Don't expect Zenyatta to challenge Rail Trip.

[andymays]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/112840.html

Excerpt:

Shirreffs was asked if there was any chance Zenyatta would run in the Hollywood Gold Cup against males. Shirreffs responded, "No. We're not looking to climb the highest mountain possible. She's proven herself now."

[andymays]

For the record.

You gotta luv Zenyatta. Nobody can do that dance like her. :ThmbUp:

You gotta luv the connections. Escpecially their stance on synthetic surfaces. That's right they hate em. ;) :ThmbUp:


But the connections are getting a little too cute on this one. :ThmbDown:


We all want to see her get to a 115 or a 120 beyer before she retires. :eek:

Everyone wants to put this subject to rest. ;)

Just do it. :ThmbUp:

[Ejmenz]

I have to disagree. It's great she can beat the best, but I think it's unfair to make her face colts throughout the year.

Dominate all year long and test the best in the classic, Rachel might make that dance, that would be special.

I don't think Z adds to her rep by winning the Gold Cup, another classic combined with an undefeated career would be amazing regardless of her numbers.

We've seen her trounce Gio Ponti, Twice Over, and Ginger Punch, you can't do that unless you can run as fast as necessary.

[Dahoss9698]

I have to disagree. It's great she can beat the best, but I think it's unfair to make her face colts throughout the year.

Dominate all year long and test the best in the classic, Rachel might make that dance, that would be special.

I don't think Z adds to her rep by winning the Gold Cup, another classic combined with an undefeated career would be amazing regardless of her numbers.

We've seen her trounce Gio Ponti, Twice Over, and Ginger Punch, you can't do that unless you can run as fast as necessary.

Unfair to face colts throughout the year? How about more than once?

It's actually unfair to treat the Breeders Cup as the end all be all. It's unfair to the other 11 months of racing during the year. At this point, if Team Zenyatta is going to insist on "protecting" her, the only fair thing would be for Super Saver to win the triple crown. Then she could win the Classic and still come in 2nd in HOY voting....again.

[letswastemoney]

I have to disagree. It's great she can beat the best, but I think it's unfair to make her face colts throughout the year.

Dominate all year long and test the best in the classic, Rachel might make that dance, that would be special.

I don't think Z adds to her rep by winning the Gold Cup, another classic combined with an undefeated career would be amazing regardless of her numbers.

We've seen her trounce Gio Ponti, Twice Over, and Ginger Punch, you can't do that unless you can run as fast as necessary.
Yet Quality Road is going to be facing open company while Zenyatta hides in her little enclave.

Horses aren't perfect throughout the year. Even if she did win the Classic, the ones who keep their form against the best company throughout the whole year deserve HOTY.

I'm almost certain Quality Road will win it now.

[Kimsus]

Yet Quality Road is going to be facing open company while Zenyatta hides in her little enclave.

Horses aren't perfect throughout the year. Even if she did win the Classic, the ones who keep their form against the best company throughout the whole year deserve HOTY.

I'm almost certain Quality Road will win it now.

How long do you think Todd's special brew will last? The testers are sure to develop tests that detect an "edge" that he will be searching for a new edge soon.

[Ejmenz]

LOL, I'm not saying she is better then QR or SS holy xxxx you guys are touchy, why can't she face females, how is that hiding? Did you all enjoy how the three hard races took out RA, they are not machines.....QR may very well be better then Zenyatta, I'd like to think we can appreciate both for what they are, spectacularly great athletes.

I admire the heck out of RA for her campaign, I doubt another female could have done that, maybe ever, but that doesn't mean I want to see Zenyatta go through it.

[andymays]

The bottom line is that if you want people to give you a sniff as the best ever then don't go sissy on us.


Run agains the best or



BULLSHIT!

This only gets worse as it goes.


Just do it!

[Ejmenz]

That seems silly, how in the world can ANYONE consider Zenyatta the best horse ever. She's beaten the best horses in the world ONCE, she can't do it on a regular basis, shes a FEMALE.

Secretariat, Slew, Bid, Forego, they ran against the best start in and start out, she obviously is not anywhere near any of them or could she ever accomplish enough in the remainder of her career to reach their levels of excellence.

But she is the greatest female ever, lets just enjoy that, she can't sniff the best males ever.....but my guess is one day they will her.

[Hedevar]

Nor is she is the greatest female ever.

[Wickel]

The bottom line is that if you want people to give you a sniff as the best ever then don't go sissy on us.


Run agains the best or



BULLSHIT!

This only gets worse as it goes.


Just do it!


Z not only ran against the best in this country, she beat--soundly I might add--the best in the world. She didn't pad her campaign by running against four-horse fields and second-level competition--YES, like Rachel in '09. Mine That Bird hasn't won a race since the Derby, Macho Again, I don't think, has even been back to the track since the Woodward, a race where he was half the horse he had been the year before. Perusing Rachel's work vs. the fillies, there was no Careless Jewel, no Life is Sweet, not even Justwhistledixie or Stardom Bound. She beat absolutely nothing!! I'd venture to say that by the time the Hollywood Gold Cup rolls around, Rachel will be 0-for-3 in 2010. Like I said in another thread, where's Dandy Don when we need him: Turn out the lights, Rachel, the party's is over.

[Ejmenz]

right hedevar, it was that other female who was undefeated and beat the best males in the country, who was that again?

[Ejmenz]

A little sanity folks, RA and Zenyatta are FANTASTIC.

RA had the hardest campaign ever, she'll be back if not by the end of the year then by the 1st of 2011, I bet Mr Jackson gives her the time, he understands where she is at.....and she lost two close races to very nice horses that were gunning for her......

and Zenyatta is the best female ever, you can admit that, or you can drink from that long river.

[andymays]

A little sanity folks, RA and Zenyatta are FANTASTIC.

RA had the hardest campaign ever, she'll be back if not by the end of the year then by the 1st of 2011, I bet Mr Jackson gives her the time, he understands where she is at.....and she lost two close races to very nice horses that were gunning for her......

and Zenyatta is the best female ever, you can admit that, or you can drink from that long river.


Run against the best and put the speculation to rest.

The Breeders Cup was on the junk and the "field strength" people are sweating.

Bring It Baby!

Who's your Huckleberry?

QR or RT. I'm thinking QR. By the way where is that bad boy?

[cj]

right hedevar, it was that other female who was undefeated and beat the best males in the country, who was that again?

Personal Ensign.

Are you another who pretends this new, unproven surface isn't a factor?

[Hedevar]

Zenyatta is not the first mare to take on and beat males. For her to be considered the best ever she would have to be better than Ruffian, Genuine Risk, Winning Colors, Gallorette, Busher, Personal Ensign, Susans Girl, Dahlia, Regret and Tosmah who beat the best three year old males in the country in the 1964 Arlington Classic and then beat the 1965 Kentucky Derby winner in the 1966 John B. Campbell Handicap. These mares did not pick their opposition or track surfaces. It is impossible to compare horses across generations but the Zenyatta boosters insist on doing so. It gets very tiring.

[Hedevar]

If you didn't like my post here, I guess you'll hate the post at "Zenyatta and the Dodgers."

[andymays]

If you didn't like my post here, I guess you'll hate the post at "Zenyatta and the Dodgers."

It's not about you. ;)

But keep going..................

[BluegrassProf]

:D

This thread is like a Howard Stern program, but with T&A replaced by synthetics & "best evar"s.

I heart. :ThmbUp:

[Cadillakin]

Yet Quality Road is going to be facing open company while Zenyatta hides in her little enclave.

I think you forgot.. Last year in the Classic.. Zenyatta entered the gates and proved much best over a full field. Meanwhile Quality Road chickened out.. and hid in his stall... It's amazing how you can watch such an occurrence and crown the chicken champion...

Would you suggest that about a fighter who jumped out of the ring and ran out of the arena when the bell rang for the first round? That he was better than the one who remained in the ring and stood ready to fight? Are you old enough to remember Roberto Duran failing to answer the belll against Sugar Ray Leonard? He sat on his stool.. and said; "No mas." I imagine there were some loyal supporters of his that claimed he could have kicked Sugar Ray's ass.. But the fact was, he lacked the courage to do so..

Being a racehorse is not only about speed. It's also about sensibility, settling well in classic races, demonstrating courage, and expressing speed, as needed. Quality Road has a lot of speed. No doubt. But as for the other characteristics, they are not easily apparent.

Remember this, my friend.. Quality Road wasn't even the best of his year at 10 furlongs in 2009. Summer Bird bested him both times at the classic distance. And that colt can't carry Zenyatta's water bucket.. Even his trainer admitted the mare beat him on the square. "No excuses" said Tim Ice. You can pretend that Quality Road is all this and all that.. but when the time came to face the best in his crop, he got beat, not once but twice, by the same horse..

So, before you start elevating him to superstar status, you first better hope that Summer Bird or a like contender doesn't come back to the races and reveal him once again as a fast colt who can't stay a classic distance..

[cj]

A simple reply to your long winded, foolish post. Summer Bird would beat Zenyatta on dirt. The surfaces are not the same. Good night.

[Hanover1]

A simple reply to your long winded, foolish post. Summer Bird would beat Zenyatta on dirt. The surfaces are not the same. Good night.
The limb you are out on is untested........

[cj]

The limb you are out on is untested........

Of course it is opinion, but it is way more likely the surfaces would change the outcome than it is pretending they are the same and don't matter to the results.

[Bobzilla]

Of course it is opinion, but it is way more likely the surfaces would change the outcome than it is pretending they are the same and don't matter to the results.

I've been convinced of this since 11/7/09. That SB would finish 4th 3 lengths behind Zenyatta on a surface that undoubtably is not his preferred was, in my opinion, a testimony to his form last autumn if not a hint to what the results would have been if the BC had been held at Bel or CD. Though nobody will ever know for sure, my best guess is that SB would have won by open lengths if contested over a traditional dirt surface.

[Cardus]

Being an Internet Land horse racing chat room poster is not only about having a computer. It’s also about sensibility to know when analogies do not make sense, settling well in various threads, demonstrating knowledge, and expressing it with literacy, as needed. You have a lot of rubbish here. No doubt. But as for the other characteristics, they are not easily apparent.

[Hedevar]

So, before you start elevating him to superstar status, you first better hope that Summer Bird or a like contender doesn't come back to the races and reveal him once again as a fast colt who can't stay a classic distance..

How in the world can you write that a horse that won the Belmont Stakes and the Travers cannot stay a classic distance?

[Wickel]

The Zenyatta haters are exhausting their excuses to the point they are now making synthetic surfaces their crutch. How about Z's performance in the Fantasy, albeit against a Rachelesque field of fillies and mares. She rolled without breaking a sweat. Many trainers who witnessed the feat were saying she was far superior on dirt than on plastic.

[NTamm1215]

The Zenyatta haters are exhausting their excuses to the point they are now making synthetic surfaces their crutch. How about Z's performance in the Fantasy, albeit against a Rachelesque field of fillies and mares. She rolled without breaking a sweat. Many trainers who witnessed the feat were saying she was far superior on dirt than on plastic.

Are you talking about the Apple Blossom against Brownie Points?

NT

[Wickel]

Yes, the Apple Blossom. Sorry about that. And I did acknowledge is was a field to Rachel's liking.

[NTamm1215]

Yes, the Apple Blossom. Sorry about that. And I did acknowledge is was a field to Rachel's liking.

Congrats on being the first to invoke Rachel in this thread. It's AMAZING how pro-Zenyatta folks can't possibly let anything negative be said about her without invoking Rachel Alexandra.

NT

[Wickel]

Rachel Alexandra is a quality racehorse. I just don't think she can beat Zenyatta. Just one opinion. My opinion. Maybe sometimes I can get overbearing in my responses, but it ludicrous to read that Zenyatta is a synthetic horse, that Zenyatta can't beat the boys (before she did), Zenyatta can't win outside of southern Cal (before she did). Like everyone else, I followed Z and RA last year, wasn't really a major fan of neither But when I saw what Z did in the Breeders' Cup, my jaw dropped! She was beaten at the top of the lane. No way, I said. What she accomplished after that was "unbelievable," to quote Trevor Denman. It was the single greatest horse race I've every witnessed. I'd sill like to see Rachel and Zenyatta meet somewhere down the line. If it's not until the Breeders' Cup, than so be it. In the meanatime, I'm just a big fan of horse racing.

[letswastemoney]

Rachel Alexandra is a quality racehorse. I just don't think she can beat Zenyatta. Just one opinion. My opinion. Maybe sometimes I can get overbearing in my responses, but it ludicrous to read that Zenyatta is a synthetic horse, that Zenyatta can't beat the boys (before she did), Zenyatta can't win outside of southern Cal (before she did). Like everyone else, I followed Z and RA last year, wasn't really a major fan of neither But when I saw what Z did in the Breeders' Cup, my jaw dropped! She was beaten at the top of the lane. No way, I said. What she accomplished after that was "unbelievable," to quote Trevor Denman. It was the single greatest horse race I've every witnessed. I'd sill like to see Rachel and Zenyatta meet somewhere down the line. If it's not until the Breeders' Cup, than so be it. In the meanatime, I'm just a big fan of horse racing.She's beaten at the top of every lane in most races. It's her running style.

[Ejmenz]

First off when did Personal Ensign, whom I considered the best female ever until RA and Z, beat the best group of males in the world?

And you're really not a horse racing fan if you watch a mare beat a group of awesome males including Gio Ponti and laugh it off as a surface joke, you are just using racing to distribute shocking opinions.

[letswastemoney]

First off when did Personal Ensign, whom I considered the best female ever until RA and Z, beat the best group of males in the world?

And you're really not a horse racing fan if you watch a mare beat a group of awesome males including Gio Ponti and laugh it off as a surface joke, you are just using racing to distribute shocking opinions.What has Gio Ponti accomplished on synthetics?

[gm10]

I've been convinced of this since 11/7/09. That SB would finish 4th 3 lengths behind Zenyatta on a surface that undoubtably is not his preferred was, in my opinion, a testimony to his form last autumn if not a hint to what the results would have been if the BC had been held at Bel or CD. Though nobody will ever know for sure, my best guess is that SB would have won by open lengths if contested over a traditional dirt surface.

I don't agree at all. Summer Bird is a high quality grinder who will always struggle against world class horses such as Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta. He ran as good a race as he had at Oaktree, but he was facing better horses than he usually did.

[cj]

I don't agree at all. Summer Bird is a high quality grinder who will always struggle against world class horses such as Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta. He ran as good a race as he had at Oaktree, but he was facing better horses than he usually did.

The surface doesn't matter? This is so silly it almost defies logic.

[Hedevar]

First off when did Personal Ensign, whom I considered the best female ever until RA and Z, beat the best group of males in the world?

And you're really not a horse racing fan if you watch a mare beat a group of awesome males including Gio Ponti and laugh it off as a surface joke, you are just using racing to distribute shocking opinions.

I personally do not abide with racing mares against males but you act as if Zenyatta was the first to ever beat males. Gio Ponti is a turf horse plain and simple. I wrote about Tosmah above. Check out Dance Smartly a filly who won the Canadian Triple Crown or Twilight Tear who beat Devil Diver and Kentucky Derby and Preakness winner Pensive in the Pimlico Special. Just because Zenyatta is doing it today does not make her the best ever. Horse racing has a long history.

[tzipi]

What has Gio Ponti accomplished on synthetics?


Nothing. Gio Ponti is a turf horse. Shame they ran that BC on synthetics. I wanted Gio Ponti to win the Turf Classic.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Zenyatta has to race Rail Trip in the Hollywood Park Gold Cup

[ghostyapper]

What has Gio Ponti accomplished on synthetics?

His highest career beyer speed figure and 1.5 million in earnings. Yea he's terrible on synthetic

[Hedevar]

His highest career beyer speed figure and 1.5 million in earnings. Yea he's terrible on synthetic

How much of those earnings were from running second in a weak BC Classic field last year?

[ghostyapper]

If they are not going to run against males until the bc fine but then they should definitely ship her east for a race in the summer.

I'd love to see the reaction here if she were to stroll home in the Personal Ensign with the utmost of ease.

[ghostyapper]

How much of those earnings were from running second in a weak BC Classic field last year?

And how do we know it's just that he appears better on turf because he's facing weaker fields than he has on synthetic?

[Hedevar]

If they are not going to run against males until the bc fine but then they should definitely ship her east for a race in the summer.

I'd love to see the reaction here if she were to stroll home in the Personal Ensign with the utmost of ease.

Too bad the Rockies are in the way.

[the little guy]

And how do we know it's just that he appears better on turf because he's facing weaker fields than he has on synthetic?

Because some of us can actually evaluate the respective talents of race horses.


And, some can't.

[ghostyapper]

Because some of us can actually evaluate the respective talents of race horses.


And, some can't.

Oh so in other word's it's because you say so? Got it. Please explain the higher speed figure then Mr. Beyer boy

[Hedevar]

And how do we know it's just that he appears better on turf because he's facing weaker fields than he has on synthetic?

Well, he has won the Manhattan, the Frank E. Kilroe, the Man O' War and the Arlington Million. All are on the turf and all are Grade 1.

[andymays]

This is Priceless! :ThmbUp:

[ghostyapper]

Well, he has won the Manhattan, the Frank E. Kilroe, the Man O' War and the Arlington Million. All are on the turf and all are Grade 1.

Hmm so we'll discount his impressive 2nd place finish in the G1 BC classic because it was a "weak field" but in listing his turf accomplishment's we'll only state that the race he won was a G1 with no mention of the field. Typical...

[ghostyapper]

A simple reply to your long winded, foolish post. Summer Bird would beat Zenyatta on dirt. The surfaces are not the same. Good night.

If I recall correctly last year you were big on the fact that Rachel dominated Summer Bird and had nothing to prove against him. So your line of thinking goes something like this:

Summer Bird runs a 106 beyer in the haskell losing by 6 and finishes a length in front of munnings, the sprinter. Conclusion? Rachel is much better than Summer Bird

Summer Bird runs a 107 beyer in the BC losing by 3. Conclusion? Summer Bird was at a huge disadvantage with the surface and would have won the race if it were on dirt.
:eek:

[BluegrassProf]

This is Priceless! :ThmbUp:Dude. This is so turning into an improv sketch.

You and Hedevar and a handful of others are playing the staight-man bits, being approached by people that drew character cards that say "overzealous horse person."

Cah-lassic. :ThmbUp:

[Hedevar]

Hmm so we'll discount his impressive 2nd place finish in the G1 BC classic because it was a "weak field" but in listing his turf accomplishment's we'll only state that the race he won was a G1 with no mention of the field. Typical...

I can't tell you who was in those Grade 1 races on the turf. But I do know Mine That Bird had gone through an incredibly hard campaign and hadn't won since the Derby, Quality Road scratched and Gio Ponti and the Europeans were turf horses. You call that a tough field?

[ghostyapper]

I can't tell you who was in those Grade 1 races on the turf. But I do know Mine That Bird had gone through an incredibly hard campaign and hadn't won since the Derby, Quality Road scratched and Gio Ponti and the Europeans were turf horses. You call that a tough field?

....Tougher than any other field of 2009. I'll pose the same question to you that I've posed to maybe 20 other members (they've all dodged) who crap on the bc field. Name a TOUGHER field from 09 and we'll dissect it with the same level of detail everyone likes to with the bc field.

[NTamm1215]

If you really believe that Gio Ponti was a synthetic horse than you must have a hard time explaining away his rather ordinary Strub.

The 2009 BC Classic field was nowhere near as strong as the 2008 version.

NT

[ghostyapper]

If you really believe that Gio Ponti was a synthetic horse than you must have a hard time explaining away his rather ordinary Strub.


Can you explain his turf classic, hollywood derby, and bc turf juv?

[NTamm1215]

Can you explain his turf classic, hollywood derby, and bc turf juv?

Did you watch any of those races?

I'm guessing not, because if you watched the Hol Derby or BC Juvy Turf then you'd have no reason to question him based on his trips in both of those.

I've never believed that the Turf Classic result was an indictment of Gio Ponti whatsoever.

NT

[Spalding No!]

Can you explain his turf classic, hollywood derby, and bc turf juv?

Yielding turf and blocked stretch run?

[ghostyapper]

I've never believed that the Turf Classic result was an indictment of Gio Ponti whatsoever.



And why is that? Because it hurts your argument? It's funny how everyone wants to bring up him losing the strub by 2 lengths as proof he's so terrible on synthetic. Of course they want to ignore all his turf loses. Convenient

If everyone would take off the blinders and stop looking desperately for ways to discredit the bc field they'll see that Gio Ponti runs very similar over both surfaces.

[NTamm1215]

Yielding turf and blocked stretch run?

It is funny though that someone would bring up three losses in a span of two years to try and make a statement about a horse who won four GI races in one calendar year. It would have just been easier to admit that Gio Ponti was not running on his preferred surface.

NT

[Hedevar]

....Tougher than any other field of 2009. I'll pose the same question to you that I've posed to maybe 20 other members (they've all dodged) who crap on the bc field. Name a TOUGHER field from 09 and we'll dissect it with the same level of detail everyone likes to with the bc field.

The Classic is supposed to have the toughest field by definition. It was a weak year all around.

[NTamm1215]

And why is that? Because it hurts your argument? It's funny how everyone wants to bring up him losing the strub by 2 lengths as proof he's so terrible on synthetic. Of course they want to ignore all his turf loses. Convenient

If everyone would take off the blinders and stop looking desperately for ways to discredit the bc field they'll see that Gio Ponti runs very similar over both surfaces.

So prior to the BC Classic you must have felt that Gio Ponti was a great bet, that is if you believed he would duplicate the form that helped him to 4 GI wins at distance ranging from 8-11 furlongs.

Look, I'm about the biggest Gio Ponti fan around and I really don't have a dog in the Zenyatta fight, I bet him in the Classic, but the thought that he was as good on Pro-Ride as he was on turf is just silly.

NT

[ghostyapper]

It is funny though that someone would bring up three losses in a span of two years to try and make a statement about a horse who won four GI races in one calendar year. It would have just been easier to admit that Gio Ponti was not running on his preferred surface.

NT

What's even funnier is someone bringing up his 2 length loss in the strub as proof he can't run on synthetic.

[ghostyapper]

The Classic is supposed to have the toughest field by definition. It was a weak year all around.

So another one dodges it. O well...

[NTamm1215]

What's even funnier is someone bringing up his 2 length loss in the strub as proof he can't run on synthetic.

If you can watch the 2009 Strub then the 2009 Kilroe and believe that you're watching the same horse then my hat's off to you.

NT

[ghostyapper]

If you can watch the 2009 Strub then the 2009 Kilroe and believe that you're watching the same horse then my hat's off to you.

NT

So what would your opinion have been of Gio Ponti on synthetic had Zenyatta opted for the distaff? Coming off a loss on the turf he would have won the bc classic earning his highest speed figure of his career. But yea you would have said he's better on turf right? :confused:

[Hedevar]

So another one dodges it. O well...

Speaking of dodging lets talk Zenyatta. That is what this thread is about and the manner she has been able to dodge all but glorified overnight stakes horses this year.

[andymays]

Dude. This is so turning into an improv sketch.

You and Hedevar and a handful of others are playing the staight-man bits, being approached by people that drew character cards that say "overzealous horse person."

Cah-lassic. :ThmbUp:

Absolutely! :ThmbUp:

[NTamm1215]

So what would your opinion have been of Gio Ponti on synthetic had Zenyatta opted for the distaff? Coming off a loss on the turf he would have won the bc classic earning his highest speed figure of his career. But yea you would have said he's better on turf right? :confused:

There's barely a thing he could have done in the Classic that would have made me have even a shred of doubt about his preferred surface.

He had a sensational trip in the Classic and ran a very strong race, finishing second to a horse who's better than him, on that surface.

NT

[Ejmenz]

OK

[BluegrassProf]

So what would your opinion have been of Gio Ponti on synthetic had Zenyatta opted for the distaff? Coming off a loss on the turf he would have won the bc classic earning his highest speed figure of his career. But yea you would have said he's better on turf right? :confused:How does this make any dang sense? In a thread chock full o' silly, this is quite a doozy...

Just to toss out an example: many hold firm to the "Zen's better on dirt" claim, despite her impressive synthetic wins. Your parallel argument would be that, given her synthetic wins, such a statement would be false.

See how silly that is?

Just a quick comment...by all means, carry on... :ThmbUp:

[Hedevar]

Well that was fun while it lasted.

[McSock]

I am a big fan of Zen. I do feel she is a better horse than RA. I am not convinced she can win the classic again. Some 3 year olds have gotten better at 4, it will be on a strange track. As much as I hate to say it, a big factor, luck has to catch up with her sometime.

[PaceAdvantage]

Oh so in other word's it's because you say so? Got it. Isn't this how you'd like us to treat all of your posts? Seems like it...

Only we don't have a really cool nickname to call you like "Mr. Beyer Boy"

[bisket]

rabble rouser :D

[Bobzilla]

I don't agree at all. Summer Bird is a high quality grinder who will always struggle against world class horses such as Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta. He ran as good a race as he had at Oaktree, but he was facing better horses than he usually did.


Obviously I can't say conclusively what the results would have been if, hypothetically speaking, the 2009 BC Classic had been contested at Belmont Park or Churchill Downs. Nobody can. I do think it's an interesting question to think about. I certainly don't doubt for one second Zenyatta could have won it and I wouldn't have been surprised at all. That said, I think it would have been a tougher assignment for her to accomplish. I stronly suspect Summer Bird's chances would have improved dramatically.

I do sense you're underestimating Summer Bird's development over the course of the year and the level of form he had reached by the end of his sophmore campaign. I don't think it's reasonable to suggest his dirt form was anything but "world class" come the fall of last year. Regardless of what the order of finish might have been, I doubt he would have "struggled" against that particular field, on that day, over a dirt surface.

Some don't assign much weight to the variable of surface type. Others, such as myeslf, consider it one of the most important variables to consider when most of the competitors in a given race fall within a comparable range of ability. Sure, horses like Midnight Lute can win a BC event over a surface that may be least preferred when they're so much the best that the variable of surface type becomes less important. But in a race as competitive as a typical BC Classic I really don't think a horse can have many straws in its path if it's going to have any chance to win. At least this is the way I look at it and I realize you probably view it differently.

[Hedevar]

So, before you start elevating him to superstar status, you first better hope that Summer Bird or a like contender doesn't come back to the races and reveal him once again as a fast colt who can't stay a classic distance..

I don't like to pile on and I thought about posting this, but for the life of me I don't understand how Cadillakin, (the highest winning weight in thirty years guy) who came back and ignored that post, actually wrote that Summer Bird who won the Belmont and Travers cannot stay a classic distance.

[Fager Fan]

I think you forgot.. Last year in the Classic.. Zenyatta entered the gates and proved much best over a full field. Meanwhile Quality Road chickened out.. and hid in his stall... It's amazing how you can watch such an occurrence and crown the chicken champion...

Would you suggest that about a fighter who jumped out of the ring and ran out of the arena when the bell rang for the first round? That he was better than the one who remained in the ring and stood ready to fight? Are you old enough to remember Roberto Duran failing to answer the belll against Sugar Ray Leonard? He sat on his stool.. and said; "No mas." I imagine there were some loyal supporters of his that claimed he could have kicked Sugar Ray's ass.. But the fact was, he lacked the courage to do so..

Being a racehorse is not only about speed. It's also about sensibility, settling well in classic races, demonstrating courage, and expressing speed, as needed. Quality Road has a lot of speed. No doubt. But as for the other characteristics, they are not easily apparent.

Remember this, my friend.. Quality Road wasn't even the best of his year at 10 furlongs in 2009. Summer Bird bested him both times at the classic distance. And that colt can't carry Zenyatta's water bucket.. Even his trainer admitted the mare beat him on the square. "No excuses" said Tim Ice. You can pretend that Quality Road is all this and all that.. but when the time came to face the best in his crop, he got beat, not once but twice, by the same horse..

So, before you start elevating him to superstar status, you first better hope that Summer Bird or a like contender doesn't come back to the races and reveal him once again as a fast colt who can't stay a classic distance..

Cad, I can't believe you actually said QR "chickened out" and "hid in his stall" after what happened at the load of the BC Classic.

That's the talk of a wacky, illogical fan, not the intelligent, logical observation of someone knowledgable that I'd expect of you.

[5k-claim]

If I had a vote last year I would have gone with RA for HOY. On paper, it would not have even been an agonizing decision, despite how much I love Z.

That disclosure aside, the building of the Legend of Z is rolling. Whether she faces G1 males before the BCC or not, there is that future possibility of the one image of Z that gets burned forever into the memories of the public masses will be of her chasing down G1 male rivals on the dirt of Churchill Downs in the BCC to preserve for all time her perfect record and title of 'Living Legend'.

If it happens that way, some people will correctly try to point out after the fact "but that was her only time against G1 males on the dirt...", but with that indelible image of her roaring down the Churchill stretch to cap of three consecutive BC wins and two straight in the BCC, it really won't matter very much what people try to say. Her legend will be cemented in history. With or without this year's Oscar.

Team Z is good. Sure, at the beginning of the year my wish list for Z's 2010 campaign included three big races outside of CA and one other against G1 males on the dirt in addition to the BCC- and I am still wishing- but this will end up one heck of a dramatic and exciting show either way.

[the little guy]

but this will end up one heck of a dramatic and exciting show either way.

Oh the drama!

Zenyatta-Annabeth's Creation II already has me on the edge of my seat. If D Wayne ships out Be Fair for the Vanity I don't know how I will be able to control myself.

[FenceBored]

If I had a vote last year I would have gone with RA for HOY. On paper, it would not have even been an agonizing decision, despite how much I love Z.

That disclosure aside, the building of the Legend of Z is rolling. Whether she faces G1 males before the BCC or not, there is that future possibility of the one image of Z that gets burned forever into the memories of the public masses will be of her chasing down G1 male rivals on the dirt of Churchill Downs in the BCC to preserve for all time her perfect record and title of 'Living Legend'.

If it happens that way, some people will correctly try to point out after the fact "but that was her only time against G1 males on the dirt...", but with that indelible image of her roaring down the Churchill stretch to cap of three consecutive BC wins and two straight in the BCC, it really won't matter very much what people try to say. Her legend will be cemented in history. With or without this year's Oscar.

Team Z is good. Sure, at the beginning of the year my wish list for Z's 2010 campaign included three big races outside of CA and one other against G1 males on the dirt in addition to the BCC- and I am still wishing- but this will end up one heck of a dramatic and exciting show either way.

And if the Classic doesn't happen that way, what then? If she comes up short, or gets stopped, or Mike falls off what can her connections point to for the year? Squat.

[5k-claim]

And if the Classic doesn't happen that way, what then? If she comes up short, or gets stopped, or Mike falls off what can her connections point to for the year? Squat.

Exactly. 100%

Thus heightening the drama of that race. No?

Like I said, I am still looking forward to a great campaign, but even if it comes up pretty conservative Churchill will be absolutely electric for that race.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... Churchill will be absolutely electric for that race.

Unless there is a chance of showers.

[FenceBored]

Exactly. 100%

Thus heightening the drama of that race. No?

No.

Like I said, I am still looking forward to a great campaign, but even if it comes up pretty conservative Churchill will be absolutely electric for that race.

Is the crowd generally bored for the Classic?

[5k-claim]

Unless there is a chance of showers.

On the heels of a really conservative campaign.

Ouch.

There are so many angles to think about in this campaign. I really wish Team Z a lot of luck in charting their course. It would probably give me an ulcer.

[johnhannibalsmith]

On the heels of a really conservative campaign...


Yeah, I'm usually reluctant to pull a low blow style Zenyatta punch, but I'm glad you took it the way I meant it.

I'd prefer to see her campaigned like the Champion that so many people believe that she is, convinced she was robbed of the title. But, I also understand the philosophy of being deliberate and delicate, following a path that leads to an ultimate goal.

Unfortunately, horses don't always give a rat's ass about any plan. Rain, colic, abscess, drunken jock... Sometimes, when you got something worth using, the time to use it is when it works. It very well may not work tomorrow and that can be a tad anti-climactic and un-electric.

[DeanT]

I'd prefer to see her campaigned like the Champion that so many people believe that she is, convinced she was robbed of the title. But, I also understand the philosophy of being deliberate and delicate, following a path that leads to an ultimate goal.

That's the question for me with horses nowadays.

The possible fact is, that we are talking about Zenyatta at age six like we are on this board, because she has been campaigned like she has.

Big Brown was campaigned to take on all comers at all times, so was Afleet Alex and countless others. Even if the pot of gold of stud money was not there, how many of them would we be speaking of at age six for a BC Classic run?

I dont think we can have it both ways - wanting a horse who takes on all comers at all times and at the same time wanting horses to race at six. The way most horses are today cant seem to hack that. It aint 1970 anymore. For every Curlin there are ten Afleet Alex's, or I Want Revenge's or Eskendreya's. even Curlin at the end of a two and a half year campaign looked like he had enough.

I went into this year hoping to see three things from her as a fan - a race against Rachel in the AB, a race at BEL or CD against males and a Breeders Cup Classic start. She tried to accomplish the first, and she is on track to try the two others.

Being a person that wants to see horses last longer, I can not complain too much about Zenyatta's connections decisions. I think we are talking about her now because of those decisions, and after all, it is pretty tough to argue with 16 for 16, the first female BC Classic winner, who is right on track to defend her title at the end of year event, which is the most watched race for open horses on the planet.

[5k-claim]

Yeah, I'm usually reluctant to pull a low blow style Zenyatta punch, but I'm glad you took it the way I meant it.

I'd prefer to see her campaigned like the Champion that so many people believe that she is, convinced she was robbed of the title. But, I also understand the philosophy of being deliberate and delicate, following a path that leads to an ultimate goal.

Unfortunately, horses don't always give a rat's ass about any plan. Rain, colic, abscess, drunken jock... Sometimes, when you got something worth using, the time to use it is when it works. It very well may not work tomorrow and that can be a tad anti-climactic and un-electric.


I'm with you. That is why it is much safer to be tucked away at the low end of the game where I am, where it is just a matter of:

Fit? Check.
Healthy? Check.
Happy? Check.
Alright then, find one of the books and let's pick a spot to go.


Those guys at the top in an entirely different world, I have a lot of respect for them and what they have to do.

[stringmail]

Hedevar

It is quite obvious that Cadillakin is referring to Quality Road as the horse with no ability to get the classic distance. The comment related to Cadillakin's opinion that QR stands little chance to beat Z if QR can't get to Summer Bird at 1 1/4.

The "reveal him" referred to QR.

Of course, perhaps I totally misintepreted the comment but that is how I read it which I think you would agree with based on his (Cadillakin) opinion.

[Fager Fan]

Hedevar

It is quite obvious that Cadillakin is referring to Quality Road as the horse with no ability to get the classic distance. The comment related to Cadillakin's opinion that QR stands little chance to beat Z if QR can't get to Summer Bird at 1 1/4.

The "reveal him" referred to QR.

Of course, perhaps I totally misintepreted the comment but that is how I read it which I think you would agree with based on his (Cadillakin) opinion.

Agreed that he was talking of QR. That said, QR was 3 at the time, and many horses can stretch out further at 4. In addition, QR was still dealing with his feet issues the 2 times he met Summer Bird.

I'll also add that it took about 14 races before Miss Thang proved she could win at 1 1/4 miles, and prior to her doing it, there were people who said she couldn't as well.

[cj]

Dean, Big Brown's Derby was his 4th lifetime start. He didn't run very often and he wound up hurt all the time anyway. Horses are either sound or they are not, babying them doesn't make them last any longer in nearly all cases.

[bisket]

i think he takes a healthy set hanging between the legs to campaign zen the way they do more so than to run rachel the way assmussen and jackson have.

[Spalding No!]

i think he takes a healthy set hanging between the legs to campaign zen the way they do more so than to run rachel the way assmussen and jackson have.

Surely you can expound on this lest you face an onslaught of tomatoes from the hordes laying in wait.

Don't worry, though. We'll recycle the cans so Zenyatta has something to run against the rest of the year.

[cj]

i think he takes a healthy set hanging between the legs to campaign zen the way they do more so than to run rachel the way assmussen and jackson have.

nice one bisket.da cj new u had a sense of humor in their some wear. glad you r finally letting it out of da bag.cj really hopes u continue this new found posting technique. i imagine the zenyattards will be none too happy to see this post of yours when they c the sarcasm that u intended buy posting it.

[DeanT]

Dean, Big Brown's Derby was his 4th lifetime start. He didn't run very often and he wound up hurt all the time anyway. Horses are either sound or they are not, babying them doesn't make them last any longer in nearly all cases.
I would agree with that in cases like him, but racing horses tough takes something out of them, if you push it too much, would you not agree? The triple crown trail is not filled with unsound horses (altho in cases there are) but who were the ones to go through that ringer that is the TC races and be a better horse late in the year as they were early?

Curlin? Hard Spun did alright as did Street Sense, there are some.... none of whom even if not retired would be in the BC at age five and six, I think.

The last couple of geldings, Funny Cide and Mine That Bird did not exactly set the grade one stakes world on fire after their Derby wins. Summer Bird was a sound horse I thought. So was Rags to Riches.

I think it comes down to what we want from our horses. If we want short careers, race them like they are born and bred on an assembly line, go to the TC trail and go for the pot of gold in stud land. If not, we get Zenyatta - several years of racing, with breaks and soft spots more than we like as fans.

Dr. Bramlige speaks that it is not a big deal to race horses early unless they are not overly taxed. But we seem to tax them. The overseas game seems to produce sounder horses who can race quite a bit, but if you look how they do it, it's different. The 1000 Guineas this past week had a bunch of three year olds, most who only had one or two starts. Compare that to the Oaks fillies and Derby colts. Most of those horses are cryoed more than a dude in a sci-fi film, before they are even three by calendar years.

On the harness racing side, which you as a Jersey boy know (:)), it is even more weird. Most of the trotters there do not even race until four and are not taxed at all early. There have been tons of talented trotters there who come over and kick our ass, and they are eight when they are here. Victory Tilly who won a stakes at the Meadowlands not long ago set a track record, under a hand ride, and he had been racing five straight seasons (he did it at age nine). He retired at 12 as sound as he was when he started at three. He is the norm there, not the exception. We'd call those horses "duckers" but after racing for six seasons at a high level I dont think they much care what they are called by us. Conversely, our three year olds here are toasted at age three, and race 12 times before hitting stud duty.

I dont know, but I admire a horse like Z and the connections for trying a different approach. To me, I dont need to see her race Macho Again every start, because I think I can handicap and know she'd dust him. I would much rather her race for three years and be able to race the Rachels and BC Classic horses when she is called to the mat, as that leaves more of an indelable print on me. I would take her career, over a mare like Rags to Riches anyday eventho I had the crack like high seeing her win the Belmont, and I dont think that three seasons of racing at a high level has happened by accident. If it was an accident, more horses in the 2000's would be doing it.

JMO, of course. Smart people like Bramlige and yourself make a sound point.

[bisket]

nice one bisket.da cj new u had a sense of humor in their some wear. glad you r finally letting it out of da bag.cj really hopes u continue this new found posting technique. i imagine the zenyattards will be none too happy to see this post of yours when they c the sarcasm that u intended buy posting it.
actually its a compliment to sheriffs. it takes balls to do what you feel is right, and have physically and mentally healthy horse, than to please your detractors. if she is as good as i think she is it will be proven by the end of this year. i think they are racing her similar to last year, but her detractors won't have the dirt angle to throw around. she will be here this summer (east). it'll be interesting to see who shows up to race her.

[Hedevar]

Agreed that he was talking of QR. That said, QR was 3 at the time, and many horses can stretch out further at 4. In addition, QR was still dealing with his feet issues the 2 times he met Summer Bird.

I'll also add that it took about 14 races before Miss Thang proved she could win at 1 1/4 miles, and prior to her doing it, there were people who said she couldn't as well.

My error

[Dahoss9698]

nice one bisket.da cj new u had a sense of humor in their some wear. glad you r finally letting it out of da bag.cj really hopes u continue this new found posting technique. i imagine the zenyattards will be none too happy to see this post of yours when they c the sarcasm that u intended buy posting it.

I'm still laughing at this.

[Grits]

I'm still laughing at this.

He's texting back and forth with his teenage daughters too much. Its beginning to spill over in his posts.:lol:

God help us! I'm awful at reading textspeak. LOLOL