Breeders' Cup....does US racing need it?

[horses4courses]

Does US racing need the Breeders' Cup?

Any thoughts?

[Audioslavery]

No, I prefer my sports not to have championships.

[Stillriledup]

No, I prefer my sports not to have championships.

Racing is not a sport in the 'championship' kind of way. All sports with championships have organized leagues with commissioners, rules, laws and they run a tight ship, racing on the other hand, is a free for all, no one cares, its just one big money grab.

[WinterTriangle]

For some, it's the TB version of the playoffs.

For me, it's a "showcase" where I get to see all the stars from places I don't get to visit.

Hope we keep it!

but I'm sure the owners/trainers of the world will have no problem shipping to another place like Japan or Dubai for big purses and big races, and someone will call it the "world championships". Wherever they hold it, people will be sending their wagering dollars there, as bettors like big fields with big pools.

[letswastemoney]

It ruins year round racing and causes great horses to skip races they should be in!!! That's my problem with it!!!

You would see these horses match up against each other much, much more often if the BC didn't exist.

[Fager Fan]

For some, it's the TB version of the playoffs.

For me, it's a "showcase" where I get to see all the stars from places I don't get to visit.

Hope we keep it!

but I'm sure the owners/trainers of the world will have no problem shipping to another place like Japan or Dubai for big purses and big races, and someone will call it the "world championships". Wherever they hold it, people will be sending their wagering dollars there, as bettors like big fields with big pools.


You think? I guess that explains why we send dozens of runners, including ALL the top horses we have, to Dubai each March?

[Bobzilla]

I was tempted to chose the last option but I guess I'm not quite at the point where I think it should cease to exist. My feelings are ambivalent.

I think the original intent of the event, as conceived by John Gaines, was never universally understood. John Nerud was interviewed by Steve Byk some time back and the former shared his feelings on the subject:

http://colinsghost.org/category/steve-byk

Different readers can take what Nerud said in the interview with Byk and draw their own conclusions on whether or not the mission is the same or if it's been excessively expanded beyond the original intent.

I think when the BC started to market itself as a World Championship event the direction began to change. In fact I don't think the Breeders' Cup was originally intended to be any kind of Championship, American or World; it was simply supposed to be a day of great racing which would serve to attract the attention needed to keep racing in the collective conscience. That the event was scheduled to be 6 months out from the Kentucky Derby is no surprise.

I think too much emphasis is placed on the Breeders' Cup these days and the results are considered by some to be of more importance than they should be when determining year end honors. In a close division with no standouts I can understand the BC result being the deciding factor. Unfortunately the growing trend of thinking of the BC as the be-all end-all, especially on the part of the media that covers racing, is taking a toll on the other 363 days of the horse racing calendar and is diminishing the importance of other historically important races and race series.

Certainly the BC still sees part of its mission as attracting attention to the sport, but its approach as of late is definitely more ambitious than before with increasing emphasis on growing the company, the brand name, and its overall importance in the racing world. Some of the decisions made to affect this course have turned off many traditionalists and purists, many of whom having been loyal BC supporters since the beginning.

[Grits]

Bobzilla, thanks for posting the link, making fine points--all of which have been echoed by others within the industry, trainers included. All have complained that the event has had drastic effect on stakes races. It seems, as others have noted:

run as softly as one can; then run a hole in the wind one day in the Fall when the real money and the label "champion" is earned.

The BC has moved far from what John Gaines envisioned. And most realize this. As much as this man lived and breathed horseracing one can be sure it wasn't his plan to level the stakes programs throughout the country the other 364 days of the year.

Now, everything has changed, the BC wanted to "grow its brand." But, at what cost? No, this is not at all what Mr.Gaines wanted.

Bobzilla, Joanie, CJ and others have made good points, they're buried in another thread about Zenyatta. Zenyatta and the Dodgers. Adding them here, they may be more widely viewed. Though, possibly not, as folks all gravitate to Zenyatta discussion more than they do Breeders' Cup, the Triple Crown races or anything else. Something unfortunate and something hard to understand.

Originally Posted by cj
I think that is what is so disappointing. Two of the races have already been valleys. It is not too bright of fans to applaud a top horse pointing to one race as the goal when it is 9 months away. That really ruins the sport and what it is supposed to be about.

It was race the best against the best and see who has the best horse. Now it is race against the easiest fields you can find and discuss which horse might be best in print.

Originally posted by Joanied
I just posted about the BC in another thread...and I agree with you, cj. The BC changed everything...horses being pointed for it race less & less, they ship here & there to find the easiest spot possible...yeah, connections want to win...but at what expense...leaving race fans with an empty feeling because we rarely get to see the best horses race each other during the year ... we have wait for the BC...don't 'they' realize that folks will come out to the track on a Saturday in larger numbers if there is something exciting to see...like a stakes race that actually has several of the best horses facing off...not one or two of the best racing against allowance type horses...racing is about competition...and at the top end, we are constantly being short changed. And no one is going to fault a top horse getting beat by other top horses...when we had horses like Dr. Fager & Damascus, did anyone say one was less great because he was beaten by the other...nope!
__________________

[Tom]

We no longer need it, and we need a hell of lot less Gr1 and Gr2 stakes.
Make a rule - no grading unless you have a field of at least 7.

What we could use is the old ACRS (?) stakes circuit- remember that one,
and now include dirt, turf, and poly in the series.

[Greyfox]

I luv it. It's one of the best betting days of the year. A great day for racing bringing back old fans and creating new ones. :jump: :jump: :jump:

[Steve R]

Regardless of whatever entertainment value the BC series of races might have, the original funding mechanism is a reasonable indication of the real intent - to transfer wealth from the low end breeders to the high end breeders. It is not an accident that the vast majority of graded races, including the BC races, are won by the offspring of leading sires from the more prominent breeding operations. Just scan the names of the sires of BC race winners and it is clear that the $1000 or $2000 stallions have little opportunity. An off-bred will win enough to sustain hope, but only in the same sense as the rare 50-1 shot winning the Derby. In fact, the BC has done nothing to enhance Thoroughbred breeding over the last quarter century. And as others have noted, the BC has threatened the viability of many traditional, historic races. Racing did very well in the years before the BC and it will survive if it's gone. Without so many horses pointing for a single race that is too late in the year anyway, the absence of the BC as a target should actually enhance competition throughout the season.

[Cardus]

Racing is not a sport in the 'championship' kind of way. All sports with championships have organized leagues with commissioners, rules, laws and they run a tight ship, racing on the other hand, is a free for all, no one cares, its just one big money grab.

Also, teams have to play their entire regular season schedule in order to qualify for the playoffs, which led to the league championship. (I realize that some teams sit regulars during the latter part of their schedules to rest for the playoffs.)

Obviously, this is hardly the case in Thoroughbred racing.

To restate something I posted earlier in the week, I'd like to see one year with a Breeders' Cup. A host of people would not know what to do.

[Bruddah]

Regardless of whatever entertainment value the BC series of races might have, the original funding mechanism is a reasonable indication of the real intent - to transfer wealth from the low end breeders to the high end breeders. It is not an accident that the vast majority of graded races, including the BC races, are won by the offspring of leading sires from the more prominent breeding operations. Just scan the names of the sires of BC race winners and it is clear that the $1000 or $2000 stallions have little opportunity. An off-bred will win enough to sustain hope, but only in the same sense as the rare 50-1 shot winning the Derby. In fact, the BC has done nothing to enhance Thoroughbred breeding over the last quarter century. And as others have noted, the BC has threatened the viability of many traditional, historic races. Racing did very well in the years before the BC and it will survive if it's gone. Without so many horses pointing for a single race that is too late in the year anyway, the absence of the BC as a target should actually enhance competition throughout the season.

This post tells it like it really is in the Thorughbred Industry and deserves a huge AMEN BRUDDAH! It's definitely in the running for the Bruddah of the year post.

[LottaKash]

Regardless of whatever entertainment value the BC series of races might have, the original funding mechanism is a reasonable indication of the real intent - to transfer wealth from the low end breeders to the high end breeders. It is not an accident that the vast majority of graded races, including the BC races, are won by the offspring of leading sires from the more prominent breeding operations. Just scan the names of the sires of BC race winners and it is clear that the $1000 or $2000 stallions have little opportunity. An off-bred will win enough to sustain hope, but only in the same sense as the rare 50-1 shot winning the Derby. In fact, the BC has done nothing to enhance Thoroughbred breeding over the last quarter century. And as others have noted, the BC has threatened the viability of many traditional, historic races. Racing did very well in the years before the BC and it will survive if it's gone. Without so many horses pointing for a single race that is too late in the year anyway, the absence of the BC as a target should actually enhance competition throughout the season.

Steve, I never thought of the BC in quite the way that you have stated it....Food for thought, very....:ThmbUp:

best,

[eastie]

move it to saratoga and have it a couple of weeks earlier....simple

[DeanT]

Say what we want about the BC and the changes it has made to people and horse's schedules, but itself is a sound idea which has grown, imo.

If you look at the worldwide handle and hub dollars that the BC brings it is pretty remarkable. That adds some value and helps support purses and helps promote North American racing to the world. Money was sent on the card through hubs in India, Singapore, Australia and many more countries. The BC Classic matched about $3M on betfair, which ranks it only behind the Derby for NA racing.

If the BC is scrapped, sure the JCGC and other races have better fields. But the handle and eyeballs from across the globe are not even paying attention. Last years JCGC on betfair matched about $25,000, no one is waking up in India to partake in watching that race.

I know the reaction sometimes is "who cares", but those "who cares people" spend money and that money flows back into NA. As well, about 19 million people watched at least some of the Breeders Cup cards on TV, although those who stay and watch are much lower. Regardless, that is 19 million eyeballs to promote racing to. You can not get 19M people to tune into set races at set tracks if the BC was canned. As well there is a buzz in any city that hosts the BC, with local news and radio covering racing, whom would never cover racing before.

The general public and media, which the BC is a showcase for in part, would not care or cover a race if the field for some grade one race in September has four contenders instead of three, and a field size of 10 instead of 8, if the BC is eliminated. We would be losing a fabulous conduit to promote our sport both here and around the world, to some people who never get to see it.

[Fager Fan]

Say what we want about the BC and the changes it has made to people and horse's schedules, but itself is a sound idea which has grown, imo.

If you look at the worldwide handle and hub dollars that the BC brings it is pretty remarkable. That adds some value and helps support purses and helps promote North American racing to the world. Money was sent on the card through hubs in India, Singapore, Australia and many more countries. The BC Classic matched about $3M on betfair, which ranks it only behind the Derby for NA racing.

If the BC is scrapped, sure the JCGC and other races have better fields. But the handle and eyeballs from across the globe are not even paying attention. Last years JCGC on betfair matched about $25,000, no one is waking up in India to partake in watching that race.

I know the reaction sometimes is "who cares", but those "who cares people" spend money and that money flows back into NA. As well, about 19 million people watched at least some of the Breeders Cup cards on TV, although those who stay and watch are much lower. Regardless, that is 19 million eyeballs to promote racing to. You can not get 19M people to tune into set races at set tracks if the BC was canned. As well there is a buzz in any city that hosts the BC, with local news and radio covering racing, whom would never cover racing before.

The general public and media, which the BC is a showcase for in part, would not care or cover a race if the field for some grade one race in September has four contenders instead of three, and a field size of 10 instead of 8, if the BC is eliminated. We would be losing a fabulous conduit to promote our sport both here and around the world, to some people who never get to see it.

Dean, I've no quarrel with anything you say. I'd point out, though, that the BC need not scrap all the dirt races as they're intent on scrapping, nor do they need to hold it at a permanent location, to be successful at all you mention above.

If anything, taking out America's best horses only hurts the sport. The BC was literally saved by Zenyatta winning the Classic, becasue otherwise it was one yawner of a day that was supposed to showcase championship racing. Everyone forgets, though, that the Classic should've been better than it was, it should've had Rachel and Zenyatta in it (or against each other in the Distaff), and it's the fault of the BC that we didn't see that matchup and now may never see it. Two of the best sprinters in the world were also missing in Fabulous Strike and Kodiak Kowboy. And the Classic didn't properly showcase our best 3yo colt (or most accomplished) when he had to run over a surface that wasn't his best. We were also robbed of seeing if one of the best turf horses we've had in years in Gio Ponti could beat the best from Europe on the turf.

The BC needs to go back to what they were. What they are now isn't nearly as attractive. But damn if they won't keep trying to make ugly acceptable.

[DeanT]

I dont disagree Fager. JMO, but I think their want with SA is the venue (they have the infrastructure and can do it more cheaply there), weather, and time zone (they want the BC to end later all the time , and in the east it is getting dark at that time). Now I think Dubai throws a wrench into it. Dubai is now synth and if you want to race in a synth festival, go there. That will work for them and good for them, but we dont need two synth festivals.

As for the European argument of filling up fields on synth, I have never liked seeing their champs come over and try the classic on dirt or synth. If they are best on turf, race them there. That's what wanting to see the best is about, imo.

[Fager Fan]

I dont disagree Fager. JMO, but I think their want with SA is the venue (they have the infrastructure and can do it more cheaply there), weather, and time zone (they want the BC to end later all the time , and in the east it is getting dark at that time). Now I think Dubai throws a wrench into it. Dubai is now synth and if you want to race in a synth festival, go there. That will work for them and good for them, but we dont need two synth festivals.

As for the European argument of filling up fields on synth, I have never liked seeing their champs come over and try the classic on dirt or synth. If they are best on turf, race them there. That's what wanting to see the best is about, imo.

They should forget Dubai. First, they can't compete with the Sheikh and shouldn't try. More importantly, they got the jump on him and have it at the right time on the racing calendar. The only thing more disastrous than our last 2 years on synth and the irrelevant results it created was this year's DWC on synth, creating even more irrelevant results.

Though I may be giving the BC more credit in the brainpower department than they deserve given their decisions over the past few years, can they really be so stupid as to not know that most of our reservations have to do with the surface? And if they know that, and they want to go with dirt, then by God, make sure Stronach puts down dirt and then announce that the BC will be run on dirt, THEN try to sell us on going to CA permanently. That they're not doing that can lead me to conclude that it's the synth they're after.

[joanied]

They should forget Dubai. First, they can't compete with the Sheikh and shouldn't try. More importantly, they got the jump on him and have it at the right time on the racing calendar. The only thing more disastrous than our last 2 years on synth and the irrelevant results it created was this year's DWC on synth, creating even more irrelevant results.

Though I may be giving the BC more credit in the brainpower department than they deserve given their decisions over the past few years, can they really be so stupid as to not know that most of our reservations have to do with the surface? And if they know that, and they want to go with dirt, then by God, make sure Stronach puts down dirt and then announce that the BC will be run on dirt, THEN try to sell us on going to CA permanently. That they're not doing that can lead me to conclude that it's the synth they're after.

:ThmbUp: That is the bottom line...the surface...and no surprise to anyone...'they' are doing this ass-backwards...

and speaking of the DWC...this is what I thought about it on the fake stuff::sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:

[ghostyapper]

Everyone forgets, though, that the Classic should've been better than it was, it should've had Rachel and Zenyatta in it.

If you want to blame the BC for making the classic 10 furlongs fine but know that that is the real reason that the princess was NEVER under consideration for it.

[FenceBored]

If you want to blame the BC for making the classic 10 furlongs fine but know that that is the real reason that the princess was NEVER under consideration for it.

Don't stop believin, hold on to that fee-e-e-elin'.

[letswastemoney]

If you want to blame the BC for making the classic 10 furlongs fine but know that that is the real reason that the princess was NEVER under consideration for it.
She was never under consideration for it because it was on Pro-ride, and Rachel is a dirt horse w/ speed, which Pro-ride spits out.

[ghostyapper]

She was never under consideration for it because it was on Pro-ride, and Rachel is a dirt horse w/ speed, which Pro-ride spits out.

Turf also spits out speed but Presious Passion still dances. The truth is the classic was a 10 furlong race and rachel was/is a 9 furlong horse.

[andtheyreoff]

If you want to blame the BC for making the classic 10 furlongs fine but know that that is the real reason that the princess was NEVER under consideration for it.


In this ever changing world, it's comforting to know there are still some certainties. :rolleyes:

[Buckeye]

right. It ain't the Breeders' Cups's fault. In fact the Breeders Cup attempted and largely succeeded in its attempt. Purple is one of my favorite colors. :)

[nijinski]

One day would be fine , in different tracks.

I would suggest do away with the Juvenile races , maybe we will have a chance for a TC winner .
Winning tht race has been the kiss of death for some fine youngsters.;
Other than Street Sense these Juvey champions cannot win the Derby and many
defect before hand.
The rest is pretty exciting , but would be better if not soley in California.
I do welcome and enjoy tha European entrants , but becasuse of the timing
we cannot seem to get horses like Zarkava or STS.

[thespaah]

Does US racing need the Breeders' Cup?

Any thoughts?no..For 125 years T-Bred racing did just fine.
The BC was always on my calendar as a must watch or attend.
Lately, BC Ltd has become more of a show than of a Thoroughbred championship.
The first screw up was the meteroic increase in seat prices. I wanted to go ot the BC at Lone Star because i have a friend that lives in Fort Worth and could have saved a ton by having a place to stay. But the price of the seats was much more than I was willing to spend so I passed.
The second screwup was expanding the event to two days and adding more races.
The latest screwup was BC hanging it's hat on Artificial tracks and Santa Anita. As if there were no other racetrack worthy of the event.

BC could be a great event if the people at BC Ltd would stop the nonsense.
Moving the BC up to the end of September would open up additonal markets which can experience awful weather in late Oct/Early Nov.

Yes this will interfere with some rather prestigious and well establised fall stakes races, but in order for BC to call itself a real world championship the event has ot be contested at different venues across the country. Something has to give.

[castaway01]

I think it's a lot of fun and a great betting day...or days now I guess. It's not perfect but can you name any other new events in racing in the last 30 years that have been overwhelming successes and draw huge handle?

[PaceAdvantage]

If you want to blame the BC for making the classic 10 furlongs fine but know that that is the real reason that the princess was NEVER under consideration for it.Don't you ever get tired of this?

[cj]

Turf also spits out speed but Presious Passion still dances. The truth is the classic was a 10 furlong race and rachel was/is a 9 furlong horse.

I agree, she certainly would have collapsed in the final furlong of the Kentucky Oaks and the Mother Goose if another furlong were required.

[PaceAdvantage]

I agree, she certainly would have collapsed in the final furlong of the Kentucky Oaks and the Mother Goose if another furlong were required.How about the Haskell....no doubt Summer Bird would have caught her with that extra 1/8th added....he was just getting going at the end of the....oh wait...never mind...no he wasn't....

[ghostyapper]

Posture all you want the fact is her connections avoided longer races like the plague after they saw her stagger home in the preakness.

[PaceAdvantage]

Posture all you want the fact is her connections avoided longer races like the plague after they saw her stagger home in the preakness.She must stagger like Zenyatta must run fast....

What I saw at the end of the Preakness was a serious racehorse on a serious gallop out...