Get out your Birth Certificate Barry

[JustRalph]

http://www.kpho.com/news/23202195/detail.html

This is classic..........Love it......... :lol: :lol:

Arizona is also considering allowing concealed carry without a permit......

I am looking hard at Arizona for my next move..........:lol:

Ariz House: Check Obama's Citizenship
POSTED: 7:15 pm MST April 19, 2010
UPDATED: 10:23 pm MST April 19, 2010

PHOENIX -- The Arizona House on Monday voted for a provision that would require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate if he hopes to be on the state's ballot when he runs for reelection.
The House voted 31-22 to add the provision to a separate bill. The measure still faces a formal vote.
It would require U.S. presidential candidates who want to appear on the ballot in Arizona to submit documents proving they meet the constitutional requirements to be president.

more at the link

[Robert Goren]

I got no problem with that. If it had been in law in the last election, it would have undoubtedly cause a court case over McCain who was born in the Panama Canal Zone. I don't know of anyone who thought he wasn't eligible, but I know of some people who going to court if he had won.

[46zilzal]

Gee let's all carry concealed weapons and we can be just like Tombstone,and that was in Arizona too.

Can't understand how people can get an erection over a gun, but a lot seem to.

[PaceAdvantage]

Can't understand how people can get an erection over a gun, but a lot seem to.Your vulgarity has not gone unnoticed.

[JustRalph]

Gee let's all carry concealed weapons and we can be just like Tombstone,and that was in Arizona too.

Can't understand how people can get an erection over a gun, but a lot seem to.


stop trying to portray me as a gun nut...... I am far from that.

go away........shoo fly.......get out of my thread.........

[hazzardm]

I own several guns, safely stored. But if I lived anywhere near southern AZ, they would be loaded and readily accessible.

[prospector]

Gee let's all carry concealed weapons and we can be just like Tombstone,and that was in Arizona too.

Can't understand how people can get an erection over a gun, but a lot seem to.
tombstone was peaceful under the earps..its outside of tombstone where people were getting killed (also by the earps)
you don't get the western attitude...i wear my pistol on my hip when i go prospecting into gas stations and quick shops and nobody notices..its normal out here to wear guns on your hip..no mc donalds out here have been shot up..
western justice was better..swift trials, tall trees and short ropes..
no 20 year appeals or excessive taxpayer costs for the guilty..

[boxcar]

Gee let's all carry concealed weapons and we can be just like Tombstone,and that was in Arizona too.

Can't understand how people can get an erection over a gun, but a lot seem to.

Gird up the loins of your mind and make an effort to comprehend what follows, although I have a feeling you won't be able to come to terms with just the very first item!

Boxcar

--------
I don't carry a gun to kill people.
I carry a gun to keep from being killed.

I don't carry a gun to scare people.
I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.

I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid.
I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.

I don't carry a gun because I'm evil.
I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.

I don't carry a gun because I hate the government.
I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.

I don't carry a gun because I'm angry.
I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating
myself for failing to be prepared.

I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.
I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on
a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.

I don't carry a gun because I'm a cowboy.
I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.

I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a man.
I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones
they love.

I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate.
I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.

I don't carry a gun because I love it.
I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.
------------
Police protection is an oxymoron.

Free citizens must protect themselves.

Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the
crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.

Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an butt whoopin'.....author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

***************************************
A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953,
about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up
and exterminated.
------------------------------------------------------

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million
Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
---------------------------------------------------

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13
million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up
and exterminated.
---------------------------------------------------

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million
political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.
-------------------------------------------------

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan
Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
----------------------------------------------------

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000
Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
--------------------------------------------------------

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million
educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.
-------------------------------------------------------

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because
of gun control: 56 million.
----------------------------------------------------------

You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians
disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes,
gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of
this history lesson.

With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.

During WWII, the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew
most Americans were ARMED!

If you value your freedom, please spread this anti gun-control message to
all of your friends.

The purpose of fighting is to win.

There is no possible victory in defense.

The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important
than either.

The final weapon is the brain.

All else is supplemental.

SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN- RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED
COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!

[Robert Goren]

tombstone was peaceful under the earps..its outside of tombstone where people were getting killed (also by the earps)
you don't get the western attitude...i wear my pistol on my hip when i go prospecting into gas stations and quick shops and nobody notices..its normal out here to wear guns on your hip..no mc donalds out here have been shot up..
western justice was better..swift trials, tall trees and short ropes..
no 20 year appeals or excessive taxpayer costs for the guilty..Marshall Virgil Earp banned guns in side the city limits of Tombstone. That is the western attitude that worked.;)

[LottaKash]

SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN- RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED
COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!

Good post Boxcar, trouble is, the "brown-shirts" will not get the significance of your post, and I don't believe that they ever will, they like "control" and being "controlled"...But, I get it....One has only to connect the dots to see what may be coming to this nation very soon....We are almost there, and as for the media, well "Hitler" would've just loved this "propaganda bunch" that pervades the air-waves today...

History is repeating itself again, and closed minds will let it, as they did in all of the other previous "rights-eliminations" scenarios....What is happening in this nation today, is almost a carbon-copy plan that others have used, to get to the ultimate and ulterior GOAL of "total rule" of and by a gov't...I see it plain as day...

best,

[Tom]

Marshall Virgil Earp banned guns in side the city limits of Tombstone. That is the western attitude that worked.;)

Didn't he get gunned down after that?

[GaryG]

Didn't he get gunned down after that?No, he went to Colton CA and worked as a one-armed sheriff. Died around 1910 I think.

[Tom]

Good post Boxcar, trouble is, the "brown-shirts" will not get the significance of your post, and I don't believe that they ever will, they like "control" and being "controlled"...But, I get it....One has only to connect the dots to see what may be coming to this nation very soon....We are almost there, and as for the media, well "Hitler" would've just loved this "propaganda bunch" that pervades the air-waves today...

History is repeating itself again, and closed minds will let it, as they did in all of the other previous "rights-eliminations" scenarios....What is happening in this nation today, is almost a carbon-copy plan that others have used, to get to the ultimate and ulterior GOAL of "total rule" of and by a gov't...I see it plain as day...

best,

The TV show I referred to before was shown again last night on the Military Channel - how Hitler rose to power. Many things are being repeated today, in modern terms. For instance, Hitler burned books, Obama is going after talk radio.

[prospector]

Marshall Virgil Earp banned guns in side the city limits of Tombstone. That is the western attitude that worked.;)
he didn't "ban" them..you were required to check your guns..you could pick them up on the way outta town..kept bar fights "civilized"...knifes, bottles and anything heavy..

[LottaKash]

Hitler burned books, Obama is going after talk radio.

Tom, you are so right on that score....

In fact, that is almost the one "bastion of truth" that we have left....Funny how the "brown-shirts" and the "MM, who scoff at the "Tea baggers", who are comprised of people from all walks of life, who are concerned about our future, most of them have "connected the dots", just as some did in the Nazi days, and are being portrayed as somehow being "Un-American", simply because they want our leaders to be held accountable to the people....

The current regime, along with the most previous regimes, have so far, been successful in their undaunting march to "total rule", in that, they have undermined the judicial system, have destroyed the housing market, killed the job market, killed our manufactuing base with treaties and such, ruined the banking system, and once they have garnered all the wealth, will destroy the "stock-market" for good....Not to mention that they have succeeded, with their sleight of hand, in propagandizing the need to destroy other nations in the name of "terrorism" when the real terrorists are located right here on our own soil....I am embarrassed by it all...

The "brown-shirts" buy into all the crap that the current leaders are feeding them, and they have become so closed minded that they refuse to see, hear, or dare to consider any more about the truth (connecting the dots) than what the power guys would feed them...Blindly at that, at all costs....

Thing of it is, that the "brown-shirts" ultimately, will suffer the "same consequences" as the rest of us who still have the "cajones" to stand up for what is right and true.....Our future "freedom" is in the hands of Gangsters and Thieves now....

Me, I am just an older putz, but I surely feel for my children and their children's children....And I have the utmost contempt for the "brown-shirt" troublemakers, here at PA, and throughout this nation, who blindly follow the tryrant and his henchmen who wish to destroy this nation...They are doing it, and getting away with it folks, just as in the history books, only for real now, not "story books" but the "history books"....And, the brown-shirts, with your unwaivering and unchangeable viewpoint, you are aiding and abetting this....Think of it...

best,

[46zilzal]

stop trying to portray me as a gun nut...... I am far from that.

go away........shoo fly.......get out of my thread.........
They don't BELONG to anyone as I have often pointed out...

[hazzardm]

Tom, you are so right on that score....

In fact, that is almost the one "bastion of truth" that we have left....Funny how the "brown-shirts" and the "MM, who scoff at the "Tea baggers", who are comprised of people from all walks of life, who are concerned about our future, most of them have "connected the dots", just as some did in the Nazi days, and are being portrayed as somehow being "Un-American", simply because they want our leaders to be held accountable to the people....




Someone has been listening to the radio too much...... Did Rush have a recent Nazi/brownshirt/facist broadcast on his ENTERTAINMENT SHOW recently. I do not hear his show much anymore, has he divorced for the fourth time yet?

[cj's dad]

Someone has been listening to the radio too much...... Did Rush have a recent Nazi/brownshirt/facist broadcast on his ENTERTAINMENT SHOW recently. I do not hear his show much anymore, has he divorced for the fourth time yet?

Classy and has zero to do with the OP

[fast4522]

I think the idea is a logical one given the fact his wife was on the TV saying a different name where he was born, now if the idea can catch on and have several states enacting the same requirement it will be just as strong as the majority rejecting him and his ideas.

[NJ Stinks]

For instance, Hitler burned books, Obama is going after talk radio.

Comparing talk radio with books insults books everywhere.

[Lefty]

Guns don't kill people. Stupid gun laws do.

[boxcar]

Comparing talk radio with books insults books everywhere.

Yeah...that's why lib politicians are chompin' at the bit to pass the Fair Doctrine Act aimed at conservative talk shows. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: If talk radio was so innocuous, why are these politicians up in arms?

Boxcar

[Tom]

Originally Posted by NJ Stinks
Comparing talk radio with books insults books everywhere.



Ridiculous. The exchange of ideas is the common thread.
Are you afraid of that concept?

btw, props to NJ - I heard today they voted down 60% of the proposes school budgets. This is a good thing. Too much money is wasted by schools with little to show for it. I would guess 80%of all school budgets are wasted.

[lamboguy]

Yeah...that's why lib politicians are chompin' at the bit to pass the Fair Doctrine Act aimed at conservative talk shows. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: If talk radio was so innocuous, why are these politicians up in arms?

Boxcaryou really don't get it do you?

these conservetive talk show's are run by liberal's behind the scene's. conservetive talk shows are for entertainment purposes only, just like the liberal ones. any button that can be pushed on your body, these shows know how to do, but thats all they know. they are not about anything else but entertainment, not the real world. this world is comprised of real people that have to live their lives every single day.

how do i know this? i met a guy out in the desert over 10 years ago on a crap table that preached consevetism and its values. his name was bill bennett. not a bad guy, he was a degenerate gambler, betting on horses and ballgames, blackjack and craps until he went clean. when he needed to reload his money he went back to being a staunch conservetive. i liked him and really wonder what happened to him and have no idea if he is alive or not today because i haven't seen him on television lately.

[BlueShoe]

Arizona is also considering allowing concealed carry without a permit......

I am looking hard at Arizona for my next move...
Concealed carry has passed. Arizona is also very close to enacting the nations first real anti illegal alien statutes. Imagine that, the freedom to assume the responsibility to defend yourself and a program to expel the illegal invaders. Arizona, while always considered for a place to move to, has now moved way, way up to the top of the list. Leaving the Peoples Socialist Republic of Mexifornia for freedom loving Arizona is sounding better and better.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Arizona, while always considered for a place to move to, has now moved way, way up to the top of the list. Leaving the Peoples Socialist Republic of Mexifornia for freedom loving Arizona is sounding better and better.

Except for those damned anti-ADW laws. :(

[Lefty]

lamby, I guarantee you that Rush, Sean and Levin are more grounded in the real world than obama, pelosi and reid.

[JustRalph]

i liked him and really wonder what happened to him and have no idea if he is alive or not today because i haven't seen him on television lately.

you can't really expect us to think you don't know about Billy Boy?

http://www.billbennett.com/

[PaceAdvantage]

They don't BELONG to anyone as I have often pointed out...I remember when you told me you were just going to post about horse racing... :lol:

[Tom]

And......I'm pretty sure they ALL belong to PA! :eek::D

[boxcar]

you really don't get it do you?

these conservetive talk show's are run by liberal's behind the scene's. conservetive talk shows are for entertainment purposes only, just like the liberal ones. any button that can be pushed on your body, these shows know how to do, but thats all they know. they are not about anything else but entertainment, not the real world. this world is comprised of real people that have to live their lives every single day.

how do i know this? i met a guy out in the desert over 10 years ago on a crap table that preached consevetism and its values. his name was bill bennett. not a bad guy, he was a degenerate gambler, betting on horses and ballgames, blackjack and craps until he went clean. when he needed to reload his money he went back to being a staunch conservetive. i liked him and really wonder what happened to him and have no idea if he is alive or not today because i haven't seen him on television lately.

I had no idea that Bennett ran all these conservative talks shows. :rolleyes: Or is he only behind one or two of them? If so who are behind the rest? The Clintons? Jimmy Carter? Peoloi? Reid? Emmanuel?

And by the way, these "entertainment" only shows are more revealing about life and far more truthful about what is going on in this country and the world than are our elected officials in D.C. This is something you, evidently, don't get, do you? If this were not true, the vipers in D.C. would not be looking to shut down conservative talks shows. Just remember: Where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

Boxcar

[JustRalph]

His show runs on Xm Radio early mornings

a little boring sometimes.......... i personally prefer Quinn and Rose at the same time

http://www.warroom.com

[ddog]

lamby, I guarantee you that Rush, Sean and Levin are more grounded in the real world than obama, pelosi and reid.


and I can tell you that the bar you set out is not above ant hill size.

Levin , even Rush i am ok with, but when you stoop to hannity, you are in denial and it does damage to your case. He is a con man who scams via his charity, the IRS docs show it to be true unless they to are a lie, just as his con cred is.

as worthless a POS as ever walked this earth.

[prospector]

Concealed carry has passed. Arizona is also very close to enacting the nations first real anti illegal alien statutes. Imagine that, the freedom to assume the responsibility to defend yourself and a program to expel the illegal invaders. Arizona, while always considered for a place to move to, has now moved way, way up to the top of the list. Leaving the Peoples Socialist Republic of Mexifornia for freedom loving Arizona is sounding better and better.
we're looking into checking for aclu cards at the airports and borders..

[Lefty]

lamby, where is it written that a conservative can't be a gambler? Bennet gambled in Vegas and hey, baby, it's legal. And, he gambled with his own money.

[hazzardm]

Arizona has an estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants and is the state with the most illegal border crossings, with the harsh, remote desert serving as the gateway for thousands of Mexicans and Central Americans.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100423/D9F8RVBG0.html


Seems strange to me that only 1/25th or so of the estimated 12 million illegals reside in AZ ???

[bigmack]

Seems strange to me that only 1/25th or so of the estimated 12 million illegals reside in AZ ???
Not really.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/MexiforniaDL-650x404.jpg

[hazzardm]

Not really.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/MexiforniaDL-650x404.jpg

This is old data, but it appears over half land in Cal, Texas, NY, and Illini.
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_est_num_of_ill_imm-people-estimated-number-illegal-immigrants

[Tom]

Let the round up begin.


One thing....as far as NY goes, I will trade our Albany politicians for 465,000 illegals any day of the week.

[Steve 'StatMan']

[QUOTE=hazzardmSeems strange to me that only 1/25th or so of the estimated 12 million illegals reside in AZ ???[/QUOTE]

They need to move on to the big cities where more jobs are available.

[GaryG]

Arizona acted stupidly....there will be NO MORE power to the soverign states. I am King Of Kings and Lord Of Lords.....no wait, that title is already taken.

http://whitehouse.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/04/23/obama-blasts-pending-arizona-immigration-law-irresponsibility/

[ddog]

I say anyone darker than snow white or not dressed properly better produce your "papers" or be shot on sight.

That should clear the area - not exactly a ghost town, maybe a sheeple round-up prelude.


It always starts this way, the brown shirts - then , well some of you will see.
only some.


If Obama sent in the National Guard to round-up the "illegals" not a one of you ignorant neo-cons would howl , I expect.

If on the way to the glorious clean America a few "others" got "harmed" well that's just a little collateral damage, I think that's your term of art.

You will give up your freedom for your delusions.

[fast4522]

I say anyone darker than snow white or not dressed properly better produce your "papers"

Why play the race card, such is the way of the low life.

It is fitting that everyone produce what everyone else has to period. The hell with the BS, and let the shit be sifted.

[boxcar]

I say anyone darker than snow white or not dressed properly better produce your "papers" or be shot on sight.

That should clear the area - not exactly a ghost town, maybe a sheeple round-up prelude.


It always starts this way, the brown shirts - then , well some of you will see.
only some.


If Obama sent in the National Guard to round-up the "illegals" not a one of you ignorant neo-cons would howl , I expect.

If on the way to the glorious clean America a few "others" got "harmed" well that's just a little collateral damage, I think that's your term of art.

You will give up your freedom for your delusions.

Why would we conservatives howl? The federal government shares equal responsibility for the situation because it refused to enforce its own laws! The government is the illegals' accomplice! If it had acted in accordance with its constitutional responsibilities, we wouldn't have this problem, would we? And so, if it ever decided to crack down now, after all the horses are out of the barn, we conservatives are to protest what exactly -- a violations of the illegal aliens' constitutional rights? :bang: :bang:

You're truly a piece of work. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[Robert Goren]

Shut down the employers who hire them. Not just fines but real jail time. I think you would see this problem disappear in a hurry if they did that. Strange AZ or any other state hollering about them hasn't tried that. JMO

[GaryG]

Shut down the employers who hire them. Not just fines but real jail time. I think you would see this problem disappear in a hurry if they did that. Strange AZ or any other state hollering about them hasn't tried that. JMOI agree with that 100%. But do you really think they would go back to Mexico? More likely to stay here and live off the fat of the welfare state. We need nothing short of a fortified border with deady results for trespassers.

[Tom]

Confiscate the business, like drug dealer's car.
Oh, wait, the donate to the political whores....we can't expect them to obey the laws too?

[JustRalph]

Btw, In Law Enforcement circles, this will be taken as a direct threat from Obama:

Obama said the administration will "closely monitor the situation and examine the civil rights and other implications of this legislation."
White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs later explained the Justice Department will monitor "potential civil rights violations" experienced by legal residents.

When asked to explain whose rights would be violated, Gibbs said:
"Somebody that gets stopped who is legal resident, is a citizen. It's clear that in the law, if you're suspected to be (illegal) the law allows you to be stopped. You may be a citizen. That's what he's asked the Justice Department to look into, again, if it becomes law."

Asked about next steps, Gibbs said: "Once this becomes law, if it does, the president has asked them (Justice Department lawyers) to evaluate that...it doesn't make sense to get ahead of that evaluation. I think it's pretty safe to say from the president's remarks he's not supportive of the law."

Obama will move to lock up Police Officers and it will be interesting to see how Obama's Justice Department handles it. This is a Mexican Standoff as of now (pun intended) every officer in Arizona is now risking Jail time at the Federal level.......if they enforce this law. That is clear from Obama and Gibbs remarks. This is going to get real real hairy..........and nasty.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I live in Arizona now, but grew up in New York.

I saw plenty of blacks pulled over and given the town that I lived in, I have little doubt that being black was a (or the) primary reason they were stopped.

So, I am a little sympathetic to the concerns of profiling and infingement on the liberties of legal citizens in this bill just signed into law.

But you know, the opponents are being a little over the top with their concerns. If I get pulled over by a cop for no reason and he wants to search the car on a fishing expedition hoping to find drugs or guns or something, I'd be taken aback and a bit reluctant to consent.

But if I am swerving onto the shoulder and driving erratically because there is a bee buzzing around my head while trying to drive and he pulls me over, I'd offer the consent as I could understand the officer's ratioinale for probable cause.

The law in and of itself isn't terribly upsetting, but the potential for abuse can be. I understand it. But, can't we give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt for the time being and not assume the absolute worst?

I'm sure there will be people that are treated unfairly, but I'm just not willing to jump immediately to the conclusion that it will be so egregious as to be totally incongruent with the existing inherent unfairness of some police action in similar scenarios.

[hazzardm]

The AZ Governor has now signed the bill.

[Show Me the Wire]

Shut down the employers who hire them. Not just fines but real jail time. I think you would see this problem disappear in a hurry if they did that. Strange AZ or any other state hollering about them hasn't tried that. JMO


Difficult to incarcerate a corporation.

[boxcar]

This could get very interesting. The Florida House just passed a bill that would allow ObamaCare to be put on the referendum in the next election. The Feds already told Florida that it "can't" do that because federal law trumps states' rights. This is what we need. We need the States to take a firm stand against this regime.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Difficult to incarcerate a corporation.

No it's not. You incarcerate its officers.

Boxcar

[LottaKash]

This could get very interesting. The Florida House just passed a bill that would allow ObamaCare to be put on the referendum in the next election. The Feds already told Florida that it "can't" do that because federal law trumps states' rights. This is what we need. We need the States to take a firm stand against this regime.

Boxcar

Good ,we must fight the march to "dictatorship", wherever and whenever we can, legally that is....

best,

[Show Me the Wire]

No it's not. You incarcerate its officers.

Boxcar

That is easy to say, but difficult to impliment. The issue is an economic issue, and the punishment should fit the crime, i.e fines large enough to deter future behavior.

Regarding jail time for the illegal border crossers themselves, is not very important. It is more important that they be convicted of felony behavior, and deported instead of being incarerated even for one day. The criminal convinction bars the person from becoming a U.S. citizen, and that is the real reason for the outcry against the law.

Arizona is protecting the welfare of its legal citizens and residents by restricting the type of person that is elgible for citizenship. You do not want people willing to commit crimes, to better their life, as potential citizens.

To answer hazzardm if jail time is not necessary for the illegal border crosser, it is not necessary for the employer. The economic consequences of conviction of the illegal border crosser and employer more than satisfies the goal.

[boxcar]

That is easy to say, but difficult to impliment. The issue is an economic issue, and the punishment should fit the crime, i.e fines large enough to deter future behavior.

Regarding jail time for the illegal border crossers themselves, is not very important. It is more important that they be convicted of felony behavior, and deported instead of being incarerated even for one day. The criminal convinction bars the person from becoming a U.S. citizen, and that is the real reason for the outcry against the law.

Arizona is protecting the welfare of its legal citizens and residents by restricting the type of person that is elgible for citizenship. You do not want people willing to commit crimes, to better their life, as potential citizens.

To answer hazzardm if jail time is not necessary for the illegal border crosser, it is not necessary for the employer. The economic consequences of conviction of the illegal border crosser and employer more than satisfies the goal.

It is an economic issue -- but it's also a legal one. The federal government or even the states should have done both with employers. Fined them and locked up their corporate officers. Set the example. Show the scofflaws (on both sides of this issue) that we know how to hurt them -- that we know how to play hardball.

Boxcar
P.S. Corporate execs go to jail or even prison just about every day in this country. The only thing that makes it "difficult to implement" is the lack of will on behalf of the federal government.

[Tom]

Difficult to incarcerate a corporation.\

No, haul of the BOD.

That is easy to say, but difficult to impliment. The issue is an economic issue, and the punishment should fit the crime, i.e fines large enough to deter future behavior.

If you bust a drug dealer, you take his car. Same thing. Bringing illegals here and protecting them is a major thing - I suggest worthy of mandatory hard time for long periods and forfeiting the corporation's assests.

It is not an economic issue - it is national security. Those bringing them here should face the death penalty. There is no worse offense to the nation than violating it's sovereignty. American citizens are dying while this POS president fails to do his job and protect our borders. I was ready try Bush for treason and I am ready to try Obama for as well.
Clearly, both deserve the fullest penalty of the law.

[Greyfox]

No it's not. You incarcerate its officers.

Boxcar

:ThmbUp: Right on. You bring charges on them anyways.
It's called "piercing the Corporate Veil."

[Show Me the Wire]

I don't want to take this too far afield, but all crimes are not and should not be jailable offenses.

Second the executives that go to jail, ususally are convicted of fraud or some individual crime based on fiduciary duties to the corp and/or the stockholders regarding financial crimes.

As I explained in my answer to hazzardm, that jail time for employers or illegal border crossers is not necessary to meet the required goals of Arizona protecting the welfare of its citizens and residents. His argument is a big red herring, to imply unfairness, so one may conclude the law is one-sided thus a bad law.

Both parties to an illegal act do not have to be treated the same to obtain the desired goal. Our laws are filled with plenty of examples, should the bettor face the same penalties as the bookie, since they are involved in the same illegal transaction, etc. Most people will say the no and that is the correct answwer, especially to economic based crimes.

His argument is nothing but a red herring, as the illegal border crossers have to break the law first for the employer to hire them.

[hazzardm]

I don't want to take this too far afield, but all crimes are not and should not be jailable offenses.

Second the executives that go to jail, ususally are convicted of fraud or some individual crime based on fiduciary duties to the corp and/or the stockholders regarding financial crimes.

As I explained in my answer to hazzardm, that jail time for employers or illegal border crossers is not necessary to meet the required goals of Arizona protecting the welfare of its citizens and residents. His argument is a big red herring, to imply unfairness, so one may conclude the law is one-sided thus a bad law.

Both parties to an illegal act do not have to be treated the same to obtain the desired goal. Our laws are filled with plenty of examples, should the bettor face the same penalties as the bookie, since they are involved in the same illegal transaction, etc. Most people will say the no and that is the correct answwer, especially to economic based crimes.

His argument is nothing but a red herring, as the illegal border crossers have to break the law first for the employer to hire them.

What the heck did I say ???? For the record, I would say hiring an illegal for the express purpose of saving payroll money would indeed be corporate fraud.

[Greyfox]

His argument is nothing but a red herring, as the illegal border crossers have to break the law first for the employer to hire them.

Isn't crossing the border illegally breaking the law first??

[Show Me the Wire]

What the heck did I say ???? For the record, I would say hiring an illegal for the express purpose of saving payroll money would indeed be corporate fraud.


You indicated that all parties involved in a type of crime should be treated equally and that the employers are more to blame than the people that illegally crossed the border.

The employers couldn't hire the illegal border crossers if the border crossers didn't break the law first and continued to break the law by securing false identification documentation.

[Show Me the Wire]

Isn't crossing the border illegally breaking the law first??

Yes, that is why I said they are more culpable, like the bookie.

[Greyfox]

Yes, that is why I said they are more culpable, like the bookie.

Thanks for the clarification. I was pretty "concrete" in my first reading.

[hazzardm]

You indicated that all parties involved in a type of crime should be treated equally and that the employers are more to blame than the people that illegally crossed the border.


I think we have a case of mistaken identity ......

[boxcar]

I don't want to take this too far afield, but all crimes are not and should not be jailable offenses.

Second the executives that go to jail, ususally are convicted of fraud or some individual crime based on fiduciary duties to the corp and/or the stockholders regarding financial crimes.

As I explained in my answer to hazzardm, that jail time for employers or illegal border crossers is not necessary to meet the required goals of Arizona protecting the welfare of its citizens and residents. His argument is a big red herring, to imply unfairness, so one may conclude the law is one-sided thus a bad law.

Both parties to an illegal act do not have to be treated the same to obtain the desired goal. Our laws are filled with plenty of examples, should the bettor face the same penalties as the bookie, since they are involved in the same illegal transaction, etc. Most people will say the no and that is the correct answwer, especially to economic based crimes.

His argument is nothing but a red herring, as the illegal border crossers have to break the law first for the employer to hire them.

On the other hand...if the illegals knew it would be extremely difficult for them to find employment once here, would not that fact of American life act as little deterrent against coming here in the first place? Just asking... ;)

Keep in mind that I'm not particularly sold on the prison or jail time idea for employers -- but I am convinced that tough sanctions (with big teeth) must be taken against both perps -- the illegal aliens and the scofflaw employers.

Boxcar

[Show Me the Wire]

I think we have a case of mistaken identity ......

Sorry.

It was the 'detective" .

[Show Me the Wire]

On the other hand...if the illegals knew it would be extremely difficult for them to find employment once here, would not that fact of American life act as little deterrent against coming here in the first place? Just asking... ;)................................................ .............
Boxcar


If it were that simple. Even if you are unemployed in the U.S. you still recieve medical care, subsidzed housing, etc. You don't die in the streets of some small Mexican village.

There are plenty of enticements besides employment.

[boxcar]

If it were that simple. Even if you are unemployed in the U.S. you still recieve medical care, subsidzed housing, etc. You don't die in the streets of some small Mexican village.

There are plenty of enticements besides employment.

Of course, there are other enticements, but the biggest of these are jobs. Take away the jobs and I don't think too many illegals would rush here to live in some Corrugated Housing Authority, which would also make them highly visible to law enforcement types. The central idea to coming here is to "blend in" and look semi-respectable. Have you so soon forgotten that one of the major arguments during the last amnesty attempt by amnesty supporters was that it was good to have illegals here because they took jobs that supposedly no one else wanted, i.e. no red-blooded, self-respecting American wanted. :) But now, times have changed a wee bit since then, haven't they?

Boxcar

[GaryG]

Jan Brewer to Barry Hussein: FUBO!

Hundreds of protesters gathered at the State Capitol complex Friday calling on Brewer to veto the legislation.
Demonstrators have been camped outside the Capitol since the measure passed out of the Legislature on Monday. Their numbers have grown steadily throughout the week, with buses bringing protesters from as far away as Los Angeles.

[Tom]

If it were that simple. Even if you are unemployed in the U.S. you still recieve medical care, subsidzed housing, etc. You don't die in the streets of some small Mexican village.

There are plenty of enticements besides employment.

And so we remove each one until there are now. Proof of citizenship at all hospitals is a good start. Subsidized housing? Give me abreak...if that can't be fixed overnight, we have idiots runnig the show.

ALL crime associted with illegal entry should be class 1 felonies with mandaotry hared time. Nothing is more fundamental than national secuity. Zero tolerance.

[jballscalls]

And so we remove each one until there are now. Proof of citizenship at all hospitals is a good start. Subsidized housing? Give me abreak...if that can't be fixed overnight, we have idiots runnig the show.

ALL crime associted with illegal entry should be class 1 felonies with mandaotry hared time. Nothing is more fundamental than national secuity. Zero tolerance.

Do we put them in jail here for their 'mandaotry hared time" or send them back to their home country for it? because as we know, jail and prison space is way overfull here in the states, plus it's probably more costly to us taxpayers to have them in jail.

[boxcar]

Do we put them in jail here for their 'mandaotry hared time" or send them back to their home country for it? because as we know, jail and prison space is way overfull here in the states, plus it's probably more costly to us taxpayers to have them in jail.

What is "mandatory hared time"?

Boxcar

[Tom]

Do we put them in jail here for their 'mandaotry hared time" or send them back to their home country for it? because as we know, jail and prison space is way overfull here in the states, plus it's probably more costly to us taxpayers to have them in jail.

We put the people here who hire or serve them in jail.
The rest we send back, or better yet, send them to Cuba or Venezuala where things are so much better.

[Tom]

What is "mandatory hared time"?

Boxcar

:lol: Touche! Instant Karma for JB! :lol:

[Robert Goren]

And so we remove each one until there are now. Proof of citizenship at all hospitals is a good start. Subsidized housing? Give me abreak...if that can't be fixed overnight, we have idiots runnig the show.

ALL crime associted with illegal entry should be class 1 felonies with mandaotry hared time. Nothing is more fundamental than national secuity. Zero tolerance. Do you always carry around proof of citizenship? I am not opposed to a national id card, but I know plenty of people who are and almost all of them are conservative republicans. I just don't see how you can this without one. JMO

[jballscalls]

:lol: Touche! Instant Karma for JB! :lol:

actually it's not, i was quoting how it was spelled and said above by you. :bang:

[GaryG]

I see where obie is going to do everything he can to overturn this law. With health care out of the way I guess he needs something else to occupy his time. What he said was basically that they could not allow states to have any sovereign power......the states will do as he tells them to do. He is getting fuboed from several sides these days, all below the M-D line.

[Greyfox]

What is "mandatory hared time"?

Boxcar

One week in a rabbit hutch for a start. Then you come out with a receding hare line and need a hare dryer to blow the crap off.

[BlueShoe]

Seems strange to me that only 1/25th or so of the estimated 12 million illegals reside in AZ ???
That is because most of the rest are next door in California, where life is good for them and the far left Democrats smooch their backsides. Free housing, free food, free medical care, free education, free room and board when they land in jail, etc.

[boxcar]

That is because most of the rest are next door in California, where life is good for them and the far left Democrats smooch their backsides. Free housing, free food, free medical care, free education, free room and board when they land in jail, etc.

Ahh...so that's what is meant by the "home of the free and land of the brave". Everything is FREE! :jump: :jump: :jump:

Boxcar

[Tom]

Do you always carry around proof of citizenship? I am not opposed to a national id card, but I know plenty of people who are and almost all of them are conservative republicans. I just don't see how you can this without one. JMO

Until the moron libs destroyed the value of a driver's licenses, THAT was good enough. I could easily carry around a copy of my birth certificate; unlike Obama, I have one.

An ID card - non bio would be fine, but none of this tracking crap Schummer is shooting for.

[fast4522]

"An ID card - non bio would be fine, but none of this tracking crap Schummer is shooting for."

I have disliked this egg sucking ferret way before I ever knew about Pace Advantage. Everything he has ever pushed during his filthy career has been Nazi carbon copy. Not one original idea from this weasel and yet the people of New York return him to office every time. Why in gods green earth do the people from that state want a police state. Am I wrong or I just do not know because I do not live there?

[Robert Goren]

I don't know that a copy of someone's birth certificate proves anything. How do you that it is even theirs? JMO

[chickenhead]

Ahh...so that's what is meant by the "home of the free and land of the brave". Everything is FREE! :jump: :jump: :jump:

Boxcar

I think boxcar is closer to being right, its got more to do with jobs so far as why they're in Cali. Servies are services for the most part the states over. A whole lot of crops to be picked in Cali, enough produce to boggle the mind. There is a huge demand for unskilled hard workers who'll take peanuts for pay If you let them, they'll employ illegals.

[Tom]

"An ID card - non bio would be fine, but none of this tracking crap Schummer is shooting for."

I have disliked this egg sucking ferret way before I ever knew about Pace Advantage. Everything he has ever pushed during his filthy career has been Nazi carbon copy. Not one original idea from this weasel and yet the people of New York return him to office every time. Why in gods green earth do the people from that state want a police state. Am I wrong or I just do not know because I do not live there?

We send out morse code messages every night to Texas.....we are letting them know the resistance is ready to lend aid in our liberation. SOS SOS Save Our State.

[hazzardm]

That is because most of the rest are next door in California, where life is good for them and the far left Democrats smooch their backsides. Free housing, free food, free medical care, free education, free room and board when they land in jail, etc.

Better get ready for more of them coming soon...

[BlueShoe]

Better get ready for more of them coming soon...
We can trade places. The illegals run out of Arizona pour into California and I move to Arizona.