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View Full Version : TheTimes...They Are A'changin


sonnyp
05-21-2010, 03:39 PM
look around with a realistic eye at the condition of horseracing. california, new york, kentucky big trouble. maryland...dead. other states that are not hemoraging are in that position through artificial life support of slots and it's simply a matter of time before they flatline. new york, couldn't even fill 2 n.y. bred stake races on a card.

there are many people who have vested interests in the world of horseracing. trainers,owners, breeders etc.etc. the problem is their investment is in a "market" that has fewer and fewer consumers. outside of a decreasing population of bettors who's average age is 50 plus and those individuals who make their living in the industry, the average person in the market place simply does not care and has no interest.

the product is overexposed, watered down and, quite frankly, has gotten to the point where it fails to generate excitement in even it's most avid fans and participants. look at the approaching belmont, third leg of the triple crown. last i saw they were talking about 5 serious starters. will that get them out in droves ?

whether it succeeds or not, the only innovative move in the industry by monmoth, has started to convey what should be obvious......cut back !
less will be more. yes, many will not survive but as in nature, those left standing will be better off. the product will improve and the level of interest will increase.

cut back on breeding inferior horses, cut back on racing dates with lousy cards of 5 horse fields, cut back on the take out that leaves the bettor with no chance of turning a profit...cut back,cut back,cut back.

look at the card assembled at monmouth. 13 races, full fields, one that bettors feel they can eagerly participate in and have a chance. the handle will be up, the horsemen are excited by higher purses, and fans and gamblers will enjoy the added excitement of races with full fields.

let's hope it can sustain itself and it's a tough pill to swallow for those who won't survive but it always goes back to darwin and survival of the fittest rather than subsidizing those with vested interests.

the little guy
05-21-2010, 03:44 PM
These are not simple NY Bred Stakes that failed to fill....they are Stallion Stakes which means the horses have to be sired by stallions standing in NY. It is a very important distinction. Another problem was that each race featured an extraordinarily favored entrant, Fanny Freud and General Maximus, and the few possible opponents were clearly hesitant to take these horses on.

sonnyp
05-21-2010, 04:02 PM
These are not simple NY Bred Stakes that failed to fill....they are Stallion Stakes which means the horses have to be sired by stallions standing in NY. It is a very important distinction. Another problem was that each race featured an extraordinarily favored entrant, Fanny Freud and General Maximus, and the few possible opponents were clearly hesitant to take these horses on.


thanks for additional info. still seems kind of sad, though, they couldn't get them to go.

the little guy
05-21-2010, 04:17 PM
The races were combined for a ten horse field on Wednesday.

sonnyp
05-21-2010, 04:21 PM
The races were combined for a ten horse field on Wednesday.

just curious....are both "stick outs" in ?

Stillriledup
05-21-2010, 04:44 PM
look around with a realistic eye at the condition of horseracing. california, new york, kentucky big trouble. maryland...dead. other states that are not hemoraging are in that position through artificial life support of slots and it's simply a matter of time before they flatline. new york, couldn't even fill 2 n.y. bred stake races on a card.

there are many people who have vested interests in the world of horseracing. trainers,owners, breeders etc.etc. the problem is their investment is in a "market" that has fewer and fewer consumers. outside of a decreasing population of bettors who's average age is 50 plus and those individuals who make their living in the industry, the average person in the market place simply does not care and has no interest.

the product is overexposed, watered down and, quite frankly, has gotten to the point where it fails to generate excitement in even it's most avid fans and participants. look at the approaching belmont, third leg of the triple crown. last i saw they were talking about 5 serious starters. will that get them out in droves ?

whether it succeeds or not, the only innovative move in the industry by monmoth, has started to convey what should be obvious......cut back !
less will be more. yes, many will not survive but as in nature, those left standing will be better off. the product will improve and the level of interest will increase.

cut back on breeding inferior horses, cut back on racing dates with lousy cards of 5 horse fields, cut back on the take out that leaves the bettor with no chance of turning a profit...cut back,cut back,cut back.

look at the card assembled at monmouth. 13 races, full fields, one that bettors feel they can eagerly participate in and have a chance. the handle will be up, the horsemen are excited by higher purses, and fans and gamblers will enjoy the added excitement of races with full fields.

let's hope it can sustain itself and it's a tough pill to swallow for those who won't survive but it always goes back to darwin and survival of the fittest rather than subsidizing those with vested interests.


Every dollar the trainers, owners and jockey take is one less dollar the customers get to have. Trainers, owners and jockeys have 'organizations' who back them. Bettors have no voice at all. This is why the pie for the bettors keeps getting smaller. Guys like Frank Stronach wanting to 'sit down wit de horsmen' instead of sitting down with the bettors.

sonnyp
05-21-2010, 04:56 PM
Every dollar the trainers, owners and jockey take is one less dollar the customers get to have. Trainers, owners and jockeys have 'organizations' who back them. Bettors have no voice at all. This is why the pie for the bettors keeps getting smaller. Guys like Frank Stronach wanting to 'sit down wit de horsmen' instead of sitting down with the bettors.


you quoted my original post. i assume you read it. was it your take that i was pro horsemen versus bettors ? i can't imagine you came to that conclusion !

there once was a goose that laid golden eggs. so many people lined up with their hands out that the goose is now near death. if the number of people looking for golden eggs doesn't decrease, that goose is gonna die.

do you get it ?

sonnyp
05-21-2010, 07:27 PM
These are not simple NY Bred Stakes that failed to fill....they are Stallion Stakes which means the horses have to be sired by stallions standing in NY. It is a very important distinction. Another problem was that each race featured an extraordinarily favored entrant, Fanny Freud and General Maximus, and the few possible opponents were clearly hesitant to take these horses on.



NYRA Statement On Warn Notices

Contact: Dan Silver | May 21, 2010 http://s7.addthis.com/button1-email.gif (http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php) http://s7.addthis.com/static/btn/v2/lg-share-en.gif (http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php?v=250&username=nyra) http://www.nyra.com/belmont/stories/images/nyra_logo_2_L.jpg



The New York Racing Association, Inc. (NYRA) announced today that it has provided notice to its employees that it expects to cease racing operations and begin the implementation of plant closures on Wednesday, June 9 at Belmont Park, Saratoga Race Course, and Aqueduct Racetrack. The notices, pursuant to the requirements of the Federal and New York State Workers Adjustment and Retraining Notification Acts (jointly referred to as the WARN Acts), were sent to more than 1,400 NYRA employees on Thursday, May 20 and indicated that layoffs can be expected to begin as early as June 9. Meanwhile, NYRA continues to pursue solutions with the State of New York that may avert the cessation of operations.

Founded in 1955, and franchised to run thoroughbred racing at New York’s three major tracks through 2033, NYRA boasts a lineage that actually stretches back almost 150 years. NYRA tracks are the cornerstone of the state’s thoroughbred business which contributes more than $2 billion annually to New York State’s urban, suburban and rural economy. In 2009, more than 1.6 million people attended the live races at NYRA tracks. Factoring nationwide off-track wagering, the average daily betting handle on NYRA races alone totals more than $9.3 million every race day. NYRA has a vast network of websites, including www.nyra.com (http://www.nyra.com/), www.belmontstakes.com (http://www.belmontstakes.com/), and www.nyragroupsales.com (http://www.nyragroupsales.com/).





do you have additional info on this situation that might be informative or can we just take it at face value ?

thaskalos
05-22-2010, 02:25 AM
If the NYRA cannot make it on its own...the hell with them! No more state hand-outs! The bettors want fewer racetracks and bigger betting pools!

Tom
05-22-2010, 11:39 AM
It is not a handout.
NYOTB has STOLEN the money from them.
And NYS has once again failed to live up to its responsibilities.

Of the three - NYS, NYOTB and NYRA, NYRA is the only one worth saving.

Robert Goren
05-22-2010, 11:52 AM
If I run a 7-11 and get robbed, does the state come in and give me the money the crook took? The answer is no. Even if it was a state employee who did the robbery and the loss would cause me to close, the answer is still no. NYRA is this mess because they have miss managed race tracks for years. They still are not even admitting what the problem is. And nether are people here who are crying about them closing up shop. JMO

Java Gold@TFT
05-22-2010, 11:52 AM
Warn notices are required for companies of a certain size who MAY be laying off large numbers of employees. NYCOTB did the exact same thing when they threatened their shutdown. The NYRA is only following the law of notifying employees that if things don't change drastically between now and 6/9/10 they will be laying off large numbers of employees. It's part publicity and part legal responsibility. IF the Guv makes good on his $17M promise then this will just be a warning and the deadline will pass. Other companies have been forced into a similar situation while waiting for certain government funding for projects.

Robert Goren
05-22-2010, 12:07 PM
Warn notices are required for companies of a certain size who MAY be laying off large numbers of employees. NYCOTB did the exact same thing when they threatened their shutdown. The NYRA is only following the law of notifying employees that if things don't change drastically between now and 6/9/10 they will be laying off large numbers of employees. It's part publicity and part legal responsibility. IF the Guv makes good on his $17M promise then this will just be a warning and the deadline will pass. Other companies have been forced into a similar situation while waiting for certain government funding for projects. The problem with playing chicken is sometimes nobody backs down. Somebody needs to explain to me where the Guv is going to get $17M. I don't see the state backing down, not because they don't want to, but because they can't. JMO

Headbanger
05-22-2010, 12:48 PM
If I run a 7-11 and get robbed, does the state come in and give me the money the crook took? The answer is no. Even if it was a state employee who did the robbery and the loss would cause me to close, the answer is still no. NYRA is this mess because they have miss managed race tracks for years. They still are not even admitting what the problem is. And nether are people here who are crying about them closing up shop. JMO

You have no fvcking clue what's going on with NYRA, hell, you probably have no clue what's going on anywhere from what I have seen. The NYRA was guaranteed money by the state if the slots program had not been up and running by a certain date. When you sign a contract you have an obligation to uphold the contract that was signed or agreement that was in place. The agreement was the NYRA was supposed to receive a certain amount of money if the slots were not up by a certain date. The slots are not up so therefore NYRA is entitled to the money, no matter whether they ran their business to a gold standard or into the ground. So shut up and find a clue.

hazzardm
05-22-2010, 02:16 PM
You have no fvcking clue what's going on with NYRA, hell, you probably have no clue what's going on anywhere from what I have seen. The NYRA was guaranteed money by the state if the slots program had not been up and running by a certain date. When you sign a contract you have an obligation to uphold the contract that was signed or agreement that was in place. The agreement was the NYRA was supposed to receive a certain amount of money if the slots were not up by a certain date. The slots are not up so therefore NYRA is entitled to the money, no matter whether they ran their business to a gold standard or into the ground. So shut up and find a clue.

Aside from Moe Green's casinos in The Godfather, NYRA is one of the only gambling operations in the known universe to consistently lose money. So one can forgive state officials for questioning NYRA's crying poverty.

http://poststar.com/news/opinion/editorial/article_1f351b98-f504-11de-9a3e-001cc4c002e0.html

Robert Goren
05-22-2010, 02:33 PM
You have no fvcking clue what's going on with NYRA, hell, you probably have no clue what's going on anywhere from what I have seen. The NYRA was guaranteed money by the state if the slots program had not been up and running by a certain date. When you sign a contract you have an obligation to uphold the contract that was signed or agreement that was in place. The agreement was the NYRA was supposed to receive a certain amount of money if the slots were not up by a certain date. The slots are not up so therefore NYRA is entitled to the money, no matter whether they ran their business to a gold standard or into the ground. So shut up and find a clue. Show me a copy of that agreement.

Robert Goren
05-22-2010, 02:38 PM
You have no fvcking clue what's going on with NYRA, hell, you probably have no clue what's going on anywhere from what I have seen. The NYRA was guaranteed money by the state if the slots program had not been up and running by a certain date. When you sign a contract you have an obligation to uphold the contract that was signed or agreement that was in place. The agreement was the NYRA was supposed to receive a certain amount of money if the slots were not up by a certain date. The slots are not up so therefore NYRA is entitled to the money, no matter whether they ran their business to a gold standard or into the ground. So shut up and find a clue.10 posts and 8 of them bad monthing Zenyatta, get over yourself.

Headbanger
05-22-2010, 02:44 PM
10 posts and 8 of them bad monthing Zenyatta, get over yourself.

Not once did I bad mouth Zenyatta...she's a good horse which I alluded to but she clearly has to prove herself a bit more before people proclaim her at all-time great, as she's been proclaimed here.

Also, with regards to this, stop trying to act as if you know what's going on with NYRA when you have no clue. You don't know what was agreed upon and what was not. It was well documented that NYRA would be owed money if the slots weren't up and running by a certain date. And although I don't have proof with a document, we own horses in New York and it was a well known fact.

Tom
05-22-2010, 04:06 PM
If this is typical of a NYRA supporter, it explains a lot.

Dahoss9698
05-22-2010, 05:36 PM
If this is typical of a NYRA supporter, it explains a lot.

What exactly was untrue about what he said?

Tom
05-22-2010, 05:47 PM
It is his attitude and behavior.
You might not notice stuff like that though.

casterlink
05-22-2010, 05:53 PM
Every dollar the trainers, owners and jockey take is one less dollar the customers get to have. Trainers, owners and jockeys have 'organizations' who back them. Bettors have no voice at all. This is why the pie for the bettors keeps getting smaller. Guys like Frank Stronach wanting to 'sit down wit de horsmen' instead of sitting down with the bettors.


You're dead wrong about this. It's the state that is taking money out of the bettors hands.

Dahoss9698
05-22-2010, 07:23 PM
It is his attitude and behavior.
You might not notice stuff like that though.

Excuse me while I laugh out loud at you of all people judging someone by their attitude. Since you are such a glass half full kind of guy.

Headbanger
05-22-2010, 08:27 PM
If this is typical of a NYRA supporter, it explains a lot.

Well excuse me that I care that people's livliehood's are on the line here when there is absolutely no reason that Hayward should be begging for money, he's stuck making these threats because NYRA is owed money that it has a right to and because NYRA hasn't seen that money yet, people's jobs are on the line if they close.

The other reason being is that NYRA is one of the most horseplayer friendly broadcasts, and it would be a shame to see the handicapping show that gives bettors the most intriguing and best insights in the business in terms of how to bet a race, handicapping hints and tips, go by the wayside because someone welched on what they owe NYRA.

thaskalos
05-22-2010, 09:59 PM
You have no fvcking clue what's going on with NYRA, hell, you probably have no clue what's going on anywhere from what I have seen. The NYRA was guaranteed money by the state if the slots program had not been up and running by a certain date. When you sign a contract you have an obligation to uphold the contract that was signed or agreement that was in place. The agreement was the NYRA was supposed to receive a certain amount of money if the slots were not up by a certain date. The slots are not up so therefore NYRA is entitled to the money, no matter whether they ran their business to a gold standard or into the ground. So shut up and find a clue. This "guaranteed money" that the state was obligated to give to the NYRA in the event that the slots were not up by a certain time...it was supposed to be a loan, right? I mean ...it wasn't money that the NYRA was really intitled to...

And when people give you a substantial "loan"...shouldn't they be concerned about whether or not they will be able to get that money back in a timely fashion?

thaskalos
05-22-2010, 11:44 PM
Not once did I bad mouth Zenyatta...she's a good horse which I alluded to but she clearly has to prove herself a bit more before people proclaim her at all-time great, as she's been proclaimed here.

Also, with regards to this, stop trying to act as if you know what's going on with NYRA when you have no clue. You don't know what was agreed upon and what was not. It was well documented that NYRA would be owed money if the slots weren't up and running by a certain date. And although I don't have proof with a document, we own horses in New York and it was a well known fact. What did the NYRA do with the $30,000,000 hand-out that they got from the state in 2008?

Headbanger
05-23-2010, 12:08 AM
This "guaranteed money" that the state was obligated to give to the NYRA in the event that the slots were not up by a certain time...it was supposed to be a loan, right? I mean ...it wasn't money that the NYRA was really intitled to...

And when people give you a substantial "loan"...shouldn't they be concerned about whether or not they will be able to get that money back in a timely fashion?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/18/AR2010051802909.html

That's the best article that I could find, but either way, NYRA is entitled to the money that was supposed to be revenue from slot machines.

As for the other money you speak about I cannot answer whether that is true, false, somewhere in between or what have you because I am not an NYRA employee so I am not privy that information.

Tom
05-23-2010, 12:16 AM
Well excuse me that I care that people's livliehood's are on the line here when there is absolutely no reason that Hayward should be begging for money, he's stuck making these threats because NYRA is owed money that it has a right to and because NYRA hasn't seen that money yet, people's jobs are on the line if they close.

The other reason being is that NYRA is one of the most horseplayer friendly broadcasts, and it would be a shame to see the handicapping show that gives bettors the most intriguing and best insights in the business in terms of how to bet a race, handicapping hints and tips, go by the wayside because someone welched on what they owe NYRA.

:sleeping::sleeping::sleeping: that is a an excuse to be an internet jerk?

Dahoss9698
05-23-2010, 12:27 AM
:sleeping::sleeping::sleeping: that is a an excuse to be an internet jerk?

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/3143/hypocrisy.jpg (http://img541.imageshack.us/i/hypocrisy.jpg/)

PaceAdvantage
05-23-2010, 08:03 PM
We have enough "Headbangers" on this forum...we don't need anymore...

So I agree...lose the fvucking (I agree, it's kind of cute spelled that way, isn't it?) attitude, or lose your fvcking posting privileges.