Zenyatta may be leaning towards Vanity

[Dahoss9698]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/112294.html

John Shirreffs did not confirm Zenyatta for the Vanity, but he and owners Jerry and Ann Moss may be leaning that way.

"We'll see what the weights are for the Vanity and go from there," Shirreffs said. "This is a place we like to run - we have to play at home some of the time."

Before everyone overreacts, I understand they are merely looking at the Vanity as an option. But, the bolded line is hilarious. Play at home some of the time? Come on.

[slew101]

They are mapping a horse of the year campaign and that will include some soft spots. They can't ship her all year and expect to win them all. I'd be surprised if she ran against males at all until the BC Classic.

I do hope they bring her to Saratoga for the Personal Ensign and Rachel shows up as well.

[cj]

So much for being ambitious. So far three races, three cupcake fields.

[the little guy]

Thank God the TC is starting and we can finally get away from this soap opera for a couple of months.

[Hanover1]

They are mapping a horse of the year campaign and that will include some soft spots. They can't ship her all year and expect to win them all. I'd be surprised if she ran against males at all until the BC Classic.

I do hope they bring her to Saratoga for the Personal Ensign and Rachel shows up as well.
They are all soft spots for her........

[firstoffclaim]

Zenyatta is the #1 attraction in horseracing now, period.

[cj]

Zenyatta is the #1 attraction in horseracing now, period.

That will change, for at least two weeks, on May 1st.

[tzipi]

Racing is not what it used to be. That simple.

[Dahoss9698]

They are mapping a horse of the year campaign and that will include some soft spots. They can't ship her all year and expect to win them all. I'd be surprised if she ran against males at all until the BC Classic.



I understand wanting some soft spots, but isn't that what her first two races were? Wouldn't a start at Churchill make some sense? If they don't want to run against males in the Stephan Foster, there is the Fleur De Lis.

I guess I just laugh when I read a trainer, whose super horse has run exactly twice (at the same track) away from California, reference the need to play at home some time. Again, I know it's just an option right now. But if they intend on hiding out in California, what was the point of coming back?

[DeanT]

I would think he is speaking of this years schedule.

She went to the Apple Blossom, with a full expectation of meeting Rachel. Then she would come back home for a race, and back east from there. It looks to me they are managing her properly to race at CD in the Classic in the fall.

Touch wood.

JMO.

[chickenhead]

Stephen Foster > Gold Cup > Whitney > Woodward > JCGC > BC.

Go big or go home.

[DeanT]

I'm not buying a horse with Chick. I could not afford the vet bills :)

I'm not sure she could look any better than Curlin did in the BC with that sked Chick.

[boogazie]

With Quality Road running in a mile race, now is probably the best time to get in a "home" race before the good stuff.

[chickenhead]

ok..FINE. Gimme any 3 out of those 6 and I'll be happy.

[PhantomOnTour]

She will likely go in the Pacific Classic at Dmr before any major east coast race in the summer, unless Saratoga throws down some cash. A race at CD before the Breeders Cup does make sense though.

[eastie]

if she showed up at saratoga it would be a bigger day than Travers Day. It would be awesome ...:jump:

[letswastemoney]

If she's going to stay at home...

Why not the Californian (or is it called the Lava Man S.) and the HGC???

But to point at the Vanity when those 2 open races are available? They are afraid.

[Relwob Owner]

Zenyatta is the #1 attraction in horseracing now, period.


Not for me.....watching her continue to beat fillies is pretty boring......if I was a huge Zenyatta fan, I would be frustrated that they dont let her run against boys.....every time she runs against these soft fields, I feel like she tarnishes her legacy a bit. Like TLG says, thank goodness the Triple Crown is here so this soap opera can be shelved for a bit.

[Java Gold@TFT]

How long before we hear that the Vanity is no longer a handicap this year so that the racing secretary is forced to assign 133 pounds and lose Zenyatta?

[miesque]

Well the Vanity would be a bit of a disappointment although at least theoretically she could do Vanity and then Gold Cup since they are a month apart and there would not be any travel necessary and the Vanity would not be that tough of a race (even carrying 130+). I understand not wanting to ship out for every race, but the Stephen Foster would appear to be a good fit for Zenyatta and I was hoping for her next two races to be Stephen Foster/Hollywood Gold Cup. I have purposely not yet booked my regular Summer Hollywood Park trip to see if I could correlate it with a Zenyatta race if she did race at Hollywood. If she goes to the Foster I would fly to Louisville for that weekend and then to Hollywood most likely for Gold Cup weekend. The only good news is that the flights for me are 40% less to LAX for the weekend of the Vanity compared to the Gold Cup.

[Hedevar]

Racing is not what it used to be. That simple.

That is an understatement!

[Cratos]

Spectacular Bid was an east coast horse that went west and Affirmed was a west coast horse that came east.

The Zenyatta connections could easily move her east for the rest of her career (probably 4 races at most) and I am quite sure that an east coast racing secretary would be more than willing to accommodate her connections with stall space and all of the trimmings.

I am a big Zenyatta fan, but I am a bigger racing fan and if her connections is not willing to ship this fantastic mare around the country for her to exhibit her extraordinary racing ability at the top competitive level is both a disgrace and an insult to all racing fans.

[cj]

Well the Vanity would be a bit of a disappointment although at least theoretically she could do Vanity and then Gold Cup since they are a month apart and there would not be any travel necessary and the Vanity would not be that tough of a race (even carrying 130+). I understand not wanting to ship out for every race, but the Stephen Foster would appear to be a good fit for Zenyatta and I was hoping for her next two races to be Stephen Foster/Hollywood Gold Cup. I have purposely not yet booked my regular Summer Hollywood Park trip to see if I could correlate it with a Zenyatta race if she did race at Hollywood. If she goes to the Foster I would fly to Louisville for that weekend and then to Hollywood most likely for Gold Cup weekend. The only good news is that the flights for me are 40% less to LAX for the weekend of the Vanity compared to the Gold Cup.

Haven't we seen enough of her on synthetics? It is kind of a been there, done that. Lets see her face real horses on dirt.

I realize the ultimate goal is the BC Classic, but I've been around long enough to know that November is a long, long way away, especially for a 6 year old mare.

At this point in time, I can't figure out why Rachel or Zenyatta was brought back for another season. The connections are both being very lame.

[Robert Goren]

Right now, there is no reason for to leave California until the breeders cup. Now if some track wants to put up a ton of money and RA's connections agree to show up, then things might change. After that Oaklawn mess, if I were Moss, I would want some iron clad guarantees before I would come east. JMO

[OFFandRUNNING10]

I sure hope she goes to the Stephen Foster. I bought tickets right on the finish line for it last week. :bang:

I thought Moss said half the reason for bringing her back to race this year is to give a chance to others who haven't seen her run will get a chance. I think Hollywood has had enough opportunities...spread it around Moss CMONNN!!!!!!

[Dahoss9698]

At this point in time, I can't figure out why Rachel or Zenyatta was brought back for another season. The connections are both being very lame.

Totally agree. They are both totally consumed by the HOY stuff and both afraid to lose.

[Tom]

Zenyatta was ready to meet Rachael on dirt. How you can you call that afraid? SHE showed up.

[DeanT]

Ceej,

It's only April :)

I think it is very difficult for both the connections to make everyone happy.

Hollywood and Cali racing in general is not in great shape. I guarantee they are getting pulled by them to race there a few times this year. Simply because she pulls people to the track and she drives excitement and handle. When your good friends at your home track are asking you to enter for the good of racing it is not easy to turn down I bet.


Its the same for Jackson. He is getting pulled by places like OP, and even though his horse was not up to snuff for that tilt, you know there was pressure to do this for racing. Jackson had to do right by the horse. She was not ready and he did not want to cheapen her. Racing horses when they are not ready can ruin them. Ducking? Nonsense. She's a horse, not a stock car.

Both those horses and their owners have done some amazing things. Jackson by trying a TC race and other races against males, culminating with the Woodward. Zenyatta pointed all last year for the BC and entered the richest race in North America, and won. When there was a challenge on dirt against Rachel, which was supposed to happen at the Apple Blossom she showed up with bells on.

If they are both good and sound they will meet, maybe more than once. But both seem to want to race at CD in the fall, and because sore hocks and weight loss and vet work and more pile up over a season and are exacerbated by tough racing, they will not be in three times a month against the ghost of Spectacular Bid each and every time.

[Cardus]

Combining what Cratos and Goren posted: if Zenyatta were stabled east for a couple of races, Zenyatta's California fan base would be apoplectic.

Is it necessary for Zenyatta to come east only if Moss and Sheriffs know that Rachel Alexandra will run in a given race?

[Dahoss9698]

Zenyatta was ready to meet Rachael on dirt. How you can you call that afraid? SHE showed up.

They are already politicking to Hollywood Park about how much weight she might carry in the Vanity. God forbid she might have to give some weight to claimers.

Yes, she showed up to a race she was prepared for and Rachel (is it that hard to get her name right after all of this time?) was not. That was sporting of them. Not allowing Zardana to run was chickenshit and if they do decide to go back to California, in the Vanity of all races, I think it's pretty clear they are more interested in protecting her than actually testing her.

At least run against males if you are going to hide out in the synthetic abyss.

[Fager Fan]

Spectacular Bid was an east coast horse that went west and Affirmed was a west coast horse that came east.

The Zenyatta connections could easily move her east for the rest of her career (probably 4 races at most) and I am quite sure that an east coast racing secretary would be more than willing to accommodate her connections with stall space and all of the trimmings.

I am a big Zenyatta fan, but I am a bigger racing fan and if her connections is not willing to ship this fantastic mare around the country for her to exhibit her extraordinary racing ability at the top competitive level is both a disgrace and an insult to all racing fans.

I'm with you. Shireffs won't have a bigger horse in his life, so it's time to pack up the stable and head East for the rest of the season.

[OntheRail]

Right now, there is no reason for to leave California until the breeders cup. Now if some track wants to put up a ton of money and RA's connections agree to show up, then things might change. After that Oaklawn mess, if I were Moss, I would want some iron clad guarantees before I would come east. JMO
Well if Moss wants HOTY for 2010. Running a soft program on plastic in Cali... is not the way to do it. History should've taught him that. If they fallow their normal year she only has two/three more races in her for the year. Knock off the Vanity and we have the what... another weak campaign. I bet she runs back in the Lady's Classic if she runs at all. So much for running against G1 quality dirt horses on dirt. Like I said in the AB thread they will run back to Cali and run up the wins against weak fields sheltered by sympathetic racing secretaries. And so many scoff at Pepper's Pride cause she ran only in NM. Well all but 2 of Zenyatta's wins have been in Cali. I agree the Luster on Best Of All Times is turning to a nice shinny California Mare.

And how was the Oaklawn a mess other then the track owner trying to pull RA into it after Zen was already pointed to it. Why do we need a ton of cash... the win would be enough for Moss or Jackson. If you want kick up a bounce to any other horse that finishes first. That way it's not a high paid workout for third on down... nor for RA and Zen.

[gm10]

I agree that it is a bit disappointing, certainly not what I expected when Moss said they would travel a bit with her. On the other hand, it's a grade 1 that is open to Rachel Alexandra as well if I'm not mistaken. If she wants to beat Zenyatta in her home state, Hollywood is probably her best option.

[McSock]

They took Zen east to the AB. What more could they have done? Others do not want to race her, so why go someplace else?

I am seeing a lot of the "anti-zen" comments are nothing more than what individuals want. Not what is best for the horse or even racing, just what the individual wants.

The horse is on track for BC classic, very few of the talking heads on this board are qualified to plot out the best plan to get her to the classic. The connections will get her there, they have done ok with her so far. What is best for racing, not some individual wants, is the horse at the classic. I did not say she had to win the classic, just being there will be good for the sport. If the RA connections come up with an excuse not to show again, oh well.

[Spalding No!]

They took Zen east to the AB. What more could they have done? Others do not want to race her, so why go someplace else?

I am seeing a lot of the "anti-zen" comments are nothing more than what individuals want. Not what is best for the horse or even racing, just what the individual wants.

The horse is on track for BC classic, very few of the talking heads on this board are qualified to plot out the best plan to get her to the classic. The connections will get her there, they have done ok with her so far. What is best for racing, not some individual wants, is the horse at the classic. I did not say she had to win the classic, just being there will be good for the sport. If the RA connections come up with an excuse not to show again, oh well.

I agree. What's best for racing is for the BC Classic to be the only important race of 2010. That is what it all comes down to.

The rest of the year be damned.

[cj]

I agree that it is a bit disappointing, certainly not what I expected when Moss said they would travel a bit with her. On the other hand, it's a grade 1 that is open to Rachel Alexandra as well if I'm not mistaken. If she wants to beat Zenyatta in her home state, Hollywood is probably her best option.

Why does it have to be against Rachel? Why not males on dirt? Those are really the only things left to see. The rest is an old, make that very old, story. Even a try on turf would be better than another win against decent SoCal female claimers. Do they really think a loss is that big a deal? Almost all the great ones have them. Great horses are remember for the races they win, not the races they lose.

As of now, there are really only two races she has won that anybody cares about...the two BC wins. You would think they would want to add to that total. Even Rachel has four...two Classics, a win over males in the Haskell, and a win over older males in the Woodward.

[Show Me the Wire]

I agree. What's best for racing is for the BC Classic to be the only important race of 2010. That is what it all comes down to.

The rest of the year be damned.

Wholly agree with you and McSock.

The heavy weight boxing champ doesn't wear himself out by participating in as many fights against all comers, before the title fight.

[Cadillakin]

They are already politicking to Hollywood Park about how much weight she might carry in the Vanity. God forbid she might have to give some weight to claimers.

It's not only about giving weight to competitors, it's also about doing what is best for the horse. Her win in last years Vanity with 129 lbs up represented the largest weight assignment - by either gender - for a winning horse in over 30 years. Imagine that, all of the horses in the entire country since 1977, and not a single one of them has carried more. Nobody. 30 Horses of the Year have gone by since the great Ack Ack carried that much and more, and not a single one of them has carried that much weight..

If you were a horseman, you'd understand Shirriffs concerns with the imposts. But you're not.. You're just a guy with a keyboard.. with little knowledge of the stress and toll racing can take on it's athletes..

FYI, since you seem to know very little about the subject.. Bobby Frankel, Charlie Whittingham and many of the greats, past and present, knew that high weight at high speed, represents higher stress, on bone, muscle, and body. All of those men, without exception, waited for the assignments before committing to a race, and all lobbied against their horses carry too high of an impost..

[Spalding No!]

It's not only about giving weight to competitors, it's also about doing what is best for the horse. Her win in last years Vanity with 129 lbs up represented the largest weight assignment - by either gender - for a winning horse in over 30 years. Imagine that, all of the horses in the entire country since 1977, and not a single one of them has carried more. Nobody. 30 Horses of the Year have gone by since the great Ack Ack carried that much and more, and not a single one of them has carried that much weight..

Of course, you're dead wrong. Didn't Skip Away carry 131 lbs to victory in the '00 Iselin?

Answer: Yes.

If you were a horseman, you'd understand Shirriffs concerns with the imposts. But you're not.. You're just a guy with a keyboard.. with little knowledge of the stress and toll racing can take on it's athletes..

And you are?

From what I gather, you're a guy who doesn't have his facts right and can't spell.

Forget racing. How stressful was grade school for you?

[Hedevar]

Please check your facts regarding weight. Ack Ack was retired well before 1977 and I know Spectacular Bid won and set a track record carrying 130 lbs at Arlington in 1980.

[Dahoss9698]

It's not only about giving weight to competitors, it's also about doing what is best for the horse. Her win in last years Vanity with 129 lbs up represented the largest weight assignment - by either gender - for a winning horse in over 30 years. Imagine that, all of the horses in the entire country since 1977, and not a single one of them has carried more. Nobody. 30 Horses of the Year have gone by since the great Ack Ack carried that much and more, and not a single one of them has carried that much weight..

If you were a horseman, you'd understand Shirriffs concerns with the imposts. But you're not.. You're just a guy with a keyboard.. with little knowledge of the stress and toll racing can take on it's athletes..

FYI, since you seem to know very little about the subject.. Bobby Frankel, Charlie Whittingham and many of the greats, past and present, knew that high weight at high speed, represents higher stress, on bone, muscle, and body. All of those men, without exception, waited for the assignments before committing to a race, and all lobbied against their horses carry too high of an impost..

I love how the photoshop ROI guy is going to tell me about what I do and don't know. Your first paragraph is funny. Didn't Cigar carry 130 pounds in his victories in the Mass Cap and Citation Challenge in 1996?

http://www.drf.com/hcponline/samples/269.pdf

If you are going to be so definite, at least be accurate. But, you could always photoshop Cigar's pp's and repost them.

Score one for the guy with the keyboard.

[Dahoss9698]

The heavy weight boxing champ doesn't wear himself out by participating in as many fights against all comers, before the title fight.

Worst analogy in the history of message boards.

[Show Me the Wire]

Don't you have something better to do like give picks to a public selector, then obsessing over me? :lol:

BTW how is it the worse? Both are individual athletic endeavors, which take a toll on the participants and both have championship events, could you enlighten us all, since you want to take the thread off topic and focus on me.

Amazing how much attention you give me, I really must have made a direct hit.

[gm10]

Why does it have to be against Rachel? Why not males on dirt? Those are really the only things left to see. The rest is an old, make that very old, story. Even a try on turf would be better than another win against decent SoCal female claimers. Do they really think a loss is that big a deal? Almost all the great ones have them. Great horses are remember for the races they win, not the races they lose.

As of now, there are really only two races she has won that anybody cares about...the two BC wins. You would think they would want to add to that total. Even Rachel has four...two Classics, a win over males in the Haskell, and a win over older males in the Woodward.

Hmmm sounds to me like you are trying to put a certain horse down a bit. Two months ago Z had it all to prove because she hadn't beaten RA on the dirt. Maybe she's facing moving obstacles.

It's pretty clear she's going to the BC Classic on the dirt this year so the males will have their chance again this year. And she has already shown up for that other big race. Can't see why she needs to go out to the East in between. It's RA who needs to prove things now, she didn't show on the two occasions that really mattered to the big public. If she's so good, I'd advice JJ to go and find Zenyatta.

Again, I'm still a bit disappointed, I'd expected a slightly more adventurous campaign, but as you have pointed out many times, it's still early season, and after all, the season doesn't end in September.

[Dahoss9698]

Don't you have something better to do like give picks to a public selector, then obsessing over me? :lol:

BTW how is it the worse? Both are individual athletic endeavors, which take a toll on the participants and both have championship events, could you enlighten us all, since you want to take the thread off topic and focus on me.

Amazing how much attention you give me, I really must have made a direct hit.

I refuse to allow you to derail another thread. But, you completely missed the fact that one of the replies you agreed with was dripping with sarcasm.

I give you no more attention than anyone else. If I disagree with something, I respond. It just so happens I disagree with the nonsense you spew a lot, because you usually have no idea what you are talking about.

[Show Me the Wire]

Dahoss:

FYI, I understood the dripping sarcasm.

That was the point of the boxing analogy, which is very applicable.

You see you really don't know what I mean when I post as you assume. you do.

So if you don't want to derail this thread prove it and let it go.

[castaway01]

Don't you have something better to do like give picks to a public selector, then obsessing over me? :lol:

BTW how is it the worse? Both are individual athletic endeavors, which take a toll on the participants and both have championship events, could you enlighten us all, since you want to take the thread off topic and focus on me.

Amazing how much attention you give me, I really must have made a direct hit.

It's a terrible analogy for numerous reasons...hope I can say that since I'm not DaHoss. Why? Well, for one thing every fight the heavyweight champ fights is a title defense, while horse racing has a "championship day" but they're not going to take some imaginary title belt away from Zenyatta if she loses an actual challenging race. She doesn't have to win the Breeders Cup to be considered great (she's done it already) or even to win Horse of the Year. Zenyatta's not defending a title every start. However, if you love the boxing analogy so much, they're choosing to have the heavyweight champ fight a bunch of amateurs in almost all of her races.
Yes, every race takes its toll, but the Apple Blossom that was thought to be a challenge turned out to be a joke because Rachel didn't make it. I don't blame Zenyatta for that at all, but why not give her a test by entering her against Grade 1 males, hopefully on the dirt? We have no idea if she'll even be running at Breeders Cup time, but she's running RIGHT NOW...why not see what she can do against the best males instead of running in paid exhibitions? If she loses, she loses.

[bisket]

i just think they are trying to keep her warm until this summer and fall. they know thats when the real racing begins. i just think they are trying to keep her from getting stail, and at the same time not have her peaking right now. none of the horses that will make a difference to the way her detractors have characterized her will be in the foster. so why ship and all that now when it will be something that they'll want to do later this summer and fall. shipping is something that is best to keep at a minimum. in alot of respects it makes sense. if you want to get on somebodies case about her not racing "anyone of importance" you should direct it at all the connections that are running in the other direction whenever they try to enter her in a race on dirt.

[cj]

Hmmm sounds to me like you are trying to put a certain horse down a bit. Two months ago Z had it all to prove because she hadn't beaten RA on the dirt. Maybe she's facing moving obstacles.



I'm not putting her down at all. I drove 6 hours to watch her last race. I am putting down the connections, the people who are mapping out a very similar and weak campaign to the one of last year.

[Show Me the Wire]

castaway01;

I can agree with what you say about losing the championship, as there is no championship, on the line to lose.

My point was in response to the posting about "damn" the rest of the year, becasue every hard or difficult race takes a toll on the aninimal and every horse has a limited number of performances.

If the goal is winning a high profile year-end race, the rest of the year is insignificant. A sensible approach will not subject your athlete to heavy wear and tear before the big event.

[BluegrassProf]

Yes, every race takes its toll, but the Apple Blossom that was thought to be a challenge turned out to be a joke because Rachel didn't make it. I don't blame Zenyatta for that at all, but why not give her a test by entering her against Grade 1 males, hopefully on the dirt? We have no idea if she'll even be running at Breeders Cup time, but she's running RIGHT NOW...why not see what she can do against the best males instead of running in paid exhibitions? If she loses, she loses.
This is exactly right. The Apple Blossom was a cupcake match....absolutely, Rachel was MIA, and absolutely nothing against Zenyatta for that. However, it doesn't change what the race was: a cupcake match. In the grander sense, it showed us not a darned thing.

We need to be far more careful - with Zen or any other horse - about awarding greatness by default, basing accomplishments upon "might-have-beens." Her record, at the end of the day, will be what it will be...perhaps they should be setting sights a bit higher.

[tzipi]

Wholly agree with you and McSock.

The heavy weight boxing champ doesn't wear himself out by participating in as many fights against all comers, before the title fight.

Hey Show,
So are we saying big horses can just not run against anyone anymore until Nov??? Wow, racing is really going the wrong way. I mean yeah title fights are the best and what you want but why risk Zen all year for just one race an race they don't even know they'll make then? Bring back the old days when horses ran hard all season. That's racing to me. JMO. This is not just against Zens connections as racing on a whole has been doing this the last few years. I hope Zenny does make the BC(still long way off) but this new racing rules just seems odd to me.

Plus RA was being kinda beat up on for her races last year(not sure why) way before they said the BC was 100% out so why is this different. I really can't wait for this drama to be over :D

[bisket]

since zen's connections talked about the foster, no one has come forward to say they are going to the race. so it will be another field like the apple blossom only these horse will be males. why should they bother? it will prove nothing. in that case why not stay "home" and prove nothing.

[tzipi]

since zen's connections talked about the foster, no one has come forward to say they are going to the race. so it will be another field like the apple blossom only these horse will be males. why should they bother? it will prove nothing.

Running against males is different than running against females. Not often that females can beat males. It's alot more challenging and ALOT more fun to watch to :ThmbUp:

[BluegrassProf]

If the goal is winning a high profile year-end race, the rest of the year is insignificant. A sensible approach will not subject your athlete to heavy wear and tear before the big event.How one can subscribe to this notion is simply beyond me.

A whole grand year of racing - all of the history, potential accomplishments, stories and spectators, all rendered insignificant? The extraordinary breadth of an entire industry deemed irrelevant relative to, of all things, the Breeder's Cup?

The has to be the most unabashedly myopic statements on this game I've read in a long, long while. Yikes. :ThmbDown:

[bisket]

i agree, but running against a bunch of allowance horses in the race for place and show money isn't real fun to watch male or female. no one of any substance is pointing to the race. why ship?

[cj]

How one can subscribe to this notion is simply beyond me.

A whole grand year of racing - all of the history, potential accomplishments, stories and spectators, all rendered insignificant? The extraordinary breadth of an entire industry deemed irrelevant relative to, of all things, the Breeder's Cup?

The has to be the most unabashedly myopic statements on this game I've read in a long, long while. Yikes. :ThmbDown:

To me, this is a big part of why I think the BC sucks for racing. It is a great day for betting, but it doesn't gain any real national exposure for the sport and kills off a lot of prestigious races.

[tzipi]

To me, this is a big part of why I think the BC sucks for racing. It is a great day for betting, but it doesn't gain any real national exposure for the sport and kills off a lot of prestigious races.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[DeanT]

since zen's connections talked about the foster, no one has come forward to say they are going to the race. so it will be another field like the apple blossom only these horse will be males. why should they bother? it will prove nothing. in that case why not stay "home" and prove nothing.

I think that's a good post.

If she is managed properly to win the BC classic, defeating whomever shows up, while undefeated, she will win back to back BC's on two different surfaces, as a female racehorse.

That might not be accomplished again, ever. She'll be regarded as the best mare of all time.

If she wins the Stephen Foster, or races in it, or does not race in it, no one 20 years from now will care, or probably even remember that.

[tzipi]

I think that's a good post.

If she is managed properly to win the BC classic, defeating whomever shows up, while undefeated, she will win back to back BC's on two different surfaces, as a female racehorse.

That might not be accomplished again, ever. She'll be regarded as the best mare of all time.

If she wins the Stephen Foster, or races in it, or does not race in it, no one 20 years from now will care, or probably even remember that.

That what I was saying or I guess asking. So it seems like the point of racing now is for top horses to just stay safe and against low fields(stay undefeated probably) and then just run in the BC because that's what people remember. So all these other top races are going to become non factors and have mid class horses over time then. Top horses will just beat up on overmatched fields all season and relax? And this is good for racing and it's fans how?

Give me back the old days when racing was fun and exciting :ThmbUp:

[DeanT]

No not at all. Just that they are not going to torture the horse to appease some people on a chat board, or in the media. No good horseperson would.

She'll race out east before then, just not tomorrow, so no use getting our panties in a bunch. If she gets beat when she races at BEL, SAR or or whatever, then plan b comes.

She is undefeated and the first mare to win the Classic. She has won back to back BC's, she's won on dirt and synthetic, she's beaten horses with testicles and those without testicles. She has captured the imagination of racing fans everywhere....... I think the connections are doing just fine.

Sit back and enjoy the ride.

[McSock]

I think that's a good post.

If she is managed properly to win the BC classic, defeating whomever shows up, while undefeated, she will win back to back BC's on two different surfaces, as a female racehorse.

That might not be accomplished again, ever. She'll be regarded as the best mare of all time.

If she wins the Stephen Foster, or races in it, or does not race in it, no one 20 years from now will care, or probably even remember that.

So well said! RA is welcome to run in the race also, but Zen chasing her around the country is just plan silly, when really the connections have loftier goals set.

[cj]

So well said! RA is welcome to run in the race also, but Zen chasing her around the country is just plan silly, when really the connections have loftier goals set.

It seems they don't have loftier goals. The thought here seems to be to race slugs, cows, arabians, and then repeat in the BC Classic. Since that is the same as last year, it isn't what I would call loftier.

[tzipi]

No not at all. Just that they are not going to torture the horse to appease some people on a chat board, or in the media. No good horseperson would.

She'll race out east before then, just not tomorrow, so no use getting our panties in a bunch. If she gets beat when she races at BEL, SAR or or whatever, then plan b comes.

She is undefeated and the first mare to win the Classic. She has won back to back BC's, she's won on dirt and synthetic, she's beaten horses with testicles and those without testicles. She has captured the imagination of racing fans everywhere....... I think the connections are doing just fine.

Sit back and enjoy the ride.

Totally agree, Zen will do something most horses can't. God bless her if she does. She's got the goods to do it.But it seems RA was being tortured by people last year here to run in certain races to appease people and I didn't see the same posts against that? RA beat horses with "testicles" in the Preakness so why did she have to keep running against them or in the JCGC,etc to appease fans?

OK thats fine about what you write about beating males,etc but just one race today puts to rest a horses season? Horses back in the day ran multiple times against different fields and ran in top races. That's my point here. Racing is not the same and maybe fans know about what's going on but it doesn't create new fans or prove anything different than what's been going on for last couple of years in racing.

Old time trainers and owners would be in shock about what goes to waste today IMO. They would be like damn give me the horse, ill run in the top races with that talent and beat em. Not once but twice :lol: . Ahhh the good ole days.

[DeanT]

Zip,

Rachel's sked was brutal last year. She was tortured in the Woodward. I think it is a big reason she has been in the barn for most of the last seven months.

I had a chat with someone before the season about Z and asked if we owned her, what kind of sked she would have. We both agreed that she would have a prep at home, the AB against RA, then back home for a layup, then out east for two dirt tilts, back home for a freshening and a prep, then the ultimate goal for me and anyone else with an older champ, the BC Classic.

I dont think that is an "easy schedule" at all, but some people would I am sure. It is a schedule that keeps your horse fresh enough to live and race another day. I honestly (from reading some comments) feel that some think they are managing a machine. For gosh sakes she's a horse.

[cpitt84]

ugh. so annoying. she needs more races against males. what are they afraid of? she can beat em all!

[tzipi]

Zip,

Rachel's sked was brutal last year. She was tortured in the Woodard. I think it is a big reason she has been in the barn for most of the last seven months.

I had a chat with someone before the season about Z and asked if we owned her, what kind of sked she would have. We both agreed that she would have a prep at home, the AB against RA, then back home for a layup, then out east for two dirt tilts, back home for a freshening and a prep, then the ultimate goal for me and anyone else with an older champ, the BC Classic.

I dont think that is an "easy schedule" at all, but some people would I am sure. But I honestly (from reading some comments) feel that some think they are managing a machine. For gosh sakes they are horses.

Hey listen Zen does her thing and it's hard not to like a horse like that. I hope she stays safe and continues to do her thing. I also hope RA is back on track and does her thing. My point in my posts though is racing is not even close to what it used to be. No way should horses be abused. I said RA needed a rest after that Woodward. I was just saying on a whole racing is not the same. That's all.

[McSock]

It seems they don't have loftier goals. The thought here seems to be to race slugs, cows, arabians, and then repeat in the BC Classic. Since that is the same as last year, it isn't what I would call loftier.

I refuse to get into one the PA bickering matches that do not advance the thread or racing. But your statement is total BS. Any horse winning 2 classics is special, doing it on 2 different surfaces is special, and is mare doing is close to great. The path the connections take to reach that goal far outweighs your opinion on how it should be done. Just because others choose not to race against her, or she is not going to places YOU think she should, in the end if she does win the 2nd classic, your opinion will be meaningless.

[only11]

So much for being ambitious. So far three races, three cupcake fields.
RA had a cupcake field too....and LOST

[tzipi]

RA had a cupcake field too....and LOST

Most horses, even all time greats run in cupcakes fields first race back off of long layoffs. Some win, some lose. Not anything new or a big deal. I just want to see a an ambitious year for these girls AS LONG as they are sound and up for it. :ThmbUp:

[bisket]

i'm with everybody about the point that the breeders cup has cheapened the rest of the year. it is true horses can avoid each other all year long, and still run in a long line of grade 1 races. its a shame. what really needs to be done is to reduce the amount of graded races so connections can't do this.

[Relwob Owner]

I refuse to get into one the PA bickering matches that do not advance the thread or racing. But your statement is total BS. Any horse winning 2 classics is special, doing it on 2 different surfaces is special, and is mare doing is close to great. The path the connections take to reach that goal far outweighs your opinion on how it should be done. Just because others choose not to race against her, or she is not going to places YOU think she should, in the end if she does win the 2nd classic, your opinion will be meaningless.


His statement isnt BS at all, in my opinion....the sentence you responded to didnt question whether or not Zenyatta is special. It spoke to the goals that have been set for her, which I agree are lame. Of course she is a special horse but they continue to run her in soft spots against females and that is disappointing......

[cj]

RA had a cupcake field too....and LOST

Right, although the horse that won isn't a cupcake on dirt. But even so, who cares? Horses lose all the time. The best horses have all lost with a couple exceptions. The reason is because they ran against real horses over and over.

[miesque]

Haven't we seen enough of her on synthetics? It is kind of a been there, done that. Lets see her face real horses on dirt.

I realize the ultimate goal is the BC Classic, but I've been around long enough to know that November is a long, long way away, especially for a 6 year old mare.

At this point in time, I can't figure out why Rachel or Zenyatta was brought back for another season. The connections are both being very lame.

I understand where you are coming from, but Zenyatta is based at Hollywood Park and consequently any forays into Grade Is on dirt requires a plane ride across the country and back. There is a limit of how many times during a season you would want to do that. I would guesstimate that 2-3 more cross country trips including the Breeders Cup would be the maximum you would see and I could not blame them for taking such an approach because I would do the same. They have been pretty forthright that their main goal is the Breeders Cup which will be at Churchill on the dirt and there are many different ways to get there and if you want to get to Churchill at a peak you aren't going to squeeze the lemon too dry at any point during the season. That said, there should be at least one or two races along the way to broaden her legacy. Now it has been mentioned on this thread that they should instead send Zenyatta to take up shop on the East Coast. However, one of the reasons the owners brought her back is because they very much enjoy watching her run and being around her and they live in Southern California, not to mention her trainer is a hands on SoCal trainer without multiple operations around the country. Personally I think that if she does stay and run in SoCal the next race or two it really should be in the more prestigous open company races like the Hollywood Gold Cup and if she does indeed run in the Vanity next then there really is no excuse not to go to a race like the Hollywood Gold Cup instead of another race in the distaff division again.

[tzipi]

I understand where you are coming from, but Zenyatta is based at Hollywood Park and consequently any forays into Grade Is on dirt requires a plane ride across the country and back. There is a limit of how many times during a season you would want to do that. I would guesstimate that 2-3 more cross country trips including the Breeders Cup would be the maximum you would see and I could not blame them for taking such an approach because I would do the same. They have been pretty forthright that their main goal is the Breeders Cup which will be at Churchill on the dirt and there are many different ways to get there and if you want to get to Churchill at a peak you aren't going to squeeze the lemon too dry at any point during the season. That said, there should be at least one or two races along the way to broaden her legacy. Now it has been mentioned on this thread that they should instead send Zenyatta to take up shop on the East Coast. However, one of the reasons the owners brought her back is because they very much enjoy watching her run and being around her and they live in Southern California, not to mention her trainer is a hands on SoCal trainer without multiple operations around the country. Personally I think that if she does stay and run in SoCal the next race or two it really should be in the more prestigous open company races like the Hollywood Gold Cup and if she does indeed run in the Vanity next then there really is no excuse not to go to a race like the Hollywood Gold Cup instead of another race in the distaff division again.


Hey Miesque, good to see you :) Agree with your post. I would love to see her in the HGC. I just hope maybe they can get her to Saratoga or Belmont for a race. I would love to watch her run in person. That would be awesome.

[rwwupl]

I understand where you are coming from, but Zenyatta is based at Hollywood Park and consequently any forays into Grade Is on dirt requires a plane ride across the country and back. There is a limit of how many times during a season you would want to do that. I would guesstimate that 2-3 more cross country trips including the Breeders Cup would be the maximum you would see and I could not blame them for taking such an approach because I would do the same. They have been pretty forthright that their main goal is the Breeders Cup which will be at Churchill on the dirt and there are many different ways to get there and if you want to get to Churchill at a peak you aren't going to squeeze the lemon too dry at any point during the season. That said, there should be at least one or two races along the way to broaden her legacy. Now it has been mentioned on this thread that they should instead send Zenyatta to take up shop on the East Coast. However, one of the reasons the owners brought her back is because they very much enjoy watching her run and being around her and they live in Southern California, not to mention her trainer is a hands on SoCal trainer without multiple operations around the country. Personally I think that if she does stay and run in SoCal the next race or two it really should be in the more prestigous open company races like the Hollywood Gold Cup and if she does indeed run in the Vanity next then there really is no excuse not to go to a race like the Hollywood Gold Cup instead of another race in the distaff division again.


Very good analysis... I can not think of any race that "Z" is eligible to run in that she would not be the favorite. At this point in her career she is the best I have ever seen.

rwwupl

[born2ride]

It's not only about giving weight to competitors, it's also about doing what is best for the horse. Her win in last years Vanity with 129 lbs up represented the largest weight assignment - by either gender - for a winning horse in over 30 years. Imagine that, all of the horses in the entire country since 1977, and not a single one of them has carried more. Nobody. 30 Horses of the Year have gone by since the great Ack Ack carried that much and more, and not a single one of them has carried that much weight..

If you were a horseman, you'd understand Shirriffs concerns with the imposts. But you're not.. You're just a guy with a keyboard.. with little knowledge of the stress and toll racing can take on it's athletes..

FYI, since you seem to know very little about the subject.. Bobby Frankel, Charlie Whittingham and many of the greats, past and present, knew that high weight at high speed, represents higher stress, on bone, muscle, and body. All of those men, without exception, waited for the assignments before committing to a race, and all lobbied against their horses carry too high of an impost..

Oh please. Not a single competitor in the Vanity last year had a graded stakes win on their resume before the race or added one after. In fact after the Vanity, Allicansayis Wow won an allowance race, Briecat won a non-graded handicap, Hot 'n' Duty won an allowance race, and Modification and Dawn after Dawn won nothing. For Zenyatta to carry 129 against this field was a very low weight. If any of the fields Zenyatta faced can be considered allowance horses, this is it. The field won a total of 9 races out of 49 starts last year, that's a dismal 18% win rate. The Vanity last year is the softest cupcake race Zenyatta has ever ran.

[Rackon]

I understand where you are coming from, but Zenyatta is based at Hollywood Park and consequently any forays into Grade Is on dirt requires a plane ride across the country and back. There is a limit of how many times during a season you would want to do that. I would guesstimate that 2-3 more cross country trips including the Breeders Cup would be the maximum you would see and I could not blame them for taking such an approach because I would do the same. They have been pretty forthright that their main goal is the Breeders Cup which will be at Churchill on the dirt and there are many different ways to get there and if you want to get to Churchill at a peak you aren't going to squeeze the lemon too dry at any point during the season. That said, there should be at least one or two races along the way to broaden her legacy. Now it has been mentioned on this thread that they should instead send Zenyatta to take up shop on the East Coast. However, one of the reasons the owners brought her back is because they very much enjoy watching her run and being around her and they live in Southern California, not to mention her trainer is a hands on SoCal trainer without multiple operations around the country. Personally I think that if she does stay and run in SoCal the next race or two it really should be in the more prestigous open company races like the Hollywood Gold Cup and if she does indeed run in the Vanity next then there really is no excuse not to go to a race like the Hollywood Gold Cup instead of another race in the distaff division again.

What Miesque said.:ThmbUp:

I adore this mare.

However, The Vanity has a bit of the been-there-done-that taint for those of us in the rest of the country. It will do nothing to appease her critics (although that isn't the game, getting to the BC right IS). I would imagine the connections want to race her a couple more times in CA, especially for the adoring fans - the track managements will love it. But count me as one of those that would like to see her in the HGC.

I'd imagine (hope & pray) we'll see her at least 1-2 more times in the east before the BCC. The biggest probelm with racing on dirt is...weather - for training and racing. Zen ain't gonna take up residence outside of CA. I don't think Shirreffs is scared of an "off" track so much as interrupting her training schedule and especially running on a sealed track. With this horse, I don't blame him.

I accept that whatever races Zenyatta ends up starting in this season will have to work into their master plan for the BC. Go to the Vanity if that's what they want and feel is the right spot at the right time. But I hope they get a bit more ambitious after that.

[Relwob Owner]

Very good analysis... I can not think of any race that "Z" is eligible to run in that she would not be the favorite. At this point in her career she is the best I have ever seen.

rwwupl


Are you saying the best female or the best overall horse you have ever seen? If it is the latter, I would really have to wonder.....she is a terrific mare but she has faced boys only once.......

[WinterTriangle]

Miesque, good post.

but why not give her a test by entering her against Grade 1 males, hopefully on the dirt? We have no idea if she'll even be running at Breeders Cup time, but she's running RIGHT NOW...why not see what she can do against the best males

Why not give both Rachel and Zen a test by entering them against males on dirt? In the same race?

If there are no females for Zen to run against, then what females are there for Rachel to run against by the same token?


Maybe they will both lose.

I do agree with whoever said that shipping is very hard on horses. Just about any owner/trainer here will agree, I imagine. All the ones I know say it is.

[joanied]

Oh please. Not a single competitor in the Vanity last year had a graded stakes win on their resume before the race or added one after. In fact after the Vanity, Allicansayis Wow won an allowance race, Briecat won a non-graded handicap, Hot 'n' Duty won an allowance race, and Modification and Dawn after Dawn won nothing. For Zenyatta to carry 129 against this field was a very low weight. If any of the fields Zenyatta faced can be considered allowance horses, this is it. The field won a total of 9 races out of 49 starts last year, that's a dismal 18% win rate. The Vanity last year is the softest cupcake race Zenyatta has ever ran.

The weight she carried in the vanity has nothing to do with the competition...what matters is the fact she carried that much...regardless of the other horses in any race she runs in...the weight is what Sherriff's worries about...can't blame him, IMO...it does cause more stress on the legs...she's a big, strong mare, and could carry that kind of weight in gallops, but to race at top speed, it would have effect on the legs...hell, the handicap divison colts don't carry that much weight anymore!

[castaway01]

Miesque, good post.



Why not give both Rachel and Zen a test by entering them against males on dirt? In the same race?

If there are no females for Zen to run against, then what females are there for Rachel to run against by the same token?


Maybe they will both lose.

I do agree with whoever said that shipping is very hard on horses. Just about any owner/trainer here will agree, I imagine. All the ones I know say it is.

My comments had nothing to do with RA. I was trying to describe what might make a great horse like Zenyatta's final season of racing more interesting for her fans, rather than beating the same tiny fields of mediocre fillies on polytrack over and over. Just to see what she could do on dirt against top competition would be intriguing. Great champions get to be great champions by beating the best.

I will add as a way of comparison since they have the same length winning streak that Cigar, for whatever he might have lacked in sheer brilliant speed compared to some of the all-time greats, DID ship all around the country and DID win Grade 1 races over and over. Right now I'd compare Zenyatta to Cigar and say she's similarly consistent but less accomplished in her career.

[Dahoss9698]

My comments had nothing to do with RA. I was trying to describe what might make a great horse like Zenyatta's final season of racing more interesting for her fans, rather than beating the same tiny fields of mediocre fillies on polytrack over and over. Just to see what she could do on dirt against top competition would be intriguing. Great champions get to be great champions by beating the best.

I will add as a way of comparison since they have the same length winning streak that Cigar, for whatever he might have lacked in sheer brilliant speed compared to some of the all-time greats, DID ship all around the country and DID win Grade 1 races over and over. Right now I'd compare Zenyatta to Cigar and say she's similarly consistent but less accomplished in her career.

After looking at Cigar's PP's yesterday I had a similar thought as you. They shipped all over the country and Dubai with him. Thankfully his connections weren't afraid of losing...or weight.

[classhandicapper]

Why does it have to be against Rachel? Why not males on dirt? Those are really the only things left to see. The rest is an old, make that very old, story. Even a try on turf would be better than another win against decent SoCal female claimers. Do they really think a loss is that big a deal? Almost all the great ones have them. Great horses are remember for the races they win, not the races they lose.

As of now, there are really only two races she has won that anybody cares about...the two BC wins. You would think they would want to add to that total. Even Rachel has four...two Classics, a win over males in the Haskell, and a win over older males in the Woodward.

I agree with the greater point you are making.

Staying in CA for another synthetic race against fillies is disappointing to me, but I have some very unique views on how she should be handled.

I think the older male horses were very weak last year and 3YO fillies have a much better chance against 3YO colts in spring/summer. So if you were going to take a shot, last year was the year to do it (the way Rachel did). I understand why Z's connection didn't until the Classic though. They had mapped out a campaign designed for her to peak on BC day and didn't want to wear her out before then the way Rachel's connections did to Rachel. They were successful, but it cost them in the HOTY voting.

This year they are going to try a more balanced attack.

The long term goal is still another BC Classic appearance. So they don't want to wear her out with a tough spring and summer campaign. But they plan to take some selective shots against tougher fields. The first attempt was in the Apple Blossom, but no one showed up. That's not their fault.

The thing is, IMO the older colts are going to be massively better this year than last year and a few of the 3YOs might be very good soon too. If it was up to me and I owned either Rachel or Zenyatta I'd try to avoid them and try to find each other instead. Neither of them is going to beat a couple of the best colts on the horizon when they are all geared up and peaking.

Almost all the great fillies have taken shots against older colts, but they didn't make a habit of it and they all searched for somewhat sub par fields to do it (otherwise they got trounced). The exception has actually been Zenyatta in the Classic, but as we know turf and synthetic racing is a little different and it gives the fillies a better shot at pulling off the improbable (we see that in Europe and even in the US on Breeder's Cup day turf races)

Personally, I'd like to see her make one trip to Belmont to face Rachel or another loaded field of fillies. I think she'd love those big wide sweeping turns to make her move. But I think it's unrealistic to want her to ship all over the country chasing down the best field they can find because she won't last until late summer that way let alone the BC. They did try in the Apple Blossom. It was Rachel that didn't show up.

I can't help but think her critics want so much of her because they are searching for a way to get her beat so they can gloat and don't really care whether it makes any sense for the horse or ownership. ;)

[FenceBored]

The weight she carried in the vanity has nothing to do with the competition...what matters is the fact she carried that much...regardless of the other horses in any race she runs in...the weight is what Sherriff's worries about...can't blame him, IMO...it does cause more stress on the legs...she's a big, strong mare, and could carry that kind of weight in gallops, but to race at top speed, it would have effect on the legs...hell, the handicap divison colts don't carry that much weight anymore!

In the US. Curlin carried 132 in his prep win in Dubai a couple of years ago. Pull up your pps from last year's BC. Gayego carried 134 in Dubai. The mare Dar Re Mi has carried 135. I just looked at the pps for the Dubai World Cup. Every male in that race had carried 130 at least once in their last 10 races with the following exception, the Americans. IMO the issue is the willingness of the connections to have their horse saddled with the weight, rather than the ability of the horse to run/win with the weight.

[Hedevar]

Seventy-five years ago horse racing was almost as popular as professional baseball and certainly more popular than professional football and professional basketball. Less than 50 years ago the voters of NYC approved OTB and shortly thereafter the smartest guys in the Jockey Club, showing great foresight, rebuilt Belmont and created one of the greatest white elephants around. In years the BC is not run there it is well used for its intended purpose one day a year, if the AC and bathrooms are working.

Whatever road Zenyatta takes to the BC will not change the downward trajectory of racing. The greed and avarice of politicians and the fact that the people in the industry could screw up a two car funeral will not change depending on what races Zenyatta is enetered in on her way to the BC Classic.

Her connections did not have to bring her back this year but chose to do so. No one would have blamed them one iota if they had retired her.

My suggestion is to enjoy watching her work whenever and wherever she does.

[Grits]

Seventy-five years ago horse racing was almost as popular as professional baseball and certainly more popular than professional football and professional basketball. Less than 50 years ago the voters of NYC approved OTB and shortly thereafter the smartest guys in the Jockey Club, showing great foresight, rebuilt Belmont and created one of the greatest white elephants around. In years the BC is not run there it is well used for its intended purpose one day a year, if the AC and bathrooms are working.

Whatever road Zenyatta takes to the BC will not change the downward trajectory of racing. The greed and avarice of politicians and the fact that the people in the industry could screw up a two car funeral will not change depending on what races Zenyatta is enetered in on her way to the BC Classic.

Her connections did not have to bring her back this year but chose to do so. No one would have blamed them one iota if they had retired her.

My suggestion is to enjoy watching her work whenever and wherever she does.

What a concise, and dead on honest comment on today's racing. Not to mention . . . . absolutely hilarious.

I hope you stick around, you've got some Southerner in you--somewhere.

:lol: LOLOLOL:lol: LOLOLOL:lol:

[Tom]

Every time I watch Belmont, I ask myself....Why?????

[Nikki1997]

I can't help but think her critics want so much of her because they are searching for a way to get her beat so they can gloat and don't really care whether it makes any sense for the horse or ownership. ;)[/

:ThmbUp:

[FenceBored]

I can't help but think her critics want so much of her because they are searching for a way to get her beat so they can gloat and don't really care whether it makes any sense for the horse or ownership. ;)

:ThmbUp:

:eek: :ThmbDown: :faint:

[Charlie D]

What is wrong with these people. Thank gawd there are the Ouija Board, Pride owners around.

BTW, i just read the Yanks may be invading Royal Ascot .Thank gawd there are these type of owners around :ThmbUp:

[nearco]

The weight she carried in the vanity has nothing to do with the competition...what matters is the fact she carried that much...regardless of the other horses in any race she runs in...the weight is what Sherriff's worries about...can't blame him, IMO...it does cause more stress on the legs...she's a big, strong mare, and could carry that kind of weight in gallops, but to race at top speed, it would have effect on the legs...hell, the handicap divison colts don't carry that much weight anymore!

Weight in and of itself means nothing. It's the amount that you are conceding to the rest of the field that counts. The most Zenyatta has ever carried is 129lbs. That's nothing. Horses carry more weight than that every day the world over.. for godsakes I've seen 2yos carry more weight than that.

[Relwob Owner]

I can't help but think her critics want so much of her because they are searching for a way to get her beat so they can gloat and don't really care whether it makes any sense for the horse or ownership. [/QUOTE]





I dont think people want her to get beat...I think people just get tired of people singing her praises when she continues to race against soft fields of her own sex......what is the best for the horse and the owners is fine with me but what those who sing her praises need to realize is that her legacy is tarnished by the unambitious schedule her owner and trainer continue to follow.....

[delayjf]

Stephen Foster > Gold Cup > Whitney > Woodward > JCGC > BC.

Go big or go home.

I agree, it makes no sence to bring Z out of retirement to run in 150k races. I can understand that they got caught up in the Apple Blossem especially with the big money up. But at this point they need to forget about RA and extablish Z as the handicap leader and run for the money. Its too bad they didn't have her ready for the SA Handicap or the Dubai World Cup. She certainly could have won either.

[joanied]

Weight in and of itself means nothing. It's the amount that you are conceding to the rest of the field that counts. The most Zenyatta has ever carried is 129lbs. That's nothing. Horses carry more weight than that every day the world over.. for godsakes I've seen 2yos carry more weight than that.

All true...in fact I've seen horses carry a blubber bellied sit in the saddle like a sack of potatoes type people going uphill on a mountain...don't make it right.
:)

[rwwupl]

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/rds_search/ci_14931971?IADID=Search-www.pasadenastarnews.com-www.pasadenastarnews.com


Excerpt from Art Wilson article...Plans for Zenyatta Remain Under Cover



Zenyatta's trainer, John Shirreffs, said Wednesday the unbeaten superstar could race in the $600,000 Stephen Foster Handicap at Churchill Downs against males June 12, stay home and go in the $250,000 Vanity Handicap against fillies and mares at Hollywood Park the next day, or be pointed in an entirely different direction for her next race.

If Zenyatta runs in the Stephen Foster or Vanity, she'd have four weeks before the Gold Cup, plenty of time between races. Shirreffs is characteristically playing it close to the vest, but he sounded like a man who would like to keep Zenyatta home for her next start.

"We'll see what the weights are for the Vanity and then make a decision," he said before saddling a horse in the fifth race on opening day of Hollywood Park's 71st spring- summer meet in front of an on-track crowd of 3,487.

"You can't ship every race, it's impossible

[FenceBored]

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/rds_search/ci_14931971?IADID=Search-www.pasadenastarnews.com-www.pasadenastarnews.com


Excerpt from Art Wilson article...Plans for Zenyatta Remain Under Cover

And don't forget... June 13th (Vanity Day) is Zenyatta bobblehead day at Hollywood Park.

[nearco]

All true...in fact I've seen horses carry a blubber bellied sit in the saddle like a sack of potatoes type people going uphill on a mountain...don't make it right.
:)

What's not right? You think it's wrong for a horse to race with over 130lbs on their back?
Why?
And what does a trail horse going up a mountain have to do with racing? Horses carry 130-140lbs, all the time, even 2yos. What's so weird expecting the best rated horse in the world to do the same?

[letswastemoney]

You can't ship every race Shirreffs...that is true.

But you can run in open company against males at Hollywood Park!! We know you are ducking!!!

[OntheRail]

You can't ship every race Shirreffs...that is true.

But you can run in open company against males at Hollywood Park!! We know you are ducking!!!

http://images.paraorkut.com/img/emoticons/images/d/duck-81.gif


:lol:

[BluegrassProf]

"You can't ship every race, it's impossible."Darn right! Shipping is tough! :(

For example, taking a couple of seasons to ship from Keeneland to Churchill to Oaklawn to Fairgrounds to Oaklawn to Churchill to Pimlico to Belmont to Monmouth to Saratoga to Fairgrounds would be unthinkable!

Or even shipping from Gulftream to Saratoga to Belmont to Santa Anita and back to Gulfstream again... Horrors!

After all, why on earth would a trainer - thinking of the horse's legacy, mind you - ship from Saratoga to Belmont to Aqueduct to Gulfstream to Oaklawn to Pimlico to Suffolk to Hollywood to Belmont to Gulfstream to effing Dubai to Suffolk to Arlington? All that travel? All those strange sights and smells and horses? What, for the title of "greatness?" I think not! As long as you get out there and win, it's all good, so why bother going through all that unnecessary stress? Place and race be damned, 16 is 16!!

It's such a relief that the greatness mantle can be won without all that frivilous jetlag.

I was holding the whole thing close to my chest, but I'll spill the beans here: I've been working on starting a petition to relocate all notable thoroughbreds and breeding operations to a centralized region of southern California, where the weather is blissful and the most relevant racing held. Drop the whole "national racing" thing...waste of time and energy. :ThmbUp:

Also, the new 65% takeout at Santa Anita will be going to plant saplings in the forest and to fund Frank Stronach's attempts to produce live unicorns (an expensive venture!), as well as to the formation of a slush fund to lay down annually-rotating all-weather tracks...we figure that's the fairest option for all competitors.


:bang:

C'mon, Johnny; there's no golden ticket here to say whatever you want knowing someone'll push the automatic applause button...in fact, this thread is a good example of the relative consensus: we all want to see potential realized...with Zenyatta, we all absolutely KNOW the potential is there; even the most aggressive Zen fans - in fact, especially the biggest fans - expect you to let her show what she's made of...there's really no excuse, particularly given the last outing. Who didn't show up to the AB is, at the moment, irrelevant...next starts should be based upon what the last race was, not what it was supposed to be.

In casual conversation with racing fans, it seems almost as if the most concerned about Sheriffs' plan are the biggest Zenyatta fans. They stand to be the most disappointed if it's going to be 2009 redux. Shipping has always been a part of this game, and when it hasn't been, legacies have suffered. And clearly, it doesn't take a violently biased fan to know it.

Ridiculous "the year of racing means squat when there's the BC" comments aside - my God, how would that go over in any other place, at any other period in the history of the sport?? - any racing fan worth a grain of salt is going to be concerned for Zenyatta's well-being and for her legacy as a great athlete. Absolutely, it's early...plenty of time to go elsewhere, make no mistake about that. But there's no reason to make excuses, and no reason to expect the most vocal fans to press - vocally - for a season to be proud of.

Seems to me there's very little wrong with that.

[ruffian75]

I will say it again...what is the legacy? If they want the legacy to be that Zenyatta is the greatest horse ever....

Stephen Foster
Delaware Handicap
Woodward / Personal Ensign (if they write it for RA too)
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Breeders Cup

That is an awesome schedule. I know what they are saying about shipping every time, but honestly, Zenyatta is in rarified air. She has proven herself at Hollywood and Santa Anita. Let the fans see this horse run!

[Nikki1997]

I guess you folks missed the little tidbit in the DRF that Shiriffs intends to point Zenyatta to the Foster on June 12 .

There may also be the possibility that Rachel shows up ...

So all that gratuitous kvetching in advance was a waste, not that some didn't get off on it anyway.

Stay tuned--and if Dave Johnson got it right--this will be another bunch of slugs, pigs, and crows that she makes look that way because she just runs right by them .

[Dahoss9698]

I guess you folks missed the little tidbit in the DRF that Shiriffs intends to point Zenyatta to the Foster on June 12 .



Do you have a link to this tidbit?

[Nikki1997]

Do you have a link to this tidbit?

Today's DRF--title is " More to the meet than the Derby " by Marty McGhee--about the fifth paragraph down .

Go fish .

[Dahoss9698]

Today's DRF--title is " More to the meet than the Derby " by Marty McGhee--about the fifth paragraph down .

Go fish .

That's some real wishful thinking. It's one sentence, with no quotes and it reads "Shirreffs has said." Who knows when he said it, but it doesn't appear it was recently. As of Wednesday Shirreffs said he is waiting to see the weights for the Vanity before they make a decision on where she is going next. I guess you missed that little tidbit a little further up in the thread.

Here's a not very original prediction. They are giving out Zenyatta bobbleheads the same day as the Vanity. Hollywood Park will give in to the whining about the weight and assign her something ridiculous like 128 pounds and she runs in the Vanity.

[WinterTriangle]

Great champions get to be great champions by beating the best.

I will add as a way of comparison since they have the same length winning streak that Cigar, for whatever he might have lacked in sheer brilliant speed compared to some of the all-time greats, DID ship all around the country and DID win Grade 1 races over and over. Right now I'd compare Zenyatta to Cigar and say she's similarly consistent but less accomplished in her career.

What you are leaving out is the "it" factor. There are many who really don't care if Zen races grueling races in her 6th year......her personality, dancing, running style, and such put her in rarified air, she's already there for some of us. Personally, I don't care if she lifts another hoof.

I sent many articles and photos to my 84 year old mom who doesn't follow horseracing......and she is a *fan* of Zenyatta.

Not all fans are hard-core racing buffs. Many of us look forward to seeing her first foal, etc. and the many years of enjoyment we will have when she's not even on the track anymore.

I've seen some pretty good races in my life. But seeing Zenyatta in person, putting her front legs out, and doing her princess routine, rates high on the memorable list. It's just the *essence* of a horse sometimes that fills one with goose bumps. What's wrong with being one of those "silly" fans?

[Dahoss9698]

What you are leaving out is the "it" factor. There are many who really don't care if Zen races grueling races in her 6th year......her personality, dancing, running style, and such put her in rarified air, she's already there for some of us. Personally, I don't care if she lifts another hoof.

I sent many articles and photos to my 84 year old mom who doesn't follow horseracing......and she is a *fan* of Zenyatta.

Not all fans are hard-core racing buffs. Many of us look forward to seeing her first foal, etc. and the many years of enjoyment we will have when she's not even on the track anymore.

I've seen some pretty good races in my life. But seeing Zenyatta in person, putting her front legs out, and doing her princess routine, rates high on the memorable list. It's just the *essence* of a horse sometimes that fills one with goose bumps. What's wrong with being one of those "silly" fans?

Of course there are all different types of "fans". You make it sound like hard core racing buffs don't appreciate horses.

We do. But we appreciate seeing them run. It's horse racing....not horse personality or horse dancing.

Watching Holy Bull dig in and hang on in the Travers....seeing Da Hoss put his head down and come back to beat Hawksley Hill...watching Rachel Alexandra lay it all out in the stretch of the Woodward, with the grandstand shaking from people cheering so loud. Then seeing her get a standing ovation as she made her way back to the winners circle. Those were goose bump moments for me, a racing buff.

What is wrong with being a hard core racing buff?

[Nikki1997]

That's some real wishful thinking. It's one sentence, with no quotes and it reads "Shirreffs has said." Who knows when he said it, but it doesn't appear it was recently. As of Wednesday Shirreffs said he is waiting to see the weights for the Vanity before they make a decision on where she is going next. I guess you missed that little tidbit a little further up in the thread.

Here's a not very original prediction. They are giving out Zenyatta bobbleheads the same day as the Vanity. Hollywood Park will give in to the whining about the weight and assign her something ridiculous like 128 pounds and she runs in the Vanity.

Didn't miss a thing . This article came out a day later .

And it is no more wishful thinking than the big ruckus made over Shireffs considering the Vanity and the weights--despite quotes--they are at least equally wishful--depending on your bias .

I am aware of bobblehead day as well .

So far we have two races considered for Z, and two dates .

Squawking about weights is nothing new either or exclusive to the Z people---the 130 club is over 50 years old--if you know your history .

It is Friday morning--one week before Derby weekend--do you know where Rachel willl be ???

Less definitive there, tick tock ... Monday's workout will be telling

[Dahoss9698]

Squawking about weights is nothing new either or exclusive to the Z people---the 130 club is over 50 years old--if you know your history .


The 130 club was already discussed (and proved wrong) a few pages ago. There have been plenty of horses to carry 130 pounds in the last 50 years--if you know your history.

[WinterTriangle]

What is wrong with being a hard core racing buff?

Nothing, since many of those also believe that Zenyatta IS a great horse, based on her actual racing career on the track, on multiple surfaces, a unique combination of ability and personality, with a ton of heart, guts and courage. Some even think she's one of the best ever.

Sheriff's has a plan for her, culminating with the Breeders Cup. Whether or not that plan pleases everyone is none of my concern.

I imagine she'll lose a race somewhere along the line.... which makes taking her out of retirement to risk "ruining" her perfect record at the age of 6 all the more audacious and admirable.

Watching Holy Bull dig in and hang on in the Travers....seeing Da Hoss put his head down and come back to beat Hawksley Hill...watching Rachel Alexandra lay it all out in the stretch of the Woodward, with the grandstand shaking from people cheering so loud

All that for me, too, and Zen winning breeders cup, etc.

[Nikki1997]

The 130 club was already discussed (and proved wrong) a few pages ago. There have been plenty of horses to carry 130 pounds in the last 50 years--if you know your history.

No shiat there have been plenty--and I have seen many of them, but the squawking was what I referred to .

Saw some carry some 140 plus as well in the Fall Highweight--albeit a sprint--most notably Ta Wee under John Rotz and 24 plus pounds of lead .

Cut school to see Fager and Damascus run with 130 and more as well--I saw my history and what predated it resides in my library , not unread.

High weights are basically a thing of the past, as well you should know .

[Dahoss9698]

High weights are basically a thing of the past, as well you should know .

They are a thing of the past because we have very few stars. Everyone is afraid to lose and that is why people duck and dodge all year long. Cigar didn't duck weight. Neither did Skip Away.

[Cardus]

Nothing, since many of those also believe that Zenyatta IS a great horse, based on her actual racing career on the track, on multiple surfaces, a unique combination of ability and personality, with a ton of heart, guts and courage. Some even think she's one of the best ever.

Sheriff's has a plan for her, culminating with the Breeders Cup. Whether or not that plan pleases everyone is none of my concern.

I imagine she'll lose a race somewhere along the line.... which makes taking her out of retirement to risk "ruining" her perfect record at the age of 6 all the more audacious and admirable.



All that for me, too, and Zen winning breeders cup, etc.

Those people have either left the reservation or do not have a sufficient foundation of knowledge (or experience).

[Relwob Owner]

Those people have either left the reservation or do not have a sufficient foundation of knowledge (or experience).


Well put....the amazing thing is that those who are misguided enough to think that she isnt the best ever should agree with with all of the Zenyatta "heters" in terms of her schedule....if she is one of the best ever, why not run against boys more?????

[Hedevar]

Well put....the amazing thing is that those who are misguided enough to think that she isnt the best ever should agree with with all of the Zenyatta "heters" in terms of her schedule....if she is one of the best ever, why not run against boys more?????

Because Zenyatta is a six year old mare. Rachel Alexandra beat 3 year old males in the Preakness and older males in the Woodward and the jury is still out as to whether she will ever be the same after those efforts.

Do you think Frank Whitely regreted running Ruffian against Foolish Pleasure?

[Relwob Owner]

Because Zenyatta is a six year old mare. Rachel Alexandra beat 3 year old males in the Preakness and older males in the Woodward and the jury is still out as to whether she will ever be the same after those efforts.

Do you think Frank Whitely regreted running Ruffian against Foolish Pleasure?



Sorry, meant to say "haters" not "heters" in my initial post....

So, your point is that Zenyatta, as a 6 year old mare, cant physically sustain going against the boys? Logical point and that thinking takes her out of any "best horse ever" conversation....when you get into that space, a horse should be able to say they have faced all comers in many tough races....Zenyatta ducks all year, staying with her own sex and points to ONE race against males....a great mare, but the best of all time? Not even close.....

[Hedevar]

I'm not one who ever said she was the best of all time. I don't happen to think that can be determined. The closest one can come is the best 25 of all time or the best 50. It is far to difficult to compare horses across generations.

[Audioslavery]

I've been to 8 of Zenyatta's races here in SoCal and even I'm getting tired of seeing her smash 4-5 undermatched fillies every time.

She needs to campaign, maybe not for the full season but at least for 3 more races this year (BC included).

[Nikki1997]

Maybe it would be prudent to wait till the year is over before complaining about Zenyatta's campaign .

The Mosses are committed to the BCC and are well aware that repeating last year's schedule will not cut it .

She has already won one G1 on dirt in which Rachel was expected to participate but did not .

Can you at least wait and see where she goes next ???

As far as being a six year old mare, this has zero to do with her facing males . This smacks of sexism--geldings like Forego and Kelso were in their prime then ..

As a late bloomer and slow, awkward developer, she has less wear and tear on her than an average horse of either sex her age .

Chronological age and physical and mental age are not as black and white as many think .

In other disciplines, six is considered quite young for a horse ...

Maybe if we let some rangy, awkward two year olds of several lines forego the rich stakes for twos and threes, they would be racing longer .

That said, bone loading at a young age has been proved clinically beneficial if it is done properly .

Last year the Mosses said they would do something different, and they did, but only once .

Not enough.

They made their goal for this year clear and said it again . Whatever they do may not be enough to suit some, and as a Zenyatta fan, I would like to see a resonable amount of dirt racing against males as well .

Where are all the demands for Rachel facing males or even getting into the gate for her next race ???

[Nikki1997]

Because Zenyatta is a six year old mare. Rachel Alexandra beat 3 year old males in the Preakness and older males in the Woodward and the jury is still out as to whether she will ever be the same after those efforts.

Do you think Frank Whitely regreted running Ruffian against Foolish Pleasure?

That is just silly .

I think Whitely regretted that she broke down, and that he didn't overule the Janney's to wait until the fall for a match and/or tries against males .

Ruffian broke a hind leg at two without racing against males at all, and given the fact that Reviewer, her sire, broke a leg every year he raced, and broke a leg while at stud, the genetic flaws in the pedigree suggests that Ruffian may have broken down again as well, regardless who she ran against, or in a workout .

It is absolute nonsense to suggest that the pressure of Foolish Pleasure--gasp, a male---caused this .

More significantly, when the starter pushed the button to open the gate, she twisted sideways at the same moment and broke awkwardly, scrambling into a lead change .

More than likely bones were wrenched when this ocurred that lead to the fracture .

Ruffian, and more recently Eight Belles , are held up as examples of females that met their Waterloo facing males, as well as the supposition that Rachel Alexandra was cooked in her last race against males .

It would be redundant and patronizing to point out that females break down against their own .

All the abovementioned could have done the same thing against females---broken down, taken a bad step, and been tired after a long campaign, but that would not fit the argument .

[Show Me the Wire]

That is just silly .............................................
All the abovementioned could have done the same thing against females---broken down, taken a bad step, and been tired after a long campaign, but that would not fit the argument .

I agree with the listed series of events, but you do leave off over-exertion. Over-exertion can lead to injury too. It is not silly to believe a female horse can overt-exert itself against a male horse.

[Dahoss9698]

Just to get back to the subject of weights for a second. I'm looking at Skip Away's lifetime pp's right now.

http://community.drf.com/files/skip-away.pdf

As a 5 year old he carried 127 lbs. while winning the Gulfstream Park Handicap, spotting Behrens (multiple grade 1 winner of $4.5 million) 13 pounds. He carried 128 lbs in the Pimlico Special and 130 lbs spotting Puerto Madero (won the Donn the following year) 14 lbs. Later he carried 131 while giving Stormin Fever 18 pounds.

I know the game has changed, but not that much. The reason I bring this up, is people are saying Zenyatta is one of the best of all time. When you compare her to the best of the last 15 years she doesn't come close.

That's not to say she isn't a very, very good horse. But I sometimes wonder just how much perspective people have when making "all time" declarations like we continue to see in regards to Zenyatta.

[Hedevar]

[QUOTE=Nikki1997]That is just silly .


Ruffian broke a hind leg at two without racing against males at all, and given the fact that Reviewer, her sire, broke a leg every year he raced, and broke a leg while at stud, the genetic flaws in the pedigree suggests that Ruffian may have broken down again as well, regardless who she ran against, or in a workout .

I just want to make sure I understand this. Are you saying that Ruffian suffered a broken leg at two and that Reviewer, who to the best of my knowledge raced three years, broke legs on three separate occasions?

[ghostyapper]

I think zenyatta's next start should be against males (not that it will shut up her critics as they will just find another excuse to hate) but some of the crap spewed by the rachel cronies in this thread is laughable.

They compare zenyatta to males when it comes to carrying weight to discredit her but then they wax poetic about rachel's woodward where she was GETTING 8 LBS against horses she was far better than.

And also I guess the "it's a long season be patient" goes out the window when discussing zenyatta's schedule, it's then "pedal to the medal from here till november"

By the way when it rachel racing again exactly? I know zenyatta's on track performances this year pale in comparison to those bullet workout's rachel's been running that has set the racing world on fire :lol:

[Spalding No!]

They compare zenyatta to males when it comes to carrying weight to discredit her but then they wax poetic about rachel's woodward where she was GETTING 8 LBS against horses she was far better than.

Actually, the weight issue was brought up to speculate on whether or not she would indeed run in the Vanity, as John Shireffs has more than once been quoted since the Apple Blossom as saying he was concerned with what the racing secretary would assign.

Last week, when the DRF headline said she was pointing to the Stephen Foster, Shireffs said that it was unlikely for her to run in the Vanity because of the weight that would be assigned. Suddenly (and suspiciously in some eyes), the Vanity is back on the table.

However, the weight thing has only dragged on because of some ridiculous post pages ago that tried to counter with Zenyatta having carried the highest weight assignment in 30-odd years in the Vanity last year. It was a complete falsehood and has had more holes punched threw it than Tsar Nicholas II.

As far as Rachel Alexandra in the Woodward is concerned, once again, she was a 3yo filly last year. Surprisingly, that is not of interest to you, but make no mistake that simple fact is a huge reason that her 2009 campaign was one for the record books.

[ghostyapper]

As far as Rachel Alexandra in the Woodward is concerned, once again, she was a 3yo filly last year. Surprisingly, that is not of interest to you, but make no mistake that simple fact is a huge reason that her 2009 campaign was one for the record books.

Yes and the reason people were so impressed and blinded by it (as they always are when something is accomplished at a young age) is because they mistakenly assume that the best is yet to come. As of now that's looking like the ceiling, not the floor. O wait, I forgot we're supposed to have patience... :lol:

[FenceBored]

I just want to make sure I understand this. Are you saying that Ruffian suffered a broken leg at two and that Reviewer, who to the best of my knowledge raced three years, broke legs on three separate occasions?

Yes, that's right.
[Reviewer] fractured a cannon bone as a juvenile, suffered a second cannon bone fracture the next year, then was retired permanently after a third fracture as a four-year-old.
-- Ruffian, by Milton Toby, p.41

"So, I had the pictures sent down to Dr. Alex Harthill in Kentucky; he called right back, said she had a hairline fracture in the right hind, be all right in thirty days or so."
-- Ruffian, by Milton Toby, p.65

[FenceBored]

zenyatta's on track performances this year pale in comparison to those bullet workout's rachel's been running that has set the racing world on fire

Glad you agree. :)

[Spalding No!]

Yes and the reason people were so impressed and blinded by it (as they always are when something is accomplished at a young age) is because they mistakenly assume that the best is yet to come. As of now that's looking like the ceiling, not the floor. O wait, I forgot we're supposed to have patience... :lol:

Well, that's a bit beyond the issue of weight-carrying. Introducing Rachel Alexandra into that discussion is pointless, as she was 3 when she did all her significant running. Has any 3yo not received weight when taking on its elders?

As to what you're steering the thread towards now with the above post, there are many who think that Rachel Alexandra's "ceiling" from last year is good enough to beat Zenyatta.

[joanied]

Yes, that's right.[Reviewer] fractured a cannon bone as a juvenile, suffered a second cannon bone fracture the next year, then was retired permanently after a third fracture as a four-year-old.

-- Ruffian, by Milton Toby, p.41

"So, I had the pictures sent down to Dr. Alex Harthill in Kentucky; he called right back, said she had a hairline fracture in the right hind, be all right in thirty days or so."
-- Ruffian, by Milton Toby, p.65

And he met his demise, at the farm...from a broken leg. Ruffian was an accident waiting to happen...it's amazing she lasted as long as she did...she would have been retired after her 3 yr old season...because she was so 'fragile'...her race with Foolish Pleasure had nothing to do with what happened...and everyone at Belmont, at that time, watching her gallop in the mornings knew she wasn't right...only a matter of time, and unfortunatley, it happened at the worst possible time.

[ghostyapper]

Well, that's a bit beyond the issue of weight-carrying. Introducing Rachel Alexandra into that discussion is pointless, as she was 3 when she did all her significant running. Has any 3yo not received weight when taking on its elders?

As to what you're steering the thread towards now with the above post, there are many who think that Rachel Alexandra's "ceiling" from last year is good enough to beat Zenyatta.

And don't make it like I'm the one who's bringing up rachel out of the clear blue sky here. Just read the thread and you'll see.

As for her ceiling last year, I think with the right pace setup and 9 furlongs or less should it would have been a great race. A fast pace or longer than 9 furlongs and I'd make zenyatta 3/5

But my ceiling comment really has nothing to do with comparing her to zenyatta. The reason everyone holds her race record last year to such a historic level is because she was a 3yo filly. If she digresses or doesn't get any better at 4 yo it definitely takes some of the luster away from her accomplishments being that she was only 3. Do you not agree with this?

[FenceBored]

And don't make it like I'm the one who's bringing up rachel out of the clear blue sky here. Just read the thread and you'll see.

As for her ceiling last year, I think with the right pace setup and 9 furlongs or less should it would have been a great race. A fast pace or longer than 9 furlongs and I'd make zenyatta 3/5

But my ceiling comment really has nothing to do with comparing her to zenyatta. The reason everyone holds her race record last year to such a historic level is because she was a 3yo filly. If she digresses or doesn't get any better at 4 yo it definitely takes some of the luster away from her accomplishments being that she was only 3. Do you not agree with this?

Why should it? Her 3yo year is done, set. What she accomplished then was accomplished then.

[Dahoss9698]

I think zenyatta's next start should be against males (not that it will shut up her critics as they will just find another excuse to hate) but some of the crap spewed by the rachel cronies in this thread is laughable.

They compare zenyatta to males when it comes to carrying weight to discredit her but then they wax poetic about rachel's woodward where she was GETTING 8 LBS against horses she was far better than.

And also I guess the "it's a long season be patient" goes out the window when discussing zenyatta's schedule, it's then "pedal to the medal from here till november"

By the way when it rachel racing again exactly? I know zenyatta's on track performances this year pale in comparison to those bullet workout's rachel's been running that has set the racing world on fire :lol:

As usual you have completely missed the point of my post. You are unable to discuss anything without making it a Rachel vs Zenyatta battle.

Spalding No already explained why I was bringing the weight issue into it. My point of bringing up a horse like Skip Away is because people have (in this thread and in others) declared Zenyatta one of, if not the best of all time.

I've put up Cigar and Skip Away's lifetime pp's in this thread. I realize when comparing horses from different generations it all comes down to opinions. But Cigar and Skip Away was only 15 or so years ago. I know the game is different now, but look at their pp's, then Zenyatta's. Then look at who they were beating (and getting beat by) and look at who Zenyatta has beat. I don't know how they can be seen as anything close to similar.

Zenyatta is probably a better dancer. But when you look at on track accomplishments, I don't see how she can be compared.

[cj]

Zenyatta is probably a better dancer. But when you look at on track accomplishments, I don't see how she can be compared.

Awesome line!

[Cratos]

And he met his demise, at the farm...from a broken leg. Ruffian was an accident waiting to happen...it's amazing she lasted as long as she did...she would have been retired after her 3 yr old season...because she was so 'fragile'...her race with Foolish Pleasure had nothing to do with what happened...and everyone at Belmont, at that time, watching her gallop in the mornings knew she wasn't right...only a matter of time, and unfortunatley, it happened at the worst possible time.

But she was absolutely poetry in motion when she ran. For horses that I have seen, I rank only Buckpasser equal to her in looks.

[ghostyapper]

As usual you have completely missed the point of my post. You are unable to discuss anything without making it a Rachel vs Zenyatta battle.

Anyone with eyes can see who's the one who brings up rachel in this thread yet you're accusing others of turning it into a rachel vs zenyatta thread? Winter triangle brought why zenyatta is so special to so many people and you of course had to bring up rachel's woodward where she bravely beat macho again by a head getting 8 lbs at 1/9 odds.

Then again I'd expect nothing less from someone who gave us the conspiracy theory about zardana missing the apple blossom because her connections know she would beat zenyatta :lol: :lol:

[Dahoss9698]

Anyone with eyes can see who's the one who brings up rachel in this thread yet you're accusing others of turning it into a rachel vs zenyatta thread? Winter triangle brought why zenyatta is so special to so many people and you of course had to bring up rachel's woodward where she bravely beat macho again by a head getting 8 lbs at 1/9 odds.

Then again I'd expect nothing less from someone who gave us the conspiracy theory about zardana missing the apple blossom because her connections know she would beat zenyatta :lol: :lol:

And I get accused of reading more into people's posts....:bang:

It's pretty pointless discussing anything with you. I have yet to see you have an original thought or opinion on a race, period. It's the same Zenyatta vs Rachel stuff.

I thought it was pretty obvious why I brought up Rachel's Woodward. I also brought up two other performances before that. I wasn't declaring them any kind of all time performances. Just mentioning efforts that reinforced why I love this game.

I also did NOT infer what you have said in your last paragraph. Again, it was pretty obvious what I said and why I was saying it. I guess it's easier to make it up or twist words.

Then again, I'd expect nothing else from someone who has nothing much to offer but a recycled arguement that ended 4 months ago.

[ghostyapper]

I also did NOT infer what you have said in your last paragraph. Again, it was pretty obvious what I said and why I was saying it. I guess it's easier to make it up or twist words.

They are avoiding Zenyatta. That's my opinion. Not because they are afraid to run against her. Because they are afraid to beat her.

Yea I guess I read that one wrong. :confused:

[Dahoss9698]

Yea I guess I read that one wrong. :confused:

It's semantics, but here is what YOU just said.



Then again I'd expect nothing less from someone who gave us the conspiracy theory about zardana missing the apple blossom because her connections know she would beat zenyatta :lol: :lol:

Nowhere did I say they "knew" they were going to beat Zenyatta. I was inferring they didn't want to beat her. Two totally different things.

Imagine Zenyatta being defeated, by another filly in the same barn? Yeah, that would go over well and I said as much in different threads.

[ghostyapper]

It's semantics, but here is what YOU just said.



Nowhere did I say they "knew" they were going to beat Zenyatta. I was inferring they didn't want to beat her. Two totally different things.

Imagine Zenyatta being defeated, by another filly in the same barn? Yeah, that would go over well and I said as much in different threads.

Okay thanks for clarifying. So you stand by the belief that zardana did not run in the apple blossom because her connections were afraid she would beat zenyatta?

[Dahoss9698]

Okay thanks for clarifying. So you stand by the belief that zardana did not run in the apple blossom because her connections were afraid she would beat zenyatta?

Yes. I think she was held out of the race in order to preserve the great one's "legacy".

Now answer a question for me. At any point in the next year are you going to offer an opinion, or insight into a race, or are you going to fixate on the Rachel vs Zenyatta thing that is nonexistant at this point?

[ghostyapper]

Yes. I think she was held out of the race in order to preserve the great one's "legacy".

Now answer a question for me. At any point in the next year are you going to offer an opinion, or insight into a race, or are you going to fixate on the Rachel vs Zenyatta thing that is nonexistant at this point?

Great now that we have you on record as holding such a belief we can officially make you certifiable. At least now people can see what they are dealing with here.

As for your question if I were you I'd focus more on coming up with some new insane and outrageous opinions rather than worrying about me and my plans for the message board over the next year. You set the bar pretty high with the Zardana Conspiracy but with some time and maybe "supplements" I think you can do even better. :eek:

[Dahoss9698]

Great now that we have you on record as holding such a belief we can officially make you certifiable. At least now people can see what they are dealing with here.

As for your question if I were you I'd focus more on coming up with some new insane and outrageous opinions rather than worrying about me and my plans for the message board over the next year. You set the bar pretty high with the Zardana Conspiracy but with some time and maybe "supplements" I think you can do even better. :eek:

I didn't think you could offer up anything original.

Keep fighting that non existant fight. :ThmbUp:

[letswastemoney]

From the beginning, I've said they were afraid of entering Zardana because she might win.

She's a different horse on dirt, and although it doesn't mean she's invincible, she's definitely faster and and better overall than her synthetic form.

But there are very few people here that believe this theory. It's possible that I shouldn't just make this assumption off of one American dirt start, but knowing she beat a filly in Brazil who once competed on even terms with Cocoa Beach in a different race convinced me.

[Nikki1997]

And he met his demise, at the farm...from a broken leg. Ruffian was an accident waiting to happen...it's amazing she lasted as long as she did...she would have been retired after her 3 yr old season...because she was so 'fragile'...her race with Foolish Pleasure had nothing to do with what happened...and everyone at Belmont, at that time, watching her gallop in the mornings knew she wasn't right...only a matter of time, and unfortunatley, it happened at the worst possible time.


You were doing fine until the " everyone at Belmont at that time watching her gallop in the mornings knew she wasn't right " .

That is simply untrue and has no verification from eyewitness people with credibility nor is it supported anywhere in literature .

I have strong past connections with the backstretch at Belmont and the NYRA tracks, and I have an historian friend that was given a rare interview with Whiteley shortly before his death as well as knowing trackside personal that saw her regularly .

That she was predisposed to fractures is certain, the rest you suggest is far from it . You may have been around as I was when inane soundness gossip was bandied about before Secretariat ran in the Derby--tendons , ankles, and other twaddle--at least that was heard--and quickly proved to be just what it was--gossip .

I have never heard what you suggest.

Ruffian had lovely, floating action until the end, and any deviation would have been noted somewhere and by someone who was there .

It was not .

[Nikki1997]

From the beginning, I've said they were afraid of entering Zardana because she might win.

She's a different horse on dirt, and although it doesn't mean she's invincible, she's definitely faster and and better overall than her synthetic form.

But there are very few people here that believe this theory. It's possible that I shouldn't just make this assumption off of one American dirt start, but knowing she beat a filly in Brazil who once competed on even terms with Cocoa Beach in a different race convinced me.


You are making that assumption because she beat Rachel .

It would not even be an issue had Rachel not been in the race .

That she was competitive with Cocoa Beach is admirable, but as it has been shown--if you like such comparisons--Cocoa Beach was not terribly competitive with Zenyatta .

I assure you Shirreffs knows what he has, and there is obviously a reason few people believe this theory .

There are those that thought Life Is Sweet would beat her as well, and there are those that believe the earth is flat .

I do not believe Zenyatta is qualified to even be mentioned as the best of all time as yet , NOR the best mare of all time as yet , but these theories and attempts to build cases against her are just weak .

Carry on .

[chickenhead]

I've never understood this sudden fascination with Zardana after catching a short Rachel.

How is Zardana all that interesting for running a 101 Beyer? A 101 is now interesting and notable? There have been multiple faster filly dirt route races so far this year. For all anyone knows Zenyatta would have had to run a 102 to win the Apple Blossom had she been there, still quite a bit slower than she ran in her 4th lifetime start around the same track. Since running faster than that previously didn't impress anyone, I doubt the 102 would have, either.

How bout we find out if Zardana is actually a fast horse before we worry about Zenyatta ducking her vis a vis Shirreffs. Based on past performances, apparent ability, or Beyer Speed Figures, he'd seem more likely to assume Zenyatta would kick the crap out of her. He might be wrong, but he needs a reason to think he might be, first.

[Nikki1997]

I agree with the listed series of events, but you do leave off over-exertion. Over-exertion can lead to injury too. It is not silly to believe a female horse can overt-exert itself against a male horse.

Sorry--do not buy the over exertion against male theory .

Any horse can over exert itself against same sex, opposite sex, and running by itself .

[Dahoss9698]

I assure you Shirreffs knows what he has, and there is obviously a reason few people believe this theory .



Not that I'm doubting Shirreffs ability as a horseman, because he's tremendous. But, sometimes horses surprise you. Do you think Bill Mott knew what he had with Cigar at first?

I'm not comparing Zardana to Cigar. But I don't think it's a stretch to suggest Zardana is a better horse on dirt than she is on turf/synthetic. It took them an awful long time to get Zardana to dirt and I realize this is mainly because they are in synth land. But I also know they have no plans to go back to turf/synth so they seem to think she's better on dirt as well.

[Dahoss9698]

How bout we find out if Zardana is actually a fast horse before we worry about Zenyatta ducking her vis a vis Shirreffs. Based on past performances, apparent ability, or Beyer Speed Figures, he'd seem more likely to assume Zenyatta would kick the crap out of her. He might be wrong, but he needs a reason to think he might be, first.

Agreed. But I do think it would be interesting to see if Zardana would have been in the Apple Blossom had she been trained by someone other than Shirreffs. He had no problem running Zenyatta against Life Is Sweet last year (who could blame him?) They didn't seem as sure about running Zardana against her.

It's fun to speculate, but until we see them on the track, it's only that. For the record, I think Zenyatta is a better horse than Zardana. But I also don't think it's outlandish to think she could beat Zenyatta with the right set up.

[letswastemoney]

You are making that assumption because she beat Rachel .

It would not even be an issue had Rachel not been in the race .

That she was competitive with Cocoa Beach is admirable, but as it has been shown--if you like such comparisons--Cocoa Beach was not terribly competitive with Zenyatta .

I assure you Shirreffs knows what he has, and there is obviously a reason few people believe this theory .

There are those that thought Life Is Sweet would beat her as well, and there are those that believe the earth is flat .

I do not believe Zenyatta is qualified to even be mentioned as the best of all time as yet , NOR the best mare of all time as yet , but these theories and attempts to build cases against her are just weak .

Carry on .
Cocoa Beach is a significantly better horse than the fillies that were beating Zardana on synthetics and turf.

(the 2008 version of Cocoa Beach would have been undefeated in every synthetic race Zardana ran in that didn't have Zenyatta)

Zardana improved on dirt, while Rachel needed her first start back. Those 2 factors led to Zardana winning. (imo)

I'm not saying Zardana is a world beater, but she's not the 3rd stringer (on dirt) that people are making her out to be. Zenyatta fans think that a cupcake 3rd stringer beat Rachel because Zardana lost a lot of races in So Cal, but I just don't believe this to be true.

And if Zardana is better on dirt than synth, regardless of how good she is compared to Zenyatta, then Rachel's first start back doesn't look that bad.

[Nikki1997]

Not that I'm doubting Shirreffs ability as a horseman, because he's tremendous. But, sometimes horses surprise you. Do you think Bill Mott knew what he had with Cigar at first?

I'm not comparing Zardana to Cigar. But I don't think it's a stretch to suggest Zardana is a better horse on dirt than she is on turf/synthetic. It took them an awful long time to get Zardana to dirt and I realize this is mainly because they are in synth land. But I also know they have no plans to go back to turf/synth so they seem to think she's better on dirt as well.

I agree that it is obvious that Zardana is better on dirt, but I do not agree that there was any fear of ducking her with Zenyatta--none at all .

Of course, the undefeated record is something to preserve, but if they piut it on the line in the BCC last year--first time at 10 f, fiirst time against males, it defies all logic that Zardana in the Apple Blossom was a subject of concern .

In fact, it appears that it was thought correctly that a possibly short Rachel was an easier target--foxy thinking if you ask me--and it worked .

Zenyatta also faced LIS from her own barn on a surface that LIS prefers three times .

The Wygods pulled the trigger on the unsuccesful hatrick, and I assure you that Shirreffs did not lose any sleep over the potential outcome .

If you can not see the disdainful ease with which this big mare lazily runs by her competition--good , bad, and ugly--the identical way, it is a shame .

I have great respect for Rachel, a fast quality animal, but I have been watching races, working with Tbreds, and riding for decades, and I have seen many of the true greats, but I have never seen a unique package quite like Zenyatta .

[Nikki1997]

Cocoa Beach is a significantly better horse than the fillies that were beating Zardana on synthetics and turf.

(the 2008 version of Cocoa Beach would have been undefeated in every synthetic race Zardana ran in that didn't have Zenyatta)

Zardana improved on dirt, while Rachel needed her first start back. Those 2 factors led to Zardana winning. (imo)

I'm not saying Zardana is a world beater, but she's not the 3rd stringer (on dirt) that people are making her out to be. Zenyatta fans think that a cupcake 3rd stringer beat Rachel because Zardana lost a lot of races in So Cal, but I just don't believe this to be true.

And if Zardana is better on dirt than synth, regardless of how good she is compared to Zenyatta, then Rachel's first start back doesn't look that bad.
Do not lump me in with other Zenyatta people .

I never said Rachel's first race back was bad, nor did I say a cupcake 3d stringer beat her .

[Dahoss9698]

I have great respect for Rachel, a fast quality animal, but I have been watching races, working with Tbreds, and riding for decades, and I have seen many of the true greats, but I have never seen a unique package quite like Zenyatta .

You say not to lump you in with the Zenyatta people, but then post this.

I don't think anyone was really afraid of Life Is Sweet last year. Especially not the same guy that trains her. I doubt LIS was fully cranked in the Zenyatta Stakes, as Shirreffs is about as good as there is at pointing to a race. The Zenyatta (Lady's Secret) wasn't the goal. The Ladies Classic was.

[chickenhead]

as Shirreffs is about as good as there is at pointing to a race.

exactly why I want to see Zardana run again. I imagine Shirreffs took some special glee in taking Rachel down with Zardana, who knows how long he was planning that. I think it's dangerous to assume she can run any better.

I imagine he might have run her in the Apple Blossom if Rachel had been there, A) she might have been useful to make first run at Rachel and help wear her down B) A 10X bigger purse to get a piece of.

without a kind of confluence of events like that happening again I kind of doubt they'll be running together at all.

[Nikki1997]

You say not to lump you in with the Zenyatta people, but then post this.

I don't think anyone was really afraid of Life Is Sweet last year. Especially not the same guy that trains her. I doubt LIS was fully cranked in the Zenyatta Stakes, as Shirreffs is about as good as there is at pointing to a race. The Zenyatta (Lady's Secret) wasn't the goal. The Ladies Classic was.

Firstly I was not posting to you .

Secondly, what I posted does not refute my claim that Rachel deserves respect, but I never saw anything like Zenyatta .

There is no leverage or disrespect--no trashing of one to aggrandize the other .

You just look for things that are not there .

One can respect both, but prefer another .

[Dahoss9698]

Firstly I was not posting to you .

Secondly, what I posted does not refute my claim that Rachel deserves respect, but I never saw anything like Zenyatta .

There is no leverage or disrespect--no trashing of one to aggrandize the other .

You just look for things that are not there .

One can respect both, but prefer another .

Huh?

I never said you did any of those things. Look, on one hand we get the stories of all of these greats you've seen and your school attendance history. Then you've never seen anything like Zenyatta.

Whatever....the entire conversation is tired.

[born2ride]

I agree that it is obvious that Zardana is better on dirt, but I do not agree that there was any fear of ducking her with Zenyatta--none at all .

Of course, the undefeated record is something to preserve, but if they piut it on the line in the BCC last year--first time at 10 f, fiirst time against males, it defies all logic that Zardana in the Apple Blossom was a subject of concern .

In fact, it appears that it was thought correctly that a possibly short Rachel was an easier target--foxy thinking if you ask me--and it worked .

Zenyatta also faced LIS from her own barn on a surface that LIS prefers three times .

The Wygods pulled the trigger on the unsuccesful hatrick, and I assure you that Shirreffs did not lose any sleep over the potential outcome .

If you can not see the disdainful ease with which this big mare lazily runs by her competition--good , bad, and ugly--the identical way, it is a shame .

I have great respect for Rachel, a fast quality animal, but I have been watching races, working with Tbreds, and riding for decades, and I have seen many of the true greats, but I have never seen a unique package quite like Zenyatta .

Putting Zenyatta's win streak on the line in the BCC was less of a risk than putting it on the line in the AB against Zardana had she been entered. The Classic was her first time at 10f and against males, had she lost Shirreffs could've chalked the loss up to either of these "firsts". The AB is a whole different animal, it's at a distance Shirreffs wanted and it's against females. Zenyatta is brought back from retirement to run another year and a loss in the AB would have been far more of a blemish/embarassement than a loss in the Classic.

And no I don't think the perfect record is something to preserve, especially if it comes at a cost of running in soft races.

[PaceAdvantage]

I know the game has changed, but not that much. The reason I bring this up, is people are saying Zenyatta is one of the best of all time. When you compare her to the best of the last 15 years she doesn't come close.

That's not to say she isn't a very, very good horse. But I sometimes wonder just how much perspective people have when making "all time" declarations like we continue to see in regards to Zenyatta.I know I'm late to this, but I just want to say that I agree 100%...perfectly stated...

[ghostyapper]

You say not to lump you in with the Zenyatta people, but then post this.

I don't think anyone was really afraid of Life Is Sweet last year. Especially not the same guy that trains her. I doubt LIS was fully cranked in the Zenyatta Stakes, as Shirreffs is about as good as there is at pointing to a race. The Zenyatta (Lady's Secret) wasn't the goal. The Ladies Classic was.

Just can't win with you. Zenyatta beats her stablemate 3 separate times last year. This was a stablemate that was good enough to compete against males and was pointing towards the dubai wc this year. She also smoked the ladies classic field in the bc but "nobody was afraid of her" while zardana is now supposedly this 6yo diamond in the rough.

Like I said had rachel never run in the fg race and zardana ran in the ab, she would be treated by the drones as just another average horse in a weak field that Zenyatta beat.

[ghostyapper]

And if Zardana is better on dirt than synth, regardless of how good she is compared to Zenyatta, then Rachel's first start back doesn't look that bad.

The fan club likes to think this but her connections actions and words speak a lot louder than your opinion. The performance was bad enough to immediately scratch her from the ab and also cancel whatever changes they were trying to make to her style. And by the way when is her next race? That race was 2 months ago and still no 2nd race or even a mention of where they will run next?

Guess that loss to the champion Zardana was worse than you want to believe.

[Hedevar]

I thought this thread had run its course after last night, but I guess I was wrong. After being called silly and sexist I still have not changed my mind. First class fillies and mares should not campaign against their generations top males. I believe Zenyatta is a great race mare but that a series of races against the best males racing would be an error.

[Dahoss9698]

Just can't win with you. Zenyatta beats her stablemate 3 separate times last year. This was a stablemate that was good enough to compete against males and was pointing towards the dubai wc this year. She also smoked the ladies classic field in the bc but "nobody was afraid of her" while zardana is now supposedly this 6yo diamond in the rough.

Like I said had rachel never run in the fg race and zardana ran in the ab, she would be treated by the drones as just another average horse in a weak field that Zenyatta beat.

Still waiting for an original thought or opinion.

[Nikki1997]

Putting Zenyatta's win streak on the line in the BCC was less of a risk than putting it on the line in the AB against Zardana had she been entered. The Classic was her first time at 10f and against males, had she lost Shirreffs could've chalked the loss up to either of these "firsts". The AB is a whole different animal, it's at a distance Shirreffs wanted and it's against females. Zenyatta is brought back from retirement to run another year and a loss in the AB would have been far more of a blemish/embarassement than a loss in the Classic.

And no I don't think the perfect record is something to preserve, especially if it comes at a cost of running in soft races.


I don't think a perfect record is something to preserve by ONLY running in soft races--and nowhere did I say that .

Based on the above philosophy for Zenyatta, you should be embarrassed for another horse that beat all those stellar G1 males and then got knocked off by a non G1 female, but you have all the excuses for that one--please do not reiterate--they have been belched forth multiply all over the internet .

Zardana is an issue for you because she beat Raschel--that is your mantra --you own it .

[Nikki1997]

I thought this thread had run its course after last night, but I guess I was wrong. After being called silly and sexist I still have not changed my mind. First class fillies and mares should not campaign against their generations top males. I believe Zenyatta is a great race mare but that a series of races against the best males racing would be an error.

No I called your PREMISE silly and sexist---you I don't know ..

As far as running females against the best males---it is done regularly every where but here, and was done frequently here in the past .

This was done here because there was a limit to the female exclusive big money races .

Before Pretty Polly , Sceptre, Regret, Busher, Gallorette, Genuine Risk etc, there were females in the 1800s that did this all the time .

I would not expect you to know who Fashion, Ruthless, Miss Woodford, and the nearly unbeatable Black Maria were .

The last mentioned ran for five years or so before she lost, and Andrew Jackson went to his death regretting he could never beat her .

As I said, I called YOU no names, just questioned some sexist and silly thoughts .

And here I thought we came a long way baby ..

[gm10]

You say not to lump you in with the Zenyatta people, but then post this.

I don't think anyone was really afraid of Life Is Sweet last year. Especially not the same guy that trains her. I doubt LIS was fully cranked in the Zenyatta Stakes, as Shirreffs is about as good as there is at pointing to a race. The Zenyatta (Lady's Secret) wasn't the goal. The Ladies Classic was.

That's very hypothetical. I doubt Zenyatta would have run in the Classic if STS had showed up. And then LIS may not have gone to the Distaff either.

[born2ride]

I don't think a perfect record is something to preserve by ONLY running in soft races--and nowhere did I say that .

Based on the above philosophy for Zenyatta, you should be embarrassed for another horse that beat all those stellar G1 males and then got knocked off by a non G1 female, but you have all the excuses for that one--please do not reiterate--they have been belched forth multiply all over the internet .

Zardana is an issue for you because she beat Raschel--that is your mantra --you own it .

Well, if the "excuses" have been belched forth multiple times, based on the content of your post, it's obvious there's something about why Rachel lost that you're not grasping.

Zardana is not an issue for me, and no that is not my mantra. Please don't tell me what to think or tell me how I feel. In return, I'll do the same for you.

[BluegrassProf]

I have been watching races, working with Tbreds, and riding for decades, and I have seen many of the true greatsSure...you and about 1500 other folks on PA.

Perhaps it's an unintentional byproduct of the debate here, but as a casual reader, the whole "I know more than youz" phallis-measuring gig is a bit tired. Perhaps we pull up our pants and move on... :) :ThmbUp:

Ye gods. Is it Derbytime yet?


Unrelated note: looks like RA likely for La Troienne...all goes wll in the run-up, good times in L-ville to be had:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/56641/rachel-alexandra-likely-for-la-troienne

[PaceAdvantage]

Let's hope this is early enough notice for some of the Rachel haters... :lol:

[bisket]

Of course there are all different types of "fans". You make it sound like hard core racing buffs don't appreciate horses.

We do. But we appreciate seeing them run. It's horse racing....not horse personality or horse dancing.

Watching Holy Bull dig in and hang on in the Travers....seeing Da Hoss put his head down and come back to beat Hawksley Hill...watching Rachel Alexandra lay it all out in the stretch of the Woodward, with the grandstand shaking from people cheering so loud. Then seeing her get a standing ovation as she made her way back to the winners circle. Those were goose bump moments for me, a racing buff.

What is wrong with being a hard core racing buff?
so your admitting she hit a beyer of plus 110 without even running... sounds as if you know the truth already. she's faster than anything else running today. maybe your not as deaf, dumb, and blind as i think you are? :lol:

[bisket]

if careless jewel doesn't run rachel runs. its that simple.

[PaceAdvantage]

so your admitting she hit a beyer of plus 110 without even running... sounds as if you know the truth already. she's faster than anything else running today. maybe your not as deaf, dumb, and blind as i think you are? :lol:112 is her tops. Let me know when she finally runs a fast one.

[GaryG]

maybe your not as deaf, dumb, and blind as i think you are? :lol:I hear that he sure plays a mean pinball.....sorry for the digression.

[Dahoss9698]

so your admitting she hit a beyer of plus 110 without even running... sounds as if you know the truth already. she's faster than anything else running today. maybe your not as deaf, dumb, and blind as i think you are? :lol:

What are you talking about? Seriously, where did I say anything about anyone running a 110 plus without even running? What does your post have to do with my post?

For the record, you are as dumb, if not dumber than I think you are.

[Dahoss9698]

if careless jewel doesn't run rachel runs. its that simple.

This is the kind of post that makes me laugh. I already showed you an article where they say Careless Jewel is running either way. Now today they have committed Rachel to the race.

But Bisket knows what we all don't. You can't help but be amused.

[bisket]

you said you wanted to see her really run? meaning she's yet to actually run in a race, and she's been credited with plus 110 beyer. does a+b= b+a? :p

[Dahoss9698]

I hear that he sure plays a mean pinball.....sorry for the digression.

Humor isn't your strong suit. Stick to getting chased by Boss Hog in the General Lee.

[Dahoss9698]

you said you wanted to see her really run? meaning she's yet to actually run in a race, and she's been credited with plus 110 beyer. does a+b= b+a? :p

Umm, no I didn't. Where in the post you quoted did I say I wanted to see Zenyatta really run?

[bisket]

did you not say you appreciate watching them run.... i guess i took that as meaning you've yet to see zen run... you said it not i. we all know your in the closet :lol:

[Dahoss9698]

did you not say you appreciate watching them run.... i guess i took that as meaning you've yet to see zen run... you said it not i. we all know your in the closet :lol:

What is the last grade you completed in school? Did it at least have a "1" in front of it?

[bisket]

What is the last grade you completed in school? Did it at least have a "1" in front of it?
that doesn't answer the post..... i'm really enjoying this

[PaceAdvantage]

i'm really enjoying thisWhy?

[PaceAdvantage]

Humor isn't your strong suit. Stick to getting chased by Boss Hog in the General Lee.This guy takes no prisoners... :lol:

[bisket]

because i have a twisted sense humor, and know this clown doesn't have a clue

[Dahoss9698]

that doesn't answer the post..... i'm really enjoying this

I'm starting to think it's 5th or 6th grade. Am I close?

[bisket]

I'm starting to think it's 5th or 6th grade. Am I close?
still no answer?

[Dahoss9698]

still no answer?

That settles it, 3rd grade.

[PaceAdvantage]

because i have a twisted sense humor, and know this clown doesn't have a clueHe has a clue.

Now what?

[bisket]

That settles it, 3rd grade.
still haven't answered..... i guess you don't have one. your boring me.

[PaceAdvantage]

your boring me.Already? You just typed that you were "really enjoying this."

Oh well, at least you're making it easier for me to put this thread out of its misery.

[bisket]

Already? You just typed that you were "really enjoying this."

Oh well, at least you're making it easier for me to put this thread out of its misery.
i understand someone has to stick up for him.

[PaceAdvantage]

i understand someone has to stick up for him.Saying someone has a clue is sticking up for them? It's obvious the guy has a clue...come on man...work with me here...

[ghostyapper]

It's obvious the guy has a clue.

Obvious to who? Certainly not anyone that has a clue

[Dahoss9698]

still haven't answered..... i guess you don't have one. your boring me.

I'm not sure what kind of an answer you're looking for. I'm not sure why you read what you did in my post, but at no point was I talking about Zenyatta. I've seen her run. I've said she's very, very good more than a few times.

I said I enjoy watching horses run. How you can twist that into what you did is beyond even me. I'm glad I've entertained....now made you bored.

Hopefully this has appeased (have someone explain what that means) you and we can move on from here.

[bisket]

Saying someone has a clue is sticking up for them? It's obvious the guy has a clue...come on man...work with me here...
i have no respect for someone that runs around message boards bullying posters that are eager to learn the game. this clown consistently stalks winter, and others, and disparages every little thing that said. thats not someone who strikes me as experienced and confident in what they are doing. it strikes me as someone thats compensating.... :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Obvious to who? Certainly not anyone that has a clueYou may not like his delivery (as some obviously don't like yours), but to say Dahoss is clueless, after all of his years posting here on and off...either you're deliberately ignorant, or you've never read any of his contributions.

[PaceAdvantage]

i have no respect for someone that runs around message boards bullying posters that are eager to learn the game. this clown consistently stalks winter, and others, and disparages every little thing that said. thats not someone who strikes me as experienced and confident in what they are doing. it strikes me as someone thats compensating.... :lol:That doesn't mean he's clueless. In fact, if he's correcting other people's mistakes, that makes him the opposite of clueless, does it not?

[bisket]

i don't see where anyone made a mistake that needs correcting.... i guess thats my point

[ghostyapper]

You may not like his delivery (as some obviously don't like yours), but to say Dahoss is clueless, after all of his years posting here on and off...either you're deliberately ignorant, or you've never read any of his contributions.

I read the most recent one about the zardana conspiracy of holding her out of the ab so she wouldn't beat zenyatta

That was enough for me, don't need to see any more.

[PaceAdvantage]

I read the most recent one about the zardana conspiracy of holding her out of the ab so she wouldn't beat zenyatta

That was enough for me, don't need to see any more.That makes a ton of sense. If only we all judged people here on one and only one post.

And why is that theory so off the wall? If you trained both Zenyatta and Zardana, and you had the option of having Zenyatta race in a Zardana-free Apple Blossom, you wouldn't take that option?

No matter what you think, Zardana in the AB just makes it that much tougher for Zenyatta. And we all know trainers and owners are ALL ABOUT running their horses in the TOUGHEST spots possible...especially the folks calling the shots for Zenyatta... :rolleyes:

[Dahoss9698]

Bisket and Ghostyapper. That's quite the tag team.

Dumb and Dumber.

[ghostyapper]

No matter what you think, Zardana in the AB just makes it that much tougher for Zenyatta. And we all know trainers and owners are ALL ABOUT running their horses in the TOUGHEST spots possible...especially the folks calling the shots for Zenyatta... :rolleyes:

Yup I guess there was no way to avoid them entering Life is sweet and Zenyatta in the same race 3 separate times last year. But of course we know life is sweet was nothing special, all she did was compete against males and smoke the bc ladies classic.

The 6yo zardana with career earnings of under 500k is the one they really need to watch out for :lol:

[Dahoss9698]

Yup I guess there was no way to avoid them entering Life is sweet and Zenyatta in the same race 3 separate times last year. But of course we know life is sweet was nothing special, all she did was compete against males and smoke the bc ladies classic.

The 6yo zardana with career earnings of under 500k is the one they really need to watch out for :lol:

That one really bothers you huh?

Dude, who really cares at this point? I just want to see them run. I don't care how or when it happens, but it would be great to see Rachel, Zenyatta, Zardana and Careless Jewel line up in the same gate together. That's it.

[the little guy]

This is a stronger field of fillies and mares than Zenyatta has ever faced.

[chickenhead]

This is a stronger field of fillies and mares than Zenyatta has ever faced.

who else is in it besides CJ and Z, I haven't heard?

[the little guy]

who else is in it besides CJ and Z, I haven't heard?

No idea.

[chickenhead]

doesn't matter, just wondering who might be in there to run late.

If CJ is ready to go, she'll be a handful. Very nice filly.

[Kimsus]

This is a freaking long thread to catch up on so excuse me if someone has had the foresight to say this already, BUT to me it is more likely Zenyatta will be in the Foster than the Vanity. We will see, but I am taking Moss at his word this year and if they don't choose the Foster she will be back here for the Classic anyway if she is healthy.

[Spalding No!]

This is a freaking long thread to catch up on so excuse me if someone has had the foresight to say this already, BUT to me it is more likely Zenyatta will be in the Foster than the Vanity. We will see, but I am taking Moss at his word this year and if they don't choose the Foster she will be back here for the Classic anyway if she is healthy.

Right now, by all appearances, its the Vanity.

Last week on the DRF, Shireffs mentioned the Stephen Foster, and crossed off the Vanity because of concerns with the weight assignment.

This week on the DRF, Shireffs strongly suggested the Vanity would be the next start, and crossed off the Stephen Foster and any other out-of-town race because "she has to run at home some time".

Also, there will be bobble-heads.

[Cadillakin]

This is a stronger field of fillies and mares than Zenyatta has ever faced.
It's kind of hard to suggest that a 3 year old filly running in races restricted to her own age group has superiority over older mares until she has had some success against them.. But I see you're attempting to do it, anyway..

Last time we saw Careless Jewel, she struggled in about a furlong behind the tomato-can, Life is Sweet.. And we all know the horses Zenyatta beats are tomato cans.. Right?

You're suggesting to the group that Zardana -with **Zero** Grade1 wins and Careless Jewel - with just ONE age restricted Grade I win to her credit - are collectively more accomplished than the field that Zenyatta faced in the 2008 Ladies? The field that included, Champion Ginger Punch, (6 Grade I wins) Music Note (5 Grade I wins- two as older mare) Cocoa Beach (2 Grade I wins), Grade I winner Hysterical Lady, Grade I winner Carriage Trail, and Grade I winner Santa Teresita?

6 mares, one a champion, with 16 Grade I wins between them are collectively inferior to two mares with ONE age-restricted Grade I win between them?

That's funny.. You're kidding, right?

I know there are a lot of guys here that will agree with any statement that demeans Zenyatta, but comparing the group above to Zardana and Careless Jewell, with her single Grade I age-restricted win.. well, to put it mildly, it's a joke..

[NTamm1215]

It's kind of hard to suggest that a 3 year old filly running in races restricted to her own age group has superiority over older mares until she has had some success against them.. But I see you're attempting to do it, anyway..

Last time we saw Careless Jewel, she struggled in about a furlong behind the tomato-can, Life is Sweet.. And we all know the horses Zenyatta beats are tomato cans.. Right?

You're suggesting to the group that Zardana -with **Zero** Grade1 wins and Careless Jewel - with just ONE age restricted Grade I win to her credit - are collectively more accomplished than the field that Zenyatta faced in the 2008 Ladies? The field that included, Champion Ginger Punch, (6 Grade I wins) Music Note (5 Grade I wins- two as older mare) Cocoa Beach (2 Grade I wins), Grade I winner Hysterical Lady, Grade I winner Carriage Trail, and Grade I winner Santa Teresita?

6 mares, one a champion, with 16 Grade I wins between them are collectively inferior to two mares with ONE age-restricted Grade I win between them?

That's funny.. You're kidding, right?

I know there are a lot of guys here that will agree with any statement that demeans Zenyatta, but comparing the group above to Zardana and Careless Jewell, with her single Grade I age-restricted win.. well, to put it mildly, it's a joke..

Santa Teresita never won a Grade I. In fact, her only stakes win prior to the 2008 Breeders' Cup was in the restricted Santa Lucia in April of that year.

As for the rest of what you wrote, you seem to fully equate dirt and synthetics together and ignore the notion that horses prefer one over the other. That keeps you from recognizing that of the 12 Grade I races that had been won by Carriage Trail, Cocoa Beach, Hystericalady, Ginger Punch, and Music Note prior to teh 2008 BC exactly 1 of them were earned on a synthetic surface.

NT

[Spalding No!]

Santa Teresita never won a Grade I. In fact, her only stakes win prior to the 2008 Breeders' Cup was in the restricted Santa Lucia in April of that year.
NT

Santa Teresita won the Santa Maria, a Grade 1, the following year.

[the little guy]

Santa Teresita never won a Grade I. In fact, her only stakes win prior to the 2008 Breeders' Cup was in the restricted Santa Lucia in April of that year.

As for the rest of what you wrote, you seem to fully equate dirt and synthetics together and ignore the notion that horses prefer one over the other. That keeps you from recognizing that of the 12 Grade I races that had been won by Carriage Trail, Cocoa Beach, Hystericalady, Ginger Punch, and Music Note prior to teh 2008 BC exactly 1 of them were earned on a synthetic surface.

NT


And to further your point, the only Grade 1 winner on synth was Carriage Trail.

[NTamm1215]

Santa Teresita won the Santa Maria, a Grade 1, the following year.

OK, I should have said prior to teh 08 BC. I think the conversation should center on what was done prior to the 08 BC because how are you supposed to fairly compare Careless Jewel and Zardana when their careers are still ongoing?

NT

[Cadillakin]

Santa Teresita never won a Grade I. In fact, her only stakes win prior to the 2008 Breeders' Cup was in the restricted Santa Lucia in April of that year.

As for the rest of what you wrote, you seem to fully equate dirt and synthetics together and ignore the notion that horses prefer one over the other. That keeps you from recognizing that of the 12 Grade I races that had been won by Carriage Trail, Cocoa Beach, Hystericalady, Ginger Punch, and Music Note prior to teh 2008 BC exactly 1 of them were earned on a synthetic surface.

NT
True enough what you said about Santa Teresita.. Her Grade I win came after the BC Ladies.. Neverthless, it denotes that she had good inherent quality.

My friend, if you want to pretend that racing on synthetics, doesn't count.. that's up to you.. But if a horse and his connections are going to line up in the gate, and take a shot at glory, all the while knowing the conditions, I don't think you need to make excuses for them.. If they're good enough to compete, and their chances are well-considered, I don't think you should be giving them alibis..

In the West, we ship East, and we win on dirt.. Because we are good enough.. And when we lose, we don't make excuses...

Why is it you dirt guys are always excusing the efforts on surfaces that your Eastern horses and connections are choosing to run on?

[Spalding No!]

OK, I should have said prior to teh 08 BC. I think the conversation should center on what was done prior to the 08 BC because how are you supposed to fairly compare Careless Jewel and Zardana when their careers are still ongoing?

NT

I agree and was actually going to respond in a similar fashion to the Cadillakin post. My post was merely academic.

[chickenhead]

Zenyatta did also easily beat Ginger Punch on dirt, of course. But Ginger Punch wasn't herself that day. For similar reasons, I'd probably wait until after Careless Jewel runs a good race before declaring it the best field evah (within this context).

[the little guy]

Zenyatta did also easily beat Ginger Punch on dirt, of course. But Ginger Punch wasn't herself that day. For similar reasons, I'd probably wait until after Careless Jewel runs a good race before declaring it the best field evah (within this context).


I agree with that.

I always wondered what would have happened if Rachel had hooked up with Careless Jewel in that Alabama. It would have taken a mighty effort to beat her that day. Same could easily be said for either Rachel or Zenyatta had they faced Icon Project in the Personal Ensign.

This just proves the point that if top competition actually exists, and horses run in enough tough spots, they all lose....and it's no disgrace. Nobody looks back on Skip Away's career and knocks him for his losses to Formal Gold.

[Kimsus]

Right now, by all appearances, its the Vanity.

Last week on the DRF, Shireffs mentioned the Stephen Foster, and crossed off the Vanity because of concerns with the weight assignment.

This week on the DRF, Shireffs strongly suggested the Vanity would be the next start, and crossed off the Stephen Foster and any other out-of-town race because "she has to run at home some time".

Also, there will be bobble-heads.

Yeah the bobble heads...LOL

I guess we should know by now what Owner's say and do are 2 entirely different things. I know which race I would prefer to see her in.

[Cadillakin]

As for the rest of what you wrote, you seem to fully equate dirt and synthetics together and ignore the notion that horses prefer one over the other. That keeps you from recognizing that of the 12 Grade I races that had been won by Carriage Trail, Cocoa Beach, Hystericalady, Ginger Punch, and Music Note prior to teh 2008 BC exactly 1 of them were earned on a synthetic surface.

NT
I do want to point out that Careless Jewel, unless I'm mistaken,had excellent synthetic form in her 2 or 3 tries at Woodbine..

So, if you want to use that as an excuse for her getting buried by the tomato can, Life is Sweet, it's going to be another long stretch..

But go ahead, give it a shot..

[Dahoss9698]

That's funny.. You're kidding, right?



I know it was pages ago, but since you disappeared we have never gotten to discuss it. Did you want to change your opinion on the whole weight thing, or are you going to pretend that it didn't happen?

[the little guy]

Suggesting Careless Jewel's BC performance is any measure of her talents is akin to saying the same about Holy Bull's performance in the Fountain of Youth.

But hey, if you need to keep discrediting yourself, don't let me stop you.

[NTamm1215]

I do want to point out that Careless Jewel, unless I'm mistaken,had excellent synthetic form in her 2 or 3 tries at Woodbine..

So, if you want to use that as an excuse for her getting buried by the tomato can, Life is Sweet, it's going to be another long stretch..

But go ahead, give it a shot..

It's amazing what you can start to believe if you divorce yourself from what actually happens during races and focus solely on the outcome.

NT

[Kimsus]

I know it was pages ago, but since you disappeared we have never gotten to discuss it. Did you want to change your opinion on the whole weight thing, or are you going to pretend that it didn't happen?

My excuse for dissapearing is I have used up all of my get out of jail cards...I won't elaborate.

[cj]

I do want to point out that Careless Jewel, unless I'm mistaken,had excellent synthetic form in her 2 or 3 tries at Woodbine..

So, if you want to use that as an excuse for her getting buried by the tomato can, Life is Sweet, it's going to be another long stretch..

But go ahead, give it a shot..

If winning bad races in slow time (even for synthetics) is excellent form, I guess you aren't mistaken.

[PaceAdvantage]

So, if you want to use that as an excuse for her getting buried by the tomato can, Life is Sweet, it's going to be another long stretch.. Besides you, who ever called Life is Sweet a tomato can?

Then again, that lowly 103 Beyer Zenyatta earned while beating that supposed "non-Tomato-can" in the Milady last year doesn't do much to support the notion that Zenyatta only runs to the level of her competition...could it be that Life is Sweet really was a tomato can back then?

I know, I know, Beyers don't work on synthetics...but wait, they kicked ass in the 2009 Breeders' Cup....I redboarded that very fact in a thread right here on this site.

Oh, I'm so confused... :confused:

[WinterTriangle]

I know, I know, Beyers don't work on synthetics...but wait, they kicked ass in the 2009 Breeders' Cup....I redboarded that very fact in a thread right here on this site.

Why do you suppose he didn't use any of his own figures when he handicapped the races?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/05/AR2009110502549.html

Classic: He went against Zenyatta, said Rip Van Winkle was the class of the field, and he chose RVW and Twice Over.

Sprint: Fatal Bullet over Capt. Candyman + Gayego

Dirt Mile: Mastercraftman over Bullsbay + Furthest Land

[Cadillakin]

If winning bad races in slow time (even for synthetics) is excellent form, I guess you aren't mistaken.
Form has nothing whatsoever to do with speed ratings or numbers..

The idea that winning races clear, albeit in slow time, (according to you) constitutes or correlates with poor form is something you must have invented in the moment..

Racing form exists apart and separate from the clock and timing devices.. It is wholly a function of competition and achievement within the class...

[Cadillakin]

Besides you, who ever called Life is Sweet a tomato can?

Then again, that lowly 103 Beyer Zenyatta earned while beating that supposed "non-Tomato-can" in the Milady last year doesn't do much to support the notion that Zenyatta only runs to the level of her competition...could it be that Life is Sweet really was a tomato can back then?

I know, I know, Beyers don't work on synthetics...but wait, they kicked ass in the 2009 Breeders' Cup....I redboarded that very fact in a thread right here on this site.

Oh, I'm so confused... :confused:
I'll accept that you're confused, PA. I've often thought that about you...

There are many assertions here that Zenyatta was beating nothing but tomato cans. You and your buddy CJ were the main purveyors of the tomato-can line.. I think CJ invented the phrasing, and you and the others copied him..

Since Life is Sweet faced off with Zenyatta 3 times, (more than any other competitor) your comments about tomato cans obviously pertain to her..

Here are just two posts by you .. There are literally dozens by you and Cj saying the same thing.. Why you would deny saying it and suggest I'm the only one that ever suggested Life is Sweet is a tomato can is beyond me..

=============================================
PaceAdvantage
11-08-2009, 04:10 PM

Fact is they never wanted to leave California...there are only so many Grade 1 races against "tomato can" females that one can enter there....

================================================
PaceAdvantage
11-08-2009, 07:16 PM
One can argue she has put in the greatest career of any horse ever.This can not be said with a straight face, can it?

Are you also another one who has forgotten the first 75% of 2009?

The greatest career of any horse ever? 98% of the time beating up on, as CJ aptly puts it "tomato cans?"

[ghostyapper]

I'll accept that you're confused, PA. I've often thought that about you...
I think CJ invented the phrasing, and you and the others copied him..


That phrase has been around a lot longer than anyone anyone on this message board started using it. It wasn't invented by anyone here, thats for sure.

[cj]

Form has nothing whatsoever to do with speed ratings or numbers..

The idea that winning races clear, albeit in slow time, (according to you) constitutes or correlates with poor form is something you must have invented in the moment..

Racing form exists apart and separate from the clock and timing devices.. It is wholly a function of competition and achievement within the class...

My point was she isn't nearly as good on synthetics. Winning bad races in slow time has nothing to do with how well she handles the surface. That was painfully clear on BC Day 1. The fact she was in good form and posted slow times only furthers the evidence.

I still don't think much of Life is Sweet. She won a watered down version of the Distaff with the top two females sitting it out. She was running on a surface that favors her running style, and she was given the dream setup of all setups.

Side not...You still pretending you didn't post that ridiculous statement about weight and that it will just go away?

[ghostyapper]

I still don't think much of Life is Sweet. She won a watered down version of the Distaff with the top two females sitting it out. She was running on a surface that favors her running style, and she was given the dream setup of all setups.

This is weak. When the top dirt horses show up for a synthetic race, they get a pass for losing and those who beat them don't get the credit for beating them (see page 15 of this thread regarding zenyatta in the 08 bc). But when life is sweet wins the bc, it's watered down because the top 2 were not there even though 1 of the top 2 is a dirt horse.

If you're a hard marker and don't like life is sweet fine. But when you only have nothing but good things to say about a horse like zardana you lose all objectivity.

[BluegrassProf]

...you lose all objectivity.Here here!! :jump:

All ye loyal masses, heed now the words of the Crown Prince of Objectivity, the Sultan of Neutrality, the Emperor of the Impartial! Rue the day when the High Priest of Level-Headedness breaks from his stark detachment, venturing down the deplorable path of partisanship!

Praises be that until that day, by the sidelines he waits, chiding those who would dare deviate from his forum-wide ban on predisposition. Caution, weary travelers...vicious are his chides!! :mad:


(all that to highlight irony. eeeepic irony.)

[Hedevar]

FYI

: I would like to know the origin of the expression "tomato can" used to describe a lousy boxer.

I found "tomato can" in the following reference. It means a fighter that throws the fight. But it doesn't really explain it. Do tomato cans sink rapidly?

GO IN THE WATER - "To take a dive, intentionally lose or throw a fight. 'They say he's a tank artist, a tomato can, a guy that goes in the water for a few bucks..' (Pete Hamill, 'Flesh and Blood,' 1977)" From the "New Yawk Tawk" section of the "Facts on File Dictionary of American Regionalisms: Local Expressions from Coast to Coast" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, New York, 2000).

[cj]

If you're a hard marker and don't like life is sweet fine. But when you only have nothing but good things to say about a horse like zardana you lose all objectivity.

Really? I thought the only thing I've said about Zardana is that she is undefeated on dirt and could be a lot better than those basing her ability on her synthetic races believe. She clearly prefers dirt. I don't think she is as good as RA or Zenyatta if those two are at their best. However, I wouldn't be shocked if she beat either in the future on dirt.

[gm10]

If winning bad races in slow time (even for synthetics) is excellent form, I guess you aren't mistaken.

What do you mean by 'even for synthetics'?

[cj]

What do you mean by 'even for synthetics'?

That figure wise the races were slow, even taking into account the difference between dirt figures and synthetic figures on Beyer.

[Kimsus]

Really? I thought the only thing I've said about Zardana is that she is undefeated on dirt and could be a lot better than those basing her ability on her synthetic races believe. She clearly prefers dirt. I don't think she is as good as RA or Zenyatta if those two are at their best. However, I wouldn't be shocked if she beat either in the future on dirt.

I'm still amazed even a month and a half after "the upset" that people keep referring Zardana as this dirt monster that was suddenly unearthed at age 6. I'm not saying you are saying this in particular CJ, however I will have to check my past p's when I get home, but wasn't she only 1 for 4 on fast tracks prior to her winning the N.O ladies? I think she was 3 for 3 on off tracks; however 1 for 4 prior to her breakthrough win still leaves alot of questions to be answered for Zardana. In my opinion she will be a big bet against in her next start due to her most likely being overbet off of her much to do win over Rachel. I give her credit but I wonder is she really that good? Or was Rachel that mediocre that any quality gr.2 horse would have beaten her that day.

[cj]

I'm still amazed even a month and a half after "the upset" that people keep referring Zardana as this dirt monster that was suddenly unearthed at age 6. I'm not saying you are saying this in particular CJ, however I will have to check my past p's when I get home, but wasn't she only 1 for 4 on fast tracks prior to her winning the N.O ladies? I think she was 3 for 3 on off tracks; however 1 for 4 prior to her breakthrough win still leaves alot of questions to be answered for Zardana. In my opinion she will be a big bet against in her next start due to her most likely being overbet off of her much to do win over Rachel. I give her credit but I wonder is she really that good? Or was Rachel that mediocre that any quality gr.2 horse would have beaten her that day.

No, that is not correct. She is undefeated on dirt, 4 for 4 I believe. I'm not sure about off/fast, but she has not lost on dirt.

[Kimsus]

No, that is not correct. She is undefeated on dirt, 4 for 4 I believe. I'm not sure about off/fast, but she has not lost on dirt.

Then Brisnet is wrong or something isn't being interpretated correctly, I would have sworn she was 1 for 4 on fast tracks on the past p's when I thought about betting the N.O ladies a month ago.

[FenceBored]

Then Brisnet is wrong or something isn't being interpretated correctly, I would have sworn she was 1 for 4 on fast tracks on the past p's when I thought about betting the N.O ladies a month ago.

You're forgetting that Brisnet still includes AWS starts in its FST line. Subtract the AWS line from the FST line for the total number of Dirt starts on a fast track. In Zardana's case that means 4-1-0-0 minus 4-1-0-0 equals 0-0-0-0.

[NTamm1215]

She was listed as having three starts on wet surfaces prior to the New Orleans Ladies but in reality those were three races on "good" tracks in her native country, as best I can remember.

NT

[Kimsus]

You're forgetting that Brisnet still includes AWS starts in its FST line. Subtract the AWS line from the FST line for the total number of Dirt starts on a fast track. In Zardana's case that means 4-1-0-0 minus 4-1-0-0 equals 0-0-0-0.

They also include AW stats in the past p's, so I am not sure why they would include them into the fast track stats, Regardless I am going to look into this.

[Grits]

Then Brisnet is wrong or something isn't being interpretated correctly, I would have sworn she was 1 for 4 on fast tracks on the past p's when I thought about betting the N.O ladies a month ago.

Kimsus, again, its quite possible you're mistaken. You're working from memory, and that's surely ok. It is what it is.

Still, as CJ notes, she's 4 for 4 on dirt. She's not lost, whether those wins were good, fast, or ugly doesn't matter. Too, he may have her entire lifetime of 18 starts, prior to the New Orleans Ladies, in front of him per DRF. Those in her native country included.

Whereas, if you have (when you get home to look into this) the same Bris pps, I have here on my desk, having saved them, and I assume yours are the same, you'll note all that is available in these--are her last ten races. Nothing else.

[FenceBored]

They also include AW stats in the past p's, so I am not sure why they would include them into the fast track stats, Regardless I am going to look into this.

Her pps for the New Orleans Ladies lists 18 lifetime starts. Subtract her 11 turf starts and we're at 7. Subtract the 3 OFF track starts and we're at 4. Which is the number of FST starts and the number of AWS starts.

Feel free to check against anybody who's run both dirt and synth. Brisnet's FST numbers includes the AWS numbers. If you're handicapping for AWS you can focus just on the AWS number. If you're handicapping for dirt and want the dirt only numbers, you have to subtract out any AWS starts.

[Kimsus]

Thnx all, I'll get back to this once I see the past p's.

[Kimsus]

Here is what brisnet had for Zardana's race record going into the N.O Ladies:

It's a little misleading, but they list her AW efforts as fast track efforts. Mystery solved.

Life: 18 7 - 0 - 1 $308,421 99
2010 1 0 - 0 - 0 $15,000 92
2009 7 3 - 0 - 1 $171,820 99
FG 0 0 - 0 - 0 $0
Fst (107*) 4 1 - 0 - 0 $120,400 99
Off (107*) 3 3 - 0 - 0 $42,418
Dis (110*) 3 1 - 0 - 0 $120,000 99
Trf (109*) 11 3 - 0 - 1 $145,603 97
AW 4 1 - 0 - 0 $120,400 99

[FenceBored]

Here is what brisnet had for Zardana's race record going into the N.O Ladies:

It's a little misleading, but they list her AW efforts as fast track efforts. Mystery solved.

Life: 18 7 - 0 - 1 $308,421 99
2010 1 0 - 0 - 0 $15,000 92
2009 7 3 - 0 - 1 $171,820 99
FG 0 0 - 0 - 0 $0
Fst (107*) 4 1 - 0 - 0 $120,400 99
Off (107*) 3 3 - 0 - 0 $42,418
Dis (110*) 3 1 - 0 - 0 $120,000 99
Trf (109*) 11 3 - 0 - 1 $145,603 97
AW 4 1 - 0 - 0 $120,400 99

By the by, checked the 2008 BC day 1 program (Zardana was in the 8th race (Las Palmas Hdcp). All three of her Brazilian races were still in her 10 line pp for that race. All three the track surface was listed as GOOD. No speed figures for those races, and I don't know how Gavea plays, but her she won her three races there by margins of 12.25, 10.5, and 16.25 lengths (avg 13 lengths). The times were 6f in 1:12.60 (twice) and 7f in 1:26.90.

[nearco]

The weight she carried in the vanity has nothing to do with the competition...what matters is the fact she carried that much...regardless of the other horses in any race she runs in...the weight is what Sherriff's worries about...can't blame him, IMO...it does cause more stress on the legs...she's a big, strong mare, and could carry that kind of weight in gallops, but to race at top speed, it would have effect on the legs...hell, the handicap divison colts don't carry that much weight anymore!


Here Joanie, what do you think of this mare? http://www.irishracing.com/v5newsitem?prid=44394
Beat a field of boys last Saturday while carrying 148lbs, giving away 37lbs to the runner up.
You read that right, carrying 148lbs and conceding 37lbs.
Why so afraid of weight?