Any Professionals out here??

[sq764]

I was wondering the other day how dedicated and disciplines one has to be to make a living at this game.

Anyone out there a professional that could answer a few questions like:

1) How long do you typically spend on handicapping each night,

2) How many wagers do you make on an average day?

3) Once you hit your optimal profit and/or hit your maximum loss, do you always quit for the day?

4) How do you break yourself out of bad slumps? Mentally and physically?

5) How often do you think of giving it up?


Just curious, maybe to hear some reality to make me appreciate that I have a day job :-)

[lousycapper]

Originally posted by sq764
I was wondering the other day how dedicated and disciplines one has to be to make a living at this game.

Anyone out there a professional that could answer a few questions like:

1) How long do you typically spend on handicapping each night,

2) How many wagers do you make on an average day?

3) Once you hit your optimal profit and/or hit your maximum loss, do you always quit for the day?

4) How do you break yourself out of bad slumps? Mentally and physically?

5) How often do you think of giving it up?


Just curious, maybe to hear some reality to make me appreciate that I have a day job :-)

============================

Any so called professionals are probably not going to post here... they are too busy conducting their own business. Sorry!

-L.C.

[ranchwest]

If pro's were willing to answer, I believe you'd likely get a diverse set of answers. For instance, number of wagers per day. Some pro's wait for the right race, no matter how long it takes. There might be several in one day, maybe none. For some pro's, they can barely shove money out fast enough to suit their style.

[B. Comin']

SQ,

In the 17 years I've been lurking around in race books here, I've seen many self-proclaimed pro's come and go.

The ones that didn't go, and it's only been about two that I've had the privilege of being acquainted with, did not profess to be pro's, played a circuit that they developed adeptness in, did not stray from their 'venues', and yes, would 'play the nuts', sometimes for days when they did not have a play. also, they were single.

For now, I suggest that you keep your day job.:(

[kenwoodall]

I win. I play 2 systems. I prepare about 3 hours on my w/p/s system, horse-by-horse, about 20 playa per racing form, all tracks except Calder. Generally good trainer, condition, consistent, no gaps in works or races. 5 point elimination.
___________
My track speed system I prepare about 1 hour and play faster-than-normal tracks.
I check works for speed and biases. 1-10 points for fastest to slowest. Del mar the past week has been extremely fast works. Saturday was slow rail but they pushed the dirt back ok. t was running 1 and 3 for works. Todauy was a 2 and 4 of 7 dirt favs won (co-favs in 1 race, 6 races). Bets on 7 dirt favs returned $18.00.
I saw Santa Rosa's anti-rail bias in today's works.
___________

As far as I know all posters think I am full of B.S. No one has reported back after trying my system so it is just my talk!!
I will research and test any system or factors. That is how I stumbled across these.

[VetScratch]

B Comin:
In the 17 years I've been lurking around in race books here, I've seen many self-proclaimed pro's come and go.

The ones that didn't go, and it's only been about two that I've had the privilege of being acquainted with, did not profess to be pro's, played a circuit that they developed adeptness in, did not stray from their 'venues', and yes, would 'play the nuts', sometimes for days when they did not have a play. also, they were single.

Isn't there some way this answer can be automatically posted each time this same repetitious thread gets started?

[sq764]

VS, what would that standarad answer be?

It was ridiculous of me to pose a handicapping related question on this board, sorry.

I guess the low-blow, insulting posts that seem to be dominating here anymore are the ones people are interested in. No thanks.

[Valuist]

Sq-

I want to preface this by saying I'm NOT a professional handicapper. However, a lot of what I've learned is from 2 professional horse bettors back in the late 80s. Both operated in fairly similar fashion:

1. Both were from the Beyer/Davidowitz school of handicapping. They believed in speed figures (which they made themselves) but not to the point that it was the only factor.

2. They kept extremely thorough trip notes. Any notes that were missed during the post race replay was filled in from the TV results show.

3. Did key races and had extensive trainer data.

4. Both did play the Pic 6; I saw one hit the P6 for $98K at Hawthorne and the other hit a $15K at Oaklawn.

5. As for wagering strategy, the Chicago guy bet almost exclusively exotic wagers. And he spread out big time in his combos. I've seen him make 6 horse trifecta boxes and play 100 separate Pic 3 tickets. More than anything I've learned from him: don't skimp on an extra $4 or $6 worth of combinations. As for the guy at Oaklawn, at the time OP's only gimmicks was an early double and a Pic 6 (they called it Classix). Amazing to think that as recently as 15 years ago there was virtually no exotics there.

I haven't seen the OP guy in years but I've kept in touch w/the Chicago pro. He is the sharpest racing mind I've ever seen, and has managed to do what Ragozin and T-Graph have failed to do: make his own speed figures that incorporate both track bias and pace. One things for sure: neither guy got to where they are by taking short cuts.

[VetScratch]

SQ764
It was ridiculous of me to pose a handicapping related question on this board, sorry.
I guess the low-blow, insulting posts that seem to be dominating here anymore are the ones people are interested in. No thanks.
What is wrong with the proposed standard answer?
B Comin:
In the 17 years I've been lurking around in race books here, I've seen many self-proclaimed pro's come and go.
The ones that didn't go, and it's only been about two that I've had the privilege of being acquainted with, did not profess to be pro's, played a circuit that they developed adeptness in, did not stray from their 'venues', and yes, would 'play the nuts', sometimes for days when they did not have a play. also, they were single.
What more do you need to know? If only two "legits" come along every 17 years, and they won't call themselves pros, what are your chances of learning more here and now?

You can avoid "low-blow insulting posts" by staying out of the Off-Topic Forum.

[sq764]

you think there are only 2 legit professional handicappers that came along in the past 17 years? Where in the world did you get this idea?

[JustMissed]

If you haven't, you should read the article about Art Canales at the thread "Hey Formula, this guy beats the take" in the General Racing Discussion.

JustMissed

[VetScratch]

SQ764,
I'm open-minded and ready to accept new data.

After you finish the next 17-year stake-out in a busy racebook, get back to me with your findings. For now, I'll accept what was posted.

[alysheba88]

It seems if some posters had their way there would be like 25 total posts on the site. All of them theirs presumably.

Have been a disturbing amount of "why is there a post about this" stuff cropping up lately. If the thread in question is not pertitent to your situation move on to the next. Better yet start a thread yourself about what you feel is a good subject.

[rmania]

Originally posted by alysheba88 (MW)
It seems if some posters had their way there would be like 25 total posts on the site. All of them theirs presumably.
More like 250 :rolleyes:

[sq764]

VS, if you were open-minded, you might realize that there are thousands of betting parlors across the country, not just in one or 2 racebooks in las vegas.

You need to get out more.

[Jeff P]

No, I'm not currently a pro. But, I have tried it twice in my lifetime. Both times I played horses full time (profitably, I might add) for about two years. Both times I gave it up. My reasons are listed below.

The questions posed at the top of this thread struck a chord. So I'll post my answers- knowing ahead of time that I may take some flak from others on this board. So be it...

1) How long do you typically spend on handicapping each night,
A) In my case I would typically devote one to two hours the night before. That would be for a typical mid week card. For a card that really held my interest such as the Breeder's Cup, Kentucky Derby, Preakness, or Belmont- sometimes five or six hours.

2) How many wagers do you make on an average day?
A.) In my case I am always looking for value. I average two to three bets per card and usually bet win only.

3) Once you hit your optimal profit and/or hit your maximum loss, do you always quit for the day?
A.) No. If I still have plays to make later in the day I usually stick around and make them. I generally bet a percentage of bankroll. The daily swings seem irrelevant to me. I tend to measure progress by examining the bigger picture. Bankroll size at 30, 60, and 90 day intervals seems far more important to me than worrying about profit or loss for individual days. Also very important is categorizing and tracking your plays. You have to know that a certain play type is working before you can risk significant money. Anything else, to me, is sheer insanity.

4) How do you break yourself out of bad slumps? Mentally and physically?
A.) If you think you want to play full time you have to know going in that you are going to have losing streaks. And these losing streaks are going to last far longer than you would like them to. My longest personal losing streak was 57 straight plays. I had my share of bad beats, lost photos, DQs, horses that broke down or jumped the rail while leading just yards from the wire, etc. You have to accept that this is all part of the game. Don't get too emotionally attached to an individual outcome. When the next play comes up just bet your percentage of bankroll to win and take your chances. If you've done your homework you'll know going in what your hit rate, average mutuel, and longest losing streak should be. BTW, looking back at a group of 220 plays on either side of and including those 57 straight losses, and the entire group still shows a small profit.

When I played full time I generally played five days- Wednesday thru Sunday. So it was five days of work for me just like any other job. My days off were always Monday and Tuesday. I usually went camping or fishing on my days off. That usually recharged my batteries.

5) How often do you think of giving it up?
A.) Playing horses full time seemed glamorous and fun to me at first. Both times. But in reality it has to be about the loneliest full time job on earth. I'm still fairly young. I'm also still single. How many beautiful girls do you see at the track or OTB on a Wednesday? Just imagine going there five days a week.

Playing horses full time comes with other costs that aren't apparent at first. You won't have any true peers or any kind of a support system. I am a software developer by trade. The longer I played horses (and stayed out of the job market as a result) the less hireable I became to a prospective employer. That becomes real important if you ever need to go back to work. There also aren't any benefits. Anyone ever seen a dental or health plan for handicappers? Also, be prepared to pay cash if you want a new car. One of the harder things in life would have to be convincing a bank to give you a loan if you tell them you are a professional gambler. They'll just about always see you as unemployed.

If you play full time, your friends and family will all think that you've lost your mind. They all have jobs. So they think: What's wrong with him? Why doesn't he have a job? Our own sense of self worth is often deeply rooted in how we believe others perceive us.

So, for me, playing part time is the way to go. I really do enjoy betting horses - so long as I can do it for fun when I want and am not forced to do it day in and day out.

[cato]

Great post, Jeff. Thanks for the insight.


Cato

[lousycapper]

Mr. Jeff P.

What you say is mostly true... my Grampa has played the horses for a living since the end of WWII... he has never worked for anyone that I know of with the exception of the U.S. Army for 4+ years. I hope to follow in his footsteps as soon as I graduate from college in the next 4-5 years. IMHO this business is ideal, especially with the economic conditions facing us in the next several years.

-L.C.

[PaceAdvantage]

LC,

Like you say, this forum is a barrel of laughs....I just got one....where's my truss????? :eek:

[sq764]

Jeff, thanks for the post, excellent.

[Tom]

http://www.borderlandnews.com/stories/sports/todaysstories/20030722-139060.shtml