My Proposed Track Design - As Promised

[Thomas Roulston]

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af197/ajbrancato/Spring_2010014.jpg


Width of main track: 195 feet.

Width of turf course: 185 feet.

Length of turns on main track: 1/2 mile.

Length of turns on turf course: 3/8 mile.

Length of turn on infield chute, turf course: 5/16 mile.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

6f races started that close to a turn, even a sweeping one, become post position biased to the extreme.

Inside speed is deadly

Inside closers automatically get a multi-length positional edge on outside closers

Outside speed and closers are screwed

[Thomas Roulston]

6f races started that close to a turn, even a sweeping one, become post position biased to the extreme.

Inside speed is deadly

Inside closers automatically get a multi-length positional edge on outside closers

Outside speed and closers are screwed



Well what's the post-position bias in 4 1/2-furlong races at Keeneland - whose chute provided the inspiration for my 6-furlong start?

And remember that the turns we're talking about here are twice as long - that is to say, half as tight - as those found on the typical North American track.

With turns this big, you can "get away with" almost anything.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Well what's the post-position bias in 4 1/2-furlong races at Keeneland - whose chute provided the inspiration for my 6-furlong start?

You're right....I'm wrong

Can't argue with Kee success and their 4.5F racing popularity

[PhantomOnTour]

Track design is fine except for one thing:
No races start in front of the fans on the rail in the homestretch. I visited Belmont once and this was my prevailing thought. Nothing starts in front of the fans. Being on the rail for the start is exciting. The turf courses at Belmont are too far inside for the fans to get a feel for the start of the race. Anyway, my two cents. I really prefer the tri-oval design like Nad Al Sheba was.

[kenwoodall2]

It should go in New Mexico, and all the Ca trainers will go there!!LOL!!

[MaTH716]

Nice design, but is it really necessary to have a track that's a mile and three quarters? It just seems that the 1 1/4-1 3/8 chute is just a waste of space. Really besides the Derby and the BC classic how many stakes/regular races go a mile and a quarter? You would think even if you created a prep race at the distance, wouldn't the trainers rather that be a two turn race? I think you might be ok with the 6 panel races. But anything shorter the horses to the outside are seem to be at a disadvantage. I just think that the track doesn't need to be as big.

[startngate]

Don't know what the genesis of this was originally, but this design has several major flaws in it.

1) With a track this size, you would need a prohibitive amount of land to construct it, and a prohibitive amount of material to install it. Also, maintenance costs on something of this size would be enormous, not to mention the water bill for keeping up the turf course.

2) As others have mentioned, almost no commonly run races would start anywhere near the crowd, and it's hard enough to see the backstretch at Belmont, much less building another track around it as you are essentially proposing here.

3) Any one-turn distance greater than a mile is overkill, IMO.

4) Your 6 furlong turf race starts too close to the turn, as does the 7 furlong dirt race. Doesn't matter if they are sweeping turns. The 6 furlong dirt start somewhat mitigates the start problem with the chute and the larger turn, but you can't compare Keeneland's 4.5f chute which is only used for 2 year old racing.

5) The main track is over twice as wide as it needs to be. Most dirt courses in the US are around 80ft, including Churchill where they start 20 in the Derby.

6) I'm also not sure about the math. I'm sure you've done it but it seems to me that a turf course of that width would have to make the circumference of the dirt course larger by more than just 1/4 mile. For example, the Colonial Downs turf course is 180ft wide, with an inside circumference of 7 1/2 furlongs. It's dirt course is 1 1/4 miles. That's over a quarter of a mile already and you are proposing something much larger.

[46zilzal]

Over the years there have been many experiments in developing a large large track and the fans did not care for it, although it is a good idea.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I really enjoyed viewing the design and truly like many of the ideas, but share many of the same practical concerns that others do and have doubts that it would work as intended with that exact configuration.

[kenwoodall2]

I would only have the turf track, make it a 10% slope dirt track, extend the finish to the end of the homestretch, forget the long chute, and extend the 1 1/8 starting chute to 1 1/4 miles. No clubhouse turn. Put the Turf Club on the left side. Raise the infield toteboard and do not put any visual obstructions in the infield! Then have Quarterhorse and Tbreds run up to 4 1/2f on dark days!

[LottaKash]

From a "viewer's point of view, it is too big for me....Just like Indy or Daytona, Too Big....Not places for closeup watching....And, let's face it, most racegoers want to watch the races.....

Me personally tho, I almost always prefer the monitors, but when I go, there are those within the group who insist on watching the races outdoors...

Too Big...

best,.

[Thomas Roulston]

I've also developed another model, which addresses the concerns some of you have expressed about races of certain distances starting too close to the albeit-sweeping turns:


http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af197/ajbrancato/Track_Diagrams002.jpg


Main Dirt Track:
1 3/4 miles with 1 3/16 mile chute
Length of stretch from last turn to finish line: 1,320 feet
Finish line to first turn: 660 feet
Length of turns: 2,640 feet
Width of track: 140 feet
Available distances: 7 1/2f, 1m, 1m70y, 1 1/16m, 1 1/8m, 1 3/16m, 1 3/4m

Main Turf Course:
1 1/2 miles with 1 1/16 mile chute
Length of stretch from last turn to finish line: 1,320 feet
Finish line to first turn: 495 feet
Length of turns: 2,145 feet
Width of course: 130 feet (narrowing to 120 feet on chute)
Available distances: 6 1/2f, 7f, 7 1/2f, 1m, 1m70y, 1 1/16m, 1 1/2m, 1 5/8m, 1 3/4m

Inner Dirt Track:
1 1/4 miles
Length of stretch from last turn to finish line: 1,320 feet
Finish line to first turn: 330 feet
Length of turns: 1,650 feet
Width of track: 125 feet
Available distances: 5 1/2f, 6f, 6 1/2f, 7f, 1 1/4m, 1 5/16m, 1 3/8m, 1 7/16m, 1 1/2m

Inner Turf Course:
1 1/16 miles with 1 3/8 mile chute
Length of stretch from last turn to finish line: 1,320 feet
Finish line to first turn: 330 feet
Length of turns: 1,155 feet
Width of course: 120 feet
Available distances: 2 1/2f (!), 5f, 5 1/2f, 6f, 1 1/8m, 1 3/16m, 1 1/4m, 1 5/16m, 1 3/8m


Note that essentially every distance, in half-furlong increments, can be run on both dirt and turf; plus it would be possible to have one conventional dirt track and make the other a synthetic surface. The added width of all the tracks/courses allows for larger field sizes - 16 to 20, depending on proximity of starting position to turns; and with a retractable roof, all off-the-turf races could be eliminated. You could even use a hedge rather than a rail for the dirt tracks! (Isn't this done on a section of Fairplex?).

BTW, based on the value of pi, the inside rail of a 7-furlong turf course is 105 feet inside that of a 1-mile dirt course (yes, I did do my homework on this!); the tracks/courses here, being 1.5 times as wide, have 1.5 times the available space between them (i.e., 157 feet 6 inches).

[kenwoodall2]

PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
______________________________________________ 4 1/2f :cool:
^
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

(4 1/2f is the all-breed track; ^ is starting point for 2 year old auction breezes; P is for poker tables; S is for slot machines; W is WIFI for laptop internet bettors) ? :cool: is for me as the owner!!LOL!!

[Cardus]

The biggest problem with a track this size is that it throws off my viewing of the screen, as I have to use the scroll bar at the bottom of my screen to see the entirety of the design and to read the reactions.

[TommyCh]

Where's the bar?

[FenceBored]

Where's the bar?

Right past the finish line, where else?

[skate]

goodm subject.

The more you can start and/or finishes near the fans, the better. I think Del. goes this route some times.

Eliminate the trees from view. And a good shake up for the PPs.

change is good.

[nearco]

Starting near the fans isn't all that necessary. Exciting finishes are. Also the size of the track isn't going to scare fans off. Racing thrives in parts of the world that have HUGE courses, and I never heard anyone saying the weren't going to watch the Derby at Epsom, the Curragh, Longchamp or Flemington because the course was too big. Esp not nowadays with jumbotrons.

[shouldacoulda]

I visited Belmont once and this was my prevailing thought. Nothing starts in front of the fans.

The Belmont stakes start right in front of the grandstand and yes it is exciting. The problem with being at the track is you cant see a thing until they turn for home. Then you still cant see the numbers until they're almost finished. Unless you have elevation with binoculars it's better on TV.

[levinmpa]

I like the original design of the original poster, but why does every racecourse in North America have to be an oval. I like the configuration of the old Nad Al Sheba Racecourse in Dubai. It's more of a triangle shape and I think the straight, no turn 6 furlong races are awesome.

http://racingradio.homeip.net/nad_al_sheba.jpg

[nearco]

I like the original design of the original poster, but why does every racecourse in North America have to be an oval?



Often wondered that myself. And all left handed to boot.
SA's hillside and KY Downs are the exceptions that prove the rule. I suppose Woodbine is slight deviation from the norm also.

Nad al Sheba was a great configuration. Pity they went with an oval at Meydan.

And yeah, no turn sprints are the way to go, esp with 20+ runners... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odI2pmzwNn0

[ronsmac]

Lets just leave the tracks the way they are. We don't need 10 one turn races a day.

[Tread]

Or 1 1/4 mile turf races where you spend more time navagating turns than you do straightaways.

[Thomas Roulston]

In fact I studied Nad al-Sheba's layout extensively - but it has two drawbacks that can't be denied or overcome: First, the crossovers from the turf to the dirt, and second, it does not allow for every distance (in half-furlong increments) to be run on both dirt/synthetic and grass.

The latter factor is why I have coined a catchy name - "OmniDistance" - that can be accurately appended to either of the designs I've posted here; and I bet that 1 mile-70-yard dirt races around one turn would attract a cult following, just like 7 1/2-furlong dirt races did after Hollywood moved its finish line in the '80s.

And not for nothing, but could you imagine what the upcoming Monmouth Park meeting would be like, if Monmouth had either of these designs - 20-horse fields in almost every race, given those outlandish purses?

Now if only President Obama would let someone have enough stimulus money to build this track (complete with the retractable roof already discussed) somewhere!

[thespaah]

It's Colonial Downs on steroids!!!

[broadreach]

Tracks that have 5 and 6 furlong straight racing(no turns) look impressive but also have occasional strong biases. On one day the inner part is faster than the outer, and other days vice versa.

[Jay Trotter]

Thanks to Thomas Roulston on a very neat post! I haven't studied this in any detail but I think it is a "fine thing" that you took the time to think about this; put it down on paper; and share it with an audience! Well done!

Also, kudos to levinmpa for an "outside the box" point of view! Why does everything need to be the "traditional norm"? It doesn't! Thanks for sharing this view.

Trotter:ThmbUp:

[Thomas Roulston]

Thanks for the kudos, JT.

Now, how about a vote:

Which design do you prefer - the one I posted to start this thread, or the one I posted subsequently?

[Thomas Roulston]

Well, I've come up with a new, scaled-down version, with a 1 3/8-mile main track (there is no such track anywhere in North America, making the design unique in that regard) - and a new innovation for the outer turf course, with 150-degree rather than 180-degree turns. It just so happens that the point at which the rail reaches the backstretch with a 150-degree, 1,485-ft. turn is essentially the same as for a 180-degree, 1,320-ft. turn, if you place the center of the turns back (away from the grandstand side) just the right amount from the center of the turns on the main track (now I'm glad I was paying attention in the 9th grade or whenever it was when they taught the value of pi!). Then you simply bend the rail so that it's parallel to the main-track rail along the backstretch. It's so subtle that one cannot even tell what was done in the accompanying diagram.

And this model retains the enhanced widths of all the courses - at least 120 feet (as in the E.P. Taylor Turf Course at Woodbine), so as to comfortably accomodate 20-horse fields.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I would be happy if certain distances were eliminated. I would keep these distances: 4 1/2, 5f, 6f, 6 1/2, 1 mile, 1 1/16, 1 1/8, 1 1/4, 1 1/2, and 1 3/4.

5 1/2, 7, 7 1/2, 1m40, 1m70, 1 3/16 would go bye bye if it was up to me.

I especially hate 7 furlong races with a passion.

[craigbraddick]

Thomas:

Very interesting track designs. I am not really sure an inner turf course is needed and like many others I think a straight 6f course would be awesome.

That said, I would love to see a steeplechase course on the main turf track and then maybe an inner turf course for some turf racing on the flat.

Craig

[thespaah]

Well, I've come up with a new, scaled-down version, with a 1 3/8-mile main track (there is no such track anywhere in North America, making the design unique in that regard) - and a new innovation for the outer turf course, with 150-degree rather than 180-degree turns. It just so happens that the point at which the rail reaches the backstretch with a 150-degree, 1,485-ft. turn is essentially the same as for a 180-degree, 1,320-ft. turn, if you place the center of the turns back (away from the grandstand side) just the right amount from the center of the turns on the main track (now I'm glad I was paying attention in the 9th grade or whenever it was when they taught the value of pi!). Then you simply bend the rail so that it's parallel to the main-track rail along the backstretch. It's so subtle that one cannot even tell what was done in the accompanying diagram.

And this model retains the enhanced widths of all the courses - at least 120 feet (as in the E.P. Taylor Turf Course at Woodbine), so as to comfortably accommodate 20-horse fields.
Only flaw I see is with the inner turf course.
At distances of 8, 8.5 and 9F the front stretch would see much turf stress.
I would suggest a chute in the infield to give starting gate placement options to save money on turf maintanence.

[andtheyreoff]

I especially hate 7 furlong races with a passion.

Why?

[turfnsport]

Can you add a really big detention barn?

[rastajenk]

And a half-mile harness track in the middle? :p

[Irish Boy]

Here's my idea for a new track. It's a little rough, but I think the idea is clear enough.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Why?
I have a bad ROI in 7 furlong races and using speed figs for 7 furlong races is worse than hit and miss.

[Robert Fischer]

Nice work

appreciate the care and creativity you obviously put into it.

not ready to do a serious critique at the moment.


http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af197/ajbrancato/Spring_2010014.jpg


Width of main track: 195 feet.

Width of turf course: 185 feet.

Length of turns on main track: 1/2 mile.

Length of turns on turf course: 3/8 mile.

Length of turn on infield chute, turf course: 5/16 mile.

[Dahoss9698]

Here's my idea for a new track. It's a little rough, but I think the idea is clear enough.

Nice work

appreciate the care and creativity you obviously put into it.

not ready to do a serious critique at the moment.

[Cardus]

Here's my idea for a new track. It's a little rough, but I think the idea is clear enough.

Outstanding!

[Thomas Roulston]

I would be happy if certain distances were eliminated. I would keep these distances: 4 1/2, 5f, 6f, 6 1/2, 1 mile, 1 1/16, 1 1/8, 1 1/4, 1 1/2, and 1 3/4.

5 1/2, 7, 7 1/2, 1m40, 1m70, 1 3/16 would go bye bye if it was up to me.

I especially hate 7 furlong races with a passion.



But eliminating any distances defeats the whole purpose of my project - which is to design a track at which every single distance can be run on both dirt and turf, with no gaps - as in the gap between 6-furlong and 1-mile dirt races at mile tracks that utilize only a 6-furlong (as opposed to a 7-furlong) chute.

And with the very wide turf course(s), if the inner rail is placed 52.5 feet out, the course is lengthened by exactly 1/16th of a mile (for a two-turn race), still leaving the course 67.5 feet wide (or slightly wider than Hollywood Park's turf course with the rail at its normal setting).

Finally, though not reflected in the diagram, I'm toying with the idea of utilizing a hedge rather than a conventional rail on the dirt track (!). Would this pose any safety issues, in your opinion?

[macguy]

Finally, though not reflected in the diagram, I'm toying with the idea of utilizing a hedge rather than a conventional rail on the dirt track (!). Would this pose any safety issues, in your opinion?


At the very least, that's going to be a lot of extra maintenance.

[delayjf]

If I were building a track, I would duplicate Saratoga but add the one mile chute like Ellis Park has and Saratoga once had. I'd also figure out a way to run 1 1/16 races on the main track.

[thespaah]

But eliminating any distances defeats the whole purpose of my project - which is to design a track at which every single distance can be run on both dirt and turf, with no gaps - as in the gap between 6-furlong and 1-mile dirt races at mile tracks that utilize only a 6-furlong (as opposed to a 7-furlong) chute.

And with the very wide turf course(s), if the inner rail is placed 52.5 feet out, the course is lengthened by exactly 1/16th of a mile (for a two-turn race), still leaving the course 67.5 feet wide (or slightly wider than Hollywood Park's turf course with the rail at its normal setting).

Finally, though not reflected in the diagram, I'm toying with the idea of utilizing a hedge rather than a conventional rail on the dirt track (!). Would this pose any safety issues, in your opinion?
I like the use of hedges for turf courses. Hedges are far more aesthetically pleasing.
To date, I have not heard of any safety issues re: hedges. Although, NYRA added rails to the Sar and Bel turf courses. The rail itself is visible but the supports are "built in" to the plants to conceal them from view.

[thespaah]

If I were building a track, I would duplicate Saratoga but add the one mile chute like Ellis Park has and Saratoga once had. I'd also figure out a way to run 1 1/16 races on the main track.
A second wire, 1/16th mile farther toward the clubhouse turn.

[Robert Fischer]

good stuff.

I am a big fan of tracks with the turf course outside of the dirt course - could be fun to experiment with that type of design as well. :ThmbUp:

[Southieboy]

Trying this again. Main track (Tapeta) is 1 1/8M while Oval Turf is 1M.

[Thomas Roulston]

Here's another variation.

Note the two different far turns on the Inner Turf Course; this is what the Hawthorne turf course would look like today if the original far turn on the 6-furlong turf course had not been dismantled when it was lengthened to 7 furlongs in 1987.

[delayjf]

A second wire, 1/16th mile farther toward the clubhouse turn

Thats one possibility - Hollywood park is a 1 1/8 track that runs races at 1 1/16 - Hol stretch is not as long as Saratoga's so it leaves them with more room running into the first turn.

[cj]

good stuff.

I am a big fan of tracks with the turf course outside of the dirt course - could be fun to experiment with that type of design as well. :ThmbUp:

I guess it is good if the majority of races are on turf. Otherwise, what is the appeal? I personally like standing on the rail as horses come down the stretch close to me, hearing the noise and seeing the power.

[Robert Fischer]

I guess it is good if the majority of races are on turf. Otherwise, what is the appeal? I personally like standing on the rail as horses come down the stretch close to me, hearing the noise and seeing the power.

good points. :ThmbUp:

[Robert Fischer]

I guess it is good if the majority of races are on turf. Otherwise, what is the appeal? I personally like standing on the rail as horses come down the stretch close to me, hearing the noise and seeing the power.


We fully understand that dirt is the leader in the industry.
That in mind
best case scenario:


DIRT = 1 MILE INNER same size copy of Churchill Downs

TURF = 1 1/2 MILES MAIN TRACK.
Moderate/light Euro(French) influences (slight undulating, hearty blend of grass, design input from course designer).

Accessible Infield to provide limited standing room only.


ideal replacement course = Gulfstream (but save the timers!) - chance to emphasize top class turf racing just a bit more without going crazy. Winter racing provides further opportunity here as NY doesn't offer turf in winter.
1st alternateArlington Park
Upgrading Million day with a better turf course, getting rid of the poly and adding a higher quality surface (dirt). Million Day alone makes it a great upgrade. They also have a synthetic main-track so they are a little different from the norm to start. Other than the on track dirt fans everything is a big upgrade here, and million day fans see the stars on the outer turf "Main Track".

Either Instantly becomes viable Breeders Cup destination(part of a deal regarding upgrade/ first few years?) and well liked by euros.

[Thomas Roulston]

The latest one I posted was actually the very first one I designed - only without the multiple far turns on the Inner Turf Course (adding that feature after I discovered the history of the turf course at Hawthorne).

I actually came up with this schematic before Colonial Downs opened, but I used 1,106 feet as the length of the stretch (that was the stretch length at the former Green Mountain Race Track in Vermont!) and 333 feet from the wire to the first turn (also used at Green Mountain).

Later, taking inspiration from Ellis Park, where the turns are longer (5/16 mile each) than the straightaways (1/4 mile each), I lengthened the stretch to 1,320 feet but shortened the distance from the finish line to the first turn to 165 feet (Fair Grounds uses 150 and Hawthorne 184, so why not? I got those last two figures from old issues of the American Racing Manual; info on how long it is from the finish line to the first turn is extremely hard to come by using contemporary sources!).

The backstretch chute on the Main Track is 1 1/16 miles, by the way - I didn't like the 495-foot run from the 1 1/16 mile start to the 1,155-foot (clubhouse) turn on the Inner Dirt Track; you'd have to scratch to 10 from that position, and that's contrary to one of the things I'm trying to accomplish with all this (it also makes this design unique because Belmont and Colonial Downs have 1 1/8-mile backstretch chutes and many tracks have 1-mile chutes, but no track has a 1 1/16-mile backstretch chute; it also allows me to indulge a pet fantasy of mine - 1m70y races around one turn!).

[nearco]

What would be the need for 1m70y races on a layout like that?
I thought the only reason 1m 40/70y races were carded was because of the inability of a track to safely run a 1m race.
If you have the ability to do 1m and 1m1/16, then you hardly need an intermediate distance between the two.

[delayjf]

Tracks like Delmar and Santa Anita adjust for the quick run into the first turn of 1 mile races by extending the run-up to about 70 to 80 yards.

[shouldacoulda]

I don't see a hotdog stand near the turn for home. That's a good thing. It seems most of the horses I play stop off there for a hotdog and a beer after they turn for home. Like the 3 horse the other night at Delta Downs. I guess they figure what's the rush!

[nearco]

Tracks like Delmar and Santa Anita adjust for the quick run into the first turn of 1 mile races by extending the run-up to about 70 to 80 yards.

Yes, I believe that is the only reason races at those distances exist, because of the short run up to the first turn at certain tracks. So if you have a track that can handle 8f and 8.5f with no problem, then why would you even need to card those distances?

[VastinMT]

I love open speculation and dreaming, but is there anyone here who could put a price tag to all this?

And how much does it cost to maintain a standard race track (talking about the racing surfaces and equipment) each year?

I'm already assuming that no one in 2012 America would get their money back on these plans, but I'd love to be wrong. Not trying to be a party pooper, just trying to understand how the world of horseracing works.

[Robert Fischer]

Yes, I believe that is the only reason races at those distances exist, because of the short run up to the first turn at certain tracks. So if you have a track that can handle 8f and 8.5f with no problem, then why would you even need to card those distances?

I don't think it's a major issue. Think you are right (without going back and checking the first turn.) Sometimes things can still be learned in rough drafts.

[Robert Fischer]

I love open speculation and dreaming, but is there anyone here who could put a price tag to all this?

And how much does it cost to maintain a standard race track (talking about the racing surfaces and equipment) each year?

I'm already assuming that no one in 2012 America would get their money back on these plans, but I'd love to be wrong. Not trying to be a party pooper, just trying to understand how the world of horseracing works.

If you build it...
They will come!
JAMES EARL JONES

Also interested if someone knows the type of figures we are looking at.

[JB3]

Cant we just have a basic Tampa-esk track? Up to 7F sprints and 1M (at two turns) with 10 horses max (if TAM still races a flat mile)

I just think too many tracks like the NEW gulfstream or laurel are too big or Keeneland with that damn Beard course of 7F and 184 ft

"damn it man, I had the winner on my 7F KEE figures but that 184ft got me in the end":lol:

[Gallop58]

Hopefully this doesn't hijacking things, but I'd like to ask a question I have never found a good answer to. Where did the 70yds in 1M70yds come from originally (the very first instance)? 70yds is not a round fraction of a mile and seems very arbitrary. I assume it started at one track somewhere for a specific reason, either because of course design or someone had to go measure the gate placement of a traditional starting point.
History lesson please!