15.

Tom
05-24-2010, 10:15 PM
At no cost to the taxpayers.

Oh man, and you buy that? :D
Wow.

mostpost
05-24-2010, 10:24 PM
Oh man, and you buy that? :D
Wow.



Did you read the information I provided from the PBGC website? Here it is again.
Welcome To PBGC PBGC is a federal corporation created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974. It currently protects the pensions of more than 44 million American workers and retirees in more than 29,000 private single-employer and multiemployer defined benefit pension plans. PBGC receives no funds from general tax revenues. Operations are financed by insurance premiums set by Congress and paid by sponsors of defined benefit plans, investment income, assets from pension plans trusteed by PBGC, and recoveries from the companies formerly responsible for the plans

That part about "PBGC receives no funds from general tax revenues" is still in there.

Tom
05-24-2010, 10:28 PM
Oh man, and you buy that? :D
Wow.

RaceBookJoe
05-24-2010, 10:30 PM
Oh man, and you buy that? :D
Wow.


He buys it as fast as we should buy houses next door to him...in Fantasyland. rbj

mostpost
05-24-2010, 10:41 PM
This new bailout would fund them totally.....from what I have heard on the radio. That is a huge difference.

What you hear on the radio isn't always true. It is usually wrong. On the other hand I am unable to find the bill on line, so I can't absolutely say you are wrong.
My question would be; if you wish to "Bailout" union pension funds using taxpayer money why would you do so using a mechanism (PBGC) which does not use taxpayer funds?

boxcar
05-24-2010, 10:48 PM
What you hear on the radio isn't always true. It is usually wrong. On the other hand I am unable to find the bill on line, so I can't absolutely say you are wrong.
My question would be; if you wish to "Bailout" union pension funds using taxpayer money why would you do so using a mechanism (PBGC) which does not use taxpayer funds?

Maybe the "bailout" bill is going to change all that? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Boxcar

delayjf
05-25-2010, 09:24 AM
Operations are financed by insurance premiums set by Congress and paid by sponsors of defined benefit plans, investment income, assets from pension plans trusteed by PBGC, and recoveries from the companies formerly responsible for the plans

Who would be the sponsors of City / State pensions? The Taxpayers perhaps?

HUSKER55
05-25-2010, 10:50 AM
If the unions are already covered then why the act of congress for a bailout?


If it is not needed then it is just more greed.

boxcar
05-25-2010, 10:55 AM
If the unions are already covered then why the act of congress for a bailout?


If it is not needed then it is just more greed.

BINGO! :ThmbUp:

Boxcar

Ocala Mike
05-25-2010, 12:16 PM
unions are part of the reason this country is screwed up...don't save any union...ban them:jump:


Brilliant suggestion. We should bring back the 80-hour work week, repeal all laws about workplace safety, and bring back child labor too. Oh, yes, while we're at it, ban women and poor men from voting and might as well re-examine why slavery was ever outlawed.

We should also make ignorance a crime punishable by jail time; some of you people would be lifers.


Ocala Mike :rolleyes: :5: :10:

BenDiesel26
05-25-2010, 12:24 PM
We should bring back the 80-hour work week, repeal all laws about workplace safety, and bring back child labor too. Oh, yes, while we're at it, ban women and poor men from voting and might as well re-examine why slavery was ever outlawed.

Unions such as the ones Obama works for by his own admission (SEIU) have nothing to do with this anymore. They are just like greedy corporations, and are looking for taxpayer bailouts to pay for promises they couldn't keep. It's their own fault. "Workers of the world unite." They are influential in politics as well. The SEIU spent $60 million on Obama's campaign (They owe Bank of America of 90 million, which is why Andy Stern is constantly at the White House lobbying for stuff like this).

Also, exaggerate much? Or are you from an alternate universe over 100 years old?

ArlJim78
05-25-2010, 12:34 PM
private sector unions have been disappearing all on their own for years, because they kill off the companies they work for. that is why they have infested the public sector so strongly, and are pushing for government takeover of various industries like healthcare. Once the government is involved there is no competitive element anymore, and life is good and the increases are guaranteed until the cows come home. that is until they bankrupt the government which is also within their near term scope.

bigmack
05-25-2010, 12:37 PM
Brilliant suggestion. We should bring back the 80-hour work week, repeal all laws about workplace safety, and bring back child labor too. Oh, yes, while we're at it, ban women and poor men from voting and might as well re-examine why slavery was ever outlawed.

We should also make ignorance a crime punishable by jail time; some of you people would be lifers.
Damn straight, Skippy. Unions are only for good. They help the little guy. Anyone who criticizes unions are racist, against womens rights and poor people. Anyone against unions are ignorant jerks that deserve jail time.

Gosh Mikey, you're my hero. :rolleyes:

ArlJim78
05-25-2010, 12:40 PM
Also, exaggerate much? Or are you from an alternate universe over 100 years old?
no kidding, mention that you're not for bailing out union pensions, and they try to equate that to bringing back slavery or eliminating the right for women to vote?:confused:

Tom
05-25-2010, 12:50 PM
Gosh Mikey, you're my hero. :rolleyes:

By gosh, Mack, what we need here are PA OT trading cards!
The light just went on........

boxcar
05-25-2010, 12:53 PM
Brilliant suggestion. We should bring back the 80-hour work week, repeal all laws about workplace safety, and bring back child labor too. Oh, yes, while we're at it, ban women and poor men from voting and might as well re-examine why slavery was ever outlawed.

We should also make ignorance a crime punishable by jail time; some of you people would be lifers.


Ocala Mike :rolleyes: :5: :10:

Been there, done that. Unions have outlived their useful purpose. Now, it's time to put them down and relive our miseries. You're stuck in the past. It's time to Move On.

Boxcar

Ocala Mike
05-25-2010, 01:00 PM
You're stuck in the past. It's time to Move On.

Boxcar


Pot calling the kettle black? I'm not the one saying "I want my country back"!
Boxcar, didn't know you were into Move On.

http://www.moveon.org


Ocala Mike

Ocala Mike
05-25-2010, 01:20 PM
There are some families of dead coal miners who might want to "engage" some of you who think unions are no longer relevant.

http://chroniclecareers.com/blogPost/Who-Needs-Pesky-Unions-/22351/


Ocala Mike

boxcar
05-25-2010, 01:42 PM
Pot calling the kettle black? I'm not the one saying "I want my country back"!
Boxcar, didn't know you were into Move On.

http://www.moveon.org


Ocala Mike

I haven't said that either. But it would be nice to go back to the Law of the Land (a/k/a U.S. Constitution). In that sense and to the degree we ever do, we'll get our individual liberties back, too!

Boxcar

boxcar
05-25-2010, 01:50 PM
There are some families of dead coal miners who might want to "engage" some of you who think unions are no longer relevant.

http://chroniclecareers.com/blogPost/Who-Needs-Pesky-Unions-/22351/


Ocala Mike

So, let me see if I have this right: The "lack of union coverage" in a highly hazardous work environment is the reason "some families of the dead" want more of the unions who failed them in the first place!? Why in the world would anyone in their right mind want a failed institution to protect their loved ones!? :bang: :bang:

Also, was the mine up to federal standards?

This is the same ol' saw the government plays with our education system. The kids keep on failing and it's all our fault because we have failed to throw enough money at it. So, over all these decades we've been laid this huge guilt trip upon us by Big Gov, so we keep throwing good money after bad and the kids still aren't any smarter!

Boxcar

JustRalph
05-25-2010, 02:15 PM
There are some families of dead coal miners who might want to "engage" some of you who think unions are no longer relevant.

http://chroniclecareers.com/blogPost/Who-Needs-Pesky-Unions-/22351/


Ocala Mike

If you knew what a piece of crap the Coal Miner's Union is......... :bang:

I have a brother who was a member for years....he hated them......

Tom
05-25-2010, 02:42 PM
There are some families of dead coal miners who might want to "engage" some of you who think unions are no longer relevant.

http://chroniclecareers.com/blogPost/Who-Needs-Pesky-Unions-/22351/


Ocala Mike

Are there not mining safety laws - many of which have been violated in recent cave ins?

Sounds like the government let them down as well.

BlueShoe
05-25-2010, 04:02 PM
Unions may have been useful a century ago, but now it is a case of the tail wagging the dog. With rare exceptions, union officials have always been far left. The Communist Party (CPUSA) have always heavily infiltrated and controlled unions, with the unions making only token efforts to keep them out. Unions instill the same mindset and sense of complacency and entitlement that civil service does, ie, "You cant do anything to me, Im in the union". For just one example that all of us on this forum can relate to, consider this; virtually all racetrack workers in service positions are heavily unionized, and we all know what great jobs they do and fine customer service patrons get on their track visits, dont we?

prospector
05-25-2010, 04:55 PM
Brilliant suggestion. We should bring back the 80-hour work week, repeal all laws about workplace safety, and bring back child labor too. Oh, yes, while we're at it, ban women and poor men from voting and might as well re-examine why slavery was ever outlawed.

We should also make ignorance a crime punishable by jail time; some of you people would be lifers.


Ocala Mike :rolleyes: :5: :10:
the good old days when you could afford to buy items..before the unions went nuts..i've always liked the property owners only vote...if ignrance was a crime, what would we do with congress?:)

Ocala Mike
05-25-2010, 04:56 PM
BlueShoe, do you really feel comfortable with those sweeping generalizations? Do you think all those unionized police and firemen (NYPD, FDNY, and PONYA) were all about complacency and entitlement when they had 110 stories of World Trade Center crush them to death on 9/11?

:bang:


Ocala Mike

BlueShoe
05-25-2010, 06:41 PM
BlueShoe, do you really feel comfortable with those sweeping generalizations?
Was not referring to public safety forces, but to US industry. For example, look at the wonderful job the unions did to the auto industry. While bad management certainly played a part, the UAW helped ruin an industry in which the US was dominent for decades. Ever increasing wage and benefit demands coupled with shoddy quality sent Detroit into a tailspin starting in the 70's from which we still have not recovered from.

bigmack
05-25-2010, 06:53 PM
BlueShoe, do you really feel comfortable with those sweeping generalizations?
In one thread about unions you've used slavery, dead coal miners, crushed cops, crushed fireman, child labor & banning 'poor men' & women from voting & he's the one using sweeping generalizations?

You're my hero, Mikey. :ThmbUp:

ddog
05-25-2010, 07:09 PM
Public sector unions are insane money pits and should be outlawed.

Private sector unions, once gone crazy will put themselves out of business so they are fine by me.

Public "service" unions contain some of the biggest parasites and grifters on the face of the earth and are bankrupting many cities and will continue to until they are shutdown.

That they can EXTORT taxpayers is a joke! :ThmbDown:

skate
05-25-2010, 09:46 PM
In one thread about unions you've used slavery, dead coal miners, crushed cops, crushed fireman, child labor & banning 'poor men' & women from voting & he's the one using sweeping generalizations?

You're my hero, Mikey. :ThmbUp:

Wait just a dang... not one empty beer can? just one...

skate
05-25-2010, 09:50 PM
Public sector unions are insane money pits and should be outlawed.

Private sector unions, once gone crazy will put themselves out of business so they are fine by me.

Public "service" unions contain some of the biggest parasites and grifters on the face of the earth and are bankrupting many cities and will continue to until they are shutdown.

That they can EXTORT taxpayers is a joke! :ThmbDown:


OH ohoh now i see, lookey here , we just located the hole empty keg...

Hey, what gives, is it that you need someone to call you Stupid?

Valuist
05-25-2010, 10:12 PM
There are some families of dead coal miners who might want to "engage" some of you who think unions are no longer relevant.

http://chroniclecareers.com/blogPost/Who-Needs-Pesky-Unions-/22351/


Ocala Mike

I missed the fact that these people had guns pointed at their heads FORCING them to become coal miners. Kind of like the jockeys who complain that their job has risks....

mostpost
05-25-2010, 11:03 PM
Here is someone else's opinion on this bill. He is in favor of it and thinks the folks at Fox are weinies. It's in the segment on Megyn Kelly.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann#37346342
Who is this socialist? I don't remember his name, but he is a Republican congressman from Ohio. Listen to him; he will tell you that everything you think about this bill is wrong. As usual.

delayjf
05-26-2010, 12:21 AM
Well the good Congressman from Ohio only confirmed what is being discussed here - tax payer dollars will be propping up underfunded union pensions. I guess because the money is spread out over 5 years, taxpayers are supposed to fell better about the whole thing.

I'm not familiar with this Congressman, perhaps JustRalph can elaborate. But I'm not surprized that anyone R or D, coming from a heavy Union state like Ohio, would support this legislation.

BUT like the old saying goes, "don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining"

eastie
05-26-2010, 12:35 AM
unions are part of the reason this country is screwed up...don't save any union...ban them:jump:

why don't you take a long walk off a short pier ?


another genius living in the desert who's been out in the sun too long.

eastie
05-26-2010, 12:45 AM
OH ohoh now i see, lookey here , we just located the hole empty keg...

Hey, what gives, is it that you need someone to call you Stupid?

no i just think he is one of those haters....every post he makes is negative. Without unions you can do a great job for 20 years, never miss a day of work, and get a new boos and get canned a week later, with no recourse, just cause he doesn't like italians or something as stupid as that. he must own a sweatshop somewhere.

bigmack
05-26-2010, 12:46 AM
why don't you take a long walk off a short pier ?
As a teamster, any comment on that being the possible fate of Mr. Jimmy Hoffa?


:D

ElKabong
05-26-2010, 01:00 AM
no i just think he is one of those haters....every post he makes is negative. Without unions you can do a great job for 20 years, never miss a day of work, and get a new boos and get canned a week later, with no recourse, just cause he doesn't like italians or something as stupid as that. he must own a sweatshop somewhere.

Or, someone could be a worthless POS union member who sabotages turbine fans on an assy line, so he can keep more QC's on the payroll (at the behest of a "union brother"). Ya, that shit's never happened before in front of me. :rolleyes:

I've SEEN too many instances where unions dearly cost the company they work for. Bust 'em. The sooner the better.

mostpost
05-26-2010, 01:14 AM
Well the good Congressman from Ohio only confirmed what is being discussed here - tax payer dollars will be propping up underfunded union pensions. I guess because the money is spread out over 5 years, taxpayers are supposed to fell better about the whole thing.

I'm not familiar with this Congressman, perhaps JustRalph can elaborate. But I'm not surprized that anyone R or D, coming from a heavy Union state like Ohio, would support this legislation.

BUT like the old saying goes, "don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining"
What is being discussed here is not what is in the bill.
111TH CONGRESS
1ST SESSION
H. R. 3936
To amend the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 and the
Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to allow time for pensions to fund
benefit obligations in light of economic circumstances in the financial
markets of 2008, and for other purposes.

HR 3936 amends ERISA to allow a greater funding window for pensions. It gives companies more time to meet their obligations. It does not relieve them of those obligations.

The reason there are union backed pension funds is because companies kept defaulting on their obligation to their workers. Industry wide pension plans were set up so workers would have a pension even if the company they worked for went under.

mostpost
05-26-2010, 01:19 AM
Or, someone could be a worthless POS union member who sabotages turbine fans on an assy line, so he can keep more QC's on the payroll (at the behest of a "union brother"). Ya, that shit's never happened before in front of me. :rolleyes:

I've SEEN too many instances where unions dearly cost the company they work for. Bust 'em. The sooner the better.
And I've seen too many instances of someone making unfounded accusations without the slightest proof. In other words, I question the truthfulness of your statement.

plainolebill
05-26-2010, 03:21 AM
I missed the fact that these people had guns pointed at their heads FORCING them to become coal miners. Kind of like the jockeys who complain that their job has risks....

WTF? Count your blessings that you don't have to earn a living in that environment.

Tom
05-26-2010, 07:42 AM
no i just think he is one of those haters....every post he makes is negative. Without unions you can do a great job for 20 years, never miss a day of work, and get a new boos and get canned a week later, with no recourse, just cause he doesn't like italians or something as stupid as that. he must own a sweatshop somewhere.

The majority of workers, not unionized, manage.
Maybe the part about doing a good job and making yourself valuable to your employer was lost in the contract.

Valuist
05-26-2010, 08:04 AM
WTF? Count your blessings that you don't have to earn a living in that environment.

Neither did they. The coal miners and jockeys I referenced all made the CHOICE to do that for a living. They wanted the money but risks come with it.

eastie
05-26-2010, 08:43 AM
The majority of workers, not unionized, manage.
Maybe the part about doing a good job and making yourself valuable to your employer was lost in the contract.


Tell that to some guy who just got laid off with 19 years on the job, so that the company wouldn't have to contribute to his pension if he worked another year.

GaryG
05-26-2010, 08:51 AM
Has anyone seen the air traffic controllers from the Reagan years lately? Just when you think you are indispensable.....you ain't. Wherever they are, they got what they deserved. Several years back the ticket sellers at Hollywood Park went on strike because they wanted more money. These guys are nothing but bank tellers. Replaced them with some people from off the street and didn't miss a beat.

delayjf
05-26-2010, 09:31 AM
HR 3936 amends ERISA to allow a greater funding window for pensions. It gives companies more time to meet their obligations. It does not relieve them of those obligations.

I will be interested in seeing Megan's response to the Congressman and a further evaluation of the bill.

In CA, Unions are trying to pass legislation preventing any City, County or Municipality from filing for bankrupcy without State approval first. I'm wondering if this bill does the same thing.

ddog
05-26-2010, 12:08 PM
no i just think he is one of those haters....every post he makes is negative. Without unions you can do a great job for 20 years, never miss a day of work, and get a new boos and get canned a week later, with no recourse, just cause he doesn't like italians or something as stupid as that. he must own a sweatshop somewhere.



eastie


I said in the post that I had no issue with PRIVATE UNIONS , that the reason was if they got too crazy that they would bring about their own demise via the death of the golden goose. There is no hate for 'talians in that, it's just the hard truth of the world.

I maintain that PUBLIC sector unions have become a POLITICIAN'S WET DREAM and a dumping ground in many cases for the worst of society put there as election spoils and/or vote buying using TAX DOLLARS extorted at the threat of public safety.


You may not want to hear it but that's my opinion and I have seen things in the past 40 years to back that up.


I would say I have supported PRIVATE unions in the past and in the post you replied to, I think that's a positive on your side of the fence.

However, when times/finances change then the gvt and the PUBLIC SERVICE UNIONS have to cut back. They feel they are entitled to a gold plated contract when the times call for silver.

Simple as that.

ddog
05-26-2010, 12:16 PM
OH ohoh now i see, lookey here , we just located the hole empty keg...

Hey, what gives, is it that you need someone to call you Stupid?



skatey enters stage left to receive his "perfect attendance" plaque...exits prancing stage right.............

Uncle Milty rises and says "Make labor of any kind more expensive and the number of jobs of that kind will be fewer. Make carpenters more expensive, and fewer houses....will be built (and the ones that are will) use materials and methods requiring less carpentry. Raise the wages of airline pilots (and) there will be fewer jobs for them (because) air travel will (cost more and) fewer people will fly."

In other words according to YOUR sainted Uncle Milty -- NO UNIONS!!!!!!


skatey from off stage right ..... but but but welp welp welp and and and ......

where is that sweaty cabbage smelling hand to the forehead slap icon anyway?

welp??


p.s. I have no idea what the hell you were talking about as the lead in , but that's par for your twisted course.

Steve 'StatMan'
05-26-2010, 01:45 PM
I didn't want to read through 4 pages of Union/AntiUnion arguing, but I have to ask this question. Aren't the problems that the federal pension protection system is used for is to protect pensions when the companies the people work for mess up or screw them over? Aren't these union pension plans that are in trouble managed by the union management's people and not the corparate management people? Who is really the ones responsible here? And of course, the workers do have a choice in what funds their pension investments are made in, right? I've kept a rather conservative investiment option in my retirement accounts, and they've dipped less that the more riskier plans, and recovered well. Again, who is really to blame or at fault for these investments? Agony isn't good, but neither is an overrelyance on having everyone else pay to make people whole again. Just hurts plenty of people who tried to make better, or at least not-as-disappointing decisions.

lsbets
05-26-2010, 02:34 PM
p.s. I have no idea what the hell you were talking about as the lead in ,

Does anyone else notice the irony here?

prospector
05-26-2010, 05:40 PM
why don't you take a long walk off a short pier ?


another genius living in the desert who's been out in the sun too long.
if thats a challenge tough guy..i live in bullhead city...i'm easy to find..make sure your mouth doesn't take long walk off a short pier..

ElKabong
05-26-2010, 08:43 PM
And I've seen too many instances of someone making unfounded accusations without the slightest proof. In other words, I question the truthfulness of your statement.

since you sorted mail for a living, and made that your life's work and didn't move along to greater things, you wouldn't be able to know the truth if it hit you in the face. You're not smart enough to absorb anything beyond the alphabet, Cliffy.

Fact, not opinion.

If you wish to comment on sorting mail, I'll listen if that subject ever interests me. Other than that, it's all over your head.

ElKabong
05-26-2010, 08:48 PM
Has anyone seen the air traffic controllers from the Reagan years lately? Just when you think you are indispensable.....you ain't. .

This.

kenwoodall2
05-26-2010, 09:02 PM
"“Multi-employer plans face unique challenges that are overburdening pension plans and the bottom lines of companies,” Casey said. “My legislation would help correct these problems to protect the pensions of workers and**** unburden companies stuck paying a crippling expense that threatens its existence and the jobs of its employees.”

Casey said the bill could cost the federal government between ****$8 billion and $10 billion."
LOL!!

ElKabong
05-26-2010, 09:14 PM
And I've seen too many instances of someone making unfounded accusations without the slightest proof. In other words, I question the truthfulness of your statement.

Believe this then, mail sorter.

Bust the ****ing unions. The sooner the better.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125229157&ps=rs

In the mid-1980s, Toyota took over the Fremont plant, one of GM’s worst, a factory known for sex, drugs and defective vehicles. And as part of an historic joint venture, Toyota turned the plant into one of GM’s best, practically overnight.


Madrid said he drank when he was mounting tires. "I'd bring a thermos of screwdrivers with me."

And it wasn't just drinking and drugs, Madrid said. People would have sex at the plant, too. If you're wondering how people kept their jobs, here's why: Under the union contract workers practically had to commit fraud to get fired.

Some workers hated management so much, they sabotaged the vehicles.
They put Coke bottles inside the door panels so they would rattle and annoy customers. Absenteeism was rampant.

Billy Haggerty worked in hood and fender assembly. He said so few workers showed up some mornings, managers didn't have enough able bodies to start the line: They would “ go right across the street to the bar, grab people out of there and bring them in," Haggerty recalled.

ArlJim78
05-26-2010, 09:57 PM
Let's not forget the unions like SEIU and their lawbreaking mob mentality like what happened this past weekend. They broke the law, invaded the privacy of private citizens, terrorized their families, and disturbed the entire neighborhood with a bullhorn and their angry screaming.
Of course Fox is the only one covering it. If a tea party protest ever did anything like this can you imagine the reaction? Of course this is a state approved mob and when Obama gives orders like punch back twice as hard, the SEIU does it.


k80hI_hlzlE

ElKabong
05-26-2010, 10:45 PM
Thanks for posting that video, Jim. Megan ripped the balls of both of them, didn't offer to give 'em back either.

Any decent citizen would denounce what the SEIU punks did in that vid w/ a 14yo kid in the house. Nice to see where the union due$ are being spent.

unions..What a sham.

.

mostpost
05-26-2010, 11:22 PM
Believe this then, mail sorter.

Bust the ****ing unions. The sooner the better.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125229157&ps=rs

In the mid-1980s, Toyota took over the Fremont plant, one of GM’s worst, a factory known for sex, drugs and defective vehicles. And as part of an historic joint venture, Toyota turned the plant into one of GM’s best, practically overnight.


Madrid said he drank when he was mounting tires. "I'd bring a thermos of screwdrivers with me."

And it wasn't just drinking and drugs, Madrid said. People would have sex at the plant, too. If you're wondering how people kept their jobs, here's why: Under the union contract workers practically had to commit fraud to get fired.

Some workers hated management so much, they sabotaged the vehicles.
They put Coke bottles inside the door panels so they would rattle and annoy customers. Absenteeism was rampant.

Billy Haggerty worked in hood and fender assembly. He said so few workers showed up some mornings, managers didn't have enough able bodies to start the line: They would “ go right across the street to the bar, grab people out of there and bring them in," Haggerty recalled.
This story is not about what you think it's about. True does deal with worker misbehavior but it is about a lot more.
Some workers hated management so much, they sabotaged the vehicles. Why did workers hate management? One answer is found later in the story.
At the old GM plant in Fremont, Calif., the system had been totally different and there was one cardinal rule that everyone knew: the assembly line could never stop.

"You just didn't see the line stop," Madrid said. "I saw a guy fall in the pit and they didn't stop the line."

Lee, the supervisor who oversaw the plant summed it up this way: "You saw a problem, you stopped that line: you were fired."
I don't know what "the pit" is. I assume that it is an area below the assembly line. Most likely filled with moving parts. My guess is falling in "the pit" is not something one would want to do. Yet when a worker fell in the pit, management did not even stop the line.

The NPR story talks about drinking on the line. Do you know what an enabler is? The management of the Fremont plant were enablers.
"There was a lot of booze on the line," he said. "And as long you did your job they really didn't care."
It was pointed out that the union contract made it difficult to fire people.
Under the union contract workers practically had to commit fraud to get fired.
Remember contracts are negotiated by two parties. The problem was GM, in its arrogance, thought they would be kings of the Auto world forever and could afford any contract.

Toyota took over this disfunctional GM plant and turned it around. You are going to say that Toyota plants are not unionized and the workers fell in line because they were afraid of being terminated. You are 100% wrong. The workers at the Fremont plant changed because they were treated like human beings. They were trusted to take responsibility. They were allowed to make suggestions and solve problems.

GM failed to build on the success of the Fremont plant. You saw this line:
In some plants, the union saw its traditions threatened by Toyota’s team concept and refused to change.
and saw nothing else. "It's the unions fault. They refused to change."
And, in part, it was. But there is more to it.
Bera said he and the other commandos were waiting to be deployed elsewhere, but the company didn't seem to know what to do with them.

"Instead of coming back to the 16 of us and saying, 'There's some secret sauce here, what is it? How can we use it to our advantage?' No one ever asked us that question,"
and:
Geoff Weller's job was to help convert GM, factory by factory. But GM was a sprawling, highly decentralized company and plant managers were king.

Weller said some managers were responsive. Others weren't — like the one who asked him to leave his factory after Weller made his presentation about the NUMMI system.

So we can see that the demise of GM was caused by an inability to see the future and an unwillingness to change to meet that future. These faults lie with both unions and management, but it was management who was most in a position to initiate changes and they resisted doing so as much and probably more than the unions.

Tom
05-26-2010, 11:35 PM
That is Grimm.
Like the fairy tale.

mostpost
05-26-2010, 11:51 PM
Or, someone could be a worthless POS union member who sabotages turbine fans on an assy line, so he can keep more QC's on the payroll (at the behest of a "union brother"). Ya, that shit's never happened before in front of me. :rolleyes:

I've SEEN too many instances where unions dearly cost the company they work for. Bust 'em. The sooner the better.
Back to this. You deserve to know why I think this is untrue. Actually you don't deserve any such thing, but I will do it anyway.
First of all, you saw this happen.Did you report it? The main thing tho, is, it doesn't make sense. If you have a quality control department, they are going to check the product coming off the assembly line anyway. Defective product is going to be rejected. If your quality control department checks a certain % of the items coming off the line then it may be that an increase in defects would cause them to increase that percentage. But that would be temporary until they discovered the cause of the defect. It seems to me that it would be easy to determine if the defect originated in the manufacturing process or via sabatoge.
And there goes our union man's job.

There is one telling line in your post:
Ya, that shit's never happened before in front of me. :rolleyes:
That line I believe.

ElKabong
05-26-2010, 11:54 PM
posty,

Finally we agree on something....the way an employee is treated determines a lot.

I've never been treated badly on a job. Any job. From age 16 to 54, I've always been treated with respect and gave it back along with an honest days work. No brown nosing, just do my work and try to save the company money (which is my purpose/ job description).

I've seen co workers get treated like children. They were always malcontents, incompetents, and just plain lazy. They got what they deserved. I've had "bad" bosses (2) but always kept in mind that things change and they'd go elsewhere or be fired. That's the way the world works.

As for the pit, I saw where union workers drank on the job. First thought was that c/h had somethingto do with it.....the fact ANYONE drinks on the job, an assy line of all places, tells me they aren't very bright. Doesn't matter if mgmnt ok's it or not.

In fact, that falls in the category of monkey see, monkey do...someone else drinks at work, therefore i can too. Immature, unprofessional BS. Non union assy lines wouldn't allow it. You'd think even a union worker would know better than to drink on a Line.

ElKabong
05-27-2010, 12:09 AM
Back to this. You deserve to know why I think this is untrue. Actually you don't deserve any such thing, but I will do it anyway.
First of all, you saw this happen.Did you report it? The main thing tho, is, it doesn't make sense. If you have a quality control department, they are going to check the product coming off the assembly line anyway. .


And now a mail sorter is telling me how a Mfg assy line works & how a DPMO is calc'd, with a CCAR to follow. Delicious....

Step aside Claven, you don't know what you're talking about. If a QC dept is about to lose head count, the way to keep them on is to keep their queue shelf full & work orders passing thru. That's what happened.

As far as the reporting, it was done by an engineer. He went to a QAE, who reported it to the line supv.

This happened at one of our sources of supply. I was with our SQA, saw it happen with one of their engineers & a Sales Rep. We still buy product from this company, but the volume is way down. Too expensive. I found another source 4 miles from our bldg.

new source= A non-union shop :) ...They are a preferred SOS for Lockheed, we cut LT's and cost so my boss was pleased....but not as pleased as me :)

mostpost
05-27-2010, 12:56 AM
posty,

Finally we agree on something....the way an employee is treated determines a lot.

I've never been treated badly on a job. Any job. From age 16 to 54, I've always been treated with respect and gave it back along with an honest days work. No brown nosing, just do my work and try to save the company money (which is my purpose/ job description).

I've seen co workers get treated like children. They were always malcontents, incompetents, and just plain lazy. They got what they deserved. I've had "bad" bosses (2) but always kept in mind that things change and they'd go elsewhere or be fired. That's the way the world works.

As for the pit, I saw where union workers drank on the job. First thought was that c/h had somethingto do with it.....the fact ANYONE drinks on the job, an assy line of all places, tells me they aren't very bright. Doesn't matter if mgmnt ok's it or not.

In fact, that falls in the category of monkey see, monkey do...someone else drinks at work, therefore i can too. Immature, unprofessional BS. Non union assy lines wouldn't allow it. You'd think even a union worker would know better than to drink on a Line.
It's a two way street. In the Fremont case there was obvious bad behavior by the workers. Being drunk on an assembly line is not just stupid, it's dangerous. The danger is not just to the drunk. It's to all the employees.
But management also failed to live up to its responsibilities. Maybe it is (was?) nearly impossible to fire someone. It can be done. If a person has a problem perhaps you try to help him. Many companies have programs for such things.
Problems arise when people fail to respect one another. I know you think I'm this big union guy who complained about everything and was constantly filing grievances with the union. Not true at all. In 28+ years at the Post Office I filed one grievance. That was settled in my favor at step one. I was not one to say I am not doing that job because it isn't in my job description. And neither were any of the other union workers in my office. On the other hand management treated us fairly.

mostpost
05-27-2010, 01:14 AM
And now a mail sorter is telling me how a Mfg assy line works & how a DPMO is calc'd, with a CCAR to follow. Delicious....

Step aside Claven, you don't know what you're talking about. If a QC dept is about to lose head count, the way to keep them on is to keep their queue shelf full & work orders passing thru. That's what happened.

As far as the reporting, it was done by an engineer. He went to a QAE, who reported it to the line supv.

This happened at one of our sources of supply. I was with our SQA, saw it happen with one of their engineers & a Sales Rep. We still buy product from this company, but the volume is way down. Too expensive. I found another source 4 miles from our bldg.

new source= A non-union shop :) ...They are a preferred SOS for Lockheed, we cut LT's and cost so my boss was pleased....but not as pleased as me :)
First I collected the UBBM. Then I stamped the FOE, MLNA, ANK. Then I prepared the nixies and sent them to the SSC. You have no ideas what I'm talking about, do you. Well I have no idea what your d_ _ _ acronyms mean either.

I did not mean to imply that I was any kind of expert on manufacturing. (Although I did work at Motorola in Chicago as a young lad and did deal with the QC people) My objection is to you taking one incident and using it to malign an entire group. A person who would sabotage his company's product does not so it because he is a union member, he does it because he is a jerk.

BTW what happened to that employee? He certainly should have been fired.

bigmack
05-27-2010, 01:53 AM
Undeliverable Bulk Business Mail

Forwarding Order Expired

Moved left no address

Attempted Not Known

Shared Service Center

_________________

Defects per Million

Cost Change Action Request

Quality Assurance Evaluator

Supplier Quality Assurance

SOS???

mostpost
05-27-2010, 01:58 AM
Undeliverable Bulk Business Mail

Forwarding Order Expired

Moved left no address

Attempted Not Known

Shared Service Center

_________________

Defects per Million

Cost Change Action Request

Quality Assurance Evaluator

Supplier Quality Assurance

SOS???
Sectional service center unless they changed it after I retired.

SOS??? how about Source of Supply.

mostpost
05-27-2010, 01:59 AM
Undeliverable Bulk Business Mail

Forwarding Order Expired

Moved left no address

Attempted Not Known

Shared Service Center

_________________

Defects per Million

Cost Change Action Request

Quality Assurance Evaluator

Supplier Quality Assurance

SOS???
OK but what's a "nixie"

bigmack
05-27-2010, 02:06 AM
OK but what's a "nixie"
An undeliverable item. I would imagine oftentimes a fruitcake, ready for the Dead Letter Post Office.

(Insert Funeral March. Fade to postal blue)

cj's dad
05-27-2010, 02:10 PM
I've worked both union and non-union and the basic difference I found was having to pay union dues. No matter where, the premise was simple - show up on time, do your job and act professional.
Union contracts are two (2) party agreements.
The union officials that I was associated with at two shipyards, one copper refinery, and one chemical manufacturing plant would not and did not tolerate sabotage, drunks or fools. Each place tht I mentioned were dangerous places to work and no one put up with any bulls--t on the job. All were union. The USA - United Steelworkers of America and IUMSWA - Int'l Union of Marine and Shipbuilding Workers of America.

The employees mentioned in the Toyota article were managed by fools. No manager worth his paycheck would tolerate such BS. I have a difficult time with the overall validity of the article.

Have some unions outlived their usefullness ? probably.

I can tell you for a fact as a construction inspector, the skilled trades unions are not going away. They earn their way; the quality of their work proves that.

ElKabong
05-27-2010, 08:35 PM
CCAR= Cause & corrective action (report)

Look mosty, and anyone else, sabotage happens. You could probably google it and find a lot of instances. The problem is proving it. The person we saw, was had. The reason he did it we found out later.

In the plant i work at that would be the farthest thing from any Tech's mind. And as stated before, people are treated with respect.

Which can't be said of the USPS workplace. Not only do I hear it at LS, you can (again) google to your heart's desire. If you have enough morons working at the USPS then maybe some post offices that's the norm....treat employees like morons.

Gee, i can't imagine anyone treating you that way

eastie
05-27-2010, 10:48 PM
if thats a challenge tough guy..i live in bullhead city...i'm easy to find..make sure your mouth doesn't take long walk off a short pier..

Bullhead City Arizona.....

avg high * note it gets hotter than this. these are the average highs
may 97
june 107
july 112
august 110
september 103


and you live here ? like I said, you've been out in the sun too long. I guess Sam Kinison was wrong about us having "deserts in america, we just don't live in them"
If you'd like to join me at saratoga this august, I'll be there wed thru sat of alabama week. You'll need a sweatshirt and blanket though. It only gets up to about 85-90. Oh yeah, and maybe an icepack, if you catch my drift.

bigmack
05-27-2010, 11:06 PM
Oh yeah, and maybe an icepack, if you catch my drift.
There's that Teamster 'Can Do' attitude.

Go get 'em & bring your bat. :lol:

eastie
05-28-2010, 12:03 AM
I was thinking more like thumbwrestling...