Union rally in Illinois

[ArlJim78]

Well they bussed in thousands of public sector union folks to Springfield a few days ago, to demand a tax increase. chants of "RAISE MY TAXES, RAISE MY TAXES" resounded. Of course thats easy to say when those taxes come back to you in the form of higher wages and benefits.

here are some of the sights and sounds of this glorious event.

main chant:
What do we want?
More money.
What do we want?
We want more money.
When do we want it?
Now?
When do we want it?
Now?


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO-vZpSgc/S9AEj9fViMI/AAAAAAAAIRM/ABSWf3Wuf0I/s400/union+protest2.png

S.O.S = Save Our Salaries


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9Bx0L3n3uAo/S89ot85MgBI/AAAAAAAAHWM/itRCdWDJnyo/s400/illinoisprotest.jpg

of course being union workers they still observed all break times according to their contracts, even during a protest.

OdREEcx0-Qc

this woman nicely sums up the attitude of those on hand.

Look for the Union label, and you'll find parasites feeding off of taxpayers and livin large while doing little and bankrupting us all.



..

[hazzardm]

I cannot believe the gall of those highly overpaid teachers (insert sarcasm icon here). :bang:

[illinoisbred]

And we've entrusted these goons to teach our kids? Looks more like early releasees from the state's mental institutions.

[bigmack]

I cannot believe the gall of those highly overpaid teachers (insert sarcasm icon here). :bang:
To the minds of simpletons you just hit a home run.

Sweet! :ThmbUp:

[mostpost]

You apparently don't understand the difference between a teacher asking for more money in her pay check and her asking for more money for teachers. the latter is a request for funding for more teachers and better facilities. The demonstrators in Springfield are saying that they are willing to pay for what they need. What we need!!!!!
This is in contrast to the Tea Party guys, who don't want to pay for anything

[illinoisbred]

Funding for more teachers and better facilities....Really? What, so the average classroom size can be 10? No, what we need is to get rid of this union deadwood and find teachers that can inspire, encourage children to think,and are enthused about the subject they teach. I would send my child to a grass shack school if it had those teachers.

[Tom]

This is in contrast to the Tea Party guys, who don't want to pay for anything

What a crock of BS. WE are all willing to pay OUR OWN way - unlike union goons who are the laziest, most greedy, unproductive creatures to crawl on the face of the planet. If you can't teach a kid to add or spell without a lot of needless fluff, you ain't no teacher. Do they have a school builing? Is it heated? That is all they need. Start turning out kids who can read and write and pull their pants up.

What a crock of BS.

[ArlJim78]

yeah right, we don't spend enough on education. does anyone really believe that?

[bigmack]

Henry Bayer, who heads the largest union covering state employees, warned lawmakers "if you try to leave town without doing your job, we're going to chase you."

"These 177 people who have a job don't want to do their job," said Bayer, executive director of Council 31 of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. "Yes, people are hurting. That's why we need a tax increase." :lol:

Looks like them lawmakers better pony up some loot or else...

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/2007/12/16-22/marlon-brando_godfather-johnny-depp-tim-burton-i-knew-it-was-you.png

[Tom]

yeah right, we don't spend enough on education. does anyone really believe that?

After reading some of the posts here, that might be true. :rolleyes:

[illinoisbred]

Yeah. The more we spend-the poorer the results/outcome. Let's get rid of the teachers union and hire based on merit and ability-our schools would be a thing of beauty 5 years from now.

[hazzardm]

WE are all willing to pay OUR OWN way.

I can feel the brotherly love oozing :D

[mostpost]

What a crock of BS. WE are all willing to pay OUR OWN way - unlike union goons who are the laziest, most greedy, unproductive creatures to crawl on the face of the planet. If you can't teach a kid to add or spell without a lot of needless fluff, you ain't no teacher. Do they have a school builing? Is it heated? That is all they need. Start turning out kids who can read and write and pull their pants up.

What a crock of BS.
It's not just about you You're not a hermit on a desert island. You are part of a society. Until you move to that desert island, you need to pay like the rest of us.
It is not enough to teach a kid how to add and spell. This isn't the 1890's. You need to know math and science and computers. In ten years you will need to know things we haven't even thought of.

[JustRalph]

It's not just about you You're not a hermit on a desert island. You are part of a society. Until you move to that desert island, you need to pay like the rest of us.
It is not enough to teach a kid how to add and spell. This isn't the 1890's. You need to know math and science and computers. In ten years you will need to know things we haven't even thought of.

How come the ones coming out today don't know how to spell or do math?

I handed a kid a 5 dollar bill on a 4.47 check the other day and he closed the register before getting my change. He opened it back up on a no sale and told me straight out, " I don't know how much I am supposed to give you back"

I told him I gave him 5 on a 4.47 check......he stared at me. I had to tell him how much change I was owed......... I almost fell down.......

Read who is asking for more money
http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/index.php?news=3700

[JustRalph]

I cannot believe the gall of those highly overpaid teachers (insert sarcasm icon here). :bang:


Getting paid based on the product you produce is how our country works.

If this was applied to teachers, they would be paying parents.

[hazzardm]

Getting paid based on the product you produce is how our country works.

If this was applied to teachers, they would be paying parents.

I would say EVERYONE gets paid based on supply and demand. Want better teachers, pay enough to get better teachers.

[prospector]

why is it that kids who go to private schools are better educated than the public school kids?
its not the pay the nuns make...better education for a lot less bucks..plus the parents pay to send their children there..they get no help.
shut down the school unions and only merit pay raises, test teachers yearly...

[Show Me the Wire]

I would say EVERYONE gets paid based on supply and demand. Want better teachers, pay enough to get better teachers.


Supply of teachers is not an issue. Plenty of teachers. Quality teachers are attracted to better environments, not just money.

[hazzardm]

Supply of teachers is not an issue. Plenty of teachers. Quality teachers are attracted to better environments, not just money.

Agreed. There is more than just dollars to compensation.

[JustRalph]

I would say EVERYONE gets paid based on supply and demand. Want better teachers, pay enough to get better teachers.

You miss the entire point. There are several studies that show that teachers pay doesn't matter.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by mostpost
It's not just about you You're not a hermit on a desert island. You are part of a society. Until you move to that desert island, you need to pay like the rest of us.

It's not just about you You're not a hermit on a desert island. You are part of a society. Until you move to that desert island, you need to CONTRIBUTE like the rest of us.

That means, YOU pay your share, I pay mine. You and the rest of the libs want ME to pay my share and someone else's.

You libs are really free with other people's money.

[Tom]

I would say EVERYONE gets paid based on supply and demand. Want better teachers, pay enough to get better teachers.

They are overpaid now. Get rid of the stupid unions and hire people who are willing to actually work and have a goal of educating kids.

Not one more cent is needed here - and these blood suckers damn well know. They couldn't teach a fly to find crap.

[hazzardm]

They are overpaid now. Get rid of the stupid unions and hire people who are willing to actually work and have a goal of educating kids.

Not one more cent is needed here - and these blood suckers damn well know. They couldn't teach a fly to find crap.


LOL, What do you really think? Did you or your kids have a bad experience. ShowMeTheWire says envirinoment has a lot to do with it.

The teachers my daughters have had for the past 9 years have been outstanding.

[Tom]

School budgets are ridiculous.
There is no need for anything to be going on in school other than basic education. 80% of school budgets are 100%waste.

[hazzardm]

School budgets are ridiculous.
There is no need for anything to be going on in school other than basic education. 80% of school budgets are 100%waste.

I guess it's a matter of how much one values a good rounded education for their kids. Our public school offers foreign languages, athletics, music, theater, science fairs, spelling bees, and more. I GLADLY pay my property taxes for this type of environment.

I'm sure one can find a low cost day school that offers nothing besides readin, ritin, and rithmetic. Or perhaps home school.

[JustRalph]

Our public school offers foreign languages, athletics, music, theater, science fairs, spelling bees, and more.

All completely unnecessary and subsidized by your neighbors.

[hazzardm]

All completely unnecessary and subsidized by your neighbors.

Sounds like sour grapes, or someone without a need for the school system.

My city has VOTED to provide these things via fair and public elections. That is the citizens of my city choosing to do this. Many of the people who vote on this find it creates a very nice environment. Anyone of my neighbors is FREE to live in an area that does not offer these things.

But like I mentioned earlier about supply and demand, there is a great demand for families to move here and join this school district.

Do you feel these decisions should be made by government or non-citizens of this community? That sounds VERY SOCIALISTIC.

[boxcar]

I guess it's a matter of how much one values a good rounded education for their kids. Our public school offers foreign languages, athletics, music, theater, science fairs, spelling bees, and more. I GLADLY pay my property taxes for this type of environment.

I'm sure one can find a low cost day school that offers nothing besides readin, ritin, and rithmetic. Or perhaps home school.

Most home-schooled children I know would make most public-educated kids look like a bunch of stupid dolts. I kid you not. Lot to be said for home schooling...

Boxcar

[JustRalph]

Sounds like sour grapes, or someone without a need for the school system.

My city has VOTED to provide these things via fair and public elections. That is the citizens of my city choosing to do this. Many of the people who vote on this find it creates a very nice environment. Anyone of my neighbors is FREE to live in an area that does not offer these things.

But like I mentioned earlier about supply and demand, there is a great demand for families to move here and join this school district.

Do you feel these decisions should be made by government or non-citizens of this community? That sounds VERY SOCIALISTIC.

I suggest you ask the elderly in your area who paid for those schools before you, and now are paying 400% of what they paid in taxes to subsidize a "new and improved" version of schools. Their kids didn't get the perks that yours are, and those elderly persons are now paying through the nose in property taxes.

[newtothegame]

It's not just about you You're not a hermit on a desert island. You are part of a society. Until you move to that desert island, you need to pay like the rest of us.
It is not enough to teach a kid how to add and spell. This isn't the 1890's. You need to know math and science and computers. In ten years you will need to know things we haven't even thought of.

Mosty...can YOU please make up your mind!!!! In other threads, you say that the rich should pay more....now here, your implying that everyone should pay their share....which is it??? You libs are so confusing....(even to yourselves so that you can't keep your own thoughts straight from one topic to the next).

[mostpost]

Mosty...can YOU please make up your mind!!!! In other threads, you say that the rich should pay more....now here, your implying that everyone should pay their share....which is it??? You libs are so confusing....(even to yourselves so that you can't keep your own thoughts straight from one topic to the next).
Duh!!!!!! More is their share. You can believe it or not. If I was rich I would say that I should pay more also. Just as I did not mind paying more than the fella who was a greeter at WalMart when I worked for USPS.

[newtothegame]

Duh!!!!!! More is their share. You can believe it or not. If I was rich I would say that I should pay more also. Just as I did not mind paying more than the fella who was a greeter at WalMart when I worked for USPS.

Not dollars mosty...lets not try and confuse even further what you libs want. Percentages!!! So lets get this right again.....you think that the more you make the more PERCENTAGE wise you should pay?????
So for sake of arguement, an example might be...
if ya make 10,000 a year you pay 10%
20,000 15%
30,000 20%
40,000 30%

????? Is that what your telling me?

[mostpost]

Not dollars mosty...lets not try and confuse even further what you libs want. Percentages!!! So lets get this right again.....you think that the more you make the more PERCENTAGE wise you should pay?????
So for sake of arguement, an example might be...
if ya make 10,000 a year you pay 10%
20,000 15%
30,000 20%
40,000 30%

????? Is that what your telling me?
Percentages is exactly what I mean. This is called a progressive tax system. It benefits the most people. I base this on the amount of money a person has left to live on after he has paid his taxes.
taxable income / tax paid / %/ left over for own use
$25,000 / $3,331 / 13/ $21,669
$35,000 / $4,931 / 14.3/ $30069
$50,000 / $8,681 / 17.36/ $41319
$100,000 / $21,709 / 21.71/ $78279
$500,000 / $152,644 / 30.53/ $347356
$1,000,000/ $327,664/ 32.76/ $672,332

As you can see from the above figures a person making $1M per year has 31 times the spendable money as a person earning $25,000 per year. Now tell me that $21,669 is enough money for even a single person to live a reasonable life.
Let's take a middle class person ($50,000 per year) and compare him to a lower upper class person ($500,000 per year)
Here you see the richer person, even after taxes, has 8.4 times as much spendable income as the poorer person. This seems eminently fair to me.
Here is a link to the calculator I used to come up with these figures.
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm
On the other hand here are the figures for the top and bottom classes using the 15% so-called Fair Tax.
$25,000 pays $3750 with $21250 left over.
$1,000,000 pays $150,000 with $850,000 left over.
That is 40 times as much.

[boxcar]

Percentages is exactly what I mean. This is called a progressive tax system. It benefits the most people. I base this on the amount of money a person has left to live on after he has paid his taxes.
taxable income / tax paid / %/ left over for own use
$25,000 / $3,331 / 13/ $21,669
$35,000 / $4,931 / 14.3/ $30069
$50,000 / $8,681 / 17.36/ $41319
$100,000 / $21,709 / 21.71/ $78279
$500,000 / $152,644 / 30.53/ $347356
$1,000,000/ $327,664/ 32.76/ $672,332

As you can see from the above figures a person making $1M per year has 31 times the spendable money as a person earning $25,000 per year. Now tell me that $21,669 is enough money for even a single person to live a reasonable life.

So, tell us, Mosty, what things should that poorer person be doing to try to improve his lot in life -- besides robbing from the rich, of course?

Boxcar

[GaryG]

The progressive income tax is grossly unfair. The only equitable solution is a flat tax....everyone treated the same. No loopholes, just pay the percentage. I know what the chances of that ever happening are though, given the Robin Hood mentality of the govt. And no mosty, I do not feel priveleged to pay a larger share than the burger flippers.

[jballscalls]

The progressive income tax is grossly unfair. The only equitable solution is a flat tax....everyone treated the same. No loopholes, just pay the percentage. I know what the chances of that ever happening are though, given the Robin Hood mentality of the govt. And no mosty, I do not feel priveleged to pay a larger share than the burger flippers.

completely agree about the flat tax.

Do disagree with mosty's post above about people not being able to live on 20k a year. there are lots of people who can and do, they simply dont live above their means and get into debt.

[mostpost]

So, tell us, Mosty, what things should that poorer person be doing to try to improve his lot in life -- besides robbing from the rich, of course?
Boxcar
You mean besides taking back what the rich robbed from him by paying him substandard wages?

[Tom]

Amen, JB......what mostie fails to realize is that many people are not WORTH 20K a year in terms of their contributions.

One of them delivered me a torn up copy of Sim Weekly just today. :rolleyes:

[mostpost]

completely agree about the flat tax.

Do disagree with mosty's post above about people not being able to live on 20k a year. there are lots of people who can and do, they simply dont live above their means and get into debt.
Do you actually know some of these people, or do you just think you know what they are going through? If you do know them, would you be willing to change places with one of them? After all you say they are able to live on $20,000 a year.
And what does that even mean "They simply don't live above their means and don't get into debt." Statements like that come from people who have no contact with reality. That is something I would have expected from Boxcar.
Does "Don't live above their means" refer to someone with three kids and a wife who lives in a one bedroom apartment, or does it refer to someone who can't have health insurance for his family, or does it refer to someone who must choose between taking the baby to the doctor or providing 3 squares a day for the rest of his family.
And, when one of these people "gets into debt" it is more than likely because someone in the family has gotten ill or because of an unexpected and necesary repair bill.

[mostpost]

Amen, JB......what mostie fails to realize is that many people are not WORTH 20K a year in terms of their contributions.

One of them delivered me a torn up copy of Sim Weekly just today. :rolleyes:
What you fail to realize is that no one is worth one to ten million a year in terms of their contributions.
Would you send me the name of your letter carrier? I'd like to send him a token of my appreciation.

[GaryG]

What you fail to realize is that no one is worth one to ten million a year in terms of their contributions. Bullshit....a person is worth whatever someone else is willing to pay him, athletes included. Who are you to say how much a person can earn? You might as well replace that goofy mailman in your avatar with Karl Marx.

[jballscalls]

Do you actually know some of these people, or do you just think you know what they are going through? If you do know them, would you be willing to change places with one of them? After all you say they are able to live on $20,000 a year.
And what does that even mean "They simply don't live above their means and don't get into debt." Statements like that come from people who have no contact with reality. That is something I would have expected from Boxcar.
Does "Don't live above their means" refer to someone with three kids and a wife who lives in a one bedroom apartment, or does it refer to someone who can't have health insurance for his family, or does it refer to someone who must choose between taking the baby to the doctor or providing 3 squares a day for the rest of his family.
And, when one of these people "gets into debt" it is more than likely because someone in the family has gotten ill or because of an unexpected and necesary repair bill.

Please dont compare me to Boxcar, i dont want him to be insulted with that comparison.

Do i know them, yeah, one lives in the next bedroom over, the other lives up 9 stairs and take a left. my roomates work full time, they make $10 an hour and $11 an hour respectively, which equals out roughly to $20,800 and $22,400 give or take a few hundred.

Both have health insurance, both have savings accounts, one has a car, one uses the Max lines, both take a vacation every year to a socialist country (cuba last year) and both are always at concerts and live music events 2 or 3 nights a week. We dont have tv in the house, but do have internet.

how you might ask? they shop very smartly, buy cheaply priced clothing, cook almost exclusively as opposed to eat out.

I know personally between my share of the rent, car payment, insurance (both health and car) cell phone, bills,and and food and entertainment, my budget is right around the 20k mark, basically the same lifestyle as my roomies. So what happens to the extra money i make since my income is more than my budget?, i dont gamble it, dont drink, dont do drugs, just bank it baby!

you ask about a guy with a family in this last post, but the post above i referenced, you spoke about a 'single person' so i made a statement about a single person.

By the way, both my roomies are huge liberals and while we disagree on politics, they dont use gov't programs, use unemployment or any of the other things many on here complain about. One of my roomies even had $5 on Mine that Bird to win last year, and she gave half her winnings to a bird sanctuary LOL i almost puked when she did that!

[bigmack]

Amen, JB......what mostie fails to realize is that many people are not WORTH 20K a year in terms of their contributions.

One of them delivered me a torn up copy of Sim Weekly just today. :rolleyes:
T, drink in some of the local USPS salaries in your town. $52K for the custodian. $54K for a carrier. :eek:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/4_24_10_14_24_01.png
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/4_24_10_14_25_58.png
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/4_24_10_14_25_39.png

[Tom]

Originally Posted by mostpost
What you fail to realize is that no one is worth one to ten million a year in terms of their contributions.


Pure nonsense open your part. If you beleive that, you are not in touch with reality. What do suppose Lee Iococa was worth to Chrysler?

What do you think is the "MAXIMUM" salary anyone should be allowed to make?

[ArlJim78]

the main point is that it's time to stop insulating the public sector unions from the economics realities that we face in the private sector. the taxpayers paying their wages are hurting, have taken pay cuts, are out of work, and facing rising costs, and have to perform in order to keep your job. there is no such thing as automatic 4% increases every year or zero contributions for healthcare, or defined benefit pensions.

you're going to have to make do with less like the rest of us are already doing. get used to it.

[dav4463]

How come the ones coming out today don't know how to spell or do math?

I handed a kid a 5 dollar bill on a 4.47 check the other day and he closed the register before getting my change. He opened it back up on a no sale and told me straight out, " I don't know how much I am supposed to give you back"

I told him I gave him 5 on a 4.47 check......he stared at me. I had to tell him how much change I was owed......... I almost fell down.......

Read who is asking for more money
http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/index.php?news=3700


To be fair, if a kid just learned to work a register (especially in a new job) and he just shut the drawer and closed a transaction, it is easy to get flustered and forget simple things like that!

[boxcar]

To be fair, if a kid just learned to work a register (especially in a new job) and he just shut the drawer and closed a transaction, it is easy to get flustered and forget simple things like that!

No, what JR related is far too common. It's typical today! That's really scary.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

You mean besides taking back what the rich robbed from him by paying him substandard wages?

How did the rich rob them? With a gun? At knife point? How did those poor people allow themselves to be robbed? Did the employers do the same thing the government does, i.e. employ coercion practices with the prospective employees and force them to take the job? Explain yourself.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Do you actually know some of these people, or do you just think you know what they are going through? If you do know them, would you be willing to change places with one of them? After all you say they are able to live on $20,000 a year.
And what does that even mean "They simply don't live above their means and don't get into debt." Statements like that come from people who have no contact with reality. That is something I would have expected from Boxcar.
Does "Don't live above their means" refer to someone with three kids and a wife who lives in a one bedroom apartment, or does it refer to someone who can't have health insurance for his family, or does it refer to someone who must choose between taking the baby to the doctor or providing 3 squares a day for the rest of his family.
And, when one of these people "gets into debt" it is more than likely because someone in the family has gotten ill or because of an unexpected and necesary repair bill.


Here, here! I resemble that remark. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: How dare you take my name in vain. :D

The crux of the problem with all these "poor" people is that they are godless and refuse to rely upon the Lord to meet their needs. Instead, they advocate thievery through the U.S. government.

Also, because they're godless, they know not how to be content with what they have.

Moreover, because they're godless many easily succumb to the equally godless state's temptation for easy, unearned money, which in turn provides every disincentive for personal growth through productive achievements. Socialism discourages personal advancement.

Further, godless socialists seem to think that Justice requires equality in virtually all areas of society, which is why it's such a perverse ideology. Not all men have the same economic worth. Not all men offer the same value in the workplace. Not all men bring the same skill sets to the workforce. Inequality, therefore, is normal in this life, as it will also be in the next.

Boxcar

[JustRalph]

To be fair, if a kid just learned to work a register (especially in a new job) and he just shut the drawer and closed a transaction, it is easy to get flustered and forget simple things like that!


Fair enough, But my wife has a hundred plus, young people mostly, working for her.......my point is valid........take my word for it.

[Maverick58034]

In regard to the public school funding issue, I'm surprised no one has suggested eliminating public schools. If we were to eliminate public schools, then a market for low cost schooling would emerge. Schools could then compete for offering the lowest prices and the best educations (e.g. byproduct of capitalism). I have no doubt we would be in a better position than we are now, and paying less for it.

And in regard to taxes, why not eliminate income taxes, and place a (higher-than-current) flat sales tax on all goods and services? Of course, exempt certain goods and services from the tax: basic foods, heating and cooling, utilities, etc., so as to not overburden those with less means. If you want to avoid the tax, then save/invest your money - which helps fuel the economy. Seems like a win-win, and it doesn't forcibly punish the wealthy (they can avoid the punishment if they wish, of course many won't).

[JustRalph]

In regard to the public school funding issue, I'm surprised no one has suggested eliminating public schools. If we were to eliminate public schools, then a market for low cost schooling would emerge. Schools could then compete for offering the lowest prices and the best educations (e.g. byproduct of capitalism). I have no doubt we would be in a better position than we are now, and paying less for it.



it has been brought up here before......... most people don't realize that the Founding fathers debated public schools and it was a very contentious subject.

[newtothegame]

Ok Mosty...I give...your right. We should all help those less fortunate. In the example you provided...those who make more should pay more to help those less fortunate. But as a gesture of good faith....here's what you should do to show us all your on the up and up.
As a postal worker...I am sure you made at least 50'gs yearly. I would assume your still getting as much.
Now we have discussed those less fortunate (and we all know some) who make about 20G's a year.
I suggest that to show your good faith...you send one 15G's this year. That way you both will be making about 35G's....to give to the less fortunate ya know :).
Then, I am sure there will be more 20g a year workers who need help...and you will still be making 35g's a year...so youve got to help em out. After all...they are the less fortunate and you do make more then them (in their eyes your rich).
So you should send another 7.5G's to one of them...that way you both earn about 27.5G's a year...
But wait...thneres more people making less...so I am sure you are willing to dole out some more to help those less fortunate ..right???
before you know it...guess where you will be? Getting help from someone else...(the government). But wait...who will be funding all of this once you have that great class warfare utopia?? No one will be able to afford the taxes as we all will be at the poverty level as it will have to increase based on the lowest yearly take throughoout the country!! And who is gonna supply jobs??
Hell I wont be able to afford too as I will be making the same as you!!!
Guess you and I will be in the government cheese line together huh???
then we can all sit around a garbage can fire and sing in harmony lol.:bang: :bang: :bang:

[boxcar]

:lol: :lol: :lol: That's funny! :ThmbUp:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Now, Mosty, don't forget something else that is very important: Wealth is relative. A panhandler living out of a big cardboard box would probably think that 20Gs a year is a lot of money. Or take this gal in this video. I suspect that she probably makes less than 20Gs. You MUST do the right thing by her, too. If she's only pulling in 10K per year, it's only fair that you part with 5K more of your money. What you have left, would put you right on par with this model citizen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRgB2eeHZEw

Dig deep. Give often...even if it means going into debt because you took advantage of too many cash advances on your credit cards. When you go bust, you, too, can exercise your state-given credit card rights by applying for stimulus money that would pay down up to 60% of your debt.

Boxcar

[hazzardm]

Most home-schooled children I know would make most public-educated kids look like a bunch of stupid dolts. I kid you not. Lot to be said for home schooling...

Boxcar

No disagreement, but a bit to much generalization. Local kid from our public school recently had 100% on SAT test. He would make most anyone appear a stupid dolt.

[hazzardm]

I suggest you ask the elderly in your area who paid for those schools before you, and now are paying 400% of what they paid in taxes to subsidize a "new and improved" version of schools. Their kids didn't get the perks that yours are, and those elderly persons are now paying through the nose in property taxes.

Hogwash. Local property taxes are a choice. If you think they are too high, move somewhere else.

BTW, their property values have also increased approx 15 fold over my lifetime. 1965 $22,000 rambler recently sold for $295,000.

[jballscalls]

No disagreement, but a bit to much generalization. Local kid from our public school recently had 100% on SAT test. He would make most anyone appear a stupid dolt.

all the kids that i grew up with that were homeschooled still came and played sports at the local school. most were socially awkward and troubled because they didn't get the social benefits of being around other people their age. they lived in the protective shell of mommy and daddy.

but that is just the 5 or 6 that i knew. generalization is one of the biggest problems on this board, people make wide sweeping statements because they know maybe 5 or 10 or 20 people who fit a certain mold.

But we all form our opinions based on our own experiences, it's just not helpful when people made broad sweeping generalizations and stereotypes, especially when the person then proceeds to insult many hard working, intelligent children by calling them 'stupid dolts"

but whatever helps you sleep at night

[hazzardm]

it's just not helpful when people made broad sweeping generalizations and stereotypes, especially when the person then proceeds to insult many hard working, intelligent children by calling them 'stupid dolts"

but whatever helps you sleep at night

I was quoting boxcar earlier post.

[JustRalph]

Hogwash. Local property taxes are a choice. If you think they are too high, move somewhere else.

BTW, their property values have also increased approx 15 fold over my lifetime. 1965 $22,000 rambler recently sold for $295,000.

You are making my exact point for me. The elderly brought the community to the standard it is now and now they can't afford to live in it because of the excesses of the current "public school mentality" Your point about Property Values going up is also invalid. I have lived this. I knew many people who bought 12k houses in the fifties that were selling for 150k in the 90's. The suburb they helped develop took off after the white flight of the 80's and 90's. The schools were the primary draw. But even selling at 150k after buying for 12k, they could not replace what they had for that 150k. There was no place to go for that money. They had to downsize or move to a less desirable neighborhood because a tax levy was being passed every 6 months and they could no longer afford to live in their homes. A 1965 Rambler is not germane to the discussion, not everybody has one in their garage.

The current generation demands all the perks for their kids at the expense of those who supported and brought the community to the level and status that the current generation so desires. It is a catch 22 for the older citizens of the suburbs in the United States. That doesn't even take into consideration the shitty deal people without children get................ it's a bad system. In fact some States are moving away from it. South Carolina just off loaded all school funding to other sources because so many people were leaving S.Carolina for this exact reason.

[JustRalph]

From Wiki on Home Schooled kids

"Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[89] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[90]
New evidence has been found that homeschooled children are getting higher scores on the ACT and SAT tests. A study at Wheaton College in Illinois showed that the freshmen that were homeschooled for high school scored fifty-eight points higher on their SAT scores than those students who attended public or private schools. Most colleges look at the ACT and SAT scores of homeschooled children when considering them for acceptance to a college. On average, homeschooled children score eighty-one points higher than the national average on the SAT scores."

[boxcar]

No disagreement, but a bit to much generalization. Local kid from our public school recently had 100% on SAT test. He would make most anyone appear a stupid dolt.

And you're a wee bit too anecdotal. See JR's last post on this thread.

Boxcar
P.S. Did you attend public school? Reason I ask is because you don't seem to know when to use "to" and "too" in your sentences. A little bit of homeschooling might have done you a world of good. ;)

[JustRalph]

Boxcar
P.S. Did you attend public school? Reason I ask is because you don't seem to know when to use "to" and "too" in your sentences. A little bit of homeschooling might have done you a world of good. ;)

Ding!!!

From a Recent Teachers protest for more pay:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO-vZpSgc/S9EkKTW8rvI/AAAAAAAAIR0/uG7QzXEJ1b8/s400/save+are+teacher.png

[jballscalls]

I was quoting boxcar earlier post.

So was I :)

[GaryG]

I am glad that my grandkids are being homeschooled. They can work at their own pace and have all the resouces they need within the family. I am in charge of math and physical science. It is like "phone a friend" on that Regis quiz show.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Ding!!!

From a Recent Teachers protest for more pay:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO-vZpSgc/S9EkKTW8rvI/AAAAAAAAIR0/uG7QzXEJ1b8/s400/save+are+teacher.png

:lol: :lol:

Clearly her husband(/father?) made the sign while crafting one for the Tea Party rally he was attending earlier in the week.

[jballscalls]

From Wiki on Home Schooled kids

"Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[89] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[90]
New evidence has been found that homeschooled children are getting higher scores on the ACT and SAT tests. A study at Wheaton College in Illinois showed that the freshmen that were homeschooled for high school scored fifty-eight points higher on their SAT scores than those students who attended public or private schools. Most colleges look at the ACT and SAT scores of homeschooled children when considering them for acceptance to a college. On average, homeschooled children score eighty-one points higher than the national average on the SAT scores."

In the real world it always seems the people i've met who succeeded weren't the ones with the highest test scores or grades, they were the ones who could sell themselves and deal well with others. Social skills and development are very important, hard to get that when your not able to be with your friends most of the day.

and how do you home school your kids if you have to go out and work for a living? seems it would be easier to do for people who were a single income home rather than when both parents have to work.

maybe thats the answer, actually having both parents around!

[jballscalls]

I am glad that my grandkids are being homeschooled. They can work at their own pace and have all the resouces they need within the family. I am in charge of math and physical science. It is like "phone a friend" on that Regis quiz show.

my grandpa was a great math resource all growing up, invaluable to have someone to help you. My parents were lost on the math once i got past eighth grade :)

[hazzardm]

And you're a wee bit too anecdotal. See JR's last post on this thread.

Boxcar
P.S. Did you attend public school? Reason I ask is because you don't seem to know when to use "to" and "too" in your sentences. A little bit of homeschooling might have done you a world of good. ;)

Yes, same one my daughter attends. I am just a poor writer, unless it's spelled in c++ or java. :blush:

[mostpost]

From Wiki on Home Schooled kids

"Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[89] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[90]
New evidence has been found that homeschooled children are getting higher scores on the ACT and SAT tests. A study at Wheaton College in Illinois showed that the freshmen that were homeschooled for high school scored fifty-eight points higher on their SAT scores than those students who attended public or private schools. Most colleges look at the ACT and SAT scores of homeschooled children when considering them for acceptance to a college. On average, homeschooled children score eighty-one points higher than the national average on the SAT scores."
That's all fine. But let's take a public school and have two or three students for every teacher, because that is the ratio in most homes. And there is not the distraction of twenty classmates and having to go at the pace of the slowest student.
And let's be honest, some parents are not qualified to homeschool anyone.

Don't take this to mean I am against homeschooling. I am just pointing out that the higher scores could be the result of the concentrated attention the homeschooled student receives.
And, there is the social aspect of school. At a traditional school you learn lessons of group behavior, cooperation and problem solving you would not lean at a home school. You learn to work with others and respect their opinions. Hmmmmmm, :confused: were Tom and Boxcar homeschooled? :rolleyes:

[NJ Stinks]

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of homeschooling. First, I agree with Jballs. Secondly, we are the product of our environment. If the environment never changes, chances are the child is going turn out a lot like their parents. While that is not necessarily bad, I worry about the kid who rarely is exposed to another point of view.

I have a nephew whose wife homeschools the kids. She is very religious. She is also very intelligent. I guess we'll find out how things turn out down the line.

[mostpost]

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of homeschooling. First, I agree with Jballs. Secondly, we are the product of our environment. If the environment never changes, chances are the child is going turn out a lot like their parents. While that is not necessarily bad, I worry about the kid who rarely is exposed to another point of view.

I have a nephew whose wife homeschools the kids. She is very religious. She is also very intelligent. I guess we'll find out how things turn out down the line.
For several years, I have been active in the community theater in my town. Ten years ago we put on "Joseph and The Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat". You may know that part of the show is a children's chorus. One of the kids who came to tryout for the children's chorus was an 11 year old boy whom I will call "Alex." Despite being 11, Alex had a deep bass singing voice. There was no way he would fit into the children's choir.
Our director (who disliked turning anyone with a reasonable amount of talent away) decided that Alex could be a part of the adult chorus. I should mention that Alex was home schooled.
What happened was during downtime at rehearsals the kids would sit in a group; the adults would sit together; and Alex would sit by himself. Occassionally an adult would go over and talk to him but most of the time he was by himself.
When opening night came, I found Alex looking very scared and nervous and I asked him what was wrong. He said he was afraid he would forget when to go on stage and when to leave. Since we were in most scenes together I told him to stick with me and I would be his guide. That worked well for him and by the end of the seven show run he was quite confident and performed very well.
Alex was homeschooled through elementary school, then attended the local high school. He played on the football team and the last time I saw him he was the lead in the school musical and his bass had turned to a tenor.

[boxcar]

That's all fine. But let's take a public school and have two or three students for every teacher, because that is the ratio in most homes. And there is not the distraction of twenty classmates and having to go at the pace of the slowest student.
And let's be honest, some parents are not qualified to homeschool anyone.

Don't take this to mean I am against homeschooling. I am just pointing out that the higher scores could be the result of the concentrated attention the homeschooled student receives.
And, there is the social aspect of school. At a traditional school you learn lessons of group behavior, cooperation and problem solving you would not lean at a home school. You learn to work with others and respect their opinions. Hmmmmmm, :confused: were Tom and Boxcar homeschooled? :rolleyes:

Hold on, doc. The ratio of students to a teacher is an important consideration, but it's certainly not the end all and be all. You're forgetting about private schools! I went to parochial elementary and high schools and the class sizes were always between 30 to 40 kids and this factor did not adversely affect the education product. Not at all! In fact, Mosty, I'm testimony to that, even if I say so myself.

Apart from going into a lot of detail, I will say that I was quite the maverick in my youth -- even had a strong rebellious streak running down my back. But I was a straight A student from the 4th grade through the 10th. At the end of my second year high, I dropped out of school. Later that fall, instead of signing up for a new school in the state I moved to, I enlisted in the Air Force. The Air Force, even back then, required that every applicant have a H.S. diploma at minimum. But somehow, probably through my test scores, I manage to "dazzle" the enlisting officer and I was accepted with only my father's signature (for I was under 18) and my high scores. It wasn't only after about 6 or 7 months that my CO, at my home base, discovered that I was diplomaless. (I'll never forget the look on his face when he summoned me to his office. He was totally incredulous and completely stumped as to how I managed to get in without a diploma. It just wasn't done, apparently!)

To make a long story short, I was literally commanded to report immediately to the Education Office and register to get my GED. So, I did...eventually. (But that's another story. :) I scored so well on the GED, without any preparation of any kind, that they wanted to send me to college in exchange for an additional 4 or 6 years of service (I forget now what the offer was). But I declined. Eventually, I did attend college but after I left the service.

Why do I relate all this? As you correctly said, there is the important element of cooperation. And trust me: There was a ton of "cooperation" among my foster parents, my teachers and myself. This, sadly, is lacking today in very many homes. I was expected to WORK at school. And I was expected to perform my homeWORK diligently after school -- or else! I was expected to study. It was expected of me to know my material. And it was expected of me to get good grades -- not just passing grades, but high grades!

But in addition to all this, at the parochial schools I attended, I was actually taught how to critically think. How to analyze and solve problems. This very important element, too, is missing in too many public schools today. Today, teaching has been politicized. Kids in very many schools are actually being dumbed down! Teaching, today, is far too often about the pinhead teachers' rights and pensions and their unions! Thankfully, I lived in an era when teaching wasn't so politicized and I was able to attend private schools to receive a high quality education.

As I now look back at my childhood experience (particularly as it relates to my schooling), I can see how this "cooperative effort" cultivated and inculcated within me a strong work ethic. For many years later when I finally did attend college, my GPA was 4.0. At this point in my life, I was holding myself accountable for my work, my grades, my future.

Secondly, schooling a child is not about developing a child's social skills per se. You seem to forget that in the 18th, 19th and even 20th centuries, wealthy families would often have their kids tutored at home. Just because a child is schooled at home doesn't mean that he is locked up in some dark dungeon in the basement to become some social miscreant, or in some other way become socially-challenged. There is plenty of time for rounding out a child's education through development of his social skills after school. It doesn't have to be inside a classroom with other kids. Outside, with the kid's peers, is equally as good.

Boxcar

[hazzardm]

last time I saw him he was the lead in the school musical and his bass had turned to a tenor.

Kinda like this guy ......
http://video.ap.org/?f=MNPAU&pid=GyHM0Kt363BxR8_xF_sBYNUt7gT5lqxd&fg=rss

[Tom]

Hmmmmmm, images/UBGX/E19.gif were Tom and Boxcar homeschooled? :rolleyes:

Hellooooo, Newman.
pause

No, I was public schooled, but had enough sense to seek a real education later on and pay for it. Amazing what they left out or just plain got wrong in the Pub School. I left public school a liberal, but with an influx of real schooling I was able to overcome that.

[cj's dad]

If you live in a city with a high % of the population being on some sort of government subsidy, the public schools suck and continue on a downward trend. The only ones worth attending are the so-called "magnet schools" which require a sort of entrance exam and they are only from grade 6 through 12.

Thank God for private schools !!

[JustRalph]

Hogwash. Local property taxes are a choice. If you think they are too high, move somewhere else.

BTW, their property values have also increased approx 15 fold over my lifetime. 1965 $22,000 rambler recently sold for $295,000.

I suggest you check out the info on the NJ Millionaire's tax

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10975409

From the link:


Representative Paul Moriarty, a Democrat who sponsored the override bill, rejected claims that the initiative was just a political stunt to force Republicans to vote against senior citizens ahead of November elections.

"This isn't theater to seniors who call my office worried about how they will keep their homes and pay their taxes," Moriarty told the Assembly.

Republican minority leader Representative Alex DeCroce attacked the override plan. "This is typical of the majority party -- spending money they really don't have," DeCroce said.

The millionaires' tax would have raised $637 million for rebate checks of up to $1,295 for some 600,000 senior citizens who would otherwise face steep increases in their property taxes during fiscal 2011.

"Governor Christie's heartless vetoes denied property tax relief to senior citizens struggling to make ends meet," Assembly Majority Leader Joseph Cryan said in a statement."

They have taxed the Elderly right out of their homes and trying once again to force Millionaires to pay the freight..........this time it failed.

Real Estate taxes are no longer a choice for the older generation in New Jersey, as you proclaim............they are a path to foreclosure in a market where no-one can sell a house........This will be a catastrophe in New Jersey, all wrought by those who constantly approve of tax increases due to schools and other give away programs...........