Dumbest Derby Ride?

[Pell Mell]

My vote goes to Joe Talemo.

Before the race Sadler said the object was to leave fast enough to get position and not get hung out on the turn. From what I had read they had been working SC in company and felt that he would rate.

Talemo leaves fast, gets position well before the turn and settles into 2nd about a length back. Instead of sitting, in light of how fast they were going, he goes up to engage the leader right after that fast 1/2. The jock on the 3 also made a premature move.
Is Calvin the only guy that can judge pace a little?
Did Talemo think that horse in front was going to go all the way?:bang:

"Oh, man, we were in the right spot; just where I wanted to be. But when it came time, he couldn't do it. It just wasn't his day."

—jockey Joe Talamo on his first Derby ride with SIDNEY'S CANDY (Candy Ride [Arg]), who ran 17th in the 20-horse field.....

[DJofSD]

The first couple of furlongs belong to the horse. But having said that, I must agree, his ride was about as inexperienced as they come. 22 and change for the opening fraction, I turned to my son and said, 'oh well, those two horses will not be winning today.'

[castaway01]

My vote goes to Joe Talemo.

Before the race Sadler said the object was to leave fast enough to get position and not get hung out on the turn. From what I had read they had been working SC in company and felt that he would rate.

Talemo leaves fast, gets position well before the turn and settles into 2nd about a length back. Instead of sitting, in light of how fast they were going, he goes up to engage the leader right after that fast 1/2. The jock on the 3 also made a premature move.
Is Calvin the only guy that can judge pace a little?
Did Talemo think that horse in front was going to go all the way?:bang:

"Oh, man, we were in the right spot; just where I wanted to be. But when it came time, he couldn't do it. It just wasn't his day."

—jockey Joe Talamo on his first Derby ride with SIDNEY'S CANDY (Candy Ride [Arg]), who ran 17th in the 20-horse field.....






It wasn't a good ride, but the horse had no chance from the 20 hole with his running style, sorry. He's not Big Brown.

[kenwoodall2]

Pre-race Sadler said he would have to give Talamo more instruction than more experienced riders. "JOHN SADLER (Sidney’s Candy (17th), Line of David (18th): “He (Sidney’s Candy) just wouldn’t relax. The pace
was fast and he wouldn’t relax off that horse (leader Conveyance). He used up all his energy."

[DJofSD]

Thanks Ken.

If SC didn't get mentally fried by the race, it'll be interesting to see if he learns something coming out of the race. I hope they don't have to go to extremes to get the colt "trainable."

[andymays]

I bet him :( but I though he would sit about 5 back. He never relaxed and quit badly. Yes, he was way too close to the pace but I doubt he had what it takes on Saturday. Maybe another day but even with a better ride on Saturday I think he folds.

[MaTH716]

I really can't blame Talamo. His post dictated him having to get near the front by the time they went in to the first turn. As far as him not rating goes, in all four previous starts this year SC had the lead at every call. The horse wanted to go.

[Linny]

My feeling is that you can train a speed horse to relax but until he does it in a racing setting, you just don't know for sure. Also, all that training goes out the window when you MUST hustle from post 20 to have any shot at getting in. They spent 3 weeks teaching him to relax and it was all blown when Joe had no choice but to scrub on him in the first 1/4 mile.

[tag]

willie martinez rode a worse race in my oppinion with nobles promise. he had him right behind the leaders on a horse that should have been right about where super saver was. was too close to the pace and made the lead way too soon.

[Rackon]

My feeling is that you can train a speed horse to relax but until he does it in a racing setting, you just don't know for sure. Also, all that training goes out the window when you MUST hustle from post 20 to have any shot at getting in. They spent 3 weeks teaching him to relax and it was all blown when Joe had no choice but to scrub on him in the first 1/4 mile.

Agree - he lit the burners outa the gate to get SC into position by the first turn, couldn't shut 'em off.

Yes, he made mistakes, but don't know if anyone could've got the horse relaxed. Too much stuff goin' on.

Still a nice horse though.

I actually thought Noble's Promise was laying close to SS - have to look at the replay again.

[toussaud]

talamo did nothing wrong. everyone, well alot of people said, that sidney's candy would be forced to urn faster than he wanted to in the beginning of the race, even if he was sitting right off the lead he has never been asked to run as fast as conveyance was going to make him run to be in a stalking position.

he just got cooked.

dumbest derby ride IMHO goes to Johnny V for that early move he made on devil may care.. i think wille was just on a tired horse.


wait..oh this isn't even close now that i think about it. kent d! he just quit. lol. he had 2nd place at the very least in a photo and he just quite and let ice box run right by him.

[proximity]

since every other winner on the card (with the exception of that freaky tup horse) rallied wide down the center of the track..... i'd say any rider who is a slave to the rail.....:blush:

[Robert Fischer]

SC was clearly not a 10 furlong dirt horse, and I don't even think Sadler believed he would stay 10f, as much as trying to entertain the owners. Candy would have gotten eaten up whether he rated wide or sprinted up.

I thought Albara'DOH!' gave a pretty bad ride on Dean's Kitten. Heres one I have to re-examine, due to some positive things going in and the possibility that he just didn't have a chance to show anything with the trip. I'm not sure without reviewing his trip at this point.
I don't know if his goal was to sit in tight behind horses and breath as much mud as possible or what. :bang:

Martinez rode Promise without much respect for a very fast pace, and rode him as if he had tons of horse to spare, rather than trying to be perfect and nurse one who would likely flatten out.

[DJofSD]

Clearly not a 10 furlong horse? Hell, with the ride and trip, he's not even a 9 furlong horse.

[horses4courses]

Sidney's Candy, to me, was one of the few horses in the post parade to give a significant "tell" that he wasn't real happy with the proceedings.

Looking fit, but rolling his ears, and just appearing edgy on his way to the start. I have a feeling the horse hated the wet track.

I think that there wasn't much Joe Talamo could do about it.
It wasn't going to be Sidney's day.
There are more good races down the road. :ThmbUp:

[hogan6]

talamo had no choice. SC was never comfortable. Lezcano made poor decisions.

[JPinMaryland]

Im not about to say Talamo give him a bad ride but I thought going in I had read somewhere the idea was to try to get the horse to relax a little. For some reason I formed an impression that they might try to head right for the rail..

Actually now I remember. this horse appeared to run near the rail in all his previous races. I remember someone mentioned that he seemed to run like Lionheart and i sort of could see that. So I figured the plan might be to get him near the rail right away and see if he could rate. I thought somewhere along the way someone suggested they might try to rate him. Hell that part about rating actually made sense.

i left the horse off my tickets because I thought the 20 hole was too much to overcome unless your Big Brown, but i was worried this horse might just learn to relax and head right for the rail and beat me.

I would still not discount this horse, worried how he comes back from the race though.

[Dahoss9698]

talamo had no choice. SC was never comfortable. Lezcano made poor decisions.

What did Lezcano do that he shouldn't have?

[JustRalph]

What did Lezcano do that he shouldn't have?


From Beyer's article :

Borel's ride was the decisive element of the Derby; few knowledgeable observers would argue that Super Saver won because he is clearly more talented than all of his rivals. He was one of a dozen contenders who appeared, on paper, to be evenly matched, and if this Derby were run again it would probably produce a different result. If it were run with one change of jockeys -- with Borel on Ice Box instead of Jose Lezcano -- then the stretch-running Ice Box might have been draped with a blanket of roses.

when Lezcano saw the yellow silks of Mission Impazible directly in front of him. Mission Impazible took a stride toward the rail, and Lezcano decide to go outside him -- a fateful decision. Mission Impazible immediately moved back outside -- into Super Saver's path. If Lezcano had held his inside position just a moment longer, he might have had a relatively clear path to victory. That's what Borel, with his single-minded focus, might have done. But as soon as Lezcano committed himself to go outside, the 25-year-old's Derby turned into a fiasco. With horses strung across the track in front of him, Lezcano was stopped cold for a stride or two, and he couldn't find an opening through which to accelerate. He had to keep moving farther and farther to the outside until he was the widest of all 20 horses in the field. When Ice Box finally had clear sailing, he outkicked everybody else -- but it was too late to catch Super Saver.

[Dahoss9698]

From Beyer's article :

Borel's ride was the decisive element of the Derby; few knowledgeable observers would argue that Super Saver won because he is clearly more talented than all of his rivals. He was one of a dozen contenders who appeared, on paper, to be evenly matched, and if this Derby were run again it would probably produce a different result. If it were run with one change of jockeys -- with Borel on Ice Box instead of Jose Lezcano -- then the stretch-running Ice Box might have been draped with a blanket of roses.

when Lezcano saw the yellow silks of Mission Impazible directly in front of him. Mission Impazible took a stride toward the rail, and Lezcano decide to go outside him -- a fateful decision. Mission Impazible immediately moved back outside -- into Super Saver's path. If Lezcano had held his inside position just a moment longer, he might have had a relatively clear path to victory. That's what Borel, with his single-minded focus, might have done. But as soon as Lezcano committed himself to go outside, the 25-year-old's Derby turned into a fiasco. With horses strung across the track in front of him, Lezcano was stopped cold for a stride or two, and he couldn't find an opening through which to accelerate. He had to keep moving farther and farther to the outside until he was the widest of all 20 horses in the field. When Ice Box finally had clear sailing, he outkicked everybody else -- but it was too late to catch Super Saver.

So his mistake was moving outside when he saw a horse in front of him going inside? We're talking about split second decisions here. How was he to know the horse would come out again?

I don't know how many Derby's Lezcano has ridden in, but I bet Ice Box and I have no problem at all with the ride. He was unlucky to run into the traffic, but it happens with deep closers. Not to mention it was a 20 horse field. I know most will disagree, but I'd take Lezcano over Borel anyday.

[Greyfox]

I don't know how many Derby's Lezcano has ridden in, but I bet Ice Box and I have no problem at all with the ride. He was unlucky to run into the traffic, but it happens with deep closers. Not to mention it was a 20 horse field. .

Exactly. I bet Ice Box as well. Any time you bet a horse with that running style traffic problems can happen. While I respect Andy's handicapping skills, I doubt that he knows beans about riding in a 20 horse race. (Nor do I for that matter.)

[hogan6]

So his mistake was moving outside when he saw a horse in front of him going inside? We're talking about split second decisions here. How was he to know the horse would come out again?

I don't know how many Derby's Lezcano has ridden in, but I bet Ice Box and I have no problem at all with the ride. He was unlucky to run into the traffic, but it happens with deep closers. Not to mention it was a 20 horse field. I know most will disagree, but I'd take Lezcano over Borel anyday.
Based on exactly what? A greater number of Ky Derby wins? Triple Crown wins? Breeders Cup wins? Seems like Calvin got through to win 2 Derbys in a 20 horse field well off the pace.

[Dahoss9698]

Based on exactly what? A greater number of Ky Derby wins? Triple Crown wins? Breeders Cup wins? Seems like Calvin got through to win 2 Derbys in a 20 horse field well off the pace.

I asked you a question also. What specifically did you think was wrong with Lezcano's Derby ride?

But, I base my opinion on watching them on a daily basis. Calvin is a good rider that becomes a great rider at Churchill. I'm not denying that he is in a different league riding at Churchill than anywhere else.

Unfortunately (for him) Churchill doesn't run 12 months a year. Lezcano is a much better turf rider than he is. And I think he's a better overall rider. Borel has about 20 years on Lezcano and there is a lot more to this game than the Derby and BC. But they have the same number of BC wins and obviously at this point Borel has more Triple crown wins.

[FlyinLate]

I for one don't think Noble's Promise recieved that bad of a ride. The horse had clear distance questions going into the race and they surfaced.

Most derbies are won by that early move turning for home, here he just didn't have enough late due to the distance. Im not saying it was a perfectly timed ride, but I found several other horses with much worse rides. I thought Willie gave him a good chance.

[JPinMaryland]

Nobles made his move at almost the same time as Super Saver, hard to fault the timing. He was a little bit closer to the extremely hot pace.

[PaceAdvantage]

Nobles made his move at almost the same time as Super Saver, hard to fault the timing. He was a little bit closer to the extremely hot pace.He was three lengths closer at the 1/2 and 3/4...