Class of the field

[upset]

Have any of yall ever tried to average in a number rating the competitveness of the race 1,2,3,4,or 5 along with a class level number along with a speed rating. To come up with a class/speed number like J.Quinn sugests in his book class of the field?

[timtam]

Actually someone created a program to use the data from the book Class of

the Field quite a few years ago. It's probably on a floppy disk but I do

remember most of the reviews were very negative.

[GaryG]

Using COTF requires a lot of careful race watching and is very subjective. I don't see how it lends itself to computer analysis. The point is that a good figure under competitive or stressful conditions is worth a lot more than the same fig with an easy trip.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Have any of yall ever tried to average in a number rating the competitveness of the race 1,2,3,4,or 5 along with a class level number along with a speed rating. To come up with a class/speed number like J.Quinn sugests in his book class of the field?

No number IMO can replace an understanding of the class structure.Mark Cramer has mentioned in his books that speed figures rise and fall by as many as 5 points or more on class rises and drops.It's merely finish position of a class drop,horses under more ideal circumstances get inspired and run faster races.Anticipating these jumps is key.A selected paceline "Might" be an indicator.But trainer intent and class circumstances can produce big efforts.It takes a while but look at the condition books at the tracks you play.Many subtle looking moves are huge.

[Robert Goren]

BRIS has a class rating in some of their past performances. It is a useful number. JMO

[Cratos]

I have always believed that class is post-race determined and is defined as the level at which a horse consistently wins.

There is no number that will quantitate class. However winning will always point you toward class.

[46zilzal]

TOO erratically subjective to have any long term functionality....good book, just impractical.

[skate]

judge class by the money

[Tom]

TOO erratically subjective to have any long term functionality....good book, just impractical.

Did you try? That was the question posed.

Upset, I am trying it for the triple crown races...I'll let you know what I come up with. I did it a couple of years ago and it was a really good handicapping experience if nothing else. I think the method can be applied to easier nowadays with chart availability, better pars and speed figs, and replays.
That is my new project this year. I don't see a need to do every race,nor every horse. It can now be done more on the fly and in real time.

[castaway01]

judge class by the money
After the changes of the past decade due to all of the inflated slot-machine purses, that won't work nearly as well as it once did.

[ranchwest]

After the changes of the past decade due to all of the inflated slot-machine purses, that won't work nearly as well as it once did.

Seems to still work.

[skate]

yes sir, it depends on just how precise and how you want to use the 'class'.


for an overall view, is one thing but for action on todays race, for me, i'll consider the purse money from witch i take a line.

simple enough, but it could complicate it we try to judge one line from a 50,000 claimer and another line from a 40,000 alw., consider track to track along with a few othwer points, but bottom line, i'll look at money, which Also means the purse.

[upset]

It just seems to me, like Tom said, you're making a number useing your own qualitative visualation of the races(ie the triple crown preps) you're comingleing several handicapping schools of thought(speed,pace,trip) and coming up with a number that no one else has but yourself. And if you take it a step further throw in form and cycle somehow you could make your own morningline and bet the overlays. It could be a dream come true somed up in one number. because when you think about it, the game is sumed up in one set of numbers, and thats the odds line for each race.

[CincyHorseplayer]

If you are specifying then it's a different story.Class conditions are relevant on nuts and bolts,everyday races.But if you are talking about 2yo and 3yo that are trying a marathon distance as teenagers with zits on their face and bad habits,then class is a spurious concept.

But on a day to day basis,if you are trying to beat the game,class means a lot.Myself personally,once I eliminated conditions I couldn't beat,ones that literally tore me apart,my win rate rose bigtime.And that is what this whole game is about.Put the bias in your favor.Come up with a betting angle that has ridiculous ROI.It's real and it's possible and class sensitivity is definitely a place to start.

[windoor]

A long time ago I use to calculate a “purse effectiveness” (PE) number my looking at the number of times a horse ran in the money and adding .6 for each win, .2 for each 2nd, .1 for 3rd and .05 for 4th as determined by his last 10 starts. Get the total, and then divide into the total money won for the year.

This, in theory, would give the average purse the horse in question was able to run well, and thus determine the class of the horse. Any horse that was running for a purse that was well under his PE number was considered a contender.

It wasn’t much use for younger horses, but could work well with 4 year and older, as long as you could determine the horse was fit for today’s race.

I still use something very similar today. I find it works quite well in the claiming ranks down to about 5K.

Regards,

Windoor

[classhandicapper]

"Class of the Field" is one of my all time favorite handicapping books, but I never actually sat down and rated fields and horses exactly the same way he suggests in the book.

Quinn attempts to define class (which IMO he does well), but I think the purpose of the book is to suggest that even though it's a good idea to use objective measures of ability likes speed figures (and pace figures even though he doesn't cover that), the competitiveness of races (or quality of them) can impact final time. So he tries to build a method to determine the quality by looking at PAR times and watching races develop. Then he combines the subjective with the objective to get an overall rating.

Like I said, I don't rate horses the same way, but my principles are very similar and it works well.

It would be hard to test his method though because so much depends on the subjective rating.

[46zilzal]

It would be hard to test his method though because so much depends on the subjective rating.
BINGO!

[Tom]

We're playing horses, not Bingo here. :D

No, actually, your results are the cumulative effects of the entire rating method, both the figures, variants, and your race rating abilities. Perfectly legit to do this. You can look objectively as subjective results.
The criteria he gives for the competitive levels are pretty good, so if you just say all races are a 3 unless you have overwhelming evidence to the contrary you will minimize errors. I want to somehow put fast/slow paces into the mix, but that is going to be a case-by case experiment.

At the least, you are being forced to really evaluate races more in depth.
And it is fun.;)

[CincyHorseplayer]

We're playing horses, not Bingo here. :D

No, actually, your results are the cumulative effects of the entire rating method, both the figures, variants, and your race rating abilities. Perfectly legit to do this. You can look objectively as subjective results.
The criteria he gives for the competitive levels are pretty good, so if you just say all races are a 3 unless you have overwhelming evidence to the contrary you will minimize errors. I want to somehow put fast/slow paces into the mix, but that is going to be a case-by case experiment.

At the least, you are being forced to really evaluate races more in de;)pth.
And it is fun.

I think this is key right here.What I read into subjects like this is "How can I eliminate thinking??"."How can this be reduced to a number so I don't have to execute the thought processes?".I see people who never look at these animals as individuals,and in turn don't recognize a form cycle,nor the manipulation within the class structure,never understand the nature of the game and how races are run,and is reduced to fun with numbers.Good for them!It takes all kinds,but looking at a guy like Brohamer,he could use the numbers effectively because he was a great handicapper.Might be getting off topic a little but comprehensive thinking vs the speed reader method will definitely win in the long run.

[grahors]

Anyone give a fair shake to Scott's PCR rating? looking at horsies with 5 or more races.

[classhandicapper]

I want to somehow put fast/slow paces into the mix, but that is going to be a case-by case experiment.

At the least, you are being forced to really evaluate races more in depth.
And it is fun.;)

Exactly.

He avoided using pace figures as a tool for measuring competitiveness. That's where I've branched off from him. I use pace figures and formulas for combining pace and speed to try help try to estimate performance.

[LottaKash]

Have any of yall ever tried to average in a number rating the competitveness of the race 1,2,3,4,or 5 along with a class level number along with a speed rating. To come up with a class/speed number like J.Quinn sugests in his book class of the field?

"Trackmaster" has those numbers that you are looking for...They put them side by side, "Class-Rating" first then the "Speed-Rating" right along side of the CR....I don't use them, but I do use the Harness-Version of the CR/SR's ...So, I am not sure how valuable they be for the T-Bred side of things, but the Harness CR/SR's seem accurate enough to me....I will say this tho, I make and use other numbers in my search for winners, and I don't use the CR/SR all that much, as my numbers are much better, and in Harness Racing, the class structure(s) is so much ez-ier to comphrehend for me, including all the subtleties...So I don't use a class "number" per-se, just an acronym for the description in "two-areas of Class"....

P.S. Tom Brohammer's "MPH" & Ray Taulbot's Pace Computer v3.0 software programs are compatible with and use the basic Trackmaster (EXE) files version of the past performances for T-breds...If that helps any....

best,