What would be more impressive?

[only11]

If Z wins out and repeats in the classic.......will her accomplishments be greater then Big Red????
And why wouldnt she be consider the greatest of all time...??

I wouldnt be surprise if her last race was on turf after the classic..(just like Secretariat)

[startngate]

For me it would still depend on where she runs, and who she runs against. If she returns to CA, and never leaves the State while continuing to run against nondescript fillies and mares before a weak field in the Classic ... well, I'm not sure I can put her up as 'the greatest of all time'.

If she beats Rachel at some point, and beats quality open company a couple of times ... then she might have a chance to earn that title.

[JustRalph]

If Z wins out and repeats in the classic.......will her accomplishments be greater then Big Red????
And why wouldnt she be consider the greatest of all time...??

I wouldnt be surprise if her last race was on turf after the classic..(just like Secretariat)

You cannot be serious ??

[tzipi]

If Z wins out and repeats in the classic.......will her accomplishments be greater then Big Red????
And why wouldnt she be consider the greatest of all time...??

Sorry but that's so ridiculous. You should really go back and actually look at what Secretariat did, Man O War did, Citation,etc,etc. Not even close. Nothing against Zenny od course but nowhere close. She win the TC? How many track records did she clobber? How many top horses beaten(Not pure turf horses on polywhatever)? She's a great horse and has done her thing beautifully but greater than Secretariat, Man O war,etc? No way.

I hope this was a joke :D

[GaryG]

We had some of this bs last year about Rachel having the best 3yo season ever....not quite. Sometimes you just need to get a grip.

[only11]

Sorry but that's so ridiculous. You should really go back and actually look at what Secretariat did, Man O War did, Citation,etc,etc. Not even close. Nothing against Zenny od course but nowhere close. She win the TC? How many track records did she clobber? How many top horses beaten(Not pure turf horses on polywhatever)? She's a great horse and has done her thing beautifully but greater than Secretariat, Man O war,etc? No way.

I hope this was a joke :D
every horse you mentioned lost...Citation was beating 4 horse fields .I also mentioned accomplishments a mare beating colts 2 years in a row in the biggest race of the year..Big Red also lost 4 times..
Im not saying shes better but..... :lol:

[tzipi]

every horse you mentioned lost...Citation was beating 4 horse fields .I also mentioned accomplishments a mare beating colts 2 years in a row in the biggest race of the year..Big Red also lost 4 times..
Im not saying shes better but..... :lol:


So they lost, they are not the greatest? Peppers Pride is better than all of them I guess :D . You can try and fool amatuer racing fans but not me. I know the competition those horses ran against,the races they ran in and the times they. Maybe you're a novice fan who just started watching racing and that's TOTALLY fine but as you learn more about racing you'll know just because a horse hasn't lost doesn't mean they ran against the best, in the best races or could beat the best. Or maybe you're a racing fan stirring the pot ha.
Back in the day everybody was not yelling Ruffian or Personal Ensign was better than Secretariat, Man O War,etc when they were undefeated. You can say BC Classic but Ruffian never had the chance of a BC and the Classic last year was a synthetics race against mostly pure turf horses.

She's not better than Sec or Man. The thread made me smile though. Have fun with it. :ThmbUp:

[JustRalph]

every horse you mentioned lost...Citation was beating 4 horse fields .I also mentioned accomplishments a mare beating colts 2 years in a row in the biggest race of the year..Big Red also lost 4 times..
Im not saying shes better but..... :lol:


somewhere online you can download Seabiscuit's PP's. It's a PDF file.

Go find them and take a look at the kind of things horses did back in the day.

[ronsmac]

Secretariat was probably the greatest ever, but he did throw in an occasional klinker. That may be what seperates Zenyatta. She runs her race everytime.

[Fager Fan]

Secretariat was probably the greatest ever, but he did throw in an occasional klinker. That may be what seperates Zenyatta. She runs her race everytime.

Obviously, I think Fager has a stake for best racehorse ever, but Zenyatta? She's already 16 races late to the party. It's nice to be undefeated and have 10 G1 wins, but she's run every one of them slow to medium. If horses can't be your competition, then it's got to be the clock. A horse has to beat something impressive, and Zenyatta's record has her only as one of the best of her sex, not best overall. Can anyone even imagine the whipping she'd take at the hands of Secretariat or Fager?

[BluegrassProf]

You cannot be serious ?? :D

+1

[Pick6]

IMO Undefeated + 2 BC Classics gets her in the top 25 GOAT. Not quite Secretariat/Dr. Fager/Seattle Slew/Bid/Affirmed level, but on par with horses like Sunday Silence, Curlin, John Henry, and some other great ones.

Better than Ruffian? Too close to call. The traditionalist in me says no, but watching Z run beating horses with workout effort, or going thru traffic like no other says yes.

Maybe a race against Quality Road or RA and some "unbelievable" (sorry, Trevor) track record performance will get her into top 10 level. I don't see anybody else who can push her that far now in training.

[only11]

So they lost, they are not the greatest? Peppers Pride is better than all of them I guess :D . You can try and fool amatuer racing fans but not me. I know the competition those horses ran against,the races they ran in and the times they. Maybe you're a novice fan who just started watching racing and that's TOTALLY fine but as you learn more about racing you'll know just because a horse hasn't lost doesn't mean they ran against the best, in the best races or could beat the best. Or maybe you're a racing fan stirring the pot ha.
Back in the day everybody was not yelling Ruffian or Personal Ensign was better than Secretariat, Man O War,etc when they were undefeated. You can say BC Classic but Ruffian never had the chance of a BC and the Classic last year was a synthetics race against mostly pure turf horses.

She's not better than Sec or Man. The thread made me smile though. Have fun with it. :ThmbUp:
tzipi have been betting 27 years...my introduction to the game was by codero jr..which means nothing...all im saying is her accomplishments might be the greatest of all time if she wins out...Secretariat won the triple crown ...so has 10 other horses..if Z win the classsic that may never be done again by a mare..I agree Bg REd was the greatest...This Peppers Pide stuff is Bs

[Java Gold@TFT]

Look up the pp's of the field lined up for the 1973 Marlboro Cup and come back when Zenyatta faces a field like that and sets a record that still stands almost 40 years later. 9F in 1:50 against creampuffs? Not nearly in the realm of the alltime greats. And I do like her and think she is good for racing. I just think she is too timidly managed.

[only11]

Look up the pp's of the field lined up for the 1973 Marlboro Cup and come back when Zenyatta faces a field like that and sets a record that still stands almost 40 years later. 9F in 1:50 against creampuffs? Not nearly in the realm of the alltime greats. And I do like her and think she is good for racing. I just think she is too timidly managed.
Java i ask was Cigar timidly manage...?

[Zman179]

tzipi have been betting 27 years...my introduction to the game was by codero jr..which means nothing...all im saying is her accomplishments might be the greatest of all time if she wins out...Secretariat won the triple crown ...so has 10 other horses..if Z win the classsic that may never be done again by a mare..I agree Bg REd was the greatest...This Peppers Pide stuff is Bs

Zenyatta is an excellent racehorse, but greatest of all time? No way. If she runs out, she will be considered the best female horse in North American racing history. She'll also be considered among the greats, but not as THE greatest.

I defnitely wouldn't mind seeing Z sweep Peppers Pride's record aside, that record is an atrocious anomaly in the record books.

[tzipi]

tzipi have been betting 27 years...my introduction to the game was by codero jr..which means nothing...all im saying is her accomplishments might be the greatest of all time if she wins out...Secretariat won the triple crown ...so has 10 other horses..if Z win the classsic that may never be done again by a mare..I agree Bg REd was the greatest...This Peppers Pide stuff is Bs

"Her accomplishments might be the greatest of all time"???
Take away the BC race over synthetics and you say the schedule of races is the greatest off all time? WOW. She ran against mostly the same overmatched field on polturf for most her wins. She did her thing and she did it weel but that's not stuff that makes you greatest off all time. Tiz Now did more interms of the types of races he ran in and he won 2 BC Classics against good fields. I mean I could say any horse has the greatest accomplishments before they even race the year.

"Secretariat won the Triple crown...so has 10 other horses" WAIT, Secretariat just won the TC?? And because 10 other horses won it means less?? Just 10 out of how many TC's? Plus Secretariat did ALOT more than the TC. Geez.
Please stop knocking Secretariat's races and his TC. Cordero would be shocked I think :D

"Peppers Pride stuff is BS" So is calling Zenyatta the greatest of all time or her career accomplishments the greatest of all time. Let her RUN first. She'd have to tackle a ton of all top male fields and the BC over a good field and dominate them, then she will be just about to the top 10. I like her but that's ridiculous to say this as of now. Not even close.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Java i ask was Cigar timidly manage...?
First, I never mentioned Cigar or Pepper's Pride for that matter. There is a dirty little secret that rarely gets discussed when mentioning Cigar - As great a horse as he was, he got the break of a lifetime when Holy Bull didn't make it out of the Donn. I truly believe that given the connections and their bases of NY racing that Cigar and Holy Bull would have met up on several more occasions and they would have split their head to head races and you wouldn't see a 16 race win streak. That's purely conjecture, obviously, but the retirement of Holy Bull had an enormous effect on Cigar's history in the sport. Mott managed him well with regard to where his competition was. Zenyatta, on the other hand has definitely been managed timidly. Why not run in the Hollywood Gold Cup where her stablemate Life Is Sweet ran? Why not try the Pac Classic? Why the Lady's Secret instead of the Goodwood on the same weekend? Her 2009 'campaign' was timid up to the BC. We'll see at the end of this year just how committed Moss is to traveling and showcasing his great mare.

[kenwoodallpromos]

The greatest horse ever is the one who has the record for most money bet on it in a lifetime.

[Pick6]

All this talk about GOAT got me thinking about an imaginary race pitting the top 14 horses IMO in the last 50 years.

1 1/4 miles, same time as Travers. Saratoga (why? one of my favorite tracks)

Horses figured when running at the best of their ability, with the chance of throwing in a clunker based on their overall record. 126 lbs., 5 pound sex allowance.

1. Secretariat 3-1 Turcotte Should stalk leaders and turn up the heat turning for home
2. Dr. Fager 4-1 Baeza Needs a breather against this field, not going to get it
3. Seattle Slew 6-1 Cordero Will be pushing Fager all the way
4. Spectacular Bid 8-1 Shoemaker Already lost to one of these
5. Affirmed 10-1 Pincay Needs a great ride to save ground; patience will help
6. Damascus 10-1 Ycaza Has the speed and the most brilliant race at this distance to fall back on; already beat two of these
7. Kelso 12-1 Arcaro May pick up the pieces if pace is suicidal
8. Forego 15-1 Gustines Never beat anything close to this quality; sweeping Belmont turns not as much a factor here;
9. Cigar 15-1 Bailey Best distance helps his chances
10. Ruffian 30-1 Vasquez lightning pace does not favor her chances, but capable of super effort with 5 pound break
11. Buckpasser 30-1 No Rider Needs to step it up a notch from his best at this distance
12. Curlin 30-1 Albarado Best probably not good enough
13. John Henry 30-1 McHargue Won't go down without a fight
14. Sunday Silence 30-1 McCarron running 5 wide throughout won't cut it here

Also eligible (6):
Avatar
Point Given
Easy Goer
Barbaro
Holy Bull
Alysheba

[thaskalos]

Zenyatta is in the unfortunate position of not being in control of her destiny, as far as her position in history is concerned. No matter what she accomplishes this year, unless a rivalry with Rachel materializes, she will be considered by some as just a curiosity, rather than as one of the best horses to ever grace a racetrack. Heck...if Eskendereya happens to sweep the Triple Crown and then retires, and Zenyatta finishes the year 20-0 with another BC Classic victory...Zenyatta will get beaten for Horse Of The Year again.

[gm10]

If Z wins out and repeats in the classic.......will her accomplishments be greater then Big Red????
And why wouldnt she be consider the greatest of all time...??

I wouldnt be surprise if her last race was on turf after the classic..(just like Secretariat)

What if she ran the Breeders Cup Turf this year? Now there's a prospect :-)

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Comparing horses across different decades is very difficult as the nature of racing changes over time

An example is Beyer and Secretariat. In Beyer's book Picking Winners he assigns Secretariat a figure of something like 148 for the Belmont Stks. But a few years ago writing for DRF he says that Secretariat would get something like 139. So even Beyers which are a supposedly "objective" measure have not been able to stay constant over time but the scale has changed as racing has changed

Then you have drugs. Drug use and detection has changed over the decades. Pittsburgh Phil freely discusses drug use in a chapter of his book from 100 years ago. I have suspicions that some of the "great" performances I have witnessed in my time have been due to drugs. I also suspect the further you go back in time the easier it was to get away with drugs

Handicapping policy can also change over time. At times handicapping can be a serious attempt to bring the best horse back to the field, in other eras the best performed horses don't get enough weight as the handicapper lets the best horse win

As for Zenyatta if she goes through this year and beats the best out there and wins a third Breeders Cup there will be no doubt in my mind that she is one of the all time greats. And that is as far as you can go with any horse

[thaskalos]

It is not fair to compare the horses of today to the horses of yester-year, and it has little to do with today's changing racing landscape. Some of the horses of years past have achieved legendary status, and they are surrounded by a level of "mystique" that today's animals cannot possibly match, no matter what they accomplish. And that applies equally to other sports as well.

In baseball, Albert Pujols has been doing for years what nobody else in the game has EVER been able to do! And yet, given baseball's rich tradition, to call him the best of all time is considered blaspemy.

[thaskalos]

It is not fair to compare the horses of today to the horses of yester-year, and it has little to do with today's changing racing landscape. Some of the horses of years past have achieved legendary status, and they are surrounded by a level of "mystique" that today's animals cannot possibly match, no matter what they accomplish. And that applies equally to other sports as well.

In baseball, Albert Pujols has been doing for years what nobody else in the game has EVER been able to do! And yet, given baseball's rich tradition, to call him the best of all time is considered blaspemy. I mean..."blasphemy".

[PaceAdvantage]

All this talk about GOAT got me thinking about an imaginary race pitting the top 14 horses IMO in the last 50 years.

1 1/4 miles, same time as Travers. Saratoga (why? one of my favorite tracks)

Horses figured when running at the best of their ability, with the chance of throwing in a clunker based on their overall record. 126 lbs., 5 pound sex allowance.

1. Secretariat 3-1 Turcotte Should stalk leaders and turn up the heat turning for home
2. Dr. Fager 4-1 Baeza Needs a breather against this field, not going to get it
3. Seattle Slew 6-1 Cordero Will be pushing Fager all the way
4. Spectacular Bid 8-1 Shoemaker Already lost to one of these
5. Affirmed 10-1 Pincay Needs a great ride to save ground; patience will help
6. Damascus 10-1 Ycaza Has the speed and the most brilliant race at this distance to fall back on; already beat two of these
7. Kelso 12-1 Arcaro May pick up the pieces if pace is suicidal
8. Forego 15-1 Gustines Never beat anything close to this quality; sweeping Belmont turns not as much a factor here;
9. Cigar 15-1 Bailey Best distance helps his chances
10. Ruffian 30-1 Vasquez lightning pace does not favor her chances, but capable of super effort with 5 pound break
11. Buckpasser 30-1 No Rider Needs to step it up a notch from his best at this distance
12. Curlin 30-1 Albarado Best probably not good enough
13. John Henry 30-1 McHargue Won't go down without a fight
14. Sunday Silence 30-1 McCarron running 5 wide throughout won't cut it here

Also eligible (6):
Avatar
Point Given
Easy Goer
Barbaro
Holy Bull
AlyshebaCurlin ahead of Holy Bull? Wow...

[46zilzal]

Curlin ahead of Holy Bull? Wow...
Lots of horses would be ahead of Holy Bull, a recent flash in the pan.

We would not know how Miesque might have run on the dirt either.

Ack Ack would have to have been on this list and at that distance Old Bones would have to be considered as he rarely ran a mediocre race and the longer the better. ......but that is over 50 years

[tzipi]

It's sad Barbaro got robbed of his career and wont make top lists like this. That horse looked like a huge star who handled turf,dirt and slop like a monster. Looked like he could run all day too. I think he might've won the TC if he didn't sadly break down. Seems like he won't get the due he derserves in times of all time greats. BUT it's not anyones fault because he did go down early, so what he would've done besides the races he won is just a guess. But I say he would've dominated IMO.

[46zilzal]

If Z wins out and repeats in the classic.......will her accomplishments be greater then Big Red????
And why wouldnt she be consider the greatest of all time...??

I wouldnt be surprise if her last race was on turf after the classic..(just like Secretariat)
No but on the same page.

I have NEVER seen another horse run these fractions 25 1/5, 24, 23 4/5, 23 2/5, and 23, Not even in too many turf contests.

[tzipi]

Lots of horses would be ahead of Holy Bull, a recent flash in the pan.

We would not know how Miesque might have run on the dirt either.

Ack Ack would have to have been on this list and at that distance Old Bones would have to be considered as he rarely ran a mediocre race and the longer the better. ......but that is over 50 years

I liked the Bull. I think his Travers where he was pushed through very fast fractions and then held on gamely over Concern showed his pure talent. His Woodward was great too. I think he was going to go on to be even better and him and Cigar would've gone at it for some races. I think he was a great horse who couldn't be counted out IMO.

[tzipi]

No but on the same page.

I have NEVER seen another horse run these fractions 25 1/5, 24, 23 4/5, 23 2/5, and 23, Not even in too many turf contests.

Yeah, those Derby fractions were insane. Who the heck could runs those?? Secretariat was unbelievable. His Belmont fractions were crazy too.

[46zilzal]

Yeah, those Derby fractions were insane. Who the heck could runs those?? Secretariat was unbelievable. His Belmont fractions were crazy too.
I had the honor of visiting him twice and after he passed I sent the shot which is my avatar to Mrs. Tweedy and got a nice handwritten response.

[tzipi]

I had the honor of visiting him twice and after he passed I sent the shot which is my avatar to Mrs. Tweedy and got a nice handwritten response.

That's awesome and a nice thing to have. :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Lots of horses would be ahead of Holy Bull, a recent flash in the pan.You are truly remarkable in your ignorance. One of the top two or three best horses of the last 20+ years has now been relegated to a RECENT flash in the pan by you.

Curlin was by far inferior to Holy Bull. That was the point I was making. But thanks for confirming to me once again that you can be incredibly misinformed when it comes to these types of discussions.

[Johnny V]

All this talk about GOAT got me thinking about an imaginary race pitting the top 14 horses IMO in the last 50 years.

1 1/4 miles, same time as Travers. Saratoga (why? one of my favorite tracks)

Horses figured when running at the best of their ability, with the chance of throwing in a clunker based on their overall record. 126 lbs., 5 pound sex allowance.

1. Secretariat 3-1 Turcotte Should stalk leaders and turn up the heat turning for home
2. Dr. Fager 4-1 Baeza Needs a breather against this field, not going to get it
3. Seattle Slew 6-1 Cordero Will be pushing Fager all the way
4. Spectacular Bid 8-1 Shoemaker Already lost to one of these
5. Affirmed 10-1 Pincay Needs a great ride to save ground; patience will help
6. Damascus 10-1 Ycaza Has the speed and the most brilliant race at this distance to fall back on; already beat two of these
7. Kelso 12-1 Arcaro May pick up the pieces if pace is suicidal
8. Forego 15-1 Gustines Never beat anything close to this quality; sweeping Belmont turns not as much a factor here;
9. Cigar 15-1 Bailey Best distance helps his chances
10. Ruffian 30-1 Vasquez lightning pace does not favor her chances, but capable of super effort with 5 pound break
11. Buckpasser 30-1 No Rider Needs to step it up a notch from his best at this distance
12. Curlin 30-1 Albarado Best probably not good enough
13. John Henry 30-1 McHargue Won't go down without a fight
14. Sunday Silence 30-1 McCarron running 5 wide throughout won't cut it here

Also eligible (6):
Avatar
Point Given
Easy Goer
Barbaro
Holy Bull
Alysheba
At 12-1, I think Kelso looks pretty good to me in this one.

[46zilzal]

You are truly remarkable in your ignorance. One of the top two or three best horses of the last 20+ years has now been relegated to a RECENT flash in the pan by you.

Curlin was by far inferior to Holy Bull. That was the point I was making. But thanks for confirming to me once again that you can be incredibly misinformed when it comes to these types of discussions.

It is rather obvious from your constantly bringing up the same horse that this one made a big impression on you and subjectivity is clouding rationality.

That's okay as I know as I was of that mindset until Easy Goer's three year old season when FACTS changed my mind.

When one has rational historical perspective they know moderate from extraordinary...It goes without saying, and I have witnessed it for four decades: When there in nothing of greatness around, those itchy to have one, elevate good to great....

[46zilzal]

Greatness is akin to a type like the Chocolate Soldier Equipoise...a horse does not get into the American Racing Manual Hall of Fame without impressing a lot of those in the know.

Won long and short for years: that is greatness

Great American Stakes (1930)
Pimlico Futurity (1930)
Havre de Grace Handicap (1932)
Whitney Handicap (1932)
Stars and Stripes Handicap (1932)
The Toboggan (1932)
Metropolitan Handicap (1932, 1933)
Wilson Stakes (1932, 1933)
Arlington Handicap (1933)
Suburban Handicap (1933)
Hawthorne Gold Cup Handicap (1933)
Saratoga Cup (1933)
Dixie Handicap (1934)

With hoof problems always plaguing him, he was still voted United States Horse of the Year in 1932 and 1933. U.S. Champion Older Male Horse in 1932, 1933, and 1934.

[McSock]

As big of a fan of Zen that I am, I hold no illusion of her being greatest of all time. Even in my own bias opinion of her, she is not. But I also am not qualified to say who was better, Secretariat, Dr. Fager, Spectacular Bid, or who ever it might be. I do think to some extent the great horses are a product of their time and other quality horses of that era. I am not sure when looking at 20-40 years or more ago is even comparing at apples to apples.
Just the fact, she will be talked about 20-40 years from now in the same breath along with so many other greats shows she was more than a splash in the bucket.

[Pick6]

At 12-1, I think Kelso looks pretty good to me in this one.
I'll take Damascus at 10-1 for value. If it's 1 1/2 miles Kelso and Forego move up big time.

[Pick6]

You are truly remarkable in your ignorance. One of the top two or three best horses of the last 20+ years has now been relegated to a RECENT flash in the pan by you.

Curlin was by far inferior to Holy Bull. That was the point I was making. But thanks for confirming to me once again that you can be incredibly misinformed when it comes to these types of discussions.
And Holy Bull is inferior to at least 10 horses in my list. Point Given would have crushed Holy Bull.

[PaceAdvantage]

And Holy Bull is inferior to at least 10 horses in my list. Point Given would have crushed Holy Bull.Crushed? On what planet?

Curlin, Sunday Silence, and John Henry are three horses who should not have been placed above Holy Bull.

And I was as big a fan of Sunday Silence as I am Holy Bull...46, please take note of this fact.

[Dahoss9698]

And Holy Bull is inferior to at least 10 horses in my list. Point Given would have crushed Holy Bull.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[eastie]

he would have won the triple crown if Baffert didn't work him in 58 before the derby and if Stevens didn't have him chasing that ridiculous 44 /1:09 pace. Point Given was awesome, the best of the 2 out of 3 guys.

[46zilzal]

Point Given was a great reactor to the pace and ran usually sustained/presser, the ideal for route horses.

[Hanover1]

IMO McSock nailed it....different eras, different horses. A far cry from riding rail cars and running 2-3x a month and setting records in the process. For her time, she will probably be lauded as a great horse, but not to be compared to past eras of champions given the overall campaign picture, ect...We live in a time at present where even in the presence of perfection, we find fault as well......

[Pick6]

Crushed? On what planet?

Curlin, Sunday Silence, and John Henry are three horses who should not have been placed above Holy Bull.

And I was as big a fan of Sunday Silence as I am Holy Bull...46, please take note of this fact.
I can't think of a single pace scenario from 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 miles where Holy Bull stands much of a chance to Point Given.

[Dahoss9698]

I can't think of a single pace scenario from 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 miles where Holy Bull stands much of a chance to Point Given.

This is almost as good as the Point Given would crush Holy Bull post. Keep the jokes coming....please.

[the little guy]

Point Given never ran as well as Holy Bull did in winning the Travers.

[cj]

Point Given never ran as well as Holy Bull did in winning the Travers.

...or the Met.

[Dahoss9698]

...or the Woodward

[cj]

Florida Derby as well?

[tzipi]

I always loved that Travers. Commanche Trail busting along with the Bull through fast fractions and Holy Bull still holds off the hard charging Concern. Durkins call for that race was great! :ThmbUp:

[the little guy]

Florida Derby as well?


That was a gold rail.

Holy Bull was clearly, however, a better horse than Point Given and he proved it on the racetrack.

[cj]

That was a gold rail.

Holy Bull was clearly, however, a better horse than Point Given and he proved it on the racetrack.

I was about 12 back then. I didn't understand track bias.

[Ejmenz]

That was a cool race set, I enjoyed it very much, I thought Curlin and Ruffian were too high, but I really appreciate you putting it together, fun stuff.

Secretariat isn't only the best horse I've ever seen, he was the most dominant athlete I ever saw, he is and always will be my Babe Ruth.

Rating Zenyatta is nearly impossible, I'd leave it at she is the greatest synthetic surface horse of all time.

You can't argue that, and we're talking about a lot of wonderful male horses who've run on the plastic.

That title alone is an amazing accomplishment.

Better then Big Red, not a chance.

[JustRalph]

8OJwB5IHlV0

Florida Derby

oOUaBPd6Z8Y



FW9AG9HSkgU


and to wind it all up

A7BR2K82oyI

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't think I've ever seen that last video you posted Ralph...I'm pretty sure I've never watched the replay of that Donn handicap after seeing it live the first time around...I was absolutely crushed when Holy Bull pulled up...

[eastie]

I was about 12 back then. I didn't understand track bias.



a slow learner eh ? :D

[only11]

I always loved that Travers. Commanche Trail busting along with the Bull through fast fractions and Holy Bull still holds off the hard charging Concern. Durkins call for that race was great! :ThmbUp:
"theres reason to be Concern" absolute classic..the travers call around the far turn...

[Ejmenz]

When I think Holy Bull I think talent, supreme talent.

Alydar, Spectacular Bid, Holy Bull, Point Given, and Risen Star are the best horses to lose the derby since the 70's.

Bet Twice and Easy Goer too.

[joanied]

justralph...thanks for the videos. That last one...Da Bull just made me feel sad all over again...I recall watching that one, and like so many others, my heart stopped when the Bull was pulled up...no telling what kind of stretch drive we would have seen with him & Cigar...IMO, Holy Bull was one of the greatest...ever!!
Watching Croll fight back tears made me tear up...crap!!

[Ejmenz]

Sorry BID my bad.

[JustRalph]

I wasn't a big race fan back then. I watch many of these on Youtube and sometimes you don't understand how great some of these guys were unless you see them..........

[Pick6]

This is almost as good as the Point Given would crush Holy Bull post. Keep the jokes coming....please.
I guess that means the joke's on you?

The fact Point Given dominated his competition more than any other 3YO since Affirmed means nothing to you? Or are you saying Holy Bull was better than Affirmed? lol

Of course Secretariat would have beaten Point Given that day, can't think of too many others, frankly.

He was 3 and 4 wide throughout in the Travers, and won for absolute fun.

I sure would like to have seen Holy Bull beat Point Given in the Belmont/Travers. Get back to me when you can explain how that happens.

[Dahoss9698]

I guess that means the joke's on you?

The fact Point Given dominated his competition more than any other 3YO since Affirmed means nothing to you? Or are you saying Holy Bull was better than Affirmed? lol

Of course Secretariat would have beaten Point Given that day, can't think of too many others, frankly.

He was 3 and 4 wide throughout in the Travers, and won for absolute fun.

I sure would like to have seen Holy Bull beat Point Given in the Belmont/Travers. Get back to me when you can explain how that happens.

Holy Bull beat Concern (BC Classic winner) and Tabasco Cat (Preakness and Belmont winner) in the Travers. He did this while dueling with a rabbit, through super fast fractions.

You want to compare that to Point Given beating E Dubai and Dollar Bill in the Travers because he was 3 and 4 wide throughout? Holy Bull would have beaten Point Given that day. Of that I have no doubt.

Point Given was a very nice 3 year old. But your version of what a fact is, isn't. Didn't Big Brown dominate his competition as a 3 year old like Point Given did? What about Bernardini? He seemed to dominate his competition. Apparently that means nothing to you.

Take a look at some of the fields Holy Bull beat, then take a look at who Point Given was dominating. Holy Bull would have beaten every horse Point Given did. I don't think you can say the same thing about Point Given.

[JustRalph]

we need more "Dollar Bill" types

I loved betting against that horse :lol:

[eastie]

That was a gold rail.

Holy Bull was clearly, however, a better horse than Point Given and he proved it on the racetrack.

point given won 5 grade I races 5 of the 6 biggest Grade I's that there were. Holy bull was great, a real game sob, but Point Given would have took him any time he wanted him.

[Dahoss9698]

point given won 5 grade I races 5 of the 6 biggest Grade I's that there were. Holy bull was great, a real game sob, but Point Given would have took him any time he wanted him.

So in your opinion, if we were somehow able to go back in time. Say Point Given lines up in the gate in the Woodward, the year Holy Bull won. Do you honestly think Point Given could have beat Holy Bull in that race?

Sometimes I think people don't realize the races Holy Bull won and how he did it. He also won 5 grade 1's as a 3 year old and I don't think it's even debateable he beat much better horses than Point Given did.

As a 3 year old, Holy Bull won the grade 1 Florida Derby, Met Mile (defeating elders), Haskell, Travers and Woodward (again defeating elders). He also won the grade 2 Hutcheson, Blue Grass and Dwyer.

He was in a different league than Point Given.

[KirisClown]

point given won 5 grade I races 5 of the 6 biggest Grade I's that there were. Holy bull was great, a real game sob, but Point Given would have took him any time he wanted him.

Do you think Point Given would have taken him at will in this race? I have nothing against PG, but to say he would have easily beaten Holy Bull is very hard to imagine..

Maybe if Point Given had been able to face and beat his elders in 2001 we would know a little more..

ygPNuKRxt3w

[Cardus]

If Z wins out and repeats in the classic.......will her accomplishments be greater then Big Red????
And why wouldnt she be consider the greatest of all time...??

I wouldnt be surprise if her last race was on turf after the classic..(just like Secretariat)

You have it backwards.

The Breeders' Cup Turf is before the Classic.

I expect her to run in both and to win both.

She is Zenyatta; nothing is beyond her reach.

[Cardus]

IMO Undefeated + 2 BC Classics gets her in the top 25 GOAT. Not quite Secretariat/Dr. Fager/Seattle Slew/Bid/Affirmed level, but on par with horses like Sunday Silence, Curlin, John Henry, and some other great ones.

Better than Ruffian? Too close to call. The traditionalist in me says no, but watching Z run beating horses with workout effort, or going thru traffic like no other says yes.

Maybe a race against Quality Road or RA and some "unbelievable" (sorry, Trevor) track record performance will get her into top 10 level. I don't see anybody else who can push her that far now in training.

If Zenyatta winds up on par with Curlin, she isn't close to Sunday Silence, for openers.

[PaceAdvantage]

If Zenyatta winds up on par with Curlin, she isn't close to Sunday Silence, for openers.Well said...

(I would have used "Sharp Post" but that holds a whole different meaning around here...)

[eastie]

So in your opinion, if we were somehow able to go back in time. Say Point Given lines up in the gate in the Woodward, the year Holy Bull won. Do you honestly think Point Given could have beat Holy Bull in that race?

Sometimes I think people don't realize the races Holy Bull won and how he did it. He also won 5 grade 1's as a 3 year old and I don't think it's even debateable he beat much better horses than Point Given did.

As a 3 year old, Holy Bull won the grade 1 Florida Derby, Met Mile (defeating elders), Haskell, Travers and Woodward (again defeating elders). He also won the grade 2 Hutcheson, Blue Grass and Dwyer.

He was in a different league than Point Given.

he was in a different league, the league of hosses that didn't win any of the triple crown races.....

[thaskalos]

Well said...

(I would have used "Sharp Post" but that holds a whole different meaning around here...) PA...does this mean that you think Zenyatta might end up on par with Curlin? That's not like you!

[Dahoss9698]

he was in a different league, the league of hosses that didn't win any of the triple crown races.....

What about the rest of my post? Nothing at all to say about it?

He didn't win any triple crown races, but who cares? When he faced the winners of The Derby, Preakness and Belmont later that year he beat Tabasco Cat by 17 lengths and Go For Gin by 10 lengths. I think it's safe to say his Derby was a throwout, as he defeated elders 3 weeks later, earning a 122 Beyer in the Met Mile.

Lots of very good horses don't win triple crown races. How many triple crown races did Zenyatta win?

[eastie]

Do you think Point Given would have taken him at will in this race? I have nothing against PG, but to say he would have easily beaten Holy Bull is very hard to imagine..

Maybe if Point Given had been able to face and beat his elders in 2001 we would know a little more..

ygPNuKRxt3w




Point Given would have drowned Cherokee Run... when the big guy came up on Holy Bull he would've proceeded on by, slowly but surely.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA...does this mean that you think Zenyatta might end up on par with Curlin? That's not like you!Unless you think Curlin approaches the realm of all-time great, I'm not sure why you would be surprised...

[PaceAdvantage]

Point Given would have drowned Cherokee Run...Not going a mile . . .

[PaceAdvantage]

Lots of very good horses don't win triple crown races. How many triple crown races did Zenyatta win?And people wonder why I keep Dahoss around . . .

[eastie]

maybe you should go watch Point Given in the Preakness (about 5 wide on the clubhouse turn) he had the trip that never wins, except if you're a Big Red Train named Point Given or Secretariat. Then maybe you could watch him be even wider in The Belmont(about the 6 or 7 path on the clubhouse turn). he dominated going 12 furlongs. Remember when Holy Bull ran 12 furlongs...keep thinking. Point Given races at 1 1/16 are blazing fast. He would have slapped Cherokee Run. The same Cherokee Run who couldn't run down Holy Bull in the Met. If you watch any of Point Given's races. you will see he is widening at the end of all of them.

[eastie]

And people wonder why I keep Dahoss around . . .


The more mooks the merrier. he couldn't be best man in an all girls school.:D

[Dahoss9698]

maybe you should go watch Point Given in the Preakness (about 5 wide on the clubhouse turn) he had the trip that never wins, except if you're a Big Red Train named Point Given or Secretariat. Then maybe you could watch him be even wider in The Belmont(about the 6 or 7 path on the clubhouse turn). he dominated going 12 furlongs. Remember when Holy Bull ran 12 furlongs...keep thinking. Point Given races at 1 1/16 are blazing fast. He would have slapped Cherokee Run. The same Cherokee Run who couldn't run down Holy Bull in the Met. If you watch any of Point Given's races. you will see he is widening at the end of all of them.

So now dominating at 12 furlongs on dirt is the measuring stick? You must love D'Tara.

[Hank]

Time to trot out the boxing analogy yet again......Rocky Marciano went undefeated 49-0 no tougher sob ever roamed the earth.Yet no one with even a rudimentry knowledge of boxing considers him the GOAT.Anybody that can envision Z reeling in and passing big red is seriuosly delusional.:rolleyes:

[eastie]

Larry Holmes would have knocked Marciano into tomorrow.

[Show Me the Wire]

And people wonder why I keep Dahoss around . . .


I know, I know, because you enjoy posters bashing Zenyatta.

[PaceAdvantage]

I know, I know, because you enjoy posters bashing Zenyatta.Right...that's it...