Good old fashioned horsemanship

[Marc At DRF]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/48342.html

[Tuffmug]

What good did the drug do? Horse finished fourth! Gill needs better drugs <G>!

[andicap]

I guess the drug wasn't strong enough! :)

Hey, just because you dull the pain doesn't mean the horse can run fast. Give me all the morphine you want and I'm still really slow.

[Shacopate]

Marc at DRF,

I think the DRF has improved a great deal since Crist took over. Not trying to put you on the spot, but would it be possible to add the "rails out" distance in terms of feet for turf races?

Just a suggestion.

[Marc At DRF]

This info is in results charts (PDF on the site, or in print).

It can't be in the PPs because there isn't room. And it can't be in race conditions for "today's race" necause the info isn't available far enough in advance.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Marc At DRF
http://www.drf.com/news/article/48342.html

Marc....

I'm curious? Why did you post about this? Gary Contessa had 8 dirty Urines. Some were on tickets too....not 4th. And I needed a Search party to find a good story on that.

Michael Gill gets a Single dirty ,Your company wrote a story, and your here posting it up .

You don't like Gill,? or you think he's a crook?

I know he's the leading money winner....But still. To me it looks like you and DRF have it in for him.

Maybe I'm wrong. Without being to confrontational... can I ask why you posted this, but nothing when Contessa had 8 dirtys a month ago?

[Marc At DRF]

I didn't post on Contessa because no one here had ever defended Contessa, at least not that I read..

There has been extensive defense by Paceadvantage members of the success rate of Gill's horses, so I thought this article was relevant to the conversation.

[GameTheory]

Being one of those "defenders", I'd like to point out that I wasn't defending him, which implies I believe he definitely did not cheat, when of course I don't know. I was just saying there are alternative explanations which are just as plausible.

But the so-called defense was provoked in the first place because it seemed like you were out to get him. Which is fine -- you may be right. Just don't pretend you have hard facts to support you. If you did, then so would the authorities and they be using those instead of these other BS excuses to keep him off the grounds of their tracks.

[Marc At DRF]

I would agree that the methods some race tracks have chosen to keep Gill off the premises are sketchy. They seem to be acknowledging their testing cannot keep up with him... and the stopgap measures chosen to block him are ethically gray at best.

I didn't pretend I had hard facts because hard facts are things like drug positives and breakdown rates (especially at Monmouth Park). In recent weeks, these facts have become increasingly available, and it's a much better place to be coming from when pointing this stuff out than in the gray area whre many Gill critics previously resided.

Now that these facts are available, I'm curious to see what the opinions here are.

[Tuffmug]

Clocker Bob revealed that there is a TURN system in place at some tracks (ie. It's THIS owner's turn to win a race). Gill is probably stepping on toes by not abiding by the TURN system. He is also aggressively claiming (often first off layoff), stepping on toes of small trainers setting up for next out win.

Tracks refusing stall space. This has effect of preventing Gill from making claims at that track. Gill's crime is not drugs or illegal methods, it's aggressive indifference to the status quo old boy agreements between owners and trainers.

[Show Me the Wire]

Quoting Clocker Bob as an authority? Give me a break. The adverse reaction to Gill is more likely based on his claiming practice effectively decimating certain price ranges in the claiming ranks.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Suff]

From one Good source I have heard that Gill was (is) using a machine that costs about 35-40 grand. It does something internally to Muscle and Cartildge when used in a certain way.

I just heard this.

They knew he was using it in Florida and Could'nt catch him. I was told the name of the machine but I forgot already. I can find out....and I will.

Anyone heard anything about Gill using a "Machine"??

[azibuck]

Was it the Tremendous Machine?

[PaceAdvantage]

Was this the same machine trainer John Kimmel spoke out on over the winter? I wish I could recall what the name of this device was. I can't even remember exactly what it did, but I believe it had something to do with magnets (doesn't it always?)

[Suff]

Two nibbles. Let me work it. I'll see what I come up with.

The person that told me about it... went on for 10 minutes about it. I was listening. But it has left my head because I can't remember any details he told me. I'll talk to him thurs/fri and make sure I take notes.

[Show Me the Wire]

Could it have been Shock Wave Therapy (SWT)? I believe it is an expensive unit and it stimulates bone growth and tendon repair, with the side benefit of acting as a pain killer for a number of days after treatment.

SWT is used for treatment of bucked shins and bowed tendons and it possibly could be used to manage pain.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Suff]

Yup Thats it... thats exactly what he called it.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally posted by Netcapperazibuck
Was it the Tremendous Machine?

Actually, it is becuase it is possibly the only treatment to repair bowed tendons. I have seen first hand horses that were able to race only becuase of this tremondous machine.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

It is better to keep quiet and let everyone think you are stupid, than it is to open your mouth and let everybody know.

[GameTheory]

Do the other horsemen feel he has an unfair advantage because he's using a machine? Simple answer -- they should use one too.

They use those things for people too -- tennis elbow, ligament damage, spine curvature -- supposed to be great...

[Show Me the Wire]

GT:

The problem is the inappropriate use of the SWT. SWT is a healing and therapeutic tool. Using SWT to mask pain during a competitive race is akin to administering pain-killing drugs to mask pain during a competitive race. Masking pain is dangerous to the horse and the rider, the horse will not feel warning pain, and consequently the jock will not feel the horse getting “rough”, which may result in a breakdown and a spill.

Most trainers understand the dangers of masking pain and most have high enough regard for human life and the horse’s life not to improperly mask pain. The decision to mask pain through undetectable means (technology) is a moral decision tied to the user’s values.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[GameTheory]

Well, they'll never be able to test for administration of shock waves. I think detention barns are the ultimate answer to all these problems.

I don't know why an honest trainer would fear them -- everyone would be in the same boat, and horsemanship really would win out.

[Show Me the Wire]

GT:

Detention barns would not curb the use of new technology or drugs. SWT pain-killing (numbing effect )lasts for days after treatment. Additonally, new performance enhancing drugs are administered weeks before the race.

Detention barns would not prevent any trainer from using SWT or another undetecable frug. Dention barns would only serve to disrupt the pattern of already high-strung thoroughbreds on race day. I am not in favor of detention barns since theri use will not prevent the abuses people are concerned about and only cause more problems for trainers not using certain performance enhancing methods.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[GameTheory]

Originally posted by Show Me the Wire
GT:

Detention barns would not curb the use of new technology or drugs. SWT pain-killing (numbing effect )lasts for days after treatment. Additonally, new performance enhancing drugs are administered weeks before the race.

Detention barns would not prevent any trainer from using SWT or another undetecable frug. Dention barns would only serve to disrupt the pattern of already high-strung thoroughbreds on race day. I am not in favor of detention barns since theri use will not prevent the abuses people are concerned about and only cause more problems for trainers not using certain performance enhancing methods.



What do you favor?

[Show Me the Wire]

GT:

I have no solution. The solution lies within the people that choose to use technological and medical advances in uninttended ways.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Suff]

On a thread like this that veered a little

This machine.... It did'nt get alot of attention here.

I'm wondering.....is it.

I'm late to the party and this machine is well known?

No one really knows what it is per se ..as it relates to its improper use? Or Illegal use?

A guy (Gill/Shuman) tips the racing world on its head down there at gulfstream...and I'm pretty sure he was using this Machine.

Do we leave it at that?

[Show Me the Wire]

Suff:

In Illinois a horse undergoing SWT must be reported to the stewards. SWT should not be used to mask pain during a race. SWT was intended to repair bowed tendons and to stimulate bone cells to create mass.

However, it is impossible to enforce the any rules regarding the use of SWT, because SWT can be given days in advance of a race without detection.

I guess we leave it at that.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality