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View Full Version : Greg Gilcrist: "They don't have racehorse people making decisions,"


andymays
05-04-2010, 02:48 PM
Gilchrist's good-bye leaves a gap

http://www.drf.com/news/article/112682.html

Excerpt:

"I always thought I'd be a trainer till I was 100," said Gilchrist, who turned 62 on April 24. "It makes me sad walking away from it, but I'm not walking away from the sport I knew."

Excerpt:

Gilchrist's frustrations with racing had grown in recent years.

"They don't have racehorse people making decisions," he said. But he said he could still talk for hours about all the good things in racing.

46zilzal
05-04-2010, 02:50 PM
"They don't have racehorse people making decisions," he said. But he said he could still talk for hours about all the good things in racing.
EXACTLY the effing MBA's have taken over and they do not know SH*!

We are drowning in them at Hastings.

When you make a deal with the devil (casinos) you get what you asked for. This is the sentiment of one of the judges who is retiring in May.

I am going to start wearing a black arm band as of this weekend to work.

andymays
05-04-2010, 02:53 PM
Gilchrist's good-bye leaves a gap

http://www.drf.com/news/article/112682.html

Gilchrist's frustrations with racing had grown in recent years.

"They don't have racehorse people making decisions," he said. But he said he could still talk for hours about all the good things in racing.


I can't tell you how many of these guys feel the same way.

JustRalph
05-04-2010, 03:18 PM
EXACTLY the effing MBA's have taken over and they do not know SH*!


How come when I say the same thing in off - topic you call me an uneducated Knuckle dragging Neanderthal ?

Amazing how that works huh? ;)

Tom
05-04-2010, 03:29 PM
Maybe I'm missing it, but where does it say why he is upset with those people making decisions? Seems the article never really reported anything specific.
:confused:

andymays
05-04-2010, 04:38 PM
Maybe I'm missing it, but where does it say why he is upset with those people making decisions? Seems the article never really reported anything specific.
:confused:


The quote is his but he isn't specific.

I know Stronach (Magna) who owns both Golden Gate and Santa Anita has a lot of these Trainers pulling their hair out with some of their decisions.

California racing is losing a lot of good people. Some are going east and some are hanging it up.

Robert Goren
05-04-2010, 05:17 PM
The last thing racing needs is horse people making the decisions. If let the people who make it all possible, the gamblers, racing would be a lot different. I think you would have to look long and hard to find a horse person who is willing cut the takeout % dedicated to purses. You could present all the data in the world that the total amount of money for purses would actually go up, but not a one would believe you. JMO

Robert Goren
05-04-2010, 05:22 PM
The quote is his but he isn't specific.

I know Stronach (Magna) who owns both Golden Gate and Santa Anita has a lot of these Trainers pulling their hair out with some of their decisions.

California racing is losing a lot of good people. Some are going east and some are hanging it up. More Importantly, California racing is losing a lot good gamblers. Some are moving to other tracks and some are moving to other things to gamble on. JMO

andymays
05-04-2010, 05:22 PM
The last thing racing needs is horse people making the decisions. If let the people who make it all possible, the gamblers, racing would be a lot different. I think you would have to look long and hard to find a horse person who is willing cut the takeout % dedicated to purses. You could present all the data in the world that the total amount of money for purses would actually go up, but not a one would believe you. JMO

Roger Stein on every Saturday and Sunday at 8:00 am.


http://www.am830klaa.com/index.htm

andymays
05-04-2010, 05:23 PM
More Importantly, California racing is losing a lot good gamblers. Some are moving to other tracks and some are moving to other things to gamble on. JMO


Not enough horses and the purses are too low to attract any. There is nothing on the horizon to change that.

bks
05-04-2010, 08:37 PM
In case anyone didn't notice, it's a bit of an epidemic in the US.

Horseracing = "They don't have racehorse people making decisions,"

Healthcare = "They don't have medical people making decisions,"

News Media = "They don't have journalists making decisions,"

Music Industry = "They don't have musicians making decisions,"

Education = "They don't have educators making decisions,"

Tom
05-04-2010, 08:40 PM
Well, KY and FLA horse people made some nifty decisions. No one allowed to bet their tracks......great stuff.

Can't be much ado about anything here if they couldn't come with a single thing he thought was wrong.

Hanover1
05-04-2010, 09:02 PM
I am all for people who understand marketing,promotion,feasability study, and the like, that are educated in these things. Just how you educate someone to make a smart decision remains to be seen. I suspect Gilchrist was referring to the lack of people that represent horsemen who actually are allowed to make ANY decisions, smart or otherwise. We all understand the topics that have caused frustrations for horseman and gamblers alike. How many gamblers are allowed to make any decisions of any consequence? Would we need HANA if properly represented and heard, with a vote that counts, and could sway decisions in case of a tie? In short, gamblers and horsemen are not politicians, however we may come off like one when explaining an off the board effort by a chalk.... :D

ManeMediaMogul
05-04-2010, 09:33 PM
The last thing racing needs is horse people making the decisions. If let the people who make it all possible, the gamblers, racing would be a lot different. I think you would have to look long and hard to find a horse person who is willing cut the takeout % dedicated to purses. You could present all the data in the world that the total amount of money for purses would actually go up, but not a one would believe you. JMO

Racing was a lot better off (and the takeouts were lower) when racing people made the decisions. The "gamblers" as you call them are a small fraction of the handle.

The bulk of the handle comes from the participants - owners, trainers, grooms, jockey agents and countless racetrack employees who are on the scene with open wallets every day.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry. That is a myth.

We (racing people) subsidize our own game. If we depended on on-track wagering and ADW from the "gamblers" for the purses we'd be running for less than the peanuts we run for today.

JustRalph
05-04-2010, 09:48 PM
I am getting old...........isn't this the trainer that had that speedster that died of Cancer a few years back?

I apologize for not remembering the horses name............ ???

andymays
05-04-2010, 10:04 PM
I am getting old...........isn't this the trainer that had that speedster that died of Cancer a few years back?

I apologize for not remembering the horses name............ ???

http://www.drf.com/news/article/112682.html

Excerpt:

Gilchrist trained the 2005 Eclipse Award-winning sprinter, Lost in the Fog, as well as California champions Soviet Problem and Work the Crowd. His other stakes winners include High Resolve, Wild Promises, Beyond Brilliant, Wild Wonder, and Vicarino. A third-generation horseman, Gilchrist began working at the track at a young age for his father, Boots Gilchrist. He saw combat duty in Vietnam with the 82nd Airborne Division of the U.S. Army in the late 60s, and returned to the track after being discharged.

chickenhead
05-04-2010, 10:11 PM
Racing was a lot better off (and the takeouts were lower) when racing people made the decisions. The "gamblers" as you call them are a small fraction of the handle.

The bulk of the handle comes from the participants - owners, trainers, grooms, jockey agents and countless racetrack employees who are on the scene with open wallets every day.


Exhibit A.

cj
05-04-2010, 10:25 PM
Racing was a lot better off (and the takeouts were lower) when racing people made the decisions. The "gamblers" as you call them are a small fraction of the handle.

The bulk of the handle comes from the participants - owners, trainers, grooms, jockey agents and countless racetrack employees who are on the scene with open wallets every day.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry. That is a myth.

We (racing people) subsidize our own game. If we depended on on-track wagering and ADW from the "gamblers" for the purses we'd be running for less than the peanuts we run for today.

That is such a farce. If those guys were betting the majority of the handle, they would all be working for nothing because they would be losing their salaries at the windows.

thespaah
05-04-2010, 10:43 PM
Racing was a lot better off (and the takeouts were lower) when racing people made the decisions. The "gamblers" as you call them are a small fraction of the handle.

The bulk of the handle comes from the participants - owners, trainers, grooms, jockey agents and countless racetrack employees who are on the scene with open wallets every day.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry. That is a myth.

We (racing people) subsidize our own game. If we depended on on-track wagering and ADW from the "gamblers" for the purses we'd be running for less than the peanuts we run for today.
One aspect of horse rsacing people being in charge is this: I have seen quite a few instances where California Horsemen have blocked or limited wagering from outside California. The same refrain each time is the Horsemen want a bigger cut. Ok, fine. I understand. But how is it logical for a group to shut down a source of revenue rather than keep that source but get a little less.
Half a loaf is better than starving.

IMO there should be a balance in management. Track owners and managers should invite and embrace the input from Horsemen. In fact, management should stand shoulder to shoulder with the horsemen in decision making.
The current system is not working well. Let's give audience to those with other ideas. Standing pat with a weak hand is a loser.

chickenhead
05-04-2010, 10:48 PM
maybe if "racing people" ran things they could all get paid in nonrefundable voucher tickets. Why even bother with the paychecks, it's a wasted step. Then you guys could bet even more, and then your salaries would go up.

You guys'd be rich in no time.

kenwoodall2
05-05-2010, 12:47 AM
Is Gilchrist calling all absentee owners "racehorse people" too? Seems to me the bulk of the money that supports racing comes from betting, over 50% off-track; Auction buyers; and owners buying claimers or other horses. So how is it figured that any track employees or any backside workers including trainers, simply betting the money they make? Do they bring new money into racing?

thaskalos
05-05-2010, 03:29 AM
Racing was a lot better off (and the takeouts were lower) when racing people made the decisions. The "gamblers" as you call them are a small fraction of the handle.

The bulk of the handle comes from the participants - owners, trainers, grooms, jockey agents and countless racetrack employees who are on the scene with open wallets every day.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry. That is a myth.

We (racing people) subsidize our own game. If we depended on on-track wagering and ADW from the "gamblers" for the purses we'd be running for less than the peanuts we run for today. It is thinking like this from the "racing people" that infuriates the betting public, and has them leaving this game in droves. If the "racing people" are responsible for the bulk of the mutual handle, why is the handle so small in so many of the minor tracks in this country - even the ones with slot infused purses? Don't the "racing people" subsidize their own game at the minor tracks too?

And why is the national mutual handle plummeting year after year? Is it because the "racing people" are subsidizing their own game less and less?

miesque
05-05-2010, 08:20 AM
Racing was a lot better off (and the takeouts were lower) when racing people made the decisions. The "gamblers" as you call them are a small fraction of the handle.

The bulk of the handle comes from the participants - owners, trainers, grooms, jockey agents and countless racetrack employees who are on the scene with open wallets every day.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry. That is a myth.

We (racing people) subsidize our own game. If we depended on on-track wagering and ADW from the "gamblers" for the purses we'd be running for less than the peanuts we run for today.

You might want to review whatever back of the envelope calculation you used to come to this rather erroneous conclusion, because even by Enron standards the numbers fail to corroborate your postulate.

Horseplayersbet.com
05-05-2010, 08:30 AM
I looked at Fort Erie's pathetic handle numbers on the weekend. Of the average $450,000 in handle, $100,000 came from live handle. Now even if we farcically assume that all that live handle came from horsemen and race track workers, it still doesn't amount to the majority of the handle no matter how you slice it.

depalma113
05-05-2010, 08:44 AM
Racing was a lot better off (and the takeouts were lower) when racing people made the decisions. The "gamblers" as you call them are a small fraction of the handle.

The bulk of the handle comes from the participants - owners, trainers, grooms, jockey agents and countless racetrack employees who are on the scene with open wallets every day.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry. That is a myth.

We (racing people) subsidize our own game. If we depended on on-track wagering and ADW from the "gamblers" for the purses we'd be running for less than the peanuts we run for today.

Wow. I hope you don't have an MBA.

Beluah Park April 24th 2010. A randomly selected date and a randomly selected track.

Total Purse value for the day.........$26,400
Total WPS Pool............................$96,561
Total Exotic Pool.........................$223,328

So the owners, trainers and others are subsidizing a purse total of $26,400 with over $300,000 in wagers?

At a loss rate of 20% via takeout, they would have lost over $60,000 in one day. They must be making some serious coin on the backstretch if they can afford those kind of daily losses.

andymays
05-05-2010, 08:45 AM
I'm sure Gilcrist is talking about Racing Executives, Racing Officials, and those who run ADW's who have/had very little experience within the Industry before being appointed to important positions. Sometimes guys/gals like that make decisions that seem reasonable to them but have disastrous consequences for other people within the industry.

rwwupl
05-05-2010, 09:22 AM
Racing was a lot better off (and the takeouts were lower) when racing people made the decisions. The "gamblers" as you call them are a small fraction of the handle.

The bulk of the handle comes from the participants - owners, trainers, grooms, jockey agents and countless racetrack employees who are on the scene with open wallets every day.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry. That is a myth.

We (racing people) subsidize our own game. If we depended on on-track wagering and ADW from the "gamblers" for the purses we'd be running for less than the peanuts we run for today.



Wow!... This supports what many have said, that if you asked the backstretch and a lot of trainers where the purse money comes from... they could not tell you... and further they do not give a damn.

They are living with their head buried in their own cocoon...wow!

Robert Goren
05-05-2010, 10:45 AM
Racing was a lot better off (and the takeouts were lower) when racing people made the decisions. The "gamblers" as you call them are a small fraction of the handle.

The bulk of the handle comes from the participants - owners, trainers, grooms, jockey agents and countless racetrack employees who are on the scene with open wallets every day.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry. That is a myth.

We (racing people) subsidize our own game. If we depended on on-track wagering and ADW from the "gamblers" for the purses we'd be running for less than the peanuts we run for today.What color is that Koolade you are drinking? Maybe at some very small track, the horse people might make up 5% of what is bet on a good day. There are gamblers out that bet more in a week than all the horse people combined do in a year. I work as teller in college and I knew every race track employee. Yes we did bet, but nothing when compared to the total handle. Every track employee except for the very bottom rung was barred from betting by law. There were some betting trainers, but most never bet a race. I will give this, Jockey agents do bet.

andymays
05-05-2010, 10:58 AM
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/56862/greg-gilchrist-retires-from-training

Excerpt:

“It’s not so much that I want to quit training horses, because I love it,” said Gilchrist. “But here in Northern California, this isn’t even horse racing anymore. Fields are short; races don’t go. You can’t count on a first-level allowance going. I really wonder about the viability of racing up here.”

46zilzal
05-05-2010, 11:02 AM
In case anyone didn't notice, it's a bit of an epidemic in the US.

Horseracing = "They don't have racehorse people making decisions,"

Healthcare = "They don't have medical people making decisions,"

News Media = "They don't have journalists making decisions,"

Music Industry = "They don't have musicians making decisions,"

Education = "They don't have educators making decisions,"
Yes bean counters are calling the shots

andymays
05-05-2010, 11:02 AM
Yes bean counters are calling the shots


Don't forget the Lawyers.

Robert Goren
05-05-2010, 11:06 AM
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/56862/greg-gilchrist-retires-from-training

Excerpt:

“It’s not so much that I want to quit training horses, because I love it,” said Gilchrist. “But here in Northern California, this isn’t even horse racing anymore. Fields are short; races don’t go. You can’t count on a first-level allowance going. I really wonder about the viability of racing up here.” The betters don't enter horses. Why aren't your fellow trainers entering horses? How many stalls at the track are empty? If nearly all the stalls are full, then you have a trainer problem of not wanting to run their horses. JMO

kenwoodall2
05-05-2010, 11:13 AM
Who hires Racing Executives, Racing Officials, and those who run ADW's? Which officials are not former horsemen? How does a track with $26k in purses get horse on the track without a LOT of money injected into it by non-horse people owners?
IMHO breeders and owners ultimately run a geographically segmented TBred racing, with legally and politically weak state boards and track officials- and that allows breeders and owners to keep control of racing, just the way they like it! And the breeding trend is constricting toward Kentucky!
Divide and conquer in the sport of Kings of Commercial Business! Is that the TOBA motto? Who do you think pays the bills and pays the trainers, who have a big voice in racing, except members of TOBA (The Owners, Breeders Absent)?
Stronach, Japanese and Arab tycoons, The Green Monkey owners, Seabiscuit's car dealer-owner, A + M Records Jerry Moss, Real Estate execs. Who sponsors the KY Derby except Visa and Yum- the world's #1 junk food server? All and many more like them the Kings of Commercial Business!

46zilzal
05-05-2010, 11:18 AM
The breeders, the "Dinnies" as he calls them on his book, are the listed culprits who have final say. When Gaines came up with the Breeder's Cup, some breeders balked at the idea until it was disguised as THEIR idea and he was not given the credit he deserved.

Read about it in HEADLESS HORSEMEN

Horseplayersbet.com
05-05-2010, 11:40 AM
Who pays for track operations and purses? Money lost by gamblers (whether it is gamblers losings on horse racing or slots), and money spent on concessions by the betting public.

Who pays for the trainers and their employees? Purse money (for the majority), and the owners, when purse money doesn't cover the bill.

magwell
05-05-2010, 12:16 PM
I'm sure Gilcrist is talking about Racing Executives, Racing Officials, and those who run ADW's who have/had very little experience within the Industry before being appointed to important positions. Sometimes guys/gals like that make decisions that seem reasonable to them but have disastrous consequences for other people within the industry. That's exactly what he is saying and what most everybody on the inside of the game has been saying for years .......:bang:

ManeMediaMogul
05-05-2010, 02:15 PM
Wow. I hope you don't have an MBA.

Beluah Park April 24th 2010. A randomly selected date and a randomly selected track.

Total Purse value for the day.........$26,400
Total WPS Pool............................$96,561
Total Exotic Pool.........................$223,328

So the owners, trainers and others are subsidizing a purse total of $26,400 with over $300,000 in wagers?

At a loss rate of 20% via takeout, they would have lost over $60,000 in one day. They must be making some serious coin on the backstretch if they can afford those kind of daily losses.

At 20%, the take out for the day you used would be $63,977.80. More than enough to pay the $26,400 in purses, leaving $37,577.80 to divy up between track management, the state of Ohio and anybody else who gets a piece of the pie. The rest of the money - $236,022.20 - is returned to those with cashable tickets.

How many of those wagered dollars were bet by people who have absolutely no interest in a racehorse, broodmare, yearling, weanling or stallion and are not a trainer, jockey, jockey agent, groom, hotwalker, stable employee or work for a racing association or a track caterer?

I know a guy who bets literally millions of dollars a year at Beulah, River Downs and Thistle but he is a Thoroughbred owner. It would take a whole lot of folks sitting around making $5 bets on TVG to make up for his action.

DeanT
05-05-2010, 02:23 PM
Maybe at some very small track, the horse people might make up 5% of what is bet on a good day. There are gamblers out that bet more in a week than all the horse people combined do in a year.

With 89% of wagering in the US coming from offtrack outlets and the internet, by definition, local trainers and backstretch workers make-up a very small percentage of the total local betting pools.

Hanover1
05-05-2010, 02:56 PM
Who pays for track operations and purses? Money lost by gamblers (whether it is gamblers losings on horse racing or slots), and money spent on concessions by the betting public.

Who pays for the trainers and their employees? Purse money (for the majority), and the owners, when purse money doesn't cover the bill.
Owners pay for the trainers..out of their own pockets, not with racing monies, unless in the black. When in the red, they still pay to have the horses trained...not bettors.

Horseplayersbet.com
05-05-2010, 03:12 PM
Owners pay for the trainers..out of their own pockets, not with racing monies, unless in the black. When in the red, they still pay to have the horses trained...not bettors.
I realize that is how it technically works regarding how trainers are paid.
And I did say that owners pay out monies that don't come from bettors.

Owners probably have a collective takeout of 30%-40% on average in North America. In slot jurisdictions it is much lower. Much of what owners lose is on overpaying for horses, or depreciation of horses.

But it is the gamblers who pay for the racetrack operations and the purse accounts. Owners do not contribute to either.

Horseplayersbet.com
05-05-2010, 03:16 PM
At 20%, the take out for the day you used would be $63,977.80. More than enough to pay the $26,400 in purses, leaving $37,577.80 to divy up between track management, the state of Ohio and anybody else who gets a piece of the pie. The rest of the money - $236,022.20 - is returned to those with cashable tickets.

How many of those wagered dollars were bet by people who have absolutely no interest in a racehorse, broodmare, yearling, weanling or stallion and are not a trainer, jockey, jockey agent, groom, hotwalker, stable employee or work for a racing association or a track caterer?

I know a guy who bets literally millions of dollars a year at Beulah, River Downs and Thistle but he is a Thoroughbred owner. It would take a whole lot of folks sitting around making $5 bets on TVG to make up for his action.
On track handle accounted for $29,550 that day. $300,000 came from off track (which was most likely at one fifth to one third the takeout).

Kind of puts your numbers out of whack.

Foolish Pleasure
05-05-2010, 03:36 PM
I would have retired two yrs ago if I was this idiot.

Took two speedballs off of speed favoring mid western dirt tracks,
shipped them to anti early speed california and both broke down shortly thereafter,

one was Indyanne-I forget the name of the other. Either is an idiot for running speedballs on closer's tracks,
or knew the horses were unsound and chose to run them on a more forgiving synthetic track-


either way had he retired two yrs ago it would not have happened.

rwwupl
05-05-2010, 03:37 PM
On track handle accounted for $29,550 that day. $300,000 came from off track (which was most likely at one fifth to one third the takeout).

Kind of puts your numbers out of whack.



Kind of sounds like some backstretch people think that the owners of the horses would race their horses and pay for all expenses without any "gamblers" at all, and no purses to run for... just because they enjoy the sport.

I have an idea, just hang up a sign, "no gambling allowed" and another sign "millionaires only" and see how long you have a job.

I am amazed at the naive thinking of some racetrack people.

No wonder this game is in trouble.

Cadillakin
05-05-2010, 03:49 PM
Gilrchrist is quitting because his stable is evaporating.. He's got all of 3 horses. A man can't pay the bills with 3 horses.

If he had 20 horses instead of THREE, he'd still be in the game.

The game is declining. Gilchrist is a casualty.. In the scheme of things, he's no more important than the dozens of grooms that are no longer working in California, or the hundreds of farm workers in Kentucky that are without jobs. Nobody is happy when they have to leave a job they love.. But as for blaming it on others, imo, it's just frustration.. He's simply another man that could no longer compete in the current economic conditions.

He had a good career. The game goes on without him...

kenwoodall2
05-05-2010, 04:16 PM
"I know a guy who bets literally millions of dollars a year at Beulah, River Downs and Thistle but he is a Thoroughbred owner."
He should be a member of both TOBA AND HANA because big or small, he is still a horseplayer!!

andymays
05-05-2010, 06:43 PM
He wins his last race with the chalk in the 5th at Hollywood.

Hanover1
05-05-2010, 08:32 PM
They purchase the product.......

rwwupl
05-06-2010, 09:33 AM
They purchase the product.......


Not much, anymore...Have you noticed the trend?

andicap
05-06-2010, 09:52 AM
With 89% of wagering in the US coming from offtrack outlets and the internet, by definition, local trainers and backstretch workers make-up a very small percentage of the total local betting pools.

Maybe all those people he mentioned are betting into off-shore accounts in order to get the rebates.:)

kenwoodall2
05-06-2010, 10:44 AM
Maybe all those people he mentioned are betting into off-shore accounts in order to get the rebates.:)
All those losing Ca trainers are betting on laptops instead of training?
Where did G rate among trainer Plubber win %?

rrbauer
05-06-2010, 12:23 PM
Racing was a lot better off (and the takeouts were lower) when racing people made the decisions. The "gamblers" as you call them are a small fraction of the handle.

The bulk of the handle comes from the participants - owners, trainers, grooms, jockey agents and countless racetrack employees who are on the scene with open wallets every day.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry. That is a myth.

We (racing people) subsidize our own game. If we depended on on-track wagering and ADW from the "gamblers" for the purses we'd be running for less than the peanuts we run for today.

This comment has to be "tongue in cheek". If it isn't, then somebody needs to tell you what a crummy job you're doing...in all facets, from the show that you're putting on to the financial results that you're experiencing!

shouldacoulda
05-06-2010, 11:00 PM
Racing was a lot better off (and the takeouts were lower) when racing people made the decisions. The "gamblers" as you call them are a small fraction of the handle.

The bulk of the handle comes from the participants - owners, trainers, grooms, jockey agents and countless racetrack employees who are on the scene with open wallets every day.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry. That is a myth.

I agree with the first part of your statement but not the second. Maybe at the track but most of the time if you look at the handle numbers more money is wagered by offtrack venues.
It's the calculator kids with their shiny MBA's that ruin pretty much everything related to business. All they know is cut expenses, not how do we grow the business and increase market share. It is putting the cart before the horse. And people pay to be brainwashed like this? :lol:

miesque1127
05-07-2010, 06:01 AM
I would have retired two yrs ago if I was this idiot.

Took two speedballs off of speed favoring mid western dirt tracks,
shipped them to anti early speed california and both broke down shortly thereafter,

one was Indyanne-I forget the name of the other. Either is an idiot for running speedballs on closer's tracks,
or knew the horses were unsound and chose to run them on a more forgiving synthetic track-


either way had he retired two yrs ago it would not have happened.

He's anything but an idiot.

Your lack of respect for a man that has accomplished more in his life than you have or can ever imagine for yourself, just shows what a ****ing dickhead you are. You have no idea why those horses broke down. None. Don;t act like you do.

Just shut your punk-ass bitch mouth.

rwwupl
05-07-2010, 09:47 AM
This comment has to be "tongue in cheek". If it isn't, then somebody needs to tell you what a crummy job you're doing...in all facets, from the show that you're putting on to the financial results that you're experiencing!


I agree 100%. This game has more than its share of self serving,twisted ideas than any other...and the results speak for itself.

Those on a suicide mission economically seem to be protected by those in power. Economic reality will eventually right the ship, or....

andymays
05-08-2010, 11:08 AM
Gilcrist coming up on Roger Stein. 8:00 am pst

http://www.am830klaa.com/aboutStreaming.htm

Archived show up a couple of hours after the live show.

http://www.rogerstein.com/radio/archive2.asp

jamey1977
05-08-2010, 02:40 PM
Racing was a lot better off (and the takeouts were lower) when racing people made the decisions. The "gamblers" as you call them are a small fraction of the handle.

The bulk of the handle comes from the participants - owners, trainers, grooms, jockey agents and countless racetrack employees who are on the scene with open wallets every day.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry. That is a myth.

We (racing people) subsidize our own game. If we depended on on-track wagering and ADW from the "gamblers" for the purses we'd be running for less than the peanuts we run for today. On this circuit- The Santa Anita -Hollywood- Del Mar Circuit . There's about 15 players running the win board they probably run the exacta board too. In my estimates, they have about 55 to 57 percent of the win pool. They're betting anywhere from 400 dollars to win to 1000 dollars to win. I know this when I see horses that are picked by no one, no public handicapper, and they are bet down. These cats are timing the workouts, other handicapping skills that the public handicappers don't even bother with. How many public handicappers get out the charts and work for 6 hours. ? Hell. I knew one , some days, he was so lazy. He just punched the damn picks of his , in. By head. He was so lazy. Anyway. The 2 dollars bettors, these cigarette chain smokers who always shut us out,that's why the serious ones play from home. They waste their money on the exactas and trifectas and lose their butts. Some of the other pools across the country. One Fair had a win pool with the favorite with 366 dollars on him. Jeez, my 80 dollar win bet. Would make him, even money. Most of the owners don't like wasting their money. How many times did the owner fall for that crap.? Oh he's gonna do great. I'll bet 1000 dollars to win. He watches the horse get his butt kicked and he's out 1000 dollars . They're just like me, they hate losing. Most of them quit doing that crap. long ago. But sometimes, you never know.

Hanover1
05-08-2010, 02:49 PM
Kind of sounds like some backstretch people think that the owners of the horses would race their horses and pay for all expenses without any "gamblers" at all, and no purses to run for... just because they enjoy the sport.

I have an idea, just hang up a sign, "no gambling allowed" and another sign "millionaires only" and see how long you have a job.

I am amazed at the naive thinking of some racetrack people.

No wonder this game is in trouble.
And they can put them away after breezing them in the morning too...act as their own agent, ride there own races, and write the rules......see how far fetched we are getting here?

Hanover1
05-08-2010, 02:53 PM
I agree with the first part of your statement but not the second. Maybe at the track but most of the time if you look at the handle numbers more money is wagered by offtrack venues.
It's the calculator kids with their shiny MBA's that ruin pretty much everything related to business. All they know is cut expenses, not how do we grow the business and increase market share. It is putting the cart before the horse. And people pay to be brainwashed like this? :lol:
:ThmbUp:

Hanover1
05-08-2010, 02:56 PM
Not much, anymore...Have you noticed the trend?
Owners are owners....who are you referring to? They do supply the horseracing product ala flesh, yes?

Fager Fan
05-08-2010, 09:19 PM
The owners should run this sport, but they don't. That is the key to racing's problem.

As for the idea that handicappers should have some control, that's ridiculous. I put money into the pockets of Microsoft, Home Depot, and a thousand other companies a year - that doesn't make me deserving of any control over how they run their businesses. I'm simply the customer, just as handicappers are racing's customers.

But don't go getting all excited and insulted because I think the customer's very important, for reasons obvious to even a teenager. Owners understand this too, and I think the handicappers have no greater friend than the owners.

Now, how do we get the owners in control of the sport?

Horseplayersbet.com
05-08-2010, 09:44 PM
The owners should run this sport, but they don't. That is the key to racing's problem.

As for the idea that handicappers should have some control, that's ridiculous. I put money into the pockets of Microsoft, Home Depot, and a thousand other companies a year - that doesn't make me deserving of any control over how they run their businesses. I'm simply the customer, just as handicappers are racing's customers.

But don't go getting all excited and insulted because I think the customer's very important, for reasons obvious to even a teenager. Owners understand this too, and I think the handicappers have no greater friend than the owners.

Now, how do we get the owners in control of the sport?

The owners control the sport? Why? What do they know about attracting horseplayers? They are simply the suppliers. That is like having suppliers control Wal Mart.

The owners basically have run the sport and that is why it is in the shape it is in. Look at who has run the tracks for years. The Willmots in Canada for example. Before that EP Taylor.

Nowadays, the horsemen groups stand in the way of any meaningful takeout decrease in many cases.

There are horsemen who get it though. Unfortunately, they make up the minority.

Owners should get out of the way, and leave it to someone who understands the customer.

And by all means, that doesn't mean the majority of current track owners understand the customer either.

Fager Fan
05-08-2010, 11:08 PM
The owners control the sport? Why? What do they know about attracting horseplayers? They are simply the suppliers. That is like having suppliers control Wal Mart.

The owners basically have run the sport and that is why it is in the shape it is in. Look at who has run the tracks for years. The Willmots in Canada for example. Before that EP Taylor.

Nowadays, the horsemen groups stand in the way of any meaningful takeout decrease in many cases.

There are horsemen who get it though. Unfortunately, they make up the minority.

Owners should get out of the way, and leave it to someone who understands the customer.

And by all means, that doesn't mean the majority of current track owners understand the customer either.

The owners own the horses -- meaning they own the "teams" of this sport. They put more money in this sport than anyone, including the handicappers.

Just WHO do you think puts out the product if not the owners? It's either the owners or the tracks, and the tracks haven't done a good job, and half or more couldn't care less about the racing product and would be happy to just have a slots joint.

You DO realize that the horsemen's groups are made up of the trainers, not the owners, right? Horsemen, in general, know about horses but not a thing about big business. Trainers are simply the hired subcontractors of the owners, and they shouldn't be negotiating anything more than their day rate with owners.

The top owners in this sport are great businessmen, and that's why they're in the position of being able to be a top owner. I've never heard a top owner speak of handicappers with anything but respect, and talk of how to make those customers happier. You're a fool to be against the owners taking over the sport - they're the handicappers' kindred spirit, being bigger gamblers than the handicappers, they just gamble in the form of expensive horseflesh instead of bills through the window (though plenty do that too).

Fager Fan
05-08-2010, 11:12 PM
I just realized I'm talking to an ADW - one of racing's leeches.

kenwoodall2
05-08-2010, 11:24 PM
I found these racehorse owners:

CDI chairman Carl F. Pollard
MID, Magna chjairman- Frank Stonach
NYRA CEO Charles Hayward

Penn Nat'l, maybe the most successful track owners, I found so far none owning racehorses.

Robert Goren
05-08-2010, 11:24 PM
The top owners in this sport are great businessmen, and that's why they're in the position of being able to be a top owner. I've never heard a top owner speak of handicappers with anything but respect, and talk of how to make those customers happier. You're a fool to be against the owners taking over the sport - they're the handicappers' kindred spirit, being bigger gamblers than the handicappers, they just gamble in the form of expensive horseflesh instead of bills through the window (though plenty do that too). I have yet to hear or see in print from an owner anything good about handicappers. If you can show me something I will eat my words. I will also say if they ran their main businesses anything like they run their racing operation, they would not have any money to be race horse owners. JMO

Horseplayersbet.com
05-08-2010, 11:27 PM
The owners own the horses -- meaning they own the "teams" of this sport. They put more money in this sport than anyone, including the handicappers.

Just WHO do you think puts out the product if not the owners? It's either the owners or the tracks, and the tracks haven't done a good job, and half or more couldn't care less about the racing product and would be happy to just have a slots joint.

You DO realize that the horsemen's groups are made up of the trainers, not the owners, right? Horsemen, in general, know about horses but not a thing about big business. Trainers are simply the hired subcontractors of the owners, and they shouldn't be negotiating anything more than their day rate with owners.

The top owners in this sport are great businessmen, and that's why they're in the position of being able to be a top owner. I've never heard a top owner speak of handicappers with anything but respect, and talk of how to make those customers happier. You're a fool to be against the owners taking over the sport - they're the handicappers' kindred spirit, being bigger gamblers than the handicappers, they just gamble in the form of expensive horseflesh instead of bills through the window (though plenty do that too).
Look. I used to own horses. That doesn't give me the knowledge by itself to run horse racing.
Frank Stronach was a great Auto's Part businessman, but Magna Entertainment went into bankruptcy.
Most of the directors at racetracks are owners. Meanwhile, horse racing has been going into the dumper losing out to competition that offers lower prices to gamblers.
The owners do run horse racing. And it is failing because horse racing looks after the needs of horse owner over and above understanding the customer.

And no, the owners don't put in more money than the gambler.

The gambler pays for the track operations and the purses. Owners contribute nothing to either of that (outside of nomination fees which go back to the winning owners).

Yes, owners do lose money collectively each year, but nowhere near the 2 billion that is lost by bettors, that is used to pay for purses and track operations.

As for your comment calling ADWs leaches. Well now you've hurt my feelings.

An aside: ADWs are the only growth component right now, and the only chance to attract newbies to the game through innovation and making it easier for a visible winner or two to make it to the surface so as to attract the younger generation to play horse racing. This works when it comes to poker.

How anyone could make the ludicrous statement to have the owners run the game, like it would be a good thing, amazes me.

Fager Fan
05-08-2010, 11:39 PM
Look. I used to own horses. That doesn't give me the knowledge by itself to run horse racing.
Frank Stronach was a great Auto's Part businessman, but Magna Entertainment went into bankruptcy.
Most of the directors at racetracks are owners. Meanwhile, horse racing has been going into the dumper losing out to competition that offers lower prices to gamblers.
The owners do run horse racing. And it is failing because horse racing looks after the needs of horse owner over and above understanding the customer.

And no, the owners don't put in more money than the gambler.

The gambler pays for the track operations and the purses. Owners contribute nothing to either of that (outside of nomination fees which go back to the winning owners).

Yes, owners do lose money collectively each year, but nowhere near the 2 billion that is lost by bettors, that is used to pay for purses and track operations.

As for your comment calling ADWs leaches. Well now you've hurt my feelings.

An aside: ADWs are the only growth component right now, and the only chance to attract newbies to the game through innovation and making it easier for a visible winner or two to make it to the surface so as to attract the younger generation to play horse racing. This works when it comes to poker.

How anyone could make the ludicrous statement to have the owners run the game, like it would be a good thing, amazes me.

ADWs are leeches, and a prime example of racing's problems. You have no business collecting ANY money off the gambling dollar as you give nothing to the sport. You don't own, operate and staff a track, and give a place for owners and trainers to train and race their horses. For some inexplicable reason, you are allowed to siphon off gambling dollars into your own pocket while contributing nothing to the sport.

Horseplayersbet.com
05-08-2010, 11:46 PM
ADWs are leeches, and a prime example of racing's problems. You have no business collecting ANY money off the gambling dollar as you give nothing to the sport. You don't own, operate and staff a track, and give a place for owners and trainers to train and race their horses. For some inexplicable reason, you are allowed to siphon off gambling dollars into your own pocket while contributing nothing to the sport.
There is so much wrong with your line of thinking, I don't know where to begin.
I'll let the others here continue to beat you up on this board while you continue to make outlandish and ludicrous statements.
I'm tired. Long day.
Good night.

Fager Fan
05-09-2010, 12:05 AM
There is so much wrong with your line of thinking, I don't know where to begin.
I'll let the others here continue to beat you up on this board while you continue to make outlandish and ludicrous statements.
I'm tired. Long day.
Good night.

I'm still waiting for the first good punch.

You are a leech, and an example of the idiotic mistakes that racing has made along the way to its current state of decline.

No wonder you don't want owners to run the sport, because they're smart enough to have not let leeches in the door.

Robert Goren
05-09-2010, 12:35 AM
I'm still waiting for the first good punch.

You are a leech, and an example of the idiotic mistakes that racing has made along the way to its current state of decline.

No wonder you don't want owners to run the sport, because they're smart enough to have not let leeches in the door. I don't bet much these days, but if weren't for the "leech" ADW, I would bet exactly zero. Physically i am not able to get to the track very often. If it weren't the ADWs I would lost complete interest in this game along time ago. I think there is a bunch of other people who are in the same boat. The real "leeches" are the trainers who collect their daily fees and come up with one excuse after another for not running their horses. There are no more empty stalls than there was 40 years ago, but there sure is a lot more horses who need 5 weeks between starts. There was a time when a horse that hadn't run in the last 2 1/2 week was an automatic toss. JMO

Fager Fan
05-09-2010, 12:39 AM
I don't bet much these days, but if weren't for the "leech" ADW, I would bet exactly zero. Physically i am not able to get to the track very often. If it weren't the ADWs I would lost complete interest in this game along time ago. I think there is a bunch of other people who are in the same boat. The real "leeches" are the trainers who collect their daily fees and come up with one excuse after another for not running their horses. There are no more empty stalls than there was 40 years ago, but there sure is a lot more horses who need 5 weeks between starts. There was a time when a horse that hadn't run in the last 2 1/2 week was an automatic toss. JMO

The tracks/racing should own the ADWs, not guys like this poster, who does nothing but siphon off profits for his own personal gain, without contributing anything to the racing product.

slewis
05-09-2010, 01:46 AM
The owners own the horses -- meaning they own the "teams" of this sport. They put more money in this sport than anyone, including the handicappers.

Just WHO do you think puts out the product if not the owners? It's either the owners or the tracks, and the tracks haven't done a good job, and half or more couldn't care less about the racing product and would be happy to just have a slots joint.

You DO realize that the horsemen's groups are made up of the trainers, not the owners, right? Horsemen, in general, know about horses but not a thing about big business. Trainers are simply the hired subcontractors of the owners, and they shouldn't be negotiating anything more than their day rate with owners.

The top owners in this sport are great businessmen, and that's why they're in the position of being able to be a top owner. I've never heard a top owner speak of handicappers with anything but respect, and talk of how to make those customers happier. You're a fool to be against the owners taking over the sport - they're the handicappers' kindred spirit, being bigger gamblers than the handicappers, they just gamble in the form of expensive horseflesh instead of bills through the window (though plenty do that too).

I'm going to suggest NYRA elects you a member of their Board of Directors.

You have the same idiotic theories they do...especially that of the "great businessmen" owning the "great horses" and running a gambling enterprise.:lol:

So let me be the first to inform you that well over 90% of these "great businessmen" lose money, often big money, in their racing operations.
How could that be?? After all, they are the "elite" businessmen?

Take it from someone who's swims in both of these pools:
"YOU'D be a fool to be FOR the owners taking over the sport.

Take a look at those on the NYRA board. What gambling expertise do any of them have?:lol:
We all know how the track derives 98% of their income, but there isn't a SINGLE voice of a gambler to lobby on the most important aspect of their business. See the problem Fager?...Or are you, as well, too great of a "businessman" to accept the reality that those high on the perch at racetracks dont really know what they're doing.
Why, because they THINK they are in the "Thoroughbred" business, when in reality, they are in the GAMBLING business.

Horseplayersbet.com
05-09-2010, 08:12 AM
I'm still waiting for the first good punch.

You are a leech, and an example of the idiotic mistakes that racing has made along the way to its current state of decline.

No wonder you don't want owners to run the sport, because they're smart enough to have not let leeches in the door.
Again, it is the owners or the for-owners first that run horse racing now. Most were not smart enough and did not have the foresight to get into the ADW business from the beginning.
As for leeching, I consider myself a marketer. I make a living like a marketer makes money in an attempt to get horseplayers to play. Since I give bonuses I give horseplayers an opportunity to win, much more than any racetrack does. This keeps them in the game longer, and in the long run, will benefit the game by creating more players. I also attract money that may have gone offshore with bookies instead of in the pools.
Are marketers leeches too?
For my efforts, I make a living. The tracks get some of the money as well.
Are OTBs or restaurants that make money per bet leeches too?
How about the owners who get subsidized from slot revenues? Are they leeches too?
No one is stopping the tracks from having their own ADW. In fact, the company I'm an affiliate of sets up tracks that want their own ADW, and very few have taken them up on their offer to date.
And tracks that have their own ADWs have been very bad when it comes to player bonuses (though big bettors are now getting OK compensation from NYRA's ADW). Competition is good for the consumer. What is good for the consumer is good for the industry.

ADWs like mine pay salaries, the racetracks, taxes, etc. and are good for the economy and good for horse racing growth. Monies are also invested in technology which is good for industry growth as well. Isn't that what it is all about?

rwwupl
05-09-2010, 10:35 AM
Following up on the current theme of this thread, I found this exchange on the John Pricci article "Jockeys must follow the Rules...."

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/On-The-Line/comments/jockeys-must-follow-rules-of-racing-stewards-must-punish-those-who-dont/

I think this points out further that the different interests of racing have a lack of understanding of what racing is about as a whole,and the dependency they have on each other to be successful.

Leadership has not brought us together... that is their job.

G. R.#29...

]‘Tis you that does not understand the order of things. Owners, who pay all the bills, certainly do not rely on the gamblers[/B]. As a whole, owners lose money every year. Therefore, it is owners who finance and capitalize the business. A majority do it for enjoyment and excitement, not in expectation of profit.

You give me the impression gamblers are in it only with the objective of profit. In that case they should go to wagering on some inanimate device rather than living, breathing people and horses.

Racing will continue with the thousands of small bettors, to whom making a bet is flavor added to watching a horserace. They don’t whine when thy lose.

Joe #27 and Richard #28 have said it better and with brevity. That is my last word on it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

This response from N.K. #33...

Mr. G.R.

Sorry you’ve decided to discontinue the conversation.

Unfortunately, your conception of who are racing’s customers is why the game is in such dire straits. Dairy farmers would not invest hundreds of thousands of dollars if their were no customers to buy their milk. Nor would Coke bottle its beverage, nor movie producers make their films, if they had no customers.

Your notion Thoroughbred racing operates on some level different from other forms of commerce is ludicrous.

Racing’s customers are horseplayers. The takeout extracted from bets, along with concessions, etc, are why there are purse accounts which pay out to winning horsemen and revenue for racetracks to operate.

If there was no money from these sources, there would be no (or very few) owners to race their horses, and their would be no market for breeders to sell, and there would certainly be no racetracks at which to race for the few owners and breeders who pursued their nonpaying hobby.

Those scattered folks who remained would be back to one-on-one racing between each other, putting up their own stakes and competing on their own homemade ovals, just as it was here in America during the 1700s.

Do you seriously think racing as we know it would exist without gambling? Make no mistake. Without average to large bettors, handle would plummet dramatically. The small bettors you mentioned are important to the prosperity of the game, but they are the cherry on top of the sundae. Full-time and dedicated weekend players are the sundae.

Personally, I agree with your comment that bettors shouldn’t whine when they lose. This has nothing to do with that. For starters, Desormeaux’s ride had no impact on my Derby wagers.

More importantly, participants in any pastime deserve a fair deal. Far too often in racing, they don’t get it, and racing officials and important participants like yourself (in this case) don’t seem to care.

How would you react if you sold a horse at auction, got stiffed by the buyer, and no one cared, or helped you recover your investment? That is exactly what you are advocating be done to bettors. Get screwed by a jockey? Tough luck. Don’t whine. Rather, what many are doing is exiting racing and taking up gambling options where the customer is treated as a valued person. Unless racing officials and regulators understand that customer service is crucial to the game’s survival, the sport as we know it will cease to exist.

Fager Fan
05-09-2010, 10:54 AM
I'm going to suggest NYRA elects you a member of their Board of Directors.

You have the same idiotic theories they do...especially that of the "great businessmen" owning the "great horses" and running a gambling enterprise.:lol:

So let me be the first to inform you that well over 90% of these "great businessmen" lose money, often big money, in their racing operations.
How could that be?? After all, they are the "elite" businessmen?

Take it from someone who's swims in both of these pools:
"YOU'D be a fool to be FOR the owners taking over the sport.

Take a look at those on the NYRA board. What gambling expertise do any of them have?:lol:
We all know how the track derives 98% of their income, but there isn't a SINGLE voice of a gambler to lobby on the most important aspect of their business. See the problem Fager?...Or are you, as well, too great of a "businessman" to accept the reality that those high on the perch at racetracks dont really know what they're doing.
Why, because they THINK they are in the "Thoroughbred" business, when in reality, they are in the GAMBLING business.

How many handicappers make money? Is it 10%? Less? By your reasoning, handicappers must not know a thing about handicapping. Or running racing.

Who do you want to run racing? Racing's customer, Joe, the gambler from Peoria?

The owners produce the product that the handicapper, racing's customer, buys. Racing operates just like every other business, and in this business, the handicapper is the customer. The problem with handicappers is that they think they deserve more than the customers of other businesses. You're no different than the McDonald's customer. Either you like them, don't like them, think they're priced too high, priced just right, and either support McDonald's by buying their product or you don't.

Gamblers like to claim their importance, saying that racing wouldn't exist without them. Well, no kidding. Just what businesses do continue to exist without a paying customer? It's no different than Microsoft all the way down to the lady who opens a dress store - they all put out a product and need customers to buy their product.

In racing, it's the owners who put out the product. Like the NFL and every other professional sports, racing should be run by those who put out the big money to put out the product.

Where you're wrong is thinking that everyone is the enemy. Handicappers have long had that chip on their shoulder. The owners aren't your enemy. They understand the importance of the paying customer and would work to make the customer happier than any entity has done before.

Horseplayersbet.com
05-09-2010, 11:12 AM
The racetracks put on the show. Not the horse owners (though many tracks are run by horse owners). The horse owners are the suppliers, just like the farmers are the suppliers at McDonalds. The product in horse racing is GAMBLING. The customer is the HORSEPLAYER.

A horse owner like a gambler has probability going against them when it comes to profiting. A higher percentage of owners make money at it than gamblers do, but the overwhelming majority of owners and gamblers lose money.

The horse owners and horses are similar to the NFL players, not to team owners, and not to the central body that runs the NFL and is very successful at doing it, because they understand and cater to the what the customer wants first and foremost, not so much what the player wants.

What qualifies horse owners to run horse racing?????? It is akin to NFL players running the NFL.

rwwupl
05-09-2010, 11:22 AM
From Fager Fan above:


The owners produce the product that the handicapper, racing's customer, buys. Racing operates just like every other business, and in this business, the handicapper is the customer. The problem with handicappers is that they think they deserve more than the customers of other businesses. You're no different than the McDonald's customer. Either you like them, don't like them, think they're priced too high, priced just right, and either support McDonald's by buying their product or you don't.Gamblers like to claim their importance, saying that racing wouldn't exist without them. Well, no kidding. Just what businesses do continue to exist without a paying customer?

The people (Horseman and the tracks) who are running racing have done a poor job or what can you claim as success? We would not be having this discusson if the trend was satisfactory.

Talk about McDonalds... Do they make the burgers that the cooks want or do they make the burgers that the customers want? If you do not put what the customers want first...your chances are poor for long term success.

If you do not recognize why and where purses come from, and do not recognize why we race at all... you are lost.

We do not race for the Owner,the Racetrack, the Trainer, the Jockey...We race for all of them and first among all we race to attract the customer.

Those who do not focus on that simple fact are the problem, and not part of the solution.

Fager Fan
05-09-2010, 11:30 AM
From Fager Fan above:




The people (Horseman and the tracks) who are running racing have done a poor job or what can you claim as success? We would not be having this discusson if the trend was satisfactory.

Talk about McDonalds... Do they make the burgers that the cooks want or do they make the burgers that the customers want? If you do not put what the customers want first...your chances are poor for long term success.

If you do not recognize why and where purses come from, and do not recognize why we race at all... you are lost.

We do not race for the Owner,the Racetrack, the Trainer, the Jockey...We race for all of them and first among all we race to attract the customer.

Those who do not focus on that simple fact are the problem, and not part of the solution.

Just what part of saying that handicappers are racing's customer makes you think I don't understand who racing's customer is?

slewis
05-09-2010, 11:50 AM
How many handicappers make money? Is it 10%? Less? By your reasoning, handicappers must not know a thing about handicapping. Or running racing.

Who do you want to run racing? Racing's customer, Joe, the gambler from Peoria?

The owners produce the product that the handicapper, racing's customer, buys. Racing operates just like every other business, and in this business, the handicapper is the customer. The problem with handicappers is that they think they deserve more than the customers of other businesses. You're no different than the McDonald's customer. Either you like them, don't like them, think they're priced too high, priced just right, and either support McDonald's by buying their product or you don't.

Gamblers like to claim their importance, saying that racing wouldn't exist without them. Well, no kidding. Just what businesses do continue to exist without a paying customer? It's no different than Microsoft all the way down to the lady who opens a dress store - they all put out a product and need customers to buy their product.

In racing, it's the owners who put out the product. Like the NFL and every other professional sports, racing should be run by those who put out the big money to put out the product.

Where you're wrong is thinking that everyone is the enemy. Handicappers have long had that chip on their shoulder. The owners aren't your enemy. They understand the importance of the paying customer and would work to make the customer happier than any entity has done before.

Your comparison to McDonalds and Microsoft is as laughable as your other posts.

So let me see if I understand your thinking.

Steve Wynn, probably the biggest name in the Vegas casino BUSINESS, should be replaced by some executive who's successes have come in the "Hotel Business"...Yeah, right...that would go over well with the board of directors.

Listen closely genius because this is the way it should be done (except no one in the racing industry has figured this out yet).

Racetracks should have a two part structure, overseen by the CEO who answers to the board of directors.

One part of the "structure" or branch, oversees the horsemen and runs the RACING aspect of the business. A VP is hired accordingly with serious experience in the industry as a horseman.

The SECOND, and more important part of the structure oversees the GAMBLING aspect of the business. For that, an executive with extensive GAMBLING experience should be brought in. Im not suggesting passing out applications at your local OTB. I'm talking about bringing someone in with a resume stacked with GAMBLING operational business. Someone who knows who the professionals are and what they want. Who can figure out what the small guy wants and needs. Who can try new ways to get YOUNG people interested in racing..and go from there.

But when you have a guy like the number 2 at NYRA (Hal Handel) come out and make a statement about betting into a parimutuel pool "too successfully" causing too many "negative settlements"...(Im not even sure you know what that phrase means) that in itself should be a wakeup call for any racetrack owner or politician, that you dont have the right structure of management.

Regardless of what you chirp sir, the reality is that tracks have been run by owner-type executives for a long time now. We now see that this business model, when subject to competition, from each other and from other gambling sources, is not the "easy pickings" these "great businessmen" have had for decades., So NOW, they are failing miserably..and dont know what to do.
Oh, wait, how's about slots...(you know, a form of WELFARE) but would a great businessman go for that? You bet, to coin a phrase. After all, it will allow they're poorly bred and purchased horses to race for more money.
This arguement so against the principles you back it's laughable.
But dont worry, it's not changing. The higher up "great businessmen" are very well politically connected and are willing to die a slow death then face the truth.

Vegas execs just love this shit....less competition in a dying sport.

When you get a real arguement, feel free to post... just do your homework first.

Robert Goren
05-09-2010, 12:09 PM
There is one thing that we can all agree on, Whoever is running the tracks now, they are diong a piss poor job.;)

andymays
05-09-2010, 12:11 PM
There is one thing that we can all agree on, Whoever is running the tracks now, they are diong a piss poor job.;)


And then some.

Jeff P
05-09-2010, 12:15 PM
About 30 years ago a college professors told a room full of us still wet behind the ears business students something so basic that it hardly seemed like college material at the time. He said: If you study the case histories of Fortune 500 companies you will discover that the successful companies are successful for a reason. The successful companies all do market research to identify customer needs and wants. The really successful companies MAKE IT THEIR MISSION TO SATISFY THOSE CUSTOMER NEEDS AND WANTS. Every successful company that you can name practices this. Every failed company that you can name has failed to practice this.
So basic that it hardly seems worth mentioning.

-------------------------

Unless you look at how racing conducts itself as a business.

Just what part of saying that handicappers are racing's customer makes you think I don't understand who racing's customer is?
Maybe the part where you said that ADW operators are leeches?

Consider...

Online revenue from ADWs/Rebaters is the one market market segment where handle growth has taken place.

Why might that be?

Could ADWs and Rebaters be practicing the very thing that a college professor was talking about 30 odd years ago?

Might ADWs and Rebaters be winning new customer business by innovating and satisfying customer needs and wants?

Could it be that rebates/better pricing matters to racing's customers?

Could it be that we like free handicapping contests too?

What about cash bonuses paid to our accounts when we hit certain types of wagers during a promo?

What about Free Handicapping Reports, Past Performances, and improved quaility of streaming video?

Could it be that as customers we are responding to things that ADWs and rebaters are practicing?... While at the same time not repsonding to what the tracks are practicing?

Have the tracks willingly practiced ANYTHING in the way of innovation/satisfying customer needs and wants on their own? Would they if competition from ADWs and Rebaters were suddenly eliminated?

I submit to you the idea that racing is no different than any other type of business. It's really all about It's about satisfying customer needs and wants. Do that and you will win new business and your sales will grow.

Fail to do that and you will find yourself where racing finds itself right now: with sales that are shrinking.

Fail to do it long enough and you will fail to be in business one day.

It's as simple as that.




-jp

.

Fager Fan
05-09-2010, 12:27 PM
About 30 years ago a college professors told a room full of us still wet behind the ears business students something so basic that it hardly seemed like college material at the time. He said: So basic that it hardly seems worth mentioning.

-------------------------

Unless you look at how racing conducts itself as a business.


Maybe the part where you said that ADW operators are leeches?

Consider...

Online revenue from ADWs/Rebaters is the one market market segment where handle growth has taken place.

Why might that be?

Could ADWs and Rebaters be practicing the very thing that a college professor was talking about 30 odd years ago?

Might ADWs and Rebaters be winning new customer business by innovating and satisfying customer needs and wants?

Could it be that rebates/better pricing matters to racing's customers?

Could it be that we like free handicapping contests too?

What about cash bonuses paid to our accounts when we hit certain types of wagers during a promo?

What about Free Handicapping Reports, Past Performances, and improved quaility of streaming video?

Could it be that as customers we are responding to things that ADWs and rebaters are practicing?... While at the same time not repsonding to what the tracks are practicing?

Have the tracks willingly practiced ANYTHING in the way of innovation/satisfying customer needs and wants on their own? Would they if competition from ADWs and Rebaters were suddenly eliminated?

I submit to you the idea that racing is no different than any other type of business. It's really all about It's about satisfying customer needs and wants. Do that and you will win new business and your sales will grow.

Fail to do that and you will find yourself where racing finds itself right now: with sales that are shrinking.

Fail to do it long enough and you will fail to be in business one day.

It's as simple as that.




-jp

.

Hey, Jeff, could it be that ADWs can offer all that because they're leeches who don't contribute anything to the product? And without having to pay for the horses, their training, the track facilities, the track maintenance, and all the employees to put on the product?

Let the ADWs pay to put on the product, and THEN let's see if they can still afford to give you all those little perks that make you support the leeches instead of racing.

johnhannibalsmith
05-09-2010, 12:30 PM
Hey, Jeff, could it be that ADWs can offer all that because they're leeches who don't contribute anything to the product? And without having to pay for the horses, their training, the track facilities, the track maintenance, and all the employees to put on the product?

Let the ADWs pay to put on the product, and THEN let's see if they can still afford to give you all those little perks that make you support the leeches instead of racing.

Better yet, subtract all of the ADWs and see if racing can still afford to pay for the horses, training, facilities, maintenance, and employees.

I am a member of the HBPA in a state without lawful ADW access and things aren't exactly thriving.

Fager Fan
05-09-2010, 12:31 PM
Your comparison to McDonalds and Microsoft is as laughable as your other posts.

So let me see if I understand your thinking.

Steve Wynn, probably the biggest name in the Vegas casino BUSINESS, should be replaced by some executive who's successes have come in the "Hotel Business"...Yeah, right...that would go over well with the board of directors.

Listen closely genius because this is the way it should be done (except no one in the racing industry has figured this out yet).

Racetracks should have a two part structure, overseen by the CEO who answers to the board of directors.

One part of the "structure" or branch, oversees the horsemen and runs the RACING aspect of the business. A VP is hired accordingly with serious experience in the industry as a horseman.

The SECOND, and more important part of the structure oversees the GAMBLING aspect of the business. For that, an executive with extensive GAMBLING experience should be brought in. Im not suggesting passing out applications at your local OTB. I'm talking about bringing someone in with a resume stacked with GAMBLING operational business. Someone who knows who the professionals are and what they want. Who can figure out what the small guy wants and needs. Who can try new ways to get YOUNG people interested in racing..and go from there.

But when you have a guy like the number 2 at NYRA (Hal Handel) come out and make a statement about betting into a parimutuel pool "too successfully" causing too many "negative settlements"...(Im not even sure you know what that phrase means) that in itself should be a wakeup call for any racetrack owner or politician, that you dont have the right structure of management.

Regardless of what you chirp sir, the reality is that tracks have been run by owner-type executives for a long time now. We now see that this business model, when subject to competition, from each other and from other gambling sources, is not the "easy pickings" these "great businessmen" have had for decades., So NOW, they are failing miserably..and dont know what to do.
Oh, wait, how's about slots...(you know, a form of WELFARE) but would a great businessman go for that? You bet, to coin a phrase. After all, it will allow they're poorly bred and purchased horses to race for more money.
This arguement so against the principles you back it's laughable.
But dont worry, it's not changing. The higher up "great businessmen" are very well politically connected and are willing to die a slow death then face the truth.

Vegas execs just love this shit....less competition in a dying sport.

When you get a real arguement, feel free to post... just do your homework first.

What a joke you are, Lewis, to even suggest that the customers run the sport. A joke.

Fager Fan
05-09-2010, 12:41 PM
Better yet, subtract all of the ADWs and see if racing can still afford to pay for the horses, training, facilities, maintenance, and employees.

I am a member of the HBPA in a state without lawful ADW access and things aren't exactly thriving.

Better yet, have the tracks own the ADWs or at minimum, make ADWs pay their fair share, and then see how much better off racing is.

DeanT
05-09-2010, 02:53 PM
Racetracks should have a two part structure, overseen by the CEO who answers to the board of directors.

One part of the "structure" or branch, oversees the horsemen and runs the RACING aspect of the business. A VP is hired accordingly with serious experience in the industry as a horseman.

The SECOND, and more important part of the structure oversees the GAMBLING aspect of the business. For that, an executive with extensive GAMBLING experience should be brought in. Im not suggesting passing out applications at your local OTB. I'm talking about bringing someone in with a resume stacked with GAMBLING operational business. Someone who knows who the professionals are and what they want. Who can figure out what the small guy wants and needs. Who can try new ways to get YOUNG people interested in racing..and go from there.


Very good thought and that cuts to the chase, imo.

Opinion here that seems to jive with your thinking (http://pullthepocket.blogspot.com/2010/05/two-companies-two-different-goals.html). You sound like you have been around racing for a long time.

Fager Fan
05-09-2010, 03:21 PM
Very good thought and that cuts to the chase, imo.

Opinion here that seems to jive with your thinking (http://pullthepocket.blogspot.com/2010/05/two-companies-two-different-goals.html). You sound like you have been around racing for a long time.

Oh, that's perfect. Yes, let's bring in Betfair, the top kahuna of leeches.

Why should racing care at all about the handicappers when you all don't care about racing? You care only about yourselves, but expect the tracks and owners to not care about themselves but instead about you.

This conversation would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

cj
05-09-2010, 03:28 PM
Oh, that's perfect. Yes, let's bring in Betfair, the top kahuna of leeches.

Why should racing care at all about the handicappers when you all don't care about racing? You care only about yourselves, but expect the tracks and owners to not care about themselves but instead about you.

This conversation would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Racing fans have been neglected so long it is reasonable that they now put themselves first.

andymays
05-09-2010, 03:29 PM
Leeches are people too. :D

DeanT
05-09-2010, 03:31 PM
Why should racing care at all about the handicappers when you all don't care about racing? You care only about yourselves, but expect the tracks and owners to not care about themselves but instead about you.

I'm an owner. Maxed out at 15 head. So is Slewis and dozens of others on this board. We are people who realize that racings model has failed and it needs change for the long term, for owners, trainers and bettors.

The worldwide gambling market is north of $700B in handle per year. Racing has fallen from (in real terms) $20B of it to $12B - a paltry percentage. Some of us would like to reverse that trend through pari-mutuel change, not through asking for more government help, because one day that help will go away, and racing will be an emaciated shadow of itself. The status quo assures it.

andymays
05-09-2010, 03:36 PM
There are more HANA board members in this thread than you can shake a stick at.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;)

Just Sayin. ;)

Greg Gilcrist is a legend. He'll be back.

Tom
05-09-2010, 04:56 PM
Oh, that's perfect. Yes, let's bring in Betfair, the top kahuna of leeches.

Why should racing care at all about the handicappers when you all don't care about racing? You care only about yourselves, but expect the tracks and owners to not care about themselves but instead about you.

This conversation would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Sad, yes, to think that anyone not committed ins some institutions thinks like you do! :lol:

Look, here it is in a nutshell - we don not have to care about the tracks. Like we do not have to care about the dishwashers at a diner. Hired help, nothing more. Replaceable hired help. With all the gambling and entertainment options out there today, the tracks should be crawling on their hands and knees to get our business. We can and are going elsewhere. If it were not for ADWs, racing would be dead today.

You are NEVER going to see crowds at tracks like you used to see. Those days are gone and NOTHING will bring them back. The tracks might put on the show, but ADWs bring it to the people. All we really need is one track. Think about it. And we don't even need seats at it. The track itself is now 100% unneccessary, along with most of the people who run it.

It is time the tracks put up thier fair share.....not ADWs. That tracks should get not a cent fromsimulcasting - not a cent. They offer NOTHING so they should get nothing.

Racing is in trouble because of dinosaurs like you. Try putting on the show for only the track people. See how that goes. :lol::lol:

johnhannibalsmith
05-09-2010, 06:38 PM
Racing fans have been neglected so long it is reasonable that they now put themselves first.

It's not only reasonable, it's natural. Racing existed for most of its life as a quasi-monopoly where it was able to treat bettors as junkies in need of a fix and not as customers. Those were the good old days and sadly, they are gone. Because racing has never had to compete until the last several decades, they also never innovated. They never even learned to consider innovation or any other concept that relates to a competitive market.

Now that the gig is up, you have two camps. Those that see innovation from outside entities that allows racing to continue to grow in that lone segment and wish to bequeath it upon the industry as another monopoly. And there are those that want to "leech" off of the gaming competition to stay afloat.

There is still little recognition that racing is now in a fully fledged competitive market and the time has come to innovate and try to compete. But sadly, no. The solution is to point fingers, legislate away the competition or into the competition, and to make pronouncements about how racing should be allowed to backdoor its way into driving a monopolistic facet of the industry only upon the realization of its success through the efforts of innovators.

I'm not surprised with some of what I read here, I hear it everyday. And this is why racing is a failure. No ideas, unless they are someone else's. Woe is me, take pity, fix my failures and then let me reap the benefits. Nothing new here, really.

slewis
05-10-2010, 12:14 AM
I'm an owner. Maxed out at 15 head. So is Slewis and dozens of others on this board. We are people who realize that racings model has failed and it needs change for the long term, for owners, trainers and bettors.

The worldwide gambling market is north of $700B in handle per year. Racing has fallen from (in real terms) $20B of it to $12B - a paltry percentage. Some of us would like to reverse that trend through pari-mutuel change, not through asking for more government help, because one day that help will go away, and racing will be an emaciated shadow of itself. The status quo assures it.

:ThmbUp: