how do we fix the derby qualification system

[Jasonm921]

I propose returning the blue grass/wood/Santa Anita Derby back to 3 weeks before the Derby. Have legitimate preps ie. Gotham 3 weeks prior to that. Make the Grade 1 stakes worth 6 points, grade 2's worth 3 pts and grade 3's worth 1 pt. Also give the second and third place finishers some points for the grade 1's and second in a grade 2 should get a point as well. It's better than the current system I think.

[Robert Fischer]

in some ways the system is working well. Having competition for slots 15-20 extending 10 deep says a lot about the value of the race to owners.
A "bad" sign would be if a Derby only had 14 interested owners, not 25 whiny ones.

[OTM Al]

Please list the worthy horses that have been denied in the last 10 years. While I wouldn't mind seeing a small tweak, overall I think it works fine.

[Jasonm921]

The argument isn't who has been excluded but has needed lots of luck to get in because the graded race system is playing second fiddle to cold hard cash. How is running second in a grade 1 race less important than winning a million dollar grade three. The grade 3 runners should be sweating it out not a horse that has finished second (twice in a row) to the would be heavy favorite. The fact that Jackson Bend was more likely to be competing in the Dwyer than the Derby only 6 days prior to the race speaks volumes for the current system. We grade races for a reason, let's honor that system.

[OTM Al]

The argument isn't who has been excluded but has needed lots of luck to get in because the graded race system is playing second fiddle to cold hard cash. How is running second in a grade 1 race less important than winning a million dollar grade three. The grade 3 runners should be sweating it out not a horse that has finished second (twice in a row) to the would be heavy favorite. The fact that Jackson Bend was more likely to be competing in the Dwyer than the Derby only 6 days prior to the race speaks volumes for the current system. We grade races for a reason, let's honor that system.

If the only result of points accumulation is in or out, then the grade of the race the points were accumulated in were meaningless. The argument you have made supports that fact.

[Jasonm921]

This is a no brainer. We grade races to value their importance. You still haven't answered how winning a million dollar grade three race supercedes a second in a grade 1. Some people believed eskendereya was the second coming but the horse that came second to him twice in a row almost didn't make the cut.....that's a problem. I'm just waiting for the day in which the sheiks throw a bunch of money at one of these second tier tracks with a grade 3 race to boost the purse so they could enter four horses just to buy their way into the derby. They did it in Dubai it will be done here.

[Robert Fischer]

This is a no brainer. We grade races to value their importance. You still haven't answered how winning a million dollar grade three race supercedes a second in a grade 1. Some people believed eskendereya was the second coming but the horse that came second to him twice in a row almost didn't make the cut.....that's a problem. I'm just waiting for the day in which the sheiks throw a bunch of money at one of these second tier tracks with a grade 3 race to boost the purse so they could enter four horses just to buy their way into the derby. They did it in Dubai it will be done here.

the trainers and owners are well aware of which stakes races count towards the derby, and when they are held and for what purse amount.

You act as if the qualification system is a secret and that trainers and owners are "surprised" when their runners from various lower pursed/higher graded races are out-ranked by horses who ran for the money... :eek:

If the Sheiks want to throw 2yo-3yo purse money around, that is supposed to be a sinister act??
Guess what, the purse money has to be added well in advance! Every properly registered and eligable horse may include that Stakes Race into his itinerary. Added purse money would be a good thing, not bad.

[OTM Al]

Jackson Bend lost a grade 1 race, finishing 2nd, by 10 lengths. Endorsement won a grade 3 race. Which one was better? Which one was more deserving? Not always going to be the same answer is it?

[Phantombridgejumpe]

made Grade I races have a significantly higher minimum purse. If a race doesn't have a purse of say $400,000 maybe it shouldn't be a grade 1. I don't know if there is a minimum purse now, but if so it isn't high enough.

That being said a point system is too complicated for the average (or below average) racing fan. At least the cash system can be explained to someone in 10 words or less - any new system should be as easy to explain.

I'd go for...18 spots for the most earnings, 2 wild-card selections.

[Robert Fischer]

i'd rather see the apparent 3-pronged performance enhancing medication (steroid/growthhormone/staminabuilder) taken out of the game.

some of these trainers seem to be able to get any "important" horse of theirs to pack on explosive strength, and they found it's easiest to just put them on or near the lead, because they aren't getting tired! You see some of these guys do it with several horses like there isn't any worry of being caught or having to pick spots...
As a result we may see some trainers /owners/breeders... have multiple derby entrants.

[Jasonm921]

This is why racing is failing...well one of many reasons. Did I read a statement that a point system is too complicated? Are you aware that nascar has a point system and has an extremely large and ever growing fan base? If you don't respect grading of stake races then just abolish the grades and judge everything based on purses. This sport is worse off than the average fan realizes when dedicated fans are stating that a grade III is a more meaningful race than the wood memorial. Better yet grade III turf races (if the purse is right) could be more important than the florida derby. Amazing!

[Phantombridgejumpe]

attendence is down this year as are TV ratings.

The NASCAR points system is terrible. If you want to copy that every race is worth the EXACT SAME. The Daytona 500 is worth the exact same in points as the Hooters 250 (or whatever the other races are called).

If the Wood Memorial or Florida Derby are such important preps why can't they raise the purses of those events to more than the Sunland Derby. Should we punish Sunland for putting the money out there. How are they supposed to attract the horses that will someday get their prep race a higher grade and a better field.

Maybe in 10 years the Sunland Derby will be a more important prep than the Wood Memorial - - why is that a bad thing?

Just because college football has the BCS doesn't make that the right solution, just because NASCAR uses points doesn't make that the right answer - those events are popular because the product is exciting to the masses and currently horse racing is not.

Do I think the current system is perfect, no I do not. Do I think you have found something better, no I do not.

[OTM Al]

The minimum purse for a Gr1 is $250,000, $150,000 for a gr 2 and $100,000 for a gr 3. Every year, gradings are reevaluated. The better the level the horse that runs in them based on later accomplishments, the better the grade becomes. Not so many years ago, the Southwest and Rebel were ungraded. Smarty Jones had to do well in the Ark Derby, or he wasn't getting in the Derby. Now they are a gr3 and gr 2 resp. So if Sunland and Delta can continue to upgrade the level of horse they attract and the grades go up, good for them.

I agree that the NASCAR point system seems silly. Not enough difference between the first and 10th place finisher, but then there is a method to the madness as it keeps more teams in the running which means more sponsorship $s and if NASCAR is about anything it's about sponsors. They come right after God in the list of who is thanked.

[46zilzal]

BOTH q-horses and the trotters have it correct: Make them qualify to get into the big bucks contests.

For the All-American Futurity all the prospective entrants run against one another on a single day with the top 10 - 12 going in the final.

We have qualifying races for the standard breds all the time: the top three in each qualifying race goes on to the next round.....until the final so you get very talented fields.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

all others.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Eliminate the TC nominations until the horse has rub at least 1 non-maiden race. Ledt's open up the possible entries more!
How many females are usually nominated?

[Hanover1]

i'd rather see the apparent 3-pronged performance enhancing medication (steroid/growthhormone/staminabuilder) taken out of the game.

some of these trainers seem to be able to get any "important" horse of theirs to pack on explosive strength, and they found it's easiest to just put them on or near the lead, because they aren't getting tired! You see some of these guys do it with several horses like there isn't any worry of being caught or having to pick spots...
As a result we may see some trainers /owners/breeders... have multiple derby entrants.
Already a reality...........

[slewis]

Coming from someone who's associated with a horse that just missed.....

The system works relatively well except it absolutely needs tweaking.

Here is what I propose......

I'll give a horse full value of what they earn in a Graded race run on poly or turf..but since the derby is run and will (in our lifetime) always be run on dirt...a horse must ALSO earn ON A DIRT SURFACE IN GRADED COMPETITION, a value equal to at least 25% of the DIRT earnings of horse number 21 on the graded earnings list.

So if a poly or turf horse has $200k in Graded earnings and NO DIRT GRADED EARNINGS...and the number 21 horse (who's raced only on dirt) has $100k in graded earnings....The poly or turf horse MUST earn $25k in a Graded dirt race in order to get FULL value of the Turf or Poly graded races.

If the horse cannot earn $$ in Graded races on the dirt...I would halve the Graded amount earned on the silly surfaces for qualification purposes.

I would also only count two year old races run at a mile or greater.

[Robert Fischer]

Already a reality...........

what makes you think that ?

[Trotman]

First I think there are too many prep races for a Historical
Class race like the Derby, therefore I believe just because you keep your ellgibility up from the time you're foaled through your 2yr old season making the payments is a farce. From day one the payments must be made and 3 2yr old races are selected that the hopefull horses must run in to garner the earnings required to be ellgible as a 3yr old. Then for the 3yr old season there is 6 prep races that earnings must come from to get in. The selection of the tracks that get the 2 and 3 yr old races is battled out between the tracks to see who gets them that way there's no complaining about dirt or poly, if you put up the important cash they will come including the fans. The only way a 2 yr old could qualify that did not earn in the 2yr old prep races would be to win a 2yr old BC and then have to earn in the 3yr old preps.

[pktruckdriver]

My 2 sense is leave it alone , it has held up thru the years, thou this year has been kinda wacky, that happens once in awhile.

Any horse not getting in ,only has to look at the connections for blame, period.

Is not everyone aware of what is needed to get in the Derby, yes they are, it is there responsiblilitiy to make the horse eligible, if he can win the earnings that is, if not then he doesn't belong.

my opinion

patrick

[JohnGalt1]

If the NBA were in charge--

The horse with the most earnings would get the most ping png balls.

The horse with the 100th most earnings would get the fewest.

The drawing would be fair :D and held behind locked doors. The drawing would be for 20 horses.

Thankfully we have our system, however flawed.