Zenyatta not firing on all cylinders.....yet

[horses4courses]

Here's an excerpt from clocker Donald Harris recent observations in So Cal:

Have to also note that Zenyatta worked. She is still not back to her best in the a.m.. It has taken her some time to recover from shipping. Today Shirreffs asked her to get a little more serious. Aitcho (a good work horse), broke about 1.5 lengths in front. Zenyatta ended up dropping another length back on the turn. In the final furlong she was given some minor encouraging to get even. I had her in 1:13.00. It was not a breeze. Overall this drill was a step forward from her last drill. But by no means is she training with the same effortless power as she was before the Apple Blossom. It is important to understand that she does not need to be at her best right now. The Vanity is still a few weeks away.

(Piece taken from casetherace.com - dated 5-18-10, work was on 5-17)

[Skanoochies]

Don`t like the sound of that. :confused:

[Hanover1]

Until she gets beat or retires, she can work any way she wants to.....means nothing.

[cj]

Sounds like an excuse to say she doesn't ship well and to keep facing tomato cans on rubber.

[melman]

At least she defeats her tomato cans. While RA on the other hand loses twice to "tomato cans" on her preferred surface. Of course the RA camp had plenty of excuses at hand.

[Kimsus]

Sounds like an excuse to say she doesn't ship well and to keep facing tomato cans on rubber.

Again, if beating tomato cans is so easy, why doesn't Rachel ship out west to pad her record? You know Jess has had plenty of time to think about it after avoiding the Apple Blossom. This stuff just continues to amaze me.

[Kimsus]

Let me guess.

1. Rubber
2. She's not ready
3. Why should they ship out west
4. We are undecided on what race to run her in
5. All of the above

[letswastemoney]

Again, if beating tomato cans is so easy, why doesn't Rachel ship out west to pad her record? You know Jess has had plenty of time to think about it after avoiding the Apple Blossom. This stuff just continues to amaze me.
The Rockies are in her way.

[McSock]

If she is not ready, at or near 100% the connection just will not run her. Her fitness will not be their excuse if she gets beat.

[cj]

At least she defeats her tomato cans. While RA on the other hand loses twice to "tomato cans" on her preferred surface. Of course the RA camp had plenty of excuses at hand.

What did this thread have to do with Rachel? Can nobody discuss Zenyatta without resorting to mentioning a horse that is not at her best right now?

[Dahoss9698]

What did this thread have to do with Rachel? Can nobody discuss Zenyatta without resorting to mentioning a horse that is not at her best right now?

It had nothing to do with Rachel. Zenyattatards are unable to discuss one without the other. That HOY voting still stings apparently.

[only11]

It had nothing to do with Rachel. Zenyattatards are unable to discuss one without the other. That HOY voting still stings apparently.
and those 2 losses in 5 horse fields still sting too .....

[MNslappy]

tastes great!

[melman]

Sure will just discuss Z then. She has NEVER lost to any "tomato can". Weather she was at her best or not. She has NO need for excuses.

[Dahoss9698]

and those 2 losses in 5 horse fields still sting too .....

Like I said. Unable to discuss one without the other.

[csperberg]

less filling
omB-HVs6sRw

[WinterTriangle]

For those of you who prefer to read the workout from DRF and not the "interpretation" from Case the Race: http://drf.com/news/article/113022.html

Zenyatta, the undefeated two-time champion, worked six furlongs in 1:13.20 at Hollywood Park on Monday in preparation for the $250,000 Vanity Handicap over 1 1/8 miles on June 13.

Ridden by Mike Smith, her regular rider, Zenyatta started two lengths behind stablemate Aitcho and finished slightly in front. Zenyatta ran the last three furlongs of the workout in 35.80 seconds, according to Hollywood Park clocker Russell Hudak.

"I thought she worked very well," trainer John Shirreffs said. "Aitcho is a good work horse."

Aitcho finished sixth in the Grade 2 Arcadia Handicap on April 3.

Zenyatta will be after an unprecedented third consecutive win in the Vanity. Owned by Jerry and Ann Moss, Zenyatta has won 16 races and $5,924,580.

Zenyatta has run twice this year, winning the Santa Margarita Handicap at Santa Anita in March and the Apple Blossom Invitational at Oaklawn Park in April.

She is based at Hollywood Park on a year-round basis.

Reads like a typical workout after shipping to me.


Again, if beating tomato cans is so easy

I wonder WHY more trainers/owners don't figure out the way to go 16 for 16? Or even 12 for 12? It seems like, based on what some say here, it should happen pretty often? :confused:

I mean, any well-managed campaign would seem to include placing your horse where it can WIN? Since winning is the point of this game, for both bettor and owner/trainer, can somebody explain why so few horses win every race? All bias aside, what's the answer here?

After hundreds of years of racing, I'm surprised more owner/trainers can't seem to accomplish such a SIMPLE FEAT?

Unless I'm going to hear that trainers are all looking for what's good for racing, pleasing fans, putting their horses into the BEST races, giving fans what they want. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Pick6]

How about this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Frankel) trainer?

[Nikki1997]

A few of us have seen the workout .

Working with Aitcho a more accomplished horse than her normal male work partner, she cleared him going under the finish line by about 3/4ths of a length and seemed to do what the DRF described including the last 3/8ths in 35 and change.

It was an interesting workout for a lot of reasons, most notably the fact that it was unclear where the work started or where it ended .

The 7 furlong split was 1:25 and change .

Nothing seems not up to snuff to me .

Rachel Alexandra had a maintenance work in the slop the same day, going 5 furlongs in 1:04 and change under Bridgmohan and galloping out in 1:17 and change for the 6 furlongs as per DRF. This followed a half in 52 seconds the week before .

It is suggested that both girls will be running next around the second week in June.

[bks]

For the record, it was CJ's inflammatory post that set the tone for the stuff that followed.

It doesn't sound like an excuse at all. That was a CLOCKER's comments. Her trainer isn't making excuses for the workout. He liked it.

[PaceAdvantage]

For the record, it was CJ's inflammatory post that set the tone for the stuff that followed.Inflammatory post? This is a horse racing board. Not Ken & Barbie central. You can refer to the competition as "tomato cans" without expecting some sort of silly PC backlash.

[DeanT]

Sounds like an excuse to say she doesn't ship well and to keep facing tomato cans on rubber.
Brutal dude. An independent clocker with nothing to do with the barn, who is somehow in on a strange conspiracy, is well beneath you, imo. We dont even read such drivel in off topic.

[thaskalos]

Sounds like an excuse to say she doesn't ship well and to keep facing tomato cans on rubber. It had never occurred to me that undefeated horses needed excuses...I always thought that excuses were for losers...

[thaskalos]

What did this thread have to do with Rachel? Can nobody discuss Zenyatta without resorting to mentioning a horse that is not at her best right now? There is another thread on this board titled "Where's the old Rachel A.", which had nothing to do with Zenyatta...but that didn't stop you and your buddy PA from turning it into an anti-Zenyatta campaign...

[BluegrassProf]

There is another thread on this board titled "Where's the old Rachel A.", which had nothing to do with Zenyatta...but that didn't stop you and your buddy PA from turning it into an anti-Zenyatta campaign...
I went back to check, and sure enough, the very first direct reference to Zenyatta in the thread:3-1 odds?? I make the odds at least 100-1 that they never meet and 5-1 that Rachel never races again.

Rachel is not even in the same class as The Big Z.

Horse of the year in 2009 was total robbery.
PA's first Zen reference was as a direct response to the above: a classic inability to focus. When David-LV responded to PA's one-line post (and even after member Sundown questioned that very lack of focus), it was with: At this moment there is not a Grade 1 Male or Female in training or racing that can come close to The Big Z.

This is a once in a lifetime horse.

This horse is a win machine that runs her winning race each and every time no matter who she runs against or how fast or slow the pace on dirt or synthetic.The spiral continued through the thread, because of what I can only assume are horrible compulsions from multiple parties.

Anti-Zenyatta campaign my foot.

My god. Move on.

[PaceAdvantage]

Some of these guys don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant/post. They tend to focus on the perceived "black hat gang" (this time that would be me and cj).

Thanks for the fact check nonetheless. I'm sure the fact that it goes against his version of reality means it will also be ignored.

[thaskalos]

I never said that CJ or PA were the first to mention Zenyatta's name in the thread about Rachel. My point was that, instead of CJ jumping in and asking what Zenyatta had to do with the Rachel thread at the time of the Zenyatta comment, the conversation was allowed to shift to her and her "low" Beyers.

In this thread about Zenyatta, Rachel's name is mentioned, and CJ is quick to ask what Rachel has to do with it.

[Gorgeous George]

As some of you have already stated above it was an independant clockers observations and not the trainers impression, which says she worked very well. Excuses are used in defeat and defeat is something alien to Zenyatta. Lets just ignore the 'Dead Hand Gang' :D

[thaskalos]

Some of these guys don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant/post. They tend to focus on the perceived "black hat gang" (this time that would be me and cj).

Thanks for the fact check nonetheless. I'm sure the fact that it goes against his version of reality means it will also be ignored. I never ignore a post...nor do I fail to admit when i am wrong. That's YOUR bag...

[PaceAdvantage]

That's YOUR bag...How so?

[thaskalos]

How so? C'mon...how many 4:00 AM arguments have you and I gotten into about Zenyatta? You attack my posts when it suits you, and ignore them when it doesn't.

Case in point:

In the thread "What bad weather for Zenyatta to come into" I posted a lengthy retort to a post by BluegrassProf about Zenyatta (post #32), in which I made the comment that "Zenyatta shied away from no one". You derided me for that comment throughout the thread, while totally ignoring the rest of my post. When I responded to your mocking remarks with posts #46 and #47 (at 6:00 AM, to show you how pissed-off I was), you ignored them completely.

Not that I am the sensitive type or anything...

[Kimsus]

Nice to see the Administrator and Moderator of the message board here are so impartial, followed by the usual lapdogs or what I call the tired boys club for support. Don't let the pack mentality here fool or intimidate you my fellow realists, you've done well.

[Kimsus]

By the way thank god or whatever you may believe in free speech is alive and well.

[sandpit]

less filling
omB-HVs6sRw


Classic video, so many top-end guys in one ad is amazing...

[cj]

I'm just skeptical that the clocker isn't in the bag for the Zenyatta camp just like Jay Hovdey-Krone. His articles read like press releases from Shirreffs himself. I admit it was probably a stretch.

[gm10]

Sounds like an excuse to say she doesn't ship well and to keep facing tomato cans on rubber.

She doesn't ship well, that is well documented. No excuse needed, it's simply fact.

[cj]

Really? What documents? She shipped to Churchill last year and came back just fine, racing only three weeks later.

[Fager Fan]

Nice to see the Administrator and Moderator of the message board here are so impartial, followed by the usual lapdogs or what I call the tired boys club for support. Don't let the pack mentality here fool or intimidate you my fellow realists, you've done well.

By the way thank god or whatever you may believe in free speech is alive and well.

Free speech rights regards the individual and press to be able to speak out against the government. "Government may make no law..." Neither you or I have "free speech" at a private forum - the owner can delete our posts or tell us to get lost any time he wants. I hate to read so often the confusion about our free speech rights.

Second, the Admin/Mod had opinions just like everyone else and I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to state them.

[Gorgeous George]

Free speech rights regards the individual and press to be able to speak out against the government. "Government may make no law..." Neither you or I have "free speech" at a private forum - the owner can delete our posts or tell us to get lost any time he wants. I hate to read so often the confusion about our free speech rights.

Second, the Admin/Mod had opinions just like everyone else and I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to state them.

Put your tongue away for a minute. International, national and regional standards recognise that freedom of speech, as one form of freedom of expression, applies to any medium, including the Internet.

[gm10]

Really? What documents? She shipped to Churchill and last year and came back just fine, racing only three weeks later.

Against that bunch of tomato cans, you mean?

[FenceBored]

Against that bunch of tomato cans, you mean?

I think he's got it. By George, he's got it.

[cj]

Against that bunch of tomato cans, you mean?

I don't remember which horses were in the field, though they were probably forgettable. Obviously she shipped well enough to run back quickly though. Why change the subject?

[andymays]

I think the title of the thread kind of makes the point.


How many cylinders does Zenyatta have?

That's all we want to know. Run lights out against the best on dirt and put the story to rest.

[Headbanger]

cj, that brilliant list of tomato cans would have included Allicansayis Wow, Gambler's Justice, Champagne Eyes, and Taste's Sis, not exactly a who's who of Graded Stakes caliber opposition. Of course Life is Sweet was second in there, but it's not as if anything else was going to threaten her. Life is Sweet also never won a dirt race in her life, in fact if I recall correctly she never even ran on the dirt, meanwhile RA was leaving Graded Stakes winners like Mine That Bird, Musket Man, Flashing, Summer Bird, Munnings, Macho Again, Bullsbay and others in her wake last year. But, hey, let's not let facts get in the way of fantasy.

[gm10]

I don't remember which horses were in the field, though they were probably forgettable. Obviously she shipped well enough to run back quickly though. Why change the subject?

I don't understand your constant negativity versus Zenyatta. What has the horse ever done to you? Will this get worse with every race that RA loses? Sorry to bring up RA, but there does seem to be a correlation there.

[Nikki1997]

cj, that brilliant list of tomato cans would have included Allicansayis Wow, Gambler's Justice, Champagne Eyes, and Taste's Sis, not exactly a who's who of Graded Stakes caliber opposition. Of course Life is Sweet was second in there, but it's not as if anything else was going to threaten her. Life is Sweet also never won a dirt race in her life, in fact if I recall correctly she never even ran on the dirt, meanwhile RA was leaving Graded Stakes winners like Mine That Bird, Musket Man, Flashing, Summer Bird, Munnings, Macho Again, Bullsbay and others in her wake last year. But, hey, let's not let facts get in the way of fantasy.

The operative words are last year .

Last year is a closed book .

Both horses ran against various degrees of crap if you really want to be honest.

Both horses have run twice this year .

One won twice , one did not . Neither fields were were stellar.

This is fact .

Please let me be redundant like everyone else here and say that this is 2010 .

[Greyfox]

Second, the Admin/Mod had opinions just like everyone else and I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to state them.

Absolutely true. Of course they have opinions that should be expressed.
But do they ever differ and disagree with one another in any posts on this board?? If so, when? Sometimes the responses are almost reminiscent of Alfonse and Gaston deferring to one another.

In my mind Rachel A and Zenyatta are both great animals.
To refer to either beating tomato cans or being beaten by tomato cans is hyperbole, and as such inflammatory.

[Headbanger]

The operative words are last year .

Last year is a closed book .

Both horses ran against various degrees of crap if you really want to be honest.

Both horses have run twice this year .

One won twice , one did not . Neither fields were were stellar.

This is fact .

Please let me be redundant like everyone else here and say that this is 2010 .

Alrighty then, if you really want to get into 2010, Rachel has run 2 races in 2010 faster than what Zenyatta has run in 2010...but fortunately for Zenyatta she faced some real tomato cans this year, while obviously Rachel has faced better horses in addition to the fact that Rachel was rushed back to the races and probably not at peak fitness in either start.

[Greyfox]

the fact that Rachel was rushed back to the races and probably not at peak fitness in either start.

Rachel rushed back?? How many months was she away? How many months do you think she should have been away to not be rushed??

[cj]

I don't understand your constant negativity versus Zenyatta. What has the horse ever done to you? Will this get worse with every race that RA loses? Sorry to bring up RA, but there does seem to be a correlation there.

I have nothing against her, I'm just disappointed she isn't being tested. I summed it all up in the "Where is the old Rachel A" thread. I certainly don't dislike the horse, or any horse.

[cj]

cj, that brilliant list of tomato cans would have included Allicansayis Wow, Gambler's Justice, Champagne Eyes, and Taste's Sis, not exactly a who's who of Graded Stakes caliber opposition. Of course Life is Sweet was second in there, but it's not as if anything else was going to threaten her. Life is Sweet also never won a dirt race in her life, in fact if I recall correctly she never even ran on the dirt, meanwhile RA was leaving Graded Stakes winners like Mine That Bird, Musket Man, Flashing, Summer Bird, Munnings, Macho Again, Bullsbay and others in her wake last year. But, hey, let's not let facts get in the way of fantasy.

I'm curious why Life is Sweet is suddenly held in such high esteem. She won the Distaff with the dream trip of all time...big deal. Her accomplishments before and after are decidedly mediocre.

[OntheRail]

Rachel rushed back?? How many months was she away? How many months do you think she should have been away to not be rushed??
The length of the lay off has no relation to being rushed back. It's the amount of time in training for the come back the was truncated and therefor rushed. ;)

[cj]

Rachel rushed back?? How many months was she away? How many months do you think she should have been away to not be rushed??

Irrelevant how many months she was away. She was never pointed to a March return until the bribe came from Oaklawn...therefore she was rushed to try to make it.

By the way, PA and I disagree sometimes. Just recently I defended Zenyatta when the topic was about her figures on synthetics. We've both been around the game a long time and share a lot of similar ideas, so it is only normal to agree a lot of the time.

[Greyfox]

By the way, PA and I disagree sometimes. ..

Whew. That's good to hear. Thank you.

[ghostyapper]

She won the Distaff with the dream trip of all time...big deal. .

This statement right here pretty much confirms that one cannot have a serious conversation with you regarding this issue. Life is Sweet absolutely dominates the BC distaff but it's "big deal"

Instead lets just focus on how Macho Again was so good and how Zardana at one point was undefeated on dirt.

[WinterTriangle]

I'm curious why Life is Sweet is suddenly held in such high esteem. Her accomplishments before and after are decidedly mediocre.

Wouldn't most people on this forum love to own such a mediocre horse.;)

You'd have to get pretty lucky, IMHO.

[andymays]

This statement right here pretty much confirms that one cannot have a serious conversation with you regarding this issue. Life is Sweet absolutely dominates the BC distaff but it's "big deal"

Instead lets just focus on how Macho Again was so good and how Zardana at one point was undefeated on dirt.


Did you check out the pace in the distaff?

[ghostyapper]

Alrighty then, if you really want to get into 2010, Rachel has run 2 races in 2010 faster than what Zenyatta has run in 2010...but fortunately for Zenyatta she faced some real tomato cans this year, while obviously Rachel has faced better horses in addition to the fact that Rachel was rushed back to the races and probably not at peak fitness in either start.

First off Zenyatta earned a higher almighty beyer in her first race than rachel (and it was on synthetic which gets lower numbers) so please explain how she's run 2 faster races.

And also please let me know why she was not fit for the 2nd race? She had been firing bullets leading up to it that left her groupies ultra confident. She loses a stretch duel and now it's because she wasn't fit? Get real

[ghostyapper]

Did you check out the pace in the distaff?

Did you check out the pace in RA's most recent start? She still lost

[andymays]

Did you check out the pace in RA's most recent start? She still lost


How did we get to RA from Life is Sweet?

[cj]

This statement right here pretty much confirms that one cannot have a serious conversation with you regarding this issue. Life is Sweet absolutely dominates the BC distaff but it's "big deal"

Instead lets just focus on how Macho Again was so good and how Zardana at one point was undefeated on dirt.

First off, the field was brutal. It is probably the weakest Distaff in history, and by a lot. If you assumed horses could run on rubber as well as dirt it wasn't so bad, but it turned out they couldn't. Second, the race pace was brutal, and a dead closer couldn't help but have a big advantage. Third, the two best females (at least) weren't in the race.

Sure, she is a nice horse to own, but in the history of Distaff winners mediocre is probably being nice.

[Tom]

How many cylinders does Zenyatta have?


How many does she need? ;)

[cj]

Did you check out the pace in RA's most recent start? She still lost

The pace was just average, not slow or fast. She is definitely not back to last year's form. I don't think anyone is pretending she is yet.

[ghostyapper]

Third, the two best females (at least) weren't in the race.

I love it. RA skips the bc because of the surface but we should downgrade the distaff field because she wasn't there?

Yes life is sweet is mediocre but Zardana/Macho Again are superstars.

[ghostyapper]

Her accomplishments before and after are decidedly mediocre.

Yes mediocre. She started the year winning 3 graded races including a grade 1. Then in her next 4 races she lost 3x to zenyatta and finished 3rd in the G1 Hollywood Gold Cup against males. She then dominates the BC distaff

Amazing you aren't impressed by that but were blown away with Zardana's dirt wins in south america that you didnt even see. :lol:

[WinterTriangle]

How did we get to ...........Life is Sweet?


Life is Sweet is owned by the Mosses, and trained by Sheriffs.

I guess the mediocrity of Giacomo will be next part of the conversation, since they've already covered the mediocrity of Zenyatta and Life Is Sweet. :D

[andymays]

Life is Sweet is owned by the Mosses, and trained by Sheriffs.

I guess the mediocrity of Giacomo will be next part of the conversation, since they've already covered the mediocrity of Zenyatta and Life Is Sweet. :D


Zenyatta certainly isn't mediocre and I don't think anyone is saying that. I think she's the real deal. I just want to see her max out on a dirt surface against the best competition possible. Until she does that there are always gonna be questions. Damn Pro Ride. ;)

[cj]

Life is Sweet is owned by the Mosses, and trained by Sheriffs.



Not true.

[FenceBored]

Life is Sweet is owned by the Mosses, and trained by Sheriffs.

Life is Sweet is not owned by the Mosses. She is owned by the Wygods.


I guess the mediocrity of Giacomo will be next part of the conversation, since they've already covered the mediocrity of Zenyatta and Life Is Sweet. :D

Not that I actually want to further drift, but Tiago's got to figure in there somewhere, as well.

[andymays]

Not true.


Pam and Marty Wygod right?

[cj]

Yes mediocre. She started the year winning 3 graded races including a grade 1. Then in her next 4 races she lost 3x to zenyatta and finished 3rd in the G1 Hollywood Gold Cup against males. She then dominates the BC distaff

Amazing you aren't impressed by that but were blown away with Zardana's dirt wins in south america that you didnt even see. :lol:

I have seen her wins in South America, but feel free to make stuff up if you like as long as you promise to use emoticons after you do so.

As for her losses to "Zenyatta", it should be noted she also finished behind Lethal Heat times two, Anabaa's Creation, and Cocoa Beach.

[born2ride]

Yes mediocre. She started the year winning 3 graded races including a grade 1. Then in her next 4 races she lost 3x to zenyatta and finished 3rd in the G1 Hollywood Gold Cup against males. She then dominates the BC distaff

Amazing you aren't impressed by that but were blown away with Zardana's dirt wins in south america that you didnt even see. :lol:

Right. LIS finished behind those monsters Anabaa's Creation, Lethal Heat (twice), and Cocoa Beach. Combined they had what 2 wins out of 17 starts? And yeah LIS finished third in the HGC losing to Rail Trip, she also finished behind the monster Tres Borrachos whose sole win last year was in an allowance.

[ghostyapper]

The bias is to the point where it's actually getting amusing now. Look at the detailed breakdown of Life is sweets year and picking out any negative they can find. Ask these same people about Macho Again and Flashing?

They'll only be singing their virtues.

Pllllease please RA win your next race, please. While they were unbearable last year, your fans are even MORE unbearable while you're losing :bang:

[DeanT]

It's a crazy time here. A decent handicapping type topic and all these pages, that I think we've seen before :)

Have we ever seen this before in racing here?

I had a laugh today because I notice ITP changed his sig line. Usually he is talking about track execs in his sig lines, but not any longer. He is more than likely a low to mid seven fig bettor, who like most of those types, couldnt care less about the name of a horse; just if they are going to win or lose so he can make some scratch. But in this case he let's some thoughts be known.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/member.php?userid=760

Crazy time. :)

[Fager Fan]

Put your tongue away for a minute. International, national and regional standards recognise that freedom of speech, as one form of freedom of expression, applies to any medium, including the Internet.

This is funny. You do realize that we're not ruled by "international" standards, right? And that standards are not laws?

No one has the "right to free speech" here. This is a private website.

[thaskalos]

This is funny. You do realize that we're not ruled by "international" standards, right? And that standards are not laws?

No one has the "right to free speech" here. This is a private website. And if we dare to speak up...is there a punishment?

[andymays]

And if we dare to speak up...is there a punishment?


"No soup for you"

[Dahoss9698]

How did we get to RA from Life is Sweet?

Because some people cannot discuss anything related to Zenyatta without putting down Rachel. It's unfortunate.

[andymays]

Because some people cannot discuss anything related to Zenyatta without putting down Rachel. It's unfortunate.


I didn't notice. :D

[senortout]

This is funny. You do realize that we're not ruled by "international" standards, right? And that standards are not laws?

No one has the "right to free speech" here. This is a private website.

That may well be true, administrators can take down anything they wish, but are judged by what they actually do remove, and by what they leave up.

senortout

[Dahoss9698]

And if we dare to speak up...is there a punishment?

Are you really going to pretend there is a lot of censorship here? Come on.

[thaskalos]

Because some people cannot discuss anything related to Zenyatta without putting down Rachel. It's unfortunate. What is unfortunate is the fact that Zenyatta needs more excuses for winning in "slow" times, than Rachel needs for losing outright at 1-5...repeatedly!!

[thaskalos]

Are you really going to pretend there is a lot of censorship here? Come on. No...I was just responding to Fager Fan about the lack of the right to freedom of speech on this board...

[Dahoss9698]

No...I was just responding to Fager Fan about the lack of the right to freedom of speech on this board...


This is priceless stuff. :lol:

[thaskalos]

This is priceless stuff. :lol: Look at Fager Fan's post above (#75)...isn't that what he said?

[joanied]

"No soup for you"

Hey Andy.... are you the 'soup nazi' :eek: :lol:

[letswastemoney]

Although she is talented, being a Zenyatta fan is beyond difficult just because I feel like I'm being tricked into liking Zenyatta, rather than liking her on her own merits.

I know what a good campaign should look like (see Cigar, Skip Away), and just because Zenyatta is female does not mean she should be held to a lower standard, because she's already proven she belongs competing at the top level.

Knowing Zenyatta might be as talented as those 2 horses is disheartening, because unless she has a similar campaign, we'll never know if she's that good, and therefore it will never be a fair comparison, because those types of horses faced open company all year, while Zenyatta gets to hide behind her wall of female restricted races.

[Dahoss9698]

Look at Fager Fan's post above (#75)...isn't that what he said?

Talking about freedom of speech, on a horse racing message board is funny to me. What can I say?

[cj]

What is unfortunate is the fact that Zenyatta needs more excuses for winning in "slow" times, than Rachel needs for losing outright at 1-5...repeatedly!!

I don't recall people making excuses for her. They have said she doesn't appear to be the same horse, or that she might be short. She clearly is not losing while running as well as she did last year.

[thaskalos]

Although she is talented, being a Zenyatta fan is beyond difficult just because I feel like I'm being tricked into liking Zenyatta, rather than liking her on her own merits.

I know what a good campaign should look like (see Cigar, Skip Away), and just because Zenyatta is female does not mean she should be held to a lower standard, because she's already proven she belongs competing at the top level.

Knowing Zenyatta might be as talented as those 2 horses is disheartening, because unless she has a similar campaign, we'll never know if she's that good, and therefore it will never be a fair comparison, because those types of horses faced open company all year, while Zenyatta gets to hide behind her wall of female restricted races. Nobody said that Zenyatta should be compared in ability to the greatest male horses in the sport's history. She is a mare, and she should be looked at as such. How many mares can we name that have repeatedly challenged the best male older horses around, like Zenyatta figures to do when she runs in the BC Classic again this year?

[thaskalos]

I don't recall people making excuses for her. They have said she doesn't appear to be the same horse, or that she might be short. She clearly is not losing while running as well as she did last year. CJ...you are no doubt a nice guy, and I have been waiting for over a year to subscribe to your figures because I hold your opinions in high esteem.

Would you please answer a question for me...I have asked PA but, as of yet, I have never gotten an answer?

Isn't it unheard of for a Grade 1 MARE to be 16-0, while running exclusively in Grade 1 races, including the BC Classic? Is there any proof that long winning streaks are easier to come by on the "plastic" than on the dirt? Has there been another MARE in recent memory that has repeatedly run in the BC Classic, which Zennyatta figures to do again this year?

If we are blaming Zenyatta for winning in "slow" times, why aren't we being as critical of other "faster" horses when they lose races that they should easily win?

[FenceBored]

CJ...you are no doubt a nice guy, and I have been waiting for over a year to subscribe to your figures because I hold your opinions in high esteem.

Would you please answer a question for me...I have asked PA but, as of yet, I have never gotten an answer?

Isn't it unheard of for a Grade 1 MARE to be 16-0, while running exclusively in Grade 1 races, including the BC Classic? Is there any proof that long winning streaks are easier to come by on the "plastic" than on the dirt? Has there been another MARE in recent memory that has repeatedly run in the BC Classic, which Zennyatta figures to do again this year?

If we are blaming Zenyatta for winning in "slow" times, why aren't we being as critical of other "faster" horses when they lose races that they should easily win?

And this, Nikki, is why people will keep bringing up the fields in Zenyatta's races from last year. If someone wants to tout the fact that she won those distaff G1 and G2 races then it's fair for someone else to question whether the fields were high quality, or if it really took a G1 or G2 effort, or if such an effort was made to win it. It's just that simple.

[Hanover1]

If she is not ready, at or near 100% the connection just will not run her. Her fitness will not be their excuse if she gets beat.
Goes out and wins her last out, in usual fashion, and she is not fit :confused:

[thaskalos]

And this, Nikki, is why people will keep bringing up the fields in Zenyatta's races from last year. If someone wants to tout the fact that she won those distaff G1 and G2 races then it's fair for someone else to question whether the fields were high quality, or if it really took a G1 or G2 effort, or if such an effort was made to win it. It's just that simple. Even if those fields were not what you might call stellar, shouldn't she have lost at least a couple of times? Do you see any other high class undefeated horses around?

[Dahoss9698]

Even if those fields were not what you might call stellar, shouldn't she have lost at least a couple of times? Do you see any other high class undefeated horses around?

So what is your point? What would you like everyone to say? She's the greatest of all time? What comment would satisfy you?

[Greyfox]

Goes out and wins her last out, in usual fashion, and she is not fit :confused:

If a horse wins a race that doesn't mean that they are fit after the race.
It only means that they were fit enough to win that race going into it.
Races alter electrolytes, drain energy reserves, tear tissue and so on.
McSock is right. The connections won't run her until they are very sure that she is fit.

[thaskalos]

So what is your point? What would you like everyone to say? She's the greatest of all time? What comment would satisfy you? That she is one of the greatest mares to ever appear on a racetrack...that's all!

[Audioslavery]

Zenyatta has more personality and intelligence than most of the posters in this thread it would seem.

[Greyfox]

Zenyatta has more personality and intelligence than most of the posters in this thread it would seem.

That's just common horse sense.

[Dahoss9698]

That she is one of the greatest mares to ever appear on a racetrack...that's all!

She probably is. Can she at least retire before we crown her? Maybe see a race on dirt against males? I think that is really what some of us would like to see.

[Dahoss9698]

Zenyatta has more personality and intelligence than most of the posters in this thread it would seem.

I think the same could be said for her followers.

[Space Monkey]

DaHoss, she beat the best the WORLD had to offer on poly. Ruffian never ran against males before her tragic match race and I might be wrong, but I don't think Personal Ensign ran against the best males of her era either. Z's races on dirt are no different than her poly races. They might even be better. I think she could run on dirt, poly, tar, sand, tile, linoleum,,,it wouldn't matter. She's the best and she's a star. The game needs horse like her. If she was a colt she would be considered in the same class as Secretariat.

[gm10]

I'm curious why Life is Sweet is suddenly held in such high esteem. She won the Distaff with the dream trip of all time...big deal. Her accomplishments before and after are decidedly mediocre.

Yes - every horse that Zenyatta beat is mediocre for you, we know your highly sophisticated approach to American horse racing by now. Still, it's funny how the tone has shifted from how good RA is, to how good RA was, to how good Zenyatta isn't.

[cj]

CJ...you are no doubt a nice guy, and I have been waiting for over a year to subscribe to your figures because I hold your opinions in high esteem.

Would you please answer a question for me...I have asked PA but, as of yet, I have never gotten an answer?

Isn't it unheard of for a Grade 1 MARE to be 16-0, while running exclusively in Grade 1 races, including the BC Classic? Is there any proof that long winning streaks are easier to come by on the "plastic" than on the dirt? Has there been another MARE in recent memory that has repeatedly run in the BC Classic, which Zennyatta figures to do again this year?

If we are blaming Zenyatta for winning in "slow" times, why aren't we being as critical of other "faster" horses when they lose races that they should easily win?

I think what she has done is outstanding, and winning is always to be applauded. I am just disappointed in the proposed schedule this year and the way it is playing out. I keep hearing she can run faster, but I spelled out why I think we have seen her best in the "Where is the old Rachel A" thread. I don't want to repost it here, but that sums it up for me if you are interested. She is a high quality horse that has done something special, but even so I don't think she is an all time great. Again, I could be wrong, but if she isn't tested this year we won't know.

[gm10]

I think the same could be said for her followers.

Well, we are still waiting to get beaten. You know where to find us if you're finally up for the challenge.

[Dahoss9698]

DaHoss, she beat the best the WORLD had to offer on poly. Ruffian never ran against males before her tragic match race and I might be wrong, but I don't think Personal Ensign ran against the best males of her era either. Z's races on dirt are no different than her poly races. They might even be better. I think she could run on dirt, poly, tar, sand, tile, linoleum,,,it wouldn't matter. She's the best and she's a star. The game needs horse like her. If she was a colt she would be considered in the same class as Secretariat.

I can't argue this any further. That was not the best in the WORLD. Personal Ensign won the Whitney and no one with any sense would consider her in the same class as Secretariat regardless of her sex.

She's a very nice horse. Wanting her to be an all time great because she is a good dancer doesn't make her one.

Let me ask you or anyone else a question, because it was (shockingly) ignored the first time I asked it. If Nick Zito kept Commentator in NYB races strictly, what do you think his record would have looked like?

[Dahoss9698]

Well, we are still waiting to get beaten. You know where to find us if you're finally up for the challenge.

Yes, beating up on the same tired tomato cans. How exciting.

[cj]

Yes, beating up on the same tired tomato cans. How exciting.

I bet Hank Aaron would have hit 1500 home runs if he played in Triple A for 20+ years.

[Space Monkey]

While I don't want to demean PE in any way, the Whitney was a 3 horse field. She beat a very good hrse inGulch. You can't compare that with Z's BC Classic win.

I didn't mean to say that Z would be considered as good as Big Red. Like all NBA players after MJ, they are compared to,but not elevated to equal or above. Same for Z. Best F/M of all time. Maybe. Best horse,,No.

[Dahoss9698]

While I don't want to demean PE in any way, the Whitney was a 3 horse field. She beat a very good hrse inGulch. You can't compare that with Z's BC Classic win.

I didn't mean to say that Z would be considered as good as Big Red. Like all NBA players after MJ, they are compared to,but not elevated to equal or above. Same for Z. Best F/M of all time. Maybe. Best horse,,No.

I realize it was a 3 horse field, but in it were Gulch (a lot better than anything Zenyatta faced) and King Swan who was certainly no sluch.

The Classic win was an impressive victory. I won't get into field quality and all of that, because it has been beaten to death.

I just haven't seen enough to consider her best female of all time. Maybe top 5. But I still think she would have a hard time beating some other nice fillies of the last 15 years on dirt.

[Greyfox]

Yes, beating up on the same tired tomato cans. How exciting.

You can say that. You can even believe it.
Most of the races are G level races. If you or anyone else has a mare of that level you could enter against her. Amazing though the supposed competition just hasn't apparently shown up, even when she shipped. (That's not her fault.)
But for those of you who think that she has just been beating tomato cans please tell us:

"Who has Zenyatta avoided?"

[letswastemoney]

Nobody said that Zenyatta should be compared in ability to the greatest male horses in the sport's history. She is a mare, and she should be looked at as such. How many mares can we name that have repeatedly challenged the best male older horses around, like Zenyatta figures to do when she runs in the BC Classic again this year?She has only tried once, and if she runs in the BC Classic (which I don't think is a sure thing if they want to protect her record), she will have only tried males twice.

Yet people on this board are saying she's one of the greatest ever, and the greatest in training at the moment. No way to know if she's the greatest in training if she only faces open company once a year.

If she is a mare and should be looked at as such...then fine. But I don't buy that she can dust horses on dirt like Quality Road. Heck I don't buy she can beat Rachel. Zenyatta is being protected and ramped up for just one race and I think that's pretty boring.

[letswastemoney]

You can say that. You can even believe it.
Most of the races are G level races. If you or anyone else has a mare of that level you could enter against her. Amazing though the supposed competition just hasn't apparently shown up, even when she shipped. (That's not her fault.)
But for those of you who think that she has just been beating tomato cans please tell us:

"Who has Zenyatta avoided?"
Rail Trip

[letswastemoney]

Also consider next week's Met Mile, which was open to Zenyatta and will probably feature Quality Road if I'm not mistaken, will not have Zenyatta in the field.

[Hanover1]

If a horse wins a race that doesn't mean that they are fit after the race.
It only means that they were fit enough to win that race going into it.
Races alter electrolytes, drain energy reserves, tear tissue and so on.
McSock is right. The connections won't run her until they are very sure that she is fit.
Gee, and to think I never knew this after training horses all these years... :rolleyes: Perhaps its more of waiting for the right spot? Deep closers are a cinch to keep sharp, despite what any clocker might toss at the media ;)

[Dahoss9698]

You can say that. You can even believe it.
Most of the races are G level races. If you or anyone else has a mare of that level you could enter against her. Amazing though the supposed competition just hasn't apparently shown up, even when she shipped. (That's not her fault.)
But for those of you who think that she has just been beating tomato cans please tell us:

"Who has Zenyatta avoided?"

She avoided males all last year prior to the BC. Her stablemate ran against males, but for some reason Zenyatta wasn't allowed to. They have already ruled out a trip to Churchill for the Stephen Foster as well as the Hollywood Gold Cup. That is a lot of avoiding.

Come on, can you sit there with a straight face and say (other than the BC) that she has faced strong competition? She can't control who shows up to face her, but that doesn';t mean we aren't allowed to honestly discuss who she has beaten.

[thaskalos]

She has only tried once, and if she runs in the BC Classic (which I don't think is a sure thing if they want to protect her record), she will have only tried males twice.

Yet people on this board are saying she's one of the greatest ever, and the greatest in training at the moment. No way to know if she's the greatest in training if she only faces open company once a year.

If she is a mare and should be looked at as such...then fine. But I don't buy that she can dust horses on dirt like Quality Road. Heck I don't buy she can beat Rachel. Zenyatta is being protected and ramped up for just one race and I think that's pretty boring. IMO, it's OK if she faces males once a year...as long as it's in the BC Classic.

[Tom]

Word of warning....do NOT take tomatoes lightly!
w6ZRPZUnCcQ&feature=related

[cj]

Rail Trip

Yes, Shirreffs did proclaim him the highest mountain.

[Greyfox]

She avoided males all last year prior to the BC. Her stablemate ran against males, but for some reason Zenyatta wasn't allowed to.
Come on, can you sit there with a straight face and say (other than the BC) that she has faced strong competition? She can't control who shows up to face her, but that doesn';t mean we aren't allowed to honestly discuss who she has beaten.

Does the stablemate have the same owner. We're not talking about the stablemate. We're talking about Zenyatta.

I should have been more specific.
What females has Zenyatta avoided??

(Surely you can't sit there with a straight face and say "She avoided males." No one is suggesting that some male can't beat her. Some probably can. Males are typically bigger and stronger. She's a damn good mare. )

[thaskalos]

She avoided males all last year prior to the BC. Her stablemate ran against males, but for some reason Zenyatta wasn't allowed to. They have already ruled out a trip to Churchill for the Stephen Foster as well as the Hollywood Gold Cup. That is a lot of avoiding.

Come on, can you sit there with a straight face and say (other than the BC) that she has faced strong competition? She can't control who shows up to face her, but that doesn';t mean we aren't allowed to honestly discuss who she has beaten. It is typical for mares to avoid repeated confrontations with the best older male horses...that's how it has always been. When you say "other than the BC Classic" she has not faced strong competition, you are not being fair, because the BC Classic is this country's championship race. How many championship contests should a horse (or a sports team, or a boxer for that matter) win before it can be declared the champion?

[thaskalos]

If a boxer defeated nothing but "cream-puff" competition all year...but then he faced the world champion and defeated him too fair and square, do we doubt the legitimacy of his world championship belt?

[Dahoss9698]

Does the stablemate have the same owner. We're not talking about the stablemate. We're talking about Zenyatta.

I should have been more specific.
What females has Zenyatta avoided??

(Surely you can't sit there with a straight face and say "She avoided males." No one is suggesting that some male can't beat her. Some probably can. Males are typically bigger and stronger. She's a damn good mare. )

Why can't I say she's avoided males? She has.

And you must not read much here if you don't think people suggest males can't beat her. The males are typically stronger and bigger just doesn't cut it anymore. If she is going to be talked about as an all timer (which she is) than the males are bigger stuff is ridiculous.

[Dahoss9698]

It is typical for mares to avoid repeated confrontations with the best older male horses...that's how it has always been. When you say "other than the BC Classic" she has not faced strong competition, you are not being fair, because the BC Classic is this country's championship race. How many championship contests should a horse (or a sports team, or a boxer for that matter) win before it can be declared the champion?

How come females don't avoid males in other countries?

Does Goldikova avoid facing males?

Obviously not all view the BC as this countries championship race because winning on that day has not equaled HOY honors for Zenyatta.

How many of the same arguements are you going to recycle before you realize you are not going to be able to change mine or anyone else's mind? Zenyatta can change our mind, if her connections decide to challenge her.

Perspective is a great thing. Look at that list of fillies CJ posted a few days ago and tell me how many of them you are confident Zenyatta could beat.

[thaskalos]

Why can't I say she's avoided males? She has.

And you must not read much here if you don't think people suggest males can't beat her. The males are typically stronger and bigger just doesn't cut it anymore. If she is going to be talked about as an all timer (which she is) than the males are bigger stuff is ridiculous. Should we also be blaming female athletes in the Olympics for not competing against their male counterparts? How can "the males are bigger stuff" be ridiculous if they are a fact?

Nobody on this board has EVER said that Zenyatta is one of the all-time best horses. That's just a convenient argument used by her detractors.

[Dahoss9698]

Should we also be blaming female athletes in the Olympics for not competing against their male counterparts? How can "the males are bigger stuff" be ridiculous if they are a fact?

Nobody on this board has EVER said that Zenyatta is one of the all-time best horses. That's just a convenient argument used by her detractors.

So most male horses are bigger than Zenyatta? The olympic stuff is a worse analogy than your boxing one, which is impressive.

Your second paragraph is pretty funny. You obviously don't read many threads here either.

[thaskalos]

How come females don't avoid males in other countries?

Does Goldikova avoid facing males?

Obviously not all view the BC as this countries championship race because winning on that day has not equaled HOY honors for Zenyatta.

How many of the same arguements are you going to recycle before you realize you are not going to be able to change mine or anyone else's mind? Zenyatta can change our mind, if her connections decide to challenge her.

Perspective is a great thing. Look at that list of fillies CJ posted a few days ago and tell me how many of them you are confident Zenyatta could beat. I looked at the list of fillies that CJ posted a few days ago...and I think Zenyatta can beat EVERY SINGLE ONE!

[Dahoss9698]

I looked at the list of fillies that CJ posted a few days ago...and I think Zenyatta can beat EVERY SINGLE ONE!

How long have you followed the sport?

[Greyfox]

If she is going to be talked about as an all timer (which she is) than the males are bigger stuff is ridiculous.

Go ahead and bet the females racing against males then in most races and find out what your bankroll soon looks like. Sorry, but you are perceived as being ridiculous penning that. Just check at any track the comparative times of females vs males.

1. She beat males in the Breeders Cup. Myself and several other wise guys here didn't think she had a snow ball's chance in hell. We were wrong.

2. A horse is usually compared to how they run against their own gender.

3. If you're not going to accept that, we might as well say she can't beat a cheetah either. That would bring a crowd. The Breeders' Cup Species Challenge.

4. You haven't named any fillies or mares that she's avoided.

5. I would have retired her last year, but that's not my call.

6.

Have a good night.

[Dahoss9698]

Go ahead and bet the females racing against males then in most races and find out what your bankroll soon looks like. Sorry, but you are perceived as being ridiculous penning that. Just check at any track the comparative times of females vs males.

1. She beat males in the Breeders Cup. Myself and several other wise guys here didn't think she had a snow ball's chance in hell. We were wrong.

2. A horse is usually compared to how they run against their own gender.

3. If you're not going to accept that, we might as well say she can't beat a cheetah either. That would bring a crowd. The Breeders' Cup Species Challenge.

4. You haven't named any fillies or mares that she's avoided.

5. I would have retired her last year, but that's not my call.

6.

Have a good night.

Hard to argue with any of this. :lol:

[Dahoss9698]

I'm also surprised no one will go near my question about Commentator.

[thaskalos]

How long have you followed the sport? Easy there...

[Dahoss9698]

Easy there...

I think it's a fair question. Some of the fillies on the list were from at least 15 years ago, so if you aren't familiar with them, how could you give an honest opinion?

[thaskalos]

I think it's a fair question. Some of the fillies on the list were from at least 15 years ago, so if you aren't familiar with them, how could you give an honest opinion? I have been playing this game EVERY DAY, non-stop, (with the exception of mondays, which are my days off), since 1981.

[Dahoss9698]

I have been playing this game EVERY DAY, non-stop, (with the exception of mondays, which are my days off), since 1981.

So you think Zenyatta would have beaten Riboletta, Inside Information and Paseana?

[thaskalos]

So you think Zenyatta would have beaten Riboletta, Inside Information and Paseana? Listen...I don't want to create arguments, and I know that when it comes to opinions, there is no right or wrong. You are intitled to your opinion, and I am to mine. But I do know this:

In all my years playing this game I have never seen another horse capable of wearing the "superstar" label better than Zenyatta. She may not run the fastest...but she has the will to win, and you can't measure that with speed figures. She is so visually impressive while she runs her races, that it's hard to imagine her ever losing.

Is she one of the best ever? Of course not. In fact, if she races long enough I am sure she will lose at some point. They all do. There are so many ways to lose a race that I am shocked that she is still undefeated.

But with our sport going through the tough times that it's currently going through...this horse is one of the few bright stars in a very dark sky...and I, for one, am glad to have seen her perform her magic for as long as she is allowed to...

[Dahoss9698]

Fair enough. She's a cool horse and an exceptional talent. Just not an all timer IMO (yet).

I just get tired of all of the hyperbole surrounding her. From her personality, dancing, how she visually races, etc. I prefer to let the horses talents on track speak for themselves.

I think Goldikova has accomplished much more, beaten males twice in the BC and she's never in all time discussions (and probably rightly so).

[thaskalos]

It was a pleasure chatting with you...

[Kimsus]

Why is Zenyatta the only horse, female horse that is expected to run in all of the toughest races that you wouldn't expect the so called best male Quality Road to run in when Sheriffs has already said the BC Classic is the goal, wouldn't most consider him a lunatic of the Lukas mold if he runs her in the ships to the Foster, ships for the Whitney, ships for the JCGC, and then ships in for the BC Classic. What West coast horse can realistically handle this? It's just silly people say they want to see her tested, when perhaps in reality they want to see her beaten. I do believe their are a small few like me that wouldn't minded a trip to CD for the Foster and than given time to recover for the Classic, but be real here, those that want to see her ship for all of the above races I mentioned probably have ulterior motives.

[letswastemoney]

Why is Zenyatta the only horse, female horse that is expected to run in all of the toughest races that you wouldn't expect the so called best male Quality Road to run in when Sheriffs has already said the BC Classic is the goal, wouldn't most consider him a lunatic of the Lukas mold if he runs her in the ships to the Foster, ships for the Whitney, ships for the JCGC, and then ships in for the BC Classic. What West coast horse can realistically handle this? It's just silly people say they want to see her tested, when perhaps in reality they want to see her beaten. I do believe their are a small few like me that wouldn't minded a trip to CD for the Foster and than given time to recover for the Classic, but be real here, those that want to see her ship for all of the above races I mentioned probably have ulterior motives.
Nothing stopping her from the Hollywood Gold Cup though. Right on her home course. And it would be against a horse that would give her more credibility (Rail Trip).

[Kimsus]

Nothing stopping her from the Hollywood Gold Cup though. Right on her home course. And it would be against a horse that would give her more credibility (Rail Trip).

Rail Trip is going to give her cred when the BC Classic couldn't, please. Rail Trip is one overrated horse as Zardana was on dirt. The year will play itself out you may get your wish as they get closer to the BC.

[Kimsus]

Nothing stopping her from the Hollywood Gold Cup though. Right on her home course. And it would be against a horse that would give her more credibility (Rail Trip).

Let me add if she is going to face males, let's agree it's the best males in training. Why run her against males that might be considered second rate. i think that is part of the problem some people have with well I promise to try not to mention her name. But that's not what I want for Zenyatta and you wouldn't want her to face Rail Trip if you really wanted to see the bottom of her, you are really hoping she just runs to hopefully lose.

[Dahoss9698]

Why is Zenyatta the only horse, female horse that is expected to run in all of the toughest races that you wouldn't expect the so called best male Quality Road to run in when Sheriffs has already said the BC Classic is the goal, wouldn't most consider him a lunatic of the Lukas mold if he runs her in the ships to the Foster, ships for the Whitney, ships for the JCGC, and then ships in for the BC Classic. What West coast horse can realistically handle this? It's just silly people say they want to see her tested, when perhaps in reality they want to see her beaten. I do believe their are a small few like me that wouldn't minded a trip to CD for the Foster and than given time to recover for the Classic, but be real here, those that want to see her ship for all of the above races I mentioned probably have ulterior motives.


As usual, you exaggerate in an attempt to make a point. No one is expecting her to ship all of those times. One would be nice though. And instead of padding her record against the same tomato cans, how about a start against males in California?

I don't think that is unrealistic.

[Nikki1997]

Fair enough. She's a cool horse and an exceptional talent. Just not an all timer IMO (yet).

I just get tired of all of the hyperbole surrounding her. From her personality, dancing, how she visually races, etc. I prefer to let the horses talents on track speak for themselves.
I think Goldikova has accomplished much more, beaten males twice in the BC and she's never in all time discussions (and probably rightly so).

LOL. Zenyatta has been running since 11/2007. She just hasn't fulfilled YOUR expectations. Thing is, she never will. You will always find something else for her to do. Her talents scream how special she is and you are deaf.

My suggestion? Don't watch her, don't comment on her, pretend she doesn't exist. She doesn't need you.

[Dahoss9698]

LOL. Zenyatta has been running since 11/2007. She just hasn't fulfilled YOUR expectations. Thing is, she never will. You will always find something else for her to do. Her talents scream how special she is and you are deaf.

My suggestion? Don't watch her, don't comment on her, pretend she doesn't exist. She doesn't need you.

How many times would both of your personalities like me to say how talented I think she is? I get involved in these conversations when people start throwing superlatives her way that I think are undeserved.

[Kimsus]

As usual, you exaggerate in an attempt to make a point. No one is expecting her to ship all of those times. One would be nice though. And instead of padding her record against the same tomato cans, how about a start against males in California?

I don't think that is unrealistic.

Note my last reply above, I mentioned the SF and I do believe Moss was seriously considering it but then changed their minds and thought it wasn't a good time. I would add what the possible reasons were but I know this would probably not satisfy you.

[Dahoss9698]

Note my last reply above, I mentioned the SF and I do believe Moss was seriously considering it but then changed their minds and thought it wasn't a good time. I would add what the possible reasons were but I know this would probably not satisfy you.

I'll tread lightly because I don't want you to accuse me of bullying again....But if you think they were seriously considering the Foster I have a bridge to sell you. They have no plans to leave California before the BC. It's BC or bust. 11 months of the year don't matter. Just November.

[Kimsus]

I'll tread lightly because I don't want you to accuse me of bullying again....But if you think they were seriously considering the Foster I have a bridge to sell you. They have no plans to leave California before the BC. It's BC or bust. 11 months of the year don't matter. Just November.

There's no way to prove either way so it's probably pointless to speculate since everyone will have their opinion. I believe if they were not pointing for the BC they may very had tried, Sheriffs has a great understanding of his horses and he knows there are maybe 3-4 more races in her to give and that is why he is choosing the best path to get to the BC at the top of her game. Ok I know people hate the BC because of this, but Moss views it as the highest set of races.

[Kimsus]

:sleeping: bedtime.

[depalma113]

Let me add if she is going to face males, let's agree it's the best males in training. Why run her against males that might be considered second rate. i think that is part of the problem some people have with well I promise to try not to mention her name. But that's not what I want for Zenyatta and you wouldn't want her to face Rail Trip if you really wanted to see the bottom of her, you are really hoping she just runs to hopefully lose.


Who cares about males, just get her out of California. There are plenty of races east of the Missisippi River against her own sex that carry the grade one label, there is no reason for her not be in them. The Apple Blossom was supposed to be the start of this showcase season.

Remember last two years it was because the Breeders Cup was in her backyard, she didn't need to ship. That is no longer the case.

If she runs in the Classic and doesn't win, she is going to be labeled a synthetic track specialist for eternity. If she runs the table in dirt races this year it will go a long way to truely proving she is as great as so many hope she is.

[gm10]

Amazing how many people are begrudging Zenyatta's succes. She must be very good indeed.

[FenceBored]

Let me add if she is going to face males, let's agree it's the best males in training. Why run her against males that might be considered second rate. i think that is part of the problem some people have with well I promise to try not to mention her name. But that's not what I want for Zenyatta and you wouldn't want her to face Rail Trip if you really wanted to see the bottom of her, you are really hoping she just runs to hopefully lose.

Why do you have so little faith in Zenyatta's abilities?

[FenceBored]

Who cares about males, just get her out of California. There are plenty of races east of the Missisippi River against her own sex that carry the grade one label, there is no reason for her not be in them. The Apple Blossom was supposed to be the start of this showcase season.

Remember last two years it was because the Breeders Cup was in her backyard, she didn't need to ship. That is no longer the case.

If she runs in the Classic and doesn't win, she is going to be labeled a synthetic track specialist for eternity. If she runs the table in dirt races this year it will go a long way to truely proving she is as great as so many hope she is.

:eek: Hey! What are you trying to do, make sense? We don't hold with that kinda thing around here. :D

[cj]

Let me add if she is going to face males, let's agree it's the best males in training. Why run her against males that might be considered second rate. i think that is part of the problem some people have with well I promise to try not to mention her name. But that's not what I want for Zenyatta and you wouldn't want her to face Rail Trip if you really wanted to see the bottom of her, you are really hoping she just runs to hopefully lose.

Her own trainer called Rail Trip "the highest mountain" and said he isn't looking to climb those.

[gm10]

Why do you have so little faith in Zenyatta's abilities?

I think your answer reveals all. He got it exactly right.

[gm10]

Her own trainer called Rail Trip "the highest mountain" and said he isn't looking to climb those.

Another piece of word manipulation. Why do you do it? What is it with Zenyatta that makes you do this?

Shirreffs was asked if there was any chance Zenyatta would run in the Hollywood Gold Cup against males. Shirreffs responded, "No. We're not looking to climb the highest mountain possible. She's proven herself now."

[FenceBored]

I think your answer reveals all. He got it exactly right.

Hmm, how's that? You think it shows great faith in 'your' horse to say that they should avoid better competition and run against lesser lights solely to perserve a winning streak? That really is Pepper's Pride-like.

[FenceBored]

Another piece of word manipulation. Why do you do it? What is it with Zenyatta that makes you do this?

Shirreffs was asked if there was any chance Zenyatta would run in the Hollywood Gold Cup against males. Shirreffs responded, "No. We're not looking to climb the highest mountain possible. She's proven herself now."

He's still saying they're going to keep her in the foothills instead of doing any real mountain climbing.

We're not demanding Everest or K2 at this point, Mt. Whitney would be a good start, or if they need to work up to that, how about Toro Peak (in honor of the El Solo Toro, the best thing that's ever happened to Mr. Moss).

16B5Xm8_IKw

Catchy little tune. :ThmbUp:

(Yes, I now have this album on my MP3 player.)

[Fager Fan]

How come females don't avoid males in other countries?

Does Goldikova avoid facing males?
.

Goldikova races on turf. Turfs and sprints are equalizers for females, being that the female doesn't have to run fast for but a sprint distance. Running long on dirt is a different matter. Running against our best on dirt requires running fast the whole way around, and that's a task few females are up to. Thus far, between Rachel and Zenyatta, only Rachel has proven up to that task.

[Headbanger]

Whoever made the comment about Personal Ensign not facing males, dahoss, can you repeat that Billy Madison clip because it is of perfect relevance here...

Personal Ensign didn't have to face males because she defeated and competed in what was arguably the best Distaff race in the history of the Breeders Cup defeating the Grade 1 Kentucky Derby winning filly Winning Colors, Las Virgines, Mother Goose, Kentucky Oaks, and Coaching Club American Oaks winner Goodbye Halo, Grade 1 Ruffian Handicap winner Sham Say, Grade 1 Frizette and Gazelle Winner Classic Crown, G1 Spinster winner Hail a Cab, Champion 2YO and BC Juvenile Filly winner Epitome, G1 Ashland winner Willa on the Move, and Grade 2 winner Integra...

So don't even go there questioning Personal Ensign's quality against Zenyatta. Personal Ensign faced a field of 9 in that BC Distaff in 1988 with 8 of them being Grade 1 winners, so really there was no reason for Personal Ensign to challenge males considering she had a deep enough division to go against as is with one of those horses being the Derby winner. Rather than Zenyatta facing allowance tomato cans like she has been doing for the last year and a half and it cost her a horse of the year title.

[Greyfox]

Rather than Zenyatta facing allowance tomato cans like she has been doing for the last year and a half and it cost her a horse of the year title.

Yes. Isn't Zenyatta a terrible thing. She only beat every runner that she ever raced against, including males in the Breeders' Cup. That only 4 would show up against her in the Apple Blossom with $ 500,000 on the line says how terrible she really is. Crap she's only made $5,924,580 in earnings so far. Ain't she awful. They sure put up good cash for tomatos these days, eh.

(Oops. I almost forgot. There was going to be $ 5 million on the line at the Apple Blossom, but some one wasn't ready to dance.)

[Headbanger]

Yes. Isn't Zenyatta a terrible thing. She only beat every runner that she ever raced against, including males in the Breeders' Cup. That only 4 would show up against her in the Apple Blossom with $ 500,000 on the line says how terrible she really is. Crap she's only made $5,924,580 in earnings so far. Ain't she awful. They sure put up good cash for tomatos these days, eh.

(Oops. I almost forgot. There was going to be $ 5 million on the line at the Apple Blossom, but some one wasn't ready to dance.)

Oh please, do you believe the drivel that you are spewing?

She beat TURF horses on Polyturf in the Breeders Cup Classic. Last I looked we already have a Breeders Cup Turf race, we didn't need a 2nd one. Only 4 showed up because racing is severly watered down.

(Oops, I almost forgot that the Zenyattatards have zero common sense and not much for brains)

Jackson and Assmussen said that if the horse was fit and ready she would be there. She wasn't fit and wasn't ready therefore there was no reason to go. It showed in her last two races that she wasn't totally ready and cranked up, but the sad part is, she's still faster than Zenyatta and still ran faster than Zenyatta's painfully slow Apple Blossom. Not that Zenyatta's a bad horse but she ain't no Azeri or an all-time great yet.

[hazzardm]

Not that Zenyatta's a bad horse but she ain't no Azeri or an all-time great yet.

Rube :ThmbDown:

[Greyfox]

Only 4 showed up because racing is severly watered down.

(Oops, I almost forgot that the Zenyattatards have zero common sense and not much for brains)

.

The above is nominated for The PA Message Board Drivel Award of the Year.

[Headbanger]

The above is nominated for The PA Message Board Drivel Award of the Year.

Do you and the rest of the Zenyattatards even know what drivel is? Because if you did, maybe you would insert your foot in your mouth so you can't spew any more of it.

[gm10]

He's still saying they're going to keep her in the foothills instead of doing any real mountain climbing.

We're not demanding Everest or K2 at this point, Mt. Whitney would be a good start, or if they need to work up to that, how about Toro Peak (in honor of the El Solo Toro, the best thing that's ever happened to Mr. Moss).



(Yes, I now have this album on my MP3 player.)

it's may and you got two grade 1's and a definite yes to defending the crown in the classic
you are being ridiculous suggesting that she needs to build Rail Trip to show that she's very good
nobody in the world - even her biggest fans - are going to call her an all-time great for beating Rail Trip at Hollywood
it's on par with beating Macho Again

[Greyfox]

Do you and the rest of the Zenyattatards even know what drivel is? Because if you did, maybe you would insert your foot in your mouth so you can't spew any more of it.

:7: posts in and we can see that you'll be a winner of some award yet.:lol:

[Headbanger]

it's may and you got two grade 1's and a definite yes to defending the crown in the classic
you are being ridiculous suggesting that she needs to build Rail Trip to show that she's very good
nobody in the world - even her biggest fans - are going to call her an all-time great for beating Rail Trip at Hollywood
it's on par with beating Macho Again

Rail Trip is a pretty damn good horse...we don't even know if she can beat Rail Trip yet. Rail Trip would have a major tactical advantage. How about going East to run, you know against a horse like Quality Road, or Summer Bird, or why not go East to Churchill, Rachel's running the Stephen Foster or Fleur de Lis...go to Churchill, enter both, and run in the race that Rachel enters. But that would be too bold of the Moss's. Pulling a line from Slap-Shot they are chicken-sh!t. Challenge this horse instead of beating up on the Anabaa's Creation's of the world. Apparently as they learned last year, the Breeders Cup isn't necessarily Chamionship Day.

[gm10]

Rail Trip is a pretty damn good horse...we don't even know if she can beat Rail Trip yet. Rail Trip would have a major tactical advantage. How about going East to run, you know against a horse like Quality Road, or Summer Bird, or why not go East to Churchill, Rachel's running the Stephen Foster or Fleur de Lis...go to Churchill, enter both, and run in the race that Rachel enters. But that would be too bold of the Moss's. Pulling a line from Slap-Shot they are chicken-sh!t. Challenge this horse instead of beating up on the Anabaa's Creation's of the world. Apparently as they learned last year, the Breeders Cup isn't necessarily Chamionship Day.

a) Rail Trip hasn't beaten much. He couldn't even beat Richard's Kid.
b) the reason that Zenyatta is still running is because the Moss' have been very patient with her. They have made the Classic her main goal and who are you to say that's not good enough.

[Headbanger]

a) Rail Trip hasn't beaten much. He couldn't even beat Richard's Kid.
b) the reason that Zenyatta is still running is because the Moss' have been very patient with her. They have made the Classic her main goal and who are you to say that's not good enough.

Yet what Rail Trip has beaten is better than what Zenyatta's beaten. So you claim that Rail Trip ain't that good, then run against him and beat him and she can then prove to everyone she's better than him.

That's false, the reason she is running this year is because they want a horse of the year award and they lost out last year because they gave her a babied campaign, and it bit them in the ass. If she had won horse of the year last year, there was zero chance she would have been running this year. But because they ran a soft, easy campaign over synthetics against tomato cans, their campaign bit them in the ass and that's why she's back, try and win a horse of the year award.

[gm10]

Yet what Rail Trip has beaten is better than what Zenyatta's beaten. So you claim that Rail Trip ain't that good, then run against him and beat him and she can then prove to everyone she's better than him.


Sorry, I can't see any merit in that. Unless Rail Trip beats more than Tres Borrachos or Life Is Sweet (!!), there is no need to spend Zenyatta on that.

That's false, the reason she is running this year is because they want a horse of the year award and they lost out last year because they gave her a babied campaign, and it bit them in the ass. If she had won horse of the year last year, there was zero chance she would have been running this year. But because they ran a soft, easy campaign over synthetics against tomato cans, their campaign bit them in the ass and that's why she's back, try and win a horse of the year award.

I don't agree, but I appreciate your frankness.

[Headbanger]

Sorry, I can't see any merit in that. Unless Rail Trip beats more than Tres Borrachos or Life Is Sweet (!!), there is no need to spend Zenyatta on that.



I don't agree, but I appreciate your frankness.

Hell there are a good 5 males I wonder if she could beat...Quality Road, Battle Plan, Rail Trip, Blame, and Summer Bird, and that's not even counting Rachel Alexandra.

Be honest, you really think if she had won Horse of the Year last year and was 14-14 they would have brought her back this year? If that is the case I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

[gm10]

Hell there are a good 5 males I wonder if she could beat...Quality Road, Battle Plan, Rail Trip, Blame, and Summer Bird, and that's not even counting Rachel Alexandra.

Be honest, you really think if she had won Horse of the Year last year and was 14-14 they would have brought her back this year? If that is the case I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

I'm not sure if they would have but I do know that she is unlikely to be voted HOY 2010 with this sort of campaign. They know that too, surely.

[OntheRail]

I'm not sure if they would have but I do know that she is unlikely to be voted HOY 2010 with this sort of campaign. They know that too, surely.

I agree but they are hoping to win it by default... kinda like they tried last year with the lame retirement. Only this year will be her last swing at it and Moss is hoping to get a high sentimental vote for the Mare. As sure as there are little green apple... Moss is not trying to win it on the track hiding in Cali running of flubber.

It's a real shame... cause she may deserve it but we may never know. :bang:

[thaskalos]

Do you and the rest of the Zenyattatards even know what drivel is? Because if you did, maybe you would insert your foot in your mouth so you can't spew any more of it. Of course we know what drivel is. It can be found in every single one of your posts...

[Headbanger]

Of course we know what drivel is. It can be found in every single one of your posts...

Ok there buddy, I'd love to know what I have said that is inaccurate or outlandish that would qualify as drivel...I have simply stated that Zenyatta has yet to prove herself as an all-time great, and that the campaigns that she has embarked on are at fault for her not winning the HOY award last year and that is why she's running again this year.

[thaskalos]

Yet what Rail Trip has beaten is better than what Zenyatta's beaten. So you claim that Rail Trip ain't that good, then run against him and beat him and she can then prove to everyone she's better than him.

That's false, the reason she is running this year is because they want a horse of the year award and they lost out last year because they gave her a babied campaign, and it bit them in the ass. If she had won horse of the year last year, there was zero chance she would have been running this year. But because they ran a soft, easy campaign over synthetics against tomato cans, their campaign bit them in the ass and that's why she's back, try and win a horse of the year award. If they brought Zenyatta back JUST so she can win the HOY award, wouldn't she be running more often? Isn't her campaign this year just as "babied" as last year's campaign was? The horse is back to win the BC Classic again...that's ALL.

Learn something about this game before you start insulting people...

[Greyfox]

Ok there buddy, I'd love to know what I have said that is inaccurate or outlandish that would qualify as drivel....

Drivel?

Seemingly you have a short term verbal memory problem.
Classifying anyone who enjoys Zenyatta as being "Zenyattatards have zero common sense and not much for brains."

That brush stroke is pure drivel. Certainly it is one of the stupidest comments I've seen posted on this message board in a long time.Thousands of people are Zenyatta fans. Many fans of Zenyatta also are fans of Rachel A.

[thaskalos]

Who cares about males, just get her out of California. There are plenty of races east of the Missisippi River against her own sex that carry the grade one label, there is no reason for her not be in them. The Apple Blossom was supposed to be the start of this showcase season.

Remember last two years it was because the Breeders Cup was in her backyard, she didn't need to ship. That is no longer the case.

If she runs in the Classic and doesn't win, she is going to be labeled a synthetic track specialist for eternity. If she runs the table in dirt races this year it will go a long way to truely proving she is as great as so many hope she is. If they forget about males and stick to entering Zenyatta against other mares...it will be a steady diet of 4 or 5 horse fields, no matter which side of the Mississippi the race is held on. And then it will be more of the same..."whom did she beat"?

[Headbanger]

If they brought Zenyatta back JUST so she can win the HOY award, wouldn't she be running more often? Isn't her campaign this year just as "babied" as last year's campaign was? The horse is back to win the BC Classic again...that's ALL.

Learn something about this game before you start insulting people...

I have been in this game for a long time my friend, owned horses, stakes horses, the whole nine yards. The horse is back because she didn't win HOY last year. They figure that if they win the BC Classic on the dirt beating horses such as Quality Road and others, then sure she'll have earned it and she'll be the HOY. But don't think for a second that if she had won HOY last year that they wouldn't have retired her as a 14-14 lifetime HOY with a Breeders Cup Classic win.

[ghostyapper]

why not go East to Churchill, Rachel's running the Stephen Foster or Fleur de Lis...go to Churchill, enter both, and run in the race that Rachel enters.

There was a time last year where the onus might have been on zenyatta to face rachel but that is long gone. Since then Zenyatta has become the first mare ever to win the BC classic and has added another 2 G1 victories to her belt. Why should she chase a horse that hasn't even won this year and is "not fit" as so many on her claim.

We all know if Z were to beat her, all the haters will just brush it off as Rachel not being the same as last year.

[ghostyapper]

Who cares about males, just get her out of California. There are plenty of races east of the Missisippi River against her own sex that carry the grade one label, there is no reason for her not be in them. The Apple Blossom was supposed to be the start of this showcase season.

Remember last two years it was because the Breeders Cup was in her backyard, she didn't need to ship. That is no longer the case.

If she runs in the Classic and doesn't win, she is going to be labeled a synthetic track specialist for eternity. If she runs the table in dirt races this year it will go a long way to truely proving she is as great as so many hope she is.

I'd like to see her ship more. But I already asked one of the haters about her running in the personal ensign, but even that won't do anything for him.

[ghostyapper]

She beat TURF horses on Polyturf in the Breeders Cup Classic. Last I looked we already have a Breeders Cup Turf race, we didn't need a 2nd one. Only 4 showed up because racing is severly watered down.


There were G1 winning males on SYNTHETIC in the race as well. Know I know they weren't anywhere near as good as that monster Macho Again....

[Tom]

I have been in this game for a long time my friend, owned horses, stakes horses, the whole nine yards. The horse is back because she didn't win HOY last year. They figure that if they win the BC Classic on the dirt beating horses such as Quality Road and others, then sure she'll have earned it and she'll be the HOY. But don't think for a second that if she had won HOY last year that they wouldn't have retired her as a 14-14 lifetime HOY with a Breeders Cup Classic win.

What part your vast experience qualifies to speak for others - hot walking or stall mucking?

[FenceBored]

nobody in the world - even her biggest fans - are going to call her an all-time great for beating Rail Trip at Hollywood
it's on par with beating Macho Again

Well, at least it would be a step up from Rip Van Winkle.

[ghostyapper]

Well, at least it would be a step up from Rip Van Winkle.

Don't follow European racing AT ALL I see :eek:

[FenceBored]

Don't follow European racing AT ALL I see :eek:

Didn't watch the BC Classic AT ALL I see :eek:

[ghostyapper]

Didn't watch the BC Classic AT ALL I see :eek:

No I missed it, had to work late that night. Who won?

[FenceBored]

No I missed it, had to work late that night. Who won?


http://www.paulickreport.com/wp-content/uploads/image/Dodgers_Zenyatta_billboard.jpg


Her one real race last year.

[letswastemoney]

Well, at least it would be a step up from Rip Van Winkle.
Forget Rip Van Winkle. I'm tired of seeing Zenyatta beat up those on the same talent level as Pretty Unusual, Be Fair, etc.

Rail Trip, considering he is a G1 winner on synthetics, would be a huge step up from the competition in Zenyatta's last race.

[BluegrassProf]

No I missed it, had to work late that night. Who won?Her reputation.

[PaceAdvantage]

We all know if Z were to beat her, all the haters will just brush it off as Rachel not being the same as last year.At least you used the word if.

[PaceAdvantage]

Nice to see the Administrator and Moderator of the message board here are so impartial, followed by the usual lapdogs or what I call the tired boys club for support. Don't let the pack mentality here fool or intimidate you my fellow realists, you've done well.Man am I tired of these lame comments. Nowhere on this website or in the terms of service does it state I must be impartial or I will be impartial.

'Nuff said.

PS. You seem to be unraveling lately...it hasn't gone unnoticed.

[WinterTriangle]

You can refer to the competition as "tomato cans" without expecting some sort of silly PC backlash.

Would it be too PC to ask that you adjust your software filter, which probably screens out words like f*** , n*g*er, and co*n, but seems to have no problem with retard or tard being used in a non-medical, discriminatory way?

I've already posted this once, but I feel it important, since I used to volunteer at a work center for developmentally disabled..... and their suggestion was to keep speaking out......... so I am. :)
1) in a non-medical setting, using this word in any social context in a discriminatory way is a severe epithat and an inappropriate adjective when used to demean------- because it simultaneously suggests that people with Autism, Down's Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy, Special Needs and cognitive or intellectual disabilities are "less"----- less than we are, and therefore we have created a special word for them. And therefore we must saddle them, and anyone possesing any hint of these traits, with some kind of insulting demeaning slang term for not possessing the same intelligence or abiities.

2) In talking to children and adults with disabilities their most deeply felt, negative and hurtful memory is the experience of being called a "tard". As a noun, it is pejorative.

3) The Special Olympics and over 100 other organizations are striving to eliminate the use of the "r-word" (like the n-word) in everyday conversation. Perhaps those of you who use the word as an adjective, and not a verb, should walk a day in the shoes of people who have to live with a disability and see what it's like to be made fun of, and called a "tard". :(
Special Olympics fights use of the word:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29981699/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29981699/)

I feel it would be an *upgrade* to this community to do likewise, and add retard and tard to your software filter. ( you'd be very moved if I got one of the clients to come on here and explain, in their simple heart-felt way, how they grew up listening to this word, and how much it hurts to hear it USED as slang in every day conversation.)

The English language is diverse and interesting, there are surely words that can be used instead?

I feel that by eliminating words that have been used to demean a group of people (who don't deserve to be demeaned), that we are enhancing our world, and the communities we engage in.


Just a suggestion.:)

[PaceAdvantage]

[size=2]Would it be too PC to ask that you adjust your software filter, which probably screens out words like f*** , n*g*er, and co*n, but seems to have no problem with retard or tard being used in a non-medical, discriminatory way?Took me a while to figure out what the hell co*n was...

My filter is not sophisticated enough to know how the word retard is being used. What about people simply using it as a verb as in "to delay" or "to make slow?"

I promise, from this point on, to personally edit the posts of anyone who uses "retard" or "tard" as a pejorative. And if I miss one, please don't hesitate to point it out to me...

[joanied]

Winter T...Good for you:ThmbUp: ...someone needed to say what you did about using certain words...I have a nephew that is Autistic, so I know how much it hurts...the old saying about sticks & stones is all wrong...because just one word can & does hurt....

PA....thank you for your reply post to Winter T...and I hope everyone that has been slinging these types of verbal abuses will now stop and think of the harm they can do...

[Kimsus]

PS. You seem to be unraveling lately...it hasn't gone unnoticed.

I'm actually having quite the ball on here, look at it this way, if I wasn't around you'd have the same boring agreeing exchanges you did before I came along. :sleeping:

[Cardus]

Took me a while to figure out what the hell co*n was...

My filter is not sophisticated enough to know how the word retard is being used. What about people simply using it as a verb as in "to delay" or "to make slow?"

I promise, from this point on, to personally edit the posts of anyone who uses "retard" or "tard" as a pejorative. And if I miss one, please don't hesitate to point it out to me...

I thought it was "coin."

The other partial words were "fish" and "nagger," right?

[Cardus]

Would it be too PC to ask that you adjust your software filter, which probably screens out words like f*** , n*g*er, and co*n, but seems to have no problem with retard or tard being used in a non-medical, discriminatory way?

I've already posted this once, but I feel it important, since I used to volunteer at a work center for developmentally disabled..... and their suggestion was to keep speaking out......... so I am. :)
1) in a non-medical setting, using this word in any social context in a discriminatory way is a severe epithat and an inappropriate adjective when used to demean------- because it simultaneously suggests that people with Autism, Down's Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy, Special Needs and cognitive or intellectual disabilities are "less"----- less than we are, and therefore we have created a special word for them. And therefore we must saddle them, and anyone possesing any hint of these traits, with some kind of insulting demeaning slang term for not possessing the same intelligence or abiities.

2) In talking to children and adults with disabilities their most deeply felt, negative and hurtful memory is the experience of being called a "tard". As a noun, it is pejorative.

3) The Special Olympics and over 100 other organizations are striving to eliminate the use of the "r-word" (like the n-word) in everyday conversation. Perhaps those of you who use the word as an adjective, and not a verb, should walk a day in the shoes of people who have to live with a disability and see what it's like to be made fun of, and called a "tard". :(
Special Olympics fights use of the word:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29981699/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29981699/)

I feel it would be an *upgrade* to this community to do likewise, and add retard and tard to your software filter. ( you'd be very moved if I got one of the clients to come on here and explain, in their simple heart-felt way, how they grew up listening to this word, and how much it hurts to hear it USED as slang in every day conversation.)

The English language is diverse and interesting, there are surely words that can be used instead?

I feel that by eliminating words that have been used to demean a group of people (who don't deserve to be demeaned), that we are enhancing our world, and the communities we engage in.


Just a suggestion.:)




Thanks for the morality and English language lessons.

In this context -- talking about Zenyatta's supporters -- this post above is a load of garbage.

No one who has used the term "Zenyattatard" or "Zenyatard" has used it to denigrate people with the syndromes and afflictions you mentioned above. Using a word in a figurative sense does not make those using it demeaning or insensitive to a particular group.

If another term had been used here recently to which you objected that might have described a condition of a group of people with a different affliction, disease, or syndrome, then I'd wager that somehow you were a volunteer for that group, too.

[Cardus]

Is the word "dastardly" banned, too?

[Greyfox]

No one who has used the term "Zenyattatard" or "Zenyatard" has used it to denigrate people with the syndromes and afflictions you mentioned above. .

What is the purpose in employing that term then??
Is it not associating Zenyatta fans with a term that has been considered derogatory for quite a few years now?

Zenyatta + the negative term = a derogatory neologism.

[Cardus]

What is the purpose in employing that term then??
Is it not associating Zenyatta fans with a term that has been considered derogatory for quite a few years now?

Zenyatta + the negative term = a derogatory neologism.

You're right: unreasonable Zenyatta fans are being compared to people with Autism.

Those who have used the term are morally depraved.

You cannot possibly believe this.

[Cardus]

What is the purpose in employing that term then??
Is it not associating Zenyatta fans with a term that has been considered derogatory for quite a few years now?

Zenyatta + the negative term = a derogatory neologism.

My take: to describe the unreasonableness and idiocy of some opinions about Zenyatta.

[WinterTriangle]

Thanks for the morality and English language lessons.

-- this post above is a load of garbage.

No one who has used the term "Zenyattatard" or "Zenyatard" has used it to denigrate people with the syndromes and afflictions you mentioned above.

Cardus, you miss the point. I don't know how else to explain it. It's a word that should not be used at all, in any form, as an insult, because it IS a word that has ONLY been used to denigrate people with syndromes and afflictions..

I think you are missing the subtlety of this.

That's okay. I just wish I could help you see it.

When you use "tard" or "retard" as a noun, as an insult, you are taking a word that has been used to denigrate those with cognitive disabilities ---- when such a word shouldn't exist or even be used IN THE FIRST PLACE---- and then, by using it, you are accepting that there is "something wrong" with having these afflictions, that they deserve a special derogatory word to describe them.

I'm just gonna hope that somebody else can explain it to you, I'm not getting thru. Once it "clicks" for you, maybe you will see what I mean.


In the larger society, you may have noticed that people don't go around calling each other tard or retard........it has fallen out of favor in the general population,

..........and I know of NO PARENT who allows or encourages their children to speak in such a manner--------THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT. ;)

I will let you reflect on why.

As a verb, it is a perfectly usable word. As a noun or adjective, it is not.

[Greyfox]

.

Those who have used the term are morally depraved.

You cannot possibly believe this.

For reasons that WT has stated, the term is in poor taste.
I never indicated that those who used the term were "morally depraved.":rolleyes:
Use of that term "tard" or "tardate" to label any individual or group is derogatory. It simply shows the ignorance of the user of associated sensitive issues. In that way it tells us a lot more about the speaker than the people that it's intended to slam.
It also shows a lack of creativity in creating a neologism that might be more acceptable. eg. Zenyattalites or Zenyagroupies or....

[classhandicapper]

A few general comments.

I think the probability that Zenyatta is even close to 100% right now is close to 0%.

They didn't crank her up until the end of the year last year (you could even see it in the workouts) and I feel fairly certain that will be the plan this year unless after handling her brilliantly for 3 years they suddenly get a case of the stupids. So she is always going to be slightly vulnerable over her next few races if they underestimate the competition or if someone fires a huge race.

That has more or less been the case with Rachel also. They don't have her cranked up 100% now because they are slowly gearing up for the big races in the fall. The difference is that "she did" run into a couple of sharp horses that beat her. I think she will improve further because if something was actually wrong with her, they would have stopped on her after these first two starts.

I'm a fan of Life is Sweet. While she is clearly a couple of notches below Zenyatta, IMO she's a legitimate Grade 1 filly that on occasion benefited from a brutal pace (like in the Ladies Classic) and at other times finished behind weaker horses when the pace was brutally slow (though Zenyatta overcame it). She's another horses that IMO is not 100% yet, but I have no idea what the plans are for her. I didn't read anything.

[cj]

Life is Sweet has been retired I believe.

[Cardus]

Cardus, you miss the point. I don't know how else to explain it. It's a word that should not be used at all, in any form, as an insult, because it IS a word that has ONLY been used to denigrate people with syndromes and afflictions..

I think you are missing the subtlety of this.

That's okay. I just wish I could help you see it.

When you use "tard" or "retard" as a noun, as an insult, you are taking a word that has been used to denigrate those with cognitive disabilities ---- when such a word shouldn't exist or even be used IN THE FIRST PLACE---- and then, by using it, you are accepting that there is "something wrong" with having these afflictions, that they deserve a special derogatory word to describe them.

I'm just gonna hope that somebody else can explain it to you, I'm not getting thru. Once it "clicks" for you, maybe you will see what I mean.


In the larger society, you may have noticed that people don't go around calling each other tard or retard........it has fallen out of favor in the general population,

..........and I know of NO PARENT who allows or encourages their children to speak in such a manner--------THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT. ;)

I will let you reflect on why.

As a verb, it is a perfectly usable word. As a noun or adjective, it is not.

Smug.

[joanied]

Life is Sweet has been retired I believe.

Correct, cj. Problems with tying up, I beleive. If memory serves me...she's been bred to Smart Strike!!

[joanied]

ya know....this thing about using words such as 'retard', 'tard' ect. to make a point about certain fans of certain horses...is really quite simple...most people are offended by using such terms, some don't seem to have enough sensitivity and/or respect to avoid using these terms...but, you would think that once it is pointed out to them, they would refrain from using them any longer...rather than arguing the point...it boils down to being sensitive to others, whether you agree with it or not, seems to me, just knowing it's offensive to others would make someone want to do the right thing, and find another word to express themselves. Simple.

[Cardus]

ya know....this thing about using words such as 'retard', 'tard' ect. to make a point about certain fans of certain horses...is really quite simple...most people are offended by using such terms, some don't seem to have enough sensitivity and/or respect to avoid using these terms...but, you would think that once it is pointed out to them, they would refrain from using them any longer...rather than arguing the point...it boils down to being sensitive to others, whether you agree with it or not, seems to me, just knowing it's offensive to others would make someone want to do the right thing, and find another word to express themselves. Simple.

"Most people are offended by using such terms?" I don't read every post of every thread, but I noticed one complaint to PA about it. One. Were there others before one poster concurred about this drastic "neologism" earlier today? I think that "most people" saw it for what it was.

Was the word "retard" used? Again, if it were used, please point me in that direction. I've seen "Zenyattard" and "Zenyattatard" used, which as I illustrated before, was used to poke fun at what some think were unreasonable ideas.

The "sensitivity to others" argument is fine, but it does have a "slippery slope" consequence. If one someone is "offended" by a word's usage, it must be banned? Where does that PC police mentality end? Generally speaking, "sensitivity" has devolved into "hypersensitivity", especially in matters that are not really important in the grand scheme of things.

And this matter was not worthy of the sky-high soap box position that was assumed by Winter Triangle.

As Grits says, "EOC."

[Dahoss9698]

I get offended by the constant stream of misinformation that seems to emanate from certain posters.

[Hedevar]

"Most people are offended by using such terms?" I don't read every post of every thread, but I noticed one complaint to PA about it. One. Were there others before one poster concurred about this drastic "neologism" earlier today? I think that "most people" saw it for what it was.

Was the word "retard" used? Again, if it were used, please point me in that direction. I've seen "Zenyattard" and "Zenyattatard" used, which as I illustrated before, was used to poke fun at what some think were unreasonable ideas.

The "sensitivity to others" argument is fine, but it does have a "slippery slope" consequence. If one someone is "offended" by a word's usage, it must be banned? Where does that PC police mentality end? Generally speaking, "sensitivity" has devolved into "hypersensitivity", especially in matters that are not really important in the grand scheme of things.

And this matter was not worthy of the sky-high soap box position that was assumed by Winter Triangle.

As Grits says, "EOC."

I have used both the terms Zenyattard and Zenyattatard in my posts. As far as I know I have never seen the word retard used. If words that contain "tard" are banned we are setting foot on a slippery slope. Bastardize and custard are just two words, off the top off my head, that may be banned. On this issue I side with Cardus 100%.

[cj]

I have used both the terms Zenyattard and Zenyattatard in my posts. As far as I know I have never seen the word retard used. If words that contain "tard" are banned we are setting foot on a slippery slope. Bastardize and custard are just two words, off the top off my head, that may be banned. On this issue I side with Cardus 100%.

Shame on you. From now on, I think we should go with something more appropriate. Zenyatturds has a nice ring to it, don't you think?

[thaskalos]

I get offended by the constant stream of misinformation that seems to emanate from certain posters. So do we...but we forgive you...

[thaskalos]

Just kidding Dahoss...I'm not looking for more arguments...

[Dahoss9698]

So do we...but we forgive you...

That was actually funny. You should have owned it.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm actually having quite the ball on here, look at it this way, if I wasn't around you'd have the same boring agreeing exchanges you did before I came along. :sleeping:Yeah, that will be the day...boring and agreeing...

[WinterTriangle]

And this matter was not worthy

Cardus, I disagree. I believe that discussion sometimes transforms how people think about an issue, and it that it WAS worthy of bringing up.

I’ve been in households were name-calling is a way of life, and realize it is difficult to transform a behavior that someone is accustomed to or comfortable with. So, I won't try. I am certainly not stopping you from continuing that behavior here, or anywhere else you go.

OTOH, there are others who read this, find it worthy of mention, and are appreciative that somebody took the time to say it. When the special olympics and over 100 other organizations urge people to stop using a certain word, there might be some merit in bringing it to people's attention...... so I did.

The risk that an idea will not be well-received by some is the risk we take with any post here, isn't it. The (long) list of what offends different posters here is endless. I merely added mine.:)

[Greyfox]

Well said WT and Joanied. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:
In general, I am not in favour of censorship. When people say things that are offensive it usually tells me more about them than they might know that they are revealing.
In this instance, the two of you made strong points that influenced my agreeing with you. You are also right that discussion does lead, however slowly, to attitudinal change.
So Zenyattaturds, Zenyattalites, Zenyattazillies, or whatever I'll just laugh at.
They do not to my knowledge impact any paired associate group.

[Dahoss9698]

Keep fighting the good fight. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Gorgeous George]

Just jealousy from the 'Dead Arm Gang'

[classhandicapper]

I'm not offended by anyone that calls me a "Zenyattard", "Zenyattatard" etc...

It actually encourages me because it makes me realize that many supposedly high level handicappers still lack the sophistication required to understand why she kept winning throughout 2009 despite slow figures and narrow winning margins and then finished her campaign with a peak in the Classic where they thought she had little or no chance. :lol:

We all lose it from time to time due to our strong opinions and frustration trying to convince others (myself included). I am against censorship, but I think it would be a good idea to encourage respectful behavior. I think that will lead to a higher level of conversation than name calling.

[joanied]

Well said WT and Joanied. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:
In general, I am not in favour of censorship. When people say things that are offensive it usually tells me more about them than they might know that they are revealing.
In this instance, the two of you made strong points that influenced my agreeing with you. You are also right that discussion does lead, however slowly, to attitudinal change.
So Zenyattaturds, Zenyattalites, Zenyattazillies, or whatever I'll just laugh at.
They do not to my knowledge impact any paired associate group.

Thank you, Greyfox, cj and anyone else that realizes where Winter T and myself are coming from. Actually Grits had posted about this sometime ago...so Winter T wasn't the first...and after reading her original post, I thought she was right, I thought that isn't asking too much, so posted my feeling on the subject in support of Winter T.
I am not a person that beleives in 'politcal correctness', and I do beleive that in many ways, this form of 'censorship' has gone too far...but, in some cases, especially in using a term such as retard and any form of such, is to many, hurtful. So, I don't think it's asking too much to refrain from using it...cj's new word, Zenyattaturds is brilliant!!

I do beleive in 'to each his own'...so speaking for myself, I'm not at all trying to tell anyone what to do...just suggesting some small form of sensitivity to others as a whole is a good thing.

[letswastemoney]

I do not like Zenyatta.

But maybe they aren't going far enough to market her.

Why isn't there a Zenyatta video game? If they could put Ghostzapper on the cover of a Playstation 2 game, surely they could make "Zenyatta BC World Championship 2010"

And everytime you choose to race as Zenyatta and she wins, she could do the little dance she does.

[BluegrassProf]

But maybe they aren't going far enough to market her.
...
surely they could make "Zenyatta BC World Championship 2010"...And everytime you choose to race as Zenyatta and she wins, she could do the little dance she does.

First I was all, "say whaaa?" Then I was all, "hellz yeah!"

Gooooooo Sooper Z!!! ZZZOOOOOM!!!

:ThmbUp:

[FenceBored]

Speaking of marketing, what about the obvious marketing faux pas.


When Zenyatta's return was announced we were promised Bachman Turner Overdrive:

cFRk0FfaQi0


What we've really seen so far is the Four Tops:

juqtcsHlKzs

[cj]

I will say this about the Zenyatta debate. The people that still have questions about her are very likely, as a group, better horseplayers than those that already accept her as some super horse. That should stir things up a bit, but I honestly believe it.

[Kimsus]

I don't believe in 'Superhorses' so I guess that rules me out.

[Cardus]

I will say this about the Zenyatta debate. The people that still have questions about her are very likely, as a group, better horseplayers than those that already accept her as some super horse. That should stir things up a bit, but I honestly believe it.

Sharp post.

[gm10]

I will say this about the Zenyatta debate. The people that still have questions about her are very likely, as a group, better horseplayers than those that already accept her as some super horse. That should stir things up a bit, but I honestly believe it.

What about those who have questions about Rachel Alexandra? Or are they just asking the wrong questions ;-).

[FenceBored]

I don't believe in 'Superhorses' so I guess that rules me out.

Rules you out from actually being a real horseracing fan, you mean. Even TIME magazine believes in super horses.

http://secretariatcom.stores.yahoo.net/timeposter.html

[classhandicapper]

I will say this about the Zenyatta debate. The people that still have questions about her are very likely, as a group, better horseplayers than those that already accept her as some super horse. That should stir things up a bit, but I honestly believe it.

I think "some" of those that appreciate her greatness have a massively better understanding of how to measure ability than those that have been criticizing her because they understand some of the limitations of conventional figures to capture all aspects of ability. I think the evidence of that is pretty clear based on the fact that the latter group has been wrong about her for two years straight. And I honestly believe that. ;)

The only remaining question I have is whether she is equally great on dirt and turf, but I consider that irrelevant to whether she is great.

[horses4courses]

According to Donald Harris, Zenyatta's work yesterday (5-24) was better.
He wrote:

Zenyatta took a step forward in her pattern leading up to the Vanity. The drill was different in a couple ways. This was the most forward I have seen her in a team drill. Broke a couple back but was on the neck of stable-mate El Vino before the turn. In the vast majority of the drills that I have seen she will actually fall further behind on the turn before reeling in her prey. Today she seemed more focused and was in attack mode early. The most important part of this drill was the stretch. As she cruised clear of El Vino I was expecting her to start losing interest. But she did not lose interest. She remained focused on her task and kept putting space between herself and El Vino. Her gallop out was by far the best of this series. Positive progression for the champ.


She seems to be doing just fine...... :ThmbUp:

[cj]

What about those who have questions about Rachel Alexandra? Or are they just asking the wrong questions ;-).

I have questions about Rachel as well.

[cj]

The only remaining question I have is whether she is equally great on dirt and turf, but I consider that irrelevant to whether she is great.

I might agree, except that the surface she is "great" on isn't used for top class racing anywhere else in the world except Dubai, and never has been in the past either. Therefore, I'll withhold judgment. Her dirt races have only shown me she is a pretty good horse, nothing more.

If the NFL started a second league that played on deep, dry sand and a team went undefeated for two years running, and also beat the sorry Raiders a couple times on real dirt in cross over matches, I wouldn't consider them great.

[classhandicapper]

I might agree, except that the surface she is "great" on isn't used for top class racing anywhere else in the world except Dubai, and never has been in the past either. Therefore, I'll withhold judgment. Her dirt races have only shown me she is a pretty good horse, nothing more.

If the NFL started a second league that played on deep, dry sand and a team went undefeated for two years running, and also beat the sorry Raiders a couple times on real dirt in cross over matches, I wouldn't consider them great.

If the horses that were competing on synthetic were an entirely different breed or population of horses and never crossed back and forth between synthetic, turf, and dirt I would agree with you.

But they are the same breed, they do cross back and forth, and many have shown an equal affinity for multiple surfaces. So IMO it's very possible to evaluate the quality of those races.

If I had to, I think I could actually make a better case that CA racing in general is SUPERIOR to eastern based racing and not the other way around (even though both are declining).

I certainly agree that Zenyatta is not proven on dirt yet

[Kimsus]

Rules you out from actually being a real horseracing fan, you mean. Even TIME magazine believes in super horses.

http://secretariatcom.stores.yahoo.net/timeposter.html

I don't like the term, to me it denotes you cannot be beaten, invincible...Anyone who has followed the game long enough knows any horse no matter how good or great they are can be beaten given the right scenario.

[Deepsix]

Catchy little phrases like 'Manistique the Superfreak'

[Deepsix]

Speaking of Manistique here is a replay and take note of the short field on the dirt track. Some folks seem to forget that its been a problem well before synthetics. <wink>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eOD80Vs8wk

[thaskalos]

I will say this about the Zenyatta debate. The people that still have questions about her are very likely, as a group, better horseplayers than those that already accept her as some super horse. That should stir things up a bit, but I honestly believe it. You seem to be a resourceful, analytical guy...arrange a handicapping contest to prove it...

[Kimsus]

You seem to be an analytical guy...arrange a handicapping contest to prove it...

That made me laugh, I'm not particpating unless there are cash prizes involved. Why do work so others can see for free?

[thaskalos]

That made me laugh, I'm not particpating unless there are cash prizes involved. Why do work so others can see for free? Let's put our money where our mouth is...

[Kimsus]

Let's put our money where our mouth is...

No prizes, no participation.

[FenceBored]

I don't like the term, to me it denotes you cannot be beaten, invincible...Anyone who has followed the game long enough knows any horse no matter how good or great they are can be beaten given the right scenario.

Glad to see you're coming around.

[Grits]

"Most people are offended by using such terms?" I don't read every post of every thread, but I noticed one complaint to PA about it. One. Were there others before one poster concurred about this drastic "neologism" earlier today? I think that "most people" saw it for what it was.

In answer to your question, yes, Cardus, this has come up before here at PA. At the time, I was the one who spoke up. Winter didn't say anything, she may not have been here at the time. Too, I didn't know until late this afternoon that Winter had worked with retarded/special needs adults.

Twice, here at PA, I have spoken up to those who have used the term retard, or laughed and found funny--comments made about Special Olympians. We talked, then we moved on. It was over.

One can be pretty sure all knew exactly how the addition of, "tards" was being used. The context, etc.

Was the word "retard" used? Again, if it were used, please point me in that direction. I've seen "Zenyattard" and "Zenyattatard" used, which as I illustrated before, was used to poke fun at what some think were unreasonable ideas.

The key words here being "to poke fun at what some think were unreasonable ideas."

Cardus, if I can explain. This is the general view of some who are unfamiliar with those who are retarded, retards, tards, retardates. They believe these individuals lack the ability to form any reasonable ideas. And some who are termed severe/profoundly retarded do lack such skills. I would ask you to look up the terms--retard, retarded, and idiocy. Being familiar with each.

Also, today, don't underestimate the number of parents that are not teaching their children, their elementary age, their teenagers that to call one "retard" is unkind. It is wrong and does one's child a disservice as they grow up saying the same before their own children.

The "sensitivity to others" argument is fine, but it does have a "slippery slope" consequence. If one someone is "offended" by a word's usage, it must be banned? Where does that PC police mentality end? Generally speaking, "sensitivity" has devolved into "hypersensitivity", especially in matters that are not really important in the grand scheme of things.

And this matter was not worthy of the sky-high soap box position that was assumed by Winter Triangle.

As Grits says, "EOC."

But, it was. Because how we speak of or treat each other, regardless of our achievements or our limitations IS important in the scheme of things. Grand or not?

I have been away for several days, out of town since last Wednesday. I had seen the word/name, Zenyattatards, before I left. I knew I was leaving for several days, and after reading Winter's post about it, I thought it would give pause to anyone insisting upon its use. I thank Winter for posting. Its not easy to buck others. To add to her post, yes, it is harmful, and it is derogatory as much so as any other slur that could come from anyone's mouth whether speaking too quickly, too harshly, attempting to be cute, or worse, in a heated moment, just being hateful.

This is a word that many people realize was out of place, was unkind, and harmful several decades before the two words, "politically correct" were ever even thought of being conjoined. And this is so, primarily, because no one but no one chooses to be born, or to become, during one's lifetime--retarded.

Unfortunately, even for the well seasoned parent and advocate of the special needs child or adult, (the retard/tard,) the more knowledgable, the more learned like myself--the sadness, the quick stab of hurt that this word inflicts does not go away while the years subjected to its continued use grow in number. The blessing, though, is my beautiful son and I rose above it, and those that insist upon its use--a very, very, long time ago.

Thank you, Winter, for your post, and for your volunteering.

And Cardus, my work, when it comes to helping others to understand that, yes, sometimes our choices can be hurtful, and that all people have value has been going on for 33 years now. And it will continue always.

For now, though, this particular one's over, so EOC is good.;)

Let's go back to Zenyatta.

For any who view my post as unnecessary or smug, I apologize in advance.

[Greyfox]

This is a word that many people realize was out of place, was unkind, and harmful several decades before the two words, "politically correct" were ever even thought of being conjoined. And this is so, primarily, because no one but no one chooses to be born, or to become, during one's lifetime--retarded.

Thank you, Winter, for your post, and for your volunteering.


For now, though, this particular one's over, so EOC is good.;)

Let's go back to Zenyatta.

For any who view my post as unnecessary or smug, I apologize in advance.


Forgive me for abstracting comments from your post. They were very
well stated. You've verbalized what I wished I had the abililty to state.:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:
In agreement, "Let's go back to Zenyatta."

[thaskalos]

In answer to your question, yes, Cardus, this has come up before here at PA. At the time, I was the one who spoke up. Winter didn't say anything, she may not have been here at the time. Too, I didn't know until late this afternoon that Winter had worked with retarded/special needs adults.

Twice, here at PA, I have spoken up to those who have used the term retard, or laughed and found funny--comments made about Special Olympians. We talked, then we moved on. It was over.

One can be pretty sure all knew exactly how the addition of, "tards" was being used. The context, etc.



The key words here being "to poke fun at what some think were unreasonable ideas."

Cardus, if I can explain. This is the general view of some who are unfamiliar with those who are retarded, retards, tards, retardates. They believe these individuals lack the ability to form any reasonable ideas. And some who are termed severe/profoundly retarded do lack such skills. I would ask you to look up the terms--retard, retarded, and idiocy. Being familiar with each.

Also, today, don't underestimate the number of parents that are not teaching their children, their elementary age, their teenagers that to call one "retard" is unkind. It is wrong and does one's child a disservice as they grow up saying the same before their own children.



But, it was. Because how we speak of or treat each other, regardless of our achievements or our limitations IS important in the scheme of things. Grand or not?

I have been away for several days, out of town since last Wednesday. I had seen the word/name, Zenyattatards, before I left. I knew I was leaving for several days, and after reading Winter's post about it, I thought it would give pause to anyone insisting upon its use. I thank Winter for posting. Its not easy to buck others. To add to her post, yes, it is harmful, and it is derogatory as much so as any other slur that could come from anyone's mouth whether speaking too quickly, too harshly, attempting to be cute, or worse, in a heated moment, just being hateful.

This is a word that many people realize was out of place, was unkind, and harmful several decades before the two words, "politically correct" were ever even thought of being conjoined. And this is so, primarily, because no one but no one chooses to be born, or to become, during one's lifetime--retarded.

Unfortunately, even for the well seasoned parent and advocate of the special needs child or adult, (the retard/tard,) the more knowledgable, the more learned like myself--the sadness, the quick stab of hurt that this word inflicts does not go away while the years subjected to its continued use grow in number. The blessing, though, is my beautiful son and I rose above it, and those that insist upon its use--a very, very, long time ago.

Thank you, Winter, for your post, and for your volunteering.

And Cardus, my work, when it comes to helping others to understand that, yes, sometimes our choices can be hurtful, and that all people have value has been going on for 33 years now. And it will continue always.

For now, though, this particular one's over, so EOC is good.;)

Let's go back to Zenyatta.

For any who view my post as unnecessary or smug, I apologize in advance.I don't want to appear insensitive, and I applaud the efforts of everyone who endeavors to make a positive difference in the lives of those who find themselves in any sort of serious disadvantage...whether mental, physical or otherwise...but in this case, I think we are being a little oversensitive.

Perhaps it is unfortunate, but the word "retard" has several meanings and is often used with different things in mind. Yes...one meaning implies a mental disability, but it can also mean foolish, stupid or in some way...unsophisticated. There is also a mechanical use for the word retard, which means to delay or to slow down.

Forgive the lesson in grammar - I was an English major - but my point is that in almost all cases, words are not the problem...our motive when using them is.

[Grits]

Thank you for posting, Thaskalos, but we don't agree about my being overly sensitive. I understand quite well the various definitions of the words I posted, and too, the varying contexts in which they're presented. A significant, but different use of retard would be--let's say, retardant, as in fire retardant or flame retardant fabrics in children's sleepwear. This too, would mean to slow. To impede the movement or spreading of fire.

Not that its of value here, but I've spoken at conferences for healthcare professionals, for physicians, nurses and others in the field of mental health and mental retardation. I've also sat on state committees. As I said, this has been an important part of my life for a very long time. It has also played a great role in how I've made my living. While not having an English major, my contributions have made a significant impact if what has come back to me over the years has been an indicator.

Now at EOC. No more from myself, I've had enough.

[Greyfox]

Forgive the lesson in grammar - I was an English major .

You may have been an English major but it is clear that you did not read the earlier postings about the use of "retard" as a noun or a verb.
Your post is redundant.