Calvin-on or off??

[Hanover1]

Rumors swirling around concerning Calvin and his relationship with RA of late. Thoughts?? Pure speculation imo, but stranger things have happened. Would you switch? Pros and cons? Grasping at straws while circling the drain, or wishful thinking?

[GaryG]

I would have replaced him after the Woodward. Can't fault his ride today, rated off a moderate pace then just didn't have the gas when he asked her to run. Maybe they want to blame him, but not for this one.

[Robert Fischer]

calvin did a lot for this filly when he first got on her in the mornings and in the races. It doesn't really matter if they switch jockeys at this point.

[andymays]

This is the part where Trainer says to Owner.

'Enough'


It has nothing to do with the jockey.

[Cardus]

Good luck in the Derby tomorrow.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Don't run around telling everyone your horse is 80% or 90% and then pitch the jock when she gets beat. Once you've decided she is 100% and she gets beat, have at it if it makes you feel better.

Maybe we can get Garrett to drag her back third last and then cast one of those Merlin spells on her at the five-sixteenths and then we'll know for sure if she can still run any when he has the final say. :faint:

[Run Nicholas Run]

Don't run around telling everyone your horse is 80% or 90% and then pitch the jock when she gets beat. Once you've decided she is 100% and she gets beat, have at it if it makes you feel better.

Maybe we can get Garrett to drag her back third last and then cast one of those Merlin spells on her at the five-sixteenths and then we'll know for sure if she can still run any when he has the final say. :faint:

exfreakingzactly!!!

[Hanover1]

I would have replaced him after the Woodward. Can't fault his ride today, rated off a moderate pace then just didn't have the gas when he asked her to run. Maybe they want to blame him, but not for this one.
Pretty much my thoughts to this point.....wondering if SA has the key however. She was pretty much a made filly when he inherited her, much like Curlin, who came along on his own as it were. How many has SA developed on his own from jumpstreet of late that shined brightly?? The size of his shed alone is posting most of his big numbers imo......

[Hanover1]

This is the part where Trainer says to Owner.

'Enough'


It has nothing to do with the jockey.
Pulling the plug a race to early perhaps??

[andymays]

Pulling the plug a race to early perhaps??


No, a race too late. ;)

[sonnyp]

we may not have seen the last of rachel, but mark this down, calvin will NOT be on her if she races again.

[Hanover1]

No, a race too late. ;)
If they go again, I would expect a win with Santa Claus in the irons, or major changes would be in order, but I'm not the boss......

[David-LV]

If Rachel runs again she will never win another Grade 1 or Grade 2 race.

This horse is tied and spent. That last race last year took too much out of her and the same can be said of today's race.

_______
David-LV

[Show Me the Wire]

Pretty much my thoughts to this point.....wondering if SA has the key however. She was pretty much a made filly when he inherited her, much like Curlin, who came along on his own as it were. How many has SA developed on his own from jumpstreet of late that shined brightly?? The size of his shed alone is posting most of his big numbers imo......

Oh this brings back memories: :)

I will answer your cogent thought about the problem being with Asmussen's ability, instead of the jockey's lack of skill with the following exchange from 3/19:

FenceBored:

Let's explore the idea that Asmussen is having difficulty gauging Rachel's progress, because Asmussen did not put the original foundation into Rachel.

What do you think?

I see, and when did this first occur to you?

I wonder if it has occured to all the Borel bashers yet?

[Hanover1]

If Rachel runs again she will never win another Grade 1 or Grade 2 race.

This horse is tied and spent. That last race last year took too much out of her.

_______
David-LV
I will withhold judgement on that statement until after next out.....

[Hanover1]

Oh this brings back memories: :)

I will answer your cogent thought about the problem being with Asmussen's ability, instead of the jockey's lack of skill with the following exchange from 3/19:





I wonder if it has occured to all the Borel bashers yet?
As I see it, its time for a tired cliche": "It is what it is"......

[Hanover1]

we may not have seen the last of rachel, but mark this down, calvin will NOT be on her if she races again.
Please provide your source of information. Or are we speculating?
To take him off at this jucture does not appear to be a solution, considering the time spent with reins in hand and knowing her nuances. Opinions abound regarding a lack of a win at this point, but are we not rushing to judgement here in regards to Calvin? Its not like hes a bug. If a kid ever had a hot hand with a horse of mine, I would not care one iota if the horse took a turn that many considered amiss. Stick with what works in that regard, and look for other solutions.

[Robert Fischer]

too late, i already marked it down

[PaceAdvantage]

This is the part where Trainer says to Owner.

'Enough'


It has nothing to do with the jockey.You're an absolute kind of guy, eh? lol No grey areas with you...

It boggles my mind that there are people out there who want to stop on her at this point.

[PaceAdvantage]

If Rachel runs again she will never win another Grade 1 or Grade 2 race.

This horse is tied and spent. That last race last year took too much out of her and the same can be said of today's race.

_______
David-LVOh brother...you guys are way too much...

[PaceAdvantage]

My opinion? Calvin should have been gone long ago...but that's neither here nor there...

Why was he waiting for horses to come to him today? That much I wonder.

[BluegrassProf]

It boggles my mind that there are people out there who want to stop on her at this point.Facepalmingly mind-boggling, and fairly contrary to the direction it seems a whole lot of folks want the game to take.

Hot damn. We should be praying for drama, not hiding from it. :faint:

[Show Me the Wire]

My opinion? Calvin should have been gone long ago...but that's neither here nor there...

Why was he waiting for horses to come to him today? That much I wonder.

He wasn't waiting, Rachel wasn't quick (fast) enough to gain any separation once she took the lead.

[PaceAdvantage]

He wasn't waiting, Rachel wasn't quick (fast) enough to gain any separation once she took the lead.No, he was waiting on horses nearing the end of the turn for home...he certainly wasn't asking her, was he?

[Show Me the Wire]

Borel had her on a long rein and shifted his wieght forward, 3 furlongs out, that is the signal for her to go and she didn't. If Borel would have started whipping her 3 furlongs out, she would have been empty in the stretch.

He asked and she said not yet.

What did you think about Rachel cocking her head to the right from the 1/4 pole to the wire?

[Nikki1997]

Borel had her on a long rein and shifted his wieght forward, 3 furlongs out, that is the signal for her to go and she didn't. If Borel would have started whipping her 3 furlongs out, she would have been empty in the stretch.

He asked and she said not yet.

What did you think about Rachel cocking her head to the right from the 1/4 pole to the wire?

Rachel did not change from the left lead to the right lead once straightened for home .

Either she turned her head to the outside to assist in the lead change or Borel did .

She changed shortly after that , and her head did straighten..

A delayed or awkward lead change reduces efficiency or indicates greenness or a problem with that lead .

Some horses do not change leads or continue to be awkward about it .

I think she may have has done this before, but I do not think this is a chronic issue with her .

[Show Me the Wire]

Rachel did not change from the left lead to the right lead once straightened for home .

Either she turned her head to the outside to assist in the lead change or Borel did .

She changed shortly after that , and her head did straighten..

A delayed or awkward lead change reduces efficiency or indicates greenness or a problem with that lead .

Some horses do not change leads or continue to be awkward about it .

I think she may have has done this before, but I do not think this is a chronic issue with her .

I picked-up on the late lead change as did the TV racing personalities did too.

I didn't see Borel trying to snap her head or shift his wieght to facilitate the change.

Today was not an isolated incident as her head carriage and cocking has been an ongoing issue this year, even in her works.

[Nikki1997]

I picked-up on the late lead change as did the TV racing personalities did too.

I didn't see Borel trying to snap her head or shift his wieght to facilitate the change.

Today was not an isolated incident as her head carriage and cocking has been an ongoing issue this year, even in her works.

Hopefully you would not see such gauche horsemanship as head snapping in the track...

A simple change of weight to facilitate a lead change is made by weighting the appropriate stirrup--also something not so visible .

I am assuming you do not ride .

I am also aware that she has run " crooked " in her works , as well as high headed and mouth gaping in the past to evade the bit .

These may be all evasions, and this type of evasive behavior is common to saddle and race horses .

What appears sometimes to be an evasion may be a reaction to pain or an incorrect aid--the latter more common in dressage training.

Rachel's past incidences of such behavior appeared to me to be an innate impetuosness, impatience, or reaction to restraint.

She sometimes is quite rank, and a ring bit is employed because of this .

That the head tilt was most pronounced before she changed to the right lead logically indicates that facilitating the lead change was the most probable explanation for what we all saw .

During the stretch drive thereafter, she was way more aligned correctly .

But I didn't like the head tilt for reasons I already explained, and with dressage training, I have a practical interest in seeing and riding a horse straight.

Of course in dressage riding, there is also bending for movements, but this hasd zilch to do with raceriding .

[Spalding No!]

The head tilt may be due to an inner ear infection or a brain tumor.

The fact that she also runs in circles supports the diagnosis of neurologic problems.

Treatment:

Fleur De Lis
Molly Pitcher
Ruffian
Beldame
Ladies Classic

[Nikki1997]

What a wag .

[PaceAdvantage]

The fact that she also runs in circles supports the diagnosis of neurologic problems.I laughed.

[JustRalph]

I laughed too

Then remembered I suffer from Vertigo and fell out of my recliner from laughing so hard

[Show Me the Wire]

Hopefully you would not see such gauche horsemanship as head snapping in the track...



:lol: That is a real knee slapper.

As another poster said everything is fine in Rachel land.

[Show Me the Wire]

I laughed.

I would laugh too, if I had backed an odds on favorite that lost two races in the row she should have won easily. its just too funny.

As another poster said we should be praying for drama, well we certainly are getting plenty of drama.

First, regarding the La Troienne, we hear from the asst. trainer, Blassi, that Rachel is Rachelesque again, she is back to being herself, then we hear from the owner, she is maybe 80%, then the trainer wondering where Rachel's speed went, and the jockey gets blamed for waiting for horses. Two unexpected losses in a row provide plenty of drama and laughs for her backers.

[FenceBored]

I would laugh too, if I had backed an odds on favorite that lost two races in the row she should have won easily. its just too funny.

As another poster said we should be praying for drama, well we certainly are getting plenty of drama.

First, regarding the La Troienne, we hear from the asst. trainer, Blassi, that Rachel is Rachelesque again, she is back to being herself, then we hear from the owner, she is maybe 80%, then the trainer wondering where Rachel's speed went, and the jockey gets blamed for waiting for horses. Two unexpected losses in a row provide plenty of drama and laughs for her backers.

Oh my! I believe I'm getting the vapors. :faint:

[Tom]

I laughed too

Then remembered I suffer from Vertigo and fell out of my recliner from laughing so hard

Is Jerry Bailey still in your bathroom?
Maybe he can help you back up!
:lol::lol::lol:

[Tom]

I dunno, but I see Calvin doing good on a lot of horses. When he askes them they go. I do not think Calvin is the problem.

SMTW....foundation.......I would agree with you so far.......

[JustRalph]

Is Jerry Bailey still in your bathroom?
Maybe he can help you back up!
:lol::lol::lol:


He keeps sticking his head in my office and giving me his latest pick ?

He is like Leslie Nielsen in Airplane ............

[PaceAdvantage]

I would laugh too, if I had backed an odds on favorite that lost two races in the row she should have won easily. its just too funny.

As another poster said we should be praying for drama, well we certainly are getting plenty of drama.

First, regarding the La Troienne, we hear from the asst. trainer, Blassi, that Rachel is Rachelesque again, she is back to being herself, then we hear from the owner, she is maybe 80%, then the trainer wondering where Rachel's speed went, and the jockey gets blamed for waiting for horses. Two unexpected losses in a row provide plenty of drama and laughs for her backers.When exactly did you turn into such a prick? That's a serious question, in case you're wondering.

It's one thing to say you think a horse is slow, or isn't as good as everyone seems to think, which is what I do with Zenyatta.

But you seem to take it to another level, especially with this post.

[bigmack]

He keeps sticking his head in my office and giving me his latest pick ?

He is like Leslie Nielsen in Airplane ............
Surely, you must kidding?

[Show Me the Wire]

I didn't realize repeating what the connections said qualify me as a prick, while everyone is laughing about the impossibility about something physically going wrong.

So its better to make flippant statements, instead of searching for the truth in the connection's statements?

[Tom]

No, he is not.
And stop calling him Shirley.

[Dahoss9698]

I didn't realize repeating what the connections said qualify me as a prick, while everyone is laughing about the impossibility about something physically going wrong.

So its better to make flippant statements, instead of searching for the truth in the connection's statements?

Who is your Derby pick?

[bigmack]

No, he is not.
And stop calling him Shirley.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/frustrated-user.gif

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn't realize repeating what the connections said qualify me as a prick, while everyone is laughing about the impossibility about something physically going wrong.

So its better to make flippant statements, instead of searching for the truth in the connection's statements?It just seemed mean-spirited...taking a little pleasure in the misery that Rachel fans might be feeling at the moment (I'm not one of them...no misery here...I think she should be given a few more chances).

I was going to take down the prick comment, but it was too late.

This whole saga has gotten out of hand here...I apologize for calling you a prick.

[Tom]

If they run her a Churchill, they better leave Calvin on! :eek:

[BluegrassProf]

If they run her a Churchill, they better leave Calvin on! :eek:Particularly if they run in HUGE fields...sure, he's pretty good w/ Churchill; his real trick is crowds.

[cj]

First, regarding the La Troienne, we hear from the asst. trainer, Blassi, that Rachel is Rachelesque again, she is back to being herself, then we hear from the owner, she is maybe 80%, then the trainer wondering where Rachel's speed went, and the jockey gets blamed for waiting for horses. Two unexpected losses in a row provide plenty of drama and laughs for her backers.

I'm being serious here, since when do we expect connections to really know how there horses are going to run? They do the best they can to get them ready, but they don't know any more than we do unless an injury is involved or something like that.

[JustRalph]

I'm being serious here, since when do we expect connections to really know how there horses are going to run? They do the best they can to get them ready, but they don't know any more than we do unless an injury is involved or something like that.

Most of the time I think they know less.......... :bang:

[cj]

Most of the time I think they know less.......... :bang:

Exactly, but I didn't want to offend those that idolize them and get them all in a frenzy.

[Show Me the Wire]

If they run her a Churchill, they better leave Calvin on! :eek:


He took Gomez out of the race by squeezing him into the rail at the break and then Garcia finished Gomez off with the second squeeze.

Borel just out rode them again. Borel's head snap of Super Saver to get him off the wrong lead was timed perfectly too.

[Valuist]

Are synthetics responsible for the "Borel Phenomenon"? This is the phenomenon in which one rider, completely unfazed by the wide closing nature so often seen in synthetic racing, tries to save ground whenever possible. Look at the rides for Street Sense, Mine That Bird and Super Saver. Other than Super Saver being closer to the pace than the other two, they were all the same trip; save ground whenever possible and only go around a horse when absolutely necessary. Too many riders are either afraid, or so used to the wide closing mentality that synthetics encourage, that they keep leaving the inside open. Even early in the race, Durkin commented that Borel was saving ground. You'd t think SOMEBODY would want to save ground.

[Show Me the Wire]

Borel on the rail way before the advent of synthetics

[Valuist]

Borel on the rail way before the advent of synthetics

Yes, but EVERYONE else going wide wasn't always the case. This isn't about him as much as all the others being afraid to go inside.

[Show Me the Wire]

Yes, but EVERYONE else going wide wasn't always the case. This isn't about him as much as all the others being afraid to go inside.

How did he get to the rail before and win, if everyone wasn't going wide and stayed on the rail?

[Valuist]

How many Derbies did he win before 2007? Yes, us racing fans knew him as a solid rider, no question. Now the guy goes on Leno and Letterman and is probably the best known rider in this hemisphere. Ten years ago, he wasn't considered anywhere as highly as he is now (of course it didn't hurt that Pat Day retired).

[Show Me the Wire]

How many Derbies did he win before 2007? Yes, us racing fans knew him as a solid rider, no question. Now the guy goes on Leno and Letterman and is probably the best known rider in this hemisphere. Ten years ago, he wasn't considered anywhere as highly as he is now (of course it didn't hurt that Pat Day retired).

I think his success has come, because trainers started to appreciate his abilities on the Churchill course.

Like his ride today. He initially took Gomez out of the race because he crowded Gomez into the rail at the start. Borel knows the course and drifted over enough to squeeze horses inside of him into the rail, while securing a good stalking inside postion.

[Nikki1997]

:lol: That is a real knee slapper.

As another poster said everything is fine in Rachel land.

I fail to see your humor .

One does not snap a horse's head to get a lead change.

I didn't say everything was fine in Rachel land, nor did I imply that she isn't sound either.

I never thought she was as good as her fans did, but I never denied she was a good one .

I have NO idea what you are talking about .

[Show Me the Wire]

I fail to see your humor .

One does not snap a horse's head to get a lead change.

I didn't say everything was fine in Rachel land, nor did I imply that she isn't sound either.

I never thought she was as good as her fans did, but I never denied she was a good one .

I have NO idea what you are talking about .

Okay I will play.

What do you personally call the manuever of pulling the horses head hard to one side, like Borel did today? I am not the only one who noticed it today (see quote below).


........ incidentally super saver changed leads twice in the stretch. calvin yanked on the reigns twice. it was fortunate he was on the rail because it kept the horse from swerving both times. if he's not on the rail in the preakness chances are super will be caught... its something to think about when you are trip handicapping the preakness. i'm gonna take a look at the ark derby to see about this.

It is a common manuever used on a daily basis to get the horse to switch leads, that why I said your comment was a knee slapper.

[Nikki1997]

Okay I will play.

What do you personally call the manuever of pulling the horses head hard to one side, like Borel did today? I am not the only one who noticed it today (see quote below).




It is a common manuever used on a daily basis to get the horse to switch leads, that why I said your comment was a knee slapper.

You used the word SNAP--snapping, if you will, a horse's head is a crude and violent maneuver, and I would not quote someone who used the word " jerk" either as a voice of authority--especially when said poster used the word jerk to indicate a motion on REIGNS .

That would indicate to me that their kingdom was in disarray .

Anyone who knows jacksh#t about horsemanship does not use the words snap and jerk--as they indicate a crudeness beyond good horsemanship and terrible hands.

I am not playing --so don't pull that condescending I will play crap..

If a jockey turns a horses's head to get a lead change--it is neither jerking nor snapping .

I am argueing with non riders the semantics and intricacies of horsemanship .

That said , come on down and do a lead change by snapping or jerking the reins on the horses I ride .

You won't be fit to snap peas if you try it . And yes they are racehorses .

Dolt .

[PaceAdvantage]

Dolt .Easy now. He's been called enough names today... :lol:

[Nikki1997]

Easy now. He's been called enough names today... :lol:

That WAS easy .

I didn't snap and jerk him now did I ????

[Hanover1]

You used the word SNAP--snapping, if you will, a horse's head is a crude and violent maneuver, and I would not quote someone who used the word " jerk" either as a voice of authority--especially when said poster used the word jerk to indicate a motion on REIGNS .

That would indicate to me that their kingdom was in disarray .

Anyone who knows jacksh#t about horsemanship does not use the words snap and jerk--as they indicate a crudeness beyond good horsemanship and terrible hands.

I am not playing --so don't pull that condescending I will play crap..

If a jockey turns a horses's head to get a lead change--it is neither jerking nor snapping .

I am argueing with non riders the semantics and intricacies of horsemanship .

That said , come on down and do a lead change by snapping or jerking the reins on the horses I ride .

You won't be fit to snap peas if you try it . And yes they are racehorses .

Dolt .
Most of the posters here are not horsemen, but players. They want to understand the nuances of the game they invest in. To get on the fence with them in regards to the nuances of the game is pointless...I have tried many times, and it all comes around to the same conclusion. They want a fair shake, some understanding, and very little else from a trainer. We are not to be trusted, or are going to always be second guessed. Best to field questions, but attacking an otherwise misguided player gives me headaches.. :bang: you will see.....

[WinterTriangle]

Are synthetics responsible for the "Borel Phenomenon"?

No. Having balls is.

Other riders *think* they're riding the rail. Borel is not riding it, he's skimming it. If the saddle cloth blew in the wind a little it would be touching the rail the whole time.

Most of them simply don't have the guts to skim close like that. That's why I think it's funny when people ask: "if everyone knows he is going to ride the rail, why don't they stop him?"

Because he would find a hole and go thru, that;s why. :)

[PaceAdvantage]

We are not to be trusted, or are going to always be second guessed. Best to field questions, but attacking an otherwise misguided player gives me headaches.. you will see.....The "woe is me" act isn't very endearing either...and some of us "country bumpkin" players know a helluva lot more than you might think we do.

[Nikki1997]

Most of the posters here are not horsemen, but players. They want to understand the nuances of the game they invest in. To get on the fence with them in regards to the nuances of the game is pointless...I have tried many times, and it all comes around to the same conclusion. They want a fair shake, some understanding, and very little else from a trainer. We are not to be trusted, or are going to always be second guessed. Best to field questions, but attacking an otherwise misguided player gives me headaches.. :bang: you will see.....

I am more of a horse person and racing history person than a gambler, obviously .

I copy the headaches and I have seen--but thanks for just saying !!!

[Show Me the Wire]

Easy now. He's been called enough names today... :lol:


Don't worry PA.

Most jocks aren't horsemen. That is a real knee slapper.

[PaceAdvantage]

Don't worry PA.I'm glad you have a sense of humor... :ThmbUp:

[Hanover1]

The "woe is me" act isn't very endearing either...and some of us "country bumpkin" players know a helluva lot more than you might think we do.
My "woes" have kept me comfortable for many years :) Labeling was your idea.....Horses on the bit tend to get rank........

[DeanT]

No. Having balls is.

Other riders *think* they're riding the rail. Borel is not riding it, he's skimming it. If the saddle cloth blew in the wind a little it would be touching the rail the whole time.

Most of them simply don't have the guts to skim close like that. That's why I think it's funny when people ask: "if everyone knows he is going to ride the rail, why don't they stop him?"

Because he would find a hole and go thru, that;s why. :)

:ThmbUp:

I would add one more thing (that might be wrong, but what the hell) - he does not seem to care if he heads back to the barn because he got stopped by taking the inside route and ruined a horses chances. When Street Sense won he was really lucky he did not get totally shut off and finished up the track. A lot of riders will want the open route so they dont get reamed for ruining a potential winner and multi million dollar stud fee that goes to them; but Calvin has a set. It has paid off wonders for him. That ride on MTB in the overhead shot was absolutely mind boggling!

IMO.

[Cardus]

My "woes" have kept me comfortable for many years :) Labeling was your idea.....Horses on the bit tend to get rank........

You're a great ambassador.

[Show Me the Wire]

I'm glad you have a sense of humor... :ThmbUp:

I especially got a chuckle from the horseman talking about the use of reigns. When I ride, English or western style, I prefer reins.

[Hanover1]

I especially got a chuckle from the horseman talking about the use of reigns. When I ride, English or western style, I prefer reins.
And the trots call them lines....

[Show Me the Wire]

And the trots call them lines....

Ah, the good old days.

[Tom]

I especially got a chuckle from the horseman talking about the use of reigns. When I ride, English or western style, I prefer reins.

And what do you call them when it rains?

hehehe.

[BluegrassProf]

And what do you call them when it rains?If you're in a southwestern KY storm: important.

:ThmbUp:

[FenceBored]

I especially got a chuckle from the horseman talking about the use of reigns. When I ride, English or western style, I prefer reins.

Didn't notice that "reigns" is what bisket wrote in the quote you included to prove your point, did you? :bang:

[joanied]

No. Having balls is.

Other riders *think* they're riding the rail. Borel is not riding it, he's skimming it. If the saddle cloth blew in the wind a little it would be touching the rail the whole time.

Most of them simply don't have the guts to skim close like that. That's why I think it's funny when people ask: "if everyone knows he is going to ride the rail, why don't they stop him?"

Because he would find a hole and go thru, that;s why. :)

There ya go :ThmbUp:

[Robert Goren]

No. Having balls is.

Other riders *think* they're riding the rail. Borel is not riding it, he's skimming it. If the saddle cloth blew in the wind a little it would be touching the rail the whole time.

Most of them simply don't have the guts to skim close like that. That's why I think it's funny when people ask: "if everyone knows he is going to ride the rail, why don't they stop him?"

Because he would find a hole and go thru, that;s why. :) What does he do when the horse doesn't have the "balls" to go through it. Not all horses will. JMO

[Nikki1997]

What does he do when the horse doesn't have the "balls" to go through it. Not all horses will. JMO

I am reminded by the above by something the great and never one to mince words Eddie Arcaro once said to an owner who gave him instructions before a race on how to get his somewhat mediocre horse home first .

The owner told Eddie to lay mid pack, commence a run at the far turn and then take the lead in the stretch .

The race went off and nothing of the sort happened.

Afterwards the chagrined owner asked Arcaro why he did not follow the plan and come home a winner .

Arcaro answered " What, and leave the horse behind ? "

The above quote applies to all those that suggest so and so horse should have opened up under so and so jockey, or so and so jockey needed to make that horse go out faster .

More than many times Arcaro's comment applies .

[Show Me the Wire]

Fencebored:

I understand you have problems understanding context. We have this discussion all the time about the importance of context.

Context is why one poster using "reigns" is much more of a chuckle moment than the other poster’s use of the word.

[FenceBored]

Fencebored:

I understand you have problems understanding context. We have this discussion all the time about the importance of context.

Context is why one poster using "reigns" is much more of a chuckle moment than the other poster’s use of the word.


Nikki1997 used "reigns" in caps to highlight the mispelling to mock YOU for using a quote by someone who used the wrong word as support for your position. You missed the context and mocked her. Ain't you the bomb. :rolleyes:

[bisket]

how did da bisket get in the middle of this discussion? casey is the only person i know that can butcher the english language better than da bisket. imagine a very thick balmer accent to go with my above average typing ability ;)

[Show Me the Wire]

how did da bisket get in the middle of this discussion? casey is the only person i know that can butcher the english language better than da bisket. imagine a very thick balmer accent to go with my above average typing ability ;)


Because, you were astute enough to highlight the jerking of Super Saver's head, by Borel, to encourage the lead change.

[Show Me the Wire]

Nikki1997 used "reigns" in caps to highlight the mispelling to mock YOU for using a quote by someone who used the wrong word as support for your position. You missed the context and mocked her. Ain't you the bomb. :rolleyes:

Okay, I went back and read the post. It was late at night and now I see the sarcasm. First, people make typos and use homonyms erroneously all the time and second the sarcasm doesn't invalidate what the other poster saw .

I generally, don't make mock posters for using the wrong word, just to invalidate or attack a justified observation, but I need to remember many on here do. So in my innocence I erred in not seeing the mocking of the other poster's credibility, by Nikki.

Wrong word or not the observation is still valid.

[Nikki1997]

Okay, I went back and read the post. It was late at night and now I see the sarcasm. First, people make typos and use homonyms erroneously all the time and second the sarcasm doesn't invalidate what the other poster saw .

I generally, don't make mock posters for using the wrong word, just to invalidate or attack a justified observation, but I need to remember many on here do. So in my innocence I erred in not seeing the mocking of the other poster's credibility, by Nikki.

Wrong word or not the observation is still valid.

Wrong again--Fence Bored got it exactly right .

I did not mock the other poster, I mocked you for using that poster's error as a support for your arguement .

I did not mock the other poster's credibility at all--I just disagreed with YOU and still do .

[Nikki1997]

Nikki1997 used "reigns" in caps to highlight the mispelling to mock YOU for using a quote by someone who used the wrong word as support for your position. You missed the context and mocked her. Ain't you the bomb. :rolleyes:

Exactly .

[Show Me the Wire]

Wrong again--Fence Bored got it exactly right .

I did not mock the other poster, I mocked you for using that poster's error as a support for your arguement .

I did not mock the other poster's credibility at all--I just disagreed with YOU and still do .

I see you another one of those posters that want to make everything personal. I don’t understand this penchant for mocking. It proves nothing.

By using another's error to show I am wrong is mocking the other poster too.
If you mock me, you must mock him too, for he holds the same opinion.

Your quote, "I would not quote someone who used the word " jerk" either as a voice of authority--especially when said poster used the word jerk to indicate a motion on REIGNS ." , put in perspective by fencebored is definitely mocking a poster that doesn't know how to spell reins.


Well let's not get too sidetracked.

You said we won't see the "gauche" behavior in races. What perfect timing, the next day in a prestigious race we see Borel, above the 3/16th's pole coming out of his crouch, to gain leverage, and jerking Super Saver's head to the left, to effectuate a lead change. And later in the press conference we hear Pletcher telling the world how he reminded Borel about the importance of making Super Saver change leads.

I said your original statement was a knee slapper and proven so based on the events of the very next day.

I don't need to make it personal. The proof is there for all to see on video.

[Nikki1997]

I see you another one of those posters that want to make everything personal. I don’t understand this penchant for mocking. It proves nothing.

By using another's error to show I am wrong is mocking the other poster too.
If you mock me, you must mock him too, for he holds the same opinion.

Your quote, "I would not quote someone who used the word " jerk" either as a voice of authority--especially when said poster used the word jerk to indicate a motion on REIGNS ." , put in perspective by fencebored is definitely mocking a poster that doesn't know how to spell reins.


Well let's not get too sidetracked.

You said we won't see the "gauche" behavior in races. What perfect timing, the next day in a prestigious race we see Borel, above the 3/16th's pole coming out of his crouch, to gain leverage, and jerking Super Saver's head to the left, to effectuate a lead change. And later in the press conference we hear Pletcher telling the world how he reminded Borel about the importance of making Super Saver change leads.

I said your original statement was a knee slapper and proven so based on the events of the very next day.

I don't need to make it personal. The proof is there for all to see on video.

YOU are the only one making anything personal--you have an opinion which you resent being questioned or countered, so this stuff persists .

The only PERSONAL issue I have is when people insist on terms that are misleading and may lead others to believe this is the norm .

Once again--ONE NEVER JERKS OR SNAPS A HORSE FOR A LEAD CHANGE--but here you are repeating it again for the even less initiated, instead of conceding that those terms themselves are gauche and imply a measure of violence and crudeness to achieve the end result of a lead change.

The personal issue is that YOU can not be wrong or amended, like so many internet posters .

Conversely, I have no interest in being wrong or right--and if I am wrong factually, I will concede out loud.

You will not--hence this weighty tome of kangaroo court defenses .

Turning a horse's head to get a lead change reflects on said horse not being good at a change without turning the head, but the head is turned, never snapped or jerked . At the very least your choice of words is poor .

In a horse that is better with their changes, the aids are nearly invisible even at slow speeds .

What you describe as " for all to see " is only a head turned--there is no jerking or snapping , and no " proof " of such on the video .

And while you may have been on the back of a horse, it is clear for all to see with any riding knowledge whatsoever, that you have had no training nor have any understanding of riding a lead change whatsoever .

You have proved nothing but OBSTINANCE--and that I will not challenge or attempt to disprove .

I look forward to your lectures on tempi changes--will be droll .

[Show Me the Wire]

Nikki:

Snap as in a quick movement, as to turn the head quickly. It is not violent like snapping (breaking) a horses neck.

That is why I asked what you called the technique. BTW I didn't make up the term, as you imply.


And you made it personal by using the terms dolt and mocking and saying you wanted to jerk me.

[Nikki1997]

And you made it personal by using the terms dolt and mocking and saying you wanted to jerk me.

I most certainly did call you a dolt, but I never said I wanted to jerk you .

You have a vivid imagination for the utterly perverse in this case .

[Dahoss9698]

The personal issue is that YOU can not be wrong or amended, like so many internet posters .

Conversely, I have no interest in being wrong or right--and if I am wrong factually, I will concede out loud.

You will not--hence this weighty tome of kangaroo court defenses .


Looks like you have him figured out pretty well.

[Show Me the Wire]

No, a sense of humor.

[Nikki1997]

Looks like you have him figured out pretty well.

That may well be, but I remember feeling the same way about someone else on another thread .

That said, my interest lies in accuracy regarding horses, and while I may argue opinions, it is actually the premise leading to such opinions that is the bone of contention .

Opinions are everyone's right.

[Dahoss9698]

That may well be, but I remember feeling the same way about someone else on another thread .



Don't worry, I felt the same way.

[Show Me the Wire]

Dahoss:

If I am such a dolt, why waste your time with me. If I felt someone is a dolt, I would be dismissive of them, just like I am of you.

I really put a burr under your saddle, way up there, because you really can't let it go, which is shown, by your paying so much attention to me, along with with eagerness to insult.

That's right I got you to admit that you feel you can basically shit on people on thei internet, because it is non-face-to face contact and you are a betrayer of confidences.

You are dismissed.

[Show Me the Wire]

That may well be, but I remember feeling the same way about someone else on another thread .

That said, my interest lies in accuracy regarding horses, and while I may argue opinions, it is actually the premise leading to such opinions that is the bone of contention .

Opinions are everyone's right.


:ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

The Dahoss / SMTW show is getting old...if you two want to go at it, please use the private messaging function.

I will be deleting all the worthless personal insults/comments passed between you two from now on, like I just did with Dahoss' "baby" comment.

[Dahoss9698]

Yes, clearly I am the one that is hung up on it and you are as cool as a cucumber. You can't take the fact that I am a lot better at your game than you are.

There is one person constantly getting emotional and having outbursts (I've been dismissed about 5 times now). And one person having fun with it all. Guess which one is which.

[Dahoss9698]

The Dahoss / SMTW show is getting old...if you two want to go at it, please use the private messaging function.

I will be deleting all the worthless personal insults/comments passed between you two from now on, like I just did with Dahoss' "baby" comment.

Might want to delete the stalker comment than as well.

[PaceAdvantage]

Might want to delete the stalker comment than as well.Done. Probably should get rid of #99 too...

[joanied]

Done. Probably should get rid of #99 too...

Please do :faint:

[Dahoss9698]

Please do :faint:

Thanks for listening :ThmbUp:

[Kimsus]

He wasn't waiting, Rachel wasn't quick (fast) enough to gain any separation once she took the lead.

I'm glad one person on this thread got it right.

[WinterTriangle]

What does he do when the horse doesn't have the "balls" to go through it. Not all horses will. JMO

Agree! It takes courage from the horse, too. (which is why I liked MTB for letting calvin guide him like he did.)


But then we just have to add yet another skill to Calvin's set: Not only does he have balls, but he KNOWS what is under him.

Which brings us back to rachel on that particular day.....whatever it was that she needed to do, and whatever it was that he needed her to do, didn't happen. Perhaps he didn't do something he was capable of becaue he did not think she was capable of doing it.

I imagine they'd be way more pissed if he hurt or crippled or even set her back in her racing progress, than that he didn't win on her.

So, maybe she'll do it next time.......

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm glad one person on this thread got it right.Oh, I bet you are...

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm glad one person on this thread got it right.Allow me to ask both Kimsus and SMTW a question:

If Calvin wasn't waiting on horses, how was it that Unbridled Belle just glided up alongside Rachel with consummate ease as they were nearing the end of the turn for home, looking like she was going to BLOW RIGHT ON BY Rachel Alexandra at will, yet they ended up battling the length of the stretch with Rachel losing by a head.

Yeah, he wasn't waiting on horses at all...Desormeaux is set down and driving, while Calvin is still sitting high, ass in the air, not asking anything...

Tell me again he wasn't waiting on horses...

[Kimsus]

Allow me to ask both Kimsus and SMTW a question:

If Calvin wasn't waiting on horses, how was it that Unbridled Belle just glided up alongside Rachel with consummate ease as they were nearing the end of the turn for home, looking like she was going to BLOW RIGHT ON BY Rachel Alexandra at will, yet they ended up battling the length of the stretch with Rachel losing by a head.

Yeah, he wasn't waiting on horses at all...Desormeaux is set down and driving, while Calvin is still sitting high, ass in the air, not asking anything...

Tell me again he wasn't waiting on horses...

This is all fine and good if the horse had the same cruising speed as last year, that's the crux of the discussion. Thus my assertion that she is running at 90 to perhaps 95% at the level of her races last year. You guys are blaming Borel when it is more likely the horse, the guy is riding great right and this just seems to be more searching for viable reasons why Rachel didn't win again by her fans, she is not the superhorse that her fans think she is PA, as the season goes on we will see she is a very good horse but not the great that most labelled her off of 1 season that stopped on Sept 5.

[joanied]

Thanks for listening :ThmbUp:

No thanks needed...I was 'listening' to PA.

[Dahoss9698]

No thanks needed...I was 'listening' to PA.

Thanks, I just lost a bet.

[joanied]

Thanks, I just lost a bet.

:jump:

[Spalding No!]

This is all fine and good if the horse had the same cruising speed as last year, that's the crux of the discussion. Thus my assertion that she is running at 90 to perhaps 95% at the level of her races last year. You guys are blaming Borel when it is more likely the horse, the guy is riding great right and this just seems to be more searching for viable reasons why Rachel didn't win again by her fans, she is not the superhorse that her fans think she is PA, as the season goes on we will see she is a very good horse but not the great that most labelled her off of 1 season that stopped on Sept 5.


Nice back pedal, but how does this make sense if Borel waited on horses after taking command in the La Troienne?

If she's not the same horse as last year, then to beat a horse of Unrivaled Belle's quality, she'd have to be ridden tactically in order to win, right?

But now you say it's no fault of Borel's if he didn't ride her tactically?

The greater irony of the La Troienne defeat is that IIRC, Borel lambasted Jess Jackson and Steve Asmussen for their pre-race instructions in the New Orleans Ladies, saying they didn't want him to let the filly run "too soon". Thus he excused himself saying his hands were tied.

Then he gets free rein (no pun intended) at CD and rides the exact same race?

He deserves to get booted off whether or not a new rider will move the filly up any.

[Nikki1997]

Arguement is invalid, as Unbridled Belle was not in this race.

Desormeaux was not driving either--he threw crosses at UNRIVALED BELLE, and had Rachel measured the whole time .

The two fillies traded head bobs and Rachel fought more than I have ever seen her, but she didn't have the accleration to pull away in her patented move of last year.

That she hung on in the stretch has nothing to do with waiting .

Had Calvin tried to open up, and actually done this, she might have had LESS for the stretch drive .

[Spalding No!]

Had Calvin tried to open up, and actually done this, she might have had LESS for the stretch drive .

And wouldn't have Unrivaled Belle had more work to do?

[Nikki1997]

And wouldn't have Unrivaled Belle had more work to do?


Sure, and there is no way of knowing that the result still would not be the same , as Rachel would have done more work to pull away and may have had less in the tank to get to the wire .

Or not .

They both would have used their work energy in different ways.

[Spalding No!]

Sure, and there is no way of knowing that the result still would not be the same , as Rachel would have done more work to pull away and may have had less in the tank to get to the wire .

Or not .

They both would have used their work energy in different ways.

So when a horse has another one right at it's throat latch down the lane, it doesn't get stressed or spent any faster than a horse with an open length advantage would?

Let me do a half-halt and think this over...

[Nikki1997]

So when a horse has another one right at it's throat latch down the lane, it doesn't get stressed or spent any faster than a horse with an open length advantage would?

Let me do a half-halt and think this over...

You will need that half-halt, asd that is not what I said at all .

Of course a head to head is stressful, but if Rachel pulled away and hypothetically had nothing left if Unrivaled's Belle hypothetically came up to her, she hypothetically may have used up the reserve for the stretch drive.

Hope this supplies the needed impulsion .

[Spalding No!]

You will need that half-halt, asd that is not what I said at all .

Of course a head to head is stressful, but if Rachel pulled away and hypothetically had nothing left if Unrivaled's Belle hypothetically came up to her, she hypothetically may have used up the reserve for the stretch drive.

Hope this supplies the needed impulsion .

So, hypothetically, you are saying that Unrivaled Belle has inexhaustible reserves, hypothetically, and no matter if Rachel Alexandra had a 3 length lead or a head advantage, hypothetically Urivaled Belle had her measure.

It sure looked like Unrivaled Belle won with a ton left.

Maybe Desormeaux should be fined for failing to ride her out?

[Kimsus]

Nice back pedal, but how does this make sense if Borel waited on horses after taking command in the La Troienne?

If she's not the same horse as last year, then to beat a horse of Unrivaled Belle's quality, she'd have to be ridden tactically in order to win, right?

But now you say it's no fault of Borel's if he didn't ride her tactically?

The greater irony of the La Troienne defeat is that IIRC, Borel lambasted Jess Jackson and Steve Asmussen for their pre-race instructions in the New Orleans Ladies, saying they didn't want him to let the filly run "too soon". Thus he excused himself saying his hands were tied.

Then he gets free rein (no pun intended) at CD and rides the exact same race?

He deserves to get booted off whether or not a new rider will move the filly up any.

It's amazing that everyone who is lauding Calvin Borel as being CD's most recent greatest rider, is also so bad riding Rachel when all he did was win on her last year. The world is full of the visually impaired and excuses.

[Nikki1997]

So, hypothetically, you are saying that Unrivaled Belle has inexhaustible reserves, hypothetically, and no matter if Rachel Alexandra had a 3 length lead or a head advantage, hypothetically Urivaled Belle had her measure.

It sure looked like Unrivaled Belle won with a ton left.

Maybe Desormeaux should be fined for failing to ride her out?

I didn't say that at all .

I did say UB had her measure, and was not as hard ridden as Rachel, and I did say that even with a change of strategy, the race could have gone to either one .

That is what I said, and am saying, and feel free to distort it .

UB had more left than Rachel--there is no way to measure how much more either had, nor did I say UB would have clearly won had RA opened up, but there is no evidence that RA would have either .

If this is not clear to you, please resume arguing with yourself .

[Spalding No!]

It's amazing that everyone who is lauding Calvin Borel as being CD's most recent greatest rider, is also so bad riding Rachel when all he did was win on her last year. The world is full of the visually impaired and excuses.

Yep. He's the leading rider at CD, therefore he can't possibly be anything less than perfect in all his rides.

He's the Zenyatta of jockeys...

[Spalding No!]

UB had more left than Rachel--there is no way to measure how much more either had, nor did I say UB would have clearly won had RA opened up, but there is no evidence that RA would have either.

Well, that's the crux of the whole debate, isn't it? Whether or not Borel should have waited on horses before asking Rachel Alexandra to go "all in".

Since in her 3yo races she never was headed at that stage of a race and in her only start at 4 she was unsuccessful under similar circumstances, don't you think Borel still made a mistake based on past performance, whether or not it would have been the difference between winning and losing?

[PaceAdvantage]

she is not the superhorse that her fans think she is PA, as the season goes on we will see she is a very good horse but not the great that most labelled her off of 1 season that stopped on Sept 5.I never once on this website claimed she was a super horse.

Unless you mean that by claiming I think she's better than Zenyatta, that means I think she is a super horse.

Not quite. But keep injecting those colorful descriptors...I might just have to go back to my slightly derogatory use of "fanboys."