Why I Voted For Zenyatta As Horse of the Year

[HollywoodParkStwd]

I voted for Zenyatta as the HOY, though I will say that without a doubt RA was the best three year old in the country. I do not hold the opinion that she is a 'superhorse' as I believe the Belmont Stakes of Rags to Riches- against Curlin, Tiago and Hard Spun was far better compared to anything RA has done.

The debate still rages- even now, so let me take a quick look at RA and Zenyatta!

Some supposed 'experts' on my boards have pointed to the lower class level in the horses Zenyatta has defeated last year before the BCC, but they simply either have no idea what they are talking about, or else they just like breathing out hot air if you will. The 'poor quality' of opponents only works if a horse HAS NEVER faced horses of high quality, so to use that logic is absurd and idiotic.

1. Add the graded stakes wins of all the horses that RA and Zen defeated in 2009- Zenyatta easily wins even though RA had three more races!

2. Add the graded stakes placements of all the horses they each defeated in 2009- Zenyatta easily wins again.

3. Add the total money earned by horses they defeated- Zenyatta's opponents earned SIX TIMES the total RA's did.

4. RA never ran at 1 1/4, or 1 1/2 miles. This doesn't eliminate her in my book, but when you are asking to be HOY and in the Woodward- the two 'better' older horses that you beat were a combined 4 of 14 in 2009. All the great horses have had bad days....Secretariat ran into a blazing hot Prove Out, as well as Onion and even Angle Light stealing the Wood. Seattle Slew lost to champions Exceller, Dr. Patches and J.O. Tobin, Affirmed was handed his hat twice by Seattle Slew....and RA has lost 4 races already- Garden District only won 2 of 6 races! Sara Loiuse won 4 of 8 races and is a good horse, but she is no champion. Zardana is a good horse as well- I watched her win a Grade 2 here at Hollywood and I said she'd 'upset' RA simply because she was training very well going into that race and she has a ton of heart.

Some of those races RA didn't lose in 2009- obviously, but my point is that the horses that beat her were no 'giant' killers. I know the excuses flowed after RA lost to Zardana, but had Zardana not been in that race- everybody would have said that RA looked like a 'super horse'. Let me return to 2009....

5. The level of the 3 year old filly division in 2009 was horrible! The Kentucky Oaks field was one of the worst in the history of that race! Stone Legacy lost 4 straight allowence or claiming races after the Oaks. Flying Spur, a regular RA victim, only won a Mdn Special in 2009 and is now running in claiming races. AFleet Deceipt- another horse always coming up in RA races did not win a race in 2009. Bon Jovi Girl didn't win any of her starts in 2009!

6. Those who are critical of the horses Zenyatta has defeated have no true knowledge of this sport, nor do they have much intelligence. I've looked over blogs and have constantly read how Zenyatta only beat the likes of ' Dawn After Dawn', 'Lethal Heat', 'Made For Magic', 'Champagne Eyes', 'Hot N' Dusty', 'Gambler's Eye', 'Anabass Creation'....etc

Let's look at those horses;

Dawn After Dawn- Won or placed in a dozen stakes races, over 600k in earnings. Biggest victory was in the Grade 2- La Canada

Made For Magic- Missed the 45 year old track record for 4 1/2 fur by only 2/5 of a second at Keeneland in her debut and made the cover of the DRF- had some setbacks- won the Las Madrinas and placed in several other stakes- over 200k in earnings always fighting injuries.

Champagne Eyes- Won Santa Lucia Handicap- placed in several stakes races, over 200k in earnings.

Hot ' N Dusty- Almost 200k in earnings- has been on the board in 75% of her races.

Gambler's Eye- 250k in earnings- muliple stakes placings.

Annabass Creation- 400k in earning- multiple graded stakes placed in Europe and US.

etc etc etc etc etc etc

And look at the list of horses that Zenyatta has defeated in her career! As Andy Beyer said; 'It is almost beyond compare for a female in the history of the sport'. Granted- he also said that Zenyatta would lose the BCC, but afterwards he changed his tune.

Music Note- 5 Grade 1 wins- was almost the Champion 3 year old filly- just barely missed. Won over $1,600,000 and creamed Indian Blessing in the Ballerina

Ginger Punch- Twice defeated by Zenyatta- do I have to detail her career? Over $3,000,000 in earnings. Won 6 Grade 1 races!!!

Hystericalady- Twice defeated by Zenyatta- same as above- we all know who she is. $2,400,000 in earnings. Won 8 graded stakes races.

Life Is Sweet- Multiple Grade 1 & 2 winner- almost $2,000,000 in earnings. Was retired last month after being injured here at Hollywood.

Sealy Hill- Only horse to win the Canadian Triple Tiara- was Canadian Horse of the Year, Female Turf Champion and earnings of $1,800,000.

Coca Beach- $1,800,000 in earnings- won highly graded races on three continents- won multiple Grade 1 races, as well as two of the top races in the UAE- the Oaks and the Thousand Guineas. Won 2008 Horse of the Year in Chile and filly of the year in the UAE.

Carriage Trail- Multiple stakes placed- over $800,000 in earnings.

Gio Ponti- won 4 grade 1 races in a row- Champion Older horse- ran an incredible BCC even in defeat- over $3,700,000 in earnings- a great horse and true champion.

Einstein- Has earned $3,000,000!!!!!!!!!

Santa Teresita- Multiple graded stakes wins and places- $500k in earnings.

I could go on and on and on with this. The greatest moment of 2009 was Zen winning the BCC. It was one of the best fields in the history of the race. Her Performance stood out miles above anything that RA did- this isn't speculation- it is a fact.

RA will never beat Zen. The excuses were flying when she lost to Zardana- they couldn't just say 'We fought hard and lost'. Had Zardana not been in the race, the headlines would have read; 'Champion RA returns to destory rivals'.

[andymays]

If you are a Hollywood Park Steward I would guess that you might be Scott Cheney? If you are a Hollywood Park Steward then you might want to explain the inconsistency of many calls in California and Nationally. Is it "altered the order of finish" or is it something else. It would be a good thread if you are a real Steward at Hollywood Park.

As far as Zenyatta vs. Rachel goes they're both great but last year Rachel deserved it a little more. The over the top promotion at Hollywood Park cost Zenyatta some votes (I heard from more than one voter about that).

Zenyatta may go on to be one of the best ever but she has to race against some tougher competition on dirt this year to prove it beyond a doubt. Maybe against Quality Road.

[BluegrassProf]

Her Performance stood out miles above anything that RA did- this isn't speculation- it is a fact. :bang:

Not to delve into the same massively tired, worn-out, thoroughly-covered debate (which, apparently, you're not yet tired of...go figure! such impressive stamina!), but to clarify: this comment is neither speculation NOR fact, nor is the issue at hand the moment of the year (a title that, like campaign of the year, is a judgement based upon a certain set of criteria that clearly differ from one individual to the next).

It's absolutely no use - and fairly egocentric - to cry "ENDASTORY! YALL AINT GOTZ THE FACTZ!" when you're simply elevating your criteria (myopic though they might be in this case) over the next person's. Fact-based judgement calls cut both ways, as has been driven straight into the ground.

Voted for Zen? Hey, good for you! She's a rockstar! No chance I, or any other rational person, would ever say otherwise. But really, man, it's about time you went ahead and moved on, perhaps hoping for bigger and better in the racing season happening NOW. Maybe if you pay attention this time 'round, your vote'll prove useful. :ThmbUp:

[Steve R]

[snip]I believe the Belmont Stakes of Rags to Riches- against Curlin, Tiago and Hard Spun was far better compared to anything RA has done[snip]
Then maybe you shouldn't be voting at all.

[Spalding No!]

When you have to bring up Made For Magic's 4.5f debut at Keeneland and the Canadian Triple Tiara (do you make this part up?) to bolster the "quality" of Zenyatta's victims, I would say you're clutching at plastic drinking straws at that point.

Have another margarita.

[HollywoodParkStwd]

[QUOTE=andymays]If you are a Hollywood Park Steward I would guess that you might be Scott Cheney? If you are a Hollywood Park Steward then you might want to explain the inconsistency of many calls in California and Nationally. Is it "altered the order of finish" or is it something else. It would be a good thread if you are a real Steward at Hollywood Park.

It is what it is-we are who we are.......there is zero reason or gain on my side to say something that isn't- is. In regards to your thread suggestion- it is interesting, though I just joined here not one day ago to answer some absolute absurdity I was reading. I'll think about the ramifications in that I have no control of these boards and people here love using profanity and insults.

As far as Zenyatta vs. Rachel goes they're both great but last year Rachel deserved it a little more. The over the top promotion at Hollywood Park cost Zenyatta some votes (I heard from more than one voter about that).

The same can be said for McCormick and Jackson in regards to the lobby effort behind the voting. You have to remember that RA was basically crowned after the Woodward, hence for Zen to have a shot at the Horse of the Year some people had to get into the trenches so to speak. When I look at the HOY- as I look at both of them- I see all of the great horses that Zen beat- it is a huge list. That BCC win was the greatest race I have ever watched a female run in the history of this sport. It was against a field that even the DRF called; 'One of the greatest ever assembled'.

RA will be creamed by Zen on any track in the United States. That isn't to say I dislike RA- she ran an incredible Haskell and held on by a head in the Woodward, but when you look at Zen's past performances- look at the horses that she beat- it is beyond compare of any other female in the history of this sport.


Zenyatta may go on to be one of the best ever but she has to race against some tougher competition on dirt this year to prove it beyond a doubt. Maybe against Quality Road.

Best female ever? She is already the best female ever in my opinion. What filly could compare to the level of horses she has defeated? RA is a great filly- but she has also lost many races to far inferior females.

[46zilzal]

What makes Zenyatta even more special is the WAY she has won all of these. LUCKY TRIPS are not how she repeated this 16 times.....NO other deep closer has anywhere near this record as some of the best of our times (Aldebaran, Lit de Justice and Strike the Gold were not able to get through)

[BluegrassProf]

I just joined here not one day ago to answer some absolute absurdity I was reading. I'll think about the ramifications in that I have no control of these boards and people here love using profanity and insults.Excellent first impressions right back atcha, big guy; glad to see you've got us all pegged. Welcome to the forum. :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

[QUOTE]

It is what it is-we are who we are.......there is zero reason or gain on my side to say something that isn't- is. In regards to your thread suggestion- it is interesting, though I just joined here not one day ago to answer some absolute absurdity I was reading. I'll think about the ramifications in that I have no control of these boards and people here love using profanity and insults.



The same can be said for McCormick and Jackson in regards to the lobby effort behind the voting. You have to remember that RA was basically crowned after the Woodward, hence for Zen to have a shot at the Horse of the Year some people had to get into the trenches so to speak. When I look at the HOY- as I look at both of them- I see all of the great horses that Zen beat- it is a huge list. That BCC win was the greatest race I have ever watched a female run in the history of this sport. It was against a field that even the DRF called; 'One of the greatest ever assembled'.

RA will be creamed by Zen on any track in the United States. That isn't to say I dislike RA- she ran an incredible Haskell and held on by a head in the Woodward, but when you look at Zen's past performances- look at the horses that she beat- it is beyond compare of any other female in the history of this sport.




Best female ever? She is already the best female ever in my opinion. What filly could compare to the level of horses she has defeated? RA is a great filly- but she has also lost many races to far inferior females.


You better toughen up a little if you want to go the distance here. The pace you're setting might be a little too fast ;)

TVG and HRTV were promoting Zenyatta 24/7. They moved the public polls but not the real voters. In fact the shameless promotions 24/7 cost Zenyatta votes in my opinion.

Last year Rachel beats Zenyatta on a dirt surface. This year probably not. No question Zenyatta is great and I love her connections. Especially their positions that synthetic surfaces are bad for racing. :ThmbUp:

[letswastemoney]

People may have their opinions,

but I can't stand it when they call it "fact"! There is no fact. Each side has legitimate points and until they actually race each other, the debate is a stalemate.

[HollywoodParkStwd]

When you have to bring up Made For Magic's 4.5f debut at Keeneland and the Canadian Triple Tiara (do you make this part up?) to bolster the "quality" of Zenyatta's victims, I would say you're clutching at plastic drinking straws at that point.

Have another margarita.

You easily make my case regarding the low level of comments left on the boards by those passing themselves off as knowledgeable.

I pointed out a ton of information that was 100% true- I easily could have posted far more regarding horses that Zen beat, so you reply with the above absurdity.

The fact that you never heard of the Canadian Triple Tiara- to the point where you ask if I made it up simply shows that you have zero intelligence. You may be a horse racing fan- you may even have your own opinion, but to slur a fact as you did above is idiotic.

The Canadian Triple Tiara is the Woodbine Oaks, the Bison City Stakes and the Wonder Where Stakes. Sealy Hill is the only female in Canadian history to win all three- she was Canadian Horse of the Year AND Female Turf Champion. Sealy Hill beat Panty Raid in Kentucky- if you ever heard of that horse- which I doubt.

In regards to Made For Magic- it was a point of fact- it is what it is. I already detailed several of RA's female victims- I did the same for Zen. Your post in response to mine is ridiculous- it reminds me why I don't bother with open forums.

No female in the history of this sport has defeated the quality of horses that Zen has.

[andymays]

No female in the history of this sport has defeated the quality of horses that Zen has.


She needs to do it on dirt to eliminate all doubts. The Breeders Cup effort on Pro Ride didn't convince everybody.

[Spalding No!]

.....NO other deep closer has anywhere near this record as some of the best of our times (Aldebaran, Lit de Justice and Strike the Gold were not able to get through)

The difference between Zenyatta and any other top class closer you care to mention (I'm not so sure those 2 sprinters and the thoroughly overrun STG are at the top of that list) is that the former has exactly one race against open company on her race record.

[HollywoodParkStwd]

Excellent first impressions right back atcha, big guy; glad to see you've got us all pegged. Welcome to the forum. :ThmbUp:

My visit here will be very brief- you can count on that- I doubt I'm back after today. In regards to the boards- look at the moderator warnings about all the posts that are constantly deleted due to profanity, hence my comments as such.

[andymays]

My visit here will be very brief- you can count on that- I doubt I'm back after today. In regards to the boards- look at the moderator warnings about all the posts that are constantly deleted due to profanity, hence my comments as such.


Are you saying you need "softer company" to get your points across? ;)

[thorobasePA]

Are you saying you need "softer company" to get your points across? ;)

He's the Zenyatta of PaceAdvantage!

[andymays]

He's the Zenyatta of PaceAdvantage!


Good One! :ThmbUp:


He's making a mistake judging the board on a handful of posts.

[46zilzal]

The difference between Zenyatta and any other top class closer you care to mention (I'm not so sure those 2 sprinters and the thoroughly overrun STG are at the top of that list) is that the former has exactly one race against open company on her race record.
Doesn't matter as it his her winning style that is extraordinary, IF you have any historical perspective to compare her to.HINT: Most don't.

[BluegrassProf]

...passing themselves off as knowledgeable...absurdity...zero intelligence...idiotic...ridiculous...reminds me why I don't bother with open forums.Then by all means, get the hell off of them, or at very least quit making yourself out to be such a damned child with all the name-calling and freshman superiority antics. Not doing yourself - your argument or your overall good will - any favors. Your time could be far better spent.

If racing-knowledeable is what you're after, make no mistake: this is, without a doubt, the place to find it. Perhaps you should take off the rocket-boy blinkers before you start your hunt.

[Kimsus]

I voted for Zenyatta as the HOY, though I will say that without a doubt RA was the best three year old in the country. I do not hold the opinion that she is a 'superhorse' as I believe the Belmont Stakes of Rags to Riches- against Curlin, Tiago and Hard Spun was far better compared to anything RA has done.

The debate still rages- even now, so let me take a quick look at RA and Zenyatta!

Some supposed 'experts' on my boards have pointed to the lower class level in the horses Zenyatta has defeated last year before the BCC, but they simply either have no idea what they are talking about, or else they just like breathing out hot air if you will. The 'poor quality' of opponents only works if a horse HAS NEVER faced horses of high quality, so to use that logic is absurd and idiotic.

1. Add the graded stakes wins of all the horses that RA and Zen defeated in 2009- Zenyatta easily wins even though RA had three more races!

2. Add the graded stakes placements of all the horses they each defeated in 2009- Zenyatta easily wins again.

3. Add the total money earned by horses they defeated- Zenyatta's opponents earned SIX TIMES the total RA's did.

4. RA never ran at 1 1/4, or 1 1/2 miles. This doesn't eliminate her in my book, but when you are asking to be HOY and in the Woodward- the two 'better' older horses that you beat were a combined 4 of 14 in 2009. All the great horses have had bad days....Secretariat ran into a blazing hot Prove Out, as well as Onion and even Angle Light stealing the Wood. Seattle Slew lost to champions Exceller, Dr. Patches and J.O. Tobin, Affirmed was handed his hat twice by Seattle Slew....and RA has lost 4 races already- Garden District only won 2 of 6 races! Sara Loiuse won 4 of 8 races and is a good horse, but she is no champion. Zardana is a good horse as well- I watched her win a Grade 2 here at Hollywood and I said she'd 'upset' RA simply because she was training very well going into that race and she has a ton of heart.

Some of those races RA didn't lose in 2009- obviously, but my point is that the horses that beat her were no 'giant' killers. I know the excuses flowed after RA lost to Zardana, but had Zardana not been in that race- everybody would have said that RA looked like a 'super horse'. Let me return to 2009....

5. The level of the 3 year old filly division in 2009 was horrible! The Kentucky Oaks field was one of the worst in the history of that race! Stone Legacy lost 4 straight allowence or claiming races after the Oaks. Flying Spur, a regular RA victim, only won a Mdn Special in 2009 and is now running in claiming races. AFleet Deceipt- another horse always coming up in RA races did not win a race in 2009. Bon Jovi Girl didn't win any of her starts in 2009!

6. Those who are critical of the horses Zenyatta has defeated have no true knowledge of this sport, nor do they have much intelligence. I've looked over blogs and have constantly read how Zenyatta only beat the likes of ' Dawn After Dawn', 'Lethal Heat', 'Made For Magic', 'Champagne Eyes', 'Hot N' Dusty', 'Gambler's Eye', 'Anabass Creation'....etc

Let's look at those horses;

Dawn After Dawn- Won or placed in a dozen stakes races, over 600k in earnings. Biggest victory was in the Grade 2- La Canada

Made For Magic- Missed the 45 year old track record for 4 1/2 fur by only 2/5 of a second at Keeneland in her debut and made the cover of the DRF- had some setbacks- won the Las Madrinas and placed in several other stakes- over 200k in earnings always fighting injuries.

Champagne Eyes- Won Santa Lucia Handicap- placed in several stakes races, over 200k in earnings.

Hot ' N Dusty- Almost 200k in earnings- has been on the board in 75% of her races.

Gambler's Eye- 250k in earnings- muliple stakes placings.

Annabass Creation- 400k in earning- multiple graded stakes placed in Europe and US.

etc etc etc etc etc etc

And look at the list of horses that Zenyatta has defeated in her career! As Andy Beyer said; 'It is almost beyond compare for a female in the history of the sport'. Granted- he also said that Zenyatta would lose the BCC, but afterwards he changed his tune.

Music Note- 5 Grade 1 wins- was almost the Champion 3 year old filly- just barely missed. Won over $1,600,000 and creamed Indian Blessing in the Ballerina

Ginger Punch- Twice defeated by Zenyatta- do I have to detail her career? Over $3,000,000 in earnings. Won 6 Grade 1 races!!!

Hystericalady- Twice defeated by Zenyatta- same as above- we all know who she is. $2,400,000 in earnings. Won 8 graded stakes races.

Life Is Sweet- Multiple Grade 1 & 2 winner- almost $2,000,000 in earnings. Was retired last month after being injured here at Hollywood.

Sealy Hill- Only horse to win the Canadian Triple Tiara- was Canadian Horse of the Year, Female Turf Champion and earnings of $1,800,000.

Coca Beach- $1,800,000 in earnings- won highly graded races on three continents- won multiple Grade 1 races, as well as two of the top races in the UAE- the Oaks and the Thousand Guineas. Won 2008 Horse of the Year in Chile and filly of the year in the UAE.

Carriage Trail- Multiple stakes placed- over $800,000 in earnings.

Gio Ponti- won 4 grade 1 races in a row- Champion Older horse- ran an incredible BCC even in defeat- over $3,700,000 in earnings- a great horse and true champion.

Einstein- Has earned $3,000,000!!!!!!!!!

Santa Teresita- Multiple graded stakes wins and places- $500k in earnings.

I could go on and on and on with this. The greatest moment of 2009 was Zen winning the BCC. It was one of the best fields in the history of the race. Her Performance stood out miles above anything that RA did- this isn't speculation- it is a fact.

RA will never beat Zen. The excuses were flying when she lost to Zardana- they couldn't just say 'We fought hard and lost'. Had Zardana not been in the race, the headlines would have read; 'Champion RA returns to destory rivals'.

Welcome to the board, excellent, well though out post. Don't let the naysayers bother you too much. It is what it is...

[HollywoodParkStwd]

Then maybe you shouldn't be voting at all.


Great- another clown. Three year old champion Rags to Riches was retired when she re-injured the right front pastern she had fractured while finishing second in the 2007 Gazelle Stakes- she was a great filly.

My point is ABOUT THE QUALITY OF HER RIVALS!!!!!!

Rags won the Belmont Stakes at 1 1/2 miles OVER CURLIN!

Do you know who Curlin is? He is a million times better compared to ANYTHING that RA has beaten on the track. Also, Hard Spun would have trounced the three year old males that RA beat. RA was a great three year old- had one of the best years of any three year old filly in the history of this sport, BUT what RTR did in the Belmont against THAT field was far more impressive- especially considering there is no way in hell RA gets 1 1/2 miles.

[Kimsus]

:bang:

Not to delve into the same massively tired, worn-out, thoroughly-covered debate (which, apparently, you're not yet tired of...go figure! such impressive stamina!), but to clarify: this comment is neither speculation NOR fact, nor is the issue at hand the moment of the year (a title that, like campaign of the year, is a judgement based upon a certain set of criteria that clearly differ from one individual to the next).

It's absolutely no use - and fairly egocentric - to cry "ENDASTORY! YALL AINT GOTZ THE FACTZ!" when you're simply elevating your criteria (myopic though they might be in this case) over the next person's. Fact-based judgement calls cut both ways, as has been driven straight into the ground.

Voted for Zen? Hey, good for you! She's a rockstar! No chance I, or any other rational person, would ever say otherwise. But really, man, it's about time you went ahead and moved on, perhaps hoping for bigger and better in the racing season happening NOW. Maybe if you pay attention this time 'round, your vote'll prove useful. :ThmbUp:

Can you please stop? You are making a fool of yourself Prof...Your bias is showing through AGAIN. One suggestion when you signed up you should have gone with Jess Jackson instead of BlueProf...

[Kimsus]

[QUOTE=HollywoodParkStwd]

Last year Rachel beats Zenyatta on a dirt surface.

Based on what? Using the barometer of Macho Again and BullsBay, D'Tara? You are being silly... BTW please don't tell me because she beyered higher. Otherwise Left Bank might make your list of all time greats... :rolleyes:

[Spalding No!]

You easily make my case regarding the low level of comments left on the boards by those passing themselves off as knowledgeable.

In your case, it was easier. You just gave yourself a screenname that connotes complete stupidity.

I pointed out a ton of information that was 100% true- I easily could have posted far more regarding horses that Zen beat, so you reply with the above absurdity.

Yeah, you did a good job of cherry picking. No mention of surface with regards to her vanquished foes. It was also telling when you conveniently left out multiple Grade 1 winner Gabby's Golden Gal from the Kentucky Oaks with regards to Rachel Alexandra.

The fact that you never heard of the Canadian Triple Tiara- to the point where you ask if I made it up simply shows that you have zero intelligence. You may be a horse racing fan- you may even have your own opinion, but to slur a fact as you did above is idiotic.

Clearly your sarcasm radar is malfunctioning (I suspect its not the only piece of equipment you're having problems with at the moment).

Nevertheless, I presume that the reason I have never heard of the Canadian Triple Tiara is because no one ever talks about it.

The Canadian Triple Tiara is the Woodbine Oaks, the Bison City Stakes and the Wonder Where Stakes. Sealy Hill is the only female in Canadian history to win all three- she was Canadian Horse of the Year AND Female Turf Champion. Sealy Hill beat Panty Raid in Kentucky- if you ever heard of that horse- which I doubt.

Sealy Hill is also probably the only female to attempt to win the Canadian Triple Tiara. I'm sure Sam-Son Farm is kicking themselves for pointing Dance Smartly towards the Canadian Triple Crown during the summer of her 3yo year.

The Bison City? Hah. I Wonder Where that even is.

As for Panty Raid getting beat by Sealy Hill, kudos to her. It took place in the Grade 3 Bourbonette over Turfway's Polytrack.

Ironically, that race is almost as important as the entire Canadian Triple Tiara.

Your post in response to mine is ridiculous- it reminds me why I don't bother with open forums.

Maybe you should pull a Zenyatta then and duck "open" company.

No female in the history of this sport has defeated the quality of horses that Zen has.

I agree. There were much better horses running only a decade or so ago.

[Kimsus]

In your case, it was easier. You just gave yourself a screenname that connotes complete stupidity.



Yeah, you did a good job of cherry picking. No mention of surface with regards to her vanquished foes. It was also telling when you conveniently left out multiple Grade 1 winner Gabby's Golden Gal from the Kentucky Oaks with regards to Rachel Alexandra.



Clearly your sarcasm radar is malfunctioning (I suspect its not the only piece of equipment you're having problems with at the moment).

Nevertheless, I presume that the reason I have never heard of the Canadian Triple Tiara is because no one ever talks about it.



Sealy Hill is also probably the only female to attempt to win the Canadian Triple Tiara. I'm sure Sam-Son Farm is kicking themselves for pointing Dance Smartly towards the Canadian Triple Crown during the summer of her 3yo year.

The Bison City? Hah. I Wonder Where that even is.

As for Panty Raid getting beat by Sealy Hill, kudos to her. It took place in the Grade 3 Bourbonette over Turfway's Polytrack.

Ironically, that race is almost as important as the entire Canadian Triple Tiara.



Maybe you should pull a Zenyatta then and duck "open" company.



I agree. There were much better horses running only a decade or so ago.

You don't think Sealy Hill was a nice horse? Your lack of credibility is riding on your answer...

[andymays]

[QUOTE=andymays]

Based on what? Using the barometer of Macho Again and BullsBay, D'Tara? You are being silly... BTW please don't tell me because she beyered higher. Otherwise Left Bank might make your list of all time greats... :rolleyes:


Based on her ability last year. I guess all those voters were stupid too. :eek:

Just for the record I'm probably gonna bet against her tomorrow.

[46zilzal]

The Bison City is a summer stakes at Fort Erie

[46zilzal]

You don't think Sealy Hill was a nice horse? Your lack of credibility is riding on your answer...
Did she not run a bang up race at Anita in the Breeder's Cup...

This is a good one whom I VOTED FOR at the Sovereign Awards

[BluegrassProf]

Can you please stop? You are making a fool of yourself Prof...Your bias is showing through AGAIN. One suggestion when you signed up you should have gone with Jess Jackson instead of BlueProf...As opposed to yours, my dearest Kimmy? ;) You jumping on the "you're just a Jacksonite poo-head!" bandwagon? Think it's gonna make any difference to me? To racing? To just about anyone or anything else, other than your own sense of accomplishment?

I have my doubts, and if you do as well, perhaps you knock it off and quit wasting thread space. If otherwise, I suggest you ignore me...but then, it'd rob you of that self-satisfaction, wouldn't it? Either way, I'm pleased as punch, and happy to see actual, relevant discussions (even of Zenyatta and Rachel, for example, apparently your cross to bear) displace the consistent attempts at jabbing. In the case of the latter, I've got absolutely NO interest...most of us have moved on.

[Kimsus]

[QUOTE=Kimsus]


Based on her ability last year.

I would like to give you a rebuttal, but for the life of me, I don't know what this means?!

Alot of horses have ability, some even use it, as in 16 times in a row.

[andymays]

[QUOTE=andymays]

I would like to give you a rebuttal, but for the life of me, I don't know what this means?!

Alot of horses have ability, some even use it, as in 16 times in a row.


Let's keep it that way. It works for me. :ThmbUp:

How many times in a row did she win last year? How many times in a row did Rachel win last year?

How many states did Zenyatta win in last year? And Rachel? I can't hear you. ;)

I'm with everyone that might want to vote for Zenyatta as Horse of the last two or three years but not last year alone. Rachel deserved it in 2009.

[Spalding No!]

You don't think Sealy Hill was a nice horse? Your lack of credibility is riding on your answer...

Of course she is. She won the Bourbonette and the Canadian Triple Tiara.

She's also lost some very important races in her career to add to her list of accomplishments.

[Kimsus]

As opposed to yours, my dearest Kimmy? ;) You jumping on the "you're just a Jacksonite poo-head!" bandwagon? Think it's gonna make any difference to me? To racing? To just about anyone or anything else, other than your own sense of accomplishment?

I have my doubts, and if you do as well, perhaps you knock it off and quit wasting thread space. If otherwise, I suggest you ignore me...but then, it'd rob you of that self-satisfaction, wouldn't it? Either way, I'm pleased as punch, and happy to see relevant discussions (of Zenyatta and Rachel, for example, apparently your cross to bear) displace the consistent attempts at jabbing. In the case of the latter, I've got absolutely NO interest...most of us have moved on.

It's mutual I guess, however I do not agree with you alot of the time, infact almost all the time so atleast it is genuine on my part when we do spar. It's your obfuscated ways at jabbing Zenyatta and propping up of Rachel that I take offense to. Anything you say to me on a personal level and you are fair to jab back at me as I am happy to see you have, just runs off my back. So carry on!

[Kimsus]

Did she not run a bang up race at Anita in the Breeder's Cup...

This is a good one whom I VOTED FOR at the Sovereign Awards

She was, I understand she also had her quirks, ie. If she made the lead too early she would pull herself up. Yep, that was one bang up race she ran at SA.

[HollywoodParkStwd]

:bang:

Not to delve into the same massively tired, worn-out, thoroughly-covered debate (which, apparently, you're not yet tired of...go figure! such impressive stamina!), but to clarify: this comment is neither speculation NOR fact,

:bang:

A friend said I should post my 'Why I Voted' blog here and it would start a firestorm, I did it for a laugh as he said it would start a riot- I don't mind at all. I only signed up yesterday and will soon be gone from here anyway. The people who actually voted never really are taken to account for anything- only fans most yell and scream at each other on boards etc.

I stated that it is a fact because no female in the history of this sport won a race against the level of males that Zen did in the BCC- THAT is a fact. No female in the history of this sport has defeated the level of female horses that Zen has either- that is a fact. I would never call anybody who voted for RA any profanity, nor call them any absurd slurs. She had one of the greatest three year old seasons for a filly in the history of this sport. On the flip side, she has lost several races to far inferior females.


nor is the issue at hand the moment of the year (a title that, like campaign of the year, is a judgement based upon a certain set of criteria that clearly differ from one individual to the next).

It's absolutely no use - and fairly egocentric - to cry "ENDASTORY! YALL AINT GOTZ THE FACTZ!" when you're simply elevating your criteria (myopic though they might be in this case) over the next person's. Fact-based judgement calls cut both ways, as has been driven straight into the ground.

It's a forum- you can post whatever you wish- on any topic- on any moment regarding the present or past. I took up a challenge from a friend (A trainer) to post something I did on here since he is a regular and I never bothered. It isn't an 'EndStory' at all, nor is it 'I'm Right And You are Wrong'- my posting is what it is- my opinion worded as I typed it, hence the verbiage I use is my responsibility, just as it is your choice to read it or not.

Voted for Zen? Hey, good for you! She's a rockstar! No chance I, or any other rational person, would ever say otherwise. But really, man, it's about time you went ahead and moved on, perhaps hoping for bigger and better in the racing season happening NOW. Maybe if you pay attention this time 'round, your vote'll prove useful. :ThmbUp:

I posted something I did months ago and had no problem with those that either agree or disagree. There is nothing to get over considering the fact that I have no ownership in Zen, though I have found the responses to be rather hilarious here. I posted what I did when a friend of mine- a trainer asked me why I never posted it (The short essay on my vote) on here. I told him I only joined this forum yesterday to post what I wrote about 1978 and I also wasn't looking to waste hours debating- he challenged me so I posted it in good fun.

Some of you then took it as I had just written it today, or was looking for a war- that is all fine as I stand up for myself- it matters not...........it is what it is- no wonder the admin here posts all the warnings about language and people slaughtering each other- hence posts being deleted. Well.......I responded to the first 6 responses- my hat goes off to the poster who actually suggested a great thread and actually asked a very intelligent questions - I forgot his name- it is too bad that response was in the rare.

I believe this is 'Goodluck & Adios'. :cool:

[the little guy]

Where's a PA Steward when you need one?

Would someone please disqualify this buffooon....and quick? The blinking light has been going on for way too long.

[HollywoodParkStwd]

Of course she is. She won the Bourbonette and the Canadian Triple Tiara.

She's also lost some very important races in her career to add to her list of accomplishments.

I thought I was finished after my last posting a moment ago- one day in- one day out, but the above response meant what exactly? RA lost many races to average females......and?

You might be talking about Easy Goer who lost the 4 of the biggest races of his career- the Derby, Preakness, BCC and the Met.

Sealy Hill was a great filly- she was Canadian Horse of the Year and beat Panty Raid at Churchill. She did lose the Filly & Mare Turf- running a strong second- and? I never said she was undefeated, she was one of the greatest Canadian females of all time and she alone was far better compared to any filly RA defeated.

The turf races she lost at Woodbine were both important turf races run there- that is true- but she was also a three year old running against older horses and she ran her tail off- both excellent 2nd place finishes.

She earned almost $1,800,000- I guess that was chump change.

What female in the history of this sport has the Grade 1/2 winning streak that Zen does?

What males can compare?

What female in the history of this sport has faced a level on opposition that can compare to Zenyatta? I would LOVE to hear that one- please tell me her name and I'll check my office here to see why she isn't on my wall next to Davona Dale, Dahlia (You have no idea who she is), Susan's Girl and Ruffian.

Well- now that wraps it up- the champagne can be broken out and my departing- I'm done and gone.

Goodluck in the Derby and have a great year to all!

[HollywoodParkStwd]

Where's a PA Steward when you need one?

Would someone please disqualify this buffooon....and quick? The blinking light has been going on for way too long.

You mistake me for your father- being you know the word buffooon- as per your unique spelling. If you read all of my posts very closely- they don't violate the terms of service here as I responded to each person in the same tone they responded to me.

THAT is my last here- I will resist reading further and wish you all well.

Goodluck in the Derby- I'm done with these boards.

[46zilzal]

Gallorette, Miesque, Fancy, Ta Wee lots of them compare

[hazzardm]

You mistake me for your father- being you know the word buffooon- as per your unique spelling. If you read all of my posts very closely- they don't violate the terms of service here as I responded to each person in the same tone they responded to me.

THAT is my last here- I will resist reading further and wish you all well.

Goodluck in the Derby- I'm done with these boards.

:lol: I don't think he would last long in the Off-Topic board.

[Kimsus]

I thought I was finished after my last posting a moment ago- one day in- one day out, but the above response meant what exactly? RA lost many races to average females......and?



With this lack of appetite for discussion, maybe these boards are not for you. I know I wished you welcome not just a moment ago, but it may has well been hello-goodbye. Anyway all the best.

[Steve R]

Great- another clown. Three year old champion Rags to Riches was retired when she re-injured the right front pastern she had fractured while finishing second in the 2007 Gazelle Stakes- she was a great filly.

My point is ABOUT THE QUALITY OF HER RIVALS!!!!!!

Rags won the Belmont Stakes at 1 1/2 miles OVER CURLIN!

Do you know who Curlin is? He is a million times better compared to ANYTHING that RA has beaten on the track. Also, Hard Spun would have trounced the three year old males that RA beat. RA was a great three year old- had one of the best years of any three year old filly in the history of this sport, BUT what RTR did in the Belmont against THAT field was far more impressive- especially considering there is no way in hell RA gets 1 1/2 miles.
When someone uses a phrase announcing a horse is "a million times better" than anything, it's pretty much a sign of ignorance..and immaturity. If I remember correctly, Curlin was trounced in the Derby, won the Preakness by the slimmest of margins, lost the Belmont to the filly and then lost again decisively in the Haskell before he went on to the JCGC through DWC high point of a career that otherwise is indistinguishable from those of a host of G1/G2 runners. And in his entire career he topped a 114 BSF only once, not to mention that the Racing Post assessment of his DWC field was that it was among the very weakest in the race's history. Apparently your standard of greatness is quite limited. Some of us like to see horses that actually do run very fast. Neither he nor Zenyatta fill that bill regardless of the names of the races they won...or how many. There is a point where physiology prevails, which is why Dr. Fager towers over Cigar, for example.

[Cardus]

People, this has GOT to be a freakin' joke.

It's Kentucky Derby weekend and the dude started a "Zenyatta/RA" thread. The 1,000th such thread, probably.

[GaryG]

Best not to respond to threads started by an obvious troll.....look at his name.....:lol: I think he was a frequent flyer just trying to start trouble.

[PaceAdvantage]

If this guy is a Hollywood Park Steward, then I'm the Easter Bunny.

Why would a Hollywood Park steward be posting from a location about 1,000 miles southwest of Hollywood Park anyway? Guess he took the day off today to fly out there and waste time posting on PaceAdvantage.... :lol:

[tzipi]

People, this has GOT to be a freakin' joke.

It's Kentucky Derby weekend and the dude started a "Zenyatta/RA" thread. The 1,000th such thread, probably.

Totally agree :ThmbUp: . It's so overplayed.

[PaceAdvantage]

no wonder the admin here posts all the warnings about language and people slaughtering each other- hence posts being deleted.I love it when they use "tells" like this...it makes my job so much easier...not that this was a tough one to begin with...

[born2ride]

I voted for Zenyatta as the HOY, though I will say that without a doubt RA was the best three year old in the country. I do not hold the opinion that she is a 'superhorse' as I believe the Belmont Stakes of Rags to Riches- against Curlin, Tiago and Hard Spun was far better compared to anything RA has done.

The debate still rages- even now, so let me take a quick look at RA and Zenyatta!

Some supposed 'experts' on my boards have pointed to the lower class level in the horses Zenyatta has defeated last year before the BCC, but they simply either have no idea what they are talking about, or else they just like breathing out hot air if you will. The 'poor quality' of opponents only works if a horse HAS NEVER faced horses of high quality, so to use that logic is absurd and idiotic.

1. Add the graded stakes wins of all the horses that RA and Zen defeated in 2009- Zenyatta easily wins even though RA had three more races!

2. Add the graded stakes placements of all the horses they each defeated in 2009- Zenyatta easily wins again.

3. Add the total money earned by horses they defeated- Zenyatta's opponents earned SIX TIMES the total RA's did.

4. RA never ran at 1 1/4, or 1 1/2 miles. This doesn't eliminate her in my book, but when you are asking to be HOY and in the Woodward- the two 'better' older horses that you beat were a combined 4 of 14 in 2009. All the great horses have had bad days....Secretariat ran into a blazing hot Prove Out, as well as Onion and even Angle Light stealing the Wood. Seattle Slew lost to champions Exceller, Dr. Patches and J.O. Tobin, Affirmed was handed his hat twice by Seattle Slew....and RA has lost 4 races already- Garden District only won 2 of 6 races! Sara Loiuse won 4 of 8 races and is a good horse, but she is no champion. Zardana is a good horse as well- I watched her win a Grade 2 here at Hollywood and I said she'd 'upset' RA simply because she was training very well going into that race and she has a ton of heart.

Some of those races RA didn't lose in 2009- obviously, but my point is that the horses that beat her were no 'giant' killers. I know the excuses flowed after RA lost to Zardana, but had Zardana not been in that race- everybody would have said that RA looked like a 'super horse'. Let me return to 2009....

5. The level of the 3 year old filly division in 2009 was horrible! The Kentucky Oaks field was one of the worst in the history of that race! Stone Legacy lost 4 straight allowence or claiming races after the Oaks. Flying Spur, a regular RA victim, only won a Mdn Special in 2009 and is now running in claiming races. AFleet Deceipt- another horse always coming up in RA races did not win a race in 2009. Bon Jovi Girl didn't win any of her starts in 2009!

6. Those who are critical of the horses Zenyatta has defeated have no true knowledge of this sport, nor do they have much intelligence. I've looked over blogs and have constantly read how Zenyatta only beat the likes of ' Dawn After Dawn', 'Lethal Heat', 'Made For Magic', 'Champagne Eyes', 'Hot N' Dusty', 'Gambler's Eye', 'Anabass Creation'....etc

Let's look at those horses;

Dawn After Dawn- Won or placed in a dozen stakes races, over 600k in earnings. Biggest victory was in the Grade 2- La Canada

Made For Magic- Missed the 45 year old track record for 4 1/2 fur by only 2/5 of a second at Keeneland in her debut and made the cover of the DRF- had some setbacks- won the Las Madrinas and placed in several other stakes- over 200k in earnings always fighting injuries.

Champagne Eyes- Won Santa Lucia Handicap- placed in several stakes races, over 200k in earnings.

Hot ' N Dusty- Almost 200k in earnings- has been on the board in 75% of her races.

Gambler's Eye- 250k in earnings- muliple stakes placings.

Annabass Creation- 400k in earning- multiple graded stakes placed in Europe and US.

etc etc etc etc etc etc

And look at the list of horses that Zenyatta has defeated in her career! As Andy Beyer said; 'It is almost beyond compare for a female in the history of the sport'. Granted- he also said that Zenyatta would lose the BCC, but afterwards he changed his tune.

Music Note- 5 Grade 1 wins- was almost the Champion 3 year old filly- just barely missed. Won over $1,600,000 and creamed Indian Blessing in the Ballerina

Ginger Punch- Twice defeated by Zenyatta- do I have to detail her career? Over $3,000,000 in earnings. Won 6 Grade 1 races!!!

Hystericalady- Twice defeated by Zenyatta- same as above- we all know who she is. $2,400,000 in earnings. Won 8 graded stakes races.

Life Is Sweet- Multiple Grade 1 & 2 winner- almost $2,000,000 in earnings. Was retired last month after being injured here at Hollywood.

Sealy Hill- Only horse to win the Canadian Triple Tiara- was Canadian Horse of the Year, Female Turf Champion and earnings of $1,800,000.

Coca Beach- $1,800,000 in earnings- won highly graded races on three continents- won multiple Grade 1 races, as well as two of the top races in the UAE- the Oaks and the Thousand Guineas. Won 2008 Horse of the Year in Chile and filly of the year in the UAE.

Carriage Trail- Multiple stakes placed- over $800,000 in earnings.

Gio Ponti- won 4 grade 1 races in a row- Champion Older horse- ran an incredible BCC even in defeat- over $3,700,000 in earnings- a great horse and true champion.

Einstein- Has earned $3,000,000!!!!!!!!!

Santa Teresita- Multiple graded stakes wins and places- $500k in earnings.

I could go on and on and on with this. The greatest moment of 2009 was Zen winning the BCC. It was one of the best fields in the history of the race. Her Performance stood out miles above anything that RA did- this isn't speculation- it is a fact.

RA will never beat Zen. The excuses were flying when she lost to Zardana- they couldn't just say 'We fought hard and lost'. Had Zardana not been in the race, the headlines would have read; 'Champion RA returns to destory rivals'.

HOY for 2009 is just that - 2009. 2008 should not enter into the equation. Here are figures for 2009:

1-3. Rachel beat more G1 winning females (each faced the same number of G1 winning males)
Rachel's female opponents won more G1s while Zenyatta's male opponents won more G1s
Rachel's female opponents won more money as did her male opponents
Rachel's female opponents won more GSW, GSP, SW, and SP than Zenyatta, same for Rachel's male opponents
Rachel faced over twice as many males as Zenyatta, and faced more females than Zenyatta


4. Zenyatta never ran at 1 1/2 miles either.

5. Out of the 11 females Zenyatta faced, only one horse has one or more graded stakes wins - Life Is Sweet. Compared to the 7 females that Rachel beat that have GSWs. In other words, 9% of the females Zenyatta faced have a GSW, while 29% of the females Rachel faced have a GSW. And you say the 3yo filly division was horrible - if the older female division was better, it's clear Zenyatta didn't face them! Only one horse Zenyatta faced went on to win a graded stakes last year - Life Is Sweet. Compare this to 10 GSWs from horses Rachel faced. Afleet Deceit won twice last year as did Bon Jovi Girl.

6. Maybe if you had your facts straight you'd be more believable and considered more intelligent.

In 2009:
Dawn After Dawn - earned a little over $200k, 2 wins from 9 starts, 0 GSW, 2 GSP
Made for Magic - earned a little over $100k, 4 wins from 16 starts, 0 GSW, 0 GSP
Champagne Eyes - earned just under $95k, 2 wins from 7 starts, 0 GSW, 0 GSP
Hot 'n' Dusty - earned a little over $311k, 3 wins from 17 starts, 0 GSW, 0 GSP
Gambler's Eye? I assume you mean Gambler's Justice - earned $65k, 0 wins from 7 starts, 0 GSW, 0 GSP
Anabaa's Creation - earned just under $100k, 1 win from 4 starts, 0 GSW, 1 GSP

Is the above list the older female division that you seem to think is so much better than the 3yo filly division was last year? :lol:

Music Note, Ginger Punch, Hystericalady, Sealy Hill, Santa Teresita, and Carriage Trail did not run against Zenyatta in '09. BTW, the name is spelled Cocoa Beach, not Coca Beach. In '09 Cocoa Beach won just under $94k, won no graded stakes. Einstein, won $1.3m and two G1s from 8 starts. In '09 he was far from his best form. In fact, most of the horses Zenyatta faced in '09 had forms that were in decline as their records indicate.

Zen's performance in the Classic was superb, and definitely one of the best performances of last year. However it is NOT fact that it better than any of Rachel's performances, that is merely your opinion.

[tzipi]

I didn't give much thought to this thread because as I stated before, I agree with other people, it's Derby time. But is HollywoodSteward seriously using Zen's 2008 season achievements as their proof she should've won horse of the year in 2009?? :bang: . 2009 HOY is for 2009, not 2008.

[GaryG]

Why would a Hollywood Park steward be posting from a location about 1,000 miles southwest of Hollywood Park anyway? Wouldn't that be in the middle of the ocean?

[letswastemoney]

Wouldn't that be in the middle of the ocean?
I'm guessing Hawaii...?

[Cratos]

HollywoodParkStwd, I am a big Zenyatta fan and if you have followed the posts on this forum you would know that.

Also, I said at the time on this forum when the HOTY was to be awarded for 2009 that Rachel Alexandra deserved the HOTY award over Zenyatta and my rationale was that her connections took more risk and she (Rachel) met the challenge.

Zenyatta connections in my opinion should have shipped her East for a race like the Personal Ensign or the JCGC and then her credibility for being awarded the 2009 HOTY would have been substantiated if she had won both or either of those races.

Also, for you to say that Zenyatta have faced the toughest group of male horses ever by a female horse is begging for clarity because Winning Colors in winning the 1988 Ky Derby faced Forty Niner, Risen Star, and Seeking the Gold and by any measurement they can be equitably compared against the males in the 2009 BC Classic.

Also you can add Shuvee to the list of female horses who beat a stellar field of male horses because in 1970 Shuvee became the only filly to ever defeat male horses in the grueling 2 mile Jockey Club Gold Cup race. Also in 1970 she won the Triple Tiara.

[PaceAdvantage]

Wouldn't that be in the middle of the ocean?My bad...I meant southeast...not southwest... :lol:

[Rackon]

PA, maybe you should just make a sticky thread "Rachel vs Zen", merge all the dsicussions and debate into it, and just give the anatgonists their own special little playground.:lol:

Now...back to the Oaks & Derby.:jump:

[my_nameaintearl]

i think i could make a name on here SANTAANITASTWD

[Steve R]

[snip]Also, for you to say that Zenyatta have faced the toughest group of male horses ever by a female horse is begging for clarity because Winning Colors in winning the 1988 Ky Derby faced Forty Niner, Risen Star, and Seeking the Gold and by any measurement they can be equitably compared against the males in the 2009 BC Classic.

Also you can add Shuvee to the list of female horses who beat a stellar field of male horses because in 1970 Shuvee became the only filly to ever defeat male horses in the grueling 2 mile Jockey Club Gold Cup race. Also in 1970 she won the Triple Tiara.
The performance in the DWC of Zenyatta's BC Classic male rivals is hardly a ringing endorsement of their being the toughest group of male horses ever faced by a female horse. Not even close. Your Winning Colors example is right on, as is the Shuvee example. Numerous Euro distaffers have defeated far better fields of males in US turf races (e.g., Miesque, Pebbles, Royal Heroine, Goldikova) not to mention commonplace wins by females over males at the highest levels in Europe. I think Safely Kept in the 1990 BC Sprint qualifies as well when she defeated a future US HOtY and an all-Europe HOtY. There was nothing in Zenyatta's BC Classic comparable to those two. There are probably other examples, but if that 2009 BC Classic field is the toughest, especially in the context of an alien surface for half the field, then "toughest" needs to be redefined.

[Buckeye]

I voted for Zenyatta as the HOY, though I will say that without a doubt RA was the best three year old in the country. I do not hold the opinion that she is a 'superhorse' as I believe the Belmont Stakes of Rags to Riches- against Curlin, Tiago and Hard Spun was far better compared to anything RA has done.

The debate still rages- even now, so let me take a quick look at RA and Zenyatta!

Some supposed 'experts' on my boards have pointed to the lower class level in the horses Zenyatta has defeated last year before the BCC, but they simply either have no idea what they are talking about, or else they just like breathing out hot air if you will. The 'poor quality' of opponents only works if a horse HAS NEVER faced horses of high quality, so to use that logic is absurd and idiotic.

1. Add the graded stakes wins of all the horses that RA and Zen defeated in 2009- Zenyatta easily wins even though RA had three more races!

2. Add the graded stakes placements of all the horses they each defeated in 2009- Zenyatta easily wins again.

3. Add the total money earned by horses they defeated- Zenyatta's opponents earned SIX TIMES the total RA's did.

4. RA never ran at 1 1/4, or 1 1/2 miles. This doesn't eliminate her in my book, but when you are asking to be HOY and in the Woodward- the two 'better' older horses that you beat were a combined 4 of 14 in 2009. All the great horses have had bad days....Secretariat ran into a blazing hot Prove Out, as well as Onion and even Angle Light stealing the Wood. Seattle Slew lost to champions Exceller, Dr. Patches and J.O. Tobin, Affirmed was handed his hat twice by Seattle Slew....and RA has lost 4 races already- Garden District only won 2 of 6 races! Sara Loiuse won 4 of 8 races and is a good horse, but she is no champion. Zardana is a good horse as well- I watched her win a Grade 2 here at Hollywood and I said she'd 'upset' RA simply because she was training very well going into that race and she has a ton of heart.

Some of those races RA didn't lose in 2009- obviously, but my point is that the horses that beat her were no 'giant' killers. I know the excuses flowed after RA lost to Zardana, but had Zardana not been in that race- everybody would have said that RA looked like a 'super horse'. Let me return to 2009....

5. The level of the 3 year old filly division in 2009 was horrible! The Kentucky Oaks field was one of the worst in the history of that race! Stone Legacy lost 4 straight allowence or claiming races after the Oaks. Flying Spur, a regular RA victim, only won a Mdn Special in 2009 and is now running in claiming races. AFleet Deceipt- another horse always coming up in RA races did not win a race in 2009. Bon Jovi Girl didn't win any of her starts in 2009!

6. Those who are critical of the horses Zenyatta has defeated have no true knowledge of this sport, nor do they have much intelligence. I've looked over blogs and have constantly read how Zenyatta only beat the likes of ' Dawn After Dawn', 'Lethal Heat', 'Made For Magic', 'Champagne Eyes', 'Hot N' Dusty', 'Gambler's Eye', 'Anabass Creation'....etc

Let's look at those horses;

Dawn After Dawn- Won or placed in a dozen stakes races, over 600k in earnings. Biggest victory was in the Grade 2- La Canada

Made For Magic- Missed the 45 year old track record for 4 1/2 fur by only 2/5 of a second at Keeneland in her debut and made the cover of the DRF- had some setbacks- won the Las Madrinas and placed in several other stakes- over 200k in earnings always fighting injuries.

Champagne Eyes- Won Santa Lucia Handicap- placed in several stakes races, over 200k in earnings.

Hot ' N Dusty- Almost 200k in earnings- has been on the board in 75% of her races.

Gambler's Eye- 250k in earnings- muliple stakes placings.

Annabass Creation- 400k in earning- multiple graded stakes placed in Europe and US.

etc etc etc etc etc etc

And look at the list of horses that Zenyatta has defeated in her career! As Andy Beyer said; 'It is almost beyond compare for a female in the history of the sport'. Granted- he also said that Zenyatta would lose the BCC, but afterwards he changed his tune.

Music Note- 5 Grade 1 wins- was almost the Champion 3 year old filly- just barely missed. Won over $1,600,000 and creamed Indian Blessing in the Ballerina

Ginger Punch- Twice defeated by Zenyatta- do I have to detail her career? Over $3,000,000 in earnings. Won 6 Grade 1 races!!!

Hystericalady- Twice defeated by Zenyatta- same as above- we all know who she is. $2,400,000 in earnings. Won 8 graded stakes races.

Life Is Sweet- Multiple Grade 1 & 2 winner- almost $2,000,000 in earnings. Was retired last month after being injured here at Hollywood.

Sealy Hill- Only horse to win the Canadian Triple Tiara- was Canadian Horse of the Year, Female Turf Champion and earnings of $1,800,000.

Coca Beach- $1,800,000 in earnings- won highly graded races on three continents- won multiple Grade 1 races, as well as two of the top races in the UAE- the Oaks and the Thousand Guineas. Won 2008 Horse of the Year in Chile and filly of the year in the UAE.

Carriage Trail- Multiple stakes placed- over $800,000 in earnings.

Gio Ponti- won 4 grade 1 races in a row- Champion Older horse- ran an incredible BCC even in defeat- over $3,700,000 in earnings- a great horse and true champion.

Einstein- Has earned $3,000,000!!!!!!!!!

Santa Teresita- Multiple graded stakes wins and places- $500k in earnings.

I could go on and on and on with this. The greatest moment of 2009 was Zen winning the BCC. It was one of the best fields in the history of the race. Her Performance stood out miles above anything that RA did- this isn't speculation- it is a fact.

RA will never beat Zen. The excuses were flying when she lost to Zardana- they couldn't just say 'We fought hard and lost'. Had Zardana not been in the race, the headlines would have read; 'Champion RA returns to destory rivals'.

Bunch of spilt milk under the bridge. Beat Rachel anytime you want. Also beat somebody yourself. Zenyatta can define her greatness but it will take more work. Nothing to do with who
WAS the 2009 Horse of the Year. Zenyatta mostly hid in Poly land which is exactly why she didn't win.

[Kimsus]

The performance in the DWC of Zenyatta's BC Classic male rivals is hardly a ringing endorsement of their being the toughest group of male horses ever faced by a female horse. Not even close.

Could we please stop with the selective snip and clip semantics, you and I know the Classic field was not as bad as you would want to make it out to be, I wonder what your position was on the field Rachel faced in the Woodward last year, if I was here I would certainly remember. Though I have a feeling I know. Alot of horses didn't run their races on DWC day including 3 time arc runner up Youmzain, a pretty damn good horse I would say, so I don't know what you would conclude by that. It was a parade of longshots that day so I guess the whole card $ucked right?

[Buckeye]

it's real simple. Beat Rachel or somebody for God sakes and then have an argument. Beat somebody. Zenyatta won the Classic but did she beat anybody? No.

[letswastemoney]

I'm starting to think the OP is trolling for attention as well.

[Kimsus]

it's real simple. Beat Rachel or somebody for God sakes and then have an argument. Beat somebody. Zenyatta won the Classic but did she beat anybody? No.

What's your definition of "beat somebody"? By that do you mean nobody...Listen Rachel could have been there but ducked out for the rest of the year after her stirring win over Macho Again and Bullsbay. Quality Road & Summer Bird showed up and were willing to try. Give them points for this, atleast they were sports to try. You can take issue with the surface, but don't tell me she beat nobody. In some minds a horse that can win on more than one surface is superior to one that can only win on one. Think about that one.

[Kimsus]

I'm starting to think the OP is trolling for attention as well.

I'm almost sorry I welcomed him/her, to make a post like this one and to simply limp put of here. I would be embaressed of having such little backbone.

Kimsus is not impressed. :ThmbDown:

[Buckeye]

and naturally she can't even begin to beat those who came before her. Again, we will Never know but in this case, at least, take on Rachel and beat her.

One of the relatively few times the voters got it right was last year.

Hats off to the voters. I'm not contradicting myself, the voters usually get it right. There is no better way. Voters are not perfect are you? If Zenyatta is truly one of the best ever she will show that. So far she has not done that in my opinion.

[Buckeye]

What's your definition of "beat somebody"? By that do you mean nobody...Listen Rachel could have been there but ducked out for the rest of the year after her stirring win over Macho Again and Bullsbay. Quality Road & Summer Bird showed up and were willing to try. Give them points for this, atleast they were sports to try. You can take issue with the surface, but don't tell me she beat nobody. In some minds a horse that can win on more than one surface is superior to one that can only win on one. Think about that one.

I don't know what to "think" other than who did she beat? You didn't mention anybody. Moving forward, beat Rachel and/or win against somebody. Sportiness does not count. The Voters were right.
.

[Kimsus]

I don't know what to "think" other than who did she beat? You didn't mention anybody. Moving forward, beat Rachel and/or win against somebody. Sportiness does not count. The Voters were right.
.

1 Mine That Bird
2 Colonel John
3 Summer Bird
5 Twice Over
6 Richard's Kid
7 Gio Ponti
8 Einstein
9 Girolamo
10 Rip Van Winkle
11 Quality Road (damn gate behavour)
13 Awesome Gem

Alot better than D'tara, Pass The Point, Bullsbay...ect you get the message. But isn't this the jest to what you are making your argument for?

[Buckeye]

whatever. Settle it on the track and stop giving lists of nobodies.

Nobody loved Rachel that much. The voters had their say.

[Kimsus]

whatever. Settle it on the track and stop giving lists of nobodies.

Nobody loved Rachel that much. The voters had their say.

By the way I never mentioned voters or HOY once. Don't know why you keep bringing this up when no one is disputing HOY 2009.

[Buckeye]

just stating the obvious. Rachel beat just as good bunch of slugs as Zenyatta ever did. And she did it as a three-year-old! Give her some points for that at least. I don't even know what we're arguing about considering my low IQ. Settle it on the track. That's what Ruffian did. Let's see where the fun stops. Not a contradiction.

[PaceAdvantage]

1 Mine That Bird
2 Colonel John
3 Summer Bird
5 Twice Over
6 Richard's Kid
7 Gio Ponti
8 Einstein
9 Girolamo
10 Rip Van Winkle
11 Quality Road (damn gate behavour)
13 Awesome Gem

Alot better than D'tara, Pass The Point, Bullsbay...ect you get the message. But isn't this the jest to what you are making your argument for?You guys love to rip the Woodward field...allow me to once again clear up some of your confusion, since some of you in this thread seem easily impressed:

Da'Tara: Grade 1 Winner of $732,619

Cool Coal Man: Winner of $650,831

Bullsbay: Multiple Graded Stakes Winner & Grade 1 Winner (Beat Macho Again and Commentator while winning the G1 Whitney prior to facing Rachel in the Woodward). Winner of 7 of 18 lifetime and $810,943

Macho Again: Multiple Graded Stakes Winner & Grade 1 Winner (Beat Asiatic Boy and Einstein while winning the G1 Stephen Foster prior to facing Rachel in the Woodward). Winner of 6 of 19 lifetime and $1,625,247

It's a Bird: Multiple Graded Stakes Winner. Winner of 10 of 31 lifetime and $1,114,485.

Asiatic Boy: Multiple Graded Stakes Winner (Dubai). Winner of 7 of 17 lifetime and $3,276,130. Finished 2nd to Curlin in the 2008 Dubai World Cup. Came into 2009 Woodward off of second place finishes in both the Suburban Hcap. and Stephen Foster.

Past the Point: Finished 2nd to Curlin in the 2008 Woodward.

Rachel had already beaten Numbers 1 and 2 on your list, Kimsus, and ended up beating horses in the Woodward who had already beaten number 8 on your list.

So, as you can see, the Woodward wasn't exactly the field of high-level claimers some like to make it out to be. Rachel Alexandra faced a very solid field of salty, older males, including three Grade 1 winners.

[Kimsus]

just stating the obvious. Rachel beat just as good bunch of slugs as Zenyatta ever did. And she did it as a three-year-old! Give her some points for that at least. I don't even know what we're arguing about considering my low IQ. Settle it on the track. That's what Ruffian did. Let's see where the fun stops. Not a contradiction.

You don't have to go there, no one implied you had a low IQ. We were discussing horseracing nothing more, nothing less.

[Kimsus]

You guys love to rip the Woodward field...allow me to once again clear up some of your confusion, since some of you in this thread seem easily impressed:

Da'Tara: Grade 1 Winner of $732,619

Cool Coal Man: Winner of $650,831

Bullsbay: Multiple Graded Stakes Winner & Grade 1 Winner (Beat Macho Again and Commentator while winning the G1 Whitney prior to facing Rachel in the Woodward). Winner of 7 of 18 lifetime and $810,943

Macho Again: Multiple Graded Stakes Winner & Grade 1 Winner (Beat Asiatic Boy and Einstein while winning the G1 Stephen Foster prior to facing Rachel in the Woodward). Winner of 6 of 19 lifetime and $1,625,247

It's a Bird: Multiple Graded Stakes Winner. Winner of 10 of 31 lifetime and $1,114,485.

Asiatic Boy: Multiple Graded Stakes Winner (Dubai). Winner of 7 of 17 lifetime and $3,276,130. Finished 2nd to Curlin in the 2008 Dubai World Cup. Came into 2009 Woodward off of second place finishes in both the Suburban Hcap. and Stephen Foster.

Past the Point: Finished 2nd to Curlin in the 2008 Woodward.

Rachel had already beaten Numbers 1 and 2 on your list, Kimsus, and ended up beating horses in the Woodward who had already beaten number 8 on your list.

So, as you can see, the Woodward wasn't exactly the field of high-level claimers some like to make it out to be. Rachel Alexandra faced a very solid field of salty, older males, including three Grade 1 winners.

Bullsbay and Macho Again both finished out of the money in their next combined 4 starts, even allowing for 1 off race it didn't auger well for the quality of the Woodward field. D'tara was done after the Belmont and Pass the Point may as well been remamed Pass the Prime. I commend you for trying but I just don't see it being anything more than a modestly talented Gr.1 and that is putting it politely. If Rachel moves fwd tommorow maybe the connections will feel confident to put her in another open Hdcp again this year and frankly this is what makes tommorow's race interesting.

[Buckeye]

Let's put it this way (my IQ is only 94) but Tiznow won the Classic two years in a row, and Presumably against somebody and was the only two time winner of this race. So why are we talking about anybody else? Simple. It ain't that simple. Because Zenyatta won last year's Classic is no qualification in of itself to be be the greatest. Back it up as Ali said. Then it ain't braggin.

[PaceAdvantage]

Bullsbay and Macho Again both finished out of the money in their next combined 4 starts, even allowing for 1 off race it didn't auger well for the quality of the Woodward field.Does it matter more what they did after the Woodward, or the credentials they had coming into the Woodward?

After all, the horses behind Zenyatta in the BC Classic haven't exactly set the world on fire since...

[only11]

You guys love to rip the Woodward field...allow me to once again clear up some of your confusion, since some of you in this thread seem easily impressed:

Da'Tara: Grade 1 Winner of $732,619

Cool Coal Man: Winner of $650,831

Bullsbay: Multiple Graded Stakes Winner & Grade 1 Winner (Beat Macho Again and Commentator while winning the G1 Whitney prior to facing Rachel in the Woodward). Winner of 7 of 18 lifetime and $810,943

Macho Again: Multiple Graded Stakes Winner & Grade 1 Winner (Beat Asiatic Boy and Einstein while winning the G1 Stephen Foster prior to facing Rachel in the Woodward). Winner of 6 of 19 lifetime and $1,625,247

It's a Bird: Multiple Graded Stakes Winner. Winner of 10 of 31 lifetime and $1,114,485.

Asiatic Boy: Multiple Graded Stakes Winner (Dubai). Winner of 7 of 17 lifetime and $3,276,130. Finished 2nd to Curlin in the 2008 Dubai World Cup. Came into 2009 Woodward off of second place finishes in both the Suburban Hcap. and Stephen Foster.

Past the Point: Finished 2nd to Curlin in the 2008 Woodward.

Rachel had already beaten Numbers 1 and 2 on your list, Kimsus, and ended up beating horses in the Woodward who had already beaten number 8 on your list.

So, as you can see, the Woodward wasn't exactly the field of high-level claimers some like to make it out to be. Rachel Alexandra faced a very solid field of salty, older males, including three Grade 1 winners.
PA i agree..but the horses in the Woodward there best days were long ago...Would you agree?

[cj]

PA i agree..but the horses in the Woodward there best days were long ago...Would you agree?

I wouldn't. A few sure, but others "best days" were in the couple races right before the Woodward and the Woodward itself.

It is pretty funny this thread is still going when the odds the person that started the thread actually had an Eclipse vote or 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1. A Sovereign Award sure, but not an Eclipse.

[gm10]

I voted for Zenyatta as the HOY, though I will say that without a doubt RA was the best three year old in the country. I do not hold the opinion that she is a 'superhorse' as I believe the Belmont Stakes of Rags to Riches- against Curlin, Tiago and Hard Spun was far better compared to anything RA has done.

The debate still rages- even now, so let me take a quick look at RA and Zenyatta!

Some supposed 'experts' on my boards have pointed to the lower class level in the horses Zenyatta has defeated last year before the BCC, but they simply either have no idea what they are talking about, or else they just like breathing out hot air if you will. The 'poor quality' of opponents only works if a horse HAS NEVER faced horses of high quality, so to use that logic is absurd and idiotic.

1. Add the graded stakes wins of all the horses that RA and Zen defeated in 2009- Zenyatta easily wins even though RA had three more races!

2. Add the graded stakes placements of all the horses they each defeated in 2009- Zenyatta easily wins again.

3. Add the total money earned by horses they defeated- Zenyatta's opponents earned SIX TIMES the total RA's did.

4. RA never ran at 1 1/4, or 1 1/2 miles. This doesn't eliminate her in my book, but when you are asking to be HOY and in the Woodward- the two 'better' older horses that you beat were a combined 4 of 14 in 2009. All the great horses have had bad days....Secretariat ran into a blazing hot Prove Out, as well as Onion and even Angle Light stealing the Wood. Seattle Slew lost to champions Exceller, Dr. Patches and J.O. Tobin, Affirmed was handed his hat twice by Seattle Slew....and RA has lost 4 races already- Garden District only won 2 of 6 races! Sara Loiuse won 4 of 8 races and is a good horse, but she is no champion. Zardana is a good horse as well- I watched her win a Grade 2 here at Hollywood and I said she'd 'upset' RA simply because she was training very well going into that race and she has a ton of heart.

Some of those races RA didn't lose in 2009- obviously, but my point is that the horses that beat her were no 'giant' killers. I know the excuses flowed after RA lost to Zardana, but had Zardana not been in that race- everybody would have said that RA looked like a 'super horse'. Let me return to 2009....

5. The level of the 3 year old filly division in 2009 was horrible! The Kentucky Oaks field was one of the worst in the history of that race! Stone Legacy lost 4 straight allowence or claiming races after the Oaks. Flying Spur, a regular RA victim, only won a Mdn Special in 2009 and is now running in claiming races. AFleet Deceipt- another horse always coming up in RA races did not win a race in 2009. Bon Jovi Girl didn't win any of her starts in 2009!

6. Those who are critical of the horses Zenyatta has defeated have no true knowledge of this sport, nor do they have much intelligence. I've looked over blogs and have constantly read how Zenyatta only beat the likes of ' Dawn After Dawn', 'Lethal Heat', 'Made For Magic', 'Champagne Eyes', 'Hot N' Dusty', 'Gambler's Eye', 'Anabass Creation'....etc

Let's look at those horses;

Dawn After Dawn- Won or placed in a dozen stakes races, over 600k in earnings. Biggest victory was in the Grade 2- La Canada

Made For Magic- Missed the 45 year old track record for 4 1/2 fur by only 2/5 of a second at Keeneland in her debut and made the cover of the DRF- had some setbacks- won the Las Madrinas and placed in several other stakes- over 200k in earnings always fighting injuries.

Champagne Eyes- Won Santa Lucia Handicap- placed in several stakes races, over 200k in earnings.

Hot ' N Dusty- Almost 200k in earnings- has been on the board in 75% of her races.

Gambler's Eye- 250k in earnings- muliple stakes placings.

Annabass Creation- 400k in earning- multiple graded stakes placed in Europe and US.

etc etc etc etc etc etc

And look at the list of horses that Zenyatta has defeated in her career! As Andy Beyer said; 'It is almost beyond compare for a female in the history of the sport'. Granted- he also said that Zenyatta would lose the BCC, but afterwards he changed his tune.

Music Note- 5 Grade 1 wins- was almost the Champion 3 year old filly- just barely missed. Won over $1,600,000 and creamed Indian Blessing in the Ballerina

Ginger Punch- Twice defeated by Zenyatta- do I have to detail her career? Over $3,000,000 in earnings. Won 6 Grade 1 races!!!

Hystericalady- Twice defeated by Zenyatta- same as above- we all know who she is. $2,400,000 in earnings. Won 8 graded stakes races.

Life Is Sweet- Multiple Grade 1 & 2 winner- almost $2,000,000 in earnings. Was retired last month after being injured here at Hollywood.

Sealy Hill- Only horse to win the Canadian Triple Tiara- was Canadian Horse of the Year, Female Turf Champion and earnings of $1,800,000.

Coca Beach- $1,800,000 in earnings- won highly graded races on three continents- won multiple Grade 1 races, as well as two of the top races in the UAE- the Oaks and the Thousand Guineas. Won 2008 Horse of the Year in Chile and filly of the year in the UAE.

Carriage Trail- Multiple stakes placed- over $800,000 in earnings.

Gio Ponti- won 4 grade 1 races in a row- Champion Older horse- ran an incredible BCC even in defeat- over $3,700,000 in earnings- a great horse and true champion.

Einstein- Has earned $3,000,000!!!!!!!!!

Santa Teresita- Multiple graded stakes wins and places- $500k in earnings.

I could go on and on and on with this. The greatest moment of 2009 was Zen winning the BCC. It was one of the best fields in the history of the race. Her Performance stood out miles above anything that RA did- this isn't speculation- it is a fact.

RA will never beat Zen. The excuses were flying when she lost to Zardana- they couldn't just say 'We fought hard and lost'. Had Zardana not been in the race, the headlines would have read; 'Champion RA returns to destory rivals'.

That is a very impressive post. It certainly puts things in perspective.

[gm10]

When someone uses a phrase announcing a horse is "a million times better" than anything, it's pretty much a sign of ignorance..and immaturity. If I remember correctly, Curlin was trounced in the Derby, won the Preakness by the slimmest of margins, lost the Belmont to the filly and then lost again decisively in the Haskell before he went on to the JCGC through DWC high point of a career that otherwise is indistinguishable from those of a host of G1/G2 runners. And in his entire career he topped a 114 BSF only once, not to mention that the Racing Post assessment of his DWC field was that it was among the very weakest in the race's history. Apparently your standard of greatness is quite limited. Some of us like to see horses that actually do run very fast. Neither he nor Zenyatta fill that bill regardless of the names of the races they won...or how many. There is a point where physiology prevails, which is why Dr. Fager towers over Cigar, for example.

Curlin is another one of those horses whose greatness cannot be represented by one simple number. It is complete arrogance to suggest that one number can define the horse. Sinister Minister ran a 116 BSF in the Blue Grass stakes 2006 and never won a race afterwards (including some soft optional claimers). I think that says it all.

[FenceBored]

That is a very impressive post. It certainly puts things in perspective.

I'm intrigued by how some people see a flaw riddled post as "very impressive" merely because it agrees with their prejudices. Human nature I suppose.

[joanied]

you guys were stunned this 'steward' dude started another thread, at Derby time, no less, about Rachel & Zenyatta...

and you all got sucked into it, going over the same stuff...aaarrgghhh:bang:

Oaks today:

Blind Luck
Crisp
Amen H
Tidal Pool
Evening Jewel

La Trionne;
Rachel
Zardana
and the rest:)

[PaceAdvantage]

I wouldn't. A few sure, but others "best days" were in the couple races right before the Woodward and the Woodward itself.That's what I've been pointing out, yet people insist on going over the "what have you done for me lately," as if any horse who finished behind Zenyatta is lighting the world on fire at the moment.

[Buckeye]

It's real simple, next time Zenyatta becomes Horse of the Year will be the first time. So far in 2010 she remains undefeated but has a bit of work ahead. It's up to you Big Girl. Possibly standing in your way, last year's HOY Rachel Alexandra. In any case good luck.