Blackjack

[The Hawk]

I have a question for you guys who are successful blackjack players: What makes you so good at the game? What I mean is, if so many people (like me) try to play by the book, every time, what is it that separates the top players from those of us who are casual players who win some, lose some, win some, lose some? What are some of the betting pitfalls that we should be wary of? Thanks to anyone who has the expertise to answer this question.

[Robert Goren]

Ego, greed and stupidity. How many things are you keeping track of when you play? If all you are doing is the Revere count, you at best are going be a break even player. The most important thing that anyone who ever wants to the casinos needs to know. Never Ever give them your name. If they get your name never ever play there again or any place even remotely connected to them. And take a long, very long vacation from the tables.

[ldiatone]

are you playing single deck or a "shoe"? try single deck and do some research
on some simple card counting.. simple key word. i think the casinos lowered the pay out for blackjack from 2-1 --6/5. did they? hey play craps...yo 11. :jump: buy the 4 :jump:. love those 10 points :)

[delayjf]

The one lesson I learned from my blackjack days is You have to have an adequate bankroll. No matter the strengths of the count you use, you still only have a small edge and there will be lots of ups and downs. You need the bankroll to sustain you.

[Robert Goren]

The one lesson I learned from my blackjack days is You have to have an adequate bankroll. No matter the strengths of the count you use, you still only have a small edge and there will be lots of ups and downs. You need the bankroll to sustain you.That can not be emphasized enough.

[The Hawk]

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

[Lefty]

Many Casinos lowered the Natural Blackjack from 3-2 to 6-5. But you can still find some 3-2 payouts. Don't settle for less!

[delayjf]

Lefty, is that you - how are you doing??

[Lefty]

Delay, thanks for asking. I'm doing great. I've been busy with other interests, such as building websites.

[chickenhead]

building websites? That's great Lefty! I really admire your ability to stay spry and engaged, that's awesome.

[ldiatone]

Many Casinos lowered the Natural Blackjack from 3-2 to 6-5. But you can still find some 3-2 payouts. Don't settle for less!
i agree. i can't wait to see what the meadows and the rivers casino do w/ this when the table games do come in july. if 3 card poker is offered i hope the casinos make one play both "pair plus" and the bet/ante. i know in vegas one can play just the pair plus, which is easier on the bank roll and you don't have to hope the dealer has a queen. yes a little less winnings but not as much thinking on to hold and play Q-J-8 against the dealer :)

[skate]

the only point i can add


i worked in a casino, n vagas, Management explained to player "we're not saying you cheat, but WE don't want your business". He played for about 6 or 7 days, before confronted.

very serious, yep.

[Robert Goren]

That is my point, If you are a winning player, you need to fly well under the radar. The casinos are not in business to provide anyone a living at their expense. JMO

[delayjf]

Skate,

Perhaps you can address this from your perspective, but at the bigger casinos that I played (Rio, Ceasars, Mirage, MGM Grand) as long as the stakes were low they didn't really care. (I played mostly green chips (25) and when on a roll would play black chips (100). Now I played on weekends only about once a month, so I don't know if that made any difference. But the bottom line I didn't catch any noticible heat and I did win about a grand per trip.

[skate]

delay;


yes, i can understand, keeping spead out, helps.


In my case, 30 years back, the player had about maybe 6 or 7 days straight winning days, small casino also.

But i do know also, the Stardust, and every other casino really, they keep an eye out for any winners and they'll (stated earlier) ask for your personal info.

so i guess my point would be, watch out

[Rookies]

The one lesson I learned from my blackjack days is You have to have an adequate bankroll. No matter the strengths of the count you use, you still only have a small edge and there will be lots of ups and downs. You need the bankroll to sustain you.

INDEED. The game is one of runs. Get down low on the bad ones and start boosting when the dealer is busting on 3 cards. So many casinos now use the auto shuffler. Even if you're not an MIT grad ;) , tough to do any counting...

[BlueShoe]

The game is much tougher today than it was 30 years ago. 6-5 single deck, csms, bad rules, poor penetration, tracking software, very sophisticated cameras, etc. have made it very difficult. In their zeal to stop the advantage players though, the bean counters that run things have made the game that much worse for the average tourist, who does not count cards. The analogy would be like the racetrack that increases the takeout, and we all know how that works out in the long run.

[delayjf]

INDEED. The game is one of runs. Get down low on the bad ones and start boosting when the dealer is busting on 3 cards. So many casinos now use the auto shuffler. Even if you're not an MIT grad , tough to do any counting...

That was exactly my approach, I gave up card counting - too much of a drain. I played 6 shoe face up games mostly and watched the cards as they came out.

[Robert Goren]

The counting was the easy part for me. I still say that anyone who was the first in their class to count to 100 or learn the addition tables can do it. The hard part is keeping focused and not getting caught. It takes a lot of effort and if you get out of the bottom limit games, you are going to get caught. I quit doing it after a couple of years. It wasn't worth the effort for the kind of money I made. It also wasn't worth the aggravation that other gave me.

[horses4courses]

I've worked in CS for the past 5 years.

In Lake Tahoe, we are pretty quiet when it comes to casino action, these days. Yet, card counters are everywhere.
If we backed them all off, the pit would be a ghost town.
Very few do it well, and even less manage their money properly.

Personally, if I were playing BJ seriously, I would seldom go near single deck.
Surveillance agents are watching those games like hawks, as they are the most vulnerable to hit and run counters. If you are going to count, learn to do it properly.

The best counters thrive on shoe games.
Slowly grinding away while the count remains neutral, or having spotter players do that for them, they know well that "the sky" is not going to count down every single shoe game - especially for lowish limits.
Players who suddenly start playing 2 or 3 hands at a time for increased stakes towards the end of a shoe are very dangerous to the house.

Good counters may not even alter their bets with the count. They may flat-bet with good-sized wagers on multiple hands for the longest time.
Inexperienced surveillance agents are lulled into a false sense of security because these players do not change their wagers at all.
Their edge is knowing the count, and altering their hit/stand strategy accordingly. These players hit on hands they are not supposed to, or stand in the reverse situation. With the count in their favor, their chips will steadily increase.

If you try your luck at serious BJ, as mentioned by others on here earlier, make sure you start with a sizeable bankroll. Do your homework, learn basic BJ strategy until it's automatic, and realize that it's not an easy living!
Good luck!

[BlueShoe]

In Lake Tahoe, we are pretty quiet when it comes to casino action, these days. Yet, card counters are everywhere.
If we backed them all off, the pit would be a ghost town.
Personally, if I were playing BJ seriously, I would seldom go near single deck.
Surveillance agents are watching those games like hawks, as they are the most vulnerable to hit and run counters.
If you try your luck at serious BJ, as mentioned by others on here earlier, make sure you start with a sizeable bankroll. Do your homework, learn basic BJ strategy until it's automatic, and realize that it's not an easy living!
Good luck!
For the most part, sd BJ has become unplayable in Nevada. Back when the rules were good, I enjoyed moderate success over a long period of time playing for mostly small stakes, mostly red chip action, occassional lite green. Pretty much quit the game when the bad rules and countermeasures came into being, and realized that I was working very hard for very little profit. Have never liked the shoe game, and were I to return to the game, would seek out a double deck game with good rules and decent penetration. On my last visit to Lake Tahoe, in June, did not play any BJ, just observed. The best pitch game seemed to be the one at the LS Inn, but because of this, it is likely closely hawked by the pit. I like the LS racebook because of their generous comp policies. Where I to take a fling at the crap table, again, the LS would be my choice.

[delayjf]

Slowly grinding away while the count remains neutral, or having spotter players do that for them, they know well that "the sky" is not going to count down every single shoe game - especially for lowish limits.That’s interesting; the casinos actually count the shoe’s themselves these days. Also, at your casino, what are considered “lowish limits”.

Good counters may not even alter their bets with the count. They may flat-bet with good-sized wagers on multiple hands for the longest time.
This brings to mind another facet of the game I think is very important, especially so if you flat bet – you will live or die based on your win rate when doubling down or splitting. In that regard, I would suggest a more conservative approach than what is currently advocated by basic strategy. You won’t split or double down as often but you will win more of those hands.
I have not really played BJ in many years so I was not aware the the BJ climate has deteriatied so. I guess since BJ no longer brings in the money it used to, its not surprizing.

H4C,
Are casinos threatened by craps players who attempt to line up and throw the dice in a controlled manner??

[horses4courses]

That’s interesting; the casinos actually count the shoe’s themselves these days. Also, at your casino, what are considered “lowish limits"

H4C,
Are casinos threatened by craps players who attempt to line up and throw the dice in a controlled manner??

It's quiet enough these days, that any black action will get our attention pretty quickly. Shoes are counted down as the need arises.

Dice sliding is always a threat. An experienced dealer, and any game with a pit boss in the box, will not tolerate dice manipulation.
On the other hand, dealers who are not so sharp, and who are getting "toked"
pretty well, are more likely to give the player freedom.
Lining up the dice is always allowed, provided they are being thrown properly.

[ldiatone]

It's quiet enough these days, that any black action will get our attention pretty quickly. Shoes are counted down as the need arises.

Dice sliding is always a threat. An experienced dealer, and any game with a pit boss in the box, will not tolerate dice manipulation.
On the other hand, dealers who are not so sharp, and who are getting "toked"
pretty well, are more likely to give the player freedom.
Lining up the dice is always allowed, provided they are being thrown properly.
but don't you think if one plays the single or double deck, and does not get too greedy, one can play and win? change casinos regularly and keep the bets modest?

[Robert Goren]

but don't you think if one plays the single or double deck, and does not get too greedy, one can play and win? change casinos regularly and keep the bets modest?It would also help if you could pass for a drunken sailor.;)

[Bettowin]

A friend of mine wins way more often than he loses and he basically plays his streaks real hard and bets the minimum or leaves the table when the table turns cold. He always starts with the same size stack and once a little bit ahead takes shots with the house's money. At Oaklawn he left up $4700 for the weekend with a $3000 win Saturday night. Got on a hot streak, got ahead $500 or so and started upping bets until he hit the $300 limit.

Most people won't double down with two cards totaling under 10 when the dealer has a 5 or 6 showing. Would you?


The hard thing is to know when to walk away:)

[Robert Goren]

A friend of mine wins way more often than he loses and he basically plays his streaks real hard and bets the minimum or leaves the table when the table turns cold. He always starts with the same size stack and once a little bit ahead takes shots with the house's money. At Oaklawn he left up $4700 for the weekend with a $3000 win Saturday night. Got on a hot streak, got ahead $500 or so and started upping bets until he hit the $300 limit.

Most people won't double down with two cards totaling under 10 when the dealer has a 5 or 6 showing. Would you?


The hard thing is to know when to walk away:)You always want put on a little act when ever you have a nine. Look to the sky, take another shot of booze and generally act like you haven't a clue on what to do with a nine. Maybe even ask the table "genius" what to do. Just do it with all nines. The answer is almost always.

[delayjf]

Most people won't double down with two cards totaling under 10 when the dealer has a 5 or 6 showing. Would you?
If I was up, I would take that shot. What I meant by conservative was that in double down / split situations I want two things working for me, I good probablility of hitting into a strong hand ie two card count of 11, 10, 9 and a good chance the dealer is stiff ie 6 or 5 showing.

The hard thing is to know when to walk away
No doubt, perhaps the greatest instinct one can possess IMO. If you start to get more and more stiffs or the dealer starts making his stiff hands - are good indications the game is about to go bad.

[Rutgers]

I have a question for you guys who are successful blackjack players: What makes you so good at the game? What I mean is, if so many people (like me) try to play by the book, every time, what is it that separates the top players from those of us who are casual players who win some, lose some, win some, lose some? What are some of the betting pitfalls that we should be wary of? Thanks to anyone who has the expertise to answer this question.

If you haven't already, you may want to read Barry Meadow's Blackjack Autumn:A True Tale of Life, Death and Splitting Tens in Winnemucca.

The book is basically a diary of his two month long trip to play BJ in every casino in Nevada. Since Mr. Meadow counts cards, the book does give the reader a glimpse at the day to day business of a card counter, and a little bit of what it takes to count cards hour after hour/day after day.

I found the book to be quite entertaining, as it isn't all about counting and playing BJ, but also about the people and places he came across.

[Rookies]

Most people won't double down with two cards totaling under 10 when the dealer has a 5 or 6 showing. Would you?

Foolish, imho. Very against the book, especially when that dealer has a 4/5 under. I leave tables if people start playing along those lines. I carry a simple strategy card to always remind myself of every situation.

[Robert Goren]

Most people won't double down with two cards totaling under 10 when the dealer has a 5 or 6 showing. Would you?

Foolish, imho. Very against the book, especially when that dealer has a 4/5 under. I leave tables if people start playing along those lines. I carry a simple strategy card to always remind myself of every situation. Never leave the the table when people betting poorly. Tell them how smart they are when they win a hand. Ask their advice. You need to do every thing possible to convince the dealer that you are dumbest person there and your winnings are just plain good luck. This thread almost put the fever in me to go to the casino. Then I took an aspirin and the fever went away.;)

[BlueShoe]

Most people won't double down with two cards totaling under 10 when the dealer has a 5 or 6 showing. Would you?
You always double down when holding a hard 9 against the dealer 5 or 6. When playing single or double deck you double hard 9 against the dealer 2 thru 6. In shoe games, 3 thru 6. You ALWAYS make this play. It does not matter how far in the hole you are, or how much you are up. It does not matter if there a table full of experts with you, or a bunch of apes, the play is made. This is correct basic stratagy, and was calculated decades ago by running millions of hands of computer simulations.

[delayjf]

Foolish, imho. Very against the book, especially when that dealer has a 4/5 under. I leave tables if people start playing along those lines. I carry a simple strategy card to always remind myself of every situation.

I understand that is the by the book play, but there is a reason the Casinos will allow you to play with a basic strategy card sitting on the table in plain view. I'm not aware of any professional BJ player who wins using basic strategy.

If your a flat betting card counter are you really going to double down with a low count?

[Robert Goren]

I understand that is the by the book play, but there is a reason the Casinos will allow you to play with a basic strategy card sitting on the table in plain view. I'm not aware of any professional BJ player who wins using basic strategy.

If your a flat betting card counter are you really going to double down with a low count?Casinos in Iowa pass out basic strategy cards.;)

[BlueShoe]

I'm not aware of any professional BJ player who wins using basic strategy.
If your a flat betting card counter are you really going to double down with a low count?
Perfect basic strategy is the foundation that any player that aspires to higher level play must know and follow by instinct. If you are an advanced counter and the deck is very minus, there may be times when doubling down is not the best play. The good blackjack books contain charts with hitting and standing indices relative to the count; I have several of these books. A player cannot win by flat betting and making basic strategy changes depending on the count, you must increase your bet sizes when the count is positive, the so called spread. The trick is getting away with it, making it look natural. The pit is alert to unusual spreads, it is the way they spot counters. And now, I must admit that I am having the same urges that RG mentioned above, after reading and posting on this thread have the itch to play again. Last night, after signing off, instead of going to bed, dug out a couple of my old BJ books and did some brushing up. Someone talk me out of this silly feeling and send me back to the racetrack.

[Robert Goren]

And now, I must admit that I am having the same urges that RG mentioned above, after reading and posting on this thread have the itch to play again. Last night, after signing off, instead of going to bed, dug out a couple of my old BJ books and did some brushing up. Someone talk me out of this silly feeling and send me back to the racetrack.In the words of Nancy Reagan "JUST SAY NO!"

[delayjf]

I'm getting flashbacks to my Vegas days as well. What a roller coaster ride playing BJ used to be. And I understand your point about basic strategy, I used to follow that religiously but I got a bit more conservative with my double downs and splits after taking a beating using their double down strategy. So I opted for a more conservative approach and for me it worked.

Can anyone tell me which counting system is now considered the best?

[BlueShoe]

I'm getting flashbacks to my Vegas days as well.

Help!, a virus has found its way to this thread, three of us are already infected!

[ldiatone]

If you haven't already, you may want to read Barry Meadow's Blackjack Autumn:A True Tale of Life, Death and Splitting Tens in Winnemucca.

The book is basically a diary of his two month long trip to play BJ in every casino in Nevada. Since Mr. Meadow counts cards, the book does give the reader a glimpse at the day to day business of a card counter, and a little bit of what it takes to count cards hour after hour/day after day.

I found the book to be quite entertaining, as it isn't all about counting and playing BJ, but also about the people and places he came across.

split 10's :lol: :lol:
i would lke to read this book

[BlueShoe]

split 10's :lol: :lol:
i would lke to read this book
Have not read Barrys book, but this play is not as crazy as it seems. Only two types of players would ever split ten value cards, extreme opposites, since ordinary players would never do this. First are total clueless dolts that know nothing about the game and play by hunches. The casino loves this type. The second are sharp card counters. When the count is very positive, and the dealer shows 4, 5, or 6, splitting 10's is the proper play. Very likely the player will have a large bet out because of the high count. However, if you make this play, you might just as well hang a sign around your neck saying that you are an expert counter. If your play is being watched, you are going to get barred, or at the very least, backed off. Experts advise against making this play, even when it is correct, because it is so obvious. Better to give up a little in order to be able to continue playing. Getting kicked out not a good idea.

[Robert Goren]

I used to split tens once in awhile even the count was bad if I had won lost 3 or 4 hands in a row and had the minimum bet out there and some jerk was mouthing off and I could count him to tell everyone what an idiot I was. It never hurts to tarnish your image. I like to sit at the end of a table and hit some very close, but hands where everyone stays on, just to get something started.

[BlueShoe]

I used to split tens once in awhile even the count was bad. It never hurts to tarnish your image.
Yep, some very sharp players will make an occasional camouflage play like this when having a small bet out. Gives the impression that you are just another dumb player. If you are ahead, it is just chalked up as being lucky. Just make sure that the floorman sees you make the bad play.

[The Hawk]

And now, I must admit that I am having the same urges that RG mentioned above, after reading and posting on this thread have the itch to play again. Last night, after signing off, instead of going to bed, dug out a couple of my old BJ books and did some brushing up. Someone talk me out of this silly feeling and send me back to the racetrack.

Sorry for starting the thread, but I must admit I'm glad I did, lots of good information from you guys. Thanks to all.

[ldiatone]

Have not read Barrys book, but this play is not as crazy as it seems. Only two types of players would ever split ten value cards, extreme opposites, since ordinary players would never do this. First are total clueless dolts that know nothing about the game and play by hunches. The casino loves this type. The second are sharp card counters. When the count is very positive, and the dealer shows 4, 5, or 6, splitting 10's is the proper play. Very likely the player will have a large bet out because of the high count. However, if you make this play, you might just as well hang a sign around your neck saying that you are an expert counter. If your play is being watched, you are going to get barred, or at the very least, backed off. Experts advise against making this play, even when it is correct, because it is so obvious. Better to give up a little in order to be able to continue playing. Getting kicked out not a good idea.
your point is well noted! :blush:

[Robert Goren]

Sorry for starting the thread, but I must admit I'm glad I did, lots of good information from you guys. Thanks to all.Actually I am glad you started it too. It is kind of fun to post on something other politics or the sorry state of NY and CA racing.:)

[BlueShoe]

Can anyone tell me which counting system is now considered the best?
There is no one best answer to this, it is rather like asking which handicapping method is best. Much depends on the skill level of the player and how hard he is willing to work. The advanced most efficient systems often have multi level counts and hundreds of decision indices. All of the experts agree that it is far, far better to play a simple, slightly less efficient system well, without making errors, than it is to play a better system badly. Were I to return to game again today, I would play what is called the High-Low Lite. This is the old simple plus minus or Dubner High Low invented decades ago. Most of the strategy variations have been eliminated in favor of just following basic strategy. Computer sims found that only a few of the more common ones mattered, such as hard doubling and standing.

[delayjf]

I played a simple hi / low revere count. But that was some time ago. Now that casinos are paying 6-5 on blackjacks - is it still a good percentage play to never get insurance??

[BlueShoe]

I played a simple hi / low revere count. But that was some time ago. Now that casinos are paying 6-5 on blackjacks - is it still a good percentage play to never get insurance??
First of all, never, ever play a single hand at a sd table that pays 6-5. The game is unbeatable even for the best players on the planet. A 6 deck shoe game, or better still, a double deck game is much better, provided of course, that they pay 3-2 on bjs. Insurance is the proper play when the deck is in plus territory. Here is a good link to the Hi-Low Lite.
www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/hilolite.htm (http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/hilolite.htm)

[Lefty]

No casino has paid 2-1 on BJ's for many many yrs. But I agree, don't take the 6-5 payout. Only play where they pay 3-2 for BJ's.

[BlueShoe]

No casino has paid 2-1 on BJ's for many many yrs. But I agree, don't take the 6-5 payout. Only play where they pay 3-2 for BJ's.
I must be getting older than I thought to make a mistake like that. Now edited. No casino has ever paid 2-1 with one quirky exception that I wont go into. Your last sentence, is, of course, correct.

[Rookies]

Just make sure that the floorman sees you make the bad play.

:ThmbUp: :lol:

And I was incorrect about the Hrd 9 v.s. 5/6, Blue Shoe. Yes, indeed: DOUBLE TROUBLE is the answer. Some other odd ones for players to overcome their reluctance are Hitting on Hard 12 v.s. D's 2 AND 3.

And who HASN'T had the Payoff going one way and back the other at the end with the apprentice Dealer ? Happened to me at O'Sheas.:) 'Natch, she was yanked shortly thereafter... :lol:

[BlueShoe]

Sorry for starting the thread, but I must admit I'm glad I did, lots of good information from you guys. Thanks to all.
Sorry? Not at all, it has been one of the better ones in quite some time. Several of us have really enjoyed it, and actively posted. We horseplayers often have a background in other gambling forms, and going back can be pleasant. This thread has pretty much run its course and died down, but the info, opinions, and humor have been fun. Now if only I could remember what I did with that book, the one with the chart of pair spliting indices, I need to brush up a bit----.:)