NYRA Warn Notices

[oddsmaven]

Just checked NYRA site...there's a message to potentially cease operations June 9th.

[SansuiSC]

I just posted same in ADW section about funds in NYRA rewards account. More than just employees on notice here.

[Greyfox]

Just checked NYRA site...there's a message to potentially cease operations June 9th.

Yup. The link to the site is:

http://www.nyra.com/index_belmont.html

If true, it impacts Belmont, Saratoga, Aqueduct.

There has to be unbelievable incompetence or under the table stuff taking place there. If you can't run racing in New York,.....I mean that's God awful.

[andymays]

The politicians have no will to act. Unfortunately most of them could care less.

[tzipi]

What a shame.

[point given]

It's mandatory for them to send out the notice. The politicians will be back nexxt week and the gov will work it out with them to provide the loan. This is SOP in NY.

[cj]

The politicians have no will to act. Unfortunately most of them could care less.

Could not care less.

[Robert Goren]

The politicians have no will to act. Unfortunately most of them could care less. And why should they? Horse racing has pounding at the politicians' doors since the mid 80s with the next grand scheme to save itself. Nobody cares about this except a few horse people and the very few remaining betters. Anyone outside of horse racing has long ago thrown up their hand in disgust. It is sad, but it has been a long time coming. JMO

[tzipi]

I feel bad for the small time Monmouth jocks and trainers who will get swallowed up if the stop racing in NY.

[andymays]

Could not care less.


Racing is going to downsize and California and New York aren't looking too good. There is nothing on the horizon to save it either.

[andymays]

And why should they? Horse racing has pounding at the politicians' doors since the mid 80s with the next grand scheme to save itself. Nobody cares about this except a few horse people and the very few remaining betters. Anyone outside of horse racing has long ago thrown up their hand in disgust. It is sad, but it has been a long time coming. JMO


Right, they shouldn't be depending on anyone but themeselves but this tangled web was weaved decades ago.

[oddsmaven]

It's mandatory for them to send out the notice. The politicians will be back nexxt week and the gov will work it out with them to provide the loan. This is SOP in NY.
I was thinking it was some formality & not really very likely, though worrisome anyway...and maybe nothing to do with it but perhaps some adverse reaction to a recent ruling favoring NY OTB vs them.

Just watched Andy Serling & Eric Donovan go over the card on-line & not a peep.

[Greyfox]

Two days can be a long time and things can change when something is on life support. But two days ago, the Governor made the following statement.

"ALBANY, N.Y. — New York Gov. David Paterson says a proposed state bailout will pass and New York thoroughbred racing at Belmont and Saratoga race tracks will go on as scheduled.

Paterson was asked in a news conference if NYRA will run out of money before the Saratoga summer meet, as NYRA officials warned Monday.

"That's not going to happen," Paterson said. "We have a plan to loan NYRA, in the short term, money to get through Saratoga and we're working on a long-term plan to help beyond that."

Paterson said he expects the Legislature to approve a $17 million loan to keep the New York Racing Association afloat. Its cash flow is hurt by delays in getting video lottery terminals built and operating at Aqueduct race track. Part of the hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenue was to support the racing industry."


More at link:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jr-u77--isu_vFhdA-qUlk4HF3DgD9FPD7U80

[Greyfox]

I feel bad for the small time Monmouth jocks and trainers who will get swallowed up if the stop racing in NY.

Good point. Already several top trainers are starting to amass stalls at Monmouth. They have to in self-defense. The dithering between NYRA and the Pols for a loan has gone too long.

The Saratogan is reporting today:

"Several more New York trainers are either new to Monmouth or returning after a long absence this year. Steve Asmussen, Patrick Biancone, Gary Contessa, Nick Zito and Violette have a combined 80 stalls there, which represent a portion of each of their stables.

Other prominent trainers, Kieran McLaughlin and Todd Pletcher, are returning with the same number of stalls, 31 and 39, respectively. The track has 1,600 stalls and a waiting list for others hoping to get in."
More at link:

http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2010/05/21/news/doc4bf5e4c742978760644899.txt

[SansuiSC]

NY Post also reporting that Garrett Gomez and Johnny Velazquez are tacking at Monmouth. I live near Johnny V and it's 10 minutes top to Belmont from where we live.

Precautionary move maybe................

[andymays]

More signals pulled from New York OTB

http://www.drf.com/news/article/113152.html

[Canarsie]

More signals pulled from New York OTB

http://www.drf.com/news/article/113152.html


Wow!!! You will never come close to getting a seat At Favorite OTW in Fords just a hop, skip, and a jump from Staten Island. The place is mobbed already I can only imagine what it wil look like tomorrow.

[Tom]

This is good. Hope it kills them.

NYOTB should NEVER be allowed to carry anything but NY tracks.

[Vinman]

Canarsie....

I live five minutes from Favorites OTW in Fords and am a "regular" there. As I drove by there around 7pm tonight on my way to the nearby Menlo Park Mall, I did a doubletake when I saw how packed the Favorites parking lot was.

Wait until they open the next Favorites, currently under construction just north of the Jersey side of the Bayonne Bridge. I wish I owned a piece of it.

Vinman

[PaceAdvantage]

"ALBANY, N.Y. — New York Gov. David Paterson says a proposed state bailout will pass and New York thoroughbred racing at Belmont and Saratoga race tracks will go on as scheduled.Love that they use the incorrect "bailout" terminology...all the rage apparently...

If anything, the NYRA helps BAIL OUT NY State by sending them all that revenue in the form of pari-mutuel handle taxes and fees. Don't believe me? Check the aforementioned NYRA rewards account thread in the ADW section of this board.

Who's helping bail out whom here exactly?

[thaskalos]

Love that they use the incorrect "bailout" terminology...all the rage apparently...

If anything, the NYRA helps BAIL OUT NY State by sending them all that revenue in the form of pari-mutuel handle taxes and fees. Don't believe me? Check the aforementioned NYRA rewards account thread in the ADW section of this board.

Who's helping bail out who here exactly? That is "who's helping bail out WHOM here exactly?"

[PaceAdvantage]

That is "who's helping bail out WHOM here exactly?"That's what I wrote. ;)

[thaskalos]

That's what I wrote. ;) My mistake...

[PaceAdvantage]

My mistake...Thank you for the correction.

[thaskalos]

Thank you for the correction. Just kidding...slow night...

[shouldacoulda]

I once worked in a place that had this policy: anyone found dead in an upright position will be removed from the payroll. We need to go through Albany, all NYS OTB's and NYRA with a stethoscope! Bureaucracy is killing horse racing and the economy isn't helping. There is no promotion. Also, why is it that on the days of the derby and preakness most other tracks put on extended cards and their best class races. The 3 times a year horse players won't appreciate it and the hard core day in day out players might like to see cards like this when the races the following week or two are just garbage. Why do they compete with each other like that? I think it's foolish.

[thespaah]

The politicians have no will to act. Unfortunately most of them could care less.
It i sbecause of the politicians and their criminal behavior NYRA is in this position.
NY is one the most politically corrupt states in the country.
NY is a "well that's the way things have always been done" state.
Evrery politician in the NYC area wanted their plam greased over the Aqu LVT casino. Every union thug in the State wanted their plam greased and guaranteed jobs for their members which made the local politicos take a step back and look around ot see which of the unions they owed favors to.
Meanwhile the Casino at AQU is ages away. Or may never be built.
NYRA is one foot in the grave and the other on a wet bar of soap.
How many jockeys will move ther tak to other tracks? How many trainers will beging shipping out in the next few weeks?...
What a friggin shame.

[PaceAdvantage]

The good thing is, we all know NYRA isn't going anywhere. I've already detailed elsewhere exactly why...they are worth too much to the state...upwards of 50 MILLION dollars a year in pari-mutuel taxes and fees.

Would you pay $17M to make sure the $50M kept rolling into your coffer? Of course you would...

[thespaah]

The good thing is, we all know NYRA isn't going anywhere. I've already detailed elsewhere exactly why...they are worth too much to the state...upwards of 50 MILLION dollars a year in pari-mutuel taxes and fees.

Would you pay $17M to make sure the $50M kept rolling into your coffer? Of course you would...Understood. But think about this. When was the last time anything logical came out of Albany?
IMO, Belmont should ask to reduce to three day weeks same as Mth.
And expanding the Spa meet to 40 days is a ridiculous and desperate attempt to pump life into a bad business model.
Back in the Day, Saratoga did just fine with 5 day weeks. 6 day weeks have not shown larger attendance or handle figures.
IMO Saratoga should run from July 4th weekend thru Labor Day, but 4 days per week. Quite frankly Monday and Weds attendance stinks. Less than 15,000 bother to show up . So cut those days out of the schedule.

[ghostyapper]

but 4 days per week. Quite frankly Monday and Weds attendance stinks. Less than 15,000 bother to show up . So cut those days out of the schedule.

This is not a good idea. Most of the attendance is made up of people that travel there. What are they going to do in the off days when the reason for going up there is to go to the track?

[thespaah]

This is not a good idea. Most of the attendance is made up of people that travel there. What are they going to do in the off days when the reason for going up there is to go to the track?Go on Thrus, Fri, Sat and Sun. It's not like there isn't anything to do besides go to the track while in Saratoga.
Have a look at the most successful sports business model in the world..The NFL. Ya wanna know why the NFL is so popular? Aside from it's perfect for tv format, it is the limited availability of games to watch/attend. There are 16 games. The theory of "less is more" works for the NFL.
In two days of a short weekend only meet, Mth is kicking ass..
Less is more. Give the perception of limited availability and people will drool for a product. It's human nature.

[ghostyapper]

Go on Thrus, Fri, Sat and Sun. It's not like there isn't anything to do besides go to the track while in Saratoga.
Have a look at the most successful sports business model in the world..The NFL. Ya wanna know why the NFL is so popular? Aside from it's perfect for tv format, it is the limited availability of games to watch/attend. There are 16 games. The theory of "less is more" works for the NFL.
In two days of a short weekend only meet, Mth is kicking ass..
Less is more. Give the perception of limited availability and people will drool for a product. It's human nature.

I agree with what you are saying in general, especially for most tracks in the US. But I don't think del mar and especially saratoga should only run 3-4 days a week. Both these places are basically open only 5-6 weeks a year. That should be enough of "less is more"

[thespaah]

I agree with what you are saying in general, especially for most tracks in the US. But I don't think del mar and especially saratoga should only run 3-4 days a week. Both these places are basically open only 5-6 weeks a year. That should be enough of "less is more"
Ok. You own a restaurant that is very popular. Great food, nice atmosphere, reasonable prices. You eatery is located in a seasonal resort region. Over the last few seasons, you notice your midday sales are down significantly. Would it not be prudent to simply open only for hours when the sales would be at their highest?
The Spa's attendance is not very good on Monday's and Wednesday's. So why open the place for 13,000 people? It makes no sense especially in light of the impending drain off of horses to Mth's high purse structure.
Fewer race days allows for racing secy's to write fewer races, but write races that will fill. I don't want to show up at Saratoga this August and bet 6 or 7 horse fields.

[WinterTriangle]

I agree with what you are saying in general, especially for most tracks in the US. But I don't think del mar and especially saratoga should only run 3-4 days a week. Both these places are basically open only 5-6 weeks a year. That should be enough of "less is more"

I agree. Tracks that only have short meets should be open daily. But tracks that run year round should only have live racing 3-4 times a week.

Japan has approx 288 racing days at the big JRA tracks, (stats don't include the many non-JRA local ones:)
http://japanracing.jp/_statistics/2009/s01.html

[JustRalph]

Hello NY ?

Keep electing the same group over and over..............

How's that working for you ?

[andymays]

If NYRA shuts down, N.Y. horse trainers, owners could be uprooted

http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2010/05/24/news/doc4bf9ef4c1c931715531078.txt

Excerpt:

“It’s the craziest thing I ever heard of,” Mott said. “Racing generates a lot of money for the state and creates a lot of jobs. It seems like some politicians are just interested in what they can get today or this week, and racing’s been around in New York for over 100 years. It’s hard to imagine anybody would let it fizzle away.”

Excerpt:

“We have nowhere to go,” Mott said. “It’s too late to go to Monmouth (New Jersey). Woodbine (Toronto) is full. They probably have stalls in California, but we don’t want to make that trip.”

Mott said it makes no sense for the state to let racing stop.

“The state is still in for a good percentage of the action,” he said. “If they shut it down, they’re making nothing. All NYRA wants is what they’ve got coming to them. People are betting on the product. That’s not the problem. The revenue that it’s generating isn’t being put in the right spot. There should be more going to the track (NYRA) for capital improvements, maintenance and purses.”

[badcompany]

Go on Thrus, Fri, Sat and Sun. It's not like there isn't anything to do besides go to the track while in Saratoga.


The motels all jack up rates during racing season. The public isn't paying those inflated rates to do the things "besides" racing.

That said, I agree there was no reason other than milking the meet for every buck to lengthen the season. Last year, there were already way too many maiden claimer races.

[classhandicapper]

This is good. Hope it kills them.

NYOTB should NEVER be allowed to carry anything but NY tracks.

Tom, I can't agree with you.

IMO OTB should be viewed as an independent operation much like YOUBET, Twinspires, TVG etc... Some of those other companies take bets everywhere including NY and are competing with NYRA also (remeber NYRA take out of town tracks too). T

The difference is that the OTB business model involves branches (like brick and mortar banks) instead of just online betting. It's possible that the branch system is now totally obsolete and must die, but they said that about branch banking about 15 years ago too and they haven't gone anywhere. There is probably still a role for branches in addition to internet, phone, and on track betting.

IMO each of these entities should pay x% of each dollar bet to each track they take and they should all compete for the dollars via price, services, etc... The only debateable issue is the fair price. A free market of competition should resolve that and the losers should get bought out or purged.

The real problem is that government has screwed up the landscape so badly that none of these entities can operate like true businesses looking to maximize their profits and return on capital or customer experience. They are all handcuffed financially and strategically by government corruption, incompetence, and greed.

As screwed up as OTB is, 75% is government's fault and 25% is the incompetence that resulted from government providing jobs to it cronies there.

[Tom]

Tom, I can't agree with you.

IMO OTB should be viewed as an independent operation much like YOUBET, Twinspires, TVG etc... Some of those other companies take bets everywhere including NY and are competing with NYRA also (remeber NYRA take out of town tracks too). T


But it is NOT independent operation and it was not created to be one. NYRA is supposed to. OTB was created to HELP NY racing, not compete with it. It has two main functions - provide money to breeders and NYRA. It is failing to do both. Shut it down.

[thespaah]

The motels all jack up rates during racing season. The public isn't paying those inflated rates to do the things "besides" racing.

That said, I agree there was no reason other than milking the meet for every buck to lengthen the season. Last year, there were already way too many maiden claimer races.That's a bunch of hooey. 30 miles up the road in Lake George the rates are just as high and there isn't a track there. SO what is stopping the person who decides to stay near or in Saratoga from jumping in their car to go to Lake George, go fishing, golf or many of the hundreds of other things to get into in Upstate NY?...
I know the agenda some of you are projecting. You want the track to be open every day because you are mono-focused on playing the horses. Ok,if you are there just to bet horses, hike your self to OTB( yes ,Capital OTB is not the same as NYC OTB)or take a trip to Foxwoods or Mohigan Sun and enjor their respective racebooks.
Look, the present business model is failing. It simply does not work anymore.
Horseracing needs a shot in the arm. I believe Mth is on to something that just may work and work well. We shall see.
However, your pooh poohing my idea is closed minded.

[thespaah]

But it is NOT independent operation and it was not created to be one. NYRA is supposed to. OTB was created to HELP NY racing, not compete with it. It has two main functions - provide money to breeders and NYRA. It is failing to do both. Shut it down.One of the other purposes of NY OTB was to give bettors who could not get to the track a place to make wagers other than illegal books. Yep, that is right.
The original model of OTB's in NYC, Long Island and the Catskill OTB were simple shops where one who has done their handicapping already, could fill out a slip hand that and their money to the teller and receive their ticket and leave. There was no audio or video. In fact there were no tv's in any of the downstate parlors.
I believe the OTB concept was cooked up by a bunch of corrupt politicians( that could be a redundancy) to give their friends something to do.
I think the entire system should be shut down. Legisaltion should be created and passed to allow private entities to operate Off track wagering, pay fees to the tracks from which the parlors receive signals. A portion of the money goes to the State in taxes, to the NY Owners and Breeders, NYRA purses and local communities in which the shops are located.
It would be wise for NYRA itself to operate OTW shops. Sort of like Penn National( the owner of) does.
OTB is another classic case of government trying to operate a business and screwing it up.....Royally.

[classhandicapper]

But it is NOT independent operation and it was not created to be one. NYRA is supposed to. OTB was created to HELP NY racing, not compete with it. It has two main functions - provide money to breeders and NYRA. It is failing to do both. Shut it down.

Tom,

If you shut it down it would be a short term catastrophe for the industry and a disaster for the state.

There is no chance that all of OTB's customers are going to start going to the track, betting with NYRA via phone/internet accounts etc... Sure some will, but huge numbers of them are retired, not technically savvy, or others that consider OTB as a kind of club to hang out and play horses. Close OTB and they will either go to bars and play with their local bookie or vanish. On top of that, the government is so retarded it would have to eat 700 million dollars of retirement and health care benefits for retired OTB employees, and unemployment for all the people they let go etc...

I guess what I am saying is that NYRA and OTB SHOULD BE PRIVATIZED either together or independently because under the thumb of government, they are and will remain a total fiasco.

I for one could do without NY racing for 6-12 months just to get the leaches in Albany out of the game entirely and allow some competent folks to buy the assets, clean house, emerge privately, pay taxes to the state out of their profits, and fees to the tracks for the right to take bets. Then the tracks could work with whoever they see fit and distribute that money however they see fit to maximize their business.

[Deepsix]

I agree with PA. At the 11th hour the magical monies will appear to continue operations. Take a deep breath and let it happen.

[thespaah]

I agree. Tracks that only have short meets should be open daily. But tracks that run year round should only have live racing 3-4 times a week.

Japan has approx 288 racing days at the big JRA tracks, (stats don't include the many non-JRA local ones:)
http://japanracing.jp/_statistics/2009/s01.html
Saratoga is not a short meet. At 39 or 40 days, it is the same as the Belmont Fall meet.
Keeneland's meets are what I consider to be short.
BTW, in Japan gambling is a way of life. In Japan there is wagering on powerboat racing for crying out loud.
Every bar and restaurant has those Pachinko(sp) machines. Japnaese will gamble on which of two rickshaw drivers will make it to the next traffic light first.

[Cardus]

Go on Thrus, Fri, Sat and Sun. It's not like there isn't anything to do besides go to the track while in Saratoga.
Have a look at the most successful sports business model in the world..The NFL. Ya wanna know why the NFL is so popular? Aside from it's perfect for tv format, it is the limited availability of games to watch/attend. There are 16 games. The theory of "less is more" works for the NFL.
In two days of a short weekend only meet, Mth is kicking ass..
Less is more. Give the perception of limited availability and people will drool for a product. It's human nature.

That's a tough comparison with the NFL.

Though the NFL was expanded its schedule in the sense that it gives us more games on Thursday nights, Saturdays (day and night) and an additional Thanksgiving Night game towards the end of the season, its popularity continues to soar.

[thespaah]

I agree. Tracks that only have short meets should be open daily. But tracks that run year round should only have live racing 3-4 times a week.

Japan has approx 288 racing days at the big JRA tracks, (stats don't include the many non-JRA local ones:)
http://japanracing.jp/_statistics/2009/s01.html
ok did a little math ..
Yes Indeed the Japanese love the ponies. But not as much as they used to.
Their avg on site handle was about 672 million yen. At about 90 yen per dollar that works out to a little over $7 million bet on each race card. BTW the avg number of staters was 14.2 per race ..

Avg daily off site handle was 837 million yen per race day or about $9.2 million.
Now, in looking at trends in wagering and attendance, since peaking in the mid 90's attendance and handle at Japan's tracks is down significantly.
The numbers.....from their peak in 1996, attendance is down 48% and all sources handle is down 35%.
Ironically the number of horses going to the gate keeps rising.

[Cardus]

ok did a little math ..
Yes Indeed the Japanese love the ponies. But not as much as they used to.
Their avg on site handle was about 672 million yen. At about 90 yen per dollar that works out to a little over $7 million bet on each race card. BTW the avg number of staters was 14.2 per race ..

Avg daily off site handle was 837 million yen per race day or about $9.2 million.
Now, in looking at trends in wagering and attendance, since peaking in the mid 90's attendance and handle at Japan's tracks is down significantly.
The numbers.....from their peak in 1996, attendance is down 48% and all sources handle is down 35%.
Ironically the number of horses going to the gate keeps rising.

Good work.

Another example of why facts matter more than feeling or unsubstantiated opinion.

[andymays]

Lawmakers Ready to Approve NYRA Loan


http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/57171/lawmakers-ready-to-approve-nyra-loan

Excerpt:

State lawmakers were poised tonight to approve a $25 million loan for the New York Racing Association, keeping the racetrack operator solvent for at least the rest of the year and avoiding a threatened shutdown of its operations after the June 5 Belmont Stakes (gr. I).

[Tom]

Tom,

If you shut it down it would be a short term catastrophe for the industry and a disaster for the state. OTB IS a disaster for the state!

There is no chance that all of OTB's customers are going to start going to the track, betting with NYRA via phone/internet accounts etc... Sure some will, but huge numbers of them are retired, not technically savvy, or others that consider OTB as a kind of club to hang out and play horses. Close OTB and they will either go to bars and play with their local bookie or vanish. On top of that, the government is so retarded it would have to eat 700 million dollars of retirement and health care benefits for retired OTB employees, and unemployment for all the people they let go etc...

First, close all the parlors that lose money. IF there are any left, left NYRA run them. Obviously, anyone who has even driven past NYRA is more qualified to run then that OTB.:rolleyes:

OR.....run the parlors on the honor system. Let everyone punch out htier own tickets and dip into the cash drawers only if they win.

This method might lose a lot less money than OTB does now.:D

[badcompany]

That's a bunch of hooey. 30 miles up the road in Lake George the rates are just as high and there isn't a track there. SO what is stopping the person who decides to stay near or in Saratoga from jumping in their car to go to Lake George, go fishing, golf or many of the hundreds of other things to get into in Upstate NY?...



Because they don't want to go to Lake George. They're in Saratoga to go to the track. You don't really believe that the same number of people would show up at 'Toga early in the week, if there were no racing.



Look, the present business model is failing. It simply does not work anymore.
Horseracing needs a shot in the arm. I believe Mth is on to something that just may work and work well. We shall see.
However, your pooh poohing my idea is closed minded.

The present business model isn't failing at 'Toga. You're trying to fix the one thing that isn't broken.

[westny]

'Look, the present business model is failing. It simply does not work anymore.
Horseracing needs a shot in the arm. I believe Mth is on to something that just may work and work well. We shall see".

Well, the only thing Mnt is on to is using the 90 MILLION from Atlantic City casinos to fully subsidize thoroughbred racing.

If a state has no casinos willing to subsidize tb racing, then that Mnt model doesn't work. The ONLY reason Mnt is going to a shortened schedule is that Mnt could NOT compete 5 da a week with NYRA, now PI, Phil with slot money.

That "Mnt model" only works in a state with big casino cash. NYS DICTATES to NYRA the number of days and the days nyra runs. NYS depends on the daily cash from NYRA.

NYRA is the "big dog" that all have to beat. They don't have to follow anyone else.

[thespaah]

Because they don't want to go to Lake George. They're in Saratoga to go to the track. You don't really believe that the same number of people would show up at 'Toga early in the week, if there were no racing.



The present business model isn't failing at 'Toga. You're trying to fix the one thing that isn't broken.Stop arguing.
You think the track should be open every day. That isn't logical.
ANd to answer your question, yes I do. Years ago when there wasn't as much to do in the Saratoga area, that would have been the case. Fewer people would have visited the area.
If the track were closed now, not as many people would go to the area. But significantly fewer? No way.
Most of the people that go to the day's races are casual to novice fans.
In fact I believe most hardcore horse players avoid Saratoga.
When Saratoga had a 24 day boutique meeting, running 5 days per week made sense. Now with racing's popularity on the wane and the Spa meet a full 40 days, there is no reason to cram in 6 day weeks.
I guess my restaurant scenario went right over your head.
Lastly, the overall business model of horseracing is failing.
Save for Saratoga, Keeneland, and to a lesser extent Del Mar and Oaklawn, the sport is suffering from poor marketing and poorer management.

[badcompany]

Stop arguing.
You think the track should be open every day. That isn't logical.
ANd to answer your question, yes I do. Years ago when there wasn't as much to do in the Saratoga area, that would have been the case. Fewer people would have visited the area.
If the track were closed now, not as many people would go to the area. But significantly fewer? No way.


I will stop arguing because you're obviously off the deep end if you believe this.

[thespaah]

'Look, the present business model is failing. It simply does not work anymore.
Horseracing needs a shot in the arm. I believe Mth is on to something that just may work and work well. We shall see".

Well, the only thing Mnt is on to is using the 90 MILLION from Atlantic City casinos to fully subsidize thoroughbred racing.

If a state has no casinos willing to subsidize tb racing, then that Mnt model doesn't work. The ONLY reason Mnt is going to a shortened schedule is that Mnt could NOT compete 5 da a week with NYRA, now PI, Phil with slot money.

That "Mnt model" only works in a state with big casino cash. NYS DICTATES to NYRA the number of days and the days nyra runs. NYS depends on the daily cash from NYRA.

NYRA is the "big dog" that all have to beat. They don't have to follow anyone else.
DIctates..And that is the problem.
Sundays Belmont card in the first 4 races had fields of 5,4,6 and 5 betting interests, respectively.
Yep, NYS is spot on here.
Mth should not have to compete in the way you imply.
There are plenty of horses to go around.
Mth management with cooperation of the State of NJ is trying an experiment that so far is trending toward a good idea.
Let's see how it plays out.
BTW, The AC casinos compete directly with the NJ Tracks for the gambling dollar. The tracks were there first. The Casinos should be taxed to boolster the sport they are helping to send down the tubes.

[thespaah]

I will stop arguing because you're obviously off the deep end if you believe this.
Really? What do you know about it?
The area I mean. Other than going to the track, what other interests do you have in the region?
Anyway, that is not the discussion here. The bottom line is the meet would be healthier with a shorter race week. 4 days per week is enough. The numbers bear that out. As I previously stated, Saratoga's attendance and handle on Monday's and Wednesday's is far short of the other days the track is open. So why waste the time and effort to open the doors? The operating costs are fixed for each day the track is open. If the business drawn on down days makes it unprofitiable to open ,then you do not open. It's very simple.
If there's a part of that you do not understand then so be it.

[badcompany]

Really? What do you know about it?
The area I mean. Other than going to the track, what other interests do you have in the region?
Anyway, that is not the discussion here. The bottom line is the meet would be healthier with a shorter race week. 4 days per week is enough. The numbers bear that out. As I previously stated, Saratoga's attendance and handle on Monday's and Wednesday's is far short of the other days the track is open. So why waste the time and effort to open the doors? The operating costs are fixed for each day the track is open. If the business drawn on down days makes it unprofitiable to open ,then you do not open. It's very simple.
If there's a part of that you do not understand then so be it.

You sure are arrogant for someone who makes one invalid point after another.

Your NFL analogy fails miserably because the NFL is continually trying to make its season longer, not shorter. Eventually, the Super Bowl will be held on the President's Day weekend when it used to be held mid January. There's also talk of expanding the season to 18 games from 16 which was expanded from 14.

Your restaurant analogy, which you obnoxiously said went over my head, goes down the toilet, too, because the lunch business could still be very profitable even if it is down significantly. You could also try to look for ways to increase lunch time business as opposed to eliminating the shift.

Your argument that casinos should subsidize tracks because the tracks were there first is absurd. Using that logic, the PC industry should be subsidizing the typewriter industry. And, I guess you believe America should be given back to the Indians.

Now, on to your Monday and Wednesday argument. What is your evidence that it's not worthwhile for Saratoga to open on a day when they only draw 13,000 (15,000 is more likely)? Do you know for a fact that this is below a break even point? You keep saying numbers bear this out but you fail to produce these numbers.

Then again, you're a guy who thinks the Saratoga Library Used Book Sale will draw as many people as the track.

[classhandicapper]

First, close all the parlors that lose money. IF there are any left, left NYRA run them. Obviously, anyone who has even driven past NYRA is more qualified to run then that OTB.:rolleyes:

OR.....run the parlors on the honor system. Let everyone punch out htier own tickets and dip into the cash drawers only if they win.

This method might lose a lot less money than OTB does now.:D

Tom,

Almost everyone is very badly misinformed on OTB because of the politics of the situation and the total morons in the press.

1. OTB makes money for the state, city, and NYRA (though it is withholding some money from NYRA right now).

2. Virtually every branch in the system makes money and those rare ones that don't are closed as soon as the lease is up. The problem is that the branches are not making "enough money" to pay for the fixed costs of operating the business outside of the branches. There are several possible solutions to that problem, but the most obvious is to cut the costs unrelated to operating branches.

3. When "they" say OTB loses money what they are really saying is that OTB loses money AFTER it makes all the REQUIRED payments to the state, city, and NYRA that are based on revenue without any regard for OTB's costs. In other words, if revenue stays flat but rents, utilities, health care costs, technology costs, salaries etc... rise at the same rate as in the general economy OTB gets squeezed because it has no control over a major portion of its costs (what it has to give the state, city, and NYRA out of its revenue etc...) That's a preposterous formula. IMHO, NYRA should get the market rate for its product, the human excrement governing in NYC and Albany should be beaten senseless for endless corruption and incompetence, and OTB should be working to make their model more efficient.

[jognlope]

Spa will open on 7/23, getting $25 million from State, they are calling it a loan to NYRA, but actually they owe twice that amount to NYRA, so it's just paying NYRA back.

[Tom]

Totally disagree, class.
OTB is a leech and a political payback. Nothing more.
They were given 30-40 million in immediate cost cuts that made sense and would have only have hurt the slugs the run the place. They have enacted none of them. They make a lot of money because they have suspect accounting in the way the surcharges are handled. The do not contribute anywhere close to what the should. By withholding money legally due NYRA and the breeders, they are stealing the interst.

Many parlors hve been losers for years. They continue becasue they are cash cows to someone's nephew.

I see no logial reason to keep OTB alive - in the hands of the criminal empire that runs it now. Almost any group would show improvement over this bunch of thieves.

[classhandicapper]

Totally disagree, class.
OTB is a leech and a political payback. Nothing more.
They were given 30-40 million in immediate cost cuts that made sense and would have only have hurt the slugs the run the place. They have enacted none of them. They make a lot of money because they have suspect accounting in the way the surcharges are handled. The do not contribute anywhere close to what the should. By withholding money legally due NYRA and the breeders, they are stealing the interst.

Many parlors hve been losers for years. They continue becasue they are cash cows to someone's nephew.

I see no logial reason to keep OTB alive - in the hands of the criminal empire that runs it now. Almost any group would show improvement over this bunch of thieves.

Tom,

I don't want to argue with you, but I am in a much better position to know what's going on at OTB than you.

To begin with, they made major cuts at the headquarters a few weeks ago (layoffs involving millions of dollars), have significantly reduced staffing at branches during that time, and have been eliminating unprofitable branches for many years. The plan to make massive cuts to staffing (potentially upwards to 40%-50% of staff) is pending approval in Albany for the last few weeks.

The bogus accounting you refer to about the surcharge is exactly correct.

If the company is making the required surcharge payment to the city BASED ON REVENUE, then how is it losing money for the city as was reported and how does being inefficient matter?

That was a total lie.

There is a lot of waste, corruption etc... involved at OTB, but if you think it's any better at NYRA you are sadly mistaken.

The problem for both is GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT.

How do you think all those people you are complaining about got their jobs?

It is the corruption/incompetence of government and the greed of all those in the industry using that government to advance their own personal agendas that is preventing the industry from operating fairly and efficiently, not the existence of an independent off track betting company.

If NYRA wants to take that market share from OTB it is fully capable of advertising it's phone and internet wagering capabilities to compete for off track dollars. It will also have to compete with Youbet, TVG etc..

[slewis]

Tom,

I don't want to argue with you, but I am in a much better position to know what's going on at OTB than you.

To begin with, they made major cuts at the headquarters a few weeks ago (layoffs involving millions of dollars), have significantly reduced staffing at branches during that time, and have been eliminating unprofitable branches for many years. The plan to make massive cuts to staffing (potentially upwards to 40%-50% of staff) is pending approval in Albany for the last few weeks.

The bogus accounting you refer to about the surcharge is exactly correct.

If the company is making the required surcharge payment to the city BASED ON REVENUE, then how is it losing money for the city as was reported and how does being inefficient matter?

That was a total lie.

There is a lot of waste, corruption etc... involved at OTB, but if you think it's any better at NYRA you are sadly mistaken.

The problem for both is GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT.

How do you think all those people you are complaining about got their jobs?

It is the corruption/incompetence of government and the greed of all those in the industry using that government to advance their own personal agendas that is preventing the industry from operating fairly and efficiently, not the existence of an independent off track betting company.

If NYRA wants to take that market share from OTB it is fully capable of advertising it's phone and internet wagering capabilities to compete for off track dollars. It will also have to compete with Youbet, TVG etc..


Yup,

That's correct classman....get big Government OUT of the racing industry.

We see how well Magna and Churchill are doing!:lol: :lol: :lol:


BTW EVERYONE... Without Gov't intervention AT EVERY racetrack..this industry would be DEAD. (VLT's subsides, etc).

For those too STUPID to understand the role of "big corrupt govt" in our lives....swallow this:

Without the state bailing out NYC OTB....they go into bankruptcy and NYRA has to wait an eternity (just like THEY made their creditors wait).

Therefore NYRA would be done...

So for all those "anti-big Govt" zeros on this forum (like Boxcrap, Lefty, Arljim, etc etc) let this scenario be a lesson.

Gov't has a role in any Capitalist society....we dont exist "rule free" or "Govt free"...got it?

And as far as closing ALL the OTB's...... many OTB's are profitable...

As far as letting NYRA run them.....:lol: Think how difficicult they could make it if you wanted to bet out of town tracks where their take would be less... it would open more doors of corruption of an already corrupt bunch...(Unless you think that it's ok to use 10's of millons of dollars generated from bets to pay legal fees to defend your position when, at the same time they failed to pay property taxes and failed to make capital improvements on the place they claimed THEY owned).

Funny thing I read in one of the upstate papers that wealthy members of the NYRA borad were talking about using their OWN money to help keep the place afloat til the state sorted this out...:lol: :lol: :lol:
They would have an agenda worse than the Albany bandits.

I've stated this on another thread...NYRA just let go of a Sh*t load of people...
I'm there every day and haven't seen even a tiny negative change in the place...

What I do see is less employees taking 10 cigarette breaks each day in the patio area and more people doing their jobs.....

But lets see how they piss away this $$$$$.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yup,

That's correct classman....get big Government OUT of the racing industry.

We see how well Magna and Churchill are doing!:lol: :lol: :lol:


BTW EVERYONE... Without Gov't intervention AT EVERY racetrack..this industry would be DEAD. (VLT's subsides, etc).

For those too STUPID to understand the role of "big corrupt govt" in our lives....swallow this:And you fail to swallow a very important piece of the puzzle...Gov't intervention CREATED THIS WHOLE MESS in the first place...50+ years ago....as it ALWAYS has in almost EVERYTHING it has ever intervened into...

[PaceAdvantage]

BTW, NYRA got its money, in case anyone missed it.

I know folks like to start about 15 different threads all about the same subject when something NEGATIVE is about to come down on NYRA, but when they get their money (I read the headline very early this morning)...not a new thread in sight...

Not only that, they got MORE then they were asking for...$25M instead of $17M.

Don't worry, I'll start a new thread... :lol:

[the little guy]

There is a lot of waste, corruption etc... involved at OTB, but if you think it's any better at NYRA you are sadly mistaken.

..


Where exactly is the waste and corruption at NYRA that you so haphazardly refer to?

This kind of BS is really tiresome.

[badcompany]

Where exactly is the waste and corruption at NYRA that you so haphazardly refer to?

This kind of BS is really tiresome.

That dunce cap of yours isn't exactly money well spent.:lol:

[Robert Goren]

For the record horse racing is in trouble everywhere, not just NY and CA. The amount of Government involvement doesn't seem to matter much. JMO

[Tom]

Well, I would have preferred they took the money from OTB, I will change my opinion and say it is a good thing they gave them the money that IS OWED THEM AND IS THEIRS LEGALLY, NOT AS A BAILOUT.

The bottom line here is that the Albany pinheads going back to Pataki have cost this state millions of dollars through their greed and incompetence of the years.

That NYRA is the number one racing center in the country, in spite of being saddled with the NYS nitwits is a testimony to their fortitude. :ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

Where exactly is the waste and corruption at NYRA that you so haphazardly refer to?

This kind of BS is really tiresome.

I don't want to name names, but to start, a certain former high level employee of OTB that was more or less run out of town because of extreme incompetence now has a significant role at NYRA. If he hasn't been run out of town there, I can only imagine what else is going on.

I could tell you things about the corruption, but I don't want to come public because they were told to me in confidence. There are reasons that NYC OTB is so strongly against merging with NYRA other than the preservation of those cushy jobs etc.. at OTB

[classhandicapper]

And you fail to swallow a very important piece of the puzzle...Gov't intervention CREATED THIS WHOLE MESS in the first place...50+ years ago....as it ALWAYS has in almost EVERYTHING it has ever intervened into...

I could not agree any more. :ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

Well, I would have preferred they took the money from OTB, I will change my opinion and say it is a good thing they gave them the money that IS OWED THEM AND IS THEIRS LEGALLY, NOT AS A BAILOUT.

The bottom line here is that the Albany pinheads going back to Pataki have cost this state millions of dollars through their greed and incompetence of the years.

That NYRA is the number one racing center in the country, in spite of being saddled with the NYS nitwits is a testimony to their fortitude. :ThmbUp:

Tom,

OTB will pay NYRA and others the money it is owed as soon as the state approves its reorganization plan and it can begin implementing it. That will make OTB viable for the short/medium term and free up cash flow.

While OTB did not file the same kind of bankruptcy we see for businesses, it more or less works the same when it comes to creditors. . The court rules etc....

To be clear, I'm not defending the way OTB was managed. It's a disaster.

I just think we live in a world where there is room for on track betting, phone betting, computer betting, and brick and mortar places like NYC and the other OTBs. The tracks are going to be forced to compete with many entities that take bets off track including those NY OTBs and illegal off shore rebate shops and xchanges.

If NYRA wants to win it's going to have do a good job of competing with them.

If it thinks it can run the brick and mortar operations better than the OTBs, it should lobby Albany for a merger.

But the problem is in Albany and not at OTB.

[Tom]

If NYRA wants to win it's going to have do a good job of competing with them.

I think that is absurd. Why should NYRA have to compete with a state-run failure while being handcuffed by that same state? NYRA puts out the product. OTB leeches it. If NYS needs an OTB function, which it does not, then let a for-profit company that is competent run it....obviously, NYS is not close to being a for-profit anything! :rolleyes::lol:

[the little guy]

I don't want to name names, but to start, a certain former high level employee of OTB that was more or less run out of town because of extreme incompetence now has a significant role at NYRA. If he hasn't been run out of town there, I can only imagine what else is going on.

I could tell you things about the corruption, but I don't want to come public because they were told to me in confidence. There are reasons that NYC OTB is so strongly against merging with NYRA other than the preservation of those cushy jobs etc.. at OTB


I would love to make an analogy out of this disgraceful post.

[Dahoss9698]

Well, I would have preferred they took the money from OTB, I will change my opinion and say it is a good thing they gave them the money that IS OWED THEM AND IS THEIRS LEGALLY, NOT AS A BAILOUT.

The bottom line here is that the Albany pinheads going back to Pataki have cost this state millions of dollars through their greed and incompetence of the years.

That NYRA is the number one racing center in the country, in spite of being saddled with the NYS nitwits is a testimony to their fortitude. :ThmbUp:

What a difference a few days makes. :D

[slewis]

And you fail to swallow a very important piece of the puzzle...Gov't intervention CREATED THIS WHOLE MESS in the first place...50+ years ago....as it ALWAYS has in almost EVERYTHING it has ever intervened into...


Well if you care to be a little more precise on HOW the Govt created the mess 50 yrs ago, I can better understand why we need less Govt and not more.

[slewis]

Tom,

OTB will pay NYRA and others the money it is owed as soon as the state approves its reorganization plan and it can begin implementing it. That will make OTB viable for the short/medium term and free up cash flow.

While OTB did not file the same kind of bankruptcy we see for businesses, it more or less works the same when it comes to creditors. . The court rules etc....

To be clear, I'm not defending the way OTB was managed. It's a disaster.

I just think we live in a world where there is room for on track betting, phone betting, computer betting, and brick and mortar places like NYC and the other OTBs. The tracks are going to be forced to compete with many entities that take bets off track including those NY OTBs and illegal off shore rebate shops and xchanges.

If NYRA wants to win it's going to have do a good job of competing with them.

If it thinks it can run the brick and mortar operations better than the OTBs, it should lobby Albany for a merger.

But the problem is in Albany and not at OTB.

Merging NYRA and OTB is ridiculous. I love people on this board. Many are pro-capitalism, freedom of choice, etc.

When I walk into my OTB, the manager knows who I am and goes out of his way to make sure my gambling dollars get bet through his platform.


Merge the organizations and you take that incentive away. unquestionbly, we all agree that the "Hazel Dukes" syndrome MUST stop with these OTBS. (Actually, they need to stop throughout Govt.... but that's a stretch).

Plus, NYRA hasn't proven a thing to me regarding running their own operation since the franchise renewal so what makes those who are pro NYRA on this board think that they could run OTB too?

Their has been NO innovation and no view towards the future at NYRA.
They are very good at putting on their pom poms and cheering and lobbying for VLT's with the hope of $80,000 maiden races in the name corporate WELFARE.. Got that EVERYONE...WELFARE...

So tell me how the racing industry survives without Govt intervention in NY, directing money to those really not entitled to it.

It's amazing how on one thread the hypocrits yell "SOCIALISM" and on another they preach "entitlement".

And dont BS me about the land ownership... What would NYRA do with the land??? sell it to real estate developers? And who gets the proceeds??? Do they divi it up amoungst the board members or do theY lobby to get someone elected to play by their rules.

I really cant wait to hear your explanation(s) of how NYS govt screws up the private sector.:bang:

[Indulto]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper
I don't want to name names, but to start, a certain former high level employee of OTB that was more or less run out of town because of extreme incompetence now has a significant role at NYRA. If he hasn't been run out of town there, I can only imagine what else is going on.

I could tell you things about the corruption, but I don't want to come public because they were told to me in confidence. There are reasons that NYC OTB is so strongly against merging with NYRA other than the preservation of those cushy jobs etc.. at OTBI would love to make an analogy out of this disgraceful post.You might as well since you're not denying what he posted. Hard to believe ATTRAB's one-time hard hitter now drinks NYRA Kool Aid.

[the little guy]

Their has been NO innovation and no view towards the future at NYRA.





I have learned to expect a lot of BS from you...but even you must have blushed when you typed this crap.

[thespaah]

You sure are arrogant for someone who makes one invalid point after another.

Your NFL analogy fails miserably because the NFL is continually trying to make its season longer, not shorter. Eventually, the Super Bowl will be held on the President's Day weekend when it used to be held mid January. There's also talk of expanding the season to 18 games from 16 which was expanded from 14.

Your restaurant analogy, which you obnoxiously said went over my head, goes down the toilet, too, because the lunch business could still be very profitable even if it is down significantly. You could also try to look for ways to increase lunch time business as opposed to eliminating the shift.

Your argument that casinos should subsidize tracks because the tracks were there first is absurd. Using that logic, the PC industry should be subsidizing the typewriter industry. And, I guess you believe America should be given back to the Indians.

Now, on to your Monday and Wednesday argument. What is your evidence that it's not worthwhile for Saratoga to open on a day when they only draw 13,000 (15,000 is more likely)? Do you know for a fact that this is below a break even point? You keep saying numbers bear this out but you fail to produce these numbers.

Then again, you're a guy who thinks the Saratoga Library Used Book Sale will draw as many people as the track.

I have used perfectly reasonable and logical ideas. If that makes me arrogant ,so be it. I'm arrogant. Any other comments?
Once again you are arguing just for the sake of argument.
Restaurants. Yes, nice try at rationalization. Fail.

BTW, in NJ one of the stipulations of the casino referendum which if passed by the residents of NJ is the Casinos had to pay a certain percentage of their revenues to the city of Atlantic City for various revitalization projects. There are others as well. Based on the fact that the only gambling outlets in the state prior to the Casino referendum's passage was pari-mutuel wagering. The Casinos instantly took a serious bite out of the respective track's pari mutuel handle. So why not have the casinos contribute a small amount(compared to their total take) of money toward the racing industry.
You refer to my points as "invalid". Who is being arrogant? With that statement, you have concluded that your opinion is the only one that counts.
I have some choice words for you but in the interests of keeping this place civil, I won't go there.
Given the early success of Monmouth's new schedule, I want to know in your own words why my idea is invalid. Simply refering to it as invalid does not make it so. You can guess and surmise all you like.
SO now we get to what us big boys and girls call research.
I looked at last years charts for Saratoga..
8/3 attendance 16,183 8/5 17,472....Friday 8/7 23,276
That's a 70% larger crowd on Friday than monday and about 60% more than Wedsday of that week.
Now to illustrate the futility of keeping Saratoga open after Travers weekend. Monday 8/31 attendance was 10,066..Weds 9/2 the attnedance was unreported because admission was free. The ontrack handle was about $1.5 million. Saratoga's avg percapita on track wagering is roughlt $150 per person on weekdays. Son one could say the attendance was about 10 or 11,000..It is easy to understand why the travers which back in the days of the 24 day meet and the 30 day meet was always the middle Saturday of the meet and is now the last Saturday before the Labor Day weekend. The reason is crowds are down signinficantly after Travers weekend.
BTW The NFL still manitians the same successful business model. The 17th and 18th games are not being added. Those games are replacements for tow preseason games. It's still a far better business model than that of horse racing. Limit the suply and people will want it that much more.
Whatcha got now? Besides rhetorical nonsense

[thespaah]

Yup,

That's correct classman....get big Government OUT of the racing industry.

We see how well Magna and Churchill are doing!:lol: :lol: :lol:


BTW EVERYONE... Without Gov't intervention AT EVERY racetrack..this industry would be DEAD. (VLT's subsides, etc).

For those too STUPID to understand the role of "big corrupt govt" in our lives....swallow this:

Without the state bailing out NYC OTB....they go into bankruptcy and NYRA has to wait an eternity (just like THEY made their creditors wait).

Therefore NYRA would be done...

So for all those "anti-big Govt" zeros on this forum (like Boxcrap, Lefty, Arljim, etc etc) let this scenario be a lesson.

Gov't has a role in any Capitalist society....we dont exist "rule free" or "Govt free"...got it?

And as far as closing ALL the OTB's...... many OTB's are profitable...

As far as letting NYRA run them.....:lol: Think how difficicult they could make it if you wanted to bet out of town tracks where their take would be less... it would open more doors of corruption of an already corrupt bunch...(Unless you think that it's ok to use 10's of millons of dollars generated from bets to pay legal fees to defend your position when, at the same time they failed to pay property taxes and failed to make capital improvements on the place they claimed THEY owned).

Funny thing I read in one of the upstate papers that wealthy members of the NYRA borad were talking about using their OWN money to help keep the place afloat til the state sorted this out...:lol: :lol: :lol:
They would have an agenda worse than the Albany bandits.

I've stated this on another thread...NYRA just let go of a Sh*t load of people...
I'm there every day and haven't seen even a tiny negative change in the place...

What I do see is less employees taking 10 cigarette breaks each day in the patio area and more people doing their jobs.....

But lets see how they piss away this $$$$$.umm, just about everything government touches turns to sh!t

[slewis]

I have learned to expect a lot of BS from you...but even you must have blushed when you typed this crap.

Well the forum is open to list some of the innovations they've set forth.:rolleyes:


Look around on an average day..... 90% of those in attendance are 50 yrs...plus..

The dynamics of those betting from home are similar....

NYRA does NOTHING to get younger people interested in the game...

Just the other day I was sitting with a friend of yours, a good trainer and a gentleman, (I wont mention his name but just ask and I'll tell) He agreed completely... He pointed out how NYRA had concerts back in the late 70's to draw young people..and how the trainers used to complain how it (the music) bothered the horses... Now they WISH they could bring young people in..
Now the trainers are scared to death.....no one wants their product...and no one in NY has focused in the last 20 yrs on how to capture the young blood.
How can they? They're too busy scheming rules to make the public believe that toe grabs and mud calks cause serious injury to the Thoroughbred.

Now you can go ahead and tell me how NYRA's hands are tied by the state...and how they cant do this or that.... F..in BULLSH*T..

Hey Andy.... Things are so bad financially but I really like the new sod NYRA planted in front of the Marquee tent...looks beautiful.... great job....
Had to cost $5 or 6000 dollars...maybe more.. We are 1 month into the meet and...

GUESS WHAT! They haven't had ONE SINGLE FUNCTION in that tent yet.
What a waste of money.

But it'll look great for whoever rents it on Belmont Stakes day...you know, your real hard core fans...just like the tee shirt spinners at Saratoga.....
You'll cultivate new fans like that...

Give me a break.:bang:

[the little guy]

Just because you ( and some unnamed friend of mine ) don't realize what we have been doing, and leading the industry in doing it, doesn't mean it hasn't been happening.

Concerts? Thanks for the suggestion.

You're a regular riot.

[thespaah]

Just because you ( and some unnamed friend of mine ) don't realize what we have been doing, and leading the industry in doing it, doesn't mean it hasn't been happening.

Concerts? Thanks for the suggestion.

You're a regular riot.
I must ask...Can you without getting yourself into hot water with the upper echelons at NYRA, give specifics as to what NYRA and if you will, track mamagements in general have done or are doing to market the sport to new fans.Just what are they doing to increase attendance?
It is obvious that NYRA dumps huge ampounts of effort to boost the Spa meet. So that goes without saying.

[the little guy]

The on-line efforts at NYRA are second to none.

[Tom]

Now that's a fact. Jack! :ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[slewis]

Just because you ( and some unnamed friend of mine ) don't realize what we have been doing, and leading the industry in doing it, doesn't mean it hasn't been happening.

Concerts? Thanks for the suggestion.

You're a regular riot.

I guess my tone has started to make your knees quiver and it's affecting your reading comprehension...

I never suggested concerts......He never suggested concerts....It was the notice of an organization TRYING to make things happen.

Kulina at Monmouth is TRYING to make things happen.

Stronach, with all his downfalls, has TRIED to make some things happen.

This leadership at NYRA is a failure.....and will continue to fail because they are self absorbed in thinking they are in the RACING business.....

There isn't a member of the board with extensive gambling business experience.

The Chairman of the Board, in a difficult economic situation, has the audacity, to have 15,000 cartoon posters printed with a picture of him sitting atop a sketch of Saratoga Racetrack (like he's some sort of f'in fairy ass king)and hands them out as a giveaway.....:lol:
People were laughing when they got it....the kids paid to hand them out were telling me they couldn't give them away if they included $5.oo dollar bills...
Probably set the association back..(I mean taxpayers of the state) $3000 or $4000.
(Im trying to get my hands on one of those and you can bet if I do, I'll post the f'in thing on here and make you and him look pretty stupid)
Yup, that's great marketing..... I could go on and on and on you know..


Dont worry A...the slots will save the day....

[Tom]

Stronach, with all his downfalls, has TRIED to make some things happen.

There ya go, Andy.....put the grandstand on wheels and give rides to the youngsters between races. In fact, drive the geezers right up to the betting windows. Maybe drive them HOME! :lol:

[Cardus]

The well from which people draw to give NYRA crap is bottomless.

[the little guy]

There ya go, Andy.....put the grandstand on wheels and give rides to the youngsters between races. In fact, drive the geezers right up to the betting windows. Maybe drive them HOME! :lol:


Slewis is like one of the million monkeys with keyboards....only his aint putting out Shakespeare.

[thespaah]

The on-line efforts at NYRA are second to none.
Yes, the NYRA website is as good as they come.
I havew but one issue. I don't do facebook or twitter. I'll coomunicate via email or chat anyday of the week.
NYRA seems to emphasize face/ twitter a bit much.
Still, the question stands. What is NYRA doing to get new fans through the turnstiles?

[onefast99]

There ya go, Andy.....put the grandstand on wheels and give rides to the youngsters between races. In fact, drive the geezers right up to the betting windows. Maybe drive them HOME! :lol:
The Village at Gulfstream park was something Frank put together and on any given night the restaurants like the Cadillac Ranch are pretty full and this is during racings off season! I know you dislike the grandstand and many do but there have been a lot of improvements to this facility in the past three years.

[classhandicapper]

I would love to make an analogy out of this disgraceful post.

You work for NYRA so I understand your perspective.

We are not children here.

The fact of the matter is that NYRA has to deal with the same corrupt and incompetent people in Albany that OTB does, not all jobs at either NYRA or OTB were/are earned on merit, some unions are more corrupt than others, and some people at OTB don't want to deal/merge with NYRA for reasons that have nothing to do with lost jobs.

I really don't care much how this all works itself out as long as I can get my bets in.

I have my views on how it should be done in a free market world and how it should be done given the almost inevitable government involvement, but no one is going to listen to me anyway.

The only contrary opinion I have is that OTB has been made a villain in all this and don't agree. There is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there (even though I agree OTB is currently a basket case).

[the little guy]

You work for NYRA so I understand your perspective.




This is internet for " I made an indefensible cheap shot and I'm not man enough to admit it. "

[thespaah]

You sure are arrogant for someone who makes one invalid point after another.

Your NFL analogy fails miserably because the NFL is continually trying to make its season longer, not shorter. Eventually, the Super Bowl will be held on the President's Day weekend when it used to be held mid January. There's also talk of expanding the season to 18 games from 16 which was expanded from 14.

Your restaurant analogy, which you obnoxiously said went over my head, goes down the toilet, too, because the lunch business could still be very profitable even if it is down significantly. You could also try to look for ways to increase lunch time business as opposed to eliminating the shift.

Your argument that casinos should subsidize tracks because the tracks were there first is absurd. Using that logic, the PC industry should be subsidizing the typewriter industry. And, I guess you believe America should be given back to the Indians.

Now, on to your Monday and Wednesday argument. What is your evidence that it's not worthwhile for Saratoga to open on a day when they only draw 13,000 (15,000 is more likely)? Do you know for a fact that this is below a break even point? You keep saying numbers bear this out but you fail to produce these numbers.

Then again, you're a guy who thinks the Saratoga Library Used Book Sale will draw as many people as the track.
And your response is?

[classhandicapper]

Yup,

That's correct classman....get big Government OUT of the racing industry.

We see how well Magna and Churchill are doing!:lol: :lol: :lol:




Slewis,

The economics of racing are currently a horror show. Almost everyone loses money because the assets are being used so poorly. The problem is that there is way too much capacity given the current national betting handle.

In a free market, when that happens, there are bankruptcies, mergers, liquidations etc... and the revenue gets divided among fewer particpants. As a result the strong get stronger, their return on capital rises to appropriate levels, the weak go away, and an the industry returns to health.

That process can't occur the way racing is organized right now because of the government involvement/politics and the short term pain that would be involved in consolidating the industry.

If however all the tracks were currently privatized and government more or less stayed out it altogether other than collecting taxes on profits, a whole shit load of tracks would (AND SHOULD) go out of business ASAP because the land is way more valuable for other uses given the costs and handles at tracks.

If they did, IMO the national handle might initially shrink a little, but not that much. It would simply get divided among the remaining tracks with people betting via phone, internet, and brick an mortar establishments like OTBs that are already available.

Since the fixed costs at the remaining tracks would remain fairly stable, the rising handle handle would cause profits to rise significantly at the remaining tracks. That would give them the cash flow to raise purses and make more owners profitable, invest in ways to make their tracks more appealing, advertise, and probably still pay MORE taxes to various state governments. They might even have the freedom to lower the take. The whole process would put racing into a positive cycle instead of its current negative one.

Of course, like I said, consolidation usually means a lot of pain. It would mean fewer tracks, fewer jobs, fewer breeders, fewer horses etc... on the way to that much healthier and better industry.

And since we live in a delusional self centered society where people are unwilling to accept short term pain for long term gain, we are screwed. Also, since government is not going to give up control of gambling any time soon, it appears horse players are doomed to a steadily deteriorating product until all hell breaks loose. Then perhaps government will get out of the way and allow markets to clean this mess up.

[classhandicapper]

This is internet for " I made an indefensible cheap shot and I'm not man enough to admit it. "

If telling the truth in a conversation about fixing NY racing is a cheap shot then I'm guilty, but I don't see it that way.

When someone suggests that all the patronage jobs, inefficiencies, corruption etc.. that exist at OTB are causing many of the problems in NY and that handing OTB over to NYRA would fix that, I'm going to call BS.

I can't help it if employees at either institution are offended by that.

[Tom]

So Class, OTB owes millions to NYRA and will not pay. NYS ( ME!) has to write a check to allow them to continue operations.

Tell again how OTB is offering a valuable service?
They are.....read my lips.....FREAKING THIEVES!

NYRA is the largest racing product going, and people in all the other states manage to get thier bets down.

[slewis]

Slewis,

The economics of racing are currently a horror show. Almost everyone loses money because the assets are being used so poorly. The problem is that there is way too much capacity given the current national betting handle.

In a free market, when that happens, there are bankruptcies, mergers, liquidations etc... and the revenue gets divided among fewer particpants. As a result the strong get stronger, their return on capital rises to appropriate levels, the weak go away, and an the industry returns to health.

That process can't occur the way racing is organized right now because of the government involvement/politics and the short term pain that would be involved in consolidating the industry.

If however all the tracks were currently privatized and government more or less stayed out it altogether other than collecting taxes on profits, a whole shit load of tracks would (AND SHOULD) go out of business ASAP because the land is way more valuable for other uses given the costs and handles at tracks.

If they did, IMO the national handle might initially shrink a little, but not that much. It would simply get divided among the remaining tracks with people betting via phone, internet, and brick an mortar establishments like OTBs that are already available.

Since the fixed costs at the remaining tracks would remain fairly stable, the rising handle handle would cause profits to rise significantly at the remaining tracks. That would give them the cash flow to raise purses and make more owners profitable, invest in ways to make their tracks more appealing, advertise, and probably still pay MORE taxes to various state governments. They might even have the freedom to lower the take. The whole process would put racing into a positive cycle instead of its current negative one.

Of course, like I said, consolidation usually means a lot of pain. It would mean fewer tracks, fewer jobs, fewer breeders, fewer horses etc... on the way to that much healthier and better industry.

And since we live in a delusional self centered society where people are unwilling to accept short term pain for long term gain, we are screwed. Also, since government is not going to give up control of gambling any time soon, it appears horse players are doomed to a steadily deteriorating product until all hell breaks loose. Then perhaps government will get out of the way and allow markets to clean this mess up.


You know capper, I'm in a pretty nasty mood today and usually when I'm in a good mood I'm not all that nice....but I'm going to try an answer you in a civil manner.

First off, dont come off like an economics expert, because I doubt you are, and without knowing who you are or what you do, I'd take my experience in economics over yours and everyone else's on this forum on a bet faster then Seattle Slew got out of the gate.

So to set the record straight here I'd bet that 95% of racetracks (if not more) are privately owned. Several are run (from what I understand) by non-profit or not for profit outfits.
ALL (do you get this?) ALL tracks are under some form of Govt juristiction.

You will never change that...NOR SHOULD it change..EVER...do you understand? Tracks are not selling shirts and ties (as their main business)..... or sneakers.... They are in the GAMBLING business.....a business that is REGULATED by GOVT...Do you understand, sir? (See I'm being nice).
Gambling, as a vice in society, is controlled...

State Governments have stepped in and given a boost to their smaller (when compared to NYRA) tracks by putting VLT's on the premises and giving a cut of the "take" to the tracks.
This levels the playing field. Why?.. just look at the population of NY vs Phil. or NY vs NJ...of NY vs Charlestown, WV.

With this leveling of the playing field, it humbled organizations like NYRA, who for yrs have sat on their asses, treated customers like shit and had a "we could give a rats ass" attitude. But now....oh now things are very different.
The "easy pickings" are gone and now NYRA has to work to compete. Of course the first thing their great management pushes for, (of course) is slots.... the easy way to tilt the playing field back...again. Look how Monmouth tilted (artificially) the playing field and how they've rattled industry swords.

But guess what Class, without NYS stepping in, without legislators from other states passing laws to boost racing in their respective states, the "free market you so hungrily crave, would gobble you (the free market racing industry) up.

So before you preach "free market-keep Govt out nonsense", I'll repeat, racetracks are in the gambling business. It's a VICE business. States and local Govts will ALWAYS demand their cut and regulate it by law.
Try telling members of the West Virginia legislature that "for the good of the sport".. shut down your track because it's watering down the product nationwide. Think the NTRA could lobby nationally for stuff like that? I cant laugh loud enough (not at you, at the suggestions that some industry leaders have made).

Oh and BTW....the land at many of these smaller tracks isn't really all that valuable....heck, even back in the 70's the NY State attorneys could have easily clarified the ownership of the properties of NYRA and avoided the stupid controversy last year. I guarantee when a guy like McKeon (I'm showing my age) was running NYRA, he would have signed over any land claims to keep from paying property taxes at Belmont.... And in those days (from what I've been told) .. the taxes were paid...Why didn't the state attorneys request that? Well for one, they were stupid...and two, the property wasn't really worth that much then, so they didn't have a need (or vision) to claify it in prior franchise agreements. Dumb ass law school rejects.

But now, that plot off the Cross Island Parkway is a little more valuable then the cabbage patch field in West Virginia... I know, I've been to both.

[badcompany]

Stop arguing.





Once again you are arguing just for the sake of argument.



And your response is?

You tell me to stop arguing, and, when I do so, you badger me to continue arguing.

I made my points, obviously, you disagree.

This has been very traumatic for me. I've put my entire life on hold just to convince you that closing Saratoga on Monday's and Wednesday's isn't a good idea. And, now, that it's apparent I've failed, and I can't even convince you that the track is a bigger draw than the Congress Park Bake Sale, the pain is almost too much to bear.:(

But, keep in mind, there will be other topics down the road, and, one day I'm gonna come up with a point that even an internet legend like you will be forced to concede.

[classhandicapper]

You know capper, I'm in a pretty nasty mood today and usually when I'm in a good mood I'm not all that nice....but I'm going to try an answer you in a civil manner.

First off, dont come off like an economics expert, because I doubt you are, and without knowing who you are or what you do, I'd take my experience in economics over yours and everyone else's on this forum on a bet faster then Seattle Slew got out of the gate.

So to set the record straight here I'd bet that 95% of racetracks (if not more) are privately owned. Several are run (from what I understand) by non-profit or not for profit outfits.
ALL (do you get this?) ALL tracks are under some form of Govt juristiction.

You will never change that...NOR SHOULD it change..EVER...do you understand? Tracks are not selling shirts and ties (as their main business)..... or sneakers.... They are in the GAMBLING business.....a business that is REGULATED by GOVT...Do you understand, sir? (See I'm being nice).
Gambling, as a vice in society, is controlled...

State Governments have stepped in and given a boost to their smaller (when compared to NYRA) tracks by putting VLT's on the premises and giving a cut of the "take" to the tracks.
This levels the playing field. Why?.. just look at the population of NY vs Phil. or NY vs NJ...of NY vs Charlestown, WV.

With this leveling of the playing field, it humbled organizations like NYRA, who for yrs have sat on their asses, treated customers like shit and had a "we could give a rats ass" attitude. But now....oh now things are very different.
The "easy pickings" are gone and now NYRA has to work to compete. Of course the first thing their great management pushes for, (of course) is slots.... the easy way to tilt the playing field back...again. Look how Monmouth tilted (artificially) the playing field and how they've rattled industry swords.

But guess what Class, without NYS stepping in, without legislators from other states passing laws to boost racing in their respective states, the "free market you so hungrily crave, would gobble you (the free market racing industry) up.

So before you preach "free market-keep Govt out nonsense", I'll repeat, racetracks are in the gambling business. It's a VICE business. States and local Govts will ALWAYS demand their cut and regulate it by law.
Try telling members of the West Virginia legislature that "for the good of the sport".. shut down your track because it's watering down the product nationwide. Think the NTRA could lobby nationally for stuff like that? I cant laugh loud enough (not at you, at the suggestions that some industry leaders have made).

Oh and BTW....the land at many of these smaller tracks isn't really all that valuable....heck, even back in the 70's the NY State attorneys could have easily clarified the ownership of the properties of NYRA and avoided the stupid controversy last year. I guarantee when a guy like McKeon (I'm showing my age) was running NYRA, he would have signed over any land claims to keep from paying property taxes at Belmont.... And in those days (from what I've been told) .. the taxes were paid...Why didn't the state attorneys request that? Well for one, they were stupid...and two, the property wasn't really worth that much then, so they didn't have a need (or vision) to claify it in prior franchise agreements. Dumb ass law school rejects.

But now, that plot off the Cross Island Parkway is a little more valuable then the cabbage patch field in West Virginia... I know, I've been to both.

You can whine all you want about tracks being a gambling business regulated by the government but that doesn't change the PROBLEMs.

You may even be correct in your assertion that that will never change, but I will remain correct in my assertion that unless free markets weed out the excesses the industry is doomed.

For the record, I have a lot of economics and investment experience. I worked on Wall St. for 20 years, went into semi retirement in my mid 40s, and primarily manage my investments now. Horse racing is just a passion.

[classhandicapper]

So Class, OTB owes millions to NYRA and will not pay. NYS ( ME!) has to write a check to allow them to continue operations.

Tell again how OTB is offering a valuable service?
They are.....read my lips.....FREAKING THIEVES!

NYRA is the largest racing product going, and people in all the other states manage to get thier bets down.

I'll try to explain my view one more time. Then I'm going back to arguing about Zenyatta. :lol:

1. IMO there is a still a market for brick and mortar operations like OTB because not everyone goes to the track, is computer savvy etc... Many of OTBs customers want to stay local, hang out with their neighborhood buddies, watch the races with others, play the horses, eat, drink etc.... Many of these OTBs are like social clubs. The same people show up every day and they all know each other.

2. If OTB did not exist, some of the revenue it gathers for the industry from people like that would not automatically shift to NYRA or the tracks. Instead those customers would either not bet horses at all, play with local bookies, play lotteries instead, bet sports with bookies instead etc.. and hang out in bars or elsewhere.

Once you realize that OTB is actually bringing revenue into the sport that it otherwise would not get, the issue changes.

3. It's important to understand that for all these years OTB was self sustaining. The amount of money that went to the city, state, NYRA, and other tracks etc... was based on REVENUE. OTB made all the required payments. So the fact that it was ridiculously inefficient and not bringing as much down to its own BOTTOM LINE as it should was irrelevant to everyone other than the people that cared about making it as successful as possible (which was basically no one because it was not a "for profit" enterprise).

4. As the industry started to suffer in the recession, computer and phone betting took off and made brick and mortar less relevant, and the costs of brick and mortar businesses continued to rise, the OTB could no longer make all those payments from revenue that it was required to make.

That's where we are now, but we just got there in the LAST YEAR or so.

So the key question is whether or not there is still a viable long term role for brick and mortar betting?

I think so, but you and others seem to disagree.

If there is, OTB must be restructured in a way that makes it viable long term so it can continue to gather revenue for the industry and meet all its obligations to the city, state, NYRA, employees, and others.

If it is not viable, then it should be liquidated.

The problem with liquidation is #2 above.

If OTB is liquidated, IMO some of that revenue will shift to NYRA computer/phone accounts or to the track, some may go to Brisbet, YOUBET, overseas, etc... but some will simply vanish or go to the local bookie like decades ago. So if OTB goes down, a lot of people in the industry besides its employees are going to suffer.

Now you might ask why has OTB been run so inefficiently for so long.

The reason is that it has been a political patronage dumping ground for people in government. Now government is paying the price for its corruption and incompetence by having to make good on OTB's obligations to its employees, NYRA and others.

If you are pissed off at the situation that is understandable. I am pissed off too. But I'm not pissed off at OTB. I'm pissed off at the various people in government that gave all those incompetent imbeciles high paying jobs there and watched the company go down the toilet even though the problem was apparent a long time ago and even OTB was screaming for a reorganization.

As to the money that OTB owes NYRA, OTB has stated it will pay NYRA the money owed to it after the company is reorganized. OTB is currently in a kind of bankruptcy (not exactly) and waiting for legislative approval of its restructuring plan. It is not making those payments because it needs the money to sustain its operation until it is reorganized. Something like that is not that extraordinary for a reorganization etc...

The bottom line is that IMHO, if OTB goes away, NYRA is going to suffer at least in the short to medium term even though many people in NYRA and in the industry may not even realize that. So the goal should be to reorganize OTB and make it viable so it can meet all its obligations and continue to gather revenue the industry would otherwise not get.

It's possible that eventually all the OTBs will be merged into NYRA, but I honestly don't think that's a long term solution because government will still be exerting a lot of control and there will still be all sorts of corruption, incompetency, and political patronage jobs

[classhandicapper]

Useful reading on OTB

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2010/May/26/QA-with-New-York-City-OTB-chairman-Frucher.aspx

[Tom]

Nothing there indicated that the current people running OTB are needed. And the bottom line is, they are THIEVES. And Frucher is WORTHLESS.
Frucher IS the problem.

And now.....GO Zenyatta!;)

[tzipi]

If telling the truth in a conversation about fixing NY racing is a cheap shot then I'm guilty, but I don't see it that way.

When someone suggests that all the patronage jobs, inefficiencies, corruption etc.. that exist at OTB are causing many of the problems in NY and that handing OTB over to NYRA would fix that, I'm going to call BS.

I can't help it if employees at either institution are offended by that.

OTB owes NYRA millions of dollars and them not paying it CAUSES problems. Don't blame NYRA for this or say they OTB is not causing problems. They are.

[Tom]

Thursday, ATR end of the first hour an dinto the second, good discussion of OTB with Byk, Violette, and Connizo. Very good listen.

[badcompany]

Nothing there indicated that the current people running OTB are needed. And the bottom line is, they are THIEVES. And Frucher is WORTHLESS.
Frucher IS the problem.

And now.....GO Zenyatta!;)

I'm going to have to agree with my crotchety friend, here.

I was recently on the westside of Manhattan and stopped in the new OTB on w72nd st. at about 7pm with the intention of to playing a few races at Yonkers and Meadowlands. I attempted to purchase a program from the cashier and was told they were out of them.

This isn't the only time this has happened. I've also had this experience on the e70th st. OTB, sometimes early in the afternoon, several hours before the night card starts.

How the F do you run a horseracing operation and continually run out of programs? It's a tribute to the degeneracy of horseplayers that OTB even does its current handle, as they make it an ordeal just to get a bet in.

[Spendabuck85]

Nothing there indicated that the current people running OTB are needed. And the bottom line is, they are THIEVES. And Frucher is WORTHLESS.
Frucher IS the problem.

And now.....GO Zenyatta!;)

He just resigned as chairman of NYC OTB.

[Tom]

Frucher quit?

This is VERY GOOD.