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JustRalph
05-06-2010, 11:03 AM
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local-beat/Students-Wearing-American-Flag-Shirts-Sent-Home-92945969.html

Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees
Freedom of expression or cultural disrespect on Cinco de Mayo?

On any other day at Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Daniel Galli and his four friends would not even be noticed for wearing T-shirts with the American flag. But Cinco de Mayo is not any typical day especially on a campus with a large Mexican American student population.
Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out. When they refused, the boys were ordered to go to the principal's office.
"They said we could wear it on any other day," Daniel Galli said, "but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today."
The boys said the administrators called their T-shirts "incendiary" that would lead to fights on campus.

more at the linK,,,,,,,,,,,,

including the backtrack after speaking with their lawyers.

ArlJim78
05-06-2010, 11:10 AM
I'm sure the ACLU will be all over this one.:rolleyes:

boxcar
05-06-2010, 11:13 AM
CD is just another phrase for PC. Libs are good at this stuff. They make stuff up to fit the situation -- kinda like how "global warming' has now morphed into "climate change".

Boxcar

GaryG
05-06-2010, 11:25 AM
Bulletin: The results of the Mexican War were declared invalid. All lands illegally seized from the Mrxican govt in the 1840s have now been returned. Viva Los Unidos de Mexico.

wisconsin
05-06-2010, 12:32 PM
Political correctness run amuck.

46zilzal
05-06-2010, 12:39 PM
SOMETIMES it can get you in trouble. Case in point was my friend who went to Thailand with his wife. In a crowded restaurant their son was acting up and his hands were full so he pointed his foot to direct the boy back to the table.



Seems that pointing with ones foot is a big no no there. HOW would he have known that?

Robert Goren
05-06-2010, 12:42 PM
I always wondered what the term was for my wearing orange on St. Patrick's day. Now I know.:rolleyes:

Tom
05-06-2010, 12:52 PM
If it is THEIR holiday, let them go back to THEIR country to celebrate it.
IF wearing Old Glory incites unstable people to violence, we need to address the unstable people - like banning Stinko de Mayo day altogether.

These administrators need to fired immediately.

BlueShoe
05-06-2010, 01:32 PM
Bulletin: The results of the Mexican War were declared invalid. All lands illegally seized from the Mrxican govt in the 1840s have now been returned. Viva Los Unidos de Mexico.
Bulletin: The results of the Spanish Conquest were declared invalid. All lands illegally seized from the indigenous peoples of Mexico from the 16th to the 19th centuries have now been returned. Viva Los Indios de Mexico.

hazzardm
05-06-2010, 01:51 PM
Sounds to me a like a bunch of punks trying to start trouble on school grounds. WTF is wrong with common courtesy. Those admins should have just let the mexican kids kick their ass and let it go.

ddog
05-06-2010, 02:34 PM
Insane, get the gvt out of education and fire all these useless clown administrators.

Let people wear what they wish, hitler tees or us flags. It's part of being civilized. Of course if they showed in a burka or the death robe most of the posts on here would be all for sending them home.

Tom
05-06-2010, 03:02 PM
dog,
Free speech only applies to illegals.
If you are a citizen, sucks to be you.

johnhannibalsmith
05-06-2010, 03:13 PM
At the risk of being misinterpreted here, I'll try to carefully express what I'm trying to say. At face value, it is absurd that kids with a patriotic symbol be punished simply because it is a day that celebrates another heritage. But there is some room to consider if there may have been some motive that was not rooted in patriotism, but possibly in inciting, even if it is a fairly mild method to that end.

I'm not suggesting that the case here is that, but I'm also too far removed from the situation to know for sure that it isn't. Obviously most here have to be able to understand the possibility that the kids were motivated by more than mere patriotism to choose this attire on this particular day.

It is their right to express that opinion. Unfortunately, it is not their right to express that opinion if it disrupts the normal and orderly function of a place of education.

So yeah, while it really seems idiotic and anti-american, I'm just a little cautious here in standing too firmly behind these kids at first glance.

GaryG
05-06-2010, 03:20 PM
California is more of a joke every day....state is broke but they can't possibly offend those most responsible for them being broke. Did they declare war on Arizona yet? Pussy liberals never cease to amaze me. Will the last American citizen leaving California please turn out the lights? Somehow I can't see this happening in Texas.

skate
05-06-2010, 04:04 PM
yah, i dont think they use Stinco in mehico, it's only for those not "into" the takeover.

skate
05-06-2010, 04:06 PM
Usually i dont bother with the phone, it always rings, but no message.

Today i pick up phone and a recording startes speaking Spainish...it's too funny.

mmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmm

Had enough?

DJofSD
05-06-2010, 04:09 PM
Bulletin: The results of the Mexican War were declared invalid. All lands illegally seized from the Mrxican govt in the 1840s have now been returned. Viva Los Unidos de Mexico.
A member or La Raza, are you?

Black Ruby
05-06-2010, 04:21 PM
of course, it would be interesting to know if these guys had ever worn clothing with the flag on it before.

BlueShoe
05-06-2010, 04:37 PM
Today i pick up phone and a recording startes speaking Spainish...it's too funny.

Had enough?
This happens to me often, and I do not find it funny, and have had more than enough. In addition, not uncommon to find advertisements in my mailbox in Spanish. Welcome to the Peoples Socialist Republic of Mexifornia.

bigmack
05-06-2010, 04:40 PM
WTF is wrong with common courtesy. Those admins should have just let the mexican kids kick their ass and let it go.
:lol: :lol:

This 'holiday' is not even recognized in Mexico. It's called Drinko de Mayo for a reason. It gives people a reason to drink for a day. End of story.

Ask most Mexicans what the day means and they haven't the slightest idea.

hazzardm
05-06-2010, 05:07 PM
It's called Drinko de Mayo for a reason. It gives people a reason to drink for a day.

.

Kinda like bowling or ice fishing ;)

Dave Schwartz
05-06-2010, 05:26 PM
Okay, here is an update:

I spoke with the Superintendent's office in the Morgan Hill Unified School district. First, the spokesperson pointed me to a press release, which I will display below.

She told me clearly that what the administration did at Oak Hill HS was WRONG and that the discussion now is about what disciplinary action will be taken. She was truly apologetic.

Note that the press release was much "softer" than what I received from the super's office.


http://www.mhu.k12.ca.us/About-MHUSD/Breaking-News/index.html



The Morgan Hill Unified School District does not prohibit nor do we discourage wearing patriotic clothing. The incident on May 5 at Live Oak High School is extremely unfortunate. While campus safety is our primary concern and administrators made decisions yesterday in an attempt to ensure campus safety, students should not, and will not, be disciplined for wearing patriotic clothing. This matter is under investigation and appropriate action will be taken.

Dave Schwartz
05-06-2010, 05:32 PM
of course, it would be interesting to know if these guys had ever worn clothing with the flag on it before.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with how wrong the action of the school administrators was.

Robert Goren
05-06-2010, 05:58 PM
I have never been a big fan of the flag on clothing, but it is common place enough that wearing it anyplace at anytime should be allowed. The school administrators were wrong. I also like to say I believe the kids who wore the t-shirts did it to stir up trouble. If I had been a kid at that school I would have worn one too because as my high school principal use to say "You are just a trouble maker plain and simple" as he would be handing out a week's detention.;)

skate
05-06-2010, 08:30 PM
This happens to me often, and I do not find it funny, and have had more than enough. In addition, not uncommon to find advertisements in my mailbox in Spanish. Welcome to the Peoples Socialist Republic of Mexifornia.

well yah, actually your correcto. funny could be strange.

But, funny, because i've given up on things such as the teliphone and tv and mail and voting and haircuts.

Hey, you gotta go your own way babe.

OH oh oh, the Auto is next to go for the -skate.:)

skate
05-06-2010, 08:37 PM
Hey this post brings to mind, while growing up (almost there).


We used to wear Yank/Rebel hats. and battles would go on at anytime we were out of class.

Funny, i was 6 th grade, so whatever the BIG GUY from 8th grade wore (we kept changing hats) i tried to find the same (yank.rebel) hat he had.

And my point, question, did anyone else go thru this phase.? OH it was great!!!

Tom
05-06-2010, 09:07 PM
of course, it would be interesting to know if these guys had ever worn clothing with the flag on it before.

Why?
It seems obvious why they wore it this day.
That's what free speech is all about.

BlueShoe
05-06-2010, 10:24 PM
But, funny, because i've given up on things such as the teliphone and tv and mail and voting and haircuts.

Hey, you gotta go your own way babe.

OH oh oh, the Auto is next to go for the -skate.:)
But you will keep your computer so that you can wager on a horserace when you choose to do so. Just one little concession to modern technology.

falconridge
05-06-2010, 11:17 PM
:lol: :lol:

This 'holiday' is not even recognized in Mexico. It's called Drinko de Mayo for a reason. It gives people a reason to drink for a day. End of story.

Ask most Mexicans what the day means and they haven't the slightest idea.
Everybody knows it's a "Pagan" holiday--though in Puerto Rico, not Mexico. It's Jose Pagan's birthday!

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a41/brotz13/PAGAN.jpg

bigmack
05-06-2010, 11:49 PM
Let's give it up for D. Schwartz.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/kaneklap1.gif

Sometimes ya just gotta get involved with this stuff. Nice work, David.

Look, I ain't sayin' nothin' 'bout nuthin' but the Asst. Principals name is something like Manuel Garcia.

Anybody 'round here that knows what it's like to be in neighborhoods where you one of the few gringo's knows of what I speak.

I'm talkin' about an outnumbered scenario and I applaud those kids for expressing their freedom.

boxcar
05-06-2010, 11:50 PM
Which has absolutely nothing to do with how wrong the action of the school administrators was.

BINGO! Thank you, Dave! Go to the head of the class because you get it!

And permit me to add some additional insight for all you muddle-headed libs out there: If the school was so concerned about the possible expressions of INTOLERANCE and LACK OF UNDERSTANDING on the part of Latinos in an AMERICAN school on AMERICAN soil because of a non-existent holiday in Grand Ol' Mexico, then the school should have been prepared to deal appropriately with the thin skinned, insensitive, rude,and obviously uneducated poor, offended victims of free speech in a free country. You see, the school missed a golden opportunity for some students to have a great teachable moment. The school could have also taught the intolerant bunch that since they're living in American, it's incumbent upon them to assimilate into OUR culture, not the other way around. When in Mexico, I'll do what my neighbors to the south do, but not before then!

Boxcar

sandpit
05-06-2010, 11:55 PM
Back in the early 70s when I was a kid, I had a short sleeve sweatshirt that had our flag on it and I wore it everywhere...I loved the thing, not only because of the flag, but it was super comfortable...even in that anti-American, peacenik time period, I never had anybody say anything about it to me.

JustRalph
05-07-2010, 12:00 AM
Flags should never be worn as part of clothing

As symbols only. Such as patches and pins

Section. 8

http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf

LottaKash
05-07-2010, 12:04 AM
So yeah, while it really seems idiotic and anti-american, I'm just a little cautious here in standing too firmly behind these kids at first glance.

Hey cautious one, it is idiotic and anti-American...Period...Cautious my ass...

You know how many men and women died for those colors....And that includes people I knew and loved and were in the war with...

We can pledge allegiance to the flag, but we can't wear the colors.........F...Mexico...

ArlJim78
05-07-2010, 12:19 AM
of course these kids did nothing wrong, and don't need a permission slip to wear patriotic attire. if someone is offended then send THEM home.

but if you tell me that they never wore this stuff with the flags before, and did so today precisely because they wanted to make a point and to flush out the PC crazies, well my admiration for them goes up even higher. we need to stop apologizing for America and to stop letting the PC crowd and the chronically offended dictate what the rules are.

johnhannibalsmith
05-07-2010, 12:52 AM
F...Mexico...

If that is the sole message intending to be sent by wearing a shirt with the American flag on May 5, then the use of the flag in that context is arguably disrespectful and disruptive. And that is basically the gist of my post - that some will potentially interpret the decision to wear the flag on May five as exactly that.

I agree with everything else that you said in your post. I certainly haven't been immune to the sacrifice of true patriots and would give my own life in a heartbeat for a sacrifice just as worthy as theirs in respect to those same sacrifices that have been made for me.

Wearing a shirt to be patriotic is a wonderful thing. To do so as a way to make a political or social statement about your feelings about Mexico, it's citizens, or Mexican-Americans may or may not be a wonderful thing depending upon your beliefs.

I don't argue with anyone that wants to defend the kids' right to take any position they wish and express those beliefs. I did, however, caution that doing so in the context of an educational system always puts those rights and protections into a position of interpretation as most jurisdictions have statutes that deal specifically with conduct that disrupts right of individual students.

I think you probably jumped the gun on where I stand on this one. I was sent home from school once long ago for refusing to change out of a shirt I was wearing because of its message.

LottaKash
05-07-2010, 12:58 AM
I think you probably jumped the gun on where I stand on this one. I was sent home from school once long ago for refusing to change out of a shirt I was wearing because of its message.

Fair enough, but what was the message on your shirt ?

And, what is the message of our Flag ?....Freedom, right ?...Not the same, imo...

And what is the message that "these" educators are sending....American Flag, sucks, right ?

5th of May in America, BS....:mad:

ElKabong
05-07-2010, 01:07 AM
California is more of a joke every day....Somehow I can't see this happening in Texas.

I can see it. Painful to say. The metro public schools are no better than what this thread is about. Dallas, Houston, maybe SA, maybe Austin....definitely El Paso, which I wish Perry would trade to New Mexico for 2 burritos and a taco.

Even some suburbs might make a small deal of it, but i'd doubt it...but the "city" schools here are not much better than the dogshit story above.

Where I live, teachers would approve or applaud US flags on shirts. In Lsbets' district they would too. Not too sure about Ranchwests' district tho (arlington).

johnhannibalsmith
05-07-2010, 01:15 AM
Fair enough, but what was the message on your shirt ?

It had the word "hell" on it. I guess it was a different time considering what I see today as commonplace today. I was reported by the school to my parents, who reported back that they had purchased it for me as a (holiday?) gift.


And, what is the message of our Flag ?....Freedom, right ?...Not the same, imo...

I think it means so many different things to so many people and that is one of the things that makes me so proud of its meaning - it is static for everyone. But for me - I'd agree with you on the best one word meaning. Freedom - the liberty and empowerment to achieve as individuals with minimal constraint, no predetermined expectations, and immeasurable unique differences with a cohesive bond that our individuality is what makes us all similar.

And what is the message that "these" educators are sending....American Flag, sucks, right ?

I kind of have to believe that they didn't intend to send that message. I believe that they had to have been intending to send the message that school is not the place to make brash statements that could hurt and alienate children.

But yes, of course, the educators were overlooking the extremely obvious - that people would draw the conclusion that you post and that should have concerned them at least as much as they were concerned for those not wearing the shirts. Again, kids are coddled too much as it is and they are being prepared for the real world so it seemed a lost opportunity to educate on the merit of our freedoms and allowing for some real-life maturity. Today parents think dumb kids are either "challenged" or "not challenged enough" - anything to protect their fragile egos so they can grow up to be wimpering, maladjusted adults.

5th of May in America, BS....:mad:

I'm not sure I care that much one way or the other about cinco de mayo as long as the participants in America can translate the day of the week back to english when asked to do so.

Now, Secretary's Day is BS. Everyone knows that they are administrative assistants.

boxcar
05-07-2010, 01:21 AM
Fair enough, but what was the message on your shirt ?

And, what is the message of our Flag ?....Freedom, right ?...Not the same, imo...

And what is the message that "these" educators are sending....American Flag, sucks, right ?

5th of May in America, BS....:mad:

If any of the Latinos in that school (which I heard from guests on the Mark Levin show comprise about 40% of the student body) were offended by the message of the American flag, then shouldn't we be asking them, "What are you doing here in America, if you find freedom so offensive?" If any of the students had this huge love affair with and draped themselves in the Mexican flag and were such proud nationals of their home country, why aren't they living there instead of here? Since they think they're too good for America, why don't they return to Mexico and use all their brains and know-how to make Mexico a better country instead of coming over here to trash this one?

Just asking is all...

Boxcar

hazzardm
05-07-2010, 01:22 AM
Again, kids are coddled too much as it is and they are being prepared for the real world so it seemed a lost opportunity to educate on the merit of our freedoms and allowing for some real-life maturity. Today parents think dumb kids are either "challenged" or "not challenged enough" - anything to protect their fragile egos so they can grow up to be wimpering, maladjusted adults.
.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

johnhannibalsmith
05-07-2010, 01:37 AM
... it is static for everyone...

I know that I was once schooled by the great Space Monkey for quoting myself as "extremely poor form", but after re-reading this reply, clearly "static" should have been negated or perhaps replaced with "dynamic". Time for bed.

bigmack
05-07-2010, 01:48 AM
The use of the flag in that context is arguably disrespectful and disruptive
Disruptive to what and who's in charge of why a person puts on an article of clothing?

Dave Schwartz
05-07-2010, 02:03 AM
Hey cautious one, it is idiotic and anti-American...Period...Cautious my ass...

You know how many men and women died for those colors....And that includes people I knew and loved and were in the war with...

We can pledge allegiance to the flag, but we can't wear the colors.

Mister Kash - and I say that with deep respect - gets it.

See the bold part of that quote? I emboldened it for the same reason that he wrote it: because it means something to me.

At this point some of us on this BBS are saying, "Yeah, sure. I get it. We're Americans and people died and blah-blah-blah. Let's move on."

But see, they don't get it. Because the only proper response to that is respect and admiration. Especially admiration - for someone who willingly put their life in harm's way for a cause.

What was the cause? Doesn't matter. They were assigned a task by their country - perhaps a task that they did not even believe in - but they accepted it anyway.

They were assigned a task and they followed through on it, despite the potential harm they faced.

I can tell you this... any man who served his country... SERVED HIS COUNTRY... is a hero. That should never be trivialized.

THAT is what the flag represents. What they did at Oak Grove was to trivialize that. In so doing they disgraced that flag; they dishonored the men who risked their lives and and especially those who lost their lives.


American citizens should be outraged at this. I know I am. But that's because I have a stake in it and this country. Apparently not everyone does. They have no loyalty to this country.

See, that's the rub, really. Lots of Americans do not love their country enough to stand up for it.. And many immigrants do love THEIR country. Problem is that THEIR country is not America!

Give a watch to this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nONjlZ8YMkA

Now, that is patriotism in action.


Respectfully,
David E. Schwartz

johnhannibalsmith
05-07-2010, 02:07 AM
Disruptive to what and who's in charge of why a person puts on an article of clothing?

Disruptive to the process of educating and the right of all to education on that day in particular if and only if the use of the flag in that specific context is intended to basically say "F - Mexico" more than it is intended to say "Hooray for America!". I'm not saying that was the intent, but someone close to the situation probably did think it was possible, hence my use of "arguably".

The second portion seems a bit rhetorical as it would be hard to avoid the obvious. I'll reiterate that I think that education should involve a bit more than geometry and spanish classes - learning to respect the reality that we don't all agree and learning to cope with those differences and treat them maturely seems like a much more valuable education than tautologies or dangling participles are.

Maybe I made too much effort trying to understand why things played out this way with deference to a prevailing mentality that I don't buy into, but recognize as the new "way" for people today. I was sort of kind of trying to check my opinion on the way things should be at the door and be a little objective with the reality that my personal opinion isn't quite as mainstream as it once was. Or something like that... I'm about to pass out at the keyboard... maybe I can be a little clearer when I'm clearer...

LottaKash
05-07-2010, 02:07 AM
Well put Dave....You American, you....:jump:

best,

boxcar
05-07-2010, 10:35 AM
Disruptive to the process of educating and the right of all to education on that day in particular if and only if the use of the flag in that specific context is intended to basically say "F - Mexico" more than it is intended to say "Hooray for America!". I'm not saying that was the intent, but someone close to the situation probably did think it was possible, hence my use of "arguably".

So...the school should be in the business of policing thoughts? Questioning people's motives? Isn't this what PC is all about? One group controlling the speech and ultimately even the thoughts of another? The goal of PC is to stifle different viewpoints.

How could the American flag be dropping the F bomb as you suggest above? It can't. However...it could admittedly be interpreted by thin-skinned, intolerant Latinos in that way! But so what!? :bang: When any one of us listens to anything anyone else says or reads something by someone else, it's all open to interpretation. And I'll be the first to admit that many people only want to hear what they want to hear! But that is their problem, not the messenger's! If some Latinos in the school were not mentally or emotionally equipped to handle the message of the American flag and what it represents and symbolizes to many Americans -- then THEY need to get some help. THEY need some guidance. THEY need some counseling. And after all this, if they still don't get it, then maybe should go back from whence they came. At the end of the day, we'd have to conclude that maybe they can't handle freedom, including freedom of speech.

Boxcar

DJofSD
05-07-2010, 10:59 AM
Notice the flags on the pole in the background.

GaryG
05-07-2010, 11:18 AM
When my son was in high school he and a bunch of his friends declared every friday to be "Rebel Day". Each wore the stars and bars or whatever they thought was appropriate. They caught some heat from a few students but never had any trouble. Most teachers thought it was a fine idea. That was several years ago and not in California by the way.

46zilzal
05-07-2010, 11:27 AM
When my son was in high school he and a bunch of his friends declared every friday to be "Rebel Day". Each wore the stars and bars or whatever they thought was appropriate. .
My mother's high school still flies that flag everyday in Alabama

46zilzal
05-07-2010, 11:35 AM
There are those who really disagree

Tom
05-07-2010, 11:37 AM
Many see that flag as offensive.
I see it a reminder of where we were and how far we have come.
We went to war with ourselves, killed our own, and came back from to become a solid nation united....until libs came along. :rolleyes:

BTW, isn't flying our flag upside down and subordinate, while dissing our laws by marching in the streets, hurling false accusations that we are a facist state, and hurling bottles at police like dropping the F bomb on US?

Yes, my message to them and to Mexico is F YOU.

46zilzal
05-07-2010, 11:40 AM
BTW, isn't flying our flag upside down and subordinate, while dissing our laws by marching in the streets, hurling false accusations that we are a facist state, and hurling bottles at police like dropping the F bomb on US?

Yes, my message to them and to Mexico is F YOU.
You should change the message as it seems your answer to everything other than "Nuke 'em"

Tom
05-07-2010, 11:42 AM
Perhaps the NBA should play all their games in Mexico.
Oh, wait, then none of them would be stinking millionaires, would they.
How come you libs aren't out for their blood - they are rich bastards....shouldn't you be gutting them? :lol:

Get Los is more like it.

Tom
05-07-2010, 11:43 AM
You should change the message as it seems your answer to everything other than "Nuke 'em"

It certainly is not limited to Mexico. :D

DJofSD
05-07-2010, 11:49 AM
Remember the Alamo! Davey Crockett died while fighting the then super power in the western hemishere, Mexico.

johnhannibalsmith
05-07-2010, 11:55 AM
So...the school should be in the business of policing thoughts? Questioning people's motives? Isn't this what PC is all about? One group controlling the speech and ultimately even the thoughts of another? The goal of PC is to stifle different viewpoints.

Again, Boxcar, I detest what schools have become when it comes to this crap. They are little more than daycare centers, more concerned with shielding kids from real emotion and themselves from lawsuits. So no, I think that schools should welcome this type of diversity and even the potential for divisiveness due to interpretation.

I think that they should provide a mature forum for people to discuss their thoughts on these types of subjects and learn how to disagree with civility, which my actually lead to recognition that there isn't much disagreement to begin with. Recoiling at the thought of someone being offended only exacerbates the divide and pits the parties against one another; the worry over "hurt feelings" only fosters the environment for feelings to be hurt and all too often, it isn't rooted in anything other than the manufactured environment caused by the overly sensitive creating the atmosphere because of their hypersensitive reactions.


How could the American flag be dropping the F bomb as you suggest above? It can't. However...it could admittedly be interpreted by thin-skinned, intolerant Latinos in that way! But so what!? :bang: When any one of us listens to anything anyone else says or reads something by someone else, it's all open to interpretation. And I'll be the first to admit that many people only want to hear what they want to hear! But that is their problem, not the messenger's! If some Latinos in the school were not mentally or emotionally equipped to handle the message of the American flag and what it represents and symbolizes to many Americans -- then THEY need to get some help. THEY need some guidance. THEY need some counseling. And after all this, if they still don't get it, then maybe should go back from whence they came. At the end of the day, we'd have to conclude that maybe they can't handle freedom, including freedom of speech.

Boxcar

I'm not going to disgree with much of any of this sentiment, other than to point out that this newfangled condition of being unable to handle freedom is certainly not exclusive to Latinos or other minorities. They probably were less offended and quick to stifle those freedoms than the do-gooder school administrators were. Again, the schools have turned into petri dishes for growing crybaby, needy, bruised, self-loathing, deserving pukes that are quickly redefining the notion of adulthood before our eyes.

My posts had nothing to do with what I see as right or wrong with the situation, but in trying to understand why and how a school could react this way in contemporary society. It simply does not surprise me one bit. This is the new way. Given the expectations of administrators by many communities and their attorneys, it so does not surprise me that they would react this way, that I'm almost inclined to take greater exception with the societal standards at the this point than with the administrators that reacted predictably to those standards. The school was wrong on a fundamental level and in my opinion, on nearly every level, but I'm not convinced that they didn't legitimately, albeit misguidedly, believe that the decision was a responsible one with deference to their community.

Dave Schwartz
05-07-2010, 11:59 AM
When my son was in high school he and a bunch of his friends declared every friday to be "Rebel Day". Each wore the stars and bars or whatever they thought was appropriate. They caught some heat from a few students but never had any trouble. Most teachers thought it was a fine idea. That was several years ago and not in California by the way.


The bold part is, perhaps, the understatement of the year.

Gary,

I remember those days. Your post is, perhaps, the best example of all.

You are speaking about a symbol that, to people of the south, meant/means a lot. However, it has come to be representative of "hurt feelings" for a subset of Americans.

A rhetorical question: Where does the constitution guarantee that your feelings will never be hurt?

I find it less than coincidental that today's po-litical co-rrectness has led us to the next level: that the symbol of America should not be displayed because it might offend some people.

Now, I do not personally happen to be a rebel-flag-flying guy but those of who are upset about the high school thing with our flag might now be better able to understand how the people of the deep south reacted over their symbol being socially outlawed.

Can you agree, Gary?


Dave

ddog
05-07-2010, 12:02 PM
"THAT is what the flag represents. What they did at Oak Grove was to trivialize that. In so doing they disgraced that flag; they dishonored the men who risked their lives and and especially those who lost their lives."


Once anyone has the idea that only they have the correct idea of "what is represented" then they are siding with the Admin who KNEW what was being "represented" and thus took action based on that.

Freedom is harder and sometimes more painful than that Dave.

You telling me that the guys who served and may wear a flag are disgracing the men who served? I know some who would take great offense at that idea.

The people who served and died are worth more than that.

If the people had worn a flag with 48 stars would that be ok?

Tom
05-07-2010, 12:42 PM
I find it less than coincidental that today's po-litical co-rrectness has led us to the next level: that the symbol of America should not be displayed because it might offend some people.

One of the "arguments" for the action was that 40% of the school is Latino.
Gee, did they forget that 100% was AMERICAN?

RXB
05-07-2010, 12:44 PM
The boys said the administrators called their T-shirts "incendiary" that would lead to fights on campus.


And those "fights" would be THEIR fault? Unbelievable.

Many years ago, the World University Games were held in Toronto. And there was a contingent of "Greek-Canadians" who were cheering for Greece and booing-- yes, booing-- the Canadian team. This is what happens with stupid multiculturalist policies that encourage people to identify with their ancestral country as much as (or more than) the country in which they live-- i.e., the one that feeds them.

But of course, they like their full stomachs, and their nice cars, and houses, and health care, and pensions, etc., that they wouldn't be able to have in "the old country."

GaryG
05-07-2010, 12:49 PM
The bold part is, perhaps, the understatement of the year.

Gary,

I remember those days. Your post is, perhaps, the best example of all.

You are speaking about a symbol that, to people of the south, meant/means a lot. However, it has come to be representative of "hurt feelings" for a subset of Americans.

A rhetorical question: Where does the constitution guarantee that your feelings will never be hurt?

I find it less than coincidental that today's po-litical co-rrectness has led us to the next level: that the symbol of America should not be displayed because it might offend some people.

Now, I do not personally happen to be a rebel-flag-flying guy but those of who are upset about the high school thing with our flag might now be better able to understand how the people of the deep south reacted over their symbol being socially outlawed.

Can you agree, Gary?


DaveYes Dave, you are right. I see where the local immigrants are threatening gang retaliation. Time to invoke the Alamo. Thank you W B Travis.

Dave Schwartz
05-07-2010, 12:56 PM
Many years ago, the World University Games were held in Toronto. And there was a contingent of "Greek-Canadians" who were cheering for Greece and booing-- yes, booing-- the Canadian team. This is what happens with stupid multiculturalist policies that encourage people to identify with their ancestral country as much as (or more than) the country in which they live-- i.e., the one that feeds them.

But of course, they like their full stomachs, and their nice cars, and houses, and health care, and pensions, etc., that they wouldn't be able to have in "the old country."

Right on the money.

Serious Question: "Why does something as obvious as this seem to not get through to so many people?"

Tom
05-07-2010, 01:07 PM
53% are morons?:rolleyes:

boxcar
05-07-2010, 01:13 PM
Again, Boxcar, I detest what schools have become when it comes to this crap. They are little more than daycare centers, more concerned with shielding kids from real emotion and themselves from lawsuits. So no, I think that schools should welcome this type of diversity and even the potential for divisiveness due to interpretation.

I think that they should provide a mature forum for people to discuss their thoughts on these types of subjects and learn how to disagree with civility, which my actually lead to recognition that there isn't much disagreement to begin with. Recoiling at the thought of someone being offended only exacerbates the divide and pits the parties against one another; the worry over "hurt feelings" only fosters the environment for feelings to be hurt and all too often, it isn't rooted in anything other than the manufactured environment caused by the overly sensitive creating the atmosphere because of their hypersensitive reactions.



I'm not going to disgree with much of any of this sentiment, other than to point out that this newfangled condition of being unable to handle freedom is certainly not exclusive to Latinos or other minorities. They probably were less offended and quick to stifle those freedoms than the do-gooder school administrators were. Again, the schools have turned into petri dishes for growing crybaby, needy, bruised, self-loathing, deserving pukes that are quickly redefining the notion of adulthood before our eyes.

My posts had nothing to do with what I see as right or wrong with the situation, but in trying to understand why and how a school could react this way in contemporary society. It simply does not surprise me one bit. This is the new way. Given the expectations of administrators by many communities and their attorneys, it so does not surprise me that they would react this way, that I'm almost inclined to take greater exception with the societal standards at the this point than with the administrators that reacted predictably to those standards. The school was wrong on a fundamental level and in my opinion, on nearly every level, but I'm not convinced that they didn't legitimately, albeit misguidedly, believe that the decision was a responsible one with deference to their community.

Of course. The intentions of the "misguided" are always considered "good" and "well meaning".

And your take on the freedom issue among the nations is spot-on. I have long opposed the idea that America should be in the business of exporting our form of government (or even "democracy") to other nations. The irrefutable fact is that many nations are not culturally or psychologically equipped to cope with the responsibilities that necessarily attend to a truly free society. America should limit her aid, her help, her support to only nations that have requested such or that have clearly shown they are ready to evolve into freer societies. Best to err on the side of isolationism than to be perceived as an conquering, occupying or evem meddling imperialist.

Boxcar

BlueShoe
05-07-2010, 01:26 PM
I see where the local immigrants are threatening gang retaliation. Time to invoke the Alamo.
What we need to eliminate these kinds of situations is the Texas Rangers. No, not todays Rangers, which are now just another modern law enforcement agency, but the 1840's version, the Captain Jack Hays led men. During the Mexican War they became so effective and feared, that they became known as Los Tejanos Diablos. Men like this would solve the threat of violence problems by the illegals in short order. Alas, this is just a fantasy that will never happen, so it will be up to us citizens to step in. Do you like the smell of gunpowder? This situation is going to get much worse, with extremeists on both sides ready to go.

46zilzal
05-07-2010, 01:44 PM
More cops more tasers more violence...yes that is always the answer...Reactionaries ALWAYS look back at those GOOD OLD DAYS even if they were fictions.

RXB
05-07-2010, 01:46 PM
Right on the money.

Serious Question: "Why does something as obvious as this seem to not get through to so many people?"

Serious Answer: I'm not entirely sure. Maybe because people are trying to be accommodating, because they recognize that racism and prejudice are ugly beasts, but in trying to be accommodating they sometimes go too far, and end up advancing some of the prejudices of the "minority" cultures.

There's always a happy medium. I don't expect someone who arrives from another country to become immediately and utterly assimilated. I also think that most people who come here want to fit in and feel like they're part of the wider fabric. But some don't, and to me they're no different, no better, no less xenophobic than the born-and-raised white racists.

Tom
05-07-2010, 01:55 PM
More cops more tasers more violence...yes that is always the answer...Reactionaries ALWAYS look back at those GOOD OLD DAYS even if they were fictions.
So your answer to gang violence is.......

boxcar
05-07-2010, 01:57 PM
More cops more tasers more violence...yes that is always the answer...Reactionaries ALWAYS look back at those GOOD OLD DAYS even if they were fictions.

Fighting fire with fire can be a very effective way of combating criminals. Of course, the alternative is to sit down and negotiate with the coyotes, kidnappers, drug lords, drug smugglers, murderers, rapists, etc. that have had pretty much their way in places like AZ. I know you like to think that lowlifes such as these are equal in every way to law-abiding citizens.

Boxcar

Dave Schwartz
05-07-2010, 02:12 PM
There's always a happy medium. I don't expect someone who arrives from another country to become immediately and utterly assimilated. I also think that most people who come here want to fit in and feel like they're part of the wider fabric. But some don't, and to me they're no different, no better, no less xenophobic than the born-and-raised white racists.

I truly do not see this as a "race" issue.

Listen, if I move to a foreign country, do I have the right to expect that the country is going to change its laws to suit me or my cultural group? Of course not.

Yet that is what is expected in the U.S. and, crazy as it seems, we go for it.

If I choose to live in a Muslim country I had better be prepared to live by the laws of the country. Why should it be any different when "they" move here? But it IS different, isn't it?

Dave

DJofSD
05-07-2010, 02:23 PM
More cops more tasers more violence...yes that is always the answer...Reactionaries ALWAYS look back at those GOOD OLD DAYS even if they were fictions.
Reactionaries? Really, I think you've overstated things.

Mostly what we are talking about here is the respect and tolerance.

And violence is a fact of life -- and government. Goverments exists due to violence and incorporates use of force into its foundation.

RXB
05-07-2010, 02:24 PM
Dave, you might not see it as a racial issue, personally. I think most people don't; it's a matter of social and legal principles to them, and I agree with them. But there are some people for whom it is a racial issue; and my point is, the latter group includes non-whites as well as whites.

bigmack
05-07-2010, 02:37 PM
Pretty tough to be about race when:

The boys are Dariano; Dominic Maciel, 15; and Daniel Galli and Austin Carvalho, both 16. Two of the boys are of Mexican heritage and two are not.

Could it be about national pride?

Tom
05-07-2010, 02:48 PM
Could it be that when you come here legally, you have some pride in doing so, and feel some kind of loyalty to a country that took you in from the miserable POS country Mexico ( why else are they leaving in droves?)?

Could it be that when you respect the laws you also respect the people?

fast4522
05-07-2010, 02:54 PM
You come here for a better life legally great, STFU and learn what it means to be a American. Forget about changing our way of life, focus on changing yours for the better with no cost to others. Become a productive member who speaks English!

46zilzal
05-07-2010, 02:55 PM
You come here for a better life legally great, STFU and learn what it means to be a American. Forget about changing our way of life, focus on changing yours for the better with no cost to others. Become a productive member who speaks English!
There is no singular definition no more than there is a definition of how to be a human being.

skate
05-07-2010, 03:01 PM
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:


:ThmbUp:

skate
05-07-2010, 03:08 PM
Right on the money.

Serious Question: "Why does something as obvious as this seem to not get through to so many people?"


Welllll, what's oblivious, just might not be obvious.

you see, if you made a bet and won, you are correct, but you'll only get paid if others are wrong.
Dave, can you see that?

fast4522
05-07-2010, 03:09 PM
46zilzal is like something that just won't go away, how many tubes of this will it take.

46zilzal
05-07-2010, 03:17 PM
46zilzal is like something that just won't go away, how many tubes of this will it take.
Philistine characterizations and definitions don't cut it with the populous?

Narrow minded views of the world never do.

boxcar
05-07-2010, 05:30 PM
46zilzal is like something that just won't go away, how many tubes of this will it take.

He's the cliche-a-minute man. He's been programmed that way. His canned responses are Boring as all get out...

Boxcar

skate
05-07-2010, 08:18 PM
Philistine characterizations and definitions don't cut it with the populous?

Narrow minded views of the world never do.

Art thou sure bout dat?

Tom
05-08-2010, 09:51 AM
Break out the big guns.....