rachel's connection's bob and weeve again

[bisket]

we're going to run in the foster er.... maybe or we'll be in the fleur de lis.... maybe. you know if they said a few weeks ago they would be in the foster zen would be there. its getting old that they can't committ to a race, but jackson is a better sportsman than other owners..... yeah he should run for president because he'd make one heckuva politishner

[johnhannibalsmith]

thi's s'hood bee 'n excit...ing thred.

[PaceAdvantage]

Without links to quotes or stories, this thread is useless.

And besides, Zenyatta isn't going to chase Rachel around, so to say she would have showed up in the Stephen Foster had Jess Jackson announced this weeks ago...well...just plain ridiculous.

You act as if horses still have to be transported by steam engine with the kind of lead time you seem to be requiring of Jess Jackson.

[Cardus]

Even with links to quotes or stories, this thread is useless.

And besides, Zenyatta isn't going to chase Rachel around, so to say she would have showed up in the Stephen Foster had Jess Jackson announced this weeks ago...well...just plain ridiculous.

You act as if horses still have to be transported by steam engine with the kind of lead time you seem to be requiring of Jess Jackson.

Better?

[ghostyapper]

I wouldn't be surprised to see them in the foster. They can't risk losing to the same sex again for the 3rd time in a row. If she runs in the foster and sets fast fractions with Battle Plan and fades they can hang their hat on her losing because of a rough trip against males.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's probably time to close this thread already...this whole thing is way beyond tiring at this point...the editorial department of the DRF wouldn't print the same letter to the editor WEEK after WEEK after WEEK.

No different here...

[ghostyapper]

It's probably time to close this thread already...this whole thing is way beyond tiring at this point...the editorial department of the DRF wouldn't print the same letter to the editor WEEK after WEEK after WEEK.

No different here...

We really haven't discussed rachel's next start much. You are quick to close any rachel thread but let critical zenyatta threads run on for days. Telling..

[Hedevar]

This thread was embarrassing from the start.

[sandpit]

Amen, close this so we can all move over and comment on the monthly TVG bashing thread :D

[PaceAdvantage]

We really haven't discussed rachel's next start much.
This thread is about Rachel's next start? Really? How can you tell?

[PaceAdvantage]

You are quick to close any rachel thread but let critical zenyatta threads run on for days. Telling..Any Rachel thread? Really? How many? You said ANY, correct?

More hyperbole from you...not unexpected.

How many critical Zenyatta THREADS are there right now? Are there MORE critical Zenyatta threads than CLOSED Rachel threads?

I only ask because you seem to be paying closer attention than me...

[ghostyapper]

Any Rachel thread? Really? How many? You said ANY, correct?

More hyperbole from you...not unexpected.

How many critical Zenyatta THREADS are there right now? Are there MORE critical Zenyatta threads than CLOSED Rachel threads?

I only ask because you seem to be paying closer attention than me...

Don't play dumb. Pretty much ANY zenyatta thread turns into a bunch of angry rachel fans taking shot after shot at her. This is all fine

Then when some critical rachel threads are opened they are closed or threatened right away. Just last night one was deleted by your other mod who tries to start more shit storms then anyone but deletes whenever someone else throws back.

But lets forget all that and try to have an intelligent discussion. Where do you think rachel's next start should be? What do you expect from her wherever she runs?

[PaceAdvantage]

...your other mod who tries to start more shit storms then anyone but deletes whenever someone else throws back.This is an out and out fabrication. If this were true, he wouldn't be a mod any longer...

He will delete responses that consist of nothing but an emoticon (his pet peeve, and something I agree with). Or responses that are completely off the topic.

But then again, that's what he is here for...

[PaceAdvantage]

Where do you think rachel's next start should be? What do you expect from her wherever she runs?Where? I have no idea. I expect her to run about the same as her last two...maybe a little better...it wasn't until her fourth start last year where she really took off in terms of figures...

[ghostyapper]

Where? I have no idea. I expect her to run about the same as her last two...maybe a little better...it wasn't until her fourth start last year where she really took off in terms of figures...

Are you really banking on the 4th start thing? She was a developing 3yo last year so obviously it's gonna be entirely different. Even affirmed (who has been brought up many times in regards to rachel) was back to his old self in his 3rd start as a 4yo. We have no idea but where do you think she SHOULD run?

[Dahoss9698]

we're going to run in the foster er.... maybe or we'll be in the fleur de lis.... maybe. you know if they said a few weeks ago they would be in the foster zen would be there. its getting old that they can't committ to a race, but jackson is a better sportsman than other owners..... yeah he should run for president because he'd make one heckuva politishner

totalli agreee wit evrithang u r sayin hear. who really nose where they r gunna go at this poynt. this hole thang is gettin olde.

[Cardus]

2 many highnukuns?

[Dahoss9698]

2 many highnukuns?

knot enuff

[WinterTriangle]

I actually didn't know posts were deleted here until somebody told me.

Since there are no placeholders, i.e. *message #139 deleted*

I'm gonna trust that, given some of the absurdly contentious topics that I've seen on here that deleting isn't done to silence anyone, but simply to reduce board "clutter" when too many emoticons are used, or when a topic that has run it's course and closed is magically *revived* by someone with an obsession to beat a dead horse. Or, of course, when a post puts the owners of the board under legal problems.

:)

So far, I haven't seen any conversation deleted just based on sentiment.

[Cardus]

I actually didn't know posts were deleted here until somebody told me.

Since there are no placeholders, i.e. *message #139 deleted*

I'm gonna trust that, given some of the absurdly contentious topics that I've seen on here that deleting isn't done to silence anyone, but simply to reduce board "clutter" when too many emoticons are used, or when a topic that has run it's course and closed is magically *revived* by someone with an obsession to beat a dead horse. Or, of course, when a post puts the owners of the board under legal problems.

:)

So far, I haven't seen any conversation deleted just based on sentiment.

Do you think that this is an appropriate expression to use in this venue?

[PaceAdvantage]

Ogden Phipps Handicap...should be a relatively easy spot (Funny Moon is pointing to the race off the Shuvee win) at a relatively easy one-turn 1 1/16 distance...Grade 1....Belmont Park...

She needs a win...

Or, if they want to stay at Churchill, the Fleur de Lis...

I say she SHOULD run in the Ogden Phipps...

[andtheyreoff]

whoo. dis is guna b funn. nother 20 page discus'n involvin da bisket n da hoss n da ghostyapper. good too c all of us excit'd. da andtheyreoff hopes dat dis never endin argument ends aftr a whil.

[Dahoss9698]

whoo. dis is guna b funn. nother 20 page discus'n involvin da bisket n da hoss n da ghostyapper. good too c all of us excit'd. da andtheyreoff hopes dat dis never endin argument ends aftr a whil.

whut wee really knead is anuther pole that 1% of the populashion hear votes in. those r da bomb.

[WinterTriangle]

Do you think that this is an appropriate expression to use in this venue?

I couldn't quite figure out what you were saying til I saw the bolded. :blush:

Axe to grind. would be better, huh :)

[cj]

The initial post in this thread would be hilarious if it were typed as a joke. Sadly, it is real.

[bisket]

its rather frustrating that when something thats is factual is posted about rachel its quick to be deleted.
from drf:
The 1 1/8-mile Foster has been mentioned as a possible next start for Rachel Alexandra, the 2009 Horse of the Year, but owner Jess Jackson and trainer Steve Asmussen have declined to commit to a specific race since the star filly was upset in the April 30 La Troienne Stakes at Churchill. Rachel Alexandra, who was scheduled to work Monday at Churchill, also is a logical candidate for the $200,000 Fleur de Lis Handicap, one of five graded races on the Foster card.

The other Foster Day races are the Grade 3 Northern Dancer, Grade 3 Jefferson Cup, and Grade 3 Regret.

the link
http://drf.com/news/article/113193.html
to help refresh the reracheltard's memory; right after the apple blossom shirreffs said he would like to go to the foster next. he said this before shipping zen back to california. as usual there was total silence from jackson and assmussen about this. now they are saying well maybe we'll run....? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[bisket]

The initial post in this thread would be hilarious if it were typed as a joke. Sadly, it is real.
we're gonna note every time jackson and assmussen do this throughout the year. hopefully on this thread!!!!!!!!! it would be rediculous if this thread is deleted :p

[PaceAdvantage]

its rather frustrating that when something thats is factual is posted about rachel its quick to be deleted. What are you talking about? What was deleted that was factual and not UBER REPETITIVE.

A reply is one thing. But a whole NEW THREAD about the same old shit (x50) will be deleted....this thread right here wasn't deleted, so I don't know what you are referring to...

Nobody wants or needs another Rachel sucks, Zenyatta rules, or Zenyatta sucks, Rachel rules thread...there are PLENTY to choose from already...

Makes sense, right buddy?

[PaceAdvantage]

we're gonna note every time jackson and assmussen do this throughout the year.DO WHAT?

[bisket]

there was a number of people that feel that jackson and assmussen were pulling this stuff last year. it was overlooked. it needs to be brought into the open. they are dodging zen more than zen is doging them.

[PaceAdvantage]

there was a number of people that feel that jackson and assmussen were pulling this stuff last year.Pulling WHAT STUFF exactly. What are they doing?

We know that Jackson/Asmussen (again, note the ONE 'S' in his name) don't want to run against Zenyatta at the moment. We've known this from the time they declared Rachel from the Apple Blossom.

What is your point?

[RockHardTen1985]

Where? I have no idea. I expect her to run about the same as her last two...maybe a little better...it wasn't until her fourth start last year where she really took off in terms of figures...


I like them both, I think Zenyatta is better but Im not a Rachel hater. I think Zenyatta would have won any race Rachel won last year, and I highly doubt the same can be said the other way around.... With that said, you do seem to be really biased toward Rachel, I mostly just read here, so its easy for me to pick it up, maybe Im wrong but it 100% comes off as your a big Rachel guy and basicley think Z is a joke. I think clearly Z has accomplished more, she has also done a few things that Rachel has not, but none of that takes away from the year Rachel had last year, a lot of people cant have it both ways, they have to hate one of them and bash one of them... They are both great right now "including last year, because Rachel stinks right now" but compared to some of the fillies from even 10 years ago, IMO they are actually both just mediocre. I dont think either of them could have had much of a chance against Azeri, Banshee Breeze or Beautiful Pleasure... Even a horse like Surfside ran like a 116 beyer vs boys at Churchill, on that day Rachel and Z dont get close to her, but then again Zenyatta has something that NONE of them have she is undefeated and she has showed up in a huge way every single time, I think that says a lot about her. I guess I just think we talk to much about these fillies and its just getting old, but I guess its ok because if not them, what would we be talking about?

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't hate Zenyatta. I've stated before that I want to see her win every single race she enters (unless it's a race Rachel is also running in).

I would like nothing more than to see Zenyatta beat Grade 1 males on dirt. I want to have the same awestruck feelings others seem to have about her. The fact that I don't doesn't mean I HATE her...how silly...

I've also stated I would love to see Zenyatta come to NY so that I can see her in person.

Doesn't sound like someone who hates a particular horse, does it?

[OntheRail]

there was a number of people that feel that jackson and assmussen were pulling this stuff last year. it was overlooked. it needs to be brought into the open. they are dodging zen more than zen is doging them.
You know this opinion would have more weight if Moss had indeed kept his word about running in the SF and showcasing her to the rest of the Country. But he choose to return to Cali and has stated they have no intention of running in the East anytime soon. As many said last year Zenyatta did not have to ship anywhere as the Breeder's Cup was being held in her backyard. Well this year the BC is at Church Hill on real dirt.... So why should RA ship Cali and run on Flubber? ;)

[RockHardTen1985]

I don't hate Zenyatta. I've stated before that I want to see her win every single race she enters (unless it's a race Rachel is also running in).

I would like nothing more than to see Zenyatta beat Grade 1 males on dirt. I want to have the same awestruck feelings others seem to have about her. The fact that I don't doesn't mean I HATE her...how silly...

I've also stated I would love to see Zenyatta come to NY so that I can see her in person.

Doesn't sound like someone who hates a particular horse, does it?

Was this to me? I never really said hate, I just said you seem to be a Rachel guy and think Z is a joke....As for Grade 1 males on dirt, I would love to see it to, but Dam did Rachel really beat Grade 1 males on dirt? That Woodward was a joke... Her Haskell was really good, and I will never take that away from her, but I think Z classic was just as good. If Z runs on dirt and faces Battle Plan, Quality Road and Blame and gets beat, is it fair to compare that to Rachel beating Macho Again and Bullsbay? I think that would be really silly. Im not even sure Z could beat Battle Plan, if he is as good as Im hearing he is....Im not saying she cant get beat but your argument IMO is not that good, you keep saying Grade 1 males on dirt, but the Grade 1 dirt males this year are 1000000x better then last year. Quality Road IMO could be the best horse we have had in years, he is Ghostzapper freaky and if he wins all the races they are pointing him to this year he will have accomplished more, If he beats Z why would anyone hold that against her, or say Rachel beat Macho Again so she beat G1 males on dirt and Z did not?

[Dahoss9698]

Was this to me? I never really said hate, I just said you seem to be a Rachel guy and think Z is a joke....As for Grade 1 males on dirt, I would love to see it to, but Dam did Rachel really beat Grade 1 males on dirt? That Woodward was a joke... Her Haskell was really good, and I will never take that away from her, but I think Z classic was just as good. If Z runs on dirt and faces Battle Plan, Quality Road and Blame and gets beat, is it fair to compare that to Rachel beating Macho Again and Bullsbay? I think that would be really silly. Im not even sure Z could beat Battle Plan, if he is as good as Im hearing he is....Im not saying she cant get beat but your argument IMO is not that good, you keep saying Grade 1 males on dirt, but the Grade 1 dirt males this year are 1000000x better then last year. Quality Road IMO could be the best horse we have had in years, he is Ghostzapper freaky and if he wins all the races they are pointing him to this year he will have accomplished more, If he beats Z why would anyone hold that against her, or say Rachel beat Macho Again so she beat G1 males on dirt and Z did not?

Here's the problem when discussing the Woodward competition as if they weren't grade 1 quality. Going into the race it was setting up as a pretty strong race. Here are the contenders and what they looked like coming into the race, minus Rachel because we all know her credentials.

Macho Again- won the grade 2 New Orleans Handicap in March, 6th in gr.3 Alysheba, won grade 1 Stephen Foster and 2nd in gr 1 Whitney. As a 3 year old won Derby Trial and Jim Dandy.

Bullsbay- 2nd in gr 3 Hal's Hope, won gr.3 Alysheba, 4th Stephen Foster, 10th Hollywood Gold Cup, won gr. 1 Whitney.

Asiatic Boy- Came to the US with a big reputation. Won UAE Derby earlier in his career and was 2nd in Curlin's Dubai World Cup in 2008. Was 2nd in gr. 1 Stephen Foster and 2nd in gr. 2 Suburban.

It's A Bird- Won Sunshine Million Classic (107 Beyer), 3rd in NO Handicap, Won Oaklawn Handicap (107 Beyer, was later DQ'd because of post race testing), won Lone Star Park Handicap gr. 3 (107 Beyer) and was 7th in Suburban.

Past The Point- has never really lived up to his hype, but he ran two big races going two turns at Saratoga in 2008. Won an allowance race earning a 106 Beyer and then was 2nd to Curlin in Woodward (110 Beyer). He had returned off a freshening with a visually impressive allowance score prior to the Woodward.

Cool Coal Man- honest horse, but not grade 1 quality. He did however run a big race a few weeks prior to the Woodward, romping by almost 13 lengths, earning a 107 Beyer going two turns at saratoga.

Now, I know the older horses weren't real strong last year. I'm not saying this was an all time field. However, going into the race you had the winners, or runners up of most of the top dirt stakes so far in 2009, with some interesting allowance winners. It was the best collection of older dirt horses in 2009.

We all know how horses have performed coming out, but it doesn't cancel out what they achieved going into the race. The reason why the fields Zenyatta has beaten comes up, is aside from the BC Classic, the fields she beat were bad before and bad after the race.

[PaceAdvantage]

Was this to me? I never really said hate,Well yeah, you kinda did -- "they have to hate one of them and bash one of them"

That Woodward was a joke...Ummm...no...it wasn't...I have detailed the quality of that field COMING INTO the race before on this board. Dahoss just gave it another shot here in this thread. Four out of the six horses in that field (not including RA of course) were multiple graded stakes winners. Three of them were Grade 1 winners. Three of them were millionaires, one many times over. It was surely NOT a joke of a field, and the older horses this year are certainly not 1000000x better.

And I love how off of ONE RACE, Quality Road is now some sort of world beater. After his freakout in the BC Classic, there were MULTIPLE opinions here on how this horse was DONE. How he was overrated. But he runs one big race at Gulfstream, and all of a sudden, he's the next Ghostzapper?

First off, it's clear Quality Road is not only a bit of a head case, but he's also fragile...why all this time off? Second, I need to see him race again before I even begin to think he will be a major threat the rest of the year in places other than Gulfstream.

[ghostyapper]

The whitney and stephen foster were both better fields. It was not an allowance field but the woodward was not the best collection of older horses in 2009

[FenceBored]

We really haven't discussed rachel's next start much. You are quick to close any rachel thread but let critical zenyatta threads run on for days. Telling..

What about Telling? Are you saying there should be a three-corner match race between Rachel, Zenyatta, and Telling?
Each run on their own surface?

[ghostyapper]

Speaking of her, she had a 5 fur work today. Less than 3 weeks till June 12th

[Dahoss9698]

The whitney and stephen foster were both better fields. It was not an allowance field but the woodward was not the best collection of older horses in 2009

Even if that were true (which I don't think, but I'll play along) she defeated the winners and runners up of both of those races in the Woodward.

[Kimsus]

The Woodward was not the toughest collection of older "dirt" horses in 2009. I think there was a clever qualifier to that statement "older dirt horses" since that eliminated the SA Big Cap, Pacific Classic, The Hollywood Gold Cup and the truly the toughest collection of older horses in 09 the Breeders Cup Classic.

I would say the Jockey Club Gold Cup was tougher, the World Dubai Cup deeper, The Donn Handicap perhaps more challenging.

Let's examine the Woodward field:

D'tara - hasn't done much since winning the Belmont, this horse was a non factor in his races heading into the Woodward in 09

Pass the Point - in 09 he looked he was Passed his Prime, even though he had run a couple of nice races at The Spa previously it was a big stretch to think he would have won that day.

Asiatic Boy - truth is he milked his rep 2nd to Curlin beaten by 12 lengths in the Dubai World Cup and again by more to Well Armed in 09, infact he wa totally outmatched in the Jockey Gold Cup also where he finished last. His best finish was a 2nd in The SF to Macho Again, and a 2nd to a 11-1 Dry Martini in the Suburban as 8/5 favorite. Not a horse one should have confidence in.

Cool Coal Mine - Agree with the above analysis, a good allowance horse that is just below stakes caliber where his beyers make him often look better than what he truly is until he faces a graded stakes field.

It's a Bird - Interesting horse that drew the suspicion of Andy Beyer with his his column 'super trainers' Obviously he was not the same horse in the Woodward as he was earlier in the spring, prior to the drug positive at OP.

Bullsbay - a no name prior to running a 18-1 upset in the Whitney, a career top for him, a repeat race was highly unlikely.

Macho Again - Hands down the best horse Rachel faced, won the SF at 7-1 over a decent field that included Einstein and second ahead on Commentator in the 6 horse Whitney. I will give him credit for showing up for some of his races, but he was hardly a match to Summer Bird and Quality Road in the JCGC later in the year and hasn't been much since.

All which leads me to believe Rachel caught a field of perhaps and adequate assembly of older horses at the right time for the picking, all the credit to her connections, it wasn't a allowance field she faced however given she was .30 to the dollar on the oddsboard, most overwhlmingly liked her chances this day, thus any good bettor must wonder just how deep was her competition this day.

[RockHardTen1985]

Well yeah, you kinda did -- "they have to hate one of them and bash one of them"

Ummm...no...it wasn't...I have detailed the quality of that field COMING INTO the race before on this board. Dahoss just gave it another shot here in this thread. Four out of the six horses in that field (not including RA of course) were multiple graded stakes winners. Three of them were Grade 1 winners. Three of them were millionaires, one many times over. It was surely NOT a joke of a field, and the older horses this year are certainly not 1000000x better.

And I love how off of ONE RACE, Quality Road is now some sort of world beater. After his freakout in the BC Classic, there were MULTIPLE opinions here on how this horse was DONE. How he was overrated. But he runs one big race at Gulfstream, and all of a sudden, he's the next Ghostzapper?

First off, it's clear Quality Road is not only a bit of a head case, but he's also fragile...why all this time off? Second, I need to see him race again before I even begin to think he will be a major threat the rest of the year in places other than Gulfstream.


I love how people ignore his triple digit beyer at Aqueduct and his Giant performance off the bench at Saratoga.....Even his Travers and JCGC were huge. Why people continue to call him just a Gulfstream horse is really confusing to me. The horse he beat in that sprint off the bench at Toga did come back to win the Grade 1 Kings Bishop.

[ghostyapper]

Even if that were true (which I don't think, but I'll play along) she defeated the winners and runners up of both of those races in the Woodward.

Biased as you may be I think even you will admit that Macho Again, though the winner, was not the best horse in the foster. Take a look at Einstein's trip and resume compared to Macho Again.

And commentator wasn't too shabby at 9 fur at the spa. I still would take him at 8 over any other horse in the woodward besides the 2 that ran him down.

[RockHardTen1985]

Biased as you may be I think even you will admit that Macho Again, though the winner, was not the best horse in the foster. Take a look at Einstein's trip and resume compared to Macho Again.

And commentator wasn't too shabby at 9 fur at the spa. I still would take him at 8 over any other horse in the woodward besides the 2 that ran him down.

OMG the 2 that ran him down are horrible, they cought him at 8... He was not the same, not many are the same at 8.

[Dahoss9698]

The Woodward was not the toughest collection of older "dirt" horses in 2009. I think there was a clever qualifier to that statement "older dirt horses" since that eliminated the SA Big Cap, Pacific Classic, The Hollywood Gold Cup and the truly the toughest collection of older horses in 09 the Breeders Cup Classic.

I would say the Jockey Club Gold Cup was tougher, the World Dubai Cup deeper, The Donn Handicap perhaps more challenging.

Let's examine the Woodward field:

D'tara - hasn't done much since winning the Belmont, this horse was a non factor in his races heading into the Woodward in 09

Pass the Point - in 09 he looked he was Passed his Prime, even though he had run a couple of nice races at The Spa previously it was a big stretch to think he would have won that day.

Asiatic Boy - truth is he milked his rep 2nd to Curlin beaten by 12 lengths in the Dubai World Cup and again by more to Well Armed in 09, infact he wa totally outmatched in the Jockey Gold Cup also where he finished last. His best finish was a 2nd in The SF to Macho Again, and a 2nd to a 11-1 Dry Martini in the Suburban as 8/5 favorite. Not a horse one should have confidence in.

Cool Coal Mine - Agree with the above analysis, a good allowance horse that is just below stakes caliber where his beyers make him often look better than what he truly is until he faces a graded stakes field.

It's a Bird - Interesting horse that drew the suspicion of Andy Beyer with his his column 'super trainers' Obviously he was not the same horse in the Woodward as he was earlier in the spring, prior to the drug positive at OP.

Bullsbay - a no name prior to running a 18-1 upset in the Whitney, a career top for him, a repeat race was highly unlikely.

Macho Again - Hands down the best horse Rachel faced, won the SF at 7-1 over a decent field that included Einstein and second ahead on Commentator in the 6 horse Whitney. I will give him credit for showing up for some of his races, but he was hardly a match to Summer Bird and Quality Road in the JCGC later in the year and hasn't been much since.

All which leads me to believe Rachel caught a field of perhaps and adequate assembly of older horses at the right time for the picking, all the credit to her connections, it wasn't a allowance field she faced however given she was .30 to the dollar on the oddsboard, most overwhlmingly liked her chances this day, thus any good bettor must wonder just how deep was her competition this day.

:lol:

It was qualified with the dirt label, because while some might want to ignore surface difference, I won't. The other three races you mention are funny.

Bullsbay was a no name that had won the Alysheba, was 6-1 in the Donn and 9-1 in the Hollywood Gold Cup. Seems like someone knew who he was to be bet down like that. And while he didn't exactly repeat the effort, he ran 1 Beyer point less. Seems pretty close to a repeat effort.

I'm not going to waste anymore of my time with the rest. You can fight this battle alone. And I'm sure you will.

[ghostyapper]

OMG the 2 that ran him down are horrible, they cought him at 8... He was not the same, not many are the same at 8.

Of course I would take him over those 2 but the reason I said that is because bullsbay and Macho Again were in both races. So if we cross those 2 off in comparing the fields, an 8yo commentator is the best horse remaining. I'm trying to keep it simple here ;)

And yes if those 2 had caught commentator at 5-6 he would have ran a 46 half and drew away from them in the stretch.

[joanied]

This is an out and out fabrication. If this were true, he wouldn't be a mod any longer...

He will delete responses that consist of nothing but an emoticon (his pet peeve, and something I agree with). Or responses that are completely off the topic.

But then again, that's what he is here for...

I'm just now reading through this thread...is this serious, Pace :confused: ...if someone, say, posts something funny...we can't reply with the laughing emoticon? If someone posts something we agree with, or think it's a well said post, and there isn't much more to add...we can't reply with just the thumbs up emoticon?

[Dahoss9698]

Biased as you may be I think even you will admit that Macho Again, though the winner, was not the best horse in the foster. Take a look at Einstein's trip and resume compared to Macho Again.

And commentator wasn't too shabby at 9 fur at the spa. I still would take him at 8 over any other horse in the woodward besides the 2 that ran him down.

Biased as I am? Yeah, you're the poster child for unbiased analysis. Einstein might have been best, although he was a horse that seemed to find trouble. Regardless, what I said was still correct. No matter how much it might bother you, I deal with facts, not uneducated guesses.

Commentator was a very good horse. Who would have been undefeated if kept in restricted races for a majority of his career like someone else I can think of. However, he was not the same horse in that WHitney and was retired afterwords. Even someone so biased would have to admit that he had lost many steps by that point, hence the retirement.

[Kimsus]

Biased as you may be I think even you will admit that Macho Again, though the winner, was not the best horse in the foster. Take a look at Einstein's trip and resume compared to Macho Again.

And commentator wasn't too shabby at 9 fur at the spa. I still would take him at 8 over any other horse in the woodward besides the 2 that ran him down.

Einstein was the best horse in the Stephen Foster, some of his chart comments reads 'checked off heels', 'bottled up between horses', 'shifted out', 'bumped and shuffled back', 'inside late but was left with too much to do'.

[Kimsus]

:lol:

It was qualified with the dirt label, because while some might want to ignore surface difference, I won't. The other three races you mention are funny.

Bullsbay was a no name that had won the Alysheba, was 6-1 in the Donn and 9-1 in the Hollywood Gold Cup. Seems like someone knew who he was to be bet down like that. And while he didn't exactly repeat the effort, he ran 1 Beyer point less. Seems pretty close to a repeat effort.

I'm not going to waste anymore of my time with the rest. You can fight this battle alone. And I'm sure you will.

I give you an A for effort for the Woodward prop up post. I'm just not sure it convinced anyone just how mediocre it truly was. But again atleast it was well thought out. Congrats.

[ghostyapper]

Biased as I am? Yeah, you're the poster child for unbiased analysis. Einstein might have been best, although he was a horse that seemed to find trouble. Regardless, what I said was still correct. No matter how much it might bother you, I deal with facts, not uneducated guesses.

Commentator was a very good horse. Who would have been undefeated if kept in restricted races for a majority of his career like someone else I can think of. However, he was not the same horse in that WHitney and was retired afterwords. Even someone so biased would have to admit that he had lost many steps by that point, hence the retirement.

So now it's you deal with just cold hard facts stating races won and graded status? It seems for others you look deeper at trip trouble or field quality. Interesting..

Commentator was retired after the whitney because he was only brought back for that race. It wasn't that he couldn't run faster than It's a bird or Asiatic boy anymore.

[cj]

I'm just now reading through this thread...is this serious, Pace :confused: ...if someone, say, posts something funny...we can't reply with the laughing emoticon? If someone posts something we agree with, or think it's a well said post, and there isn't much more to add...we can't reply with just the thumbs up emoticon?

Actually, there is a place in each thread where you can rate it. The emoticon things get out of hand. If you agree and have nothing to say, what it the point really? With the number of people reading this board, imagine if everyone did the same thing. You could have 75 posts, usually with a quote of the original, and emoticons.

[Dahoss9698]

Commentator was retired after the whitney because he was only brought back for that race. It wasn't that he couldn't run faster than It's a bird or Asiatic boy anymore.

This, as usual, is not true.

[Dahoss9698]

So now it's you deal with just cold hard facts stating races won and graded status? It seems for others you look deeper at trip trouble or field quality. Interesting..



Actually this isn't true either. So far so good.

[RockHardTen1985]

Actually this isn't true either. So far so good.


Mr. Hoss, Sir, I would like to challenge you to a handicapping contest.

[ghostyapper]

This, as usual, is not true.

Which part, the one about them bringing him back at 8 to run in the whitney and tie kelso and discovery or that he was still faster than its a bird and asiatic boy?

[Dahoss9698]

Mr. Hoss, Sir, I would like to challenge you to a handicapping contest.

That didn't work out so well for you last time.

[RockHardTen1985]

That didn't work out so well for you last time.

Good point...

[OntheRail]

The Woodward was not the toughest collection of older "dirt" horses in 2009. I think there was a clever qualifier to that statement "older dirt horses" since that eliminated the SA Big Cap, Pacific Classic, The Hollywood Gold Cup and the truly the toughest collection of older horses in 09 the Breeders Cup Classic.

I would say the Jockey Club Gold Cup was tougher, the World Dubai Cup deeper, The Donn Handicap perhaps more challenging.

Let's examine the Woodward field:

D'tara - hasn't done much since winning the Belmont, this horse was a non factor in his races heading into the Woodward in 09

Pass the Point - in 09 he looked he was Passed his Prime, even though he had run a couple of nice races at The Spa previously it was a big stretch to think he would have won that day.

Asiatic Boy - truth is he milked his rep 2nd to Curlin beaten by 12 lengths in the Dubai World Cup and again by more to Well Armed in 09, infact he wa totally outmatched in the Jockey Gold Cup also where he finished last. His best finish was a 2nd in The SF to Macho Again, and a 2nd to a 11-1 Dry Martini in the Suburban as 8/5 favorite. Not a horse one should have confidence in.

Cool Coal Mine - Agree with the above analysis, a good allowance horse that is just below stakes caliber where his beyers make him often look better than what he truly is until he faces a graded stakes field.

It's a Bird - Interesting horse that drew the suspicion of Andy Beyer with his his column 'super trainers' Obviously he was not the same horse in the Woodward as he was earlier in the spring, prior to the drug positive at OP.

Bullsbay - a no name prior to running a 18-1 upset in the Whitney, a career top for him, a repeat race was highly unlikely.

Macho Again - Hands down the best horse Rachel faced, won the SF at 7-1 over a decent field that included Einstein and second ahead on Commentator in the 6 horse Whitney. I will give him credit for showing up for some of his races, but he was hardly a match to Summer Bird and Quality Road in the JCGC later in the year and hasn't been much since.

All which leads me to believe Rachel caught a field of perhaps and adequate assembly of older horses at the right time for the picking, all the credit to her connections, it wasn't a allowance field she faced however given she was .30 to the dollar on the oddsboard, most overwhlmingly liked her chances this day, thus any good bettor must wonder just how deep was her competition this day.

Sure she was the favorite... allot of novas bettors came out to watch the Undefeated Preakness Winner run. And with all the Girl Power stuff going on. Say what you will but the fractions were stiff and she was pushed every step of the way around the track from rabbit D'tara to closer Mocha Again and still prevailed.

[Dahoss9698]

Which part, the one about them bringing him back at 8 to run in the whitney and tie kelso and discovery or that he was still faster than its a bird and asiatic boy?

I'm impressed, you can use google. Might as well read the entire article (with your eyes open) while you are at it.

[joanied]

Actually, there is a place in each thread where you can rate it. The emoticon things get out of hand. If you agree and have nothing to say, what it the point really? With the number of people reading this board, imagine if everyone did the same thing. You could have 75 posts, usually with a quote of the original, and emoticons.

OK. I get it.

[ghostyapper]

Commentator was brought back at 8 with the specific goal of running in and winning the whitney. Winning it 3 times was very important to the owners and zito and they made no secret about it at the time. He was retired after the race not because he couldn't run anymore but because their goal was the whitney. Deflect all you want since that's all you're good at.

[Kimsus]

Sure she was the favorite... allot of novas bettors came out to watch the Undefeated Preakness Winner run. And with all the Girl Power stuff going on. Say what you will but the fractions were stiff and she was pushed every step of the way around the track from rabbit D'tara to closer Mocha Again and still prevailed.

I gave her credit for winning especially the gameness part of it, however if you take 'girlpower' out of the equation, I doubt this win would be lauded as much as it is almost 2 months to the year as it is today. .30 is more than just having novice bettors bet her down, maybe it was they noticed the 8 lbs she got from the field. ;) ;) ;)

[gm10]

:lol:

It was qualified with the dirt label, because while some might want to ignore surface difference, I won't. The other three races you mention are funny.

Bullsbay was a no name that had won the Alysheba, was 6-1 in the Donn and 9-1 in the Hollywood Gold Cup. Seems like someone knew who he was to be bet down like that. And while he didn't exactly repeat the effort, he ran 1 Beyer point less. Seems pretty close to a repeat effort.

I'm not going to waste anymore of my time with the rest. You can fight this battle alone. And I'm sure you will.

Let's look at it in a different way. What if Zenyatta had beaten the same horses. (on any surface) How would you have rated the race?

[Dahoss9698]

Commentator was brought back at 8 with the specific goal of running in and winning the whitney. Winning it 3 times was very important to the owners and zito and they made no secret about it at the time. He was retired after the race not because he couldn't run anymore but because their goal was the whitney. Deflect all you want since that's all you're good at.
I never said he couldn't run anymore. I said he had lost a step. I'm still trying to figure out what you are good at. So far the only thing I can come up with is being wrong. You're very good at that.

[Steve R]

The Woodward was not the toughest collection of older "dirt" horses in 2009. I think there was a clever qualifier to that statement "older dirt horses" since that eliminated the SA Big Cap, Pacific Classic, The Hollywood Gold Cup and the truly the toughest collection of older horses in 09 the Breeders Cup Classic.[snip]
Be careful when you throw around phrases like "truly the toughest collection of older horses in 09 the Breeders Cup Classic." The BC Classic horses who ran in the DWC pretty much sucked when beaten by a 7yo whose only previous Group 1 win was against a forgettable field in Singapore and who then lost his next start. Arguably this was among the weakest DWC fields in the race's history, yet some of the best older US-raced horses of 2009 couldn't compete. That doesn't say much about the quality of older US males. Or would you like to also bring up the best older fillies and mares of 2009 like, for example, BC Ladies Classic winner Life Is Sweet, who in her next start was easily handled by a filly that had never won a graded race and which was subsequently trounced when she tried older males? Your assessments of "toughest" or "weakest" are simply your opinion and are not necessarily accurate. They are assumptions that you have made in order to support your position. But if you choose to invoke the "who beat whom" argument, those who would use some sort of performance figure instead are equally justified.

[Dahoss9698]

Let's look at it in a different way. What if Zenyatta had beaten the same horses. (on any surface) How would you have rated the race?

Your premise is faulty because it's not any surface. We're talking about dirt. But, if it was on dirt, I would have a similar thought as I do about Rachel's Woodward.

Now, there are some glaring differences, because Rachel was a 3 year old filly beating older males and she won it by being on the engine nearly the entire race. But generally I would have had the same feeling. Now, had Zenyatta won the race (on dirt), while overcoming a slow pace, I would have rated it nearly identical.

[OntheRail]

I gave her credit for winning especially the gameness part of it, however if you take 'girlpower' out of the equation, I doubt this win would be lauded as much as it is almost 2 months to the year as it is today. .30 is more than just having novice bettors bet her down, maybe it was they noticed the 8 lbs she got from the field. ;) ;) ;)

Ok lets take the GP out of it... She was a 3 year filly and that's what the conditions called for. I believe any 3 year old would of gotten weight in that race... beit Summer Bird or Quality Road but they choose to run in restricted races at that time... she stepped up to the gate and crossed the wire first that day. It was a bold move by Jackson... going into the race. ;)

[RockHardTen1985]

I love how people ignore his triple digit beyer at Aqueduct and his Giant performance off the bench at Saratoga.....Even his Travers and JCGC were huge. Why people continue to call him just a Gulfstream horse is really confusing to me. The horse he beat in that sprint off the bench at Toga did come back to win the Grade 1 Kings Bishop.


I guess facts are actually facts and there is no smart ass response to this....

[gm10]

Your premise is faulty because it's not any surface. We're talking about dirt. But, if it was on dirt, I would have a similar thought as I do about Rachel's Woodward.

Now, there are some glaring differences, because Rachel was a 3 year old filly beating older males and she won it by being on the engine nearly the entire race. But generally I would have had the same feeling. Now, had Zenyatta won the race (on dirt), while overcoming a slow pace, I would have rated it nearly identical.

i don't understand that you are so narrow-minded that you can only appreciate dirt winners, but anyway, hopefully you will be of the same opinion at the end of October

[Dahoss9698]

i don't understand that you are so narrow-minded that you can only appreciate dirt winners, but anyway, hopefully you will be of the same opinion at the end of October

I don't understand a lot about your narrow mindness either. However, I don't only appreciate dirt winners. I appreciate turf as well. I just don't care for the fake surface.

Tell me, in Europe how many group 1 races are run over synthetics?

[gm10]

Be careful when you throw around phrases like "truly the toughest collection of older horses in 09 the Breeders Cup Classic." The BC Classic horses who ran in the DWC pretty much sucked when beaten by a 7yo whose only previous Group 1 win was against a forgettable field in Singapore and who then lost his next start. Arguably this was among the weakest DWC fields in the race's history, yet some of the best older US-raced horses of 2009 couldn't compete. That doesn't say much about the quality of older US males. Or would you like to also bring up the best older fillies and mares of 2009 like, for example, BC Ladies Classic winner Life Is Sweet, who in her next start was easily handled by a filly that had never won a graded race and which was subsequently trounced when she tried older males? Your assessments of "toughest" or "weakest" are simply your opinion and are not necessarily accurate. They are assumptions that you have made in order to support your position. But if you choose to invoke the "who beat whom" argument, those who would use some sort of performance figure instead are equally justified.


Well if you're going to use that argument I feel that I should point out that the Woodward field is 1/22 since that race. Cool Coal Man won an optional claimer at Gulfstream. The Classic was probably a stronger field than that, with already two grade 1's from Zenyatta and a more than creditable 4th for Gio Ponti in the DWC (which wasn't a weak race, unless you are refering to the jockey's who were hopeless). Most of the Classic horses still need to make their seasonal debut, though, so theoretically it could still be a weak race in hindsight - but I doubt it.

[gm10]

I don't understand a lot about your narrow mindness either. However, I don't only appreciate dirt winners. I appreciate turf as well. I just don't care for the fake surface.

Tell me, in Europe how many group 1 races are run over synthetics?

What does that have to with your failure to appreciate something different? And why would you appreciate the turf and not the synthetic? Why would we believe you?

[tucker6]

I'm confused by this thread. I was hoping to learn in these five pages when to cheer, and when to jeer, the lady horses. I need to be pointed in the right direction. Are they bums, or are they top three all time?? What I found left me unsatisfied. By the title of the thread, I thought this would be the definitive thread on Rachel and Zenyatta, and worthy of my interest. :rolleyes: Carry onward.

P.S. - I love the revisioning of history in here. Makes for a good novel at times.

[Dahoss9698]

What does that have to with your failure to appreciate something different? And why would you appreciate the turf and not the synthetic? Why would we believe you?

It's pretty funny to me that you can't even answer the question. The answer is ZERO. It has nothing to do with appreciating something different, although that is a nice tactic.

I've (or we as you say) noticed that you like to ask questions, but don't really like answering them. I understand why, but don't think it goes unnoticed.

[classhandicapper]

I've also stated I would love to see Zenyatta come to NY so that I can see her in person.


I would LOVE to see her run at Belmont on either dirt or on the Widner turf against fillies if they want to expand her resume to include Grade 1 races on all surfaces.

I think a filly her size she might LOVE those big sweeping turns to make her run.

[classhandicapper]

The whitney and stephen foster were both better fields. It was not an allowance field but the woodward was not the best collection of older horses in 2009

The entire year was bad for older dirt horses. I'd call the Woodward a glorified Grade 2 relative to the average year.

[Headbanger]

What does that have to with your failure to appreciate something different? And why would you appreciate the turf and not the synthetic? Why would we believe you?

Are you that simple minded? We appreciate the two surfaces that horses have run on in this country for years, Dirt and Turf. The two traditional surfaces. We appreciate turf because it's been in the sport for a long time. We don't appreciate a fake track that makes average horses look good and good horses look average. Polytrack or Synthetic tracks are not a surface. They are rubber and a bunch of crap ground together to make up a FAKE surface, not a natural surface like dirt or turf.

And I'll throw something out there for you, the Commonweath Breeders Cup this year was won by a New Jersey-bred dirt horse by the name of Together Indy I believe. A horse who was running high 80s and low 90s beyers on the dirt. So now in this past year's Commonweath at Keeneland over the polytrack he runs a winning beyer in that race of an 86? 10K claimers can run an 86 beyer. The Commonweath was previously won by Sun King, Orientate, Richter Scale, Clockstopper, Lion Tamer, Good and Tough, Distorted Humor, etc. Now since going over to poly we have had the thrill of seeing Silent Name, Rebellion, Eternal Star, and Together Indy win this race. Excuse for not appreciating polycrap.

[gm10]

It's pretty funny to me that you can't even answer the question. The answer is ZERO. It has nothing to do with appreciating something different, although that is a nice tactic.
It's not a tactic as such, it's a polite word for ignorance.

I've (or we as you say) noticed that you like to ask questions, but don't really like answering them. I understand why, but don't think it goes unnoticed.

This was a rhetorical question. We both knew the answer was 0. How dumb do you think people are?

[gm10]

Are you that simple minded? We appreciate the two surfaces that horses have run on in this country for years, Dirt and Turf. The two traditional surfaces. We appreciate turf because it's been in the sport for a long time. We don't appreciate a fake track that makes average horses look good and good horses look average. Polytrack or Synthetic tracks are not a surface. They are rubber and a bunch of crap ground together to make up a FAKE surface, not a natural surface like dirt or turf.

Dirt is a composite material, just like synthetic surfaces are. They are both artificial. And of course the turf is also artificial. The grass that is used for it is certainly not the same type that grows in your garden, and it is certainly not what evolution has prepared horses for. Let's not be arrogant about this - it is not up to us to decide what 'natural' is. None of horse racing is natural to the horse.

And I'll throw something out there for you, the Commonweath Breeders Cup this year was won by a New Jersey-bred dirt horse by the name of Together Indy I believe. A horse who was running high 80s and low 90s beyers on the dirt. So now in this past year's Commonweath at Keeneland over the polytrack he runs a winning beyer in that race of an 86? 10K claimers can run an 86 beyer. The Commonweath was previously won by Sun King, Orientate, Richter Scale, Clockstopper, Lion Tamer, Good and Tough, Distorted Humor, etc. Now since going over to poly we have had the thrill of seeing Silent Name, Rebellion, Eternal Star, and Together Indy win this race. Excuse for not appreciating polycrap.

Ridiculous. As if Mine That Bird, winner of the greatest dirt race, is such a great race horse. Or Giacomo. What about Sinister Minister? He ran like a rocket in the Blue Grass (dirt) and couldn't even win in allowance company afterwards. Every race on every surface has winners that are less good than previous years, that's how it's always been.

[Headbanger]

Ridiculous. As if Mine That Bird, winner of the greatest dirt race, is such a great race horse. Or Giacomo. What about Sinister Minister? He ran like a rocket in the Blue Grass (dirt) and couldn't even win in allowance company afterwards. Every race on every surface has winners that are less good than previous years, that's how it's always been.

Mine That Bird is actually a pretty good horse, ON DIRT that is. And the Kentucky Derby is far from the greatest dirt race. Most historic and most glamorous, yes, best, far from it. Sinister Minister was a case of the track bias. But I simply proved to you that Keeneland isn't getting the same caliber of horse in those stakes that used to be on dirt now that it's run on polycrap. You never would have seen those winners on polycrap. It's the fans and the bettors that lose out by seeing polycrap races because good dirt horses don't want to run on Polycrap.

[Dahoss9698]

Gm10, you must have lost a fortune on that Sinister Minister Blue Grass. You are obsessed with that race.

I crushed it.

[gm10]

Mine That Bird is actually a pretty good horse, ON DIRT that is. And the Kentucky Derby is far from the greatest dirt race. Most historic and most glamorous, yes, best, far from it. Sinister Minister was a case of the track bias. But I simply proved to you that Keeneland isn't getting the same caliber of horse in those stakes that used to be on dirt now that it's run on polycrap. You never would have seen those winners on polycrap. It's the fans and the bettors that lose out by seeing polycrap races because good dirt horses don't want to run on Polycrap.

To sum up: there are excuses for freak results on the dirt but not on the polytrack?

By the way, that horse at Keeneland wasn't exactly a rank outsider, he paid less than 6/1. Other people must have seen something that you had missed.

[gm10]

Gm10, you must have lost a fortune on that Sinister Minister Blue Grass. You are obsessed with that race.

I crushed it.

I can't remember if I had a bet in that race. But I laid SM in the Derby - that was like taking candy from a baby.

[Dahoss9698]

I can't remember if I had a bet in that race. But I laid SM in the Derby - that was like taking candy from a baby.

Likely story. But just curious, since you were so confident that race was a fluke, why are you so dumbfounded by the result, years later? (Rhetorical, I already know the answer)

[ghostyapper]

Asmussen on today's work

"She looked great and galloped out super," trainer Steve Asmussen said. "She's doing well. It was just very nice. It was nice and smooth, covered ground well and was out very strong."

Asmussen on next start
"all options are open"

[Headbanger]

To sum up: there are excuses for freak results on the dirt but not on the polytrack?

By the way, that horse at Keeneland wasn't exactly a rank outsider, he paid less than 6/1. Other people must have seen something that you had missed.

Kinda hard to be a rank outsider in a 5 horse field eh? Duh...it's not like Sinister Minister was some 50/1 shot that was allowed to walk on the lead and simply put them to sleep on the front end...he was far from a freak result especially the way the track bias at Keeneland used to be.

[Nikki1997]

Asmussen on today's work

"She looked great and galloped out super," trainer Steve Asmussen said. "She's doing well. It was just very nice. It was nice and smooth, covered ground well and was out very strong."

Asmussen on next start
"all options are open"

Where did he say that about TODAY'S workout ???

[ghostyapper]

Bloodhorse (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/57166/rachel-alexandra-sharp-in-churchill-workout)

[Nikki1997]

Bloodhorse (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/57166/rachel-alexandra-sharp-in-churchill-workout)


Interesting, because his words sounded nearly identical to what he said a few works ago .

If the statement was issued through the communications department, it might just be a rehash .

I don't care either way, but these words and a prior statement almost sound verbatim.

I looked at her work info at DRF--must have had a duh moment not checking BH ..

[Steve R]

Well if you're going to use that argument I feel that I should point out that the Woodward field is 1/22 since that race. Cool Coal Man won an optional claimer at Gulfstream. The Classic was probably a stronger field than that, with already two grade 1's from Zenyatta and a more than creditable 4th for Gio Ponti in the DWC (which wasn't a weak race, unless you are refering to the jockey's who were hopeless). Most of the Classic horses still need to make their seasonal debut, though, so theoretically it could still be a weak race in hindsight - but I doubt it.
The DWC was not a weak race? These are the highest lifetime Racing Post Ratings of DWC winners since 1996:

Cigar 135
Singspiel 130
Silver Charm 128
Almutawakel 125
Dubai Millennium 139
Captain Steve 126
Street Cry 127
Moon Ballad 129
Pleasantly Perfect 128
Roses in May 130
Electrocutionist 126
Invasor 132
Curlin 131
Well Armed 128
Gloria de Campeao 122

Gloria de Campeao matched his lifetime best 122 in the DWC. That field was not only weak, it was atrocious. The only horse with a lifetime RPR better than the two previously lowest-rated DWC winners was Gio Ponti with a 127. He earned a 119. Interestingly, Zenyatta came out of the BC Classic (presumably her best performance) with a lifetime best RPR of 128, fourth worst of any winner since 1996, ahead of only Cat Thief, Alphabet Soup and Volponi. So depending on what information you choose to believe, not only was the DWC weak, so was the BC Classic (which is consistent with the poor performances of the 2009 BC Classic runners in the DWC). The point of all this is that opinion is not fact. You can accept or reject any information you like in support of or in opposition to your view. That applies to Zenyatta fans, Rachel Alexandra fans or fans of a horse that broke its maiden for $5,000 at Ellis Park. Since people use different standards in these discussions, you can pretty much consider the discussions useless. I, for example, generally trust the opinion of the pros at the Racing Post --- at least more than I trust yours.

[gm10]

The DWC was not a weak race? These are the highest lifetime Racing Post Ratings of DWC winners since 1996:

Cigar 135
Singspiel 130
Silver Charm 128
Almutawakel 125
Dubai Millennium 139
Captain Steve 126
Street Cry 127
Moon Ballad 129
Pleasantly Perfect 128
Roses in May 130
Electrocutionist 126
Invasor 132
Curlin 131
Well Armed 128
Gloria de Campeao 122

Gloria de Campeao matched his lifetime best 122 in the DWC. That field was not only weak, it was atrocious. The only horse with a lifetime RPR better than the two previously lowest-rated DWC winners was Gio Ponti with a 127. He earned a 119. Interestingly, Zenyatta came out of the BC Classic (presumably her best performance) with a lifetime best RPR of 128, fourth worst of any winner since 1996, ahead of only Cat Thief, Alphabet Soup and Volponi. So depending on what information you choose to believe, not only was the DWC weak, so was the BC Classic (which is consistent with the poor performances of the 2009 BC Classic runners in the DWC). The point of all this is that opinion is not fact. You can accept or reject any information you like in support of or in opposition to your view. That applies to Zenyatta fans, Rachel Alexandra fans or fans of a horse that broke its maiden for $5,000 at Ellis Park. Since people use different standards in these discussions, you can pretty much consider the discussions useless. I, for example, generally trust the opinion of the pros at the Racing Post --- at least more than I trust yours.

Well I respect your opinion, for sure, I have read your book and consult your website from time to time. So with all due respect, I think you are making a mistake: I don't think it was a weak race. I'm not saying it was an amazing race, but it wasn't that bad. Going into the DWC 2009, Well Armed had earned a top RPR of 122, for example. Electrocuniost had topped at 126 before winning in 2006. Note that I don't use lifetime highs - that would be misleading as the likes of Gio Ponti and Gitano Hernando are still racing.

This year,
Gloria had a personal best of 120
Gio Ponti 127
Richard's Kid 122
Lizard's Desire had 118 and now a 123
Vision D'Etat 124
Tiwce OVer 125
Gitano Hernando 123
Crowded House 120
Furthest Land 120
Mastery 119

This was a pretty deep field. It was certainly much better on average than what Curlin faced in 2008 (please check top RPR going into that race if you disagree). Yes the DWC lacked a marquee name, but I disagree with your label 'atrocious'. There was a lot more dead wood in previous years.

Finally, be sure that you know what you are dealing with in those RPR. They are form ratings, and they can be adjusted if the form doesn't work out. They are not speed ratings.

[andtheyreoff]

I'm thinking that Pace needs to create a seperate section for just these Rachel-Zenyatta debates. It would certainly be a lot more convienent to watch this nonsense occur.

[Kimsus]

Bloodhorse (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/57166/rachel-alexandra-sharp-in-churchill-workout)

Or The Zenyatta not firing on all cylinders.....yet Thread. You could see this one coming without a seeing eye dog.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70524&page=1&pp=15

05-20-2010, 06:38 PM #7
Kimsus
Registered User


Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 882
vCash: 400 Let me guess.

1. Rubber
2. She's not ready
3. Why should they ship out west
4. We are undecided on what race to run her in
5. All of the above

[Kimsus]

Be careful when you throw around phrases like "truly the toughest collection of older horses in 09 the Breeders Cup Classic." The BC Classic horses who ran in the DWC pretty much sucked when beaten by a 7yo whose only previous Group 1 win was against a forgettable field in Singapore and who then lost his next start. Arguably this was among the weakest DWC fields in the race's history, yet some of the best older US-raced horses of 2009 couldn't compete. That doesn't say much about the quality of older US males. Or would you like to also bring up the best older fillies and mares of 2009 like, for example, BC Ladies Classic winner Life Is Sweet, who in her next start was easily handled by a filly that had never won a graded race and which was subsequently trounced when she tried older males? Your assessments of "toughest" or "weakest" are simply your opinion and are not necessarily accurate. They are assumptions that you have made in order to support your position. But if you choose to invoke the "who beat whom" argument, those who would use some sort of performance figure instead are equally justified.

It's a common handicapping tool, any proficient bettor will look at how horses are coming into a specific race, and how they exit the race to gauge which races they consider a "key" race. Thus getting a better idea which horses they want to bet or lay off in their next start. Given the Woodward's dreadful 1 for 20 something record, it's an easy call.

[Steve R]

It's a common handicapping tool, any proficient bettor will look at how horses are coming into a specific race, and how they exit the race to gauge which races they consider a "key" race. Thus getting a better idea which horses they want to bet or lay off in their next start. Given the Woodward's dreadful 1 for 20 something record, it's an easy call.
I'm not disputing the existence of that approach, only its effectiveness relative to others. By the same token, one could have used Racing Post Ratings for the BC Classic and anticipated that the prospects for BC Classic runners in the DWC were questionable because their lifetime best performances did not match up well with those of previous DWC winners. But regardless, nothing that happens after a race absolutely determines the quality of the race itself. Beyer had Macho Again entering the Woodward off a 105 in the Whitney and gave him a 109. Bullsbay paired 107s. The Racing Post had Macho Again going from a 122 to a 125 and Bullsbay pairing 122s. My scale is different with the more negative the number the better and one length equal to 4 points at 9f. I had Macho Again going from -78 to -90 (a 3-length improvement) and Bullsbay pairing -84s. So we have three independent performance assessments using unrelated methodologies all arriving at essentially the same conclusion. Whatever happened later says nothing at all about the quality of performance of the Woodward field. No one is evaluating the place of Macho Again and Bullsbay in racing history. What they did in the Woodward stands on its own merits.

[Buckeye]

how bout this approach: beat somebody on a racetrack. Pretty elementary. Cigar never did that by the way, except maybe in Dubai one time. Secretariat did so many times and He would take Cigar apart. Zenyatta has her work STILL ahead of as I said. Fortunately for her Rachel is still out there so go get her.

[ghostyapper]

Fortunately for her Rachel is still out there so go get her.

Why should she? Zenyatta is the reigning BC classic winner and is pointing for the same race this year. Rachel has not won since september. And the connections have already balked once when a showdown was on the table. Yea yea I know she wasn't fit and it was a terrible injustice to suggest an april race blah blah.

[Kimsus]

I'm not disputing the existence of that approach, only its effectiveness relative to others. By the same token, one could have used Racing Post Ratings for the BC Classic and anticipated that the prospects for BC Classic runners in the DWC were questionable because their lifetime best performances did not match up well with those of previous DWC winners. But regardless, nothing that happens after a race absolutely determines the quality of the race itself. Beyer had Macho Again entering the Woodward off a 105 in the Whitney and gave him a 109. Bullsbay paired 107s. The Racing Post had Macho Again going from a 122 to a 125 and Bullsbay pairing 122s. My scale is different with the more negative the number the better and one length equal to 4 points at 9f. I had Macho Again going from -78 to -90 (a 3-length improvement) and Bullsbay pairing -84s. So we have three independent performance assessments using unrelated methodologies all arriving at essentially the same conclusion. Whatever happened later says nothing at all about the quality of performance of the Woodward field. No one is evaluating the place of Macho Again and Bullsbay in racing history. What they did in the Woodward stands on its own merits.

Then shouldn't the Breeders Cup Classic last year be held in the same regard if not higher? Especially the way Summer Bird headed into the Classic with most likely his best performance to date, he only managed a respectable 4th place finish. If Beyers are your gauge then he was very much in the same ballpark of his figs prior to the classic, all in all I'm not sure using beyer speed figures is the most accurate way of analysing the quality of races, they should be used as a handicapping tool 1st and foremost. Alot of horses run high numbers, someone mentioned Cool Coal Mine beyered 107 in an allw race prior to the Woodward, however this horse almost always fails when stepped up into graded stakes company. You can't equate that race in the same way as the Woodward. Somewhere we have to use logic, I respectfully disagree this Woodward was anything close to a lights out race. Again, I give Rachel credit for running her heart out, in the scope of the pace dynamics going against her yes, it was a good performance; however it would be hardpressed for anyone to claim if a closer with more quality than Macho Again was in the field, she still would have won. That is the part of the equation we leave for opinion, and my opinion has been made how these horses have performed before and after the race.

[tucker6]

Zenyatta is the reigning BC classic winner and is pointing for the same race this year.
I'll make a side bet with you that Zenyatta never sees Kentucky soil for the BCC this fall. What's the wager??

[Dahoss9698]

how bout this approach: beat somebody on a racetrack. Pretty elementary. Cigar never did that by the way, except maybe in Dubai one time. Secretariat did so many times and He would take Cigar apart. Zenyatta has her work STILL ahead of as I said. Fortunately for her Rachel is still out there so go get her.

Cigar never beat anyone on the racetrack? Really?

[Dahoss9698]

Why should she? Zenyatta is the reigning BC classic winner and is pointing for the same race this year. Rachel has not won since september. And the connections have already balked once when a showdown was on the table. Yea yea I know she wasn't fit and it was a terrible injustice to suggest an april race blah blah.

Because Rachel is the reigning HOY. You know, the award Team Zenyatta thinks they can back into with continued uninspiring campaigns. Yea yea I know, Rachel is 0 for 2 this year losing by a combined one length while Zenyatta has beaten the usual collection of tomato cans blah blah.

[wisconsin]

Because Rachel is the reigning HOY. You know, the award Team Zenyatta thinks they can back into with continued uninspiring campaigns. Yea yea I know, Rachel is 0 for 2 this year losing by a combined one length while Zenyatta has beaten the usual collection of tomato cans blah blah.

Sorry,

Rachel is 0 for 2. Spin it any way that you want. Still looks like 0 for 2 on paper. She promised more than she could deliver so far this year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she wasn't ready.....meanwhile, Big Z has not lost. So the point of your response was :rolleyes:

[Dahoss9698]

Sorry,

Rachel is 0 for 2. Spin it any way that you want. Still looks like 0 for 2 on paper. She promised more than she could deliver so far this year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she wasn't ready.....meanwhile, Big Z has not lost. So the point of your response was :rolleyes:

She promised more than she could deliver? To whom?

[Steve R]

Then shouldn't the Breeders Cup Classic last year be held in the same regard if not higher? Especially the way Summer Bird headed into the Classic with most likely his best performance to date, he only managed a respectable 4th place finish. If Beyers are your gauge then he was very much in the same ballpark of his figs prior to the classic, all in all I'm not sure using beyer speed figures is the most accurate way of analysing the quality of races, they should be used as a handicapping tool 1st and foremost. Alot of horses run high numbers, someone mentioned Cool Coal Mine beyered 107 in an allw race prior to the Woodward, however this horse almost always fails when stepped up into graded stakes company. You can't equate that race in the same way as the Woodward. Somewhere we have to use logic, I respectfully disagree this Woodward was anything close to a lights out race. Again, I give Rachel credit for running her heart out, in the scope of the pace dynamics going against her yes, it was a good performance; however it would be hardpressed for anyone to claim if a closer with more quality than Macho Again was in the field, she still would have won. That is the part of the equation we leave for opinion, and my opinion has been made how these horses have performed before and after the race.
All you've done is confirm how difficult it is to "get it right." You could argue that Summer Bird is one of those that couldn't make the necessary adjustment to an AWS. If you choose to dismiss that possibility you have one scenario. If you accept it you have another. Some, especially horse players, admire consistency and care less about the "numbers" because winning is what matters most. I wouldn't care if Zenyatta won 40 in a row if she never ran a fast race by my standards. Others may be more interested in the physiology behind a performance. They prefer to consider performance based on physical measurement. That's why one group admires Presious Passion while another thinks he's not a legitimate G1 horse. That's why I think Spend a Buck was the best horse I saw in the timeframe between Spectacular Bid and Ghostzapper. And as for the Woodward, of course it wasn't what I believe you mean by "lights out." Even the speed figure advocates will admit that. At the same time, neither was the BC Classic which most figure makers had among the slowest in the last 20 years and which was confused by the inability of any horses coming off the dirt to win a single BC race. My earlier point was that these debates/discussions have no meaningful outcome because the two sides are applying different criteria. In the end, however, I believe you will find that those horses generally considered among the true elites in Thoroughbred racing history not only performed with consistency but were very fast.

[Cardus]

All you've done is confirm how difficult it is to "get it right." You could argue that Summer Bird is one of those that couldn't make the necessary adjustment to an AWS. If you choose to dismiss that possibility you have one scenario. If you accept it you have another. Some, especially horse players, admire consistency and care less about the "numbers" because winning is what matters most. I wouldn't care if Zenyatta won 40 in a row if she never ran a fast race by my standards. Others may be more interested in the physiology behind a performance. They prefer to consider performance based on physical measurement. That's why one group admires Presious Passion while another thinks he's not a legitimate G1 horse. That's why I think Spend a Buck was the best horse I saw in the timeframe between Spectacular Bid and Ghostzapper. And as for the Woodward, of course it wasn't what I believe you mean by "lights out." Even the speed figure advocates will admit that. At the same time, neither was the BC Classic which most figure makers had among the slowest in the last 20 years and which was confused by the inability of any horses coming off the dirt to win a single BC race. My earlier point was that these debates/discussions have no meaningful outcome because the two sides are applying different criteria. In the end, however, I believe you will find that those horses generally considered among the true elites in Thoroughbred racing history not only performed with consistency but were very fast.

Why, specifically?

[wisconsin]

She promised more than she could deliver? To whom?

Everyone, including myself. There is not a poster here that expected her to get beat against those two fields, if you take her ability at face value.

In the same vain, why such negativity towards Zenyatta because of the fields she faces. Not her fault who enters, or does not.

[Cardus]

Everyone, including myself. There is not a poster here that expected her to get beat against those two fields, if you take her ability at face value.

In the same vain, why such negativity towards Zenyatta because of the fields she faces. Not her fault who enters, or does not.

Why are you equating your expectation with some unprovable "promised more than she could deliver?"

[ghostyapper]

Why are you equating your expectation with some unprovable "promised more than she could deliver?"

For anyone to say her losing her first 2 starts of the year was anything but a disappointment is ridiculous, a trait we've come to expect from the rachel drones by now.

In all her starts against males last year her fans always described her as much the best. She starts the year off losing 2x to her own sex and it's a positive? :bang:

[Cardus]

For anyone to say her losing her first 2 starts of the year was anything but a disappointment is ridiculous, a trait we've come to expect from the rachel drones by now.

In all her starts against males last year her fans always described her as much the best. She starts the year off losing 2x to her own sex and it's a positive? :bang:

As you know, I didn't type that losing her first two races this year wasn't a disappointment.

However, I wondered why "she promised more than she could deliver" was used.

Nothing more.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm just now reading through this thread...is this serious, Pace :confused: ...if someone, say, posts something funny...we can't reply with the laughing emoticon? If someone posts something we agree with, or think it's a well said post, and there isn't much more to add...we can't reply with just the thumbs up emoticon?You can reply anyway you'd like...I'm just telling you what cj's pet peeve is...it's his one quirk...I guess depending on his mood, an emoticon-only reply may or may not stay up...kind of adds an exciting element of risk to the whole posting process, don't you think? :lol:

[Cardus]

You can reply anyway you'd like...I'm just telling you what cj's pet peeve is...it's his one quirk...I guess depending on his mood, an emoticon-only reply may or may not stay up...kind of adds an exciting element of risk to the whole posting process, don't you think? :lol:

Is Morse Code acceptable?

[ghostyapper]

As you know, I didn't type that losing her first two races this year wasn't a disappointment.

However, I wondered why "she promised more than she could deliver" was used.

Nothing more.

What is so hard to understand? She was coming off supposedly the greatest 3yo filly season ever and was coming back at 4 bigger, stronger, faster and well rested. A lot of promise that so far as "failed to deliver"

[thaskalos]

I'll make a side bet with you that Zenyatta never sees Kentucky soil for the BCC this fall. What's the wager?? I'd like a piece of that...I'll leave the wager up to you.

[Steve R]

Why, specifically?
Several reasons. Apart from his 15-10-3-2 record he achieved several performances that, to me, put him on a par with the elites. It began with the 1984 BC Juvenile where he set quick fractions and grudgingly gave up the lead near the end to be third beaten just a length and half. Following the race it was learned he had run with two broken knees. At three he won the Cherry Hill Mile by 10 1/2 lengths setting the track record while ridden out. He followed that with a 9 1/2 length romp in the Garden State Stakes getting the 9f in 1:45.4 which I believe until then was the fastest mile-and-an-eighth ever run by a three-year-old around two turns. His Derby may be the most underrated performance in the race's history. He pulled away to a 5- or 6-length lead on the first turn which he maintained to the end while setting the fastest 6f fraction and running the third fastest Derby to that time. His speed literally ground the opposition into the dirt. Beyond that, it turned out to be one of the strongest Derby fields that included juvenile champion Chief's Crown, Tank's Prospect (which set a new Preakness Stakes record in his next start) and two future BC Classic winners (Proud Truth and Skywalker). In the 10f Jersey Derby despite being pushed by a rabbit through 6f in a speed duel in 1:09 flat he repelled two late challenges, one by Creme Fraiche which in his next start won the Belmont Stakes in one of its fastest runnings. Finally, in his only start against older horses he set a Monmouth track record for 9f. Not bad for a colt that overcame two bad knees and had a chronic bleeding problem. Every time I watch the 1985 Derby, it takes my breath away and reminds me of Dubai Millennium's DWC.

[PaceAdvantage]

Let's look at it in a different way. What if Zenyatta had beaten the same horses. (on any surface) How would you have rated the race?I don't think any of the folks currently active in this thread think the Woodward was the best field assembled in 2009.

But you guys have a good time trying to convince others that's what was stated...

Of course, it wasn't AS BAD as some of your Rachel haters like to claim...that's all we're trying to say...

[PaceAdvantage]

I guess facts are actually facts and there is no smart ass response to this....I never said he wasn't FAST. But is he the model of durability to count on this year to take on all comers?

That is very far from being proven...although I guess we'll see more this weekend...

[tucker6]

I'd like a piece of that...I'll leave the wager up to you.
you really think Zenyatta is going to race once she sees the morning dew on the infield grass?? She may collapse at the sight of it.

I like Zenyatta, but her handlers duck and weave like the greatest boxers of all time.

[FenceBored]

Several reasons. Apart from his 15-10-3-2 record he achieved several performances that, to me, put him on a par with the elites. It began with the 1984 BC Juvenile where he set quick fractions and grudgingly gave up the lead near the end to be third beaten just a length and half. Following the race it was learned he had run with two broken knees. At three he won the Cherry Hill Mile by 10 1/2 lengths setting the track record while ridden out. He followed that with a 9 1/2 length romp in the Garden State Stakes getting the 9f in 1:45.4 which I believe until then was the fastest mile-and-an-eighth ever run by a three-year-old around two turns. His Derby may be the most underrated performance in the race's history. He pulled away to a 5- or 6-length lead on the first turn which he maintained to the end while setting the fastest 6f fraction and running the third fastest Derby to that time. His speed literally ground the opposition into the dirt. Beyond that, it turned out to be one of the strongest Derby fields that included juvenile champion Chief's Crown, Tank's Prospect (which set a new Preakness Stakes record in his next start) and two future BC Classic winners (Proud Truth and Skywalker). In the 10f Jersey Derby despite being pushed by a rabbit through 6f in a speed duel in 1:09 flat he repelled two late challenges, one by Creme Fraiche which in his next start won the Belmont Stakes in one of its fastest runnings. Finally, in his only start against older horses he set a Monmouth track record for 9f. Not bad for a colt that overcame two bad knees and had a chronic bleeding problem. Every time I watch the 1985 Derby, it takes my breath away and reminds me of Dubai Millennium's DWC.

Well argued.

[Cardus]

Several reasons. Apart from his 15-10-3-2 record he achieved several performances that, to me, put him on a par with the elites. It began with the 1984 BC Juvenile where he set quick fractions and grudgingly gave up the lead near the end to be third beaten just a length and half. Following the race it was learned he had run with two broken knees. At three he won the Cherry Hill Mile by 10 1/2 lengths setting the track record while ridden out. He followed that with a 9 1/2 length romp in the Garden State Stakes getting the 9f in 1:45.4 which I believe until then was the fastest mile-and-an-eighth ever run by a three-year-old around two turns. His Derby may be the most underrated performance in the race's history. He pulled away to a 5- or 6-length lead on the first turn which he maintained to the end while setting the fastest 6f fraction and running the third fastest Derby to that time. His speed literally ground the opposition into the dirt. Beyond that, it turned out to be one of the strongest Derby fields that included juvenile champion Chief's Crown, Tank's Prospect (which set a new Preakness Stakes record in his next start) and two future BC Classic winners (Proud Truth and Skywalker). In the 10f Jersey Derby despite being pushed by a rabbit through 6f in a speed duel in 1:09 flat he repelled two late challenges, one by Creme Fraiche which in his next start won the Belmont Stakes in one of its fastest runnings. Finally, in his only start against older horses he set a Monmouth track record for 9f. Not bad for a colt that overcame two bad knees and had a chronic bleeding problem. Every time I watch the 1985 Derby, it takes my breath away and reminds me of Dubai Millennium's DWC.

Great response.

One question: do you mean that he exited the BC Juvenile with two broken knees?

[PaceAdvantage]

It's a common handicapping tool, any proficient bettor will look at how horses are coming into a specific race, and how they exit the race to gauge which races they consider a "key" race. Thus getting a better idea which horses they want to bet or lay off in their next start. Given the Woodward's dreadful 1 for 20 something record, it's an easy call.Its most effective handicapping use is in evaluating maiden races and fields of younger, less experienced horses, is it not? Your better key races tend to come out of those ranks, do they not?

To apply these same standards when judging the Woodward, instead of judging it by the achievements, earnings and speed figures of the entrants COMING INTO the race is mere "spinning" in my opinion. But we're all guilty of that kind of thing now and then...

[cj]

Why, specifically?

I didn't make figures at the time, but I found out the hard way he was a special horse. Being from Maryland, I Am The Game was being hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He went to New Jersey, and we followed him to Garden State Park for the Cherry Hill Mile. IATG was a very good horse, but he clearly was way, way over his head with Spend A Buck.

After that race, my friends and I started following him big time. He again crushed I Am The Game again in the Garden State Stakes. He ran second both times if memory serves, but he was double digit lengths behind.

I remember betting Spend A Buck in the Derby (I think my last winner before War Emblem!) and having quite the thrill before heading off to basic training. It was the last race I watched for probably a year.

[Dahoss9698]

Everyone, including myself. There is not a poster here that expected her to get beat against those two fields, if you take her ability at face value.

In the same vain, why such negativity towards Zenyatta because of the fields she faces. Not her fault who enters, or does not.

I'm not really getting the correlation. You act as though she has been up the track this year. Yes, I expected her to win each race and I have yet to see the same sort of turn of foot on the turns that we saw last year. Maybe she isn't capable of running that type of race anymore. There could be a variety of different reasons for this.

My negativity isn't towards Zenyatta herself. For the millionth time I think she's a very good, maybe great mare. My issue is with her connections who prefer to keep her hidden away in order to keep her undefeated, because it seems like an ego thing at this point. I don't expect her to be shuttled all across the US in some sort of farewell tour, but there is no reason not to race against males if they are going to stay in California.

All timers become all timers by taking on the best, not everytime, but certainly more than once a year. There is nothing to be afraid of when it comes to older males in California, which makes the decision to avoid the Hollywood Gold Cup all the more puzzling. I just want to see Zenyatta allowed to prove herself on more than one occasion. Her Classic performance, as good as it was, was one performance. When you think of the greats in just the last couple of years, you can look at many of their performances as great efforts.

Holy Bull had the Met Mile, Travers and Woodward among others.
Cigar has the NYRA (now Cigar) Mile, Oaklawn Handicap, Hollywood Gold Cup, BC Classic and others.

I realize Zenyatta is a female and I'm comparing her to male greats. However we live in an era where the older male ranks aren't what they used to be. Think about a sprinter like Xtra Heat. Brillaint against her own sex, but didn't you really get to respect her ability when she ran so valiantly in the BC Sprint?

[bisket]

pa and cj thanks for keeping the thread open :ThmbUp:

[cj]

pa and cj thanks for keeping the thread open :ThmbUp:

While that is nice to say, it isn't like we go around closing threads at the drop of a hat. I would say a very, very, very small percentage of threads here ever get deleted or even edited. The percentage is probably less than 1/10th of 1%.

[Headbanger]

How about Goldikova...who takes on all comers and is good enough to win when she doesn't have great setups, when the race isn't perfect for her meaning not at her perfect distance, etc...you want to see a great horse, Goldikova is a great horse. Goldikova faces every battle, she battles in every war, goes wherever she has to go to face the best, Goldikova is a great filly.

For all the Zenyatta fans, and this is a serious question, do you view Zenyatta as a better filly/mare than Personal Ensign?

[thaskalos]

How about Goldikova...who takes on all comers and is good enough to win when she doesn't have great setups, when the race isn't perfect for her meaning not at her perfect distance, etc...you want to see a great horse, Goldikova is a great horse. Goldikova faces every battle, she battles in every war, goes wherever she has to go to face the best, Goldikova is a great filly.

For all the Zenyatta fans, and this is a serious question, do you view Zenyatta as a better filly/mare than Personal Ensign? YES!!

[Headbanger]

YES!!

Which is laughable if you consider Zenyatta a better filly than Personal Ensign who retired undefeated, and also beat what was probably the best Distaff field in the history of the race and a better field than what Zenyatta faced in last year's classic, as the 1988 Distaff included 7 or 8 Grade 1 winners and 9 graded stakes winners of races such as the Mother Goose, Coaching Club American Oaks, Ashland, Spinster, and the 1988 Kentucky Derby winner herself, Winning Colors. Personal Ensign would have ate Zenyatta for lunch.

[thaskalos]

Which is laughable if you consider Zenyatta a better filly than Personal Ensign who retired undefeated, and also beat what was probably the best Distaff field in the history of the race and a better field than what Zenyatta faced in last year's classic, as the 1988 Distaff included 7 or 8 Grade 1 winners and 9 graded stakes winners of races such as the Mother Goose, Coaching Club American Oaks, Ashland, Spinster, and the 1988 Kentucky Derby winner herself, Winning Colors. Personal Ensign would have ate Zenyatta for lunch. As usual, you are wrong my friend. If the 1988 Distaff was such a stellar field...would Personal Ensign go off at odds of 1-2?

[Headbanger]

As usual, you are wrong my friend. If the 1988 Distaff was such a stellar field...would Personal Ensign go off at odds of 1-2?

As usual you show your true unknowledgable colors, because she was simply awesome and one of the best fillies and mares of all-time...Let's review the field since you Zenyattaturds love to talk about fields, i.e., the Woodward Stakes of Rachel:

1988 BC Distaff:

Winning Colors: G1 Samta Anita Oaks winner, G1 Santa Anita Derby winner, G1 Kentucky Derby winner, 3rd in the G1 Preakness, 2nd in the G1 Maskette to Personal Ensign, 2nd in the G1 BC Distaff. 2nd in the G1 Las Virgenes. Champion 3YO filly of 1988. Another horse who would have drowned Zenyatta.

Goodbye Halo: G1 Hollywood Starlet winner, G1 Demoiselle Stakes winner, G1 Coaching Club American Oaks winner, G1 Mother Goose Stakes winner, G1 Kentucky Oaks winner, G1 Las Virgenes winner, G3 Santa Ynez winner, 3rd in the G1 BC Distaff, 3rd in the G1 Santa Anita Oaks.

Sham Say: G1 Ruffian Handicap winner, 3rd in the G1 Beldame Stakes, and 3rd in the G1 Maskette Stakes, 6 time Maryland Stakes winner.

Classic Crown: G1 Frizette Stakes winner, G1 Gazzelle Handicap winner, 2nd in the G1 Beldame Stakes, 2nd in the G1 Ruffian Handicap, 3rd in the G1 Test Stakes.

Hail a Cab: Dogwood Stakes winner, Bourbonette winner, G1 Spinster Stakes winner, 3rd in the G1 Apple Blossom Handicap.

Empitome: G1 Breeders Cup Juvenile Fillies winner, Pocahontas Stakes winner, 2nd in the G2 Alcibides Stakes, 2nd in the G3 Falls City Handicap, 1987 Champion 2YO filly.

Willa on the Move: G1 Ashland Stakes winner, 2nd G1 Spinster Stakes, 2nd G1 Gazelle Handicap, 3rd G1 Kentucky Oaks, 3rd G1 Alabama Stakes, 4 time Listed Stakes winner.

Integra: G2 Hawthorne Handicap winner, 3rd in the G2 Chula Vista Handicap, 3rd in the G1 Spinster Stakes, G3 A Gleam Handicap winner, 3rd G1 Milady Handicap

A sensational field, basically what you guys have done to Rachel, this is massively better than any field Zenyatta has EVER faced. Just for those of you who believe that the 1988 BC Distaff field wasn't the best ever, for those of you keeping score at home, that was 7 G1 winners behind Personal Ensign, and all 8 were at least G2 Stakes winners, including 2 Champions behind her and a horse in Goodbye Halo who probably would have been a Champion had it not been for Winning Colors. So the Final Recap is 8 G1 Winners, 9 G2 or better winners, 3 Champions in the race and one who would have been any other year. Find me a better edition of the BC Distaff...

[thaskalos]

As usual you show your true unknowledgable colors, because she was simply awesome and one of the best fillies and mares of all-time...Let's review the field since you Zenyattaturds love to talk about fields, i.e., the Woodward Stakes of Rachel:

1988 BC Distaff:

Winning Colors: G1 Samta Anita Oaks winner, G1 Santa Anita Derby winner, G1 Kentucky Derby winner, 3rd in the G1 Preakness, 2nd in the G1 Maskette to Personal Ensign, 2nd in the G1 BC Distaff. 2nd in the G1 Las Virgenes. Champion 3YO filly of 1988. Another horse who would have drowned Zenyatta.

Goodbye Halo: G1 Hollywood Starlet winner, G1 Demoiselle Stakes winner, G1 Coaching Club American Oaks winner, G1 Mother Goose Stakes winner, G1 Kentucky Oaks winner, G1 Las Virgenes winner, G3 Santa Ynez winner, 3rd in the G1 BC Distaff, 3rd in the G1 Santa Anita Oaks.

Sham Say: G1 Ruffian Handicap winner, 3rd in the G1 Beldame Stakes, and 3rd in the G1 Maskette Stakes, 6 time Maryland Stakes winner.

Classic Crown: G1 Frizette Stakes winner, G1 Gazzelle Handicap winner, 2nd in the G1 Beldame Stakes, 2nd in the G1 Ruffian Handicap, 3rd in the G1 Test Stakes.

Hail a Cab: Dogwood Stakes winner, Bourbonette winner, G1 Spinster Stakes winner, 3rd in the G1 Apple Blossom Handicap.

Empitome: G1 Breeders Cup Juvenile Fillies winner, Pocahontas Stakes winner, 2nd in the G2 Alcibides Stakes, 2nd in the G3 Falls City Handicap, 1987 Champion 2YO filly.

Willa on the Move: G1 Ashland Stakes winner, 2nd G1 Spinster Stakes, 2nd G1 Gazelle Handicap, 3rd G1 Kentucky Oaks, 3rd G1 Alabama Stakes, 4 time Listed Stakes winner.

Integra: G2 Hawthorne Handicap winner, 3rd in the G2 Chula Vista Handicap, 3rd in the G1 Spinster Stakes, G3 A Gleam Handicap winner, 3rd G1 Milady Handicap

A sensational field, basically what you guys have done to Rachel, this is massively better than any field Zenyatta has EVER faced. Just for those of you who believe that the 1988 BC Distaff field wasn't the best ever, for those of you keeping score at home, that was 7 G1 winners behind Personal Ensign, and all 8 were at least G2 Stakes winners, including 2 Champions behind her and a horse in Goodbye Halo who probably would have been a Champion had it not been for Winning Colors. So the Final Recap is 8 G1 Winners, 9 G2 or better winners, 3 Champions in the race and one who would have been any other year. Find me a better edition of the BC Distaff... Are you an adult, or am I wasting my time with you? Why should I find you a better addition of a BC Classic? Let me repeat my question, and I would like you to answer it:

If the 1988 BC Distaff was such a stellar field, would Personal Ensign go off at odds of 1-2?

[Dahoss9698]

Headbanger, I just wrote up nearly the same thing. Hard to take some of these opinions seriously when there really seems to be a lack of historical perspective.

[Dahoss9698]

Are you an adult, or am I wasting my time with you? Why should I find you a better addition of a BC Classic? Let me repeat my question, and I would like you to answer it:

If the 1988 BC Distaff was such a stellar field, would Personal Ensign go off at odds of 1-2?

Umm, because going into the race she was undefeated? So there can't be strong fields if there is a prohibitive favorite? Nonsense...

[thaskalos]

Umm, because going into the race she was undefeated? So there can't be strong fields if there is a prohibitive favorite? Nonsense... Umm, I didn't say it wasn't a strong field. I only said that it was no surprise that Personal Ensign won considering she was 1-2. Anybody who thinks that Personal Ensign would have eaten Zenyatta for lunch is either a child or an idiot.

[Dahoss9698]

Umm, I didn't say it wasn't a strong field. I only said that it was no surprise that Personal Ensign won considering she was 1-2. Anybody who thinks that Personal Ensign would have eaten Zenyatta for lunch is either a child or an idiot.

Here is what you said..

As usual, you are wrong my friend. If the 1988 Distaff was such a stellar field...would Personal Ensign go off at odds of 1-2?

I read that as you questioning how good the field was because Winning Colors was a heavy favorite. This was in response to Headbanger saying the 1988 Distaff was probably the best Distaff field ever. Then you repeated it after you really had no response to Headbanger's post. At no point did you imply the results weren't a surprise because the favorite won.

Nice try.

[thaskalos]

Which is laughable if you consider Zenyatta a better filly than Personal Ensign who retired undefeated, and also beat what was probably the best Distaff field in the history of the race and a better field than what Zenyatta faced in last year's classic, as the 1988 Distaff included 7 or 8 Grade 1 winners and 9 graded stakes winners of races such as the Mother Goose, Coaching Club American Oaks, Ashland, Spinster, and the 1988 Kentucky Derby winner herself, Winning Colors. Personal Ensign would have ate Zenyatta for lunch. Dahoss...this is the quote that I responded to with my comment about Personal Ensign going off at 1-2. The 1988 Distaff was a strong field, but it was not as good as the Zenyatta BC Classic. Giving us a list of Grade 1 and Grade 2 winners in a race does not tell us anything conclusive about the true quality and depth of a field of horses.

[Dahoss9698]

Dahoss...this is the quote that I responded to with my comment about Personal Ensign going off at 1-2. The 1988 Distaff was a strong field, but it was not as good as the Zenyatta BC Classic. Giving us a list of Grade 1 and Grade 2 winners in a race does not tell us anything conclusive about the true quality and depth of a field of horses.

Aside from giving their on track accomplishments, what other method would you suggest to judge the true quality and depth of a field?

[thaskalos]

Here is what you said..



I read that as you questioning how good the field was because Winning Colors was a heavy favorite. This was in response to Headbanger saying the 1988 Distaff was probably the best Distaff field ever. Then you repeated it after you really had no response to Headbanger's post. At no point did you imply the results weren't a surprise because the favorite won.

Nice try. Winning Colors was not the heavy favorite...Personal Ensign was. And the only reason I gave her odds was to show that her victory was no big deal. EVERYBODY expected her to.

[thaskalos]

Aside from giving their on track accomplishments, what other method would you suggest to judge the true quality and depth of a field? I handicap all night and I sleep all day, so I don't mind these late night conversations. But before I answer you I would like you to answer one question of mine...HONESTLY.

Did you think Zenyatta was going to win last year's BC Classic?

[Dahoss9698]

I handicap all night and I sleep all day, so I don't mind these late night conversations. But before I answer you I would like you to answer one question of mine...HONESTLY.

Did you think Zenyatta was going to win last year's BC Classic?

I'm not really sure what that has to do with the discussion. But, if it means you'll answer, no I didn't.

Your turn.

[Dahoss9698]

Winning Colors was not the heavy favorite...Personal Ensign was. And the only reason I gave her odds was to show that her victory was no big deal. EVERYBODY expected her to.

Yeah, that was a mistake on my part. Obviously I know Personal Ensign was the favorite.

I happen to think her winning was a big deal. Her making it back to the races was a big deal.

[Headbanger]

:lol: Dahoss...this is the quote that I responded to with my comment about Personal Ensign going off at 1-2. The 1988 Distaff was a strong field, but it was not as good as the Zenyatta BC Classic. Giving us a list of Grade 1 and Grade 2 winners in a race does not tell us anything conclusive about the true quality and depth of a field of horses.

How can you make the case that the 2009 BC Classic was a better field than the 1988 BC Distaff?

The 2009 BC Classic consisted of the following after Zenyatta:


Gio Ponti: A Grade 1 TURF winner. A turf and synthetic specialist.

Twice Over: A European TURF horse racing in this race because it was on synthetics.

Summer Bird: A good dirt horse but not a great 3YO by any means. Trounced by Rachel Alexandra, and the best of an average to below average lot.

Colonel John: An average, overrated horse who really did nothing as an older horse after he won a thrilling Travers by a nostril against Mambo in Seattle who has done almost nothing since. For that matter, neither did Colonel John.

Richard's Kid: An incredibly average dirt horse who came out West, beat some tomato cans and lost to some tomato cans on synthetics.

Awesome Gem: Who??? Really??? What's his claim to fame, a suckup 3rd against Curlin in the slop at Monmouth? Has he won anything else?

Regal Ransom: A 3YO who ran some good races but no where near top class.

Mine that Bird: The Derby winner but had no business running in the race on the Pro-Ride. Clearly a dirt runner.

Rip Van Winkle: Another TURF horse running only cause the race is on Synthetics.

Einsten: A neat horse but nothing special. Better on the grass than anything.

Giralamo: Not exactly a household name and judging by the way he ran we see that.


Now comparing the 1988 BC Distaff field, to this group of misfits and grass and synthetic specialists is almost like an embarassment to the 8 G1 winners from the 1988 Distaff, in fact, let's break it down more, the 2nd place finisher, the horse who couldn't win the BC Distaff beat the following horses in the 1988 Kentucky Derby, each of these probably would have won the 2009 Breeders Cup Classic or been right there:

Forty Niner
Risen Star
Proper Reality
Regal Classic
Brian's Time
Seeking the Gold
Private Terms
Granacus
Lively One
Kingpost
Purdue King

A really strong Derby field in 1988, and Winning Colors ran very well to beat that group cutting out strong fractions on the front end. And this horse couldn't beat Personal Ensign. Would take Personal Ensign, Winning Colors, and maybe even Goodbye Halo who was unfortunate to be born in the same year as Winning Colors against Zenyatta until Zenyatta proves herself against top class competition on dirt.

[thaskalos]

I'm not really sure what that has to do with the discussion. But, if it means you'll answer, no I didn't.

Your turn. You didn't. OK...I didn't either. The horse was 14-0 and yet, neither of us thought that she was going to win. She wins the race, and instead of getting the credit she deserves, people start knocking her as if her victory was nothing special. The field was suspect, the race wasn't run on a legitimate surface, etc. And then you ask her critics if they thought she would win the race going in...and they say NO! Does this make sense to you?

I liked Personal Ensign. But would she be able to "eat Zenyatta for lunch" like Headbanger stated? Ridiculous!

And you agree with him??

[Dahoss9698]

You didn't. OK...I didn't either. The horse was 14-0 and yet, neither of us thought that she was going to win. She wins the race, and instead of getting the credit she deserves, people start knocking her as if her victory was nothing special. The field was suspect, the race wasn't run on a legitimate surface, etc. And then you ask her critics if they thought she would win the race going in...and they say NO! Does this make sense to you?

I liked Personal Ensign. But would she be able to "eat Zenyatta for lunch" like Headbanger stated? Ridiculous!

And you agree with him??

You managed to avoid my question.

Plenty of people have given her credit for winning the Classic. I did in this thread. I think Personal Ensign would have defeated Zenyatta. I'm not so sure Zenyatta could run down Winning Colors at Churchill. That's my opinion and I could be wrong.

So, aside from looking at on track accomplishments, how else do you suggest we judge field quality?

[gm10]

I don't think any of the folks currently active in this thread think the Woodward was the best field assembled in 2009.

But you guys have a good time trying to convince others that's what was stated...

Of course, it wasn't AS BAD as some of your Rachel haters like to claim...that's all we're trying to say...

I'm not a Rachel hater ... but I think she is a bit overhyped. Zenyatta is more special imo.

[Headbanger]

You didn't. OK...I didn't either. The horse was 14-0 and yet, neither of us thought that she was going to win. She wins the race, and instead of getting the credit she deserves, people start knocking her as if her victory was nothing special. The field was suspect, the race wasn't run on a legitimate surface, etc. And then you ask her critics if they thought she would win the race going in...and they say NO! Does this make sense to you?

I liked Personal Ensign. But would she be able to "eat Zenyatta for lunch" like Headbanger stated? Ridiculous!

And you agree with him??

Well, Personal Ensign ran a 115 Beyer in winning the BC Distaff in 1988 which means that Winning Colors also ran a 115, and Goodbye Halo was 1/2 length behind Winning Colors which means she ran around a 113 beyer, all of which would have been good enough to win this year's Classic, and 9-11 points higher than Zenyatta's best dirt performance, so Zenyatta would have had her work cut out for her at best.

[Headbanger]

Bottom line for me is that while Zenyatta is a really nice horse, and very talented, Personal Ensign and Winning Colors were truly special horses and all time great fillies and mares, and among the gold standard of fillies and mares with Bayakoa, Go For Wand, etc.

[Gorgeous George]

Zenyatta is a wonderfully talented special mare

[andymays]

Zenyatta is a wonderfully talented special mare


There is not question that what you say is true and her connections are a class act as well. It took a lot of courage to call out synthetic surfaces. John Shireffs was even quoted as saying he hated them.


All people want to see is for Zenyatta to max out against top competition on dirt. Until she does that there will always be doubts.

Even if she loses if and when she tries it, if she runs a credible second or third and makes it close she will gain respect and not lose respect for taking the shot.

[tucker6]

I'm not a Rachel hater ... but I think she is a bit overhyped. Zenyatta is more special imo.
I'll do you one better and say that both are overhyped. However, Rachel did something last year that hadn't been done in decades, if ever, and that's beat older males as a 3 year old filly. That was special, along with the Preakness, even if she may not be special anymore. Outside the BCC, Zenyatta has done nothing. Period. End of story. It would help the Zenyatites in their arguments if they would at least acknowledge this lack of competition on Zenyatta's part. Zenyatta gets credit for winning the BCC, even if I believe she was only facing a couple other horses with a chance to win. The setup for the BCC was slanted severely in her favor, but she still had to win it, so I give her the credit, but not the "all-time" label.

[gm10]

I'll do you one better and say that both are overhyped. However, Rachel did something last year that hadn't been done in decades, if ever, and that's beat older males as a 3 year old filly. That was special, along with the Preakness, even if she may not be special anymore. Outside the BCC, Zenyatta has done nothing. Period. End of story. It would help the Zenyatites in their arguments if they would at least acknowledge this lack of competition on Zenyatta's part. Zenyatta gets credit for winning the BCC, even if I believe she was only facing a couple other horses with a chance to win. The setup for the BCC was slanted severely in her favor, but she still had to win it, so I give her the credit, but not the "all-time" label.

Zenyatta did one better. She beat the international males in the Classic. That has never been done. And it's easy to downplay the BC field. Truth is that it was one of the most accomplished of recent years, however.

[FenceBored]

I'm not a Rachel hater ... but I think she is a bit overhyped. Zenyatta is more special imo.

You just say that because Zen runs on rubber. If their surfaces were reversed so would your opinion.

[tucker6]

Zenyatta did one better. She beat the international males in the Classic. That has never been done. And it's easy to downplay the BC field. Truth is that it was one of the most accomplished of recent years, however.
Number one, I don't see what "international" has to do with anything. A horse is a horse. Secondly, none of those international horses were running on their normal surface, and on Zenyatta's home track to boot. Third, I completely disagree that last year's BCC had an accomplished field. Maybe on grass and dirt they were accomplished, but on synthetics, they proved to be average. For these reasons, I can't rate Zenyatta's win as anything really special. She ran her race against a group of males that for the most part were not racing on their normal surface. Like I said, she gets credit for winning, but in retrospect, it doesn't take my breath away.

I respect your opinion, but I guess we're looking at two different measurement tools to form our opinions. Thus, we disagree.

[Bobzilla]

:lol:

How can you make the case that the 2009 BC Classic was a better field than the 1988 BC Distaff?

The 2009 BC Classic consisted of the following after Zenyatta:


Gio Ponti: A Grade 1 TURF winner. A turf and synthetic specialist.

Twice Over: A European TURF horse racing in this race because it was on synthetics.

Summer Bird: A good dirt horse but not a great 3YO by any means. Trounced by Rachel Alexandra, and the best of an average to below average lot.

Colonel John: An average, overrated horse who really did nothing as an older horse after he won a thrilling Travers by a nostril against Mambo in Seattle who has done almost nothing since. For that matter, neither did Colonel John.

Richard's Kid: An incredibly average dirt horse who came out West, beat some tomato cans and lost to some tomato cans on synthetics.

Awesome Gem: Who??? Really??? What's his claim to fame, a suckup 3rd against Curlin in the slop at Monmouth? Has he won anything else?

Regal Ransom: A 3YO who ran some good races but no where near top class.

Mine that Bird: The Derby winner but had no business running in the race on the Pro-Ride. Clearly a dirt runner.

Rip Van Winkle: Another TURF horse running only cause the race is on Synthetics.

Einsten: A neat horse but nothing special. Better on the grass than anything.

Giralamo: Not exactly a household name and judging by the way he ran we see that.


Now comparing the 1988 BC Distaff field, to this group of misfits and grass and synthetic specialists is almost like an embarassment to the 8 G1 winners from the 1988 Distaff, in fact, let's break it down more, the 2nd place finisher, the horse who couldn't win the BC Distaff beat the following horses in the 1988 Kentucky Derby, each of these probably would have won the 2009 Breeders Cup Classic or been right there:

Forty Niner
Risen Star
Proper Reality
Regal Classic
Brian's Time
Seeking the Gold
Private Terms
Granacus
Lively One
Kingpost
Purdue King

A really strong Derby field in 1988, and Winning Colors ran very well to beat that group cutting out strong fractions on the front end. And this horse couldn't beat Personal Ensign. Would take Personal Ensign, Winning Colors, and maybe even Goodbye Halo who was unfortunate to be born in the same year as Winning Colors against Zenyatta until Zenyatta proves herself against top class competition on dirt.


Good perspective in my opinion. Do you have any thoughts as to how the finish order of last year's Classic might have been altered if the event had been contested at Churchill Downs, assuming honest fractions? That's not to suggest that last year's winner could not have beaten the 09 Classic field at CD as I think most of us realize she was in top form at the time and is unarguably very talented relative to most of her contemporaries. In fact I would not have been surprised at all if she had won this event at CD. However, considering that many of the participants in last year's Classic may have had their chances compromised by lack of familiarity, or predisposition, to the AWS, I often wonder to what extent the finish order might have been different.

[gm10]

You just say that because Zen runs on rubber. If their surfaces were reversed so would your opinion.

Why on earth would that happen. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a champion on dirt or turf. I am just in total awe of Zenyatta's career. I was at Santa Anita last November, I have never seen such a captivating performance. The surface was a total non-factor, as it is to many Zenyatta fans.

[Gorgeous George]

There is not question that what you say is true and her connections are a class act as well. It took a lot of courage to call out synthetic surfaces. John Shireffs was even quoted as saying he hated them.


All people want to see is for Zenyatta to max out against top competition on dirt. Until she does that there will always be doubts.

Even if she loses if and when she tries it, if she runs a credible second or third and makes it close she will gain respect and not lose respect for taking the shot.

So your telling me that after Zenyatta wins the BCC on November 6th 2010 at Churchill Downs the Rachel 'Dead Arm Gang' are going to admit that she is not just a special mare but a GREAT mare?

[gm10]

Number one, I don't see what "international" has to do with anything.


Would you rate Goldikova if she had only beaten French fields? Of course not. Champions are crowned in races where the best global horses run. That's why they are called championship races.

Secondly, none of those international horses were running on their normal surface, and on Zenyatta's home track to boot.

She's won 10 grade 1 stakes, on dirt, on synthetic, against males, against females, in 2008, 2009, 2010 and managed to stay unbeaten in the process. If she wins the Classic at CD, will you blame a favourable pace scenario?

Third, I completely disagree that last year's BCC had an accomplished field. Maybe on grass and dirt they were accomplished, but on synthetics, they proved to be average. For these reasons, I can't rate Zenyatta's win as anything really special. She ran her race against a group of males that for the most part were not racing on their normal surface. Like I said, she gets credit for winning, but in retrospect, it doesn't take my breath away.

We all find ways to downgrade performances that we want to downgrade. I guess she will never convince some people.

I respect your opinion, but I guess we're looking at two different measurement tools to form our opinions. Thus, we disagree.

Fair enough.

[gm10]

So your telling me that after Zenyatta wins the BCC on November 6th 2010 at Churchill Downs the Rachel 'Dead Arm Gang' are going to admit that she is not just a special mare but a GREAT mare?

That'll be the start of 80% of the forum members not writing anything here for 2 weeks.

[ghostyapper]

Isn't it amazing how every thread is turned into comparing zenyatta to the all time great females and males in order to knock her? Last year it was comparing her to rachel to knock her but obviously those days are gone ;)

This thread was about rachel and where her next start will be. Right now it's less than 3 weeks away and they still have not commited. I think they are seriously contemplating running in the foster because they can't risk losing to females for the 3rd time in a row but they are wary of Battle Plan and maybe another high cruising speed horse entering.

This is what they do, they carefully examine the possible fields and then enter very late. This myth that they've ever had this "take on all comers" attitude has been just that, a MYTH

[gm10]

Isn't it amazing how every thread is turned into comparing zenyatta to the all time great females and males in order to knock her? Last year it was comparing her to rachel to knock her but obviously those days are gone ;)

This thread was about rachel and where her next start will be. Right now it's less than 3 weeks away and they still have not commited. I think they are seriously contemplating running in the foster because they can't risk losing to females for the 3rd time in a row but they are wary of Battle Plan and maybe another high cruising speed horse entering.

This is what they do, they carefully examine the possible fields and then enter very late. This myth that they've ever had this "take on all comers" attitude has been just that, a MYTH

definitely - they do the same as Zenyatta's connections usually do (except when they agreed to run in the Apple Blossom)
nothing wrong with it, but let's call it what it is at least

[Steve R]

Great response.

One question: do you mean that he exited the BC Juvenile with two broken knees?
My understanding, from an equine vet friend living in Lexington at the time, was that Spend a Buck had fresh bone chips in both knees that were discovered after the race. The BC was run on November 10 and he had the surgery within days so it sounds like an acute situation. I can't imagine they would have run him in the Juvenile had they known about the problem.

BTW, the Derby was Spend a Buck's fourth race in six weeks: March 23 (his 1st start of the year), April 6, April 20 and May 4. You won't see that kind of schedule anymore.

[Kimsus]

Interesting how the thread has morphed into comparing Personal Ensign, to Winning Colors to Zenyatta. I guess the Rachelites are running out of ammo.

[Kimsus]

How about Goldikova...who takes on all comers and is good enough to win when she doesn't have great setups, when the race isn't perfect for her meaning not at her perfect distance, etc...you want to see a great horse, Goldikova is a great horse. Goldikova faces every battle, she battles in every war, goes wherever she has to go to face the best, Goldikova is a great filly.

For all the Zenyatta fans, and this is a serious question, do you view Zenyatta as a better filly/mare than Personal Ensign?

She can be, if she wins the Classic in September, and I stress 'if' there are no givens in horseracing. My question to you is would you?

[Kimsus]

That's why I think Spend a Buck was the best horse I saw in the timeframe between Spectacular Bid and Ghostzapper.

This a legitimate question I am curious to ask you. Does Ghostzapper's well spaced races deter you in your 'best' of timeframe analysis when rating horses? Secondly do you take into consideration any 'edges' the horse may have had when racing as it seems everything Frankel threw out in that 3-4 yr span ran incredibly well. Just as it lowered my opinion on St. Liam, fairly or unfairly because he was associated to Dutrow.

Furthermore, we will have to agree to disagree on using beyers as a gauge of a horses greatness, it is a factor I agree, however it isn't the only factor, infact far from it. I wouldn't say Sinister's Minister or Millenium Wind are 110+ beyer horses, yet it will state that in the lifetime past p's. That is a generic statement I know, but it only is meant to illustrate my point how inaccurate using beyers to measure horses are.

[cj]

She can be, if she wins the Classic in September...

Impossible for her to do.

[Kimsus]

Impossible for her to do.

I am really trying to resist with everything inside of me just who I find impossible winning a race in BC day...

[Wiley]

BTW, the Derby was Spend a Buck's fourth race in six weeks: March 23 (his 1st start of the year), April 6, April 20 and May 4. You won't see that kind of schedule anymore.
Way off topic, but Steve could not agree more on the quality of Spend a Buck and his under appreciation, you hit it on the head with the run down of his career in an earlier post.
I always laugh when the Smarty Jones followers cry about his treatment in the Belmont, just watch a replay of the '85 Jersey Derby to see a real mugging the Bucker took and the guts he showed to hold on for the victory. Lukas put a pure sprinter in there even without a coupling closer to fill in just to keep Spend a Buck from getting the 3 million dollar bonus.

Ghostzapper, Spectacular Bid and Spend a Buck in a race together sounds pretty salty! The Buck runs them off there feet early at a mile and a quarter then holds on in a three way photo victory.

[FenceBored]

Interesting how the thread has morphed into comparing Personal Ensign, to Winning Colors to Zenyatta. I guess the Rachelites are running out of ammo.

Interesting how you're not the first person to post this same thought on this page. I guess the Zenyatta crowd is running out of ammo.

[FenceBored]

I am really trying to resist with everything inside of me just who I find impossible winning a race in BC day...

Hey genius, Zenyatta can't win the BC in September, because the BC isn't in September. That's what cj's talkin' bout.

[Headbanger]

Interesting how you're not the first person to post this same thought on this page. I guess the Zenyatta crowd is running out of ammo.

Look at this way, the Zenyattaturds consider her to already be a special mare, well, here we go then. I threw out some special mares out there, like Personal Ensign and Winning Colors, and I don't think Zenyatta matches up to either one.

[Dahoss9698]

Isn't it amazing how every thread is turned into comparing zenyatta to the all time great females and males in order to knock her? Last year it was comparing her to rachel to knock her but obviously those days are gone ;)

This thread was about rachel and where her next start will be. Right now it's less than 3 weeks away and they still have not commited. I think they are seriously contemplating running in the foster because they can't risk losing to females for the 3rd time in a row but they are wary of Battle Plan and maybe another high cruising speed horse entering.

This is what they do, they carefully examine the possible fields and then enter very late. This myth that they've ever had this "take on all comers" attitude has been just that, a MYTH

Interesting how the thread has morphed into comparing Personal Ensign, to Winning Colors to Zenyatta. I guess the Rachelites are running out of ammo.

What I find interesting is how these discussions work. One side presents their arguement and the other side never really addresses any of the points. They just repeat themselves over and over again, trying to convince themselves no doubt. The smug attitude, by people who clearly have little to no perspective and treat facts as secondary things to uneducated opinions is pretty funny.

The reason we are examining her place in history is because the Zenyattaturds have already placed her amongst the best of all time.

[Headbanger]

In fact, a little more ammo against Zenyatta, let's take a look at who she's beaten in her career:

2008 El Encino Stakes(G2): 2nd-Tough Tiz's Sis, 3rd-Romance is Diane

2008 Apple Blossom(G1): 2nd-Brownie Points, 3rd-Ginger Punch

2008 Milady Handicap(G2): 2nd-Santa Teresita, 3rd-Kris Sis

2008 Vanity Handicap(G1): 2nd-Tough Tiz's Sis, 3rd-Silver Swallow

2008 Clement L. Hirsch Handicap(G2): 2nd-Model, 3rd-Tough Tiz's Sis

2008 Lady's Secret Stakes(G1): 2nd-Hystericalady, 3rd-Santa Teresita

2008 Breeders Cup Distaff(G1): 2nd-Cocoa Beach, 3rd-Music Note

2009 Milady Handicap(G2): 2nd-Life is Sweet, 3rd-Allicansayis Wow

2009 Vanity Handicap(G1): 2nd-Briecat, 3rd-Dawn After Dawn

2009 Clement L. Hirsch Handicap(G1): 2nd-Anabaa's Creation, 3rd-Lethal Heat

2009 Lady's Secret Stakes(G1): 2nd-Lethal Heat, 3rd-Cocoa Beach

2009 Breeders Cup Classic(G1): 2nd-Gio Ponti, 3rd-Twice Over

2010 Santa Margarita Handicap(G1): 2nd-Dance to my Tune, 3rd-Floating Heart

2010 Apple Blossom Handicap(G1): 2nd-Taptam, 3rd-Be Fair

I think Personal Ensign beat more G1 winners in the 1988 Distaff than Zenyatta has beaten in her life as well as Winning Colors beating more G1 winners in the 1988 Derby as well. And we haven't even talked about all-time great fillies/mares like Azeri, Bayakoa, and Go For Wand...

[Dahoss9698]

When you see the list like that, it's pretty funny. One good horse for every 15 tomato cans.

[cj]

I think that might be an insult to tomato cans. The decent horses she did beat were arguably all on surfaces that wouldn't be first preference for each.

[Headbanger]

Interesting how the thread has morphed into comparing Personal Ensign, to Winning Colors to Zenyatta. I guess the Rachelites are running out of ammo.

You Zenyattaturds claim Zenyatta is an all-time great right now, and you people think so little of Rachel Alexandra, who do you want me to compare Zenyatta to, the tomato cans she keeps beating? I'm comparing her to other all-time greats and the obvious observation is that her credentials don't match up.

[cj]

I am really trying to resist with everything inside of me just who I find impossible winning a race in BC day...

It had nothing to do with the horse. The Classic isn't run in September...or even October.

[ghostyapper]

I think Personal Ensign beat more G1 winners in the 1988 Distaff than Zenyatta has beaten in her life as well as Winning Colors beating more G1 winners in the 1988 Derby as well. And we haven't even talked about all-time great fillies/mares like Azeri, Bayakoa, and Go For Wand...

She beat 15 G1 winners in her 2 BC wins alone but don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.

You've yet to offer an opinion on the whole rachel soap opera yet. Where do you think we'll see her next and what do you expect from her in that race?

[ghostyapper]

You Zenyattaturds claim Zenyatta is an all-time great right now, and you people think so little of Rachel Alexandra, who do you want me to compare Zenyatta to, the tomato cans she keeps beating? I'm comparing her to other all-time greats and the obvious observation is that her credentials don't match up.


She beat 15 G1 winners in her 2 BC wins alone but don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.

You've yet to offer an opinion on the whole rachel soap opera yet. Where do you think we'll see her next and what do you expect from her in that race?

Also what did you think of the woodward field that she faced?

[Kimsus]

Hey genius, Zenyatta can't win the BC in September, because the BC isn't in September. That's what cj's talkin' bout.

Obcourse it isn't, you are right for once. Carry on, if you ever have an opinion on a race.

[gm10]

In fact, a little more ammo against Zenyatta, let's take a look at who she's beaten in her career:

2008 El Encino Stakes(G2): 2nd-Tough Tiz's Sis, 3rd-Romance is Diane

2008 Apple Blossom(G1): 2nd-Brownie Points, 3rd-Ginger Punch

2008 Milady Handicap(G2): 2nd-Santa Teresita, 3rd-Kris Sis

2008 Vanity Handicap(G1): 2nd-Tough Tiz's Sis, 3rd-Silver Swallow

2008 Clement L. Hirsch Handicap(G2): 2nd-Model, 3rd-Tough Tiz's Sis

2008 Lady's Secret Stakes(G1): 2nd-Hystericalady, 3rd-Santa Teresita

2008 Breeders Cup Distaff(G1): 2nd-Cocoa Beach, 3rd-Music Note

2009 Milady Handicap(G2): 2nd-Life is Sweet, 3rd-Allicansayis Wow

2009 Vanity Handicap(G1): 2nd-Briecat, 3rd-Dawn After Dawn

2009 Clement L. Hirsch Handicap(G1): 2nd-Anabaa's Creation, 3rd-Lethal Heat

2009 Lady's Secret Stakes(G1): 2nd-Lethal Heat, 3rd-Cocoa Beach

2009 Breeders Cup Classic(G1): 2nd-Gio Ponti, 3rd-Twice Over

2010 Santa Margarita Handicap(G1): 2nd-Dance to my Tune, 3rd-Floating Heart

2010 Apple Blossom Handicap(G1): 2nd-Taptam, 3rd-Be Fair

I think Personal Ensign beat more G1 winners in the 1988 Distaff than Zenyatta has beaten in her life as well as Winning Colors beating more G1 winners in the 1988 Derby as well. And we haven't even talked about all-time great fillies/mares like Azeri, Bayakoa, and Go For Wand...

great line but it isn't true
there were more g1 winners in the classic alone than there were in the distaff 1988

[Kimsus]

You Zenyattaturds claim Zenyatta is an all-time great right now, and you people think so little of Rachel Alexandra, who do you want me to compare Zenyatta to, the tomato cans she keeps beating? I'm comparing her to other all-time greats and the obvious observation is that her credentials don't match up.

Calm down :bang:

You sound like a 'you people' person, take a valium your horse might just win a race this year. :)

[Kimsus]

What I find interesting is how these discussions work. One side presents their arguement and the other side never really addresses any of the points. They just repeat themselves over and over again, trying to convince themselves no doubt. The smug attitude, by people who clearly have little to no perspective and treat facts as secondary things to uneducated opinions is pretty funny.

The reason we are examining her place in history is because the Zenyattaturds have already placed her amongst the best of all time.

Right on cue the namecalling...whatelse is new with you Dahoss... Nothing.

[gm10]

I think that might be an insult to tomato cans. The decent horses she did beat were arguably all on surfaces that wouldn't be first preference for each.

Just a thought but I'm not sure your credibility benefits from calling them 'tomato cans' day after day. It suggests that you are only interested in downgrading Zenyatta and nothing else.

[andymays]

So your telling me that after Zenyatta wins the BCC on November 6th 2010 at Churchill Downs the Rachel 'Dead Arm Gang' are going to admit that she is not just a special mare but a GREAT mare?


I already think she's great.

I want to see her max out against the best on dirt. That's all.

[joanied]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/57166/rachel-alexandra-sharp-in-churchill-workout?source=rss

I don't know how this thread got so into Zenyatta...since the title is about Rachel's connections...oh,well.

Anyway...looks like our HoY is finally really gearing up...she put in a great work and that should tell everyone that has been doubting her 'coming back', that she has been slowly coming around.

So, in referrance to the thread title...let's see how much bobbing & weaving Asmussen & Jackson do now...Rachel is seriously getting ready to rumble :jump:

[Headbanger]

She beat 15 G1 winners in her 2 BC wins alone but don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.

You've yet to offer an opinion on the whole rachel soap opera yet. Where do you think we'll see her next and what do you expect from her in that race?

I don't consider Richard's Kid to be a G1 winner considering he was an allowance class horse on dirt...Gio Ponti is a G1 TURF winner. I don't consider horses who won G1s on Turf or Synthetics true G1 winners when talking about Classic horses.

Personal Ensign beat 7 G1 dirt winners in the 1988 Breeders Cup Classic alone. And then in the 1988 Kentucky Derby let's see what Winning Colors beat:

Forty Niner: 5 time G1 winner, 1987 Champion 2YO Male
Risen Star: 2 time G1 winner, 1988 Champion 3YO Male
Proper Reality: 3 time G1 winner
Regal Classic: Never won a G1, Multiple GSW, 5 times G1 placed, 1987 Champion 2YO Canadian Male
Brian's Time: 2 time G1 winner, 6 times G1 placed
Seeking the Gold: 2 time G1 winner, 8 times G1 placed
Private Terms: G1 winner, 6 time GSW
Jim's Orbit: MGSW, G1 SP
Granacus: G1 winner, G1 SP
Lively One: G1 winner, G1 SP on multiple occasions
Din's Dancer: G1 SP, GSW
Kingpost: GSW, G1 SP
Intensive Command: GSW, G1 SP
Purdue King: GSW, Multiple G1 SP
Sea Trek: GSW, G1 SP

Those are what strong fields look like, 8 G1 winners behind Winning Colors in the Kentucky Derby...Zenyatta has faced nothing like the fields that Winning Colors and Personal Ensign ran against, and as I said before we haven't even mentioned greats like Azeri, Bayakoa, Go For Wand, and how about Genuine Risk...

As for Rachel who knows, but wherever Asmussen puts her hopefully we get to see her best race and it's a win, setting her up for a great 2nd half campaign.

[Headbanger]

Calm down :bang:

You sound like a 'you people' person, take a valium your horse might just win a race this year. :)

Rachel isn't my horse...in fact I am not even a huge Rachel fan. I just find it hilarous the droves of people who put Zenyatta in a class with horses like Personal Ensign, Winning Colors, Azeri, Bayakoa, Go For Wand, Genuine Risk, etc., when she's not on their level at this point in time.

[Kimsus]

I don't consider Richard's Kid to be a G1 winner considering he was an allowance class horse on dirt...Gio Ponti is a G1 TURF winner. I don't consider horses who won G1s on Turf or Synthetics true G1 winners when talking about Classic horses.

Personal Ensign beat 7 G1 dirt winners in the 1988 Breeders Cup Classic alone. And then in the 1988 Kentucky Derby let's see what Winning Colors beat:

Forty Niner: 5 time G1 winner, 1987 Champion 2YO Male
Risen Star: 2 time G1 winner, 1988 Champion 3YO Male
Proper Reality: 3 time G1 winner
Regal Classic: Never won a G1, Multiple GSW, 5 times G1 placed, 1987 Champion 2YO Canadian Male
Brian's Time: 2 time G1 winner, 6 times G1 placed
Seeking the Gold: 2 time G1 winner, 8 times G1 placed
Private Terms: G1 winner, 6 time GSW
Jim's Orbit: MGSW, G1 SP
Granacus: G1 winner, G1 SP
Lively One: G1 winner, G1 SP on multiple occasions
Din's Dancer: G1 SP, GSW
Kingpost: GSW, G1 SP
Intensive Command: GSW, G1 SP
Purdue King: GSW, Multiple G1 SP
Sea Trek: GSW, G1 SP

Those are what strong fields look like, 8 G1 winners behind Winning Colors in the Kentucky Derby...Zenyatta has faced nothing like the fields that Winning Colors and Personal Ensign ran against, and as I said before we haven't even mentioned greats like Azeri, Bayakoa, Go For Wand, and how about Genuine Risk...

As for Rachel who knows, but wherever Asmussen puts her hopefully we get to see her best race and it's a win, setting her up for a great 2nd half campaign.

Again, if Zenyatta wins the BC in February I think it is regardless of how impatient her naysayers are, would she meet your greatest tag? Simple question, what's the answer?

[Kimsus]

Rachel isn't my horse...in fact I am not even a huge Rachel fan. I just find it hilarous the droves of people who put Zenyatta in a class with horses like Personal Ensign, Winning Colors, Azeri, Bayakoa, Go For Wand, Genuine Risk, etc., when she's not on their level at this point in time.

There are no 2 identical roads to greatness, if she faces a field what her fanatical critics deem worthy for her before she retires, what difference does it make if it's done in 1 or 2 racing years or a career that spans into year 3 or 4? The end results are the same.

[OntheRail]

Zenyatta is a wonderfully talented special mare
Yes she can Cha-cha with the best for them... Maybe Moss can get her a spot on Dancing with the Stars. :lol:

But some would like to see her run with the best of them on dirt... win... lose or draw.

But yes a little hard to compare her to Personal Ensign...Winning Colors... Go For Wand. If it's just a matter of wins in a row and not who you run against. We'd have to put Pepper's Pride above Zenyatta. :bang:

[Headbanger]

Again, if Zenyatta wins the BC in February I think it is regardless of how impatient her naysayers are, would she meet your greatest tag? Simple question, what's the answer?

She'd be in the discussion and the group of them if she beats a solid field of legitmate G1 dirt horses in the Classic, but she would still be at the bottom of that 7 horse group, but she'd be right there, if.

[Kimsus]

She'd be in the discussion and the group of them if she beats a solid field of legitmate G1 dirt horses in the Classic, but she would still be at the bottom of that 7 horse group, but she'd be right there, if.

What are the 6 that are ahead of her on that list?

[Headbanger]

What are the 6 that are ahead of her on that list?

Personal Ensign, Winning Colors, Azeri, Bayakoa, Go For Wand, Genuine Risk, and Ruffian as well...so that would be 7.

[ghostyapper]

Rachel isn't my horse...in fact I am not even a huge Rachel fan. I just find it hilarous the droves of people who put Zenyatta in a class with horses like Personal Ensign, Winning Colors, Azeri, Bayakoa, Go For Wand, Genuine Risk, etc., when she's not on their level at this point in time.

Shame you weren't a member here last year. All the drones, even the supposed respected members, already had rachel as the greatest filly EVER. One even compared her to seattle slew :eek:

[Steve R]

Way off topic, but Steve could not agree more on the quality of Spend a Buck and his under appreciation, you hit it on the head with the run down of his career in an earlier post.
I always laugh when the Smarty Jones followers cry about his treatment in the Belmont, just watch a replay of the '85 Jersey Derby to see a real mugging the Bucker took and the guts he showed to hold on for the victory. Lukas put a pure sprinter in there even without a coupling closer to fill in just to keep Spend a Buck from getting the 3 million dollar bonus.

Ghostzapper, Spectacular Bid and Spend a Buck in a race together sounds pretty salty! The Buck runs them off there feet early at a mile and a quarter then holds on in a three way photo victory.
:ThmbUp: I love it!! He may not be the best ever, but he is my personal favorite. And why is he not in the Racing Hall of Fame? Disgraceful!

[joanied]

You can reply anyway you'd like...I'm just telling you what cj's pet peeve is...it's his one quirk...I guess depending on his mood, an emoticon-only reply may or may not stay up...kind of adds an exciting element of risk to the whole posting process, don't you think? :lol:

Do we really need more element of risk in posting :D

[Cardus]

Way off topic, but Steve could not agree more on the quality of Spend a Buck and his under appreciation, you hit it on the head with the run down of his career in an earlier post.
I always laugh when the Smarty Jones followers cry about his treatment in the Belmont, just watch a replay of the '85 Jersey Derby to see a real mugging the Bucker took and the guts he showed to hold on for the victory. Lukas put a pure sprinter in there even without a coupling closer to fill in just to keep Spend a Buck from getting the 3 million dollar bonus.

Ghostzapper, Spectacular Bid and Spend a Buck in a race together sounds pretty salty! The Buck runs them off there feet early at a mile and a quarter then holds on in a three way photo victory.

Spend A Buck over Ghostzapper: Not heresy.

Spend A Buck over Spectacular Bid: Heresy.

[cj]

:ThmbUp: I love it!! He may not be the best ever, but he is my personal favorite. And why is he not in the Racing Hall of Fame? Disgraceful!

A lot, and I mean a whole lot, of feathers were ruffled when this horse skipped the Preakness for the Jersey Derby. Maybe there is some backlash still.

[Steve R]

Spend A Buck over Ghostzapper: Not heresy.

Spend A Buck over Spectacular Bid: Heresy.
Perhaps not on the track, but he kicked Spectacular Bid's ass in the breeding shed.

[classhandicapper]

IMHO.....

For all you figure handicappers unfamiliar with modern class handicapping and evaluating horses and fields in a qualitative way, I'd like to point out they don't run many Grade 1 stakes on synthetic outside the CA circuit and Kee. And when you look at all the Grade 1 synthetic races for fillies, Zenyatta has won most of them over the last few years. So it has basically been impossible for her to beat a lot of Grade 1 synthetic horses. It's been tough to earn that title running against her or avoiding her. ;)

If the 100 best horses in the world were all synthetic runners, there would be very few Grade 1 synthetic horses the way things are organized now!

All that said, IMO you can still evaluate synthetic horses on a qualitative basis by seeing how the most consistent and versatile synthetic horses perform when they switch to turf/dirt and face high quality horses on those surfaces. You can also looks at how the highest quality versatile turf/dirt horses perform when they switch to synthetic to face the best synthetic horses.

I think the turf/synthetic switches are most telling because form seems to translate quite well in many cases and in Europe they seem more willing to train and/or race their elite turfers on synthetic. (of course you can also look at speed figures as long as you make appropriate adjustments, but we are trying to class handicap)

As someone who considers himself reasonably expert at this one area of handicapping (I've been researching and practicing it for the better part of the last 35 years), I think it's very clear that Zenyatta has beaten quite a few very high quality horses in her synthetic races (even though in many cases their speed figures were slower on synthetic). She has also beaten a handful of very weak fields (including that last one in the Apple Blossom), but overall her quality of competition has been reasonably similar to what you would expect from a high level horse.

The real problem is that modern handicappers are so dependent on the numbers they use for dirt racing, they can't classify their way out of a paper bag. And because their numbers don't translate from surface to surface, they can't measure the quality of her opponents properly.

[thaskalos]

Yes she can Cha-cha with the best for them... Maybe Moss can get her a spot on Dancing with the Stars. :lol:

But some would like to see her run with the best of them on dirt... win... lose or draw.

But yes a little hard to compare her to Personal Ensign...Winning Colors... Go For Wand. If it's just a matter of wins in a row and not who you run against. We'd have to put Pepper's Pride above Zenyatta. :bang: Very thoughtful...

[thaskalos]

Again, if Zenyatta wins the BC in February I think it is regardless of how impatient her naysayers are, would she meet your greatest tag? Simple question, what's the answer? Only if she runs a "beyer" of 120+ in the process!

[FenceBored]

There are no 2 identical roads to greatness, if she faces a field what her fanatical critics deem worthy for her before she retires, what difference does it make if it's done in 1 or 2 racing years or a career that spans into year 3 or 4? The end results are the same.

It's not about one field. Broker's Tip beat one field, and while that gets him remembered, it doesn't make him an all time great.

[Kimsus]

Only if she runs a "beyer" of 120+ in the process!

Beyer speed figures were created to measure one race horse against another is by how fast it runs if they theoretcially ran on a standard surface, the problem with this theory is it didn't take into account the introduction of synthetic tracks. They should not be the absolute measure of greatness as it doesn't take into account certain variables associated with racing. Ie. Pace, heart, bad trips, good trips, bad rides, race dynamics ect....furthermore comparing beyers is like comparing banana's and mangos. A monkey could be taught to bet the highest beyer every race. Fortunately for me I like a little more challenge in my daily handicapping than the simplistic approach.

[DRIVEWAY]

Only if she runs a "beyer" of 120+ in the process!

Do you hold all horses to that standard of greatness?

[Wiley]

Spend A Buck over Spectacular Bid: Heresy.
Hard to argue, Bid was definitely more accomplished, 4 year old season for the ages, but Buck is my all-time fav so I'll give him the benefit of the hypothetical doubt.
CJ,
Agree the rift over Buck bypassing the Preakness affected his status. Always thought there was some doubt he would win HOY that year because of it.

[Steve R]

Beyer speed figures were created to measure one race horse against another is by how fast it runs if they theoretcially ran on a standard surface, the problem with this theory is it didn't take into account the introduction of synthetic tracks. They should not be the absolute measure of greatness as it doesn't take into account certain variables associated with racing. Ie. Pace, heart, bad trips, good trips, bad rides, race dynamics ect....furthermore comparing beyers is like comparing banana's and mangos. A monkey could be taught to bet the highest beyer every race. Fortunately for me I like a little more challenge in my daily handicapping than the simplistic approach.
If Beyer figures are unfair to AWSs they shouldn't be used for comparison with dirt. However, you may be assuming all figures discriminate against AWSs. They don't. In my system, which has been in use for 25 years, I incorporate pace and final time into a single number on a scale where the more negative the figure the better.

These are my data for SoCal tracks (DMR, SA and HOL) for the years 2004-2005 (all dirt) and since 2008 (all AWS). They are for the winners of all graded races for older horses on the main track.

2004-2005: Average = -59.5
2008-2010: Average = -57.0

That difference is just over a half length at 8 1/2 or 9f, equivalent to 1 Beyer speed point.

Statistical analysis indicates the difference between the two data sets is not statistically significant (P = 0.27).

As a result, I feel that my figures for Zenyatta are fair and unbiased. Her numbers on AWSs range from -85 to -10 with an average of -60.5. Her two races on dirt average -62.0, suggesting to me she is equally adept on both surfaces.

To put this in perspective, there have been 45 horses since 1999 older than age two with at least five non-turf graded stakes wins. Considering only their figures in those wins (i.e. when at their very best), the leader by far is Ghostzapper with an average of -107.5. The top filly or mare (6th overall) is Beautiful Pleasure with an average of -79.0. Zenyatta ranks 26th with an average of -60.7.

If you believe she runs only as fast as she has to in order to win (a virtually impossible scenario), you will undoubtedly dismiss this analysis. I prefer to evaluate quality using some measure of physiological ability, but that's my choice.

[classhandicapper]

If Beyer figures are unfair to AWSs they shouldn't be used for comparison with dirt. However, you may be assuming all figures discriminate against AWSs. They don't. In my system, which has been in use for 25 years, I incorporate pace and final time into a single number on a scale where the more negative the figure the better.

These are my data for SoCal tracks (DMR, SA and HOL) for the years 2004-2005 (all dirt) and since 2008 (all AWS). They are for the winners of all graded races for older horses on the main track.

2004-2005: Average = -59.5
2008-2010: Average = -57.0

That difference is just over a half length at 8 1/2 or 9f, equivalent to 1 Beyer speed point.

Statistical analysis indicates the difference between the two data sets is not statistically significant (P = 0.27).

As a result, I feel that my figures for Zenyatta are fair and unbiased. Her numbers on AWSs range from -85 to -10 with an average of -60.5. Her two races on dirt average -62.0, suggesting to me she is equally adept on both surfaces.

To put this in perspective, there have been 45 horses since 1999 older than age two with at least five non-turf graded stakes wins. Considering only their figures in those wins (i.e. when at their very best), the leader by far is Ghostzapper with an average of -107.5. The top filly or mare (6th overall) is Beautiful Pleasure with an average of -79.0. Zenyatta ranks 26th with an average of -60.7.

If you believe she runs only as fast as she has to in order to win (a virtually impossible scenario), you will undoubtedly dismiss this analysis. I prefer to evaluate quality using some measure of physiological ability, but that's my choice.

I can't evaluate your numbers because I don't know all details of your system, but it is encouraging that they are more in line than Beyers.

I do have a problem with your last point though. If you think that some horses aren't crossing the finish line with greater degrees of energy in reserve than others and could have run faster if either required or pitted against horses that forced a faster pace, then IMO you do not understand an important part of racing and why some horses accumulate spectacular records despite fluctuating figures.

Horses have different quantities of speed (early or late), stamina and other qualities etc... These plus the race development impact their fractions, final time and margins of victory without necessarily revealing their full potential under more optimal conditions.

I will grant that it is not always easy to tell which horses have those reserves, how much they have etc.. and which will collapse under the incremental demands of stiffer competition, but IMO to deny that this exists is simply wrong.

[Kimsus]

If Beyer figures are unfair to AWSs they shouldn't be used for comparison with dirt. However, you may be assuming all figures discriminate against AWSs. They don't. In my system, which has been in use for 25 years, I incorporate pace and final time into a single number on a scale where the more negative the figure the better.

These are my data for SoCal tracks (DMR, SA and HOL) for the years 2004-2005 (all dirt) and since 2008 (all AWS). They are for the winners of all graded races for older horses on the main track.

2004-2005: Average = -59.5
2008-2010: Average = -57.0

That difference is just over a half length at 8 1/2 or 9f, equivalent to 1 Beyer speed point.

Statistical analysis indicates the difference between the two data sets is not statistically significant (P = 0.27).

As a result, I feel that my figures for Zenyatta are fair and unbiased. Her numbers on AWSs range from -85 to -10 with an average of -60.5. Her two races on dirt average -62.0, suggesting to me she is equally adept on both surfaces.

To put this in perspective, there have been 45 horses since 1999 older than age two with at least five non-turf graded stakes wins. Considering only their figures in those wins (i.e. when at their very best), the leader by far is Ghostzapper with an average of -107.5. The top filly or mare (6th overall) is Beautiful Pleasure with an average of -79.0. Zenyatta ranks 26th with an average of -60.7.

If you believe she runs only as fast as she has to in order to win (a virtually impossible scenario), you will undoubtedly dismiss this analysis. I prefer to evaluate quality using some measure of physiological ability, but that's my choice.

I like the fact you factor in pace into your final number analysis. This to me already makes this a more complete system than Beyer speed figures if your numbers are accurate. For Zenyatta you mentioned you averaged her races to -60.7, what was the highest number did you ever assign her? Did you adjust her numbers because she is frequently a victim of pace as most races are for this surface are, riders have learned and adapted to conserve energy early on and often races on synth are just final 1/4 mile sprints. I do disagree with you when you say it is impossible for horses to not run as fast as they can everytime, for some horses like Rachel yes, they do. Furthermore in your opinion do you think theat Ghostzapper only racing 11 times in his career from 03-05 attributed to his fast races?

[Buckeye]

In fact, a little more ammo against Zenyatta, let's take a look at who she's beaten in her career:

2008 El Encino Stakes(G2): 2nd-Tough Tiz's Sis, 3rd-Romance is Diane

2008 Apple Blossom(G1): 2nd-Brownie Points, 3rd-Ginger Punch

2008 Milady Handicap(G2): 2nd-Santa Teresita, 3rd-Kris Sis

2008 Vanity Handicap(G1): 2nd-Tough Tiz's Sis, 3rd-Silver Swallow

2008 Clement L. Hirsch Handicap(G2): 2nd-Model, 3rd-Tough Tiz's Sis

2008 Lady's Secret Stakes(G1): 2nd-Hystericalady, 3rd-Santa Teresita

2008 Breeders Cup Distaff(G1): 2nd-Cocoa Beach, 3rd-Music Note

2009 Milady Handicap(G2): 2nd-Life is Sweet, 3rd-Allicansayis Wow

2009 Vanity Handicap(G1): 2nd-Briecat, 3rd-Dawn After Dawn

2009 Clement L. Hirsch Handicap(G1): 2nd-Anabaa's Creation, 3rd-Lethal Heat

2009 Lady's Secret Stakes(G1): 2nd-Lethal Heat, 3rd-Cocoa Beach

2009 Breeders Cup Classic(G1): 2nd-Gio Ponti, 3rd-Twice Over

2010 Santa Margarita Handicap(G1): 2nd-Dance to my Tune, 3rd-Floating Heart

2010 Apple Blossom Handicap(G1): 2nd-Taptam, 3rd-Be Fair

I think Personal Ensign beat more G1 winners in the 1988 Distaff than Zenyatta has beaten in her life as well as Winning Colors beating more G1 winners in the 1988 Derby as well. And we haven't even talked about all-time great fillies/mares like Azeri, Bayakoa, and Go For Wand...

you're right. Zenyatta has beaten nobody her entire life and she's getting older . . .

That's the mistake her connections made last year and it only cost her Horse of the Year. Only God can help her if she has lost a step. All of a sudden you want to take on all comers? Ok bring it and we'll see. Rachel did exactly that and did pretty well last year. It may be a "sore subject" and better late than never: You want to be THE BEST? then Stop hiding. This should have happened a year or two ago with her.

[Cratos]

A lot, and I mean a whole lot, of feathers were ruffled when this horse skipped the Preakness for the Jersey Derby. Maybe there is some backlash still.

From what I understood at the time, Spend A Buck skipped the Preakness and subsequently the Belmont because of money. Robert Brennan of Garden State Park had announced a $2 million bonus for a horse that could win the Cherry Hill Mile and Garden State Stakes, then go on to win the Kentucky Derby and Jersey Derby.

Spend A Buck won the first three races in the series and his owner, Dennis Diaz opted to go for the $2M bonus and Spend A Buck didn’t disappoint him as he won the $1M Jersey Derby which allows his owner to collect the $2M bonus.

Irate over the move by Spend A Buck’s owner the three entities of the TC series got together and conceived of a TC bonus in hope that their bonus plan would deter this ever happening again.

[tucker6]

Shame you weren't a member here last year. All the drones, even the supposed respected members, already had rachel as the greatest filly EVER. One even compared her to seattle slew :eek:
I guess you missed the post last year where Zenyatta was elevated to a position above Secretariat. Hyperbole is on both sides.

[ghostyapper]

All of a sudden you want to take on all comers? Ok bring it and we'll see. Rachel did exactly that and did pretty well last year.

There goes that myth again. Rachel's connections did not have a "take on all comers" attitude last year. They carefully managed her campaign and avoided spots where she would have been exposed (travers, jcgc, bc, belmont)

[tucker6]

There goes that myth again. Rachel's connections did not have a "take on all comers" attitude last year. They carefully managed her campaign and avoided spots where she would have been exposed (travers, jcgc, bc, belmont)
Is that different than what Zenyatta's handlers did??

[andymays]

There goes that myth again. Rachel's connections did not have a "take on all comers" attitude last year. They carefully managed her campaign and avoided spots where she would have been exposed (travers, jcgc, bc, belmont)


Zenyatta was carefully managed while travelling to how many States?


Rachel ran in how many States?

[ghostyapper]

Rachel ran in how many States?

Your state argument makes no sense

Rachel took on all comers because she traveled from ny to nj? Baltimore to NY?

[andymays]

Your state argument makes no sense
Rachel took on all comers because she traveled from ny to nj? Baltimore to NY?


Shipping to different venues isn't an issue? :rolleyes:

I think Zenyatta shipped one time and what happened when the track came up a little wet?

I would think that 90% of the board would disagree with you on that.

[ghostyapper]

Is that different than what Zenyatta's handlers did??

Who did he say had a "take on all comers" campaign last year? Try to stay with the class.

[Kimsus]

Zenyatta was carefully managed while travelling to how many States?


Rachel ran in how many States?

That's not fair, I think you know this. All her races were in the East to Mid East. It would be the equivalent of Zenyatta shipping to Arizona.

[andymays]

That's not fair, I think you know this. All her races were in the East to Mid East. It would be the equivalent of Zenyatta shipping to Arizona.


What happened when she shipped to Churchill?

[Kimsus]

What happened when she shipped to Churchill?

You know already, they did ship though.

[andymays]

You know already, they did ship though.


Yes, I guess they were brave for just shipping. :rolleyes:

[Steve R]

I can't evaluate your numbers because I don't know all details of your system, but it is encouraging that they are more in line than Beyers.

I do have a problem with your last point though. If you think that some horses aren't crossing the finish line with greater degrees of energy in reserve than others and could have run faster if either required or pitted against horses that forced a faster pace, then IMO you do not understand an important part of racing and why some horses accumulate spectacular records despite fluctuating figures.

Horses have different quantities of speed (early or late), stamina and other qualities etc... These plus the race development impact their fractions, final time and margins of victory without necessarily revealing their full potential under more optimal conditions.

I will grant that it is not always easy to tell which horses have those reserves, how much they have etc.. and which will collapse under the incremental demands of stiffer competition, but IMO to deny that this exists is simply wrong.
I didn't say different horses couldn't finish with different degrees of reserve energy. I think horses controlling the pace from the front often can have their energy expenditure adjusted at the end of a race depending on the circumstances. My reference was to Zenyatta or any other horse coming from far back. The reason I reject the "running only as fast as she has to" scenario is because no rider on the planet when many lengths back and behind a bunch of horses with a quarter mile to run can ever know how fast the horses in front of him are going to finish. If you're 7 or 8 back and you think your mount can get a final quarter in 23, you can't know for sure whether or not there is a horse ahead capable of getting it in 24 or 24.1. At the quarter pole your horse is 80 or 90 feet from the front and it is impossible in any reasonably sized field to make that judgment. IOW, horses coming from far back better be all out to the wire or 1) the rider risks making a gross misjudgment or 2) the race is fixed.

[BluegrassProf]

You know already, they did ship though.:D
Badoom-crash!

[Buckeye]

just to simplify things for some of you, ship to the Moon and beat somebody. Rachel would be a nice start. Then win another Breeders' Cup race at age Six.

My opinion is she can't do either one.

[PaceAdvantage]

That'll be the start of 80% of the forum members not writing anything here for 2 weeks.Are you kidding? Wow, you are more inaccurate in your observations than I ever thought...

You think this board is 80% Rachel supporters? Holy shite!

[andymays]

just to simplify things for some of you, ship to the Moon and beat somebody. Rachel would be a nice start. Then win another Breeders' Cup race at age Six.

My opinion is she can't do either one.


Rachel won in a landslide. Are you saying the voters are just stupid or biased or what. One big reason Rachel won in a landslide is that Zenyatta stayed in California all year.

[PaceAdvantage]

Last year it was comparing her to rachel to knock her but obviously those days are gone ;)Good thing you winked. Or else I would have asked you if she was retired and I missed it (I know, you'll come back with "might as well be"). I'm one step ahead...as always...

[Kimsus]

:D
Badoom-crash!

I'm sure all the Racelites can do a sun dance next time he fakes a ship in for Zenyatta, he can then reinvent the 'all options are open' retort that all seems to be perfectly acceptable around here.

[Buckeye]

Rachel won in a landslide. Are you saying the voters are just stupid or biased or what. One big reason Rachel won in a landslide is that Zenyatta stayed in California all year.

Andy.

I'm saying the voters spoke and they were correct. The only way I or you or they could be wrong is up to Zenyatta.

[thaskalos]

just to simplify things for some of you, ship to the Moon and beat somebody. Rachel would be a nice start. Then win another Breeders' Cup race at age Six.

My opinion is she can't do either one. Rachel is a little hard to find right now...as for the BC Classic, just wait and you'll see...

[Kimsus]

Andy.

I'm saying the voters spoke and they were correct. The only way I or you or they could be wrong is up to Zenyatta.

Yes, all options are open.

[ghostyapper]

Shipping to different venues isn't an issue? :rolleyes:

I think Zenyatta shipped one time and what happened when the track came up a little wet?

I would think that 90% of the board would disagree with you on that.

Can you answer me a question? If zenyatta only shipped once how many times did rachel ship last year?

[andymays]

Andy.

I'm saying the voters spoke and they were correct. The only way I or you or they could be wrong is up to Zenyatta.


I think the whole argument is pretty simple and last year Rachel did the most and deserved the award. That sucks for Zenyatta because she is great but Rachel deserved it last year based upon her accomplishments like number of races won and in different states. Shipping to different venues and winning that number of races is no easy task.

[ghostyapper]

You think this board is 80% Rachel supporters? Holy shite!

Yea he's off base there. More like 90%. And don't forget how many are still hiding this year after her terrible start. You know if she ever wins they'll all come out of the woodwork

[andymays]

Can you answer me a question? If zenyatta only shipped once how many times did rachel ship last year?


Don't know exactly and I'm not looking it up and doing the research.

Have at it.

[thaskalos]

Can you answer me a question? If zenyatta only shipped once how many times did rachel ship last year? Ghostyapper...are they still comparing Rachel to Zenyatta?

[PaceAdvantage]

This is what they do, they carefully examine the possible fields and then enter very late.How does this work exactly...this "enter very late" thing. Maybe I'm mistaken, but don't these graded stakes races Rachel has been running in require nominations? They do in NY...and the nomination period usually closes a few weeks before the race (two weeks perhaps?) Of course, you can always supplement for a fee if you're late...

I can't recall Rachel being supplemented to any of her graded stakes races, so maybe you can tell me how this whole "enter very late" thing works...

Nobody can read the list of nominations and figure out where she might be running next? Do they nominate to every graded stake in the country to try and throw people off their trail?

Such nonsense...it never stops...

[ghostyapper]

Don't know exactly and I'm not looking it up and doing the research.

Have at it.

Can you just give me a ballpark off the top of your head? I won't harp on you being off by a couple in your answer

[PaceAdvantage]

Interesting how the thread has morphed into comparing Personal Ensign, to Winning Colors to Zenyatta. I guess the Rachelites are running out of ammo.You're seriously in danger of becoming nothing but a common message board flamer at this point...

[Buckeye]

I'm sure all the Racelites can do a sun dance next time he fakes a ship in for Zenyatta, he can then reinvent the 'all options are open' retort that all seems to be perfectly acceptable around here.

Fake this. Show up and beat somebody such a last year's HOY. If not, don't dare lose any other races, then you MIGHT be considered. Even Ghostzapper would have dusted her. She's been hiding too long and I mean WAY too long unfortunately. How bout Easy Goer or Black Tie Affair? The list is endless!

[andymays]

Can you just give me a ballpark off the top of your head? I won't harp on you being off by a couple in your answer


I told you I'm not going to do the research. I went through that junk with the sythetic thing too many times.

It's a B.S. tactic when you're losing an argument.

[thaskalos]

I think the whole argument is pretty simple and last year Rachel did the most and deserved the award. That sucks for Zenyatta because she is great but Rachel deserved it last year based upon her accomplishments like number of races in different states. Shipping to different venues and winning that number of races is no easy task. We agree with your comment. The question is this: At this point and time...is Zenyatta a better horse than Rachel?

I thought the answer was obvious, but reading some of the posters here has left me confused.

I mean...didn't even PA recently admit that Rachel is avoiding Zenyatta this year?

[andymays]

We agree with your comment. The question is this: At this point and time...is Zenyatta a better horse than Rachel?

I thought the answer was obvious, but reading some of the posters here has left me confused.

I mean...didn't even PA recently admit that Rachel is avoiding Zenyatta this year?

Yes, Zenyatta is way better now. Not last year.

[Steve R]

I like the fact you factor in pace into your final number analysis. This to me already makes this a more complete system than Beyer speed figures if your numbers are accurate. For Zenyatta you mentioned you averaged her races to -60.7, what was the highest number did you ever assign her? Did you adjust her numbers because she is frequently a victim of pace as most races are for this surface are, riders have learned and adapted to conserve energy early on and often races on synth are just final 1/4 mile sprints. I do disagree with you when you say it is impossible for horses to not run as fast as they can everytime, for some horses like Rachel yes, they do. Furthermore in your opinion do you think theat Ghostzapper only racing 11 times in his career from 03-05 attributed to his fast races?
Her best number on my system is -85 in the 2008 Hirsch followed by a -82 in the 2008 Apple Blossom. Those would be approximately in the range of Beyer 112-113.

I don't do any adjustments other than variants. The variants are calculated based on the entire par pace line for the class and distance of the race. IOW the pace line of the race is compared to the par pace line and the variant is derived from that. It's similar to the traditional final time variant method but uses par pace lines instead of par final times. The point is that I don't need to separately adjust for pace under AWS conditions because I am already using the par pace lines for the AWS tracks.

I have explained my position on "run as fast as they can everytime" in an earlier reply to classhandicapper at 6:48PM today.

Finally, I think Ghostzapper ran fast because he was one of the most talented Thoroughbreds in racing history. When you get 6 1/2 in 1:14.3, 7 in 1:20.2, 8 in 1:33.1 and 10 in 1:59 you're just good. Those are Dr. Fager-like times and I consider him the best since Spectacular Bid.

[ghostyapper]

I told you I'm not going to do the research. I went through that junk with the sythetic thing too many times.

It's a B.S. tactic when you're losing an argument.

Ok so let me get this straight. You are lauding rachels campaign for shipping so much and you can't even tell me a ballpark figure of how many times she shipped? Why are you ducking the question like this? It really doesn't require much research at all. In fact if you have such a good grasp on the topic you shouldn't even have to look it up at all.

[PaceAdvantage]

Just a thought but I'm not sure your credibility benefits from calling them 'tomato cans' day after day.You should really not be questioning another's credibility...

[andymays]

Ok so let me get this straight. You are lauding rachels campaign for shipping so much and you can't even tell me a ballpark figure of how many times she shipped? Why are you ducking the question like this? It really doesn't require much research at all. In fact if you have such a good grasp on the topic you shouldn't even have to look it up at all.

Because you're just being a pain in the ass because the shipping thing is a valid point.

Shipping and winning aint easy. Especially as many times as Rachel did it. ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

Shame you weren't a member here last year. All the drones, even the supposed respected members, already had rachel as the greatest filly EVER. One even compared her to seattle slew :eek:Again, not true. Not even close. As gm10 likes to say, you're doing your credibility no good...but who needs credibility when you're posting anonymously on a message board...(yup, me too).

WHO HAD HER AS THE GREATEST FILLY EVER? Post the link of "respected members" writing this.

Or did they say she ran one of the greatest, if not GREATEST CAMPAIGNS ever by a THREE-YEAR-OLD filly. A far cry from "GREATEST FILLY EVER." But then again, you already know this...

As for the Seattle Slew thing...as they say in court..."asked and answered."