Derby Karma For Zayat

[PhantomOnTour]

Let's get one thing straight: I am not a fan of Ahmed Zayat. If you are, then you may want to stop reading. Okay, now that the disclaimer is out of the way...

I am banking on the Gods Of Racing to deny Zayat the Roses on 1May. He is of reprehensible moral character to me, and I still haven't forgiven his attempt to keep Rachel out of last years' Preakness. Would he have done the same if the 7th place finisher from the Oaks had decided to enter the Preakness? Hmmm? He knew Pioneer couldn't handle Rachel...and speaking of Pioneerof The Nile, it's karma that retired him, imo. Gods say,"You attempt to keep a great filly like Rachel from running? Now it's your horse who won't run anymore." The irony is palpable!!
While I don't want Eskendereya to get hurt or to retire, I am hoping he doesn't run well at CD.

Think I'm nuts? See my Super Bowl post about the Gods Of Football denying an unrighteous franchise like the Colts a victory over a righteous, suffering franchise like the Saints...it happens. If Katrina had hit Indianapolis the Colts would have left...peroid.

We all know the best/fastes/classiest horse doesn't always win....and what a chance at a good score if this one doesn't win also. This race (like the Super Bowl) may not be about X's and O's or speed figs, but rather about righting things in the universe.

At least I know the Fifth Third Bank is on my side :lol:

[WinterTriangle]

While I don't want Eskendereya to get hurt or to retire, I am hoping he doesn't run well at CD.

I don't relate to hoping somebody doesn't win something, esp. if it has no bearing on me directly. I once didn't want a certain coworker to get a promotion, only because I was up for the same job.

I have always found it a more positive frame of mind to put my efforts toward being *for* something, which is the subtle flip-side of being against something----mostly because it seems to yield a better outcome with a better feeling to it.

As a *goal*, working toward that which you want to happen just seems like a healthier thing to focus on?

I say that about life in general.

[PhantomOnTour]

I don't relate to hoping somebody doesn't win something, esp. if it has no bearing on me directly. I once didn't want a certain coworker to get a promotion, only because I was up for the same job.

I have always found it a more positive frame of mind to put my efforts toward being *for* something, which is the subtle flip-side of being against something----mostly because it seems to yield a better outcome with a better feeling to it.

As a *goal*, working toward that which you want to happen just seems like a healthier thing to focus on?

I say that about life in general.
It will have a direct bearing on me as I will be betting money on the race...seen?

You root for Biancone? Stronach? Ernie Paragallo?

[WinterTriangle]

You root for Biancone? Stronach? Ernie Paragallo?

you obviously missed the meaning of my post entirely.

Can you explain why anyone would spend more energy or give more thought----- to something they do not want, than on something they do want?




I root for, follow, support, those in racing who I believe in, both morally and otherwise. It makes rooting against the ones I don't like a moot and useless endeavor.

[PhantomOnTour]

Okay, so I started a thread about how I hope the Gods defeat Esky in the Derby because I am not a fan of his owner, Zayat, and because he will be the chalk. Don't take that as an image of how I approach the game...just rootin against the bad guys all the time. Heck, I bet on Esky in the Ftn Of Youth and I have a pool 1 future bet on him at 22-1, but I stand to make more than my measly $10 future bet if I can beat him on Derby day. That possible score COMBINED with Zayat losing with a heavy fave would be icing on the cake.

I don't think you are a bettor (may have you confused with another poster) and we therefore see the game from different viewpoints...do you bet? And what is your opinion of Ahmed Zayat? What is your opinion of he and Allens' coup to keep Rachel out of the Preakness?

Whenever I make a bet against the chalk, esp in a spread situation or P3,4,6 I am often solely rooting against the favorite. There are times in short fields where I will use everyone but the heavy chalk when playing doubles, P3, etc.

Believe me though, I am not on an anti-bad guy crusade, and I don't want to gripe with you as I respect your viewpoint here on the site, but it's always sweeter when I win AND the bad guy (imo) loses.

[Hanover1]

I for one, don't give a hoot who owns what in this game. Look at recent sales figures, this guy is a heavy hitter, and as such, deserves respect for his dollars that support many of us that survive to race. His personal dealings are of no concern to me. It is the horsemen who are responsible for putting the product on the track, and racing at the best level possible. Without his supply of product and cash, you have no product to watch, and I have no job. Many a scoundrel has owned horses, from Lucky Luciano on down, and it was always more of a curiosity and attention getter for the sport rather than a distain for the game. Many a rich man made his spoils at the expense of others, while we make our spoils at their expense. Much as the bettor makes his spoils at our expense, given in the form of sweat and time.
To wish this horse some misgivings is shortsighted........

[PhantomOnTour]

Are you a bettor? A horseman? Both?

[Hanover1]

Horseman. Were I strictly a bettor, I would feel the same.

[thaskalos]

I for one, don't give a hoot who owns what in this game. Look at recent sales figures, this guy is a heavy hitter, and as such, deserves respect for his dollars that support many of us that survive to race. His personal dealings are of no concern to me. It is the horsemen who are responsible for putting the product on the track, and racing at the best level possible. Without his supply of product and cash, you have no product to watch, and I have no job. Many a scoundrel has owned horses, from Lucky Luciano on down, and it was always more of a curiosity and attention getter for the sport rather than a distain for the game. Many a rich man made his spoils at the expense of others, while we make our spoils at their expense. Much as the bettor makes his spoils at our expense, given in the form of sweat and time.
To wish this horse some misgivings is shortsighted........ How does the bettor make his spoils at your expense, Hanover1?? Should we blame you for our losses then??

[Hanover1]

How does the bettor make his spoils at your expense, Hanover1?? Should we blame you for our losses then??
Blame yourself for backing the wrong horse.

[thaskalos]

So, the trainers put in the time and the sweat, and then the horseplayers walk in and take all the money, right?? How do you think the horseplayers GET the money that they wager so that the game can continue to exist?? Don't we put in time and sweat also? Horse owners are not the only ones who go to their pockets you know...

[Hanover1]

How does the bettor make his spoils at your expense, Hanover1?? Should we blame you for our losses then??
"Given in the form of sweat and time" should have been the tip-off......

[PhantomOnTour]

Horseman. Were I strictly a bettor, I would feel the same.
That's why we see things differently. There is little reason for horseplayers to associate with horsemen, esp on race day.

If not for us you would be racing for blue ribbons at county fairs.

[Hanover1]

So, the trainers put in the time and the sweat, and then the horseplayers walk in and take all the money, right?? How do you think the horseplayers GET the money that they wager so that the game can continue to exist?? Don't we put in time and sweat also? Horse owners are not the only ones who go to their pockets you know...
Not sure where you want to go with this post....Do you suspect that after over 35 years in the business, I am unaware of the concept of what I do for a living? This post was started as a slant on Mr. Zayat. How did we arrive here? You either hope the mans horse runs poorly because you disapprove of him, or you attempt to offer another light on the meaning of owners and their participation in the sport. My response was directly related to the thread. Have yet to see anything in your responses to this post that are pertinent to this....veiled displeasure/distrust of trainers perhaps? Or do you feel you don't get enough respect as a bettor? Another thread perhaps????

[Hanover1]

That's why we see things differently. There is little reason for horseplayers to associate with horsemen, esp on race day.

If not for us you would be racing for blue ribbons at county fairs.
It is considered a conflict of interest on our part to associate with bettors on a regular basis as well, we get accused of race fixing. If we raced at county fairs, you would bet......they allow it at many county fairs. We see things differently because we are 2 seperate entities. Why throw horseracing into the mix?

[thaskalos]

Not sure where you want to go with this post....Do you suspect that after over 35 years in the business, I am unaware of the concept of what I do for a living? This post was started as a slant on Mr. Zayat. How did we arrive here? You either hope the mans horse runs poorly because you disapprove of him, or you attempt to offer another light on the meaning of owners and their participation in the sport. My response was directly related to the thread. Have yet to see anything in your responses to this post that are pertinent to this....veiled displeasure/distrust of trainers perhaps? Or do you feel you don't get enough respect as a bettor? Another thread perhaps???? You stated in post #6 above, that "the bettor makes his spoils at your expense, given in the form of sweat and time."

How does that have anything to do with Mr. Zayat? it was you who strayed off topic. My comment was in response to your statement that we profit off your sweat.

[PhantomOnTour]

Lemme put it another way:
Did Point Given get hurt when he ran 5th or 6th or whatever in the Derby as a heavy chalk? Were those who rooted for the chalk to lose that day so they could cash a bet wishing ill will on him? No. I NEVER said I wanted something bad to happen to the horse, but all the trainers and 'horsefolk' go and get all butt hurt when someone stops short of praising these 'majestic beasts'....this is the reason horseracing is where it is. The powers that be made the foolish choice to promote the beauty of the horse and the game instead of how much money you can win. Casinos don't promote their buffet and beautiful view of the lake...they tell you they have loose slots and great odds and other gambling related stuff...HELLO!

And, by the way, what do you think of Zayat and others attempt at keeping Rachel out of the Preakness??? No one answers that

[Hanover1]

You stated in post #6 above, that "the bettor makes his spoils at your expense, given in the form of sweat and time."

How does that have anything to do with Mr. Zayat? it was you who strayed off topic. My comment was in response to your statement that we profit off your sweat.
There is no dance without the boys in the band......

[thaskalos]

There is no dance without the boys in the band...... It's not called "a dance" because of the boys in the band... is it?? Without the dancers...its just a band!

[Hanover1]

Lemme put it another way:
Did Point Given get hurt when he ran 5th or 6th or whatever in the Derby as a heavy chalk? Were those who rooted for the chalk to lose that day so they could cash a bet wishing ill will on him? No. I NEVER said I wanted something bad to happen to the horse, but all the trainers and 'horsefolk' go and get all butt hurt when someone stops short of praising these 'majestic beasts'....this is the reason horseracing is where it is. The powers that be made the foolish choice to promote the beauty of the horse and the game instead of how much money you can win. Casinos don't promote their buffet and beautiful view of the lake...they tell you they have loose slots and great odds and other gambling related stuff...HELLO!

And, by the way, what do you think of Zayat and others attempt at keeping Rachel out of the Preakness??? No one answers that
It was a rotten plot that Mr Zayat was conspiring to hatch, however lets not forget that it did not happen, and very well could have. The only thing that stopped him was his choice to relent in his unsportsmanlike approach. In the end, it was sabre rattling, and amounted to good/bad press.
I suspect the game in its current state suffers from many more ills rather than the public relations department. Mr Zayat is not one of them. And after living in Las Vegas, and traveling there countless times to visit my father, I have seen most every casino promote the buffet, and view of the landscape. They ALL claim to have loose slots, wich by the way, offer the worst odds of becoming a winner as opposed to other forms of gaming offered, yet many racetracks are surviving off these (slots) proceeds. Now THAT is a problem that far outshadows anything Mr Zayat has thrown our way to date.

[Hanover1]

It's not called "a dance" because of the boys in the band... is it?? Without the dancers...its just a band!
Next time they hold a dance without the band, please forward me 2 tickets. I want to be amused.

[lamboguy]

I don't relate to hoping somebody doesn't win something, esp. if it has no bearing on me directly. I once didn't want a certain coworker to get a promotion, only because I was up for the same job.

I have always found it a more positive frame of mind to put my efforts toward being *for* something, which is the subtle flip-side of being against something----mostly because it seems to yield a better outcome with a better feeling to it.

As a *goal*, working toward that which you want to happen just seems like a healthier thing to focus on?

I say that about life in general.i got to give you a double thumbs up for your attitude, its great. i try to be that way but its easier said than then done

[thaskalos]

Next time they hold a dance without the band, please forward me 2 tickets. I want to be amused. Haven't you heard? With the prices bands have been charging lately...people are now hiring DJ's. And the dances go on without missing a beat...

[NTamm1215]

So because TVG leaked that Zayat was trying to keep Rachel out of the Preakness, which never happened, and because Fifth Third Bank sued him for $34 million Eskendereya should lose? OK.

And if your prophecy about New Orleans winning came true then Houston has to be on its way to getting a championship of some sort since we sheltered 90% of the evacuees.

NT

[Hanover1]

Haven't you heard? With the prices bands have been charging lately...people are now hiring DJ's. And the dances go on without missing a beat...
Umm, I guess the boys in the band had nothing to do with the creation of the music? Get to the point.......

[Hanover1]

So because TVG leaked that Zayat was trying to keep Rachel out of the Preakness, which never happened, and because Fifth Third Bank sued him for $34 million Eskendereya should lose? OK.

And if your prophecy about New Orleans winning came true then Houston has to be on its way to getting a championship of some sort since we sheltered 90% of the evacuees.

NT
The Haitian trained entry will breeze..........

[thaskalos]

Umm, I guess the boys in the band had nothing to do with the creation of the music? Get to the point....... No great point to be made, my friend. Just a gentle reminder that, as far as this game is concerned, the horseplayers are just as important as anybody else involved. And that includes the horses, the trainers, the owners and the jockeys. Just because we have no voice, doesn't mean that "we make our spoils at your expense."

That's all...

[PhantomOnTour]

So because TVG leaked that Zayat was trying to keep Rachel out of the Preakness, which never happened, and because Fifth Third Bank sued him for $34 million Eskendereya should lose? OK.

And if your prophecy about New Orleans winning came true then Houston has to be on its way to getting a championship of some sort since we sheltered 90% of the evacuees.

NT
I bet you wish you hadn't taken those evacuees. A prominent bumper sticker seen in New Orleans reads: Thanks Houston :ThmbUp: Yup, you've got a title coming soon :rolleyes: If Jordan hadn't taken 2yrs off Houston wouldn't have any titles.

Why is Zayat being sued? You think he's totally innocent in the matter? It's all the fault of 5th/3rd?
If the attempted blocking of Rachel wasn't real then Zayat lied on TV about the conversation he had with Mr Allen, owner of MTB, about that very issue. So did he have an intention to block her or was he just lying about it on TV??

Hey horsefolk; is it okay for me to root against a Michael Gill horse?

[Cardus]

There is no dance without the boys in the band......

Without the horse players, there is no show.

That's not original -- its the product of an astute and respected horse player -- but I think that it is correct.

As a horseman, too -- albeit in the slightest of means -- I respect those who invest in Thoroughbreds.

We can go round and round with "chicken and egg" type arguments, but I defer to what I posted above.

[Hanover1]

No great point to be made, my friend. Just a gentle reminder that, as far as this game is concerned, the horseplayers are just as important as anybody else involved. And that includes the horses, the trainers, the owners and the jockeys. Just because we have no voice, doesn't mean that "we make our spoils at your expense."

That's all...
The statement you refer to was used to enhance the content of my message as a whole. Point given was one of contribution as it relates to Mr Zayat and the horsemen, and the horsemen who work to give the bettors the action the want, for better or worse. Can you see the relations to one another now? I am sorry if you felt slighted as a bettor when reading my post. When it comes down to policymaking and overall projection of the sport, horsemen have little say either, we are just heard out for the most part, for soothing purposes mostly. We are not State legislators, or setting on the way to many boards that run this game. I hope Zayat spends another 10 million at the sales this year, as he always does, and I hope you fire off a huge tri Derby day. In order for this sport to survive there needs to be more coalition, not division.

[Hanover1]

Without the horse players, there is no show.

That's not original -- its the product of an astute and respected horse player -- but I think that it is correct.

As a horseman, too -- albeit in the slightest of means -- I respect those who invest in Thoroughbreds.

We can go round and round with "chicken and egg" type arguments, but I defer to what I posted above.
Rich men in history have always raced horses...thousands of years worth of history to recall before reflecting on eggs and chicken. And those watching them go by found ways to make money. Even during bartering systems, before money ran any given society, a horse was at stake to the winner....
How profound is it coming from a horseplayer?: "Without horse players......"

[thaskalos]

The statement you refer to was used to enhance the content of my message as a whole. Point given was one of contribution as it relates to Mr Zayat and the horsemen, and the horsemen who work to give the bettors the action the want, for better or worse. Can you see the relations to one another now? I am sorry if you felt slighted as a bettor when reading my post. When it comes down to policymaking and overall projection of the sport, horsemen have little say either, we are just heard out for the most part, for soothing purposes mostly. We are not State legislators, or setting on the way to many boards that run this game. I hope Zayat spends another 10 million at the sales this year, as he always does, and I hope you fire off a huge tri Derby day. In order for this sport to survive there needs to be more coalition, not division. I understood your original message perfectly. I just felt that the sentence concerning the "bettors" could have been omitted without any great sacrifice in content. In any case...nothing personal. Your wishes for a profitable Derby Day are greatly appreciated....

[Hanover1]

I bet you wish you hadn't taken those evacuees. A prominent bumper sticker seen in New Orleans reads: Thanks Houston :ThmbUp: Yup, you've got a title coming soon :rolleyes: If Jordan hadn't taken 2yrs off Houston wouldn't have any titles.

Why is Zayat being sued? You think he's totally innocent in the matter? It's all the fault of 5th/3rd?
If the attempted blocking of Rachel wasn't real then Zayat lied on TV about the conversation he had with Mr Allen, owner of MTB, about that very issue. So did he have an intention to block her or was he just lying about it on TV??

Hey horsefolk; is it okay for me to root against a Michael Gill horse?
Given what has been tossed out there for public consumption concerning Mr Gill, for better or worse, my money goes on another horse......and that is directly in proportion to the allegations of treatments or lack thereof of said horses, not a slant on his personal business dealings. Might as well not bet on the 12 post ever, cuz its cold during that month??

[NTamm1215]

I bet you wish you hadn't taken those evacuees. A prominent bumper sticker seen in New Orleans reads: Thanks Houston :ThmbUp: Yup, you've got a title coming soon :rolleyes: If Jordan hadn't taken 2yrs off Houston wouldn't have any titles.

Why is Zayat being sued? You think he's totally innocent in the matter? It's all the fault of 5th/3rd?
If the attempted blocking of Rachel wasn't real then Zayat lied on TV about the conversation he had with Mr Allen, owner of MTB, about that very issue. So did he have an intention to block her or was he just lying about it on TV??

Hey horsefolk; is it okay for me to root against a Michael Gill horse?

I have no issue with what the City of Houston did for the evacuees. I lament the amount the crime rate soared in the latter half of 2005, but there was no other city capable or willing to assist.

I think the Fifth Third stuff is sensationalized. It's been made public that they're interested in getting out of the equine lending business (which would be a very big blow to the industry) and Zayat was an easy person to target because of his pricey, far-flung operation. Was his plan to keep Rachel out of the Preakness juvenile and mean-spirited? Absolutely, but ultimately he made the decision not to do it and I guess I just based my opinion on the end result.

There are plenty of "bad" people in racing that I have a very hard time conjuring up any good feelings for but Zayat isn't really one of them considering how much money he's spent and that there's never been anything made public about his horses being mistreated or dismissed. What Zayat has done since coming into the game is made a lot of breeders very wealthy by infusing a significant amount of cash. Racing needs owners like Zayat, whether Fifth Third needs them...

NT

[Hanover1]

I have no issue with what the City of Houston did for the evacuees. I lament the amount the crime rate soared in the latter half of 2005, but there was no other city capable or willing to assist.

I think the Fifth Third stuff is sensationalized. It's been made public that they're interested in getting out of the equine lending business (which would be a very big blow to the industry) and Zayat was an easy person to target because of his pricey, far-flung operation. Was his plan to keep Rachel out of the Preakness juvenile and mean-spirited? Absolutely, but ultimately he made the decision not to do it and I guess I just based my opinion on the end result.

There are plenty of "bad" people in racing that I have a very hard time conjuring up any good feelings for but Zayat isn't really one of them considering how much money he's spent and that there's never been anything made public about his horses being mistreated or dismissed. What Zayat has done since coming into the game is made a lot of breeders very wealthy by infusing a significant amount of cash. Racing needs owners like Zayat, whether Fifth Third needs them...

NT
Info I get from public sources indicate Zayat failed to make timely payments on personal loan agreements, and that he also failed to sell off several horses as agreed, to meet the terms of these loans. Nowhere in the articles did I see that the bank, in and of itself, was wishing to exit the lending business. If another well heeled individual approached this bank tomorrow with a business plan and collateral, money would be lent. They don't care how it is spent. Only that the terms of the loan are met. Something Mr Zayat is having issue with at this time with this bank.