Horse Racing vs. State Parks in New York! The hits keep coming!

[andymays]

http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/2010/May/20/track_bail_Skart-20May10.html

Excerpt:

“The fact that he’s willing to spend $17 million for a few weeks of horse racing in two communities while working families are denied access to some of New York’s most treasured attractions is absolutely outrageous,” he said. “I think the choice between horseracing and shutting down 41 state parks and approximately 14 historic parks across New York, it’s clear, but obviously the governor has it all wrong.”

[andymays]

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/19/the-morning-line-busy-days-off-the-track/

Excerpt:

The Paterson announcement did little to quell the kvechathon in the Saratogian. An editorial complained that while the legislators “‘review proposals,’” trainers whose horses should be running in Saratoga are taking them to out-of-state tracks, and visitors are holding off on their reservations.” One article noted that Gary Contessa will be sending 12 horses to Monmouth, and columnist Mike Veitch frets that “we are stuck with a situation that is going to repeat itself now that these three tracks are in state hands.”

[andymays]

Despite Lifeline, Saratogians Still in Deep Water

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/on-the-line/05202010-despite-lifeline-saratogians-still-in-deep-water/

Excerpt:

Maybe Mr. Shafran should have said something like: “This isn’t supposed to be about taxpayer money; it’s really about a $17-million advance on the $300-million up-front money to be paid by the VLT franchise awardee.”

Or, he might have asked rhetorically: “Aren’t we [state government] in default on an agreement that was supposed to fund NYRA’s operation starting in April of 2009 if the VLTs weren’t on line?

“Wasn’t that part of the franchise deal in which we got title to three racetrack properties valued at about $2-billion?” So don’t we owe them $30 million?”

“And another thing: We’re responsible for New York City Off Track Betting now, right? Does that mean we’re on the hook for their $17 million, too? And we‘ve stopped giving them a piece of the handle action, right?”

[andymays]

http://www.equidaily.com/

>>> AUDIO: DRF's Hegarty on Tuesday's At the Races...

"Since that press conference has happened I did talk with a couple of people that are involved in those negotiations and they said not to read too much into the governor's comments because there is not any deal nor is there any legislation nor is there any structure to how that loan will take place." [end of Hour 1]

http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/index.php?option=com_events&task=view_detail&agid=754&year=2010&month=05&day=18&Itemid=35

[Robert Goren]

Anybody who thinks that the giving of $17 million of state money is going to fly in NY state. The only people for this is the horse people. The NY politicians maybe crooked, one of them is even is even blind, but they aren't stupid. Any one who is not denouncing this at the top of their voice will face someone who is in november. That is way it is. If NYRA spent half as much energy trying to fix its problems as it does trying to wrangle money from the state, it would not be in this mess. JMO

[andymays]

Audit: New York OTBs should pay less to racing

http://www.drf.com/news/article/113105.html

Excerpt:

New York's five regional off-track betting corporations must be allowed to cut their payments to the racing industry in order to remain solvent, the state's comptroller, Thomas P. DiNapoli, said in an audit of the corporations released on Thursday.

The audit, which examined the financial performance of the Capital, Catskill, Nassau, Suffolk, and Western off-track betting companies over the past five years, cited declining handle over the past two years and the corporations' statutory obligations to the racing industry as the principal reasons that the financial viability of the companies "has substantially deteriorated." DiNapoli called on the state legislature to amend the state's racing law in his recommendations.

"If OTBs are going to remain viable, New York will have to take action to bring back the bettors and fix OTB," DiNapoli said. "The current business model just doesn't work."

[Tom]

The money should be taken directly for OTB period. They have legally stolen it and the BOD should all be arrested and charged with grand larceny.

Eyes are not the thing this idiot-governor lacks.

[PaceAdvantage]

If NYRA spent half as much energy trying to fix its problems as it does trying to wrangle money from the state, it would not be in this mess. JMOif the state wasn't so incompetent when it comes to all things racing (witness what they did to Braulio Baeza and Mario Sclafani during that infamous "jockey-weight-gate"), NYRA wouldn't be in as bad as shape as it finds itself today.

The state is to blame for most all of the NYRA's troubles at this juncture. From the obsolete and totally unworkable atmosphere under which they are forced to operate, to the OTB situation, to the VLTs, to the rather over-the-top Federal indictments years ago that we can see, today, were nothing more than politically and financially motivated and designed solely to ELIMINATE the NYRA as a VLT competitor (where's your Joe Bruno now, see?).

It's a giant cluster f**k at this point, but I get a kick out of those who continue to place much of the blame on the NYRA itself.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

PA,

I have a question I can't find an honest answer for anywhere it seems.

If Tioga Downs can lower takeout on their on accord to state minimums with no objection or oversight......why can't NYRA lower their takeout......and if they can't, why not and who is in charge of it or in charge of NYRA?

Everybody seems to blame everyone else. Kinda like someone is dead and the 10 people standing around the body are all pointing at everybody else but themselves.

[PaceAdvantage]

If Tioga Downs can lower takeout on their on accord to state minimums with no objection or oversight......They can't. And they didn't. No track can simply decide to lower takeout on their own without approval from the NYSRWB (NY State Racing & Wagering Board).

The rest of your question would best be answered by someone at the NYRA. State minimums are 15% WPS, 17% Exacta/Doubles and 21% for all others (if I am reading it right).

NYRA currently sits at 16% WPS, 18.5% Exactas/Doubles, 16% Pick 6 (non-carryover) which kind of goes against that 21% minimum for all others that I quoted above, and 26% for Pick3, Pick4, Tri, Super, and Pick 6 carryover days.

Perhaps the NYRA feels their request for takeout reduction would be denied given the current financial climate hovering over not only the NYRA, but also NY State itself.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

They can't. And they didn't. No track can simply decide to lower takeout on their own without approval from the NYSRWB (NY State Racing & Wagering Board).

Sorry...I should have said that by their own accord they initiated the takeout reduction and they had no objection whatsoever from NYSRWB.

So basically it was their decision and NYSRWB would never have an objection as long as it was at state minimums.

[PaceAdvantage]

So basically it was their decision and NYSRWB would never have an objection as long as it was at state minimums.This isn't necessarily true. In fact, I'm willing to bet that given the huge handle disparity between the two entities (Tioga and NYRA), the NYSRWB wouldn't be too keen to lower the NYRA takeout at this time, given the financial difficulties faced by both the state and NYRA.

Although WE know a lower takeout usually means more in the end for everyone involved, this kind of thing still won't fly when presented to people who can't or won't understand this concept...and will only see such a move as preposterous given what is happening out there (NYRA running out of the money & NY State running out of money).

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Perhaps the NYRA feels their request for takeout reduction would be denied given the current financial climate hovering over not only the NYRA, but also NY State itself.

NYRA says they can't.

NYSRWB says they can if they ask.

State says they have no control over it as long as it fits the minimum.

The reason I ask this is that it has been told to me by someone that knows all about this and the process says that if NYRA wanted to do the same thing Tioga did and use it to promote Saratoga so they can compete with Monmouth, Del Mar, etc. it wouldn't be a problem as long as NYRA asked for it.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

This isn't necessarily true. In fact, I'm willing to bet that given the huge handle disparity between the two entities (Tioga and NYRA), the NYSRWB wouldn't be too keen to lower the NYRA takeout at this time, given the financial difficulties faced by both the state and NYRA.

Although WE know a lower takeout usually means more in the end for everyone involved, this kind of thing still won't fly when presented to people who can't or won't understand this concept...and will only see such a move as preposterous given what is happening out there (NYRA running out of the money & NY State running out of money).

As I stated in the post above, from what I was told.....NYSRWB would approve it if was brought before them by NYRA.

[andymays]

This is all the same misery from California and New York.

Nobody loves racing out here more than me but after years of this bullshit maybe it's time to let Monmouth show what its got and put the rest of the disfunctional jurisdictions on notice.

I hope Monmouth kicks ass and everyone else wakes up.

In the meantime.......Go Monmouth!

[Dahoss9698]

Anybody who thinks that the giving of $17 million of state money is going to fly in NY state. The only people for this is the horse people. The NY politicians maybe crooked, one of them is even is even blind, but they aren't stupid. Any one who is not denouncing this at the top of their voice will face someone who is in november. That is way it is. If NYRA spent half as much energy trying to fix its problems as it does trying to wrangle money from the state, it would not be in this mess. JMO

Do you really think NYRA isn't trying to fix it's problems? The money they are trying to "wrangle" is money OWED to them.

It's funny how anything and everything NYRA related always has a unfavorable slant.

[andymays]

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/horse_racing/through_the_binocs_mZp4KYrsmlliEOAIrUsF8H

Excerpt:

If you oppose Albany loaning the New York Racing Association $17M to keep it operating until (if ever) the VLT casino is up and running at Aqueduct, consider this:

NYRA and the state's six OTB corporations -- which would go belly up without NYRA's races to bet on -- make direct tax payments to the state of $39,932,169 per annum, more than $10M of that from NYRA. Local municipalities receive $30,259,085 a year from the OTB's and NYRA, with another $16M+ going to the thoroughbred and harness breeding funds that support thousands of acres of farmland.


Read more:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/horse_racing/through_the_binocs_mZp4KYrsmlliEOAIrUsF8H#ixzz0oWJ 5x9eJ

[slewis]

Do you really think NYRA isn't trying to fix it's problems? The money they are trying to "wrangle" is money OWED to them.

It's funny how anything and everything NYRA related always has a unfavorable slant.

Owed to them? Really? How's about the 10's maybe hundreds of millions of dollars in property taxes NYRA was in arrars? Where's the money due the taxpayers?

What about NYRA using ten's of millions of dollars of money that was supposed to pay property taxes OR go towards cap improvements OR get reverted BACK to the state of NY FOR LEGAL FEES to get the franchise fee back?

NYRA was NOT a private company... where the funds used for legal fee's would come out of owners or shareholders pockets. THEY USED WHAT WAS IN ESSENCE TAXPAYER MONEY for this escapade, and then threatened the people of the state if they didn't get their way.

So now tell me Dahoss..... NYRA has this money owed... the state has taken over NYC OTB... therefore, as Gary Pretlow (genius politician) states "in essence, the state owes NYRA! Right? WRONG.

I would love for NYRA to take the state to court over this...and try to enforce the foolishly worded and promised backing the state included in the franchise agreement. When the state's attorney's show the judge the fiscal situation NY is in we'll see how he rules.

But you know what Dahoss... it wont happen.. NYRA knows better this time.


I've said this before..as difficult as it is to deal with these idiots in Albany..NYRA better go VERY out of their way to work with the state because their is NO money for $80,000 MDSPWT races.

[Dahoss9698]

Owed to them? Really? How's about the 10's maybe hundreds of millions of dollars in property taxes NYRA was in arrars? Where's the money due the taxpayers?

What about NYRA using ten's of millions of dollars of money that was supposed to pay property taxes OR go towards cap improvements OR get reverted BACK to the state of NY FOR LEGAL FEES to get the franchise fee back?

NYRA was NOT a private company... where the funds used for legal fee's would come out of owners or shareholders pockets. THEY USED WHAT WAS IN ESSENCE TAXPAYER MONEY for this escapade, and then threatened the people of the state if they didn't get their way.

So now tell me Dahoss..... NYRA has this money owed... the state has taken over NYC OTB... therefore, as Gary Pretlow (genius politician) states "in essence, the state owes NYRA! Right? WRONG.

I would love for NYRA to take the state to court over this...and try to enforce the foolishly worded and promised backing the state included in the franchise agreement. When the state's attorney's show the judge the fiscal situation NY is in we'll see how he rules.

But you know what Dahoss... it wont happen.. NYRA knows better this time.


I've said this before..as difficult as it is to deal with these idiots in Albany..NYRA better go VERY out of their way to work with the state because their is NO money for $80,000 MDSPWT races.

So NYCOTB doesn't owe NYRA $15 million which is now close to $17 million? Are you disputing this?

[Rutgers]

PA,

I have a question I can't find an honest answer for anywhere it seems.

If Tioga Downs can lower takeout on their on accord to state minimums with no objection or oversight......why can't NYRA lower their takeout......and if they can't, why not and who is in charge of it or in charge of NYRA?

Everybody seems to blame everyone else. Kinda like someone is dead and the 10 people standing around the body are all pointing at everybody else but themselves.

I know your questions was not directed to me, but I would like to reply.

First, in NY harness tracks (Tioga) and thoroughbred tracks (NYRA) have different minimum/maximum takeout rates established by New York State law.

Any change in the takeout rates must be approved by the NYSRWB, but the rates requested must be within the range prescribed by the law.

NYRA takeout rates are at the minimum already. Thoroughbred tracks takeout ranges are 16-17% for regular(WPS), 18.5-21% for multiple (exactas/DD), 26% for exotics (P3,P4,tri,super), 16-36% for super exotics(Pick 6) and 26-36% for super-exotics w/ a carryover pool.

This takeout rates went in effect September 14, 2008 and with expire September 15, 2010. You may recall this rates where put in place to help out NYCOTB at the time of the state takeover.

For those of you who like to keep score at home, it is the Racing, Pari-Mutuel and Breeding Law. Article Two Section 238 for the T-breds. And Article 3 Section 318 for the Harness. (WBTW shows the minimum for harness racing to be 14% for regular bets, 16% for multiple, and 20% for the exotics, which is lower then the Tioga takeouts by 1%. The 1% takeout increase for the NYCOTB may be elsewhere in the statutes, since I don’t play the harness races I didn’t look for it)

[PaceAdvantage]

I know your questions was not directed to me, but I would like to reply.

First, in NY harness tracks (Tioga) and thoroughbred tracks (NYRA) have different minimum/maximum takeout rates established by New York State law.

Any change in the takeout rates must be approved by the NYSRWB, but the rates requested must be within the range prescribed by the law.

NYRA takeout rates are at the minimum already. Thoroughbred tracks takeout ranges are 16-17% for regular(WPS), 18.5-21% for multiple (exactas/DD), 26% for exotics (P3,P4,tri,super), 16-36% for super exotics(Pick 6) and 26-36% for super-exotics w/ a carryover pool.

This takeout rates went in effect September 14, 2008 and with expire September 15, 2010. You may recall this rates where put in place to help out NYCOTB at the time of the state takeover.

For those of you who like to keep score at home, it is the Racing, Pari-Mutuel and Breeding Law. Article Two Section 238 for the T-breds. And Article 3 Section 318 for the Harness. (WBTW shows the minimum for harness racing to be 14% for regular bets, 16% for multiple, and 20% for the exotics, which is lower then the Tioga takeouts by 1%. The 1% takeout increase for the NYCOTB may be elsewhere in the statutes, since I don’t play the harness races I didn’t look for it)Thank you for setting this straight.

[slewis]

So NYCOTB doesn't owe NYRA $15 million which is now close to $17 million? Are you disputing this?

No, you obviously dont understand my point. NYRA crying about the money it's owed is like the bratty kid who cries to his recently unemployed and broke parents that he hates them cause they cant pay for sleep away camp this summer.. get it?

All the promises and contracts in the world will fall useless if they tried to go to court and FORCE their (states) hand. They need to try and work with the state and kiss up. Any threats, etc in this economic climate would be ultra foolish.:bang:

[Robert Goren]

You can agree or disagree all you want about who owes who what, but the reality is that there is no way that NYRA is going to get any money from the state. Any politician who supports that idea will get the boot in November and it is an election year in NY state. As for the VLTs, I really doubt that is going to happen anytime soon either. As Adrian Monk used to say "I could be wrong now, but I don't think so." NYRA needs to start doing the things that it has the power to do to get itself out this mess is it is in because big brother is not going to bail you out this time. It is not matter of whether they should, but a matter of whether they will. JMO

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I know your questions was not directed to me, but I would like to reply.

First, in NY harness tracks (Tioga) and thoroughbred tracks (NYRA) have different minimum/maximum takeout rates established by New York State law.

Any change in the takeout rates must be approved by the NYSRWB, but the rates requested must be within the range prescribed by the law.

NYRA takeout rates are at the minimum already. Thoroughbred tracks takeout ranges are 16-17% for regular(WPS), 18.5-21% for multiple (exactas/DD), 26% for exotics (P3,P4,tri,super), 16-36% for super exotics(Pick 6) and 26-36% for super-exotics w/ a carryover pool.

This takeout rates went in effect September 14, 2008 and with expire September 15, 2010. You may recall this rates where put in place to help out NYCOTB at the time of the state takeover.

For those of you who like to keep score at home, it is the Racing, Pari-Mutuel and Breeding Law. Article Two Section 238 for the T-breds. And Article 3 Section 318 for the Harness. (WBTW shows the minimum for harness racing to be 14% for regular bets, 16% for multiple, and 20% for the exotics, which is lower then the Tioga takeouts by 1%. The 1% takeout increase for the NYCOTB may be elsewhere in the statutes, since I don’t play the harness races I didn’t look for it)

Thank you for answering.

That basically answers my question because NYSRWB stated to at least 2 parties that as long as the takeout reduction requested is at the minimum level.....any track in the state would be automatically approved.

[Dahoss9698]

No, you obviously dont understand my point. NYRA crying about the money it's owed is like the bratty kid who cries to his recently unemployed and broke parents that he hates them cause they cant pay for sleep away camp this summer.. get it?

All the promises and contracts in the world will fall useless if they tried to go to court and FORCE their (states) hand. They need to try and work with the state and kiss up. Any threats, etc in this economic climate would be ultra foolish.:bang:

I understood your point. Your post had little to do with what I was talking about because I'm merely talking about the 17 million.

I understand you are closer to this situation than I am. But you're also not exactly unbiased when it comes to NYRA. That isn't a shot, a simple perusal of your posts points this out.

NYRA has made a lot of mistakes. But they have been hampered by the VLT nightmare, which is exactly what it is right now. Something has to give and I don't think you or I want to see no racing in NY.

I jumped in, because there are people a lot more clueless about the situation than myself just throwing crap against the wall and hoping some sticks.

[PaceAdvantage]

You can agree or disagree all you want about who owes who what, but the reality is that there is no way that NYRA is going to get any money from the state. Any politician who supports that idea will get the boot in November and it is an election year in NY state. As for the VLTs, I really doubt that is going to happen anytime soon either. As Adrian Monk used to say "I could be wrong now, but I don't think so." NYRA needs to start doing the things that it has the power to do to get itself out this mess is it is in because big brother is not going to bail you out this time. It is not matter of whether they should, but a matter of whether they will. JMOI believe you are wrong. Why?

a) despite what slewis says, NYRA can make a strong case for money due

b) LOTS of potential voters either work in the industry or know someone who does, and any sort of adversity that would lead to large numbers of people losing their jobs will not sit well come November either

c) the sum of money we are talking here isn't massive in the grand scheme

d) NY State isn't quite in California land yet, so it's not likely that the lending/granting/whateveryouwanttocallit of this money would lead to any great public scandal

[rastajenk]

I don't know about your point b. The same could be said about the folks here in Ohio, yet racing concerns registered nary a blip on the radar during the casino vote here last fall. Racing as a hot-button voting item just doesn't exist.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't know about your point b. The same could be said about the folks here in Ohio, yet racing concerns registered nary a blip on the radar during the casino vote here last fall. Racing as a hot-button voting item just doesn't exist.Not talking racing...talking people losing their jobs...en masse...