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View Full Version : Sunland handle up 5% year over year


Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 06:18 PM
Another dirt track outperforms,

this is not rocket science.


Deny, deny, deny-obvious to the blind man-have dirt succeed,
don't and don't.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 06:22 PM
I guess they didn't show the Winter Olympics in New Mexico,


while 20,000+ showed up for Hollywoods opener in 2000,
how many came this year?


But lets move the BC to the world's most apathetic sport's town anyway- permanently-
Avioli and his 500dime a year salary neeeds to go.

therussmeister
04-23-2010, 07:23 PM
Five or six more years of 5% increases and their handle will almost be big enough to draw some serious players.

DeanT
04-23-2010, 07:32 PM
Another dirt track outperforms,

this is not rocket science.

Deny, deny, deny-obvious to the blind man-have dirt succeed,
don't and don't.

Resume synthetic/dirt track arguments, but misinformation is not friendly.

An article published this week in one of the industry’s leading publications concluded that tracks with engineered surfaces have experienced an increase in handle—a significant finding in the face of dramatic declines in overall handle throughout the United States last year.



Even though U.S. racing experienced a 9.9 percent decline in handle in 2009, “North American tracks that have switched from dirt tracks to synthetic surfaces reveals these tracks have increased handle 1.28 percent since making the change,” according to an article in the Feb. 20 edition of the Thoroughbred Times by Frank Angst.



The one-page article – titled “Cushion to Recession’s Blow: Tracks with Synthetic Surfaces have Out Performed Others during Tough Times -- includes statistics for both average daily handle and total from each of the engineered tracks, including Keeneland which has experienced a 4.03 percent increase for its fall meets and a 3.57 percent increase for the spring meets in total handle change since making the switch to a engineered surface in 2006.

InsideThePylons-MW
04-23-2010, 07:40 PM
Resume synthetic/dirt track arguments, but misinformation is not friendly.

Because all the plastic tracks except for PID I think are non-slot welfare tracks.

Slot tracks intentionally sabotaging dirt racing handle is more effective than polycrap tracks which depend on racing decreasing handle.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 07:53 PM
North American tracks that have switched from dirt tracks to synthetic surfaces reveals these tracks have increased handle 1.28 percent since making the change,”



This is 100% false.

Are you that dense to not question this despite numerous years of double digit declines in KY and CA?



Beyond now that the idiots are actually inventing shit to support this abortion like situation.

DeanT
04-23-2010, 07:53 PM
Because all the plastic tracks except for PID I think are non-slot welfare tracks.

Slot tracks intentionally sabotaging dirt racing handle is more effective than polycrap tracks which depend on racing decreasing handle.

That would be true if the numbers did not say otherwise. Arlington handle off 7.4% last year, Hawthorne off 8.5%. KEE handle changes have mirrored Churchill. Both sets of tracks are non-slots and are in the same jurisdiction.

Field size determines handle changes, not the type of surface.

Misinformation has killed this sport for 100 years; I think it's time we started to change that.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 07:54 PM
Like what you cited as gospel from Frank Angst of all people?


Sunland vs SA what happened?

OP vs KEE what happened?


and no CD's decline has not mirrored KEE.


Try paying attention-you post shit as gospel that is obviously false.




Deny, deny, deny it is a pathetic joke.



What tracks are doing well in North America? They all have dirt except for WOX.

DeanT
04-23-2010, 08:02 PM
2009 Handle at Churchill was down 15%:

By track, total handle (and percent of decline when compared with 2008) fell $117 million (-15%) at Churchill Downs, was down $58.2 million (-7%) at Arlington, and declined by $66.2 million (-13%) at Fair Grounds.

I could say that Arlington being down 7% compared to dirt tracks like FG and CD down much more would mean that people love playing Synthetic, but that would be wrong and disingenous. Frank Angst has looked at them all, so he would know better. He is on the board here, so if you have trouble with his numbers, I am sure you can PM him.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 08:09 PM
FRom peak to trough Dean.

How about 2007 and 2008 KEE vs CD.

I don't have to look because I know what happened while HANA was naming KEE the number one track in the world, the exodus was quite memorable.



AP vs HAW how about less days at HAW and more at AP,
does that count?


How about just an iota of common sense?
Not one place in the USA with synthetic track is doing well?
Can't possibly get any more obvious than that.

DeanT
04-23-2010, 08:19 PM
AP vs HAW how about less days at HAW and more at AP,
does that count?


No, % handle is not calculated like that.

Anyhow, nice talking to you.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 08:32 PM
There is no talking - saying the earth is flat and hiding behind moderating opinion as an excuse.


I am here to help.
At KEE handle went from 9.3 to 7.6


while HANA were naming it the best track in the country.


How does that jive exactly while other tracks like OP have not declined at all?

Does that count as misinformation?



So lets see KEE handle off 20% plus, how is TP doing off 30%-more?
What is Cali handle off 30%? WOX only off 17% thus far.

and yet that not stopping you from copy pasting his crappolla.

How much did they pay FRank to invent shit?

http://www.keeneland.com/Lists/News/dispform.aspx?ID=6294

InsideThePylons-MW
04-23-2010, 08:46 PM
That would be true if the numbers did not say otherwise.

Dean,

As FP said....let's use some common sense here.

Do you have a set of numbers other than the Angst #'s. If not, I can firsthand tell you Angst is a liar and will write whatever he's told even if he is presented facts that are 100% opposite of what he wrote.

All 4 CA tracks are destroyed handlewise since plastic installation.

Turfway is down.

Let's say KEE and AP are about the same but I don't know.

Does all of PID's handle count as handle gain plastic tracks or does it not count at all?

Now how can plastic tracks be up when the VAST majority of it's handle is destroyed?

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 08:47 PM
including Keeneland which has experienced a 4.03 percent increase for its fall meets and a 3.57 percent increase for the spring meets in total handle change since making the switch to a engineered surface in 2006.


http://www.keeneland.com/Media%20Guide/Mutuel%20Handle-40%20yrs.pdf

spring 2006 which was the last pre poly KEE meet avg handle was 9.5mill
spring 2009 $8mill avg handle


fall 2005=$7.3mill

fall 2009= $7.2million




Sure Frank-talk about misinformation-where are these gains?


IT is a pathetic joke, one guy lies and the other guy pretends.

InsideThePylons-MW
04-23-2010, 09:18 PM
Dean,

As FP said....let's use some common sense here.

Do you have a set of numbers other than the Angst #'s. If not, I can firsthand tell you Angst is a liar and will write whatever he's told even if he is presented facts that are 100% opposite of what he wrote.

All 4 CA tracks are destroyed handlewise since plastic installation.

Turfway is down.

Let's say KEE and AP are about the same but I don't know.

Does all of PID's handle count as handle gain plastic tracks or does it not count at all?

Now how can plastic tracks be up when the VAST majority of it's handle is destroyed?

OK.....Now let's go with the premise that all 4 CA tracks are down and Kee is down.

How can plastic tracks be up per Mr. Angst?

DeanT
04-23-2010, 09:20 PM
Dean,

As FP said....let's use some common sense here.

Do you have a set of numbers other than the Angst #'s.

You know me better than that. I have done my due diligence on this issue.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 09:21 PM
there is reason why compare any track to the industry avg at the time and not try compare apples to oranges.


Think you have two exact synthetic meets that outperformed the industry at the time-one at DMR and one at AP-using avg daily handle which is the only relevant number when dealing with differing amount of dates.


that is all-
TWO-I have only been pointing this out and posting it on our forums for 4yrs. I don't follow AP so if they had another one or two, good for them-
NONE OF THE OTHERS DID.


Guy isn't even merely saying they outperformed dirt he actually telling you the fake surfaces are recession proof,

which makes his article impossible it is the same as saying the earth is flat.

now tell me of the dangers of misinformation again?

InsideThePylons-MW
04-23-2010, 09:47 PM
You know me better than that. I have done my due diligence on this issue.

Did you take into account the millions of extra handle that has mysteriously been added to the totals in CA under the non co-mingled estimated foreign handle label that has been on steroids since plastic was put in......or did you use equibase numbers?

I trust you but I don't trust Angst or them.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 10:16 PM
by Frank Angst

Citing the surface problems that forced cancellations at Santa Anita Park, the National Thoroughbred Racing Association and Equibase Company reported a 3.1% drop in first-quarter handle compared with the first three months of 2007.





Keeneland down 11% in the spring of 2008 or almost four times the national avg at the time.

SA down 12 percent avg daily handle in the spring of 2008 or four times the national avg.






Get it?-every single synthetic meet with the exception of 2 or 3 in 5yrs have underperformed some grossly like the two above.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 10:36 PM
How about the spring of 2009?

Gulfstream All-Sources Handle Up 3.6%
Oaklawn Park in Hot Springs, Ark., bucked widespread national trends in racing by registering a 4.6 percent increase in average daily handle

Sunland Park's average daily handle for its 77-date mixed meet for Thoroughbreds and Quarter Horses that closed Tuesday was off less than 1 percent from the corresponding meet a year ago. The track handled an average $807,566 a day on its races from all-sources this meet, compared with $813,083 over 77 dates in 2007-2008

KEE off 15%

SA all-sources handle fell 12 percent-citing the economy.





Every one but two or three meets. Compare apples to apples,

the earth is not flat and it is not close, these tracks are posting gains while the synths are posting neverending losses.

Robert Goren
04-23-2010, 10:40 PM
For the record Oaklawn is propped up by revenue from other forms of gambling. These "slot" tracks would not even be running if weren't for the slots. That the reason the states allow them to have them. We all know that they are living on borrowed time and they will close eventually. JMO

DeanT
04-23-2010, 10:42 PM
Did you take into account the millions of extra handle that has mysteriously been added to the totals in CA under the non co-mingled estimated foreign handle label that has been on steroids since plastic was put in......or did you use equibase numbers?

I trust you but I don't trust Angst or them.

You have to take into account the handle growth during the first few seasons of synthetic on tracks where synth increased field size. And of course, the massive drops in some dirt tracks.

APX has stayed flat since 05 (up a bit from 4.1 to 4.2M/day)
KEE has fell since 05, but by about 4% ...... 06 and 07 were all wagering records there.... by a ton, with poly.
WOX is down less than 10%.
SAX had a record year in 06, now down for more reasons than one.
DMR is down but not a ton, they had great years for the 1st two poly years.

Now, BEL lost about $140M in handle last year. GPX dropped from 9.3M per day to 8.0M per day since 05. There are obviously a ton more examples.

Overall since 2006, handle is down in North America by 22.1%

So, have poly track handles grown (as of this year)? No, absolutely not.

Have they fallen near what racing has overall? No, absolutely not.

Frank Angst's 2009 numbers are correct.

Poly gained some field size early and grew, now they have lost field size and have fallen. Keeneland will be off this meet, no doubt about it, but they will be off because they have less horses per race than they used to, just like CD will this year.

To paraphrase: It's not the make up of the track it is too high a takeout and too many short fields.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 10:48 PM
Your methodology is fukked beyond belief.
KEE has fell since 05, but by about 4% ...... 06 and 07 were all wagering records there.... by a ton, with poly

IT is 15% and says so on their own website.


Going to compare results at PENN to AP-like that matters even a teeny bit.


intead of comparing tracks that are obviously competing against each other.



fanatical-I already posted material from KEE own site that says handle off 15% since synths arrived and Frank Angst is saying handle is higher.

earth is flat.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 10:55 PM
BTW keep ignoring me, not going to stop me from pointing out that HANA is nothing more than a KEE/POLYTRACK shill at this point.



Tell us while PENN, PHA, CT and MNR basically abandon racing for slots that has relevance here.

plunging handle at the above despite bigger fields like the KEE spring meets of '08 and '09 pretty much crap on field size taking precedence over surface.


That certainly means more in HANA relevance than GP, OP, TAM and SUN increasing their business at SA and KEE direct expense.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 11:08 PM
Haw handle up 4% while SA off double digits who is running bigger fields here?

I guess every other track besides KEE doesn't count-

right they had a great first meets when delusionals thought they were beating it, signal wars blocking numerous other jurisdictions-

and now that is the lynchpin of yours and his entire argument-

and it is ludicrous beyond comprehension.


TP, GG, SA, HOL, WOX and KEE beyond the first two meets have basically seen nothing but a free falling of their handle. They lose to the competitors running at the same time and it obvious to anyone who isn't a KEE/POLYTRACK shill.

Horseplayersbet.com
04-23-2010, 11:09 PM
I'll chime in now. I could be wrong, but maybe I'm not.
Sunland is available at every ADW in the USA. They don't charge as much as the major tracks for their signal, which allows certain ADWs to attract price sensitive players/bigger bettors to play the track.
Their field size doesn't look like it shrunk this year either.

Field size was helped by the exodus from California and I believe the exodus isn't so much about polytrack, though it probably doesn't help, but more to do with cost to train horses in California versus purses available.

I believe there is a shift going on right now, even if it is slight, as bigger bettors who are price sensitive go from tracks that charge high for their product versus tracks that sell their signal for less (which means their net takeout is minimized), as long as that track has adequate field and pool size.

We'll see if this holds true as the year goes on.

In today's environment, it is just plain crazy to raise prices, or takeout, or limit signals, and of course limit what can be given to players in the form of bonuses.

Sunland played it smart, and bucked the trend.

lamboguy
04-23-2010, 11:10 PM
field size does influence track handles, and so does tracknet. tracknet has turned out to be the ruination of this game. they have decided to try to dominate the game, and they are failing. you will see that most tracks that are affiliated with traack net will lose handle. the smart ones that aren't might improve them. tracknet thinks that by raising rates for track signal's will be the answer, it does not work.

with penn national, sunland park, philadelphia park, deleware park all having pretty strong 2 yo programs you will find that tracknet eventually will not be able to compete with them. the above named tracks have spent lots of money improving their track surfaces. that will attract 2 yo's because trainers like to be able to train their horses on kind surfaces so they can get more out of their horses. from what i see, tracknet does nothing at all for horsemen, and on balance i believe they actually hurt management.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 11:12 PM
Field size is huge that is why Charlestown, Mountaineer, Philly and Penn see plunging handles despite big fields.


their plunging handle proves despite field size if you want put racing out of business in favor of slots you can.


and HAW is up 4% while SA is down 11%.

because of field size.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 11:26 PM
06 and 07 were all wagering records there.... by a ton, with poly.




Spring 2006 KEE meet was conducted on dirt.


there was a 20% increase in handle year over year ON DIRT.



there was no corresponding 20% increase in the Fall of 2006 the first on polytrack it was half that-


keep on trying to credit poly with that large increase in busines when it was all economic bubble.


or did the people just start betting it early in anticipation of poly?


maybe you and Frank should fix your records?

DeanT
04-23-2010, 11:27 PM
field size does influence track handles, and so does tracknet.

Dont get me going on Tracknet :)

I have been studying field size the best I can. It is almost a smooth curve as far as I can tell.

KEE, the last year of dirt had a field size of 9.1 for their fall meet and 7.9 for their spring meet. After two years these field sizes were 10.2 and 9.4 respectively. What happened? Handle was up 12.3% and 11.04%. This almost exactly fits the 5% per horse angle.

GPX increased field size last year (for the first half of the meet) by over one full horse, handle was up 5.7% at that time.

It is almost like clockwork, even when weird things are going on in racing.

Foolish Pleasure
04-23-2010, 11:34 PM
Yes that 5% per horse thing works well at PHA where adding horses results in 5% less handle per horse added.


Worked great at KEE in 2008 and 2009,

they ran full fields and handle dropped double digits both years.




KEE spring 2006 meet was still on dirt and yet again your handle numbers don't line up to what KEE posted on their own site-

just making them up too? Like Frank.

DeanT
04-23-2010, 11:58 PM
Dude,

It was a typographical error. Your posts are concise, cogent and spelled perfectly, but some of us are not perfect and make typos.

Thanks for pointing it out.

Dean