Zenyatta & the Dodgers [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

classhandicapper

05-10-2010, 07:02 PM

Apparently it is actually Rail Trip town, since her trainer has now proclaimed when asked about taking him on in the HGC, "No. We're not looking to climb the highest mountain possible. She's proven herself now."

Rail Trip is now the highest mountain? I thought it was the Rockies he was afraid to travel over? Now Rail Trip is the toughest. What heavenly structure will he dub Quality Road next?

Speaking of Rail Trip, that's a horse I would love to see run on the dirt.

I'm not a pedigree guy. So perhaps someone could chime in. But given the tendency for depressed speed figures on synthetic in general and his front running/stalking running style, he might be eligible to put up some fancy Beyers on dirt.

I think you totally forget abut Zenyatta taking on tough colts until the end of the year.

IMO, Zenyatta had one of the most perfectly managed campaigns in the history of racing last year. They kept her at home, spaced her races well, kept her out of really tough spots, didn't crank her up until the end of the year, and got a peak performance on BC day. It's simply impossible to manage a campaign any better than to peak on the biggest day of the year at the end of the campaign.

It cost them Horse of the Year because they just happened to run into another buzz saw. That's also not be the kind of campaign fans want. But from a horse management point of view it was perfection.

I think they will approximate the same campaign this time.

They are simply not going to run this horse ragged like Rachel's connections did last year trying to prove what she can do in April through August and have a dead horse in the fall.

PaceAdvantage

05-11-2010, 12:04 AM

They are simply not going to run this horse ragged like Rachel's connections did last year trying to prove what she can do in April through August and have a dead horse in the fall.Ugh...I give up...

Dahoss9698

05-11-2010, 12:31 AM

Ugh...I give up...

You have fought a valiant fight. But no matter how many times Team Zenyatta ducks a challenge from this point until the Breeders Cup, the usual cast of characters will defend it. It's just not worth it.

I know it's not their fault Rachel was unable to make the Apple Blossom, but they knew they had a definite fitness edge on Rachel. To go back to California and run against the same females she has beaten for 2 years now is chicken shit and I don't think any reasonable person can deny this. If they want to hide out in California, fine, but why not take on males? Who exactly are they afraid of?

Anyone that thinks Rachel admirers are the ones who are not being honest about their horse are fooling themselves. Imagine if Nick Zito kept Commentator in nothing but NY Bred races? He probably could have went undefeated. I'm not saying it's the same thing, but it's pretty close.

PaceAdvantage

05-11-2010, 12:33 AM

BUT BUT BUT BUT....the BREEDERS' CUP CLASSIC....(on synth, against turf horses, a broken down Euro second stringer, and a couple of dirt horses who don't like synth too much)

BUT BUT BUT BUT....GINGER PUNCH!!!!

:faint:

Wait...I forgot for a second that I gave up...

Never mind.

toussaud

05-11-2010, 01:06 AM

Speaking of Rail Trip, that's a horse I would love to see run on the dirt.

I'm not a pedigree guy. So perhaps someone could chime in. But given the tendency for depressed speed figures on synthetic in general and his front running/stalking running style, he might be eligible to put up some fancy Beyers on dirt.

I think you totally forget abut Zenyatta taking on tough colts until the end of the year.

IMO, Zenyatta had one of the most perfectly managed campaigns in the history of racing last year. They kept her at home, spaced her races well, kept her out of really tough spots, didn't crank her up until the end of the year, and got a peak performance on BC day. It's simply impossible to manage a campaign any better than to peak on the biggest day of the year at the end of the campaign.

It cost them Horse of the Year because they just happened to run into another buzz saw. That's also not be the kind of campaign fans want. But from a horse management point of view it was perfection.

I think they will approximate the same campaign this time.

They are simply not going to run this horse ragged like Rachel's connections did last year trying to prove what she can do in April through August and have a dead horse in the fall.

you could not come up wtih a dirtier pedigree than rail trip's

any horse that runs his BEST at hollywood park you need to take a long, long look at on dirt. it's been proven time and time again.

born2ride

05-11-2010, 01:13 AM

Speaking of Rail Trip, that's a horse I would love to see run on the dirt.

I'm not a pedigree guy. So perhaps someone could chime in. But given the tendency for depressed speed figures on synthetic in general and his front running/stalking running style, he might be eligible to put up some fancy Beyers on dirt.

I think you totally forget abut Zenyatta taking on tough colts until the end of the year.

IMO, Zenyatta had one of the most perfectly managed campaigns in the history of racing last year. They kept her at home, spaced her races well, kept her out of really tough spots, didn't crank her up until the end of the year, and got a peak performance on BC day. It's simply impossible to manage a campaign any better than to peak on the biggest day of the year at the end of the campaign.

It cost them Horse of the Year because they just happened to run into another buzz saw. That's also not be the kind of campaign fans want. But from a horse management point of view it was perfection.

I think they will approximate the same campaign this time.

They are simply not going to run this horse ragged like Rachel's connections did last year trying to prove what she can do in April through August and have a dead horse in the fall.

Same campaign, same ending - no HOY. They're obviously more interested in protecting her record than testing her. Well, she's 16-0, and that's likely how many HOY trophies Moss will get --> 0. You may say she's managed perfectly, I however call it mismanagement. Her talent is being wasted by beating up on the same overmatched group of fillies/mares in Cali.

Gorgeous George

05-11-2010, 04:27 AM

http://www.paulickreport.com/wp-content/uploads/image/Dodgers_Zenyatta_billboard.jpg

Hedevar

05-11-2010, 08:37 AM

Despite the proclamations of the Mosses and Sheriffs that this year would be different and Zenyatta would have her suitcase packed, which were echoed and defended in a most snotty manner by the Zenyatta sycophants on this board, she will remain in California until the BC.

I am somewhat surprised that they are considering running her against males, but I guess perhaps even her most ardent supporters might stop making their homemade signs if she continued running against the usual suspects. Not referring to the signs the track passes out.

For quite awhile now I've had the feeling Zenyatta was Ann Moss's pet not a racehorse and if she could she would keep her in the house.

I do think she is a great mare but one that has the entire Hollywood dream machine behind her and is way overdone.

classhandicapper

05-11-2010, 06:28 PM

Ugh...I give up...

I can't even comprehend what you could "give up" about or object to about what I said.

There is something called a form cycle.

If you run a horse too often against tough competition you will eventually wear that horse out. So if the goal is to peak in the fall when the really important races occur, you are better off starting off in the spring instead of Jan/Feb, spacing the races, and giving the horse a freshener somewhere along the line after a couple of tougher ones.

That's the way Zenyatta was handled last year and that's why they got her to peak in the Breeder's Cup instead of the summer.

Rachel was handled much differently.

She started early in the year without much of break from the prior year, ran against colts in the Preakness (a fairly tough race for her), the Haskell, and then had a gut wrenching performance in the Woodward. In between there were other efforts. That's why at the end of her campaign she was tired, needed a long rest, and perhaps that even accounts for why she has been disappointing so far this year.

It's simply a reality that most horses can only take so much racing before tailing off.

As a fan, I understand why someone would want a top horse to be tested frequently. But you can't burn the candle at both ends. You can't ask a top filly to take on top colts on dirt multiple times and still expect to have a horse in November for the Breeder's Cup.

Last year Zenyatta was handled to run well in the BC and Rachel was handled to impress during the year and pretty much run into the ground by the end of the year.

classhandicapper

05-11-2010, 06:43 PM

You have fought a valiant fight. But no matter how many times Team Zenyatta ducks a challenge from this point until the Breeders Cup, the usual cast of characters will defend it. It's just not worth it.

I know it's not their fault Rachel was unable to make the Apple Blossom, but they knew they had a definite fitness edge on Rachel. To go back to California and run against the same females she has beaten for 2 years now is chicken shit and I don't think any reasonable person can deny this. If they want to hide out in California, fine, but why not take on males? Who exactly are they afraid of?

Name one modern filly that ran a series of races against Grade 1 older horses on dirt.

Almost every great filly that tired colts on dirt did it very infrequently and very selectively or did it against 3YO colts in the spring/summer when the colts were not fully developed yet and the filly was ahead of them.

The handful of great fillies that took on the very best Grade 1 older colts on dirt got their heads handed to them (like in the BC etc..).

To be successful against colts on dirt, even the greatest fillies have to be selective. It was no accident that Rachel's connections took on a Woodward field that contained such giants as Macho Again and Bullsbay (sp). It was a weak spot for a Grade 1 race.

You guys are not asking Zenyatta to take on Grade 1 older colts on dirt, you are asking her to take on older colts all year long because she'd obviously eventually get beat, be depleted by year end, and then you could gloat even though you are asking for something that no filly has done.

Isn't it enough that they are aiming for the Classic AGAIN, (this time on dirt) when virtually every great filly that's tried that level of competition on dirt has gotten her head handed to her?

You want her to beat colts all year long too. :bang:

Be patient, they make take on one or more other tough fields. But they are NOT GOING to be RETARDED because you guys want to see her lose. If the goal is the Classic, they are going to have a fresh horse in November

Dahoss9698

05-11-2010, 10:01 PM

Name one modern filly that ran a series of races against Grade 1 older horses on dirt.

Almost every great filly that tired colts on dirt did it very infrequently and very selectively or did it against 3YO colts in the spring/summer when the colts were not fully developed yet and the filly was ahead of them.

The handful of great fillies that took on the very best Grade 1 older colts on dirt got their heads handed to them (like in the BC etc..).

To be successful against colts on dirt, even the greatest fillies have to be selective. It was no accident that Rachel's connections took on a Woodward field that contained such giants as Macho Again and Bullsbay (sp). It was a weak spot for a Grade 1 race.

You guys are not asking Zenyatta to take on Grade 1 older colts on dirt, you are asking her to take on older colts all year long because she'd obviously eventually get beat, be depleted by year end, and then you could gloat even though you are asking for something that no filly has done.

Isn't it enough that they are aiming for the Classic AGAIN, (this time on dirt) when virtually every great filly that's tried that level of competition on dirt has gotten her head handed to her?

You want her to beat colts all year long too. :bang:

Be patient, they make take on one or more other tough fields. But they are NOT GOING to be RETARDED because you guys want to see her lose. If the goal is the Classic, they are going to have a fresh horse in November

If you want to throw the superlatives at her, then I'd like to see her live up to some of them. I never said she needs to beat colts all year long. But running against them more than once (maybe twice if she makes it to the BC). How many times did Serena's Song run against males?

It's not about seeing her lose, for the thousandth time. It's about seeing her actually have a challenging year. Take on the best horses. Not just on Breeders Cup Day, as you would think by now Team Zenyatta would realize there is more to the year than just that day.

Can't you still have a fresh horse in November with 2 races against males during the year? The funny thing is you guys want it both ways. You want everyone to see how brilliant she is, but you also don't want to see her prove it on the track. It's like you think you are the only ones that "get it". I think anyone that doesn't think she's the greatest ever would just like to see her run in a few challenging races this year.

That should be nothing for a horse that is considered by many to be an all time great. It's not like there is an abundance of older male talent out west. I don't even care if she doesn't ship out of the synthetic triangle, but a few starts against males is really not asking a lot for an all time great.

Cardus

05-11-2010, 10:03 PM

The irony of this thread title just hit me.

the little guy

05-11-2010, 10:10 PM

The irony of this thread title just hit me.

Me too.

I guess the Dodgers know one when they see one.

PaceAdvantage

05-12-2010, 04:09 AM

Rachel was handled much differently.And why do you think this is so? Would it be, perhaps, because she was a three-year-old last year, and the most important three-year-old races occur in the spring and summer? Never mind the BCC was never (not once) on the table for RA.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have ourselves a winner.

WinterTriangle

05-12-2010, 04:17 AM

You want her to beat colts all year long too. :bang:

If it was on the same day, at different tracks, in multiple races, even better. ;)

I would give up at this point. Anyone who doesn't appreciate Zenyatta at this point in the game isn't going to. There is nothing you can say that will change that.

That's fine. She has more than a large enough fan base anyway.

I'm happy to see a horse on a billboard along with baseball. that's a good thing. I would have been just as happy had it been rachel...or rail trip, or any thoroughbred.

PaceAdvantage

05-12-2010, 04:40 AM

Anyone who doesn't appreciate Zenyatta at this point in the game isn't going to.I suspect every one of us appreciates Zenyatta.

I know I do. I hope to heck she races here in NY so that I can see her in person.

There's a big difference though, in appreciating Zenyatta, her talents and what she's accomplished, and crowning her one of the best that ever was...

Gorgeous George

05-12-2010, 04:47 AM

05-12-2010, 08:47 AM

I love how racing 5 or 6 times a year is suddenly racing a horse ragged. If you are only going to race 5 times, shouldn't at least 4 of them be challenging?

Cardus

05-12-2010, 08:50 AM

I love how racing 5 or 6 times a year is suddenly racing a horse ragged. If you are only going to race 5 times, shouldn't at least 4 of them be challenging?

You're on the right track, but you can express it differently:

If you are only going to race 5 times, shouldn't at least two of them be mountains, two others hills, with only one valley.

05-12-2010, 08:54 AM

Audioslavery

05-12-2010, 09:08 AM

Hedevar

05-12-2010, 09:40 AM

Quoting Audioslavery
"104 for Blind Luck in the fantasy, I think Super Saver is a stain on the back of her stall compared to her. Ice Box could probably beat her on a good day, but during dry conditions the Preakness could be entirely different than the Derby."

Who is a stain on the back of Zenyatta's stall?

Dahoss9698

05-12-2010, 10:56 AM

Zenyatta's connections are choosing longevity over style. She has never lost a race over a 3 year career, that's all there is to it. She's healthy, happy, dappled, and ready for action year round, but god forbid people don't get their thrill at the expense of the living being at hand.

People will always find something to nitpick on doggone it. She could win the BCC on dirt again this year and people will still be here to complain.

This post sums it up perfectly. Totally ignore what people are saying and act like running a few challenging races will destroy a racehorse.

Some fans prefer their champions to be campaigned like champions. Some don't.

Dahoss9698

05-12-2010, 11:04 AM

I suspect every one of us appreciates Zenyatta.

I know I do. I hope to heck she races here in NY so that I can see her in person.

There's a big difference though, in appreciating Zenyatta, her talents and what she's accomplished, and crowning her one of the best that ever was...

Of course everyone appreciates her. But some of us remember a time when the best ran against the best. Zenyatta is a very, very good horse.

I have yet to read someone not say that she is a very good horse. What people are saying is, let her prove just how good she is by running in challenging spots. Clearly Zenyatta is an exceptional talent. So let's see it over the course of a year, or even a few races.

joanied

05-12-2010, 11:50 AM

I think that is what is so disappointing. Two of the races have already been valleys. It is not too bright of fans to applaud a top horse pointing to one race as the goal when it is 9 months away. That really ruins the sport and what it is supposed to be about.

It was race the best against the best and see who has the best horse. Now it is race against the easiest fields you can find and discuss which horse might be best in print.

I just posted about the BC in another thread...and I agree with you, cj. The BC changed everything...horses being pointed for it race less & less, they ship here & there to find the easiest spot possible...yeah, connections want to win...but at what expense...leaving race fans with an empty feeling because we rarely get to see the best horses race each other during the year ... we have wait for the BC...don't 'they' realize that folks will come out to the track on a Saturday in larger numbers if there is something exciting to see...like a stakes race that actually has several of the best horses facing off...not one or two of the best racing against allowance type horses...racing is about competition...and at the top end, we are constantly being short changed. And no one is going to fault a top horse getting beat by other top horses...when we had horses like Dr. Fager & Damascus, did anyone say one was less great because he was beaten by the other...nope!

PaceAdvantage

05-13-2010, 01:05 AM

You keep saying that Zenyatta should be in all the top races against males... no i do not. Where's the link?

ONE or TWO would suffice for me between now and BCC day...

The fact that her connections are shirking away from facing males even on her preferred surface (I know, they say she's better on dirt, but there's been no evidence of that yet) says a lot...

Kimsus

05-13-2010, 01:53 PM

no i do not. Where's the link?

ONE or TWO would suffice for me between now and BCC day...

The fact that her connections are shirking away from facing males even on her preferred surface (I know, they say she's better on dirt, but there's been no evidence of that yet) says a lot...

It's ene race PA, until Rail Trip ran so impressively :rolleyes: no one would have even paid attention to her going in the HW Copper Cup. Rail Trip is a sap, yeah he's won a few races, however he will show his true worth as the year goes on. She will be in the Classic at the end of the year, unless one is obsessed with her losing the win streak why are most jumping the gun that she is indeed not going to face males this year? I'm more concerned how she will run against males on dirt, since this is what her critics say she cannot do...

johnhannibalsmith

05-13-2010, 01:59 PM

...how she will run against males on dirt, since this is what her critics say she cannot do...

Did you mean to say "she has not done" instead of "cannot do"?

I've tried to keep up with all 235,612,258,346,124,347 pages on the subject and I'm struggling to recall a serious critique that suggested that beating males on dirt was beyond the scope of her abilities, just her credentials.

OntheRail

05-13-2010, 02:03 PM

It's ene race PA, until Rail Trip ran so impressively :rolleyes: no one would have even paid attention to her going in the HW Copper Cup. Rail Trip is a sap, yeah he's won a few races, however he will show his true worth as the year goes on. She will be in the Classic at the end of the year, unless one is obsessed with her losing the win streak why are most jumping the gun that she is indeed not going to face males this year? I'm more concerned how she will run against males on dirt, since this is what her critics say she cannot do...
And thus far her connections have refused to do. :bang:

I still think she will be retired before the BC.

Kimsus

05-13-2010, 02:37 PM

And thus far her connections have refused to do. :bang:

I still think she will be retired before the BC.

Other than running in the Grade III Alysheba Stakes and facing Macho Again, Bullsbay and the eventual winner Arson Sqaud, she tried to face a better field in the Apple Blossom. What other dirt race is there to run in? look I am dissapointed that she isn't pointing for the Foster but does anyone care if she beats Rail Trip? I am sure if things go according to plan she will face a field that will be the tougest dirt race in 2010 in the Classic that will please those that want to see her tested and in earnest to see her beaten.

BluegrassProf

05-13-2010, 04:47 PM

I am sure if things go according to plan she will face a field that will be the tougest dirt race in 2010 in the Classic that will please those that want to see her tested and in earnest to see her beaten.Which would certainly be stellar.:ThmbUp: But keep in mind, when discussing the end-of-the-year BC, there's much to be made of timing, as well - particularly if likely competitors run to their potential over the course of the season (which we all hope they do).

As has been driven into the ground, we'd all love to see an impressive campaign this year, not just an impressive race.

Kimsus

05-13-2010, 05:30 PM

Which would certainly be stellar.:ThmbUp: But keep in mind, when discussing the end-of-the-year BC, there's much to be made of timing, as well - particularly if likely competitors run to their potential over the course of the season (which we all hope they do).

As has been driven into the ground, we'd all love to see an impressive campaign this year, not just an impressive race.

In alot of cases there is always a defining race in a campaign, I would assume she will have races in between the Vanity and the BC Classic depending on her health and that she retains her form. This is horseracing, many of the greats other than a select few that have raced for a prolonged amount of time have shown they are not invincible. So I can certainly understand if they are aiming at one big defining moment sprinkled in with some memorable races, that better that than nothing at all.

bisket

05-13-2010, 08:09 PM

I think that is what is so disappointing. Two of the races have already been valleys. It is not too bright of fans to applaud a top horse pointing to one race as the goal when it is 9 months away. That really ruins the sport and what it is supposed to be about.

It was race the best against the best and see who has the best horse. Now it is race against the easiest fields you can find and discuss which horse might be best in print.
yes two have been valleys, but the apple blossom she was cranked up for because up until a few weeks beforehand they thought they were racing rachel. see this is the problem jackson faked them out. i know the race itself wasn't tough (apple blossom), but she was trained hard up to the race. they obviously have decided because no other horse of substance has come forward to race her to wait until later on in the season. as far as rail trip, beating him will prove nothing. she's already shown that she can beat better in the classic last year. they want to prove she's as good on dirt, and thats the focus. hopefully someone steps forward to race her this summer in addition to the classic.

FenceBored

05-13-2010, 08:33 PM

yes two have been valleys, but the apple blossom she was cranked up for because up until a few weeks beforehand they thought they were racing rachel. see this is the problem jackson faked them out. i know the race itself wasn't tough (apple blossom), but she was trained hard up to the race. they obviously have decided because no other horse of substance has come forward to race her to wait until later on in the season. as far as rail trip, beating him will prove nothing. she's already shown that she can beat better in the classic last year. they want to prove she's as good on dirt, and thats the focus. hopefully someone steps forward to race her this summer in addition to the classic.

Zenyatta was always planning to go to the Apple Blossom. They had to make no adjustments or change a thing. The race we saw is the race we would have seen if the whole $5m race thing had never happened.

bisket

05-13-2010, 08:57 PM

Zenyatta was always planning to go to the Apple Blossom. They had to make no adjustments or change a thing. The race we saw is the race we would have seen if the whole $5m race thing had never happened.
they thought they were going to be racing a fast horse, and they planned accordingly. the race you saw was nowhere near the race that shirreffs expected to be in.

OntheRail

05-13-2010, 09:27 PM

they thought they were going to be racing a fast horse, and they planned accordingly. the race you saw was nowhere near the race that shirreffs expected to be in.
:bang: BS... Sherreffs got the race he expected... in no way shape or form did they want to run in a field of gun slingers. They got the race they were pointed for before Rachel and others were being bribed to run in the AB. But you know this already. ;)

WinterTriangle

05-14-2010, 12:36 AM

we'd all love to see an impressive campaign this year, not just an impressive race.

I'd like to see more than ONE YEAR impressive campaigns.

However, it appears some don't think we are getting that from Zen----and some think we "may not" be getting that from our 2009 HOY (who is younger) either.

In which case, ruining a horse so that I can be impressed is not on my list of things I hope for.

They have already impressed me. :jump:

(As I'm finding out though, I am less-inclined to trash thoroughbreds who race for our pleasure, calling them euro-trash and other truly denigrating terms, than some here.)

I guess that might explain how some truly wonderful horses end up as $2K claimers running lame. If we don't appreciate and honor them to begin with, there's no saying they won't end up that way, is there? :bang:

letswastemoney

05-14-2010, 01:19 AM

Name one modern filly that ran a series of races against Grade 1 older horses on dirt.

Almost every great filly that tired colts on dirt did it very infrequently and very selectively or did it against 3YO colts in the spring/summer when the colts were not fully developed yet and the filly was ahead of them.

The handful of great fillies that took on the very best Grade 1 older colts on dirt got their heads handed to them (like in the BC etc..).

To be successful against colts on dirt, even the greatest fillies have to be selective. It was no accident that Rachel's connections took on a Woodward field that contained such giants as Macho Again and Bullsbay (sp). It was a weak spot for a Grade 1 race.

You guys are not asking Zenyatta to take on Grade 1 older colts on dirt, you are asking her to take on older colts all year long because she'd obviously eventually get beat, be depleted by year end, and then you could gloat even though you are asking for something that no filly has done.

Isn't it enough that they are aiming for the Classic AGAIN, (this time on dirt) when virtually every great filly that's tried that level of competition on dirt has gotten her head handed to her?

You want her to beat colts all year long too. :bang:

Be patient, they make take on one or more other tough fields. But they are NOT GOING to be RETARDED because you guys want to see her lose. If the goal is the Classic, they are going to have a fresh horse in November
Then I hope Sherriffs doesn't complain when Zenyatta continues to get abuse from her skeptics!

Zenyatta just plain does not deserve HOTY if she cannot handle a schedule facing males on a semi-regular basis...considering Quality Road does not even have that option and must always run against open company!!!!

I hope Quality Road wins HOTY because he will deserve it if he has the season I think he will have. He could lose one or two races, then win the BCC, and it will STILL have been a great year. Why? Cause he was facing open company the whole year!! Great horses run in great races! Maybe Zenyatta isn't great if she can't handle open company more than once a year.

letswastemoney

05-14-2010, 01:52 AM

Zenyatta's connections are choosing longevity over style. She has never lost a race over a 3 year career, that's all there is to it. She's healthy, happy, dappled, and ready for action year round, but god forbid people don't get their thrill at the expense of the living being at hand.

People will always find something to nitpick on doggone it. She could win the BCC on dirt again this year and people will still be here to complain.
Cigar had an incredible undefeated 1995 campaign, competing in open company in EVERY race...and they were mostly G1 and G2 races as well!! And you know what??

He still came back to win 1996 HOTY.

ghostyapper

05-14-2010, 07:27 AM

Kimsus

05-14-2010, 08:50 AM

:bang: BS... Sherreffs got the race he expected... in no way shape or form did they want to run in a field of gun slingers. They got the race they were pointed for before Rachel and others were being bribed to run in the AB. But you know this already. ;)

If this were so, I would love to borrow his crystal ball and then proceed in buying a N.Y state lottery ticket.

Kimsus

05-14-2010, 08:52 AM

Cigar had an incredible undefeated 1995 campaign, competing in open company in EVERY race...and they were mostly G1 and G2 races as well!! And you know what??

He still came back to win 1996 HOTY.

Yes, and some still question the competition he faced that year. Ya know sometimes you just can't win against the naysayers...

Nikki1997

05-14-2010, 09:30 AM

Then I hope Sherriffs doesn't complain when Zenyatta continues to get abuse from her skeptics!

Zenyatta just plain does not deserve HOTY if she cannot handle a schedule facing males on a semi-regular basis...considering Quality Road does not even have that option and must always run against open company!!!!

I hope Quality Road wins HOTY because he will deserve it if he has the season I think he will have. He could lose one or two races, then win the BCC, and it will STILL have been a great year. Why? Cause he was facing open company the whole year!! Great horses run in great races! Maybe Zenyatta isn't great if she can't handle open company more than once a year.

I feel pretty confident that JS is patently aware of the "abuse" he is receiving. However, many of these skeptics are those who will never be satisfied with what Z does. These guys are the ones who will always have another task for her, because even though she may run in races that fit certain criteria, if she is victorious, there will be some sort of negative. "She won, but ..... (1) gripes about the field that turn into sure enough whining when she crosses the wire first. (2) low beyer (3) she needs to ship to every major dirt track in the country (4) low beyer (5) she didn't win by enough lengths (6) if so and so horse had been in the race, she'd have been dusted (7) if the competition isn't toting penises and/or testicles in the race, she can't be considered a great horse (8) so and so horse didn't run his race, but he'll kick her ass next time (9) she's only done it once (see BCC) (10) low beyer (11) the race set up perfectly for her (even though she's run all 16 of her races in the exact same way. For some reason, this statement makes me laugh. Doesn't take some number to know how she's going to run, but for some, it seems to be a surprise) (12) low beyer (13) all of the above.

I get it. I really do. These skeptics don't want Z to achieve these tasks. They just want to see her defeated. That would make it "all better" for the other filly's fans.

johnhannibalsmith

05-14-2010, 11:12 AM

Dahoss9698

05-14-2010, 11:20 AM

And this is of course assuming quality road keeps his gulfstream form all season long. So far he's raced once this year.

It will be interesting to see if he can hold his form. But he's run twice this year. He won the Hal's Hope and The Donn. Same amount of starts as Zenyatta.

Dahoss9698

05-14-2010, 11:27 AM

I get it. I really do.

No. You (or both of you) really don't. It's not about seeing her lose. It's about seeing a campaign where she is challenged a bit. Nothing more, nothing less. I think most of her skeptics realize what a special horse she is. We just wish her connections would grow a set and let her prove how great she is in more than 1 race a year.

joanied

05-14-2010, 11:32 AM

I feel pretty confident that JS is patently aware of the "abuse" he is receiving. However, many of these skeptics are those who will never be satisfied with what Z does. These guys are the ones who will always have another task for her, because even though she may run in races that fit certain criteria, if she is victorious, there will be some sort of negative. "She won, but ..... (1) gripes about the field that turn into sure enough whining when she crosses the wire first. (2) low beyer (3) she needs to ship to every major dirt track in the country (4) low beyer (5) she didn't win by enough lengths (6) if so and so horse had been in the race, she'd have been dusted (7) if the competition isn't toting penises and/or testicles in the race, she can't be considered a great horse (8) so and so horse didn't run his race, but he'll kick her ass next time (9) she's only done it once (see BCC) (10) low beyer (11) the race set up perfectly for her (even though she's run all 16 of her races in the exact same way. For some reason, this statement makes me laugh. Doesn't take some number to know how she's going to run, but for some, it seems to be a surprise) (12) low beyer (13) all of the above.

I get it. I really do. These skeptics don't want Z to achieve these tasks. They just want to see her defeated. That would make it "all better" for the other filly's fans.

Nikki97...ya saved me a lot of typing;) ...I agree with everthing in your post...it's an unfortunate part of life, that some folks are never satisified...they will always find something to complain about...I will never understand why some want to see Zenyatta get beat...and those that do, IMO, want it for their own satisfaction.
I also can't understand how some folks can call any race horse a tomatoe can, trash or pig...what is that? Every race horse deserves respect and admiration...from the HoY to a low claimer...they all do the same thing....run their hearts out...for us...people.

There is nothing anyone can do about whatever scheduel the connections of Zenyatta, Rachel or any other top horse, plans out...all we can do, and should do, is accept it....yes, it's hard sometimes, we all want to see these special horses run as often as possible...but I would hope that anyone involved in racing...from the barns to the grandstand, would hold these horses in high esteem and want only the best for each of them. They are all...heros.

Nikki1997

05-14-2010, 12:05 PM

No. You (or both of you) really don't. It's not about seeing her lose. It's about seeing a campaign where she is challenged a bit. Nothing more, nothing less. I think most of her skeptics realize what a special horse she is. We just wish her connections would grow a set and let her prove how great she is in more than 1 race a year.

Your opinion. Define for me what an acceptable field is, DaHoss. One where she doesn't get to the wire first? What exactly is your definition of a challenge? How many challenges do you want Z to handle before she becomes something special to you? I'd bet money that time will never come for you. No matter what the mare does.

05-14-2010, 12:18 PM

Your opinion. Define for me what an acceptable field is, DaHoss.

I'm not dahoss, but this is an easy one. How about a field of G1 male horses on dirt at 9 or 10f. Most females, even many considered great horses, have failed when attempting this feat. Nobody thinks less of them. Zenyatta hasn't even tried yet.

05-14-2010, 12:21 PM

I will also add the longer they wait, the more likely she will fail. She is getting older, and the fields will get tougher as the year advances.

Dahoss9698

05-14-2010, 12:24 PM

Your opinion. Define for me what an acceptable field is, DaHoss. One where she doesn't get to the wire first? What exactly is your definition of a challenge? How many challenges do you want Z to handle before she becomes something special to you? I'd bet money that time will never come for you. No matter what the mare does.

And you would both lose that bet. How about facing males for starters. Look, there is probably no one better at getting a horse ready for a race than John Shirreffs. But his excuses for why they are avoiding first the Foster and then the Hollywood Gold Cup were embarrassing at best.

I don't know how many times myself or anyone else needs to say we think Zenyatta is a special filly. But her connections do her legacy no justice by not challenging her. If they are going to stay in California, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect her to face males before the Breeders Cup.

Nikki1997

05-14-2010, 12:30 PM

I'm not dahoss, but this is an easy one. How about a field of G1 male horses on dirt at 9 or 10f. Most females, even many considered great horses, have failed when attempting this feat. Nobody thinks less of them. Zenyatta hasn't even tried yet.

O.K. So, who are these G1 males you speak of? My point is, such a race may begin as a field of G1 male horses and after the race, depending on who wins, how high the beyer is, how many lengths the win was by, will probably be demoted to Gr2 or Gr3, depending on who bet how much on whom.

05-14-2010, 12:33 PM

O.K. So, who are these G1 males you speak of? My point is, such a race may begin as a field of G1 male horses and after the race, depending on who wins, how high the beyer is, how many lengths the win was by, will probably be demoted to Gr2 or Gr3, depending on who bet how much on whom.

First off, unless a race surface is changed (off the turf, for example) gradings cannot be changed. We can't ask more than for Shirreffs to enter. All horses would eligible to compete, and I'm sure a nice cast would show up. Even if they didn't show, at least he tried. The connections would be off the hook.

Grits

05-14-2010, 12:35 PM

O.K. So, who are these G1 males you speak of? My point is, such a race may begin as a field of G1 male horses and after the race, depending on who wins, how high the beyer is, how many lengths the win was by, will probably be demoted to Gr2 or Gr3, depending on who bet how much on whom.

How many race's gradings are bumped downward each year due to the scenario that you are describing?

EDIT: Sorry Cj, didn't see your reply before posting my question.

Hedevar

05-14-2010, 01:28 PM

Maybe it would be prudent to wait till the year is over before complaining about Zenyatta's campaign .
The Mosses are committed to the BCC and are well aware that repeating last year's schedule will not cut it .

She has already won one G1 on dirt in which Rachel was expected to participate but did not .

Can you at least wait and see where she goes next ???

As far as being a six year old mare, this has zero to do with her facing males . This smacks of sexism--geldings like Forego and Kelso were in their prime then ..

As a late bloomer and slow, awkward developer, she has less wear and tear on her than an average horse of either sex her age .

Chronological age and physical and mental age are not as black and white as many think .

In other disciplines, six is considered quite young for a horse ...

Maybe if we let some rangy, awkward two year olds of several lines forego the rich stakes for twos and threes, they would be racing longer .

That said, bone loading at a young age has been proved clinically beneficial if it is done properly .

Last year the Mosses said they would do something different, and they did, but only once .

Not enough.

They made their goal for this year clear and said it again . Whatever they do may not be enough to suit some, and as a Zenyatta fan, I would like to see a resonable amount of dirt racing against males as well .

Where are all the demands for Rachel facing males or even getting into the gate for her next race ???

One or both of you are already on record as being in favor of "a reasonable amount of dirt racing against males."

letswastemoney

05-14-2010, 04:54 PM

Any G2, G3 male race will be tougher than the cupcakes Zenyatta defeated at Oaklawn and Santa Anita this year!!!

Hedevar

05-14-2010, 05:16 PM

Thanks CJ

classhandicapper

05-14-2010, 06:51 PM

And why do you think this is so? Would it be, perhaps, because she was a three-year-old last year, and the most important three-year-old races occur in the spring and summer? Never mind the BCC was never (not once) on the table for RA.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have ourselves a winner.

Obviously they had entirely different schedules because they had different goals and opportunities.

However, I never said that Rachel ducked anyone. I said she was finished at the end of the year because of her tough schedule and that campaign may be contributing to why she has been off her best form so far this year.

The point being that the BREEDER's CUP CLASSIC was always Zenyatta's primary goal last year. So to run her into the ground like Rachel when you are trying to peak in October or November would have been borderline retarded. That's why it was a light and spaced campaign.

The same is true for BOTH horses this year because they are both supposedly aiming for the Classic.

If either one of them takes on colts in a series of tough races on the way to the Classic the way some would like to see they would most likely be toast by the end of the year.

The idea is to have a handful of well spaced races with some limited traveling when it makes sense to hold them together until the fall.

classhandicapper

05-14-2010, 07:01 PM

I love how racing 5 or 6 times a year is suddenly racing a horse ragged. If you are only going to race 5 times, shouldn't at least 4 of them be challenging?

CJ,

With all due respect it depends on what the goal is.

If the goal is to maximize earnings power and pile up Grade 1s most top horses can have a more demanding campaign than 5-6 races a year as long as they get a break somewhere in between.

If the goal is to be 100% for a specific Breeder's Cup race then starting early in the year, shipping often, racing frequently, or taking on tough fields regularly is a sure fire way to minimize your chances of even making the race let alone peaking or winning it.

If Rachel's connections give her as tough a campaign as they did last year on the way to this year's Breeder's Cup (supposedly her goal this year also), I'll lose all respect for the competency of her handlers. That's not the way to peak in November. They should give her 4-6 well spaced races and stay with the fillies unless another soft spot opens up against colts where they could win a lot of money.

ghostyapper

05-14-2010, 07:07 PM

First off, unless a race surface is changed (off the turf, for example) gradings cannot be changed. We can't ask more than for Shirreffs to enter. All horses would eligible to compete, and I'm sure a nice cast would show up. Even if they didn't show, at least he tried. The connections would be off the hook.

I'm pretty sure nikki meant it would be treated as a G2 or G3 by the doubters, not that the actual grade of the race would change.

Judging by the reaction from the Apple Blossom I doubt her beating a weak field of G1 males (like the 09 woodward) would do anything for the doubters. They'd only want more after that.

Her connections tried to get a showdown in the apple blossom but we've heard every excuse in the book on why she didn't prove anything in the race and the field was terrible, and that it was her connections fault.

I'd love to see her face males or even more travel east before the bc but remember they are still pointing towards the bc. You all talk like they are not.

ghostyapper

05-14-2010, 07:11 PM

How many race's gradings are bumped downward each year due to the scenario that you are describing?

The Apple Blossom was bumped down from a G1 to a 75k ungraded stakes race in the paceadvantage world.

05-14-2010, 07:11 PM

CJ,
If the goal is to maximize earnings power and pile up Grade 1s most top horses can have a more demanding campaign than 5-6 races a year as long as they get a break somewhere in between.

If that is the goal, it is a big part of why racing pretty much sucks most weekends these days.

classhandicapper

05-14-2010, 07:14 PM

I'm pretty sure nikki meant it would be treated as a G2 or G3 by the doubters, not that the actual grade of the race would change.

Judging by the reaction from the Apple Blossom I doubt her beating a weak field of G1 males (like the 09 woodward) would do anything for the doubters. They'd only want more after that.

Her connections tried to get a showdown in the apple blossom but we've heard every excuse in the book on why she didn't prove anything in the race and the field was terrible, and that it was her connections fault.

I'd love to see her face males or even more travel east before the bc but remember they are still pointing towards the bc. You all talk like they are not.

I agree.

The fact of the matter is that AB was a very weak field. I think few of Zenyatta's supporters are going to make the case that she beat a Grade 1 field on dirt that day. She didn't. It was more like a Grade 3 field. She has plenty more to prove on dirt. But even if she fails it proves nothing about her quality on synth where she beat Grade 1 older males whose turf form translated very well to synthetic and a few whose dirt form translated well when the figures are adjusted properly.

At the same time you can't complain that they didn't try to find a tough field. The AB has routinely been a high caliber Grade 1 race for older mares and it was well known she was going there. That no one showed up is not their fault.

DeanT

05-14-2010, 07:15 PM

They'd only want more after that.

That's a cool point and it was echoed in a trade magazine up here. Someone in an article on this subject said after you chase and beat someone, there is always another that people want you to face, and so on. I think we see it with her - first she had to face Rachel (which she tried), then all of a sudden QR won big, so people want her to race him then. Then two months later she has to beat Rail Trip. If someone wins the Stephen Foster with a huge number, she will then be told she has to beat him.

These things come. She'll meet some of these horses, if not in a race before, at the BC. I dont think they should be seeking out horses whenever they win a race and run a number, chasing them half way around the country, just because someone writes something on a blog or DRF. It's a quick way to ruin a horse, imo.

Hedevar

05-14-2010, 07:32 PM

It is clear to me that logic cannnot inflnuence the Zenyattards. Let her race against Grade 1 males on dirt and questions will be answered. But will Sherriffs allow that or will he continue to race against glorified overnight stakes mares. The Rockies are an impediment.

classhandicapper

05-14-2010, 07:37 PM

If that is the goal, it is a big part of why racing pretty much sucks most weekends these days.

I think you definitely can actually make the case that winning the Breeder's Cup has become so important it is contributing to the lighter race schedules that many horses have these days.

DeanT

05-14-2010, 07:41 PM

Let her race against Grade 1 males on dirt and questions will be answered.
I doubt it. If she enters and wins against a Macho Again (who I think we all know she could crush anyway), it will not be enough - she will need to beat a QR or whomever else is a hot horse.

We saw it before with her. She goes to the AB and beats Ginger Punch, yet that was only because Ginger Punch raced bad that day. According to some she could not beat Ginger Punch when she was right. She can't win, even when she wins.

She beat Gio Ponti on a surface he is clearly decent on, but it was because of the track. She beat Rip Van Winkle, the top horse alive on Timeform, but it was because he was no good that day. She was asked again to win on dirt, (because the Ginger Punch race was a farce) so she won the AB again. But this time it was because the field was bad and she won in a slow time anyway - a worthless $500k grade one. Hell, she should have stayed home instead.

Some people will set the bar, she will go over it, and they will set another bar (or find some fault with the bar she jumped over). It's like the Prell commercial in 1970, only this time with a living, breathing horse who can not, nor ever will please some people.

I enjoy her presence and her goodness for horse racing and the noise is just that, noise. The grade one race on dirt against top males will come. I hope she wins, because she is a really nice horse, and deserves it. But if she does win it, I do not expect in the least some people to accept it.

Hedevar

05-14-2010, 07:51 PM

I'm pretty sure nikki meant it would be treated as a G2 or G3 by the doubters, not that the actual grade of the race would change.

Judging by the reaction from the Apple Blossom I doubt her beating a weak field of G1 males (like the 09 woodward) would do anything for the doubters. They'd only want more after that.

Her connections tried to get a showdown in the apple blossom but we've heard every excuse in the book on why she didn't prove anything in the race and the field was terrible, and that it was her connections fault.

I'd love to see her face males or even more travel east before the bc but remember they are still pointing towards the bc. You all talk like they are not.

How do you know exactly what either Nikki meant?

Let's she her face males on the dirt instead of hearing every excuse in the book and some that have recently been invented. I didn't know the Rockies
were that tough to traverse. I may be wrong but I believe she will have to fly over the Rockies to get to Churchill. I hope it is not a scary experience.

classhandicapper

05-14-2010, 07:57 PM

The grade one race on dirt against top males will come. I hope she wins, because she is a really nice horse, and deserves it.

I'm a huge fan and I'll almost certainly bet against her that day because IMHO even the greatest mares of all time cannot beat true top Grade 1 older horses over a long route of ground unless they get really lucky.

Almost all the great fillies that took on Grade 1 colts on dirt and won found soft spots or did it against not fully mature 3YO colts.

I think it's suicidal for Zenyatta's connections to run in the Classic on dirt. IMO she'll be lucky to hit the board unless the field comes up weak or there is a pace meltdown. But it's nowhere near as ridiculous as the plans to run Rachel there. She'll almost certainly find Grade 1 speed on the front end with her and then have as many as a half dozen or more horses that are way better than Macho Again and Mine That Bird coming at her late with some extra distance to cover.

And to be clear, I'm not taking anything away from either of them. That's just a stupid spot.

Both would be better off looking for Grade 1 colts at Belmont, Saratoga etc... in a solid by not spectacular field. Then meet in the Ladies Classic.

5k-claim

05-14-2010, 07:57 PM

.... Enjoy her presence and her goodness for horse racing - the grade one race on dirt against top males will come.

It is the largest purse in the country.
It is on dirt.
Males are more than welcome.

Seems to me a reasonable enough race to be pointing towards.

ghostyapper

05-14-2010, 07:58 PM

Some people will set the bar, she will go over it, and they will set another bar (or find some fault with the bar she jumped over).

Don't you miss the days when her greatness was actually tied to whether she could beat rachel? Haven't heard any mention of that in months now.

Hedevar

05-14-2010, 07:58 PM

I doubt it. If she enters and wins against a Macho Again (who I think we all know she could crush anyway), it will not be enough - she will need to beat a QR or whomever else is a hot horse.

We saw it before with her. She goes to the AB and beats Ginger Punch, yet that was only because Ginger Punch raced bad that day. According to some she could not beat Ginger Punch when she was right. She can't win, even when she wins.

She beat Gio Ponti on a surface he is clearly decent on, but it was because of the track. She beat Rip Van Winkle, the top horse alive on Timeform, but it was because he was no good that day. She was asked again to win on dirt, (because the Ginger Punch race was a farce) so she won the AB again. But this time it was because the field was bad and she won in a slow time anyway - a worthless $500k grade one. Hell, she should have stayed home instead.

Some people will set the bar, she will go over it, and they will set another bar (or find some fault with the bar she jumped over). It's like the Prell commercial in 1970, only this time with a living, breathing horse who can not, nor ever will please some people.

I enjoy her presence and her goodness for horse racing and the noise is just that, noise. The grade one race on dirt against top males will come. I hope she wins, because she is a really nice horse, and deserves it. But if she does win it, I do not expect in the least some people to accept it.

Will it come before the BCC?

ghostyapper

05-14-2010, 08:01 PM

How do you know exactly what either Nikki meant?

Because I can interpret the obvious?? My apologizes that you can't :(

DeanT

05-14-2010, 08:10 PM

Will it come before the BCC?

I think they might go east one more time. That would make it three trips for 2010 (AB, and BC the other two). I know people make fun of the rockies line, but three is pushing it (imo... I have seen horses lose 50 pounds on a 16 hour ship, so it is not something you do too often if you want to have a horse to race), so who knows.

What do you think? What race would you pick?

Just a note: I want to see her race in another big one - dont get me wrong, I am a fan. I dont think I even watched two of her races last season, because they were not interesting. I did not even watch the Mother Goose last year of another horse I admire since it was a walkover..... and I was busy betting, too. I want to see her be tested a couple of times this year and I hope she gives us a thrill.

DeanT

05-14-2010, 08:20 PM

I'm a huge fan and I'll almost certainly bet against her that day because IMHO even the greatest mares of all time cannot beat true top Grade 1 older horses over a long route of ground unless they get really lucky.

Almost all the great fillies that took on Grade 1 colts on dirt and won found soft spots or did it against not fully mature 3YO colts.

I think it's suicidal for Zenyatta's connections to run in the Classic on dirt. IMO she'll be lucky to hit the board unless the field comes up weak or there is a pace meltdown. But it's nowhere near as ridiculous as the plans to run Rachel there. She'll almost certainly find Grade 1 speed on the front end with her and then have as many as a half dozen or more horses that are way better than Macho Again and Mine That Bird coming at her late with some extra distance to cover.

And to be clear, I'm not taking anything away from either of them. That's just a stupid spot.

Both would be better off looking for Grade 1 colts at Belmont, Saratoga etc... in a solid by not spectacular field. Then meet in the Ladies Classic.

That is a really neat post.

Hedevar

05-14-2010, 08:29 PM

I think they might go east one more time. That would make it three trips for 2010 (AB, and BC the other two). I know people make fun of the rockies line, but three is pushing it (imo... I have seen horses lose 50 pounds on a 16 hour ship, so it is not something you do too often if you want to have a horse to race), so who knows.

What do you think? What race would you pick?

Just a note: I want to see her race in another big one - dont get me wrong, I am a fan. I dont think I even watched two of her races last season, because they were not interesting. I did not even watch the Mother Goose last year since it was a walkover and I was busy betting, too. I want to see her be tested a couple of times this year and I hope she gives us a thrill.

Don't get me wrong I think she is a great mare. But ihere are people without experience in racing, on this board, who think she is the best ever. The simple fact is that she is not. If you asked Sherriffs he would tell you so but the constant chat gives me a migraine. The fact is on her best day she could not even warm up some of the best horses that have looked through bridles. I have given up trying to convince the Zenyyattards. I do not portend to know where she should race next. But I would like to see her against Grade 1 males on the dirt once prior to the BCC.

Cadillakin

05-14-2010, 08:38 PM

I think it's suicidal for Zenyatta's connections to run in the Classic on dirt.

That makes ZERO sense to me. 10 furlongs on Pro Ride is as tough a 10 furlongs as there is in racing... unless you want to include the heavy going in France or other European sites.

At the end of the Classic of last year.. Everybody was spent.. except for her.. She was cruising... laughing at them in that 10th furlong... They were all gasping for air, except for her...

From your statement, it seems you're suggesting she is some delicate little flower that is going to be intimidated by the sheer speed and athleticism of the boys.. HA.

DeanT

05-14-2010, 08:40 PM

who think she is the best ever.
I understand your point.

I dont pay too much attention to that, myself. Every 20 years things change (imo) so comparing them to all time greats is not too productive, imo. Modern racing (less starts, shorter careers, more worried about losing a race, horses from the TC trail chewed before August of their 3YO year, synthetic tracks) makes it all weird for me.

I look at Z for what she is - a really interesting mare (almost a throwback) who is easy on herself, shows prowess on two modern surfaces, who shows she can race more than one season at a high level. I cant compare her to the greats - I just enjoy watching her and marvel at her longevity and ability in the modern age of supertrainers and racehorses who retire and go lame far too soon.

Audioslavery

05-14-2010, 08:52 PM

Hedevar

05-14-2010, 08:55 PM

PaceAdvantage

05-14-2010, 09:14 PM

Don't you miss the days when her greatness was actually tied to whether she could beat rachel? Haven't heard any mention of that in months now.Based on her AB figure, Zenyatta would have a hard time beating Rachel right now.

I know I'm still not afraid of Zenyatta on dirt versus Rachel. Even now.

When Zenyatta proves me wrong somehow, I'll be the first to admit it...

05-14-2010, 09:28 PM

That makes ZERO sense to me. 10 furlongs on Pro Ride is as tough a 10 furlongs as there is in racing... unless you want to include the heavy going in France or other European sites.

This is because you have no understanding on how the different surfaces play. Clearly, speed horses are much, much, much harder to run down on dirt than on rubber. I'm not just talking about front running types, but those with tactical speed. But please, keep pretending that surfaces are irrelavent, and please keep betting.

ghostyapper

05-14-2010, 09:31 PM

Based on her AB figure, Zenyatta would have a hard time beating Rachel right now.

Yea and based on her figures she'd have a hard time winning the 09 bc classic, oops!!!

And you're smart enough to know your above quote is 100% bullshit

05-14-2010, 09:34 PM

Based on her AB figure, Zenyatta would have a hard time beating Rachel right now.

I know I'm still not afraid of Zenyatta on dirt versus Rachel. Even now.

When Zenyatta proves me wrong somehow, I'll be the first to admit it...

I agree, line them up on real dirt at 9f and I'd bet Rachel tomorrow. It isn't because I think she is the most likely winner, but the Zenyattards will have her 1 to 20 while Rachel will be an overlay.

Audioslavery

05-14-2010, 09:34 PM

DeanT

05-14-2010, 09:39 PM

Zenyatta would have a hard time beating Rachel right now.

Wow.

DeanT

05-14-2010, 09:42 PM

I agree, line them up on real dirt at 9f and I'd bet Rachel tomorrow. It isn't because I think she is the most likely winner, but the Zenyattards will have her 1 to 20 while Rachel will be an overlay.
What's that have to do with it? He said Zenyatta would beat Rachel now. Beat, not be a good bet because she'd be 30-1. I'd bet Devil May Care at 30-1 against Zenyatta too, even though they dont breathe the same air.

05-14-2010, 09:43 PM

That's because our KD winner of the last 3 years has really been a testament to that!

Mine That Bird
Super Saver
Street Sense

Yep, at a distance it looks like those speed horses really handle CD dirt surface. :lol:

Not to mention that MtB nearly caught Rachel in the Preakness...
Nothing is sure in horse racing.

I didn't realize the Derby was a normal race with an normal pace and fully mature horses. Thanks for filling me in though. (Not to mention Super Saver had plenty of tactical speed, as did Mine that Bird)

bisket

05-14-2010, 09:53 PM

Hedevar

05-14-2010, 09:56 PM

What is good about this board is that it has people of varying levels of experience and knowledge. What is frustrating is that it has people of varying levels of experience and knowledge.

bisket

05-14-2010, 09:57 PM

I didn't realize the Derby was a normal race with an normal pace and fully mature horses. Thanks for filling me in though. (Not to mention Super Saver had plenty of tactical speed, as did Mine that Bird)
yes mine that bird displayed tactical speed, but not in the three triple crown races. he was a dead closer in all three. which by the way was his better races. so this statement is very misleading. yes its true, but its also false in respect to the point your attempting to make.

bisket

05-14-2010, 09:58 PM

What is good about this board is that it has people of varying levels of experience and knowledge. What is frustrating is that it has people of varying levels of experience and knowledge.
yeah when you gonna get a clue

05-14-2010, 10:01 PM

yes mine that bird displayed tactical speed, but not in the three triple crown races. he was a dead closer in all three. which by the way was his better races. so this statement is very misleading. yes its true, but its also false in respect to the point your attempting to make.

The only point I'm trying to make is horses with tactical speed do better on dirt than they do on used tires. Dead closers do worse on dirt than they do on chopped up wire insulation.

Of course this doesn't mean that frontrunners can't win on unmelted wax and closers can't win on dirt.

PaceAdvantage

05-14-2010, 10:13 PM

Wow.Wow WHAT? Seriously.

Tell me all the great things Zenyatta has done ON DIRT?

GINGER PUNCH two years ago...great...terrific...

Last race on dirt? SLOW AS MOLASSES.

I don't care if she was out jogging. That was was SLOW, SLOW, SLOW, SLOW, SLOW. And she didn't just win by a head or a neck, she won by open lengths...so she didn't "just run to the level of her competition."

And that's why I say, ON DIRT, I still think Rachel can beat Zenyatta RIGHT NOW. You have nothing to convince me otherwise.

It's not as if Rachel has been running up the track...she's been right there at the end of both her races. And both times she ran faster than Zenyatta ran in that slow Apple Blossom.

When Zenyatta proves me wrong (by either actually beating Rachel or by beating a Grade 1 field of males on dirt), I will be the first to post I was wrong.

PaceAdvantage

05-14-2010, 10:15 PM

What's that have to do with it? He said Zenyatta would beat Rachel now. Beat, not be a good bet because she'd be 30-1. I'd bet Devil May Care at 30-1 against Zenyatta too, even though they dont breathe the same air.CJ doesn't bet on horses with no chance at winning...give him a "WOW" too while you're at it...

Dahoss9698

05-14-2010, 10:16 PM

WinterTriangle

05-14-2010, 10:16 PM

the Zenyattards

Zenyattatards

What is with the language guys?

In origination, it’s a shortened form of retard. When I was teaching it was used by poorly raised or mean-spirited students to refer to other students in my my classes who had learning disabilities or were in special education.

Used toward any individual, if I heard it, they were yanked out of class and (to use one of hedevar’s cliches), quicker than you could look thru a bridle.

Using "tard" to refer to any individual is something I feel should be discouraged on this board. Given it’s origination. Actually, it should be discouraged generally.

It has no place in adult conversation in any professional or social settings I’m in…….any more than the "n" word does. I realize this may be too politically correct for some people, but think about it won’t you?

Maybe ya’ll can find a word-ending that behooves the level of people posting here. Make it as insulting as you like, but please----- find another word.

Thanks!

DeanT

05-14-2010, 10:23 PM

Wow WHAT? Seriously.

Tell me all the great things Zenyatta has done ON DIRT?

GINGER PUNCH two years ago...great...terrific...

Last race on dirt? SLOW AS MOLASSES.

I don't care if she was out jogging. That was was SLOW, SLOW, SLOW, SLOW, SLOW. And she didn't just win by a head or a neck, she won by open lengths...so she didn't "just run to the level of her competition."

And that's why I say, ON DIRT, I still think Rachel can beat Zenyatta RIGHT NOW. You have nothing to convince me otherwise.

It's not as if Rachel has been running up the track...she's been right there at the end of both her races. And both times she ran faster than Zenyatta ran in that slow Apple Blossom.

When Zenyatta proves me wrong (by either actually beating Rachel or by beating a Grade 1 field of males on dirt), I will be the first to post I was wrong.

That has nothing to do with it. It was a bizarre post.

I wont convince you, I do not have to. All you have to do, should this race go off - lets make it a match race - is go to Betfair. If you hit the buy button on Rachel at even money against Zenyatta, collectively 3 million betfair customers would be trying to book it. When interviewed after, all three million of them would be convinced you hit the wrong button.

There is no handicapper, with any talent, who would think Rachel could beat Z tomorrow the way she came back so far. I know you are a good handicapper, so I am now convinced that you have a serious issue with this mare. All common sense has been thrown right out the window when you speak of her.

When I handicapped the BC last year I made Zenyatta an 8-1 fair odds choice and I lost a fair amount of money. I was wrong; she was clearly better than that. I I learned from my mistake and began to give her some credit. Imo, you have to as well because bizarre statements like the above make you look like a hater, and we cant handicap properly with that characteristic.

ghostyapper

05-14-2010, 10:24 PM

It's not as if Rachel has been running up the track...she's been right there at the end of both her races. And both times she ran faster than Zenyatta ran in that slow Apple Blossom.

You can sugercoat it all you want but the fact is she's lost 2 stretch duels to 2 horses you wouldn't give the time of day to had they been running 2nd to Zenyatta. Just look at how ginger punch and Life is sweet is treated by the drones.

But I am glad to see that are still waving the flag strong in the burning building. I kind of miss how no one even compares the 2 anymore, they just try and compare Zenyatta to male horses from 30 years ago to downgrade her.

Any idea on where we'll see the princess next? Since she's run better than zenyatta this year in your eyes and you expect zenyatta to face males, does that mean we should expect to see rachel against males next?

Hedevar

05-14-2010, 10:27 PM

zen is gonna run terrific at churchill, and she there isn't a older horse around that frightens me when it come to her. i know in the past a mare running against older horses would normally be a tall order, but two things make this a little different. the quality of older horses is a laugh, and zen loves the longer distances. one thing that i think assists her in running against males is she's not running with the other horses. she's either behind them or in front of them. it makes it tougher for the males to intimidate her.

As Zenyatta has never run against males on dirt, how do you know she will run "terrific" at Churchill? If Zenyatta is either behind horses or in front of horses does she not have to be among horses while racing from behind to in front of horses thus negating your theory?

PaceAdvantage

05-14-2010, 10:38 PM

That has nothing to do with it. It was a bizarre post.It wasn't bizarre at all. Zenyata's best number on dirt is a 105, is it not? A 105 and a 95.

Rachel, now the glorified claimer according to ghostyapper, ran a 103 last time out...

Until the two actually meet, I have to go on objective criteria for my handicapping. Part of that objective handicapping involves figures.

I'll bet Rachel every single time on dirt against Zenyatta. Even right now, given Rachel's less than stellar return.

Your post to CJ was the bizarre post in this thread. I think CJ's post took you by surprise, as you did not expect him to come anywhere close to agreeing with me (not that he did, but I doubt you expected anything near what he posted):What's that have to do with it? He said Zenyatta would beat Rachel now. Beat, not be a good bet because she'd be 30-1. I'd bet Devil May Care at 30-1 against Zenyatta too, even though they dont breathe the same air.CJ clearly doesn't believe Rachel would be anywhere near 30-1 against Zenyatta. Yet he believes she would be an overlay, meaning, HER CHANCES OF WINNING are greater than her odds...

Not much different than what I said. We both obviously believe she CAN win...this gives you pause for some reason...causes you to label me bizarre and someone with "serious issues" with Zenyatta, as if she mowed down my first born in some freak training accident.

How many times do I have to post that I want to see Zenyatta win every race (unless it's against Rachel) before you stop analyzing me like this?

classhandicapper

05-14-2010, 10:40 PM

That makes ZERO sense to me. 10 furlongs on Pro Ride is as tough a 10 furlongs as there is in racing... unless you want to include the heavy going in France or other European sites.

At the end of the Classic of last year.. Everybody was spent.. except for her.. She was cruising... laughing at them in that 10th furlong... They were all gasping for air, except for her...

From your statement, it seems you're suggesting she is some delicate little flower that is going to be intimidated by the sheer speed and athleticism of the boys.. HA.

I think the race developments on each surface tend to be different and different talents tend to excel.

Great fillies have tended to do well in Grade 1 races against older males on turf in Europe and here (and Zenyatta did it on synthetic last year).

They have also done well in sprints.

However, a few top fillies tried the Classic and got trounced and from time to time over the years they tried other elite Grade 1s like the Pacific Classic (when it was dirt) and others and they always came up short. That's why they avoid those races. :lol:

I think the very best true Grade 1 older dirt horses are simply outside the range of even the all time great fillies regardless of running style etc... In fact, I think the speed fillies (like Rachel) are worse off because they have to get involved with the Grade 1 pace.

Fillies can beat weaker Grade 1 fields or 3YOs they are ahead of development wise in spring/summer, but not the very best older males.

DeanT

05-14-2010, 10:46 PM

Yet he believes she would be an overlay, meaning, HER CHANCES OF WINNING are greater than her odds...

Not much different than what I said.

Wow.

You said Rachel would beat Zenyatta, therefore her fair odds in a two horse race is even money. You would bet her at even money, because she would be the most likely winner.

CJ said this:

line them up on real dirt at 9f and I'd bet Rachel tomorrow. It isn't because I think she is the most likely winner......

He would not bet her at even money, because he believes she would "not be the most likely winner", Zenyatta would. If he posted that he would bet Rachel at even, he would lose customers for his figs, because people would wonder if he's lost his mind. You said the exact opposite as he said; there is absolutely nothing similar in your posts.

If you want to talk about fair odds on a race between the two tomorrow in a full field (Steve A would lose his mind at that because he would be wondering who in the hell entered her, but let's just say this played out in bizarro world) I believe both would be overbet. The Z fans who see 16 for 16 would bet too much on her, and the Rachel fans would be hammering, hoping that she finds last years form in a lightning in a bottle scenario. Bet someone else.

PaceAdvantage

05-14-2010, 10:50 PM

Wow.

You said Rachel would beat Zenyatta, therefore her fair odds in a two horse race is even money. You would bet her at even money, because she would be the most likely winner.Who ever said anything about a match race? But if we are talking match race, you're honestly going to sit there and tell me that today, if they lined up Zenyatta and Rachel in a two horse match race on dirt, you honestly believe Zenyatta would win more often than Rachel.

Wow indeed.

DeanT

05-14-2010, 10:55 PM

Who ever said anything about a match race? But if we are talking match race, you're honestly going to sit there and tell me that today, if they lined up Zenyatta and Rachel in a two horse match race on dirt, you honestly believe Zenyatta would win more often than Rachel.

Wow indeed.
The match race was to simplify fair odds and chances of winning. You could use both of them at 8-5 if you want to illustrate.

Anyway, if they are in the same race next time and you want to bet Rachel against Z with both at the same odds, please call. Ill book it and we'll save takeout.

ghostyapper

05-14-2010, 10:56 PM

Rachel, now the glorified claimer according to ghostyapper, ran a 103 last time out...

And I'm the one who exaggerates?

Cadillakin

05-14-2010, 11:05 PM

I think the race developments on each surface tend to be different and different talents tend to excel.

Great fillies have tended to do well in Grade 1 races against older males on turf in Europe and here (and Zenyatta did it on synthetic last year).

They have also done well in sprints.

However, a few top fillies tried the Classic and got trounced and from time to time over the years they tried other elite Grade 1s like the Pacific Classic (when it was dirt) and others and they always came up badly short.

We can stop right there.. We are not talking about fillies in general.. what this one or that one may have done in the past when matched against males.. etc..We are talking about Zenyatta.

If you were teaching a class on handicapping and wanting to give insight to your students.. as to advantages or disadvantages that certain classes of runners may have against others of different gender or age, yes, that kind of discussion may have some value. But we are not talking generalities here. We are discussing Zenyatta going up against specific males, at 10 furlongs, in the year of 2010.

So, if you want to suggest that Quality Road or Rail Trip will have an inherent advantage over her because of their gender or what may have happened to Ladies Secret or Gamely, or whomever, 20 or 40 years ago.. go for it.. But if you do.. I'm sure to reply that the history of others, IMO, is irrelevant as it regards this particular set of horses.. in this particular time..

05-14-2010, 11:13 PM

Those that don't learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

ghostyapper

05-14-2010, 11:23 PM

Those that don't learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

You're talking about you and pace using those speed figures to evaluate Zenyatta again here right? 95 is slow just like 97 was too slow to win the classic :lol:

Dahoss9698

05-14-2010, 11:26 PM

What is with the language guys?

In origination, it’s a shortened form of retard. When I was teaching it was used by poorly raised or mean-spirited students to refer to other students in my my classes who had learning disabilities or were in special education.

Used toward any individual, if I heard it, they were yanked out of class and (to use one of hedevar’s cliches), quicker than you could look thru a bridle.

Using "tard" to refer to any individual is something I feel should be discouraged on this board. Given it’s origination. Actually, it should be discouraged generally.

It has no place in adult conversation in any professional or social settings I’m in…….any more than the "n" word does. I realize this may be too politically correct for some people, but think about it won’t you?

Maybe ya’ll can find a word-ending that behooves the level of people posting here. Make it as insulting as you like, but please----- find another word.

Thanks!

I agree. Whoever came up with the phrase must be a real piece of work.

05-14-2010, 11:28 PM

A quick check of my site would have showed you she had dominating figures on synthetics heading into the Classic last year. I thought she was an underlay for other reasons, not figures.

Hedevar

05-14-2010, 11:37 PM

05-14-2010, 11:39 PM

There has to be a good way to combine Zenyatta and zealots.

classhandicapper

05-14-2010, 11:44 PM

We can stop right there.. We are not talking about fillies in general.. what this one or that one may have done in the past when matched against males.. etc..We are talking about Zenyatta.

If you were teaching a class on handicapping and wanting to give insight to your students.. as to advantages or disadvantages that certain classes of runners may have against others of different gender or age, yes, that kind of discussion may have some value. But we are not talking generalities here. We are discussing Zenyatta going up against specific males, at 10 furlongs, in the year of 2010.

So, if you want to suggest that Quality Road or Rail Trip will have an inherent advantage over her because of their gender or what may have happened to Ladies Secret or Gamely, or whomever, 20 or 40 years ago.. go for it.. But if you do.. I'm sure to reply that the history of others, IMO, is irrelevant as it regards this particular set of horses.. in this particular time..

It may be that the history is not some random occurrence. It may have something to do with the genders and their average innate abilities.

The very best fillies have tended to be able to sprint against the best Grade 1 older males on dirt and run 12 furlongs on turf with them. (they also beat 2YOs, and 3YOs in spring and summer, but that's another issue)

That's two extremes that have one thing in common.

The thing that wins is turn of foot.

In sprints it's often early speed and on turf races it's often late speed, but it's still turn of foot.

It seems the very best fillies have almost as much turn of foot as the best males. So a truly great filly can certainly be better than an average group of Grade 1 males in that type of race.

In elite Grade 1 10 furlong dirt races like the BC, the pace and race development tends to be demanding from start to finish and draw on very deep reserves that are not tapped in turf races and sprints. Most times it's an entirely different animal than the typical turf/synthetic route.

Some of the fillies that tried that kind of competition looked like they fit OK, but failed badly. The history is not so good. It may be random, but it may indicate on average they don't have as deep a set of reserves.

I understand your point about having to look at specific horses.

However, I'd still bet against her because I don't think anyone can measure what I am talking about until a horse is finally exposed to that kind of demanding race. And if I am right about the innate difference between male and female horses on average, then a truly great female will still tend to come up short against an elite Grade 1 field of males like in the BC.

Obviously, I'd have to see the field. If the race fell apart because of injuries or because the horses are simply weak etc... then it won't be an elite Grade 1 field. If the race looked a lot like the field Ghostzapper beat, then I'd make her 20-1.

Grits

05-14-2010, 11:46 PM

PA had a real good one . . . . Zenyattabots.

And there's her nemesis . . . . maybe, Rachelites.

Each not to difficult to remember either.:lol:

Grits

05-14-2010, 11:49 PM

There has to be a good way to combine Zenyatta and zealots.

Or we could go with . . . . . . Zenzealots

This is a good one, too.

05-14-2010, 11:56 PM

Zealattas?

johnhannibalsmith

05-15-2010, 01:54 AM

Californians?

Cadillakin

05-15-2010, 11:56 AM

I understand your point about having to look at specific horses.

However, I'd still bet against her because I don't think anyone can measure what I am talking about until a horse is finally exposed to that kind of demanding race. And if I am right about the innate difference between male and female horses on average
There you go again.. Same stuff.. "On average" What does that have to do with Zenyatta running against Quality Road or Rail Trip on dirt at 10 furlongs.. Are they good enough to beat her, or are you expecting Ghostzapper or Dr Fager to make an appearance this year?

No matter how they run it.. Zenyatta gallops till the 3/8ths and sprints home. (literally) Win lose or draw, she will be coming fast. The surface doesn't mean a damn thing to her. Her trainer has already stated she prefers dirt. I know the anti-Zenyatta crowd likes to pretend that that they know her better than her trainer.. Is that true of you, as well?

And finally, it doesn't matter one bit who you would bet or bet against. Stating you would bet against her without even having an opponent in mind is just idle chat. If she gets beat.. the horse who does it is going to have to love every inch of 10 furlongs.. and will also need a solid lead into the stretch, with plenty in reserve.. No pacesetters who have run fast early are going to hold Zenyatta..

There will be no finishing up the last eighth in 13 seconds against Zenyatta.. Not if they expect to win.

Cadillakin

05-15-2010, 12:04 PM

This is because you have no understanding on how the different surfaces play. Clearly, speed horses are much, much, much harder to run down on dirt than on rubber. I'm not just talking about front running types, but those with tactical speed. But please, keep pretending that surfaces are irrelavent, and please keep betting.
I put my ROI up on this forum months ago.. and you being the jealous little man that you are, suggested that it was a forgery, or I created the screen shot from Youbet that I pasted...

You want to compare our ROI's, big shot? How about you put your money where your mouth is and post yours? Let's have a little bet, shall we? Let's show the people here who really makes a profit at the races...But you aren't going to do that, are you? Because the real pretender here would be revealed.

I played the dirt tracks for a living for nearly 25 years.. In fact, I was a much better player on dirt.. How about you? Show a profit? Or do you just pretend you win and sell figures?

Dahoss9698

05-15-2010, 12:32 PM

05-15-2010, 12:43 PM

I put my ROI up on this forum months ago.. and you being the jealous little man that you are, suggested that it was a forgery, or I created the screen shot from Youbet that I pasted...

You want to compare our ROI's, big shot? How about you put your money where your mouth is and post yours? Let's have a little bet, shall we? Let's show the people here who really makes a profit at the races...But you aren't going to do that, are you? Because the real pretender here would be revealed.

I played the dirt tracks for a living for nearly 25 years.. In fact, I was a much better player on dirt.. How about you? Show a profit? Or do you just pretend you win and sell figures?

I'm not jealous at all. I'm glad you bet. I think you just have a problem that everyone here just doesn't buy your bs like they do at that Delmar asylum.

I have shown a profit for the last seven years which has probably put me in the black for life, though I didn't keep records until about 10 years ago when I started to take the game seriously.

I post my records for the IRS to see in my tax forms. Until you work for them, you will have to take my word for it. As a computer quasi-expert, I know I can post screen shots here to make them say I made a hundred grand or lost a hundred grand. Anybody knows this can be done.

Sorry to see I struck a nerve. "jealous little man"...I wish. This after getting the "Listen man" and "pig headed" comments from gm10. I'm not sure how I'll be able to rest at night.

bisket

05-15-2010, 01:20 PM

As Zenyatta has never run against males on dirt, how do you know she will run "terrific" at Churchill? If Zenyatta is either behind horses or in front of horses does she not have to be among horses while racing from behind to in front of horses thus negating your theory?
because i know.

Dahoss9698

05-15-2010, 01:24 PM

because i know.

I've definitely changed my stance now.

Hedevar

05-15-2010, 04:38 PM

because i know.

Oh.

PaceAdvantage

05-17-2010, 04:07 AM

And the hits keep on coming... :lol:

Hedevar

05-17-2010, 07:06 AM

Zenyattians gone wild.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 09:21 AM

I'm glad all even money shots are guaranteed to win out there on cushion at Hollywood Park against supposed nobody's, it's so easy...yeah just one thing, someone forgot to give the memo to Baffert and Wynning Ride.

05-17-2010, 09:23 AM

I'm glad all 4-5 shots are guaranteed to win out there on cushion at Hollywood Park against supposed nobody's, it's so easy...yeah just one thing, someone forgot to give the memo to Baffert and Wynning Ride.

How about 1 to 5 shots?

Oh, and how has that wonderful horse she nosed out in her first race this year done subsequently?

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 09:26 AM

How about 1 to 5 shots?

I had to go back to check the final odds, thus the edit due to Wynning Ride being 3-5 and 4-5 for the most but ballooning to an huge overlay of even money when the gates opened. ;)

05-17-2010, 09:28 AM

I had to go back to check the final odds, thus the edit due to Wynning Ride being 3-5 and 4-5 for the most but ballooning to an huge overlay of even money when the gates opened. ;)

My point is there is a big difference between 4 to 5 and 1 to 5, which is what Zenyatta will be, or lower of course.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 09:32 AM

Oh, and how has that wonderful horse she nosed out in her first race this year done subsequently?

Madel? I'm confused, the chart says she won by 2 1/4, I know you are very sharp CJ, so maybe I'm just a little slow today or I missed it. I'll pick up the posting as I wake up this morning.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 09:37 AM

My point is there is a big difference between 4 to 5 and 1 to 5, which is what Zenyatta will be, or lower of course.

Yeah I know that, however it still isn't a given when one horse is supposedly much superior to always run well enough to beat another supposedly inferior horse. Some horses peak and run above their norms but this is rarely discussed or enough credit is given due to these abnormalities.

05-17-2010, 09:57 AM

Madel? I'm confused, the chart says she won by 2 1/4, I know you are very sharp CJ, so maybe I'm just a little slow today or I missed it. I'll pick up the posting as I wake up this morning.

Yeah, it wasn't a nose, but she hasn't run very well. I'm trying to find a horse that finished 2nd or 3rd behind Zenyatta that has actually won a graded stakes race after facing her, even a G3. The last one I see is Music Note.

Grits

05-17-2010, 10:04 AM

An extraordinary mare, one that we all enjoy watching. We've been blessed to be able to see her race. Still, ZEALOTS, is a dead-on-the-money description of those who follow her every move, those who freak every time a word is said that questions anything about her career, her future races, etc, etc. At this point, one can be grateful when either she retires--or Cadillakin, and a few others move on. Whichever comes first, and one can hold on to the hope, it won't be Zenyatta.

Cadillakin wrote:
You and your buddy PA have done all you can to divide the racing community. Our sport is dying.. I just read that the poster "Dan".. I think it was DanG has left this forum for good because of the prevailing anti-synthetic diatribe. He couldn't stand it here.. All he ever wanted was to have a reasoned discussion.. That man was gentleman and elevated the level of this forum...

Now, we are left with you.. I'm out! No more posting for me.. You should be happy now.. Not many left to call you on your BS..

It pretty difficult to agree that two moderators of an online messageboard could wield the power, or the authority, to divide the racing community.

Don't believe everything you read. One can't be sure of DanG's reason for leaving this time. He has left . . . . on more than one occasion. Dan, was a gentleman as you say--though, obviously, you not being aware--he was not above getting into his own pissing matches here, as many of us have. He was cool about it. Even understated. Gentleman are usually that way.

Cadillakin, your greater desire for discussion here hasn't been so much synthetic vs dirt tracks as it has been to refute anything and everything that CJ has posted. And its been that way since just after you walked through the door and its been more than obvious.

Your ego being greater than your gift--the ability to teach. You should've stuck with your teaching. Sharing your many year's of experience in the game. One can imagine it could have done far more to bring others to it. Both the ego and the teaching, now in the rearview mirror.

You weren't so unflappable after all.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 10:08 AM

ghostyapper

05-17-2010, 10:42 AM

Yeah, it wasn't a nose, but she hasn't run very well. I'm trying to find a horse that finished 2nd or 3rd behind Zenyatta that has actually won a graded stakes race after facing her, even a G3. The last one I see is Music Note.

Life is sweet went on to win this little race known as the BC Distaff (at least it used to be). Ever heard of it?

But can't we just use the rachel excuse with macho again/bullsbay that she "broke their hearts" :lol:

FenceBored

05-17-2010, 10:46 AM

Life is sweet went on to win this little race known as the BC Distaff (at least it used to be). Ever heard of it?

But can't we just use the rachel excuse with macho again/bullsbay that she "broke their hearts" :lol:

I think the "excepting Life is Sweet" was a given, don't you?

No, looking at their pps, I think the "the field is weak as water" reasoning is more appropriate. Take Made for Magic, ... please.

05-17-2010, 11:17 AM

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 11:19 AM

Life is sweet went on to win this little race known as the BC Distaff (at least it used to be). Ever heard of it?

But can't we just use the rachel excuse with macho again/bullsbay that she "broke their hearts" :lol:

Now that you point it out, everytime Bullsbay runs or perhaps walks is more succinct if this weekend was any indication, it just makes last year's Woodward look more dreadful than even I first thought. This race is still looking for it's first winner, including Rach...Just Abysmal. This race should make grade 3 status soon if this trend continues.

the little guy

05-17-2010, 11:26 AM

Now that you point it out, everytime Bullsbay runs or perhaps walks is more succinct if this weekend was any indication, it just makes last year's Woodward look more dreadful than even I first thought. This race is still looking for it's first winner, including Rach...Just Abysmal. This race should make grade 3 status soon if this trend continues.

By this line of reasoning, Secretariat was clearly a fraud considering how poorly Sham ran in the Belmont.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 11:31 AM

By this line of reasoning, Secretariat was clearly a fraud considering how poorly Sham ran in the Belmont.

Come now, we know Sham is slightly a better horse than Bullsbay is. ;)

ghostyapper

05-17-2010, 11:32 AM

That is the horse I meant, not Music Note. Had one in my head and typed another.

Well you were right Music Note won after as well. Ginger Punch, Santa Teresita, Cocoa Beach too

ghostyapper

05-17-2010, 11:34 AM

Come now, we know Sham is slightly a better horse than Bullsbay is. ;)

The hilarious thing is he picks out your comment to respond with the weak sham comparison while ignoring whenever someone asks what Zenyatta's competition have done. So convenient :ThmbDown:

05-17-2010, 11:34 AM

Well you were right Music Note won after as well. Ginger Punch, Santa Teresita, Cocoa Beach too

Not after the last time. My point was the horses she has been beating lately, the last six races, have done nothing outside of Life Is Sweet.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 11:41 AM

ghostyapper

05-17-2010, 11:43 AM

Not after the last time. My point was the horses she has been beating lately, the last six races, have done nothing outside of Life Is Sweet.

By this line of reasoning, Secretariat was clearly a fraud considering how poorly Sham ran in the Belmont.

Does this ease your concerns? :D

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 11:48 AM

Not after the last time. My point was the horses she has been beating lately, the last six races, have done nothing outside of Life Is Sweet.

CJ, you are a bright guy, I know you are on the Rach side of the argument, however nothing compares to how ineptly the Grade 1 Woodward of last year has performed late last year and early this year. You just can't obfuscate the fact that how poorly all of these horses have performed, with the exception of Rachel, be it that she was only been competitive vs grade 2 females. That's as poignant as being hit by a brick.

ghostyapper

05-17-2010, 11:50 AM

When I get home, I am almost tempted in starting a running thread of all the horses that have run in last year's Woodward, Pass The Point, Macho Again, Bullsbay and co...I'm sure the results are worst than what is even talked about here, as far as I remember they haven't even hit the board with the exception of Rach.

As mentioned Bullsbay and Macho Again have not hit the board since

Cool Coal Man has been off the board twice and finished 3rd one other time.

Asiatic boy was a non factor in the JCGC.

Da'Tara finished last in his only stakes attempt after

It's a bird was off the board and finished 2nd in his 2 stakes

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 11:56 AM

As mentioned Bullsbay and Macho Again have not hit the board since

Cool Coal Man has been off the board twice and finished 3rd one other time.

Asiatic boy was a non factor in the JCGC.

Da'Tara finished last in his only stakes attempt after

It's a bird was off the board and finished 2nd in his 2 stakes

Other than the JCGC, just how many Grade 1's did these horses run back in? I would hate to see one win a 50K claimer and then someone coming here using this as an example by saying Bullsbay or John Doe just won a race propping up the Woodward.

05-17-2010, 11:57 AM

CJ, you are a bright guy, I know you are on the Rach side of the argument, however nothing compares to how ineptly the Grade 1 Woodward of last year has performed late last year and early this year. You just can't obfuscate the fact that how poorly all of these horses have performed, with the exception of Rachel, be it that she was only been competitive vs grade 2 females. That's as poignant as being hit by a brick.

There is no doubt those horses have stunk it up after the Woodward. They did, however, have some pretty good credentials before the race and certainly ran well that day.

Zenyatta had a similar track record early in her career. But, lately, the horses she has been beating have done nothing either before or after facing her, the BC of course excepted. Several of those had done something before the race.

The disappointing thing is we could just watch a very good horse like Zenyatta work out between races and have the same feeling as these "races" she has run in. The ones she is being run in and pointed to are extremely disappointing to all but the most ardent fans. I don't really think a horse like Rail Trip has a prayer in hell of beating Z on synthetics, but at least it would give the sport a little notoriety and a headline or two. Beating these SoCal filly and mare scrubs is a joke.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 12:06 PM

There is no doubt those horses have stunk it up after the Woodward. They did, however, have some pretty good credentials before the race and certainly ran well that day.

Zenyatta had a similar track record early in her career. But, lately, the horses she has been beating have done nothing either before or after facing her, the BC of course excepted. Several of those had done something before the race.

The disappointing thing is we could just watch a very good horse like Zenyatta work out between races and have the same feeling as these "races" she has run in. The ones she is being run in and pointed to are extremely disappointing to all but the most ardent fans. I don't really think a horse like Rail Trip has a prayer in hell of beating Z on synthetics, but at least it would give the sport a little notoriety and a headline or two. Beating these SoCal filly and mare scrubs is a joke.

You know my view on this, I don't know if a singular race in the BC will silence Z's critics, for me I would have loved to see her in the Foster, this isn't happening so I am now hoping it will be The Whitney, other than that if she is healthy and on top of her game which is not a guarantee at age 6 if she shows that she is indeed one of the greatest in the game by winning the classic on dirt, against males or perhaps she was only a synth horse as some think she is, then we will have our answer. Sure I would like to see a different campaign as last year, and shipping twice is a start as she will almost assuredly do this yr, if she ships 3 times this year will this be enough? As for me poking fun at the Woodward, I am having fun with this, don't mean to rub it in too much, however it is such an easy target I just couldn't resist.

ghostyapper

05-17-2010, 12:09 PM

The disappointing thing is we could just watch a very good horse like Zenyatta work out between races and have the same feeling as these "races" she has run in. The ones she is being run in and pointed to are extremely disappointing to all but the most ardent fans. I don't really think a horse like Rail Trip has a prayer in hell of beating Z on synthetics, but at least it would give the sport a little notoriety and a headline or two. Beating these SoCal filly and mare scrubs is a joke.

I'd much rather see her come east and run in a race like the Personal Ensign than face males in the Gold Cup. We both agree she'd probably be odds on to beat any horse regardless of sex on synthetic.

But you need to acknowledge that the Apple Blossom was a proper spot to place her in. Everyone seems to be lumping that race in with all her other socal races but they shouldn't. It's a prestigious race on the east coast, they announced months in advance they would run and no one showed (there was supposed to be a little showdown if you recall). Do not use the field that showed up as evidence it was a weak spot and they shouldn't have run her there.

Now if she were to come east for the Personal Ensign and no one showed will you blame sheriffs for not tackling males?

And all this while we need to remember they are still pointing her towards the bc classic. It's a race against males, on dirt, and on the east coast. It's the most ambitious spot possible for a mare, especially a "synthetic specialst" from the west coast.

05-17-2010, 12:15 PM

I'd much rather see her come east and run in a race like the Personal Ensign than face males in the Gold Cup. We both agree she'd probably be odds on to beat any horse regardless of sex on synthetic.

But you need to acknowledge that the Apple Blossom was a proper spot to place her in. Everyone seems to be lumping that race in with all her other socal races but they shouldn't. It's a prestigious race on the east coast, they announced months in advance they would run and no one showed (there was supposed to be a little showdown if you recall). Do not use the field that showed up as evidence it was a weak spot and they shouldn't have run her there.

Now if she were to come east for the Personal Ensign and no one showed will you blame sheriffs for not tackling males?

And all this while we need to remember they are still pointing her towards the bc classic. It's a race against males, on dirt, and on the east coast. It's the most ambitious spot possible for a mare, especially a "synthetic specialst" from the west coast.

First, Arkansas is on the East Coast? Come on man, you know better than that. The Apple Blossom was never going to be a tough spot. The only reason it was considered by Rachel was because 5 million was dangled in front of her. Other than that, what decent horses were ever going to show up?

Of course the Personal Ensign will be a weak spot in case Rachel shows up. Things change and maybe some other contenders will emerge, but something tells me if they do she won't run. That has been the MO of the connections all along. Even the BC Classic was an afterthought once Sea the Stars was declared from the race.

She has had two cupcake races, and all signs appear to the third being even easier. She will only race 5 times, maybe 6 at most, and three will have been a joke. I'm not sure about you, but for me, beating nothing all year and trying to win one tough race at the end is pretty lame.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 12:26 PM

Maybe so, however anytime you spot the opposition as much as 16 - 20 lbs a race, there are no cupcake spots.

ghostyapper

05-17-2010, 12:28 PM

First, Arkansas is on the East Coast? Come on man, you know better than that. The Apple Blossom was never going to be a tough spot. The only reason it was considered by Rachel was because 5 million was dangled in front of her. Other than that, what decent horses were ever going to show up?

Of course the Personal Ensign will be a weak spot in case Rachel shows up. Things change and maybe some other contenders will emerge, but something tells me if they do she won't run. That has been the MO of the connections all along. Even the BC Classic was an afterthought once Sea the Stars was declared from the race.

She has had two cupcake races, and all signs appear to the third being even easier. She will only race 5 times, maybe 6 at most, and three will have been a joke. I'm not sure about you, but for me, beating nothing all year and trying to win one tough race at the end is pretty lame.

You're just not being fair here. In the horse racing world Arkansas is an east coast trip for a west coast horse. She shipped out for a G1 race on dirt and because no one showed (including the great zardana) it's their fault? Last year they got hell for starting zenyatta so late in the year now she runs in a G1 in april and it's because they knew no one would show up? Just can't win

ghostyapper

05-17-2010, 12:34 PM

And I do love when they throw around the "cupcake spot" term.

The reigning HOY started out with 2 cupcake spots but when she lost these same people were quick to tell us how talented the horses that beat her were. Of course since Zenyatta doesn't lose , they just dismiss them as cupcake spots

OntheRail

05-17-2010, 12:37 PM

I still have the feeling after they beat some Allowance and maybe some State Breed horses in the Vanity they retire her with 17 wins as being the all time winning streak behind Peppers Pride that is. As they will feel that is as high a mountain to climb as the Rockies. I'd love to see her at Belmont... Saratoga... or Church Hill but I don't feel it'll happen.

As for poking fun at the Woodward... Who's tagged some black type from the BC... other then Zenyatta.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 12:46 PM

As for poking fun at the Woodward... Who's tagged some black type from the BC... other then Zenyatta.

Well Colonel John and Einstein have retired, Summer Bird is hurt, Mine That Bird hasn't raced...nice to have abit of perspective.

Dahoss9698

05-17-2010, 12:56 PM

Well Colonel John and Einstein have retired, Summer Bird is hurt, Mine That Bird hasn't raced...nice to have abit of perspective.

No way you typed that last little bit with a straight face. How about the other 7? Let's face it, neither horse was beating anything special last year.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 01:03 PM

No way you typed that last little bit with a straight face. How about the other 7? Let's face it, neither horse was beating anything special last year.

I'm not 100% sure but almost 99% sure if Summer Bird or Einstein were racing this year, Arson Squad would not have won the Alysheba. I'm just guessing though... ;)

FenceBored

05-17-2010, 01:06 PM

No way you typed that last little bit with a straight face. How about the other 7? Let's face it, neither horse was beating anything special last year.

I believe he did type that with a straight face. Some people just have trouble seeing that their arguments against Rachel's less than HOF competition in 2009 apply at least as well to Zenyatta's.

Dahoss9698

05-17-2010, 01:07 PM

I'm not 100% sure but almost 99% sure if Summer Bird or Einstein were racing this year, Arson Squad would not have won the Alysheba. I'm just guessing though... ;)

Wouldn't Einstein have been in the Woodfored Reserve had he not been retired?

FenceBored

05-17-2010, 01:09 PM

I'm not 100% sure but almost 99% sure if Summer Bird or Einstein were racing this year, Arson Squad would not have won the Alysheba. I'm just guessing though... ;)

Well, if Einstein was running this year, he would have been in the G1 Woodford Reserve on Saturday going for a 3-peat, rather than the G3 Alysheba. And don't forget, he lost to Blame and Misremembered in the Clark in his after BC start.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 02:14 PM

Wouldn't Einstein have been in the Woodfored Reserve had he not been retired?

Not sure what Helen Pitts would have done, she is and was willing to run him on both (3) surfaces. We do know he was good enough to win the Clarke Hdcp at Cd to show affinity towards the surface.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 02:22 PM

Well, if Einstein was running this year, he would have been in the G1 Woodford Reserve on Saturday going for a 3-peat, rather than the G3 Alysheba. And don't forget, he lost to Blame and Misremembered in the Clark in his after BC start.

Einstein broke from the farthest post outside and was hardly disgraced a neck behind Misremembered who was a neck behind Blame. Let's put that in there too unless you do not want to flatter Einstein.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 02:27 PM

Well, if Einstein was running this year, he would have been in the G1 Woodford Reserve on Saturday going for a 3-peat, rather than the G3 Alysheba. And don't forget, he lost to Blame and Misremembered in the Clark in his after BC start.

BTW there is a big difference in running well and running up the track, I think we both know that. Thanks for making that point for me.

FenceBored

05-17-2010, 03:16 PM

BTW there is a big difference in running well and running up the track, I think we both know that. Thanks for making that point for me.

You mean like Richard's Kid and Twice Over in the DWC?

Dahoss9698

05-17-2010, 03:16 PM

Not sure what Helen Pitts would have done, she is and was willing to run him on both (3) surfaces. We do know he was good enough to win the Clarke Hdcp at Cd to show affinity towards the surface.

Come on man. A 150k race on dirt or a 500k race on turf that he had won the two prior years.

I realize it's a hypothetical, but you're smarter than this.

05-17-2010, 04:59 PM

You're just not being fair here. In the horse racing world Arkansas is an east coast trip for a west coast horse. She shipped out for a G1 race on dirt and because no one showed (including the great zardana) it's their fault? Last year they got hell for starting zenyatta so late in the year now she runs in a G1 in april and it's because they knew no one would show up? Just can't win

OK, now that is hilarious. Of course it is their fault Zardana didn't show!

bisket

05-17-2010, 05:15 PM

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 05:46 PM

You mean like Richard's Kid and Twice Over in the DWC?

If you over there over to your left, is that Bullsbay crossing the finish line in the Alysheba? Sure looks like him.. :lol:

FenceBored

05-17-2010, 05:48 PM

fact is everyone of these "scrubs" is much better than any filly running in the east. rach being the exception. careless jewel is the only filly or mare that could give zen any kind of race, and in my opinion leave rach in the dust.

This is not the case.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 05:53 PM

You mean like Richard's Kid and Twice Over in the DWC?

BTW sharpie, didn't Richard's Kid win the San Antonio before embarking to Dubai?

Futhermore if a 3 time arc runnerup could finish out of the money in the Duty Free, I think it's safe to assume your theory is a faulty one.

FenceBored

05-17-2010, 05:54 PM

If you over there over to your left, is that Bullsbay crossing the finish line in the Alysheba? Sure looks like him.. :lol:

No, I think it's Gambler's Justice, Champagne Eyes, Hot n' Dusty, and Modification rattling their tomato cans.

Dahoss9698

05-17-2010, 05:56 PM

FenceBored

05-17-2010, 06:01 PM

BTW sharpie, didn't Richard's Kid win the San Antonio before embarking to Dubai?

Futhermore if a 3 time arc runnerup could finish out of the money in the Duty Free, I think it's safe to assume your theory is a faulty one.

Of course, Richard's Kid won the G2 San Antonio on Feb. 7th. Everyone knows that. :rolleyes:

Furthermore, if you looked at the 3 time arc runnerup's pps you'd see that outside of Europe he's more likely to be off the board. Love that 10th place in HK.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 06:16 PM

What does the Duty Free have to do with anything?

This Zenyatta stuff has warped your brain man.

Try to follow the bouncing ball man, I expext you to know better I give you a little more credit than others around here, if you watched DWC it was a day with many longshots and inexplicable results. Alot of well mean't horses did not run well including Youmzain in he Sheema Classic, my mistake I always get those 2 races mixed up, it doesn't mean Richard's kid is Macho Again. As I ponted out atleast he won a race after running in the classic, something I can't say for The Woodward field, the 2nd and 3rd place finishers haven't even hit the board, you are great at spin Dahoss, I would love to hear your explanation if the Woodward was indeed a worthy gr.1 last year given how badly the horses have come out of this race.

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 06:29 PM

Of course, Richard's Kid won the G2 San Antonio on Feb. 7th. Everyone knows that. :rolleyes:

Furthermore, if you looked at the 3 time arc runnerup's pps you'd see that outside of Europe he's more likely to be off the board. Love that 10th place in HK.

You are compating Rachel's pentultimate race from last yr to Zenyatta's where facing open males is concerned.

Again to refresh your memory or anyone that says what black type has run a black type after the classic, notice the hurt, retired or unraced beside the name.

Summer Bird - hurt
Einstein - 3rd Clark - retired
Rip Vkle - unraced
Colonel John - retired
Girolamo - unraced
Awesome gem - 2nd and 3rd out of 3 races
Richards Kid - 1 win
Twice Over - 1 out of the money finish
Gio Ponti - 2nd and 4th
Mine That Bird - unraced
Quality Road - 2 wins *
Zenyatta - 2 wins

Your homework Fencedbored is to chart the results of last yrs Woodward and try to make a case it is better than the list I put together.

05-17-2010, 06:34 PM

You are compating Rachel's pentultimate race from last yr to Zenyatta's where facing open males is concerned.

Again to refresh your memory or anyone that says what black type has run a black type after the classic, notice the hurt, retired or unraced beside the name.

Summer Bird - hurt
Einstein - 3rd Clark - retired
Rip Vkle - unraced
Colonel John - retired
Girolamo - unraced
Awesome gem - 2nd and 3rd out of 3 races
Richards Kid - 1 win
Twice Over - 1 out of the money finish
Gio Ponti - 2nd and 4th
Mine That Bird - unraced
Quality Road - 2 wins *
Zenyatta - 2 wins

Your homework Fencedbored is to chart the results of last yrs Woodward and try to make a case it is better than the list I put together.

Mentioning Quality Road, even with an asterisk, is the height of being a Zealotta. You are way smarter than that,

Kimsus

05-17-2010, 06:46 PM

Mentioning Quality Road, even with an asterisk, is the height of being a Zealotta. You are way smarter than that,

Atleast no one is taking me on about my typing, you try typing with a laptop flat on your stomach lying on your back. Unforunate QR went bonkers in the starting gate, it would have been such a great stat to see him do so well this yr, that is unless anyone who truly believes he would have won the classic last yr.

FenceBored

05-17-2010, 07:12 PM

You are compating Rachel's pentultimate race from last yr to Zenyatta's where facing open males is concerned.

Penultimate means next to last, not last.

Now then, what you are tacitly admitting by your focus on the Classic is that the distaff races Zenyatta ran in last year were weak as water.* None of Zen's distaff opponents* won a graded stakes in 2009, and only one has done so in 2010 (via a field of graded stakes maidens). As this thread morphed into debating whether Zenyatta should face males or females in the runup to the BC, that is a telling admission. If horseracing were a tournament, you'd want her to have a bye into the finals. How unsporting.

* except for Life is Sweet.

Dahoss9698

05-17-2010, 07:31 PM

Try to follow the bouncing ball man, I expext you to know better I give you a little more credit than others around here, if you watched DWC it was a day with many longshots and inexplicable results. Alot of well mean't horses did not run well including Youmzain in he Sheema Classic, my mistake I always get those 2 races mixed up, it doesn't mean Richard's kid is Macho Again. As I ponted out atleast he won a race after running in the classic, something I can't say for The Woodward field, the 2nd and 3rd place finishers haven't even hit the board, you are great at spin Dahoss, I would love to hear your explanation if the Woodward was indeed a worthy gr.1 last year given how badly the horses have come out of this race.

How many times would you like to have this conversation? The first 10 or so didn't do it enough justice? My thoughts on the Woodward are all over this board. Going in it had the winners of the Stephan Foster and Whitney and a bunch of other stakes. I'm not going to waste anymore time running down the list because it doesn't matter.

Neither Zenyatta or Rachel Alexandra were beating any stars last year. Your extreme bias against anything and everything Rachel Alexandra doesn't change that.

I actually give you a little more credit than the other Zenyattatards because before the triple crown last year you were a pretty knowledgable poster. We've agreed and disagreed about stuff, but since Rachel came along you have become as bad as The Fat Man. If something disagrees with your agenda you ignore it. You want honest opinions about Rachel, but refuse to give one about your messiah.

It's a tired act.

ghostyapper

05-17-2010, 07:32 PM

OK, now that is hilarious. Of course it is their fault Zardana didn't show!

Well you got me there, I guess you can blame them for that. I know she was hyped like crazy after her lone dirt win this year. One famed poster even suggested that they skipped the Apple Blossom because they feared she'd beat zenyatta. :lol:

Then came the La Troienne....oops

Whats next? They're ducking Unrivaled Belle? :lol:

Dahoss9698

05-17-2010, 07:34 PM

1651 and counting. Another poster that disappears after his lame agenda is refuted.

letswastemoney

05-17-2010, 08:42 PM

I may not agree with their ways, but nice to see a picture of the Mosses enjoying Zenyatta train.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Female_pair.jpg

breezing

05-17-2010, 08:52 PM

Zenyatta (6-Year-Old Mare)

Date: May 17, 2010
Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK
Distance: Six Furlongs
Time: 1.13:20 Breezing
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: All Weather Track
Rank: 1/12 -

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 10:10 AM

How many times would you like to have this conversation? The first 10 or so didn't do it enough justice? My thoughts on the Woodward are all over this board. Going in it had the winners of the Stephan Foster and Whitney and a bunch of other stakes. I'm not going to waste anymore time running down the list because it doesn't matter.

Neither Zenyatta or Rachel Alexandra were beating any stars last year. Your extreme bias against anything and everything Rachel Alexandra doesn't change that.

I actually give you a little more credit than the other Zenyattatards because before the triple crown last year you were a pretty knowledgable poster. We've agreed and disagreed about stuff, but since Rachel came along you have become as bad as The Fat Man. If something disagrees with your agenda you ignore it. You want honest opinions about Rachel, but refuse to give one about your messiah.

It's a tired act.

Obviously it isn't a tired act because people are still talking about this, even taking me out of the equation. You mention my extreme bias when yes indeed all I am pointing out is Rachel's propped up win in the Woodward and her 2 susbsequent losses this year to illustrate she was overrated by some last year. Defute or add Zenyatta to the conversation as you like doing, it doesn't change the fact that no horse has won since coming out of the Woodward, infact no horse has even run well, nor has Rachel distinguished herself this year, this is all that should matter in the conversation. Not all this other stuff you like bringing up.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 10:21 AM

You want honest opinions about Rachel, but refuse to give one about your messiah.

It's a tired act.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on Zenyatta, I may disagree and on some occasions have even agreed I would loved to have seen her in the Foster or the Whitney. Don't know what you are smoking to think I ever did to refuse a honest opinion on her. This is a discussion forum, that's what we do here!

FenceBored

05-18-2010, 10:44 AM

Obviously it isn't a tired act because people are still talking about this, even taking me out of the equation. You mention my extreme bias when yes indeed all I am pointing out is Rachel's propped up win in the Woodward and her 2 susbsequent losses this year to illustrate she was overrated by some last year. Defute or add Zenyatta to the conversation as you like doing, it doesn't change the fact that no horse has won since coming out of the Woodward, infact no horse has even run well, nor has Rachel distinguished herself this year, this is all that should matter in the conversation. Not all this other stuff you like bringing up.

The thread title is ZENYATTA & the Dodgers. In this case, the people deflecting would be the ones who keep bringing up the Woodward to cover the weakness of Zen's schedule.

Dahoss9698

05-18-2010, 12:56 PM

it doesn't change the fact that no horse has won since coming out of the Woodward, infact no horse has even run well

It's not a fact. Cool Coal Man has won a race. Past The Point was second, beaten a half length in the Bold Ruler and second, beaten 3/4's in the Mr Prospector. It's A Bird was second in a restricted stake at Calder.

So as of right now, horses coming out of the Woodward have won the same amount of races as those coming out of the Classic correct? I realize Zenyatta has won two races, so if you count her they have won 3 races. Wow.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 01:11 PM

Dahoss9698

05-18-2010, 01:27 PM

It's the relatively the same? Zenyatta has won 2 grade 1's and Richard's Kid wins a Grade 2? Plus as I pointed out yesterday when 1/2 the field in the classic are either hurt, haven't raced or are retired that they haven't had a chance to race the 6 or 7 times Bullsbay and Macho Again have since the Woodward. Yep it's a perfectly logical comparison.

Summer Bird - hurt
Einstein - 3rd Clark - retired
Rip Vkle - unraced
Colonel John - retired
Girolamo - unraced
Mine That Bird - unraced

You said it was a fact no one has won or run well since. It's not a fact. I didn't say it was relatively the same. But boy, the hypocrisy meter just exploded. Yesterday you questioned the Woodward as a grade 1. Did you see the "grade 1" fields Zenyatta has faced this year? How about that stellar field Richard's Kid beat? Oh....I forgot, we aren't allowed to dissect any field that has to do with Zenyatta.

Keep spinning.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 01:31 PM

This seems to be alright with you when a certain horse beats a 2 other horses in a supposed gr.1? What's the difference when you ask yourself to be impartial?

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 01:33 PM

BTW I don't rate the races, 2 grade 1's and a grade 2 thus far in limited tries with half the field unraced/hurt/retired from the classic. What has the 2nd and 3rd place finisher done after exiting the Woodward Dahoss, please answer for us.

Dahoss9698

05-18-2010, 01:36 PM

This seems to be alright with you when a certain horse beats a 2 other horses in a supposed gr.1? What's the difference when you ask yourself to be impartial?

I don't even know what you are saying here. Maybe all of the spinning has made you dizzy. Just once I'd like to see you actually address a point.

In your opinion were the fields Zenyatta beat this year grade 1 quality? Also, were you incorrect in your "facts" that no one has won or run well coming out of the Woodward?

I don't expect an answer.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 01:41 PM

I don't even know what you are saying here. Maybe all of the spinning has made you dizzy. Just once I'd like to see you actually address a point.

In your opinion were the fields Zenyatta beat this year grade 1 quality? Also, were you incorrect in your "facts" that no one has won or run well coming out of the Woodward?

I don't expect an answer.

The Mother Goose was a grade 1 that you probably count and it featured a total all of 3 horses. You knew that, you just wanted to avoid the question.

FenceBored

05-18-2010, 01:41 PM

BTW I don't rate the races...

Clearly not, or Zenyatta's maiden win would retroactively delcared a super duper G1++. :lol:

FenceBored

05-18-2010, 01:45 PM

The Mother Goose was a grade 1 that you probably count and it featured a total all of 3 horses. You knew that, you just wanted to avoid the question.

So, there were more 2009 graded winners in that race than in any of Zenyatta's distaff races last year. :eek:

Dahoss9698

05-18-2010, 01:46 PM

The Mother Goose was a grade 1 that you probably count and it featured a total all of 3 horses. You knew that, you just wanted to avoid the question.

I've answered enough questions. When you answer my post I will respond to yours.

I'll repeat it. In Zenyatta's two "grade 1" wins this year, in your opinion was she facing grade 1 quality fields? Also, were you incorrect with your "facts" about the Woodward.

Cardus

05-18-2010, 01:48 PM

I've answered enough questions. When you answer my post I will respond to yours.

I'll repeat it. In Zenyatta's two "grade 1" wins this year, in your opinion was she facing grade 1 quality fields? Also, were you incorrect with your "facts" about the Woodward.

This is my favorite post in the thread, for now that it is on a new page, I do not have to use the scroll bar to read each thread on the preceding page.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 02:11 PM

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 02:14 PM

So, there were more 2009 graded winners in that race than in any of Zenyatta's distaff races last year. :eek:
Let me ask you this, how many races has Rachel won this year? I know this should be an easy answer but somehow you will mention Zenyatta in your answer thus not answering at all.

Dahoss9698

05-18-2010, 02:56 PM

No you simply avoided answering. Again..

See how hard it is for you to honestly assess Zenyatta for you? What's the point of having the discussion at all?

Of course the fields she has faced this year are not grade 1 fields. But you can't say it. It doesn't diminish what she has done. It's being honest about who she has beat. I think I've been pretty honest when you have asked me about Rachel this year. I am under no delusions that she has performed in her first two races this year like she went out last year.

But I ask a simple question and you cannot answer it. The whole thing is amusing.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 03:17 PM

See how hard it is for you to honestly assess Zenyatta for you? What's the point of having the discussion at all?

Of course the fields she has faced this year are not grade 1 fields. But you can't say it. It doesn't diminish what she has done. It's being honest about who she has beat. I think I've been pretty honest when you have asked me about Rachel this year. I am under no delusions that she has performed in her first two races this year like she went out last year.

But I ask a simple question and you cannot answer it. The whole thing is amusing.

I never inferred her competition this year was as tough as the competition she faced in the BC Classic. If this is what you want me to admit? If so I never said or inferred it was. Anyone can see this, they are grade 1's in which I placed side by side with last year's Mother Goose, for which you were confused about when I mentioned it. I also painstakenly tried to point out is comparing last year's Classic to last year's Woodward fields would be folly, which you shrugged off by pointing out to me Cool Coal M won a allowance race.

Dahoss9698

05-18-2010, 03:40 PM

I never inferred her competition this year was as tough as the competition she faced in the BC Classic. If this is what you want me to admit? If so I never said or inferred it was. Anyone can see this, they are grade 1's in which I placed side by side with last year's Mother Goose, for which you were confused about when I mentioned it. I also painstakenly tried to point out is comparing last year's Classic to last year's Woodward fields would be folly, which you shrugged off by pointing out to me Cool Coal M won a allowance race.

The "play stupid" routine is a nice twist on this. Let's backtrack. You said it was a FACT no horse had won since running in the Woodward. You also said it was a FACT no horse had run well since running in the race. Neither were actually facts. I presented you with FACTS that showed you were incorrect.

Then I brought up it was hypocritical of you to question the Woodward being a grade 1, and then say that Zenyatta had won two grade 1's this year. You want to dissect the Woodward, but ignore the "grade 1's" Zenyatta ran in.

I asked if in your opinion the two grade 1's that Zenyatta has won this year were in fact grade 1 fields. meaning was the competition grade 1 quality. You have yet to give an answer to it. I also asked if you were incorrect in what you thought of as a fact considering the Woodward. You avoided that also.

Simple stuff. No need to twist or dodge.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 04:36 PM

The "play stupid" routine is a nice twist on this. Let's backtrack. You said it was a FACT no horse had won since running in the Woodward. You also said it was a FACT no horse had run well since running in the race. Neither were actually facts. I presented you with FACTS that showed you were incorrect.

Then I brought up it was hypocritical of you to question the Woodward being a grade 1, and then say that Zenyatta had won two grade 1's this year. You want to dissect the Woodward, but ignore the "grade 1's" Zenyatta ran in.

I asked if in your opinion the two grade 1's that Zenyatta has won this year were in fact grade 1 fields. meaning was the competition grade 1 quality. You have yet to give an answer to it. I also asked if you were incorrect in what you thought of as a fact considering the Woodward. You avoided that also.

Simple stuff. No need to twist or dodge.

I'm tired of the Semantics with you, you sure have a history with posters with your attitude.

Back to the only argument that matters and not your typical MO of misdirection, because as fun as it is, it is tiring...I want you to read VERY carefully, up until the classic 2009 you may have had a point with Zenyatta, though after that she faced arguably the toughest open field in 2009, she then had a prep to race in the Apple Blossom where it was to face anyone that wanted to line up against her, including Rachel. Those are the facts, only one horse ducked that race, it is not Zenyatta's fault she got cold feet, so in your world of dreams Dahoss since the classic in 2009 and not the past as Zenyatta will is also scheduled to try the classic on DIRT this fall SHIPPING east, just who has been hiding from the competition more post BC 2009?

Dahoss9698

05-18-2010, 04:54 PM

I'm tired of the Semantics with you, you sure have a history with posters with your attitude.

Back to the only argument that matters and not your typical MO of misdirection, because as fun as it is, it is tiring...I want you to read VERY carefully, up until the classic 2009 you may have had a point with Zenyatta, though after that she faced arguably the toughest open field in 2009, she then had a prep to race in the Apple Blossom where it was to face anyone that wanted to line up against her, including Rachel. Those are the facts, only one horse ducked that race, it is not Zenyatta's fault she got cold feet, so in your world of dreams Dahoss since the classic in 2009 and not the past as Zenyatta will is also scheduled to try the classic on DIRT this fall SHIPPING east, just who has been hiding from the competition more post BC 2009?

Classic deflection. Instead of addressing the subject at hand, first you try and discredit what I am saying because of my attitude. Then you predictably avoid admitting you were incorrect. Hard to do huh?

Then, instead of addressing the subject (the fields Zenyatta has defeated this year) you go back to the Zenyattatard crutch "Rachel got cold feet".

I realize you don't like when your bullshit is called out (you aren't alone here) but you make it way too easy.

Hedevar

05-18-2010, 05:07 PM

Dahoss,

Good thing those two posters came along in a timely manner to make the use of Zenyattatard appropriate again.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 05:13 PM

Classic deflection. Instead of addressing the subject at hand, first you try and discredit what I am saying because of my attitude. Then you predictably avoid admitting you were incorrect. Hard to do huh?

Then, instead of addressing the subject (the fields Zenyatta has defeated this year) you go back to the Zenyattatard crutch "Rachel got cold feet".

I realize you don't like when your bullshit is called out (you aren't alone here) but you make it way too easy.

You are being exposed for something you love calling out other people for doing, by not addressing what I posted.

Did you notice I said up until 2009 BC that you may have had a point? Meaning I could see your point and may even had agreed with you regarding Zenyatta campaigns. When I injected some semblance of logic into the discussion by mentioning post BC Classic, prep and then AB just who was ducking, you failed to answer, especially when it was clear Rachel was doing all the ducking. Point made.

I'll ask you one more thing, how many races would you expect Quality Road to run in this year? I keep hearing Zenyatta should race in the Foster, followed by the Whitney and even the JCGC then to top it off in the BC Classic. Just how many horses have done this? If Quality Road is hands down the top male in training this year, why hasn't anyone held him up to scrutiny of Zenyatta, for the record I haven't because I am a realist when it comes to racing today. But for Zenyatta this doesn't ssem to apply, even with what she plans to do in 2010 at CD this year.

FenceBored

05-18-2010, 05:24 PM

Let me ask you this, how many races has Rachel won this year? I know this should be an easy answer but somehow you will mention Zenyatta in your answer thus not answering at all.

Zero.

DeanT

05-18-2010, 05:25 PM

I am a realist when it comes to racing today.

Salient point. We keep hearing who raced against who and who beat who after. Newsflash - it's 2010 and judging horses like that is crazy.

Who has I Want Revenge beat since the Wood?

Maybe if Rachel or Zenyatta beat Old Fashioned that'd be nice.

Rachel beat Mine That Bird in Pimlico; great and a wonderful accomplishment. But so did Zenyatta in the Classic; but he was nowhere near as good as he was in the spring. Is anyone sitting on pins and needles hoping they meet on some dirt track somewhere tomorrow?

Eskendreya would be good to meet, on dirt, for Z to see if she can run him down. The TV ratings would be huge watching her battle a horse with a blown tendon.

Quality Road would be nice too for a meet, oops!

I just read a blog post on the Pamplemousse, cant wait til he and Z meet. Take that Z!

Gio Ponti, Bullsbay, Macho Again.... all those horses are not quite what they were last year and they are the norm not the exception. I dont know why we are focused on that.

Zenyatta has raced about 125 horses over the last three seasons, some when they were sharp, some not. All we know is out of the 125 horses she has faced, 125 were defeated. In this day and age I could care less which horse she beat came back to win a grade one, because there were a hell of a lot of horses who raced the last three seasons well at some point who are in a barn somewhere not racing, or being defeated by much worse horses now. A lot of horses are a shadow of themselves due to the rigors of modern, 2010 racing, that twenty years ago would be strapping on the bridle month to month.

It amazes me to no end that a filly who has beaten every horse she has ever faced for three years while making over $6M in purses, is somehow being discredited, when a lot of good horses today can barely stay sharp, fit and sound for three starts.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 05:26 PM

Zero.

That took all of 2+ hours to come up with an answer.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 05:28 PM

Salient point. We keep hearing who raced against who and who beat who after. Newsflash - it's 2010 and judging horses like that is crazy.

Who has I Want Revenge beat since the Wood?

Maybe if Rachel or Zenyatta beat Old Fashioned that'd be nice.

Rachel beat Mine That Bird in Pimlico; great and a wonderful accomplishment. But so did Zenyatta in the Classic; but he was nowhere near as good as he was in the spring. Is anyone sitting on pins and needles hoping they meet on some dirt track somewhere tomorrow?

Eskendreya would be good to meet, on dirt, for Z to see if she can run him down. The TV ratings would be huge watching her battle a horse with a blown tendon.

Quality Road would be nice too for a meet, oops!

I just read a blog post on the Pamplemousse, cant wait til he and Z meet. Take that Z!

Gio Ponti, Bullsbay, Macho Again.... all those horses are not quite what they were last year and they are the norm not the exception. I dont know why we are focused on that.

Zenyatta has raced about 125 horses over the last three seasons, some when they were sharp, some not. All we know is out of the 125 horses she has faced, 125 were defeated. In this day and age I could care less which horse she beat came back to win a grade one, because there were a hell of a lot of horses who raced the last three seasons well at some point who are in a barn somewhere not racing, or being defeated by much worse horses now. A lot of horses are a shadow of themselves due to the rigors of modern, 2010 racing, that twenty years ago would be strapping on the bridle week to week.

It amazes me to no end that a filly who has beaten every horse she has ever faced for three years is somehow being discredited, when a lot of good horses today can barely stay sharp, fit and sound for three starts.

Finally someone with an ounce reason here! Thank you! There is only so much of Rachelitis 2.0 I can deal with. It's not a fair standard is it and even the Rachelites know this.

05-18-2010, 05:28 PM

At least he stopped listing Quality Road as a horse with wins this year after being "beaten" by Zenyatta in the Classic. Progress is slow, but at least it is present.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 05:35 PM

What it does mean, and I suspect most know this was Zenyatta was willing to run against Quality Road. Another sure sign of ducking to Dahoss I guess.

05-18-2010, 05:37 PM

What it does mean, and I suspect most know this was Zenyatta was willing to run against Quality Road. Another sure sign of ducking I guess.

Wow, that is the very definition of a Zenyattard. I'm guessing you would also like to sire her first foal?

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 05:39 PM

Wow, that is the very definition of a Zenyattard. I'm guessing you would also like to sire her first foal?

I like being on the winning side x16, better that than Rachelite.

FenceBored

05-18-2010, 05:39 PM

You are being exposed for something you love calling out other people for doing, by not addressing what I posted.

The only one being exposed here is you.

Did you notice I said up until 2009 BC that you may have had a point? Meaning I could see your point and may even had agreed with you regarding Zenyatta campaigns.

Note the weasel words. Why can't you just come out and say it: "Zenyatta faced what for Grade 1 races were incredibly weak fields and I hope she gets more of the same this year leading up to the BC."

When I injected some semblance of logic into the discussion by mentioning post BC Classic, prep and then AB just who was ducking, you failed to answer, especially when it was clear Rachel was doing all the ducking. Point made.

Is Rachel the only other horse of consequence in training as far as you're concerned? Are you that obsessed with the HOY loss?

I'll ask you one more thing, how many races would you expect Quality Road to run in this year?

6-7, or 4-5 more. To wit, pick from the following: the Met mile, the Whitney, the Woodward, JCGC and Classic, Cigar mile.

[QUOTE=Kimsus] I keep hearing Zenyatta should race in the Foster, followed by the Whitney and even the JCGC then to top it off in the BC Classic. Just how many horses have done this? If Quality Road is hands down the top male in training this year, why hasn't anyone held him up to scrutiny of Zenyatta, for the record I haven't because I am a realist [ :lol: ] when it comes to racing today. But for Zenyatta this doesn't ssem to apply, even with what she plans to do in 2010 at CD this year.

Uh, I don't know, ... could it be, ... naw, couldn't be ... oh, yeah I guess it was ...

Curlin

:lol:

Curlin's 4 year old year was:

Allowance prep in Dubai (under 132 lbs.)
Dubai World Cup
Stephen Foster (under the brutal, weight of 128)
Man o' War (2nd between two BC Turf winners)
Woodward
Jockey Club Gold Cup
BC Classic
You want to say that Zenyatta was and is a better horse than Curlin, then it's time for her to step up and prove it.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 05:41 PM

The only one being exposed here is you.

Note the weasel words. Why can't you just come out and say it: "Zenyatta faced what for Grade 1 races were incredibly weak fields and I hope she gets more of the same this year leading up to the BC."

Is Rachel the only other horse of consequence in training as far as you're concerned? Are you that obsessed with the HOY loss?

[QUOTE=Kimsus]I'll ask you one more thing, how many races would you expect Quality Road to run in this year?

6-7, or 4-5 more. To wit, pick from the following: the Met mile, the Whitney, the Woodward, JCGC and Classic, Cigar mile.

Uh, I don't know, ... could it be, ... naw, couldn't be ... oh, yeah I guess it was ...

Curlin

:lol:

Curlin's 4 year old year was:

Allowance prep in Dubai (under 132 lbs.)
Dubai World Cup
Stephen Foster (under the brutal, weight of 128)
Man o' War (2nd between two BC Turf winners)
Woodward
Jockey Club Gold Cup
BC Classic
You want to say that Zenyatta was and is a better horse than Curlin, then it's time for her to step up and prove it.

Please don't respond to me unless you have some new MO, I just can't read your crap anymore. It's never original or interesting.

FenceBored

05-18-2010, 05:41 PM

That took all of 2+ hours to come up with an answer.

Here's a clue free of charge: I don't spend every minute of the day waiting for your questions to answer, I answered it when I saw it.

bisket

05-18-2010, 05:41 PM

Wow, that is the very definition of a Zenyattard. I'm guessing you would also like to sire her first foal?
just wanna know. does zenyatta have a shot at winning the classic this year. if not who right now is better than her. make a statement backing up all the manure being spewed in her direction.

05-18-2010, 05:45 PM

just wanna know. does zenyatta have a shot at winning the classic this year. if not who right now is better than her. make a statement backing up all the manure being spewed in her direction.

It is a long way away. Does she have a shot? Of course, if she makes it into the gate. But it won't be anything like any of the other races she has run in. A shot yes, likely no. Which horses? I have no idea at this time. I've already said at 10f on dirt a healthy Summer Bird will beat her. Quality Road would beat her too on his best day, but he is inconsistent. I'm sure a few three year olds will also step up, and a return to form by Rachel would make her tough. Of all those, she would be least likely to beat her in a field of males though.

FenceBored

05-18-2010, 05:52 PM

Please don't respond to me unless you have some new MO, I just can't read your crap anymore. It's never original or interesting.

How was that not fresh and exciting? You ask who's faced the 'brutal, can't be replicated' SF, Whitney (or Woodward), JCGC, BC gauntlet and I give you the last horse to do it.

What, you want another? Uh, Saint Liam (SF, Whit, Woodward, BC). Gee, what do those two have in common? Oh yeah, they actually won HOY.

Lawyer Ron did a different schtick, Oaklawn (about the same time as the Apple Blossom), Met, Salvator Mile, Whitney (set ntr), Woodward, JCGC, BC. Losing the last two to Curlin cost him HOY, but he still pulled in the Older Male Championship.

DeanT

05-18-2010, 05:54 PM

just wanna know. does zenyatta have a shot at winning the classic this year. if not who right now is better than her. make a statement backing up all the manure being spewed in her direction.

As Cj alluded to in his post - Summer Bird is a great horse who at his best should beat her (imo), but he is coming off a hairline fracture. So is QR, but what are the chances he makes the gate? Eskie is long gone, SS looks to need a break. Lookin at Lucky looks sound, but who knows. Not too many early three year olds are good in the fall. Rachel? I doubt it the way she started the year, and that the barn is having convulsions figuring her out.

I would not bet it, but right now Zenyatta would be the chalk, in my opinion for the BC Classic.

If someone held a gun to your head today and you had to chose one horse - just one - to win the BC with penalty of pulling that trigger if you are wrong, who would you choose? I think the answer is pretty obvious; and it is why she's a damn good mare.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 05:59 PM

How was that not fresh and exciting? You ask who's faced the 'brutal, can't be replicated' SF, Whitney (or Woodward), JCGC, BC gauntlet and I give you the last horse to do it.

What, you want another? Uh, Saint Liam (SF, Whit, Woodward, BC). Gee, what do those two have in common? Oh yeah, they actually won HOY.

Ok I stand corrected for asking a rhetorical question, you know what this is? I'm not going to check but you may be right about St. Liam, HOWEVER THE POINT is and maybe it went over your head, ya know Zenyatta's a 6 yr old mare, regardless how many races did Ghostzapper, Candy Ride, Medaglia D'oro ect...run in their campaigns in their final year of racing? Thus I pointed out Quality Road, how many races would you expect him to run this year? You get it?

FenceBored

05-18-2010, 06:09 PM

Ok I stand corrected I'm not going to check but you may be right about St. Liam, HOWEVER THE POINT is and maybe it went over your head, ya know Zenyatta's a 6 yr old mare,

:eek: You don't say. Why didn't anyone tell us? That changes everything ... not.

regardless how many races did Ghostzapper [1], Candy Ride [3], Medaglia D'oro [2] ect...run in their campaigns in their final year of racing? Thus I pointed out Quality Road, how many races would you expect him to run this year? You get it?

So, because Zenyatta is a 6 yr old mare, you think she should get to face recent AOC gals in G1 races and have it be thought of that she faced the stiffest distaff competition in the country (bisket's perspective)? Riiiigghht. :rolleyes:

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 06:12 PM

:eek: You don't say. Why didn't anyone tell us? That changes everything ... not.

So, because Zenyatta is a 6 yr old mare, you think she should get to face recent AOC gals in G1 races and have it be thought of that she faced the stiffest distaff competition in the country (bisket's perspective)? Riiiigghht. :rolleyes:

I edited my reply, do you know what a rhetorical question is? Blogging with you is like slow and painful, torture.

Dahoss9698

05-18-2010, 06:17 PM

You are being exposed for something you love calling out other people for doing, by not addressing what I posted.

Did you notice I said up until 2009 BC that you may have had a point? Meaning I could see your point and may even had agreed with you regarding Zenyatta campaigns. When I injected some semblance of logic into the discussion by mentioning post BC Classic, prep and then AB just who was ducking, you failed to answer, especially when it was clear Rachel was doing all the ducking. Point made.

I'll ask you one more thing, how many races would you expect Quality Road to run in this year? I keep hearing Zenyatta should race in the Foster, followed by the Whitney and even the JCGC then to top it off in the BC Classic. Just how many horses have done this? If Quality Road is hands down the top male in training this year, why hasn't anyone held him up to scrutiny of Zenyatta, for the record I haven't because I am a realist when it comes to racing today. But for Zenyatta this doesn't ssem to apply, even with what she plans to do in 2010 at CD this year.

No, I like to deal with what we are discussing, then move on to something else. You like avoiding anything that deals with Zenyatta not being the best thing since sliced bread. This is where we differ. Instead of dealing with it, you want to twist it around. Not happening.

You also like to make stuff up (your last paragraph in this post) as it suits your multi board agenda. You still refuse to admit you were wrong and cannot admit Zenyatta has beat bad fields this year. The races were grade 1 in name only.

I'd be more than willing to discuss anything you'd like in regards to Rachel, but I'm not going to be honest unless you are willing to. I think I've been pretty reasonable as it concerns Rachel this year. You even commended me on it.

The thing that you and Dean and whoever else likes to ignore reality continues to miss is there is nothing wrong with honestly discussing these fields. A realist would have no problem doing this.

FenceBored

05-18-2010, 06:22 PM

I edited my reply, do you know what a rhetorical question is? Blogging with you is like slow and painful, torture.

Well, it's a good thing we're not blogging then, isn't it?

(We're posting on a message board thread. ;) )

DeanT

05-18-2010, 06:36 PM

The thing that you and Dean and whoever else likes to ignore reality

Dont slide that in some post like that.

I am not ignoring anything. My posts on the subject give props to RA for her awesome campaign last year (one of the best ever for a filly, imo) and racing perhaps the most thrilling and jaw dropping race that I have seen in a long time in the Woodward.

But unlike yourself and some others, I do not ignore the fact that Zenyatta also raced in a thrilling race in a marvelous performance in beating males and everyone in the BC. She also has put together a streak of races that no horse has at a high level today, because most are dusted in the barn after racing at said high level.

I give props to Rachel for beating Bullsbay and Macho Again last year because they were good last year when they raced and she beat them off stiff splits. I dont have to see Zenyatta beat those same two horses this year, because a) I don't care because beating them will not tell me she is a good horse, anyone with eyes already knows that and b) they are not the same horses they were last year anyway.

I'm sorry if that does not fit your reality, but maybe your reality is the problem, not mine.

Dahoss9698

05-18-2010, 07:12 PM

Dont slide that in some post like that.

I am not ignoring anything. My posts on the subject give props to RA for her awesome campaign last year (one of the best ever for a filly, imo) and racing perhaps the most thrilling and jaw dropping race that I have seen in a long time in the Woodward.

But unlike yourself and some others, I do not ignore the fact that Zenyatta also raced in a thrilling race in a marvelous performance in beating males and everyone in the BC. She also has put together a streak of races that no horse has at a high level today, because most are dusted in the barn after racing at said high level.

I give props to Rachel for beating Bullsbay and Macho Again last year because they were good last year when they raced and she beat them off stiff splits. I dont have to see Zenyatta beat those same two horses this year, because a) I don't care because beating them will not tell me she is a good horse, anyone with eyes already knows that and b) they are not the same horses they were last year anyway.

I'm sorry if that does not fit your reality, but maybe your reality is the problem, not mine.

I've yet to read anyone that has questioned Zenyatta's competition, at the very least not said she is a very good filly. The fact she has been able to sustain her form is a testament to her talent and her trainer.

But, if Rachel is going to be dissected it's only fair to do it to Zenyatta. That is all I was trying to do here.

After last night's discussion, I agree. Your reality does not fit mine.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 07:15 PM

No, I like to deal with what we are discussing, then move on to something else. You like avoiding anything that deals with Zenyatta not being the best thing since sliced bread. This is where we differ. Instead of dealing with it, you want to twist it around. Not happening.

You also like to make stuff up (your last paragraph in this post) as it suits your multi board agenda. You still refuse to admit you were wrong and cannot admit Zenyatta has beat bad fields this year. The races were grade 1 in name only.

I'd be more than willing to discuss anything you'd like in regards to Rachel, but I'm not going to be honest unless you are willing to. I think I've been pretty reasonable as it concerns Rachel this year. You even commended me on it.

The thing that you and Dean and whoever else likes to ignore reality continues to miss is there is nothing wrong with honestly discussing these fields. A realist would have no problem doing this.

If you and I were to be completely honest with each other, had Rachel made the Apple blossom and lost there would still be some that questioned that field Zenyatta beat. You and I know this if we are being honest with each other, there would be assertions she wasn’t ready, fit, or herself. We know this from the little credit she got from winning the apple blossom when Brownie Points is often mentioned and that Ginger Punch not running her race. We know this when people discredit her race in the classic, for of all things Richard’s Kid not winning the DWC, because it is not on dirt. You and I know the reasons. It doesn’t matter who she faces, she will never will get credit for beating a good field. Short of running a 120 beyer and beating Quality Road, someone and I am not necessarily referring it’s you, will be there to say it wasn’t a 121 beyer or the race was a perfect set up, so if she didn’t face the toughest field in the Apple Blossom this year, it isn’t her fault and if she did, I’m sure some will be happy to point out Rachel wasn’t at her best, or Careless Jewel was coming off a layoff, you and I know this if we are being honest with ourselves. It doesn't matter who she faces, it certainly hasn't to date. But that's being honest.

DeanT

05-18-2010, 07:33 PM

I've yet to read anyone that has questioned Zenyatta's competition, at the very least not said she is a very good filly. The fact she has been able to sustain her form is a testament to her talent and her trainer.

But, if Rachel is going to be dissected it's only fair to do it to Zenyatta. That is all I was trying to do here.

After last night's discussion, I agree. Your reality does not fit mine.

Well please, then do not include me in a post about 'reality' when I have never questioned who Rachel raced.

When someone says firing an exercise rider who handles a $10M horse smells, and another person says it is hunky dory, that is two people sharing their opinion, and has nothing to do with "realities" in some cosmic sense. There is no need to go ad hominem by disagreeing on one tangential item, which has nothing to do with the other.

Dahoss9698

05-18-2010, 08:16 PM

If you and I were to be completely honest with each other, had Rachel made the Apple blossom and lost there would still be some that questioned that field Zenyatta beat. You and I know this if we are being honest with each other, there would be assertions she wasn’t ready, fit, or herself. We know this from the little credit she got from winning the apple blossom when Brownie Points is often mentioned and that Ginger Punch not running her race. We know this when people discredit her race in the classic, for of all things Richard’s Kid not winning the DWC, because it is not on dirt. You and I know the reasons. It doesn’t matter who she faces, she will never will get credit for beating a good field. Short of running a 120 beyer and beating Quality Road, someone and I am not necessarily referring it’s you, will be there to say it wasn’t a 121 beyer or the race was a perfect set up, so if she didn’t face the toughest field in the Apple Blossom this year, it isn’t her fault and if she did, I’m sure some will be happy to point out Rachel wasn’t at her best, or Careless Jewel was coming off a layoff, you and I know this if we are being honest with ourselves. It doesn't matter who she faces, it certainly hasn't to date. But that's being honest.

I don't agree with much of this, but whatever. It doesn't change anything. You still refuse to address what I am talking about.

You can whine about how she isn't getting her due, but it's just not true. You can trot out all of the hypothetical scenarios where you feel she wouldn't have gotten her due. I prefer to deal in what is or has already happened.

When you want to sack up and have a real discussion let me know. The bullshit will continue to get called out though.

Dahoss9698

05-18-2010, 08:20 PM

Well please, then do not include me in a post about 'reality' when I have never questioned who Rachel raced.

When someone says firing an exercise rider who handles a $10M horse smells, and another person says it is hunky dory, that is two people sharing their opinion, and has nothing to do with "realities" in some cosmic sense. There is no need to go ad hominem by disagreeing on one tangential item, which has nothing to do with the other.

Please. No explanation about what happened with Terry will ever be good enough for you. You have made that much clear. That and other discussions lead me to believe that your reality is different than mine. Sometimes we might agree, but for the most part we view things differently.

It's cool.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 08:38 PM

When you want to sack up and have a real discussion let me know. The bullshit will continue to get called out though.

As I will call out the bullshit you post, fair enough. It may not been said aloud, but it certainly is inferred. Especially when a well known person here said if Zenyatta runs to her beyer in the AB she would have a hard time beating Rachel right now, a horse that is having trouble winning a race this year. You should know this, you've been posting in the same thread, but I guess you conveniently missed that post.

Whatever.

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698
I've yet to read anyone that has questioned Zenyatta's competition, at the very least not said she is a very good filly.

Dahoss9698

05-18-2010, 08:46 PM

As I will call out the bullshit you post, fair enough. It may not been said aloud, but it certainly is inferred. Especially when a well known person here said if Zenyatta runs to her beyer in the AB she would have a hard time beating Rachel right now, a horse that is having trouble winning a race this year. You should know this, you've been posting in the same thread, but I guess you conveniently missed that post.

Whatever.

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698
I've yet to read anyone that has questioned Zenyatta's competition, at the very least not said she is a very good filly.

Dude, if you have an issue with whoever this mysery person is, address it. I'm not going to do your work for you.

A simple "yeah I was wrong" would have moved the thread along hours ago. You couldn't even do that, so maybe I'm the idiot for expecting you to be able to have an unbiased discussion.

Kimsus

05-18-2010, 08:52 PM

Dude, if you have an issue with whoever this mysery person is, address it. I'm not going to do your work for you.

A simple "yeah I was wrong" would have moved the thread along hours ago. You couldn't even do that, so maybe I'm the idiot for expecting you to be able to have an unbiased discussion.

Dude, you would love that, nope you are not getting off so easy. But I suspect you read that quote yet for your self serving reasons chose to ignore it, it's in this very thread you dig it up, then what you said here will be again be proven wrong.
Originally Posted by Dahoss9698
I've yet to read anyone that has questioned Zenyatta's competition, at the very least not said she is a very good filly.
Today 08:20 PM