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Hanover1
04-15-2010, 04:13 PM
This spring. Last out was a dismal 5th I believe in allowance company at Gulfstream. Clearly not herself for several of the last months. I would look closely at her foals in the sales ring.....

sonnyp
04-15-2010, 04:49 PM
where's the press release, phony tan, news conference, and bodyguard for this IEAH MOVE ????

joanied
04-15-2010, 04:58 PM
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2010/April/15/Stardom-Bound-retired.aspx

I had a feeling this was coming... I'd like to know what went wrong with this filly...and I won't agree to someone saying she's like so many 2 yr olds that don't regain their form...she was too good.
But, whatever the reason, I am kinda bummed because I was in hopes she would come back and win a few more races...
I do think that Big Brown is a good choice, as I am sure they did their homework and this mating will be a good one....and if they decide to sell this resulting foal...the price tag should be high...after all, both are champions.

Stardom Bound & Big brown...a hot :eek: time in the old town tonight:jump:

Spalding No!
04-15-2010, 05:11 PM
I'd like to know what went wrong with this filly...and I won't agree to someone saying she's like so many 2 yr olds that don't regain their form...she was too good.

Weren't Storm Flag Flying, Sweet Catomine, and Halfbridled "too good" also?

To me, her decline was not nearly as surprising as those others (Sweet Catomine might actually have been OK, but was retired seemingly out of spite by Martin Wygod).

Not only was she racing on sythetics, and ultimately exposed outside CA, but she also hailed from Christopher Paasch's barn which has a strong track record for burning out horses by the end of their 2yo year (eg Principle Secret, Kamsack, She's Included, Prime Ruler, Cosmic Queen, Hello Lucky, etc.).

joanied
04-15-2010, 07:12 PM
Weren't Storm Flag Flying, Sweet Catomine, and Halfbridled "too good" also?

To me, her decline was not nearly as surprising as those others (Sweet Catomine might actually have been OK, but was retired seemingly out of spite by Martin Wygod).

Not only was she racing on sythetics, and ultimately exposed outside CA, but she also hailed from Christopher Paasch's barn which has a strong track record for burning out horses by the end of their 2yo year (eg Principle Secret, Kamsack, She's Included, Prime Ruler, Cosmic Queen, Hello Lucky, etc.).

Sweet Catomine's being retired was one crazy deal...spite would be a good way of putting it:) but...

Halfbridled retired because she had a huge problem with tieing up.
Storm Flag Flying was retired because she sustained a small fracture to her right hind leg.

Jeremy Jet
04-15-2010, 10:09 PM
Great! The resulting offspring should be capable of racing at least four or five times before breaking down.

Thoughtful breeding at its finest.

Paseana
04-15-2010, 11:14 PM
Weren't Storm Flag Flying, Sweet Catomine, and Halfbridled "too good" also

Just a reminder here......

While Storm Flag Flying had a forgettable 3yo season, suffering the only off-the-board finish of her career in the 2003 Acorn (second of only 2 starts that year), she returned to run 8 races as a 4yo. She ran in one O-C, 2 GIIs, and 5 GIs and recorded 3 wins, 2 seconds, and 3 thirds. One of her victories was in the 10f GI Personal Ensign, beating Azeri in the process, and one of her seconds was in her last race.....in the BC Distaff behind Ashado.

She really was a 2yo Filly Champion that did, in fact, train on.

Spalding No!
04-15-2010, 11:35 PM
Just a reminder here......

While Storm Flag Flying had a forgettable 3yo season, suffering the only off-the-board finish of her career in the 2003 Acorn (second of only 2 starts that year), she returned to run 8 races as a 4yo. She ran in one O-C, 2 GIIs, and 5 GIs and recorded 3 wins, 2 seconds, and 3 thirds. One of her victories was in the 10f GI Personal Ensign, beating Azeri in the process, and one of her seconds was in her last race.....in the BC Distaff behind Ashado.

She really was a 2yo Filly Champion that did, in fact, train on.

As solid as she was at 4, she was mainly a bridesmaid at the upper levels and certainly didn't not fulfill the promise she displayed at 2. McGaughey has had a few of his horses have sudden loss of form much more dramatic than SFF's at 3, however. Miner's Mark and My Flag as 4yos and Rhythm early at 3 (he was horrendous at 4 as well) come to mind.

Stardom Bound won 2 Grade 1's as a 3yo, so it's not like she suffered an utter collapse in form. On speed figures at 2 she was slow, and she stayed that way, so altogether it was no real surprise.

Halfbridled was really the only one out of the group that you might call perplexing.

Paseana
04-16-2010, 12:50 AM
Halfbridled was really the only one out of the group that you might call perplexing.

I completely agree there. Joanied referred to her problems with tying up, and I think I do recall hearing something about that. I also vaguely remember something about back problems with her, though I might be wrong.

I just wonder if the thing with Halfbridled was her size. I don't think I've ever seen, in person, a 2yo filly competing on the track that was as big as she was. She was a 2yo, for pete's sake, that stood 17 hands......or it seemed like it anyway. Manistique was a behemoth also, but I don't think she ever raced at two. Again, my memory might be failing me there.

The point is, though, that perhaps a filly of her size competing at the top level of her generation at only 2 years of age is a recipe for problems when turning 3. The physiological development that happens with horses in that transition is well documented, and maybe what happened with Halfbridled is the reason that most over-sized 2yos have delayed career starts......see "Zenyatta".

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

hibiscus
04-16-2010, 01:17 AM
where's the press release, phony tan, news conference, and bodyguard for this IEAH MOVE ????
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

GARY Z
04-16-2010, 04:52 AM
the filly ran miserably when she discovered Mike was on another mount



:eek: :confused: :eek:

sandpit
04-16-2010, 07:24 AM
where's the press release, phony tan, news conference, and bodyguard for this IEAH MOVE ????

Rest assured that if Jess Jackson owned her, we would have gotten the press conference announcing she was on her way to Curlin.

joanied
04-16-2010, 10:22 AM
I completely agree there. Joanied referred to her problems with tying up, and I think I do recall hearing something about that. I also vaguely remember something about back problems with her, though I might be wrong.

I just wonder if the thing with Halfbridled was her size. I don't think I've ever seen, in person, a 2yo filly competing on the track that was as big as she was. She was a 2yo, for pete's sake, that stood 17 hands......or it seemed like it anyway. Manistique was a behemoth also, but I don't think she ever raced at two. Again, my memory might be failing me there.

The point is, though, that perhaps a filly of her size competing at the top level of her generation at only 2 years of age is a recipe for problems when turning 3. The physiological development that happens with horses in that transition is well documented, and maybe what happened with Halfbridled is the reason that most over-sized 2yos have delayed career starts......see "Zenyatta".

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

I have no doubt her size played a big part in her problems...and we all know about those Unbridled Song's...but IMO, if they'd waited until she turned 3, she may have gone on to a much longer race career...such a talented filly. her problems with tieing up can certainly be tied to back problems...I haven't got much respect for any owner/trainer that races a 2 yr old that has such size as she did...IMO, Zenyatta may not be what she is today if they'd rushed her as a 2 yr old.

joanied
04-16-2010, 10:27 AM
Great! The resulting offspring should be capable of racing at least four or five times before breaking down.

Thoughtful breeding at its finest.

There is just as good a chance that the resulting foal will have good feet as not.
She obviously is a good 'nick' with BB, so they will take a chance...plus the fact that it seems most breeders don't give a damn about such things...they just want a runner! But I wouldn't jump to the absolute conclusion that the foal will have bad feet.

Spalding No!
04-16-2010, 10:40 AM
I have no doubt her size played a big part in her problems...and we all know about those Unbridled Song's...but IMO, if they'd waited until she turned 3, she may have gone on to a much longer race career...such a talented filly. her problems with tieing up can certainly be tied to back problems...I haven't got much respect for any owner/trainer that races a 2 yr old that has such size as she did...IMO, Zenyatta may not be what she is today if they'd rushed her as a 2 yr old.

Halfbridled was by Unbridled, not Unbridled's Song.

toetoe
04-16-2010, 12:13 PM
Clearly not herself for several of the last months.



I disagree vehemently. I maintain that she is by far the worst runner ever to win five ( :eek: ) Grade I races. She's also arguably worse than the following underachievers and/or tomato-can-beaters:

Favorite Trick;

Ashado;

Commendable;

Gato Del Sol;

Giacomo;

Rick's Natural Star (just kidding about the last one ;) ).



My prediction stands: she will never win again. If I'm wrong, I won't be too crestfallen. If she actually wins sometime, it may signify improvement or a killer's instinct. :jump: .

Jeremy Jet
04-16-2010, 02:06 PM
There is just as good a chance that the resulting foal will have good feet as not.
She obviously is a good 'nick' with BB, so they will take a chance...plus the fact that it seems most breeders don't give a damn about such things...they just want a runner! But I wouldn't jump to the absolute conclusion that the foal will have bad feet.


I wasn't referring only to BB's (and his sire's by the way) predisposition to bad feet, but also to SB having been unsound throughout her career. Perhaps you weren't aware of that.

Breeding unsound mares to unsound stallions is dumb, unless you are planning to sell the mare and/or resulting foal, in which case it is simply selfish.

joanied
04-16-2010, 08:50 PM
Halfbridled was by Unbridled, not Unbridled's Song.

oopps :blush: Correct.

PaceAdvantage
04-17-2010, 12:04 AM
where's the press release, phony tan, news conference, and bodyguard for this IEAH MOVE ????Like clockwork you are.

nijinski
04-17-2010, 12:53 AM
Blame it on the Breeders Cup Juvey Jinx.

Anyway Stardom Brown is in the nerar future.

Cat Thief
04-17-2010, 01:00 PM
...and Unbridled's Song feet were due to quarter cracks and I do not know if quarter cracks are a genetic defect?

joanied
04-17-2010, 01:29 PM
...and Unbridled's Song feet were due to quarter cracks and I do not know if quarter cracks are a genetic defect?

'They' are still researching this...in BB's case, he may have inheritied from his sire...but there is yet to be any proof that it is indeed hereditary...although for some reason, maybe genetics, we are having more and more foot issues with horses.

Spalding No!
04-17-2010, 02:37 PM
'They' are still researching this...in BB's case, he may have inheritied from his sire...but there is yet to be any proof that it is indeed hereditary...although for some reason, maybe genetics, we are having more and more foot issues with horses.

That was about as slippery as trying to catch a fish out of water while stilt walking...

joanied
04-17-2010, 02:59 PM
I wasn't referring only to BB's (and his sire's by the way) predisposition to bad feet, but also to SB having been unsound throughout her career. Perhaps you weren't aware of that.

Breeding unsound mares to unsound stallions is dumb, unless you are planning to sell the mare and/or resulting foal, in which case it is simply selfish.

Now who would not agree with that...I hope you don't think I am advocating breeding unsound to unsound.
And let's not foget...a foal isn't going to necessarily inherit any good or bad traits from the sire and/or dam directly...the rest of the pedigree comes into play...
I knew Stardom Bound had some soundess issues...but don't know what they may have been...did she have bad feet? That would be important info here.

johnhannibalsmith
04-17-2010, 03:08 PM
...I knew Stardom Bound had some soundess issues...but don't know what they may have been...did she have bad feet? That would be important info here.

I believe it was ankle problems (issues for Zil). I hate to offer up an answer without being 100% certain, but sometimes my brain can still be trusted to puke up information that it has accurately. It would come as a great relief to my self-doubting brain if someone can corroborate this.

Hanover1
04-17-2010, 03:42 PM
I disagree vehemently. I maintain that she is by far the worst runner ever to win five ( :eek: ) Grade I races. She's also arguably worse than the following underachievers and/or tomato-can-beaters:

Favorite Trick;

Ashado;

Commendable;

Gato Del Sol;

Giacomo;

Rick's Natural Star (just kidding about the last one ;) ).



My prediction stands: she will never win again. If I'm wrong, I won't be too crestfallen. If she actually wins sometime, it may signify improvement or a killer's instinct. :jump: .
Umm...retired?

joanied
04-17-2010, 05:18 PM
I believe it was ankle problems (issues for Zil). I hate to offer up an answer without being 100% certain, but sometimes my brain can still be trusted to puke up information that it has accurately. It would come as a great relief to my self-doubting brain if someone can corroborate this.

I know what you mean...and I suppose, unless there is someone here that knows for certain...ankle issues would be a good guess. And we also know that ankle issues can develope from any number of things...obviously BB had good legs, just bad tootsies...but, who knows...breeding is a carp shoot at best...maybe this will be a great pairing and the foal will have a career free of injury...we cab bet on one thing...IEAH did their homework, a lot will be riding on this one particular foal...the pros & cons must have been gone over with a fine tooth comb.
:)

Spalding No!
04-17-2010, 05:39 PM
we cab bet on one thing...IEAH did their homework, a lot will be riding on this one particular foal...the pros & cons must have been gone over with a fine tooth comb.
:)

Less than a week ago, Stardom Bound was still in race training. Have they really had time to go over everything with a fine tooth comb?

Isn't it a little too convenient that they choose to breed their prize filly to their prize colt? Furthermore, aren't they kind of tossing Stardom Bound into the breeding program (if they even have one) at the 11th hour? Will she even get in foal, having just come off the track, at an ideal date? Depending on this latter scenario, there's the possibility of having a late foal next year, which can have repercussions for her future produce record.

From here it looks like, just as with her recent race record, they are throwing yet another desperate Hail Mary and hoping for a miracle.

joanied
04-17-2010, 05:52 PM
Less than a week ago, Stardom Bound was still in race training. Have they really had time to go over everything with a fine tooth comb?

Isn't it a little too convenient that they choose to breed their prize filly to their prize colt? Furthermore, aren't they kind of tossing Stardom Bound into the breeding program (if they even have one) at the 11th hour? Will she even get in foal, having just come off the track, at an ideal date? Depending on this latter scenario, there's the possibility of having a late foal next year, which can have repercussions for her future produce record.

From here it looks like, just as with her recent race record, they are throwing yet another desperate Hail Mary and hoping for a miracle.

I bet the instant they bought her, they started thinking of her covered by BB...and I would think that did go over everything with a fine tooth comb, way in advance of them deciding now to retire her to the shed...

yes, it's late...IF they can force her into her cylce as soon as she gets to the farm, IF she settles, IF she goes to term, they'd get a late April foal....then, if all goes well, get her bred back on the foal heat, or give her a couple of weeks, then force her back into heat to gain a few weeks for foal #2...
not the way I'd do it, not the way any responsible breeder would do it...

Also...just because they said she's going to BB, that doesn't mean it's for this breeding season...if they want it done the right way, then they turn her out until next breeding season...that is what I would do. We really don't know if she'll be bred now or next year...do we?

Spalding No!
04-17-2010, 06:27 PM
We really don't know if she'll be bred now or next year...do we?

Surely after all the rug soiling going on in this thread "we" can't cry constipation now.

You must be in a unique position to either confirm or disconfirm this suspicion.

Perhaps your thinking on this case has become too uptight. A healthy drug regimen of thai sticks and White Russians should keep your mind limber enough to crack it.

Let me know if you want to pool resources. I'm also an Irish monk.

toetoe
04-17-2010, 06:35 PM
Umm...retired?



Surely you believe I can be several days behind the news ... :blush: .

toetoe
04-17-2010, 06:37 PM
Hey, I get it now ! She is to be bred to Big Brown ! Duh !!! (:drooling.)

sonnyp
04-17-2010, 06:41 PM
where's the press release, phony tan, news conference, and bodyguard for this IEAH MOVE ????

pace:
Like clockwork you are.

spalding no :
From here it looks like, just as with her recent race record, they are throwing yet another desperate Hail Mary and hoping for a miracle.




obviously, my negative comments about IEAH, which are consistent, are an irritation to pace. he seems reasonable and knowledgable and certainly has every right to his opinions as i feel i do.

perhaps our different "view" on IEAH is simply a matter of taste. to each his own.

again, this outfit had tremendous fortune early in it's existence and it allowed them to make a "big splash" in the industry. they capitalized on their fortune, as well they should have, to the limit. some, including myself, found their flamboyance abrasive.

as time has gone bye, their "successes" have been overshadowed by their "failures". the bottom line on this is still to be determined. my post was a comment on the obvious difference with which they approach their negatives compared to positives.

in my opinion, IEAH is far more "show than go" and we will , as "spalding no" mentions, witness many more "hail marys" such as what may be surrounding stardom bound in their future endeavors.

toetoe
04-17-2010, 06:41 PM
White Russians



Hey O-T-M Al,

Remember the three white Russians --- and the one brown one :jump: --- that we met on our 2008 Greenwich Village pub crawl ? Yeah, baby. ;) O-T-M: On The Make ? :D .

I remember trying --- and failing --- to go toe to toe with you, Sir.

O-T-M Chris: One Too Many ? (:Hic.)

joanied
04-17-2010, 07:48 PM
Surely after all the rug soiling going on in this thread "we" can't cry constipation now.

You must be in a unique position to either confirm or disconfirm this suspicion.

Perhaps your thinking on this case has become too uptight. A healthy drug regimen of thai sticks and White Russians should keep your mind limber enough to crack it.

Let me know if you want to pool resources. I'm also an Irish monk.

From my quote below, you reply with the above...:confused:

Quote:
Originally Posted by joanied
We really don't know if she'll be bred now or next year...do we?

Spalding No!
04-17-2010, 08:11 PM
[color=darkred]
We really don't know if she'll be bred now or next year...do we?

Joanied, you're out of your element. The quote is not the issue here.

Your roll.

PaceAdvantage
04-17-2010, 11:13 PM
Joanied, you're out of your element. The quote is not the issue here.

Your roll.This message board is filled with people possessing a variety of levels of knowledge and ability.

I'm not sure what the benefit is of coming down hard on joanied like this, other than to scare away folks who might not be experts in a particular field, but would like to engage in the conversation nonetheless.

Relwob Owner
04-18-2010, 12:17 AM
This message board is filled with people possessing a variety of levels of knowledge and ability.

I'm not sure what the benefit is of coming down hard on joanied like this, other than to scare away folks who might not be experts in a particular field, but would like to engage in the conversation nonetheless.



:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Cardus
04-18-2010, 12:28 AM
This message board is filled with people possessing a variety of levels of knowledge and ability.

I'm not sure what the benefit is of coming down hard on joanied like this, other than to scare away folks who might not be experts in a particular field, but would like to engage in the conversation nonetheless.

However, I learned a lot more from this thread because Spalding No! picked apart Joanied's posts.

There is value in that.

And do you think so little of people's intellectual mettle that this type of exchange scares away other folks?

PaceAdvantage
04-18-2010, 12:38 AM
And do you think so little of people's intellectual mettle that this type of exchange scares away other folks?If it's repeated often enough, as seems to be the case lately?

There is a nasty undertone to this...it isn't simply an exchange of ideas and/or a rebuttal of theory.

WinterTriangle
04-18-2010, 04:34 AM
Joanied, you're out of your element.

Hmm. I find it strange that somebody would say Joanied was out of her element, since she owns horses, has bred horses, and worked the backside out in CA for quite a number of years. She's also pretty knowledeable about American broodmares and their descendants.

Curious as to if you have any significant involvement in the business?

Anyway, here's the fresh Brownies out of the oven to enjoy:

http://www.threechimneys.com/BigBrown/firstfoals.php

Spalding No!
04-18-2010, 09:25 AM
Curious as to if you have any significant involvement in the business?


My ex-wife has a pomeranian that I sometimes takes care of.

It has papers.

Please don't step over the line on this.

Spalding No!
04-18-2010, 09:49 AM
There is a nasty undertone to this...it isn't simply an exchange of ideas and/or a rebuttal of theory.

Actually, if you follow the thread from the beginning, my first few posts were simple rebuttal's of her theories qualified with at least some verifiable information to back up my contentions.

All those elicited were more fluff, half-truths, and rabbits out of hats. Did you not realize that the entire BS on quarter-cracks partly originated because it was incorrectly posted that Unbridled's Song was the sire of Halfbridled?

Her condescending back-pedal on the Big Brown-Stardom Bound mating (it was reported, of course, that the filly would be bred this spring) proved there was no stopping this juggernaut of misinformation.

So accept this as my white flag.

As far as your people of "variable" knowledge and abilities (how tactful of you), anyone with common sense who feels inadequate amongst these titans would probably (a) do a little research before posting or, more simply, (b) ask questions.

Unfortunately, with the latter option, joanied is usually the one to answer them.

joanied
04-18-2010, 11:59 AM
Spalding No....


I beleive you decided to jump on my post because I made a an error in saying Halfbridled was by US...and I acknowledged my mistake...I suppose mistakes are not allowed. But that filly was not the basis of the thread...so IMO, it was not a big deal...obviously it was for you.

YOU made it about Halfbridled...I tried to stay on topic in discussing the breeding of Stardom Bound to Big Brown...and that the resulting foal would not necessarily 'inherit' his bad feet...as discussed after you mentioned she had some issues with her ankle...which I replied that a bad ankle had nothing to do with bad feet.

Yep...I missed that SB is to be bred this Spring...:blush: so my 'juggernaut' of misinformation was that I missed that she was to be bred this Spring, and that Halfbridled was by Unbridled, not US, although she is not the topic of the thread.



Just how much more patronizing can you be...lest we forget that you are perfect, never make a mistake and know all...and beleive me, I do not feel the least inadequate...ask questions...I missed something and named a wrong sire..and I suppose you research every post before you reply...give me a break...you simply decided to go after me, which you have done before...no surprise there...generally, when someone here makes a mistake, others simply correct it with out making that person feel stupid or...in adequate.

I have been a 'horse person' almost all my life...been involved in racing since the 60's... I worked at Belmont Park (and Bay Meadows for a time), I lived and worked on a TB breeding farm in Ocala, I have my own horses, and I had a breeding operation for a decade. You have no idea of how educated I am about horses and racing...you have no justification in saying my posts are half truths, fluff or rabbits out of hats (whatever that means)...and I will answer any questions I feel qualified to...or give my opinion.

so...maybe you need to get off that high horse you are on...try being nice for a change...it'd probably make you feel better.

Ian Meyers
04-18-2010, 12:21 PM
From here it looks like, just as with her recent race record, they are throwing yet another desperate Hail Mary and hoping for a miracle.


What other options did they have? She looked dramatically underweight before her last start at KEE and obviously something isn't right with her and hasn't been for a while judging by her races. She'd probably fetch about 10% of the $5+mm they paid for her if they sold her as a broodmare.

I'm sure the IEAH partners aren't thrilled at how this turned out, but they made a pragmatic business decision based on the current market conditions.

Spalding No!
04-18-2010, 12:23 PM
What other options did they have? She looked dramatically underweight before her last start at KEE and obviously something isn't right with her and hasn't been for a while judging by her races. She'd probably fetch about 10% of the $5+mm they paid for her if they sold her as a broodmare.

I think IEAH made the only choice they could make.

The Hail Mary was in reference to her being bred to Big Brown, not to her being retired.

Certainly there were more choices as far as covering stallion was concerned.

GlenninOhio
04-18-2010, 12:48 PM
The Hail Mary was in reference to her being bred to Big Brown, not to her being retired.

Certainly there were more choices as far as covering stallion was concerned.

I would suggest there were more choices than simply to whom to breed her.

If she were owned by an outfit that was not so much in the public eye and not as image conscious, it would be a legitmate option to consider selling her. If it is true as Ian Meyers speculates in this thread that she is worth about $500k, then (without going too far afield into finance) this is what the marketplace is saying is the "net present value" of her future progeny. So it comes down to whether you want to take the $500k and run, or make a potential lifetime investment in her as a broodmare and take your chances on selling or racing her produce. Which in essence comes down to whether you feel you know something the marketplace that's pricing her at $500k doesn't know.

Of course, in the case of IEAH selling her was not an option, because this would be admitting they were wrong in buying her in the first place.