Zenyatta's next start

[Spalding No!]

Does she go to Churchill to face Careless Jewel and possibly Zardana and Rachel Alexandra or does she go for a local race like the Milady to secure the elusive 17th straight win?

It may depend on Rachel Alexandra's connections, as they aren't committed to the La Troienne anyways.

[boogazie]

I'm hoping she goes for a G1 Turf race

[born2ride]

Does she go to Churchill to face Careless Jewel and possibly Zardana and Rachel Alexandra or does she go for a local race like the Milady to secure the elusive 17th straight win?

It may depend on Rachel Alexandra's connections, as they aren't committed to the La Troienne anyways.
She's never run on 3 weeks rest, and I don't think they'll try to do that now. They want her in peak shape for the Classic, so they'll plan her races backwards from there. I would bet we get more one race out of her before she gets a breather, and I imagine it'd not be an overly challenging race.

[tzipi]

She's never run on 3 weeks rest, and I don't think they'll try to do that now. They want her in peak shape for the Classic, so they'll plan her races backwards from there. I would bet we get more one race out of her before she gets a breather, and I imagine it'd not be an overly challenging race.

I think she can in 3 weeks. Today was a paid workout for her. They didn't run fast at all. She breezed around the whole race. I'm hoping she goes to CD. :)

[born2ride]

I think she can in 3 weeks. Today was a paid workout for her. They didn't run fast at all. She breezed around the whole race. I'm hoping she goes to CD. :)
I hope she goes too, it'd show that Z's connections are serious about showcasing her. But given her connections penchant for being conservative I'd not bank on it.

[lamboguy]

the more zenyatta runs the better she will get. she loves running in a race.

john sherrifs has given this mare the all time best training job i have ever seen. if she looks the way she did at the end of the year, she might run again next year.

[bisket]

i have my fingers crossed that delaware park does something to get zen and rachel together for the del park handicap this summer. boy that would make my decade. :ThmbUp: it would make sense. zen won't go to new york. i just think this meeting should take place at a smaller track.

[bisket]

the more zenyatta runs the better she will get. she loves running in a race.

john sherrifs has given this mare the all time best training job i have ever seen. if she looks the way she did at the end of the year, she might run again next year.
zen just always seems to enjoy what she's doing. in the racing game if you've got a horse like this you know fate has really shined on you. sherriffs has done an excellent job.

[Sekrah]

Word on the grapevine is that Zenyatta's connections want to face stiffer competition in her next race. They are going to challenge Zippy Chippy to a match-race.

[only11]

Word on the grapevine is that Zenyatta's connections want to face stiffer competition in her next race. They are going to challenge Zippy Chippy to a match-race.
hold on is zippy chippy better then the great munnings who RA beat in the haskell?

[ghostyapper]

Word on the grapevine is that Zenyatta's connections want to face stiffer competition in her next race. They are going to challenge Zippy Chippy to a match-race.

Well if this is true hopefully zippy will not back out of the race out of fear like the ones who backed out of todays ;)

[RockHardTen1985]

Stephen Foster where she will face 2 decent horses.... Blame and Battle Plan.

[Pick6]

I think she can in 3 weeks. Today was a paid workout for her. They didn't run fast at all. She breezed around the whole race. I'm hoping she goes to CD. :)
Most of her races are workouts. Some more competitive than others.

I agree about CD, but probably not in 3 weeks. June makes most sense, both for CD association and Z. It also makes most sense to juice a race with $$$ to get RA to run. She is already there and fits perfectly for her campaign, and gives her a chance to prove she is "near perfect", i.e. "no excuses".

[Pick6]

i have my fingers crossed that delaware park does something to get zen and rachel together for the del park handicap this summer. boy that would make my decade. :ThmbUp: it would make sense. zen won't go to new york. i just think this meeting should take place at a smaller track.
Well, we know it won't be ARL, KEE, or WO. I never considered DEL. Makes sense to me; do they have the $ to stake a $3 million event? I think that's is what it will take.

[chickenhead]

"We like races that are a mile-and-an-eighth. We like grade Is. So we will plot our course and if Rachel Alexandra wants to join us, she’s more than welcome. But we will plot our schedule with the goal of getting to the Breeders’ Cup."


Vanity

or

Stephen Foster

or

?

I'd put her in the Charlie Whittingham.....I want to see her on the turf

[PaceAdvantage]

Why would they say they like 1 1/8 mile races? Don't they know 10 furlongs is the classic distance that everyone here is clamoring for?

I hope all those who bash team Rachel will also bash team Zenyatta for this kind of thinking.

Never mind that 10 furlongs is not the classic distance for females. But then again, these aren't any ordinary females, are they?

[Pick6]

I read that quote "pointing to BC Classic", which is 1 1/4 miles, classic distance. Nothing wrong winning that race and proving you are best of them all, dirt or wax, correct?

[chickenhead]

Why would they say they like 1 1/8 mile races? Don't they know 10 furlongs is the classic distance that everyone here is clamoring for?

I hope all those who bash team Rachel will also bash team Zenyatta for this kind of thinking.

Never mind that 10 furlongs is not the classic distance for females. But then again, these aren't any ordinary females, are they?

I have a feeling, although I could be wrong, what was between the lines and left unsaid was "not the 1 1/16th that asshole Jackson wants to race at".

I'm not legitmizing all this 10F talk, but both sides I'm sure were jockying for any advantage, and I have a feeling the side on "shorter" was most certainly Team Rachel. You'd have to assume they are stupid to think they weren't.

[Pick6]

I'm getting the sense from reading these recent posts that, if Zenyatta goes on to win this year's 2010 BC Classic, even then there will not be an acknowledgment from her detractors that she is absolutely the best runner in American racing.

[sandpit]

She's never run on 3 weeks rest, and I don't think they'll try to do that now. They want her in peak shape for the Classic, so they'll plan her races backwards from there. I would bet we get more one race out of her before she gets a breather, and I imagine it'd not be an overly challenging race.

She did run on 3 weeks rest between her debut and her second start (actually 22 days), but that's ancient history now. Can't see a cautious Sherriffs pushing her too much, but if you saw her after the race today, you have to think she could run every week and not get worn out.

[ghostyapper]

I'm getting the sense from reading these recent posts that, if Zenyatta goes on to win this year's 2010 BC Classic, even then there will not be an acknowledgment from her detractors that she is absolutely the best runner in American racing.

She could go on to win that, the arc, and the japan cup but there would still be doubters. It's just the way the sport works.

[Pick6]

I have a feeling, although I could be wrong, what was between the lines and left unsaid was "not the 1 1/16th that asshole Jackson wants to race at".

I'm not legitmizing all this 10F talk, but both sides I'm sure were jockying for any advantage, and I have a feeling the side on "shorter" was most certainly Team Rachel. You'd have to assume they are stupid to think they weren't.
I don't have a problem with a RA/Z race at 1 1/8. I just don't see it happening with > 50% chance. Because I know (as well as many others) that a 1 1/4 mile match style event like the Apple Blossom with RA/Z would never happen.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm getting the sense from reading these recent posts that, if Zenyatta goes on to win this year's 2010 BC Classic, even then there will not be an acknowledgment from her detractors that she is absolutely the best runner in American racing.Why would you think such a silly thing...assuming your typical quality DIRT BC Classic field shows up?

She can't be the best runner in American racing until she actually beats what others consider the best out there on dirt. That's my opinion. That's always been my opinion. American racing is still dirt racing.

So, if she does beat the best on the dirt, how in the world can I say she's not the best runner in American racing today?

[Pick6]

She could go on to win that, the arc, and the japan cup but there would still be doubters. It's just the way the sport works.
Exactly. Because the Arc is a turf race. Throw in the Melbourne Cup too.

[Pick6]

Why would you think such a silly thing...assuming your typical quality DIRT BC Classic field shows up?

She can't be the best runner in American racing until she actually beats what others consider the best out there on dirt. That's my opinion. That's always been my opinion. American racing is still dirt racing.

So, if she does beat the best on the dirt, how in the world can I say she's not the best runner in American racing today?
I see you are already couching this. (bolded) Winning the BC Classic would prove unconditionally she is the best. Everybody knows where and when this race is scheduled to be run. If trainers choose not to run their horses then that is their problem. Why they would fail to run in the most important race in the US is beyond me.

[PaceAdvantage]

I see you are already couching this.You are indeed a feisty one. This topic has certainly lit a fire in your belly. Welcome to the board. :lol:

[WinterTriangle]

At this point, I believe the connections took her out of retirement and Zen will go a few places mostly because of the desire to "share her with her fans."

Anyone still looking for some kind of test or for her to lose or whatever, is probably not looking where they should, IMHO

She is an ambassador to our sport. She need not win more than her already perfect record.

[ghostyapper]

So, if she does beat the best on the dirt, how in the world can I say she's not the best runner in American racing today?

Judging by your previous work, I'm sure you'll find a way. Like I said, opinions rarely change in this sport.

[WinterTriangle]

Why would you think such a silly thing...assuming your typical quality DIRT BC Classic field shows up?

She can't be the best runner in American racing until she actually beats what others consider the best out there on dirt. That's my opinion. That's always been my opinion. American racing is still dirt racing.

So, if she does beat the best on the dirt, how in the world can I say she's not the best runner in American racing today?

If the *quality* of the DIRT BC is not up to par, Zen won't be given credit if she wins. She already won the BC Classic, but it wasn't on dirt so she's still not great. She's 16 for 16 now, and still not great.


If you don't like her by now, or think she is great, you probably never will,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and of course, that's okay. ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

If the *quality* of the DIRT BC is not up to par, Zen won't be given credit if she wins. She already won the BC Classic, but it wasn't on dirt so she's still not great. She's 16 for 16 now, and still not great.


If you don't like her by now, or think she is great, you probably never will,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and of course, that's okay. ;)If the quality is not up to par, why should she get credit?

If the race isn't over the traditional dirt surface that every other truly great American horse competed over, why should we overlook this?

When people think of truly great American race horses, turf horses rarely if ever head the list. Why should synthetic runners be any different?

[Sekrah]

She could go on to win that, the arc, and the japan cup but there would still be doubters. It's just the way the sport works.

If she wins the BC Classic at CD, I'll give her dues. Until then, her dirt resume is extremely unimpressive.

[born2ride]

Well, from what Shirreffs said in the DRF article, it looks like she's headed back to Hollywood Park where her connections contemplate her next race.

[Pick6]

If the quality is not up to par, why should she get credit?

If the race isn't over the traditional dirt surface that every other truly great American horse competed over, why should we overlook this?

When people think of truly great American race horses, turf horses rarely if ever head the list. Why should synthetic runners be any different?
2010 BC Classic is on "dirt".

So she wins 2009 BC Classic on wax: does not count.
If she wins 2010 BC Classic on dirt: 99% chance you say competition was not good enough.

Let me tell you something about competition: great horses have a habit of making their competition look "not good enough".

I go on record saying that if Z wins 2010 BC Classic, you will not acknowledge she is the best American horse in training.

[statik27]

If she wins the BC Classic at CD, I'll give her dues. Until then, her dirt resume is extremely unimpressive.

Question for you Sekrah and I'm not picking on you, its just that you've stated on multiple threads that her dirt resume is unimpressive and I'm curious if you and other posters are aware of the history of DIRT racing in this country.

So tell me...What significant change in racing took place just before Man O' War made his racing debut in 1919, and what effect it may or may not have had on his race record?

Others can jump in and I'm not trying to start a fight, just trying to gain some perspective on this whole dirt vs. synth argument that never ends.

statik

[Pick6]

Starting gate?

Because dirt racing was established in the 1850's, Long Island first I believe. And it took some effort to construct a dirt track, e.g. killing the grass, getting out the rocks/pebbles, leveling the track, etc.

[statik27]

Starting gate?

Because dirt racing was established in the 1850's, Long Island first I believe. And it took some effort to construct a dirt track, e.g. killing the grass, getting out the rocks/pebbles, leveling the track, etc.

Well dirt racing was actually established by the 1820's in the north. The famed match race between Sir Henry and American Eclipse was run on dirt.

But it wasn't the starting gate, that came much later. Anyone else want to try?

[chickenhead]

world war 1

[statik27]

world war 1


Ha, ha. Well I suppose thats right. I was thinking more racing related. Come on, anyone?

[Fager Fan]

Ha, ha. Well I suppose thats right. I was thinking more racing related. Come on, anyone?

The only thing I can think of would be if an improved means of timing the races took place around that time?

But it seems you're going for something regarding dirt racing, so are you talking of the importation of European turf horses?

[chickenhead]

dont make me bust out my history of thoroughbred racing in America...I'm sure its in there somewhere...

[born2ride]

Well dirt racing was actually established by the 1820's in the north. The famed match race between Sir Henry and American Eclipse was run on dirt.

But it wasn't the starting gate, that came much later. Anyone else want to try?
The starting gate came into existence around 1940 or so. The first track in the US was in NY sometime around 1650 or thereabouts. The first dirt race that I know of is the match race you mentioned, though I thought the horse was Sir Charles not Sir Henry. :confused:

[Pick6]

Belmont ran their races clockwise and changed around 1915, IIRC. Not sure if this has anything to do with your question, though. Perhaps all American racing went to counter-clockwise around this time?

[statik27]

dont make me bust out my history of thoroughbred racing in America...I'm sure its in there somewhere...

Sorry Chickenhead, no need to dive into the library. I'm just trying to make a point. People think so little about the evolution of DIRT racing in america. A dirt main track is hardly a plowed field with a fence around it.

In the summer of 1918 Saratoga Race course put in a new dirt surface that included a state of the art drainage system. Over 20 speed records fell during that Meet. In the winter of 1919, Belmont Park followed suit, adding a similar drainage system, plus an extra layer of sand that let them tighten the track, producing tremendously faster times then over the previous surface. Ironically enough the new belmont surface became known as "The Rubber Track." It was these surfaces that Sir Barton won his Belmont over and Man O' war spent the vast majority of his career. But you don't see asterisks next to his many records.

In fact it was just the opposite, People loved it. They didn't cry foul and say that earlier champions were suddenly cast aside or overshadowed by the new record holders, they just accepted it and moved on and forgot about it. Today you'd think Cigar ran over the same belmont strip that Colin did by most peoples opinions, but it's just not true.

Now I'm no great fan of Synth surfaces, but they're a part of racing right now, whether for the next year or one hundred years. To say that Zenyatta is somehow lessened by running over these surfaces is a terrible injustice, both to the mare herself and racing history in general.

She's won 16 straight races and 10 grade 1's, not because of the surface or competition, but because she's a champion.

statik

[OntheRail]

She could go on to win that, the arc, and the japan cup but there would still be doubters. It's just the way the sport works.
Exactly. Because the Arc is a turf race. Throw in the Melbourne Cup too.

Wow you guys really have your heads up there... right to the elbows.

Better pull 'em out and take a deep breath. :lol:

[miesque1127]

Word on the grapevine is that Zenyatta's connections want to face stiffer competition in her next race. They are going to challenge Zippy Chippy to a match-race.

Seen your act on the Thorograph board. You are a real piece of work. They beat you up pretty good over there. That one dude Dub was making you look like a fool. Funny stuff yet you come back for more.

Zenyatta is the real deal. have another glass of Hatorade loser.

[gm10]

Does she go to Churchill to face Careless Jewel and possibly Zardana and Rachel Alexandra or does she go for a local race like the Milady to secure the elusive 17th straight win?

It may depend on Rachel Alexandra's connections, as they aren't committed to the La Troienne anyways.

She's in top form right now, so I'm thinking CD to get her familiar with the track, followed by a few easy months to get her ready for the Breeders Cup 2010

[bisket]

Well, we know it won't be ARL, KEE, or WO. I never considered DEL. Makes sense to me; do they have the $ to stake a $3 million event? I think that's is what it will take.
del handy is already a 1 mill purse, and del park is owned by private ownership; william rickman. you know in the mid atlantic, delaware has always been the track that the best races for older fillies and mares have competed. i'm sure rickman could come up with the dough. they have slots to enhance the purses, and i'm sure he'll be looking for some way compete with jersey's purse hike this year. its also a "neutral" track in the minds of both owners, tends to play rather fair. i think it makes alot of sense, and even more important i can be there for the race :jump: :jump:

[Robert Goren]

We need to hear from Jackson about what he is going to do with RA. I have seen no signs that he intends to runner her anytime soon. Her WOs continue to pretty slow for a horse of that caliber which indicates to me that we are not likely to see her anytime soon. Until RA starts back up again, it really doesn't matter what Z does. JMO

[bisket]

you can't rely on workout times for any indication of whether a horse trained by assmussen is ready or not. i don't know how he does it, but he plays tricks with the clocking of his works. i know this because curlin's workout times were similar to the times you are seeing for rachel. well when curlin went to santa anita for the cup a few years back; where works are scrutinized much closer than other tracks; curlin ran a 6 furlong work just before the classic in 1:11!!! the fastest work by far ever recorded for him. always look at workout times from assmussen with very cautious analysis.

[PaceAdvantage]

If she wins 2010 BC Classic on dirt: 99% chance you say competition was not good enough.

Let me tell you something about competition: great horses have a habit of making their competition look "not good enough".

I go on record saying that if Z wins 2010 BC Classic, you will not acknowledge she is the best American horse in training.Who the hell are you and where do you get off telling me what I will or won't do? You've been here a month?

I suggest you chill. I've already told you what would happen if she beats Grade 1 Males on dirt. My entire opinion of her will change.

[joanied]

i have my fingers crossed that delaware park does something to get zen and rachel together for the del park handicap this summer. boy that would make my decade. :ThmbUp: it would make sense. zen won't go to new york. i just think this meeting should take place at a smaller track.

bisket...in one of Moss's interveiws he said he'd like to take her to Belmont:)

[miesque]

bisket...in one of Moss's interveiws he said he'd like to take her to Belmont:)

I saw that comment and he also mentioned showing up at a race at Churchill between now and the Breeders Cup. Looking at the tea leaves based on that along with the comment that they like Grade Is and races at 1 1/8 miles led me to think that the Beldame is the most likely race for Zenyatta to show up at Belmont and the Stephen Foster at Churchill based on the stakes schedules at both of those tracks. I would peg the number of additional races she will make outside of California as three (including the Breeders Cup at Churchill).

[tzipi]

bisket...in one of Moss's interveiws he said he'd like to take her to Belmont:)

That would be awesome :ThmbUp:. Those wide sweeping turns should work in her favor.

[hazzardm]

Why would they say they like 1 1/8 mile races? Don't they know 10 furlongs is the classic distance that everyone here is clamoring for?

I hope all those who bash team Rachel will also bash team Zenyatta for this kind of thinking.

Never mind that 10 furlongs is not the classic distance for females. But then again, these aren't any ordinary females, are they?

Rachel going to a grade 2 sprint, Zen looking for female classic G1s. Not much comparison at this time.
I think the analogy on a different thread about Favorite Trick and Rachel A. playing out the same is dead on.

[miesque]

By the way, the race I think it would be a shame if she did not run in it considering its in her backyard is the Hollywood Gold Cup. There is so much history to that race and its really something to look at all of the names etched in gold on that Gold Cup wall at Hollywood Park, starting with Seabiscuit to Citation to Swaps, Round Table, Affirmed, Ferdinand, Cigar, Skip Away, etc... In all likelihood there are not going to be too many more names on that list and Zenyatta's name would a fitting end of the list should this be the last year Hollywood is around.

[hazzardm]

Who the hell are you and where do you get off telling me what I will or won't do? You've been here a month?

I suggest you chill. I've already told you what would happen if she beats Grade 1 Males on dirt. My entire opinion of her will change.

Why would one race make any difference between adulation versus scorn?

[PhantomOnTour]

Just run her in the Stephen Foster vs boys at CD and lay down the law. Send the message early that CD and boys on dirt are within her scope.

[hazzardm]

Just run her in the Stephen Foster vs boys at CD and lay down the law. Send the message early that CD and boys on dirt are within her scope.

Although it will be the boys doing the testing of their cajones.
:ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Why would one race make any difference between adulation versus scorn?For me, beating Grade 1 males on dirt is a huge deal. That's why I am a huge Rachel fan.

To you, I suppose it doesn't matter much.

[hazzardm]

For me, beating Grade 1 males on dirt is a huge deal. That's why I am a huge Rachel fan.

To you, I suppose it doesn't matter much.

Not to the near bi-polar psychotic levels shown by some on this topic.

[PaceAdvantage]

Not to the near bi-polar psychotic levels shown by some on this topic.Clever. Not.

It's a horse racing board. We debate horse racing. Why are you injecting wild, bullshit psycho-babble into the discussion?

You don't like an opinion? That's fine. Just don't start with the weak-ass name calling.

And you're way off in any event. Not even close to the meaning of bi-polar.

[hazzardm]

It's a horse racing board. We debate horse racing. Why are you injecting wild, bullshit psycho-babble into the discussion?

You don't like an opinion? That's fine. Just don't start with the weak-ass name calling.

And you're way off in any event. Not even close to the meaning of bi-polar.

LOL, I just made the phrase up.

Whoever said I don't like varying opinions? I still find it shrill to chastise one of the best mares of the last 50 years. That is my opinion.

I mean, she has never lost a race on a surface that is tailor made for more random finishes and results. I find her poly record speaks even more of her abilities, not less.

If poly is like turf, then perhaps she should be compared to any of the great Euro champs (besides that one that was 50-0 or somethin). I do not recall any in recent times with such a remarkable group stakes stakes record. Yet, they are considered great horses.

[tzipi]

LOL, I just made the phrase up.

Whoever said I don't like varying opinions? I still find it shrill to chastise one of the best mares of the last 50 years. That is my opinion.

I mean, she has never lost a race on a surface that is tailor made for more random finishes and results.

Zen should'nt get beat up because she is a very very good mare and great for racing, but found it also weird one of the best 3yo fillies of all time got beat up too by some fans. Both took heat.

Poly is tailor made for closers just like turf. Now the odds of the closers coming in and the random finishes is a different story but "Polyturf" is a closing surface.

[Fager Fan]

Just run her in the Stephen Foster vs boys at CD and lay down the law. Send the message early that CD and boys on dirt are within her scope.

As evidenced by that 95 Beyer.

[Spalding No!]

If poly is like turf, then perhaps she should be compared to any of the great Euro champs (besides that one that was 50-0 or somethin). I do not recall any in recent times with such a remarkable group stakes stakes record. Yet, they are considered great horses.

Zenyatta's record, though remarkable, should be noted for its lack of open races and for that matter, classic races.

The same won't be said of the great Europeans, which is why you won't find any with an unbeaten record, though Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef came close.

[joanied]

I saw that comment and he also mentioned showing up at a race at Churchill between now and the Breeders Cup. Looking at the tea leaves based on that along with the comment that they like Grade Is and races at 1 1/8 miles led me to think that the Beldame is the most likely race for Zenyatta to show up at Belmont and the Stephen Foster at Churchill based on the stakes schedules at both of those tracks. I would peg the number of additional races she will make outside of California as three (including the Breeders Cup at Churchill).

I thought that too...the Beldame...as mentioned, Belmont is custom made for her (tzipi)....and, unless things have changed since I worked there, get her bedded down in one of the barns on 'millionare row' (barns #1-10) where it's quiet and close to the main track...she'd be just fine.
I beleive they would for sure run her one time at CD...that's a no brainer...and I would not be surprised if they think abot Saratoga also...although, I don't know how kind the turns at the Spa would be for her.
jeeze...if she runs at Belmont...I would rather be there to see her in person than anyplace else...I even still have some family there...

Have you heard anything about what 'they' decided at Belmont concerning the D-Barn?

[gm10]

As evidenced by that 95 Beyer.

It was a workout for Zenyatta. Ratings are not applicable here.

[gm10]

Zenyatta's record, though remarkable, should be noted for its lack of open races and for that matter, classic races.

The same won't be said of the great Europeans, which is why you won't find any with an unbeaten record, though Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef came close.

She certainly beat those Europeans in the Classic (open to all comers).

[Fager Fan]

Zenyatta's record, though remarkable, should be noted for its lack of open races and for that matter, classic races.

The same won't be said of the great Europeans, which is why you won't find any with an unbeaten record, though Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef came close.

The problem with Europeans is their lack of excellence over a long period of time. Sea The Stars was a nice horse, but for only 9 races (and not even all of those were wins). Same for Zarkava, who I think has 6 races, maybe 7. The one most claim as best ever was Sea Bird, another with few races (8, and again not all wins).

Affirmed, on the other hand, had twice as many grade 1 wins as Zarkava had total starts.

European racing's just another animal, and I much prefer our animal.

[joanied]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
Zenyatta's record, though remarkable, should be noted for its lack of open races and for that matter, classic races.

The same won't be said of the great Europeans, which is why you won't find any with an unbeaten record, though Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef came close.




The problem with Europeans is their lack of excellence over a long period of time. Sea The Stars was a nice horse, but for only 9 races (and not even all of those were wins). Same for Zarkava, who I think has 6 races, maybe 7. The one most claim as best ever was Sea Bird, another with few races (8, and again not all wins).

Affirmed, on the other hand, had twice as many grade 1 wins as Zarkava had total starts.

European racing's just another animal, and I much prefer our animal.


I prefer ours also...but you two forgot one:
RIBOT...

16 Starts: 16 - 0 - 0, $294,414

At 2: Won Gran Criterium
At 3: Won Gran Premio del Jockey Club, Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe
At 4: Won Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, Gran Premio di Milano, K. George VI & Q. Elizabeth Stakes


Italian 2-YO Champion Colt (1954)
Italian 3-YO Champion Colt (1955)
Italian Champion Older Horse (1956)
United Kingdom Champion Older Horse (1956)
France Champion Older Horse (1956)
Leading sire in Great Britain & Ireland (1963, 1967, 1968)

[PaceAdvantage]

It was a workout for Zenyatta. Ratings are not applicable here.Sooner or later, something has to give. Either Zenyatta blows the door off and runs some sky high speed figs, or someone with better figs is going to beat her.

[gm10]

The problem with Europeans is their lack of excellence over a long period of time. Sea The Stars was a nice horse, but for only 9 races (and not even all of those were wins). Same for Zarkava, who I think has 6 races, maybe 7. The one most claim as best ever was Sea Bird, another with few races (8, and again not all wins).

Affirmed, on the other hand, had twice as many grade 1 wins as Zarkava had total starts.

European racing's just another animal, and I much prefer our animal.

I think the situation is very similar on both continents. Horses such as Ouija Board, Goldikova, Zenyatta, Curlin are the exceptions to the rule that you don't want to risk millions in breeding value for some extra prize money.

[gm10]

Sooner or later, something has to give. Either Zenyatta blows the door off and runs some sky high speed figs, or someone with better figs is going to beat her.

She's run sky high speed figs when it was required. The Clement Hirsch 2008 and the Apple Blossom 2008 were fast races. The Ladies Classic 2008 was very fast too.

She just wins wins wins. If she never gets beaten and never runs a super Beyer, are we going to classify the period 2008-2010 as three years where no horse in the world was capable of running high numbers?

[PaceAdvantage]

She's run sky high speed figs when it was required. The Clement Hirsch 2008 and the Apple Blossom 2008 were fast races. The Ladies Classic 2009 was very fast too.

She just wins wins wins. If she never gets beaten and never runs a super Beyer, are we going to classify the period 2008-2010 as three years where no horse in the world was capable of running high numbers?She got a 108 in the Clement Hirsch and a 112 in the 2009 BC Classic (her highest fig on the page). I don't have the 2008 Apple Blossom handy.

Doesn't matter though...the Beyer bashers will be around in a few minutes to tell us all how the figures don't mean anything...and the 120s that were put up by horses like Cigar, Skip Away, Holy Bull and other past mega-stars are somehow different than the 108s-112s Zenyatta consistently pulls.

[Spalding No!]

She certainly beat those Europeans in the Classic (open to all comers).

Yes, but we are talking about whole race records not a single race.

There's something to be said for repeatability.

[chickenhead]

she's not exactly retired yet, no use trying to quantify her career when the hope I think on everyones part is that shes going to be running in tougher spots this year. Even if she is absolutely great, all horses have weak spots, and match-ups matter, a lot like boxing. I am guessing she will meet a field that she needs to run more than 3F to beat. Or at least I hope they put her in spots where that should be the case -- and we'll all just have to wait to see what happens.

I hope shes in the Stephen Foster next.

[Fager Fan]

She got a 108 in the Clement Hirsch and a 112 in the 2009 BC Classic (her highest fig on the page). I don't have the 2008 Apple Blossom handy.

Doesn't matter though...the Beyer bashers will be around in a few minutes to tell us all how the figures don't mean anything...and the 120s that were put up by horses like Cigar, Skip Away, Holy Bull and other past mega-stars are somehow different than the 108s-112s Zenyatta consistently pulls.

104 in 2008 Apple Blossom.

[Robert Goren]

104 in 2008 Apple Blossom. That number says more about the Beyers numbers than it does about Zenyatta. JMO

[PaceAdvantage]

That number says more about the Beyers numbers than it does about Zenyatta. JMOActually, it tells us that people are more awed by winning streaks than by quality of competition along the way...

Rachel was running 108s (with a 116 high in the Haskell) with regularity as a 3yo. That's why many of us think she is as good or better than Zenyatta, especially given any improvement at four. This remains to be seen of course.

[Cratos]

104 in 2008 Apple Blossom.

I am neither anti-Beyer nor am I a Beyer basher, but to use Beyer Speed Figures as an indicator of greatness or quality for a race horse borders on using “smoke and mirrors” to predict the future.

Statistically, there so much wrong with the Beyer Speed Figures and its counterpart, the track variant it would be both laughable and boring to explain their weaknesses.

Zenyatta is just one of those rare race horses that come along whose ability will never be accurately measured. There is little doubt that her ability might have been somewhat determined if Rachel had been in the Apple Blossom and Rachel was at the top of her game.

Rachel at the top of her game would put tremendous pressure on a deep closer at the a distance of 1 1/8 miles or less.

The races that I would like to see Zenyatta entered would be either the 1 1/8 mile Whitney, or the 1 ¼ mile Personal Ensign at Saratoga, or the 1 1/8 mile Beldame, or the 1 ¼ mile JCGC at Belmont. They are all Grade I races with two of them being open races.

[bisket]

Sooner or later, something has to give. Either Zenyatta blows the door off and runs some sky high speed figs, or someone with better figs is going to beat her.
we first have to come up with a horse and connections with a set of balls (figure of speech) ;) to race her on the east coast!!

[bisket]

you know one thing that i think is curious and hasn't really been mentioned. when has jackson and assmussen actually announced a month before a race that rachel was going to run there, and it be an OPEN race. they have been quietly waiting for lists of probable runners and picking opportune spots for her. rachel has yet to race in a race that she couldn't control early pace. lets see going forward when an open race is announced a month prior!!!! everyone has known most of zens race in plenty of time to ADJUST THEIR SCHEDULES TO HIGH TAIL IT AND RUN!!!!

[cpitt84]

she needs to race males on dirt from here on out. she needs to quiet her remaining critics.

[bisket]

i think she'll be in the foster. the fact of the matter is zenyatta has control of her destiny. she had more control on who won hoy than rachel. it was the fact that she was raced so conservatively that opened the door for rachel. yes rachel's wins last year were good for a 3 year old filly, but none of them match what zenyatta is capable of. zen has the ability to beat males at a 1 1/4 mile. rachel doesn't. that puts her in the driver's seat. assmussen has been trying to rectify this, but its not working. zenyatta's connections only have to announce where she'll race, and it'll be up to rachel to come and get her. fact of the matter is rachel has been riding shotgun the whole time.

[born2ride]

i think she'll be in the foster. the fact of the matter is zenyatta has control of her destiny. she had more control on who won hoy than rachel. it was the fact that she was raced so conservatively that opened the door for rachel. yes rachel's wins last year were good for a 3 year old filly, but none of them match what zenyatta is capable of. zen has the ability to beat males at a 1 1/4 mile. rachel doesn't. that puts her in the driver's seat. assmussen has been trying to rectify this, but its not working. zenyatta's connections only have to announce where she'll race, and it'll be up to rachel to come and get her. fact of the matter is rachel has been riding shotgun the whole time.
You have it all backwards.

Rachel was ranked on top of the leaderboards about mid-year last year and didn't relinquish that spot until Zenyatta's win in the Classic. That doesn't sound to me like Rachel walked through an already opened door (to paraphrase what you said), it says that Rachel opened her own HOY door. Rachel controlled HOY from June up until the Classic, Zenyatta's only chance to wrestle the award away was to win the Classic. Have you forgotten so quickly how upset people were with the talk of Rachel as HOY long before the season was over? There were ready to award it to her after her Preakness, but people wanted proof her win over the boys wasn't a fluke. So she blasted the doors off some really nice horses in the Haskell. Then people raised the bar again, and said yeah but can she beat older males. So off to the Woodward she goes and she shows that yep she can beat older males. This whole time Zenyatta is in California beating the same old crop of fillies and mares, her only chance at winning HOY was to win the Classic and do so in convincing fashion.

Fact of the matter is that with Rachel losing her first race this year, this is the first time Zenyatta's been in the driver's seat since 2008.

[bisket]

all zenyatta's connections needed to do was announce that they were coming east in hopes to race rachel and any older mares in a race on dirt for fillies and mares. if she did this at some point last summer, and won, she would have been hoy. EVEN IF RACHEL DIDN'T SHOW UP!! zenyatta definitely had the capability to do this, but her connections chose not to. this is how the door opened to rachel. zenyatta proved she can beat older males by winning the classic. there is in no way anyone can say with a straight face that the field in the woodward was any more accomplished than the classic field. this is why zenyatta has been in the drivers seat the whole time. she certainly could have easily accomplished this, and by not doing this, zenyatta's connections lowered the bar enough to allow rachel to take the award from her.

[Space Monkey]

zen has the ability to beat males at a 1 1/4 mile. rachel doesn't.

Excellent comment biskit. Its something I've believed through all this debate. I think its obvious that Z has more capability to overcome negative interrace developments than any horse alive right now.

[bisket]

Excellent comment biskit. Its something I've believed through all this debate. I think its obvious that Z has more capability to overcome negative interrace developments than any horse alive right now.
thats because she can run faster and longer than any horse alive right now.

[born2ride]

all zenyatta's connections needed to do was announce that they were coming east in hopes to race rachel and any older mares in a race on dirt for fillies and mares. if she did this at some point last summer, and won, she would have been hoy. EVEN IF RACHEL DIDN'T SHOW UP!! zenyatta definitely had the capability to do this, but her connections chose not to. this is how the door opened to rachel. zenyatta proved she can beat older males by winning the classic. there is in no way anyone can say with a straight face that the field in the woodward was any more accomplished than the classic field. this is why zenyatta has been in the drivers seat the whole time. she certainly could have easily accomplished this, and by not doing this, zenyatta's connections lowered the bar enough to allow rachel to take the award from her.
Again not true. Rachel had already reeled off 5 wins, including a win in the Preakness before Zenyatta had her first race. Rachel opened her own door, it was not Zenyatta or her connections opening it for her. By the time Zenyatta was getting ready for her third race, Rachel had already won against males twice, set several records, and had 7 wins under her belt for the year. The cards were stacked against Zenyatta, Moss carried a good hand but he didn't play it. Adding another win against older filles/mares would not have won HOY for Moss, a win against males in addition to the Classic would've sealed the deal.

Why you ignoring the facts is beyond me, but Zenyatta did not drive the HOY race - it was Rachel. She set the bar so damn high and Jackson thought he could end her season after the Woodward with the comfort of thinking HOY was in the bag. Well, it wasn't in the bag and Zenyatta won the Classic decisively and made the voting far closer than he probably thought it would be. Maybe if you went back and reread some of the articles written mid-summer you'd see that Rachel drove HOY, not Zenyatta.

[tzipi]

Zen has the ability to beat males at a 1 1/4 mile. rachel doesn't.

Man, people just throw out history and what horses do in their careers. Didn't know RA career was over and no horse can run longer distances after a 3 yo season. Such great handicapping.
CHIEFS CROWN after dominating 1 1/8 races faded in the Derby running a 1 1/4 then faded in the Preakness and Belmont at 3 YO. Guess Chiefs Crown can't get more than 1 1/8, right? Nope, Chiefs Crown in his 4yo season won the Travers and Marlboro Cup at 1 1/4.
SKIP AWAY faded in his TC races and 1 1/4 races in his 3 YO season and also faded in his first 1 1/4 race of his 4YO season. Guess he can't get a 1 1/4. Nope, he went on to dominate 1 1/4 races and do it pulling away.

RA was a 3yo filly last year and didn't run 1 1/4. She is now a 4 yo and more mature. Let's see her races this year and career and her races before we say she can't run it. Man, you would think horse racing just started and there's no history on horses careers and how they mature :D . Also how many times did Zenny run 1 1/4 at 3YO??

[tzipi]

Excellent comment biskit. Its something I've believed through all this debate. I think its obvious that Z has more capability to overcome negative interrace developments than any horse alive right now.

See comment #90 last page. You don't throw out horses after their 3yo season if they didn't even run 1 1/4. Zen didn't run 1 1/4 till when? Horses mature. Let's see a career first before calling a horse out. Amazing the handicapping of RA ability after just a 3yo season. Too many examples of how horses mature through distances over the years. I figured people knew this.

[bisket]

you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but zenyatta would have recieved many more votes if she just simply proved she was the best older mare by winning a handicap on dirt. whether it was at belmont, saratoga, or even delaware. all of those races against males that rachel won were against a group of 3 year olds that the best horses were injured earlier in the year. so yes opportunity knocked and rachel answered, but the races she won wouldn't have put her resume above zens. zen beat males at the classic distance, and became the first female ever to win the biggest handicap race for older males in the states. she just needed to prove her caopabilities on dirt against the group of older mares in the east. which by the way rachel didn't prove she was better than. rachel never raced in an open race against fillies and mares. rachel never proved herself against the best filly on dirt: careless jewel!!! then again zenyatta didn't either. so this is how rachel won. zenyatta already proved more capable on dirt.

[bisket]

See comment #90 last page. You don't throw out horses after their 3yo season if they didn't even run 1 1/4. Zen didn't run 1 1/4 till when? Horses mature. Let's see a career first before calling a horse out. Amazing the handicapping of RA ability after just a 3yo season. Too many examples of how horses mature through distances over the years. I figured people knew this.
maturing won't assist rachel in this respect.

[tzipi]

maturing won't assist rachel in this respect.

Yup, just like it didnt help the consistently fading Chiefs Crown,Skip Away,etc,etc,etc. I'm sure you know for sure what every horse can do. You would own an island right now Bisket ;)
Horses mature. Been around too many barns,horses and looked over hundreds of champions races over the years to be fooled into thinking you know what happened in Rachels 4YO 2010 season already.

[Fager Fan]

maturing won't assist rachel in this respect.

It seems to have helped Zenyatta, who didn't even try it until the Fall of her 5yo year.

[Fager Fan]

Yup, just like it didnt help the consistently fading Chiefs Crown,Skip Away,etc,etc,etc. I'm sure you know for sure what every horse can do. You would own an island right now Bisket ;)
Horses mature. Been around too many barns,horses and looked over hundreds of champions races over the years to be fooled into thinking you know what happened in Rachels 4YO 2010 season already.

Well, you know 1 3/16 is SO much shorter than 1 4/16. It's obvious to even the most dunciest of stooges that a filly who beats males in a TC race at 1 3/16 will never, ever, ever be able to get another 1/16 further.

Did everyone hear that Shirreffs wants to keep Zenyatta at 1 1/8 miles going forward? He obviously did NOT get the memo that the distance that she's unbeatable at is 1 1/4.

[bisket]

just because some horses were able to go longer when they became older doesn't mean rachel will be capable of doing it. the travers is a 3 year old only race which means if chiefs crown won it he did it as a 3 year old by the way. lets also get something straight. they won at 1 1/4 mile against who? if rachel does improve it won't be enough to win against males at that distance. she could maybe pull off a personal ensign victory if other speed isn't in the race. see horses like rachel can win at 1 1/4 mile, but the race has to set up just right for her. for zenyatta this is nowhere near the case.

[Pick6]

2010 BC Classic is Z's goal. That is contested at 1 1/4 miles.

Any estimate % chance RA shows up for that one?

[bisket]

Well, you know 1 3/16 is SO much shorter than 1 4/16. It's obvious to even the most dunciest of stooges that a filly who beats males in a TC race at 1 3/16 will never, ever, ever be able to get another 1/16 further.

Did everyone hear that Shirreffs wants to keep Zenyatta at 1 1/8 miles going forward? He obviously did NOT get the memo that the distance that she's unbeatable at is 1 1/4.
ok she barely held off mine that bird. the testament to greatness :lol: i'm sure the events of this year will prove that i'm right. as long as zen stays healthy and happy. there is little doubt that even if rachel does manage to beat zen at 1 1/8 mile. rachel wil be toast in the classic. zenyatta will race in the classic without a doubt. it takes much more stamina to win at that distance on poly than dirt.

[bisket]

and by the way 1/16 of a mile makes a world of difference.

[tzipi]

just because some horses were able to go longer when they became older doesn't mean rachel will be capable of doing it. the travers is a 3 year old only race which means if chiefs crown won it he did it as a 3 year old by the way. lets also get something straight. they won at 1 1/4 mile against who? if rachel does improve it won't be enough to win against males at that distance. she could maybe pull off a personal ensign victory if other speed isn't in the race. see horses like rachel can win at 1 1/4 mile, but the race has to set up just right for her. for zenyatta this is nowhere near the case.

Bisket I'm sure after those champs faded every single time at long races you would been yelling from the mountain tops that they could handle longer distances. Cmon. You would be saying the same about them that you are saying about Rachel. You are calling off history and how horses mature. Bisket, what age did Zenny run her 1 1/4 race? It's her best distance,right?

A horse with early speed who can hit the lead or sit off the pace has to have the race set up for them??? No a pure closer needs the race to set up for them. Synthetics helps too. So sllooww paces don't hurt deep closers at all? Suure. I kind of get the level of experience here. Enjoy your thread and night Bisket.

[bisket]

there is little doubt in my mind the year play out and prove what i'm saying to be correct. there are certain reasons i don't believe rachel will be able to improve distance wise. i also think zenyatta was capable of winnning at 1 1/4 mile when she raced as a 4 year old. she only raced once as a 3 year old.

[bisket]

horses with early speed are always up against it at distances greater than 1 1/8 mile. speed horses can still control their destiny at that distance. they need help when running longer though. at 1 1/4 mile stamina types are actually in more control of their destiny. the deck is stacked against rachel.

[Pick6]

Asmussen is apparently trying. RA has been galloping out 1 1/2 miles recently, perhaps trying to train out some of her speed, and improve her endurance.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[tzipi]

there is little doubt in my mind the year play out and prove what i'm saying to be correct. there are certain reasons i don't believe rachel will be able to improve distance wise. i also think zenyatta was capable of winnning at 1 1/4 mile when she raced as a 4 year old. she only raced once as a 3 year old.

No reasons listed though?
Anyway, Zen didn't run a 1 1/4 all 4yo season. Just like RA didn't her 3 YO season. RA was 3, not 4. So you knew she was capable of 1 1/4 but Sherriffs and Moss didn't?? Geez. Yeah they purposely ducked big money 1 1/4 races then? I think not. How 1 1/4 this year?
You know for sure that horses or Rachel wont mature in distance even though most all do from looking at past history of racing? Ok, well I don't buy into this and never would. Worked with thoroughbreds too long to buy into bettors info. Ok well seriously bisket enjoy. We must agree, to disagree. :)

[Pick6]

So are you saying RA is 80% go for BC Classic? Or something lower?

[bisket]

she runs with her head held high. it makes it very difficult for the jockey to rate her in a race. its really a testament to rachel how well behaved she is during her races. most male horses that run like this are rogues. rachel is going to do what she wants to do in a race. now if they find a way to convince her to slow down early hats off to them. i don't think its going to happen. she reminds me of hard spun. they both just love to run. you know its the horse's race. let them enjoy what they're doing, and they'll make your wallet fat. rachel will take them very far this year if they let her do what she wants. if they keep fussing and fighting with her; she'll stay in the same league with zardana.

[tzipi]

horses with early speed are always up against it at distances greater than 1 1/8 mile. speed horses can still control their destiny at that distance. they need help when running longer though. at 1 1/4 mile stamina types are actually in more control of their destiny. the deck is stacked against rachel.

So horses with speed who can sit off the pace are always up against it at 1 1/4 or greater and deep pure closers(15+lengths) are more in control no matter the pace,traffic,etc? Wow. Again we agree to disagree. ;)

[ruffian75]

I am dreaming a bit here...but I think this is a nice sched for Z

Stephen Foster

Delaware Handicap

Woodward or Personal Ensign

Jockey Club Gold Cup

I think that would put her earnings at $8M or so and Curlin's mark would be in range.

Its just me dreaming. But, I think if she ran a few East Coast races her "standing" would increase incredibly. I think the veneer of "synthetic specialist" is kind of out the window with another dirt win.

[BluegrassProf]

I'll believe it when I see it. :D Ah, sealing the deal with dazzling irony!



:faint: *thud*


Seeeeeeriously. Gonna give yourselves heartburn. :blush:

[tzipi]

I am dreaming a bit here...but I think this is a nice sched for Z

Stephen Foster

Delaware Handicap

Woodward or Personal Ensign

Jockey Club Gold Cup

I think that would put her earnings at $8M or so and Curlin's mark would be in range.

Its just me dreaming. But, I think if she ran a few East Coast races her "standing" would increase incredibly. I think the veneer of "synthetic specialist" is kind of out the window with another dirt win.

That is a great schedule. Would love to see it. Give me a race at Belmont with Zenny. She would use those wide turns to her advantage. Plus, would be great to see Belmont packed and Zen showing off for the New Yorkers. :ThmbUp:

[Pick6]

Nope. Just waiting for it to happen, that's all.

[bisket]

rachel is not a horse that willingly sits off the pace. if she decides to do this she does it. so if the stars are aligned she may just finsh second in the classic instead 5th or 6th.

[tzipi]

rachel is not a horse that willingly sits off the pace. if she decides to do this she does it. so if the stars are aligned she may just finsh second in the classic instead 5th or 6th.

She sat off the pace in the Mother Goose and Kentucky Oaks for a bit. Horses like Eillo and Groovy could'nt sit off the pace. RA can. Are you trying to frustrate me with these posts bisket :D . We'll continue tomorrow or something Bis. :ThmbUp: Enjoy. Sleep time.

[Fager Fan]

ok she barely held off mine that bird. the testament to greatness :lol: i'm sure the events of this year will prove that i'm right. as long as zen stays healthy and happy. there is little doubt that even if rachel does manage to beat zen at 1 1/8 mile. rachel wil be toast in the classic. zenyatta will race in the classic without a doubt. it takes much more stamina to win at that distance on poly than dirt.

So, is Anabaa's Creation -- the horse who Zenyatta barely got by to win by a head -- better than, worse than, or equal to Mine That Bird?

[bisket]

zip its a fact, and why i'm so very cockey that zen will beat her. if a horse next to rachel at the start trys to run past her early she goes with that horse. its just a matter of whether or not rachel gets her competitiveness up or not at the beginning of the race. its totally a matter of racing luck. watch her races you'll see what i'm talking about.

[bisket]

So, is Anabaa's Creation -- the horse who Zenyatta barely got by to win by a head -- better than, worse than, or equal to Mine That Bird?
looking at who you picked for your name your a lost cause on this subject

[born2ride]

Asmussen is apparently trying. RA has been galloping out 1 1/2 miles recently, perhaps trying to train out some of her speed, and improve her endurance.

I'll believe it when I see it.
Huh? Rachel was galloping at 1 1/2 miles last year in between her works. That is not something new.

Train out speed? I showed your post to my trainer, his and his wife's response was :lol:

Yeah you can train endurance, but it's not done by compromising speed.

[born2ride]

just because some horses were able to go longer when they became older doesn't mean rachel will be capable of doing it. the travers is a 3 year old only race which means if chiefs crown won it he did it as a 3 year old by the way. lets also get something straight. they won at 1 1/4 mile against who? if rachel does improve it won't be enough to win against males at that distance. she could maybe pull off a personal ensign victory if other speed isn't in the race. see horses like rachel can win at 1 1/4 mile, but the race has to set up just right for her. for zenyatta this is nowhere near the case.
The race has to set up just right for Rachel, but for Zenyatta this is nowhere near the case? That's your claim? Aren't you the same guy who was excusing away Zenyatta's slow time yesterday blaming it on the other horses setting a slow pace? In other words, you're saying Zenyatta can run a faster race if it is set up for her; yet now you claim the opposite.

Classic. :bang:

[Pick6]

Huh? Rachel was galloping at 1 1/2 miles last year in between her works. That is not something new.

Train out speed? I showed your post to my trainer, his and his wife's response was :lol:

Yeah you can train endurance, but it's not done by compromising speed.
Ok. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bold_Forbes)

[Pick6]

The race has to set up just right for Rachel, but for Zenyatta this is nowhere near the case? That's your claim? Aren't you the same guy who was excusing away Zenyatta's slow time yesterday blaming it on the other horses setting a slow pace? In other words, you're saying Zenyatta can run a faster race if it is set up for her; yet now you claim the opposite.

Classic. :bang:
Last time I checked, Zenyatta won the race. So I don't quite understand your logic about the race needing to be setup for Zenyatta to win. In fact, her worst performance was in a race with a very fast pace.

So Z wins:
-in traffic;
-slow pace;
-fast pace.

It is quite obvious Z runs to the level of her competition. Anybody who cannot see that fails miserably.

[RXB]

rachel never raced in an open race against fillies and mares. rachel never proved herself against the best filly on dirt: careless jewel!!!

Careless Jewel is a good horse but would not have given RA any trouble last year. Careless Jewel beat no filly that was even remotely close to being a Grade 1 horse last year.

[born2ride]

Last time I checked, Zenyatta won the race. So I don't quite understand your logic about the race needing to be setup for Zenyatta to win. In fact, her worst performance was in a race with a very fast pace.

So Z wins:
-in traffic;
-slow pace;
-fast pace.

It is quite obvious Z runs to the level of her competition. Anybody who cannot see that fails miserably.
She sure did win, finishing in a snail's pace. And the reason why is because the pace was slow. In other words, she needs the pace to be fast to run fast which is the same as saying she needs the race to be setup for her.

[Pick6]

She sure did win, finishing in a snail's pace. And the reason why is because the pace was slow. In other words, she needs the pace to be fast to run fast which is the same as saying she needs the race to be setup for her.
No, her worst race was with a fast pace.

Again, she wins:
-in traffic;
-slow pace;
-fast pace.

The race does NOT need to be setup for her to win. She wins regardless, and performs to the level of her competition.

[RXB]

Careless Jewel is a good horse but would not have given RA any trouble last year. Careless Jewel beat no filly that was even remotely close to being a Grade 1 horse last year.

I do have to correct myself slightly because I forgot about the sprinter, Cat Moves, who won the 6f Prioress. Subsequently, she finished third behind Flashing (who also won the Gazelle, yet was stomped by RA in the Mother Goose) in the Test and then showed she is pretty much sprint only by folding badly in the Cotillon which was won by Careless Jewel.

[Jasonm921]

The issue with Beyer figures on DIRT have been when they take their eyes off the smaller tracks and maybe the third string Beyer technician doesn't do the proper calculation. I have never had an issue with Beyers numbers on big days or when it is obvious that Beyer himself will be looking at the numbers. Now I know that this was a very easy race for Zenyatta but if Rachel would have ran a 95 Beyer, Asmussen would have sent her for X-rays to see what was wrong with her.

[eastie]

She sure did win, finishing in a snail's pace. And the reason why is because the pace was slow. In other words, she needs the pace to be fast to run fast which is the same as saying she needs the race to be setup for her.


maybe the reason was that she was already in front 3/16th's from home and was geared down the rest of the way. It's getting old reading these posts knocking the champ. Get it through your thick skull....any place any time vs. any body on any surface at any distance. She will prevail. She is ZENYATTA.

[gm10]

She got a 108 in the Clement Hirsch and a 112 in the 2009 BC Classic (her highest fig on the page). I don't have the 2008 Apple Blossom handy.

Doesn't matter though...the Beyer bashers will be around in a few minutes to tell us all how the figures don't mean anything...and the 120s that were put up by horses like Cigar, Skip Away, Holy Bull and other past mega-stars are somehow different than the 108s-112s Zenyatta consistently pulls.

I was using my own numbers - those three performances are about the same as what RA got in the Woodward - and in line with many of the great wins of the last 5 years.

[Tom]

The race does NOT need to be setup for her to win. She wins regardless, and performs to the level of her competition.


AND.....she dances too! :cool:

I feel sorry for those so blinded by the mere suggestion that she is better tan RA that they cannot enjoy this great mare.

I enjoy watching them both run. If they do meet, I say on dirt, 10 furlongs, on poly one mile. But do not think they will ever face each other.

[DeanT]

Jay Hovdey:

http://hovdeyblog.drf.com/hovdeyblog/2010/04/so-that-happened-and-now-in-the-wake-of-zenyattas-tour-of-the-course-on-friday-at-oaklawn-park-the-racing-world-will-be-ro.html

Asmussen was entertaining on a variety of subjects, but when it comes to Rachel Alexandra, he sounds like a man trying to discuss nuclear capabilities without the proper security clearance. What he did say, and it was revealing, was that while Rachel Alexandra is in fine fettle physically, his crew has been so far "unsuccessful" in returning her to what Asmussen defines as her competitive level of last year.

In some ways, this is liberating. For too long, for too many fans, it has been hard to think of Zenyatta without bringing Rachel Alexandra into the conversation, or discuss the future of Rachel Alexandria without accounting for Zenyatta's presence in the mix. Now, with Asmussen all but warning us off, we can only step back and wish him and the filly well, while savoring the big mare in action.

[joanied]

Quote:
Asmussen was entertaining on a variety of subjects, but when it comes to Rachel Alexandra, he sounds like a man trying to discuss nuclear capabilities without the proper security clearance. What he did say, and it was revealing, was that while Rachel Alexandra is in fine fettle physically, his crew has been so far "unsuccessful" in returning her to what Asmussen defines as her competitive level of last year




He doesn't sound very confident...which is quite disconserting...but how can he/they be so sure about her not getting back to the level of last year...she only raced the one time and everyone knew she was not 100% fit for it, yet she tried hard and only was beat by 1/2 length...IMO, you have to give her the benefit of the doubt at this point in time. I could understand him saying that if Rachel had finished up the track in the NO, but come on...she tried and just failed by a very small margin.

[DeanT]

The issue with Beyer figures on DIRT have been when they take their eyes off the smaller tracks and maybe the third string Beyer technician doesn't do the proper calculation. I have never had an issue with Beyers numbers on big days or when it is obvious that Beyer himself will be looking at the numbers. Now I know that this was a very easy race for Zenyatta but if Rachel would have ran a 95 Beyer, Asmussen would have sent her for X-rays to see what was wrong with her.

I don't think so. SA knows when a horse wins right, and one who loses wrong. He does not need a speed figure to tell him about a horse's performance.

In the aftermath of her victory, as Shirreffs leaned against the rail and basked in the glow, Asmussen stood near his side. The replay flashed across the infield jumbotron, Zenyatta rolling home, cruising. Asmussen uttered one word: "Wow."

[Jasonm921]

That is called courtesy. The fact of the matter....it was SLOW.

[bisket]

The race has to set up just right for Rachel, but for Zenyatta this is nowhere near the case? That's your claim? Aren't you the same guy who was excusing away Zenyatta's slow time yesterday blaming it on the other horses setting a slow pace? In other words, you're saying Zenyatta can run a faster race if it is set up for her; yet now you claim the opposite.

Classic. :bang:
i said nothing of the sort. i said she only ran as fast as needed to win

[DeanT]

That is called courtesy. The fact of the matter....it was SLOW.

How many horses have you seen run a 95 beyer with his/her ears pricked the last furlong?

That is why Steve said "wow" as did most other seasoned race watchers.

[bisket]

The race has to set up just right for Rachel, but for Zenyatta this is nowhere near the case? That's your claim? Aren't you the same guy who was excusing away Zenyatta's slow time yesterday blaming it on the other horses setting a slow pace? In other words, you're saying Zenyatta can run a faster race if it is set up for her; yet now you claim the opposite.

Classic. :bang:
but it is true that its tough to run a fast race, speed figure wise, with a slow opening 1/2 mile. it is a contributing factor to why the race was so slow. the other factor being she never ran any faster than a gallop, for her.

[classhandicapper]

When people think of truly great American race horses, turf horses rarely if ever head the list. Why should synthetic runners be any different?

Because the game is changing towards turf and synthetic racing globally and great is great no matter what the distance or surface?

I think it's a flaw in the thinking of Americans to think that the greatest turfers and synthetic horses aren't great just because we mostly run on dirt here.

At best you can argue that most of the great turfers were European, but we've had a few here too and they were just as good at what they did as any dirt horses were at what they did.

[Show Me the Wire]

Train out speed? I showed your post to my trainer, his and his wife's response was :lol:

Yeah you can train endurance, but it's not done by compromising speed.


If your trainer really said the above, my suggestion is to get a new trainer if you want to win route races at 1 1/8th and longer,against top notch competition. My gut tells me there is an unintentional misunderstanding about "early' speed.

[Show Me the Wire]

Of course there are always exceptions to the general rules, like a War Emblem.

[PaceAdvantage]

She wins regardless, and performs to the level of her competition.No she doesn't. She beat those horses on Friday by over four lengths. That was far beyond the level of her competition, wouldn't you say?

[PaceAdvantage]

I was using my own numbers - those three performances are about the same as what RA got in the Woodward - and in line with many of the great wins of the last 5 years.I am one who never claimed Rachel was the best horse who ever lived. The only thing I've said about Rachel is that she was one of the greatest 3yo fillies ever. She ran an amazing 3yo campaign.

I know her Beyers are on par with Zenyatta's for the most part (however, Rachel's highest is a 116 earned in the Haskell, which is better than anything Zenyatta has ever run).

But I also know Rachel is capable of gaining a huge pace advantage over Zenyatta when they finally meet. That's why I believe Rachel will beat Zenyatta when they hook up.

I was also counting on Rachel getting a little better as a 4yo. That still may or may not happen. If it does, I really can't see Rachel losing to Zenyatta over the dirt.

[horses4courses]

I am one who never claimed Rachel was the best horse who ever lived. The only thing I've said about Rachel is that she was one of the greatest 3yo fillies ever. She ran an amazing 3yo campaign.

I know her Beyers are on par with Zenyatta's for the most part (however, Rachel's highest is a 116 earned in the Haskell, which is better than anything Zenyatta has ever run).

But I also know Rachel is capable of gaining a huge pace advantage over Zenyatta when they finally meet. That's why I believe Rachel will beat Zenyatta when they hook up.

I was also counting on Rachel getting a little better as a 4yo. That still may or may not happen. If it does, I really can't see Rachel losing to Zenyatta over the dirt.

There will be no shortage of people to remind you of these words, and tell you how wrong you were, should a showdown ever take place.
I intend to be one the first.
Should you be correct, I intend to acknowledge that, also.

[PaceAdvantage]

There will be no shortage of people to remind you of these words, and tell you how wrong you were, should a showdown ever take place.
I intend to be one the first.
Should you be correct, I intend to acknowledge that, also.And you know what? Should Rachel beat Zenyatta, I would NOT go around digging up the posts of everyone who told me I was wrong, and type "NAH NAH NAHNAH NAH...YOU SUCK!"

Not my style. Never has been. But if that's what gets you off, go for it.

[cpitt84]

Any one else annoyed that zenyatta's owners are still looking at races with other females?

I really, really believe she can beat any male and she needs to stop racing cupcakes. I understand sherrif/moss want easy wins but it's almost a given right now. Zenyatta will beat all females and she needs to go onto racing males.

[Nikki1997]

Any one else annoyed that zenyatta's owners are still looking at races with other females?

I really, really believe she can beat any male and she needs to stop racing cupcakes. I understand sherrif/moss want easy wins but it's almost a given right now. Zenyatta will beat all females and she needs to go onto racing males.

Zenyatta just got back to California today. Could we just WAIT a few days and see what the Z Team ACTUALLY has in mind for her, as opposed to some vague and generalized comments?

[horses4courses]

And you know what? Should Rachel beat Zenyatta, I would NOT go around digging up the posts of everyone who told me I was wrong, and type "NAH NAH NAHNAH NAH...YOU SUCK!"

Not my style. Never has been. But if that's what gets you off, go for it.

Couldn't read as far as the last line of my post?

[Fager Fan]

Because the game is changing towards turf and synthetic racing globally and great is great no matter what the distance or surface?

I think it's a flaw in the thinking of Americans to think that the greatest turfers and synthetic horses aren't great just because we mostly run on dirt here.

At best you can argue that most of the great turfers were European, but we've had a few here too and they were just as good at what they did as any dirt horses were at what they did.

First, where is the game changing towards synthetics globally? Besides the Sheikh's new toy in the desert, where is there another G1 in the world outside of the U.S. that is run on synthetics? What plans are there in the near future for anyone else outside of the U.S. to run G1s over the surface? When will Europe begin moving some of their G1s to the surface? What plans are there in Europe to put in synthetic courses alongside their famous turf courses?

It is an absolute fallacy that the world is moving towards synthetics. Outside of the Sheikh misjudging what surface to put down at Meydan, it's only US who put in these horrendous surfaces and started running big races over them.

And no one has ever thought that the great Euro turfers aren't great Euro turfers. We respect the quality of their horses that they've developed over decades and decades, just as we respect the quality of our dirt horses that we've developed over decades and decades.

Some of us do have a hard time respecting synthetic horses because not the first person has ever bred for a synthetic horse. Any horse who has happened to be good on synthetics was an accident.

[Tom]

It is an absolute fallacy that the world is moving towards synthetics. Outside of the Sheikh misjudging what surface to put down at Meydan, it's only US who put in these horrendous surfaces and started running big races over them.

When was the last one put down new in this country?
I doubt you will ever see another one replace dirt. Been there, done that, it was a failed experiment.

[eastie]

She's supposed to be pointing to the Foster at Churchill on june 12 at 9 furlongs. I think when she beats the boys on dirt, that might shut half of you up. The other half will be making excuses how Rachel shouda couda wouda beat Zenyatta, after The Champ swats her with her tail on the way by to victory.

[PaceAdvantage]

She's supposed to be pointing to the Foster at Churchill on june 12 at 9 furlongs. I think when she beats the boys on dirt, that might shut half of you up. The other half will be making excuses how Rachel shouda couda wouda beat Zenyatta, after The Champ swats her with her tail on the way by to victory.Another one repeating the same thing over and over again.

NOBODY should shut up. This is a horse racing forum. I encourage EVERYONE to keep debating. :lol:

[JustRalph]

I am with PA on this one. I think the type of runner is important. Horses that run like Rachel are much more successful than Closers.

Zenyatta is much more susceptible to race shape than Rachel is.

I would love to see them meet 3 times minimum. That way one race with some wild race shape doesn't hurt either one of them.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, it would be great theater to see them square off multiple times.

Racing fans rarely ever get what they want though...

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Rather than races some horses that it would be good to see Zenyatta race before she retires

Sidney's Candy. The best of the Cal 3YOs. Really good horse who so far has only raced on synthetics but at least he could give Zenyatta something to catch on the synthetics. He might go OK on dirt too but that is yet to be seen

Rail Trip if it is still around. Another synthetic one for her but might go on dirt too

Quality Road. She really has to race this one on dirt in 2010. BC Classic would be a good place for both to race

Eskendereya on dirt

With Sidney's Candy and Eskendereya a lot will depend on how deeply they get involved in the 3YO racing

Of course you have to add Rachel A but it seems with each passing day less and less likely she will ever race Zenyatta

[eastie]

Yes, it would be great theater to see them square off multiple times.

Racing fans rarely ever get what they want though...

Zenyatta would race Rachel into retirement after the first time. Zenyatta fans get what they want every time she runs......Victory !

[Fager Fan]

Rather than races some horses that it would be good to see Zenyatta race before she retires

Sidney's Candy. The best of the Cal 3YOs. Really good horse who so far has only raced on synthetics but at least he could give Zenyatta something to catch on the synthetics. He might go OK on dirt too but that is yet to be seen

Rail Trip if it is still around. Another synthetic one for her but might go on dirt too

Quality Road. She really has to race this one on dirt in 2010. BC Classic would be a good place for both to race

Eskendereya on dirt

With Sidney's Candy and Eskendereya a lot will depend on how deeply they get involved in the 3YO racing

Of course you have to add Rachel A but it seems with each passing day less and less likely she will ever race Zenyatta

While Zenyatta is beating up on a group of 4 severely overmatched opponents in a time that my grandma could run, Rachel is out working a bullet this morning.

The rumor of Rachel's demise is greatly exaggerated.

[chickenhead]

While Zenyatta is beating up on a group of 4 severely overmatched opponents in a time that my grandma could run, Rachel is out working a bullet this morning.

It really is quite amazing, and this is only partly in jest, that the other owners and trainers have let this obviously slow horse pile up $6 million. This is quite an amazing phenomenon, this almost outlandish stupidity on display spanning YEARS.

Now I realize that she generally runs on synthetics, a miracle surface that amazingly enough SHE is the only horse in the world it is suited to. A singular entity. It hinders every horses performance, except her, who it moves up. Now it does favor closers, and she is obviously the only closer around, but still, that doesn't explain it all. I think she wears magic shoes. A special composite forged from Shirrefs secret stash of unicorn tusk.

But, even allowing that other owners have been powerless to stop her and her magic shoes, on the magic/tragic surface that makes everyone slow -- unforgivably -- they have also let her, twice now, steal away with the G1 Apple Blossom and its large purse, arguably the top race of the Spring for Fillies. And with No Magic Shoes allowed!

WTF is wrong with everyone! We're talking millions and millions of dollars here, they aren't pitching pennies.

It is a singular set of events in the history of racing, that much is certain.

[bks]

^^It won't change their minds, Chickenhead, though it can scarcely be better said.

[Cadillakin]

It really is quite amazing, and this is only partly in jest, that the other owners and trainers have let this obviously slow horse pile up $6 million. This is quite an amazing phenomenon, this almost outlandish stupidity on display spanning YEARS.

Now I realize that she generally runs on synthetics, a miracle surface that amazingly enough SHE is the only horse in the world it is suited to. A singular entity. It hinders every horses performance, except her, who it moves up. Now it does favor closers, and she is obviously the only closer around, but still, that doesn't explain it all. I think she wears magic shoes. A special composite forged from Shirrefs secret stash of unicorn tusk.

But, even allowing that other owners have been powerless to stop her and her magic shoes, on the magic/tragic surface that makes everyone slow -- unforgivably -- they have also let her, twice now, steal away with the G1 Apple Blossom and its large purse, arguably the top race of the Spring for Fillies. And with No Magic Shoes allowed!

WTF is wrong with everyone! We're talking millions and millions of dollars here, they aren't pitching pennies.

It is a singular set of events in the history of racing, that much is certain.
Not just truth, but beautifully written, as well.

[bisket]

It really is quite amazing, and this is only partly in jest, that the other owners and trainers have let this obviously slow horse pile up $6 million. This is quite an amazing phenomenon, this almost outlandish stupidity on display spanning YEARS.

Now I realize that she generally runs on synthetics, a miracle surface that amazingly enough SHE is the only horse in the world it is suited to. A singular entity. It hinders every horses performance, except her, who it moves up. Now it does favor closers, and she is obviously the only closer around, but still, that doesn't explain it all. I think she wears magic shoes. A special composite forged from Shirrefs secret stash of unicorn tusk.

But, even allowing that other owners have been powerless to stop her and her magic shoes, on the magic/tragic surface that makes everyone slow -- unforgivably -- they have also let her, twice now, steal away with the G1 Apple Blossom and its large purse, arguably the top race of the Spring for Fillies. And with No Magic Shoes allowed!

WTF is wrong with everyone! We're talking millions and millions of dollars here, they aren't pitching pennies.

It is a singular set of events in the history of racing, that much is certain.
i was almost rolling on the floor when i read she is the only horse that the surface is suited for.

[PaceAdvantage]

Zenyatta would race Rachel into retirement after the first time. Zenyatta fans get what they want every time she runs......Victory !The word banal comes to mind...

[sandpit]

No she doesn't. She beat those horses on Friday by over four lengths. That was far beyond the level of her competition, wouldn't you say?

Far beyond the level would be destroying the field by 15-20 lengths, but I think her style would stop her from ever doing that. You don't see many supertalents that are also deep closers winning by huge margins. (If I misinterpreted your meaning, forgive me.)

I wonder what would happen if Mike Smith sent Zenyatta hard about a half mile from the wire, say in the Apple Blossom. Would Z have zoomed by and kept right on going?

[PaceAdvantage]

WTF is wrong with everyone! We're talking millions and millions of dollars here, they aren't pitching pennies.Indeed. Why have a majority of her fields been filled with an utter lack of talent? That is a good question. Is it an indictment of the filly & mare division in California?

Harping on beating Ginger Punch just isn't the same when Brownie Points beat her pretty good too...obviously, Ginger Punch wasn't all she could be that day.

[bisket]

Far beyond the level would be destroying the field by 15-20 lengths, but I think her style would stop her from ever doing that. You don't see many supertalents that are also deep closers winning by huge margins. (If I misinterpreted your meaning, forgive me.)

I wonder what would happen if Mike Smith sent Zenyatta hard about a half mile from the wire, say in the Apple Blossom. Would Z have zoomed by and kept right on going?
no it would ruin the fun for her. passing horses is what floats her boat.

[chickenhead]

Indeed. Why have a majority of her fields been filled with an utter lack of talent? That is a good question. Is it an indictment of the filly & mare division in California?

Indeed! But they aren't restricted races. Where are the East Coast shippers? Why do we ship the failed synth runners East to pop, yet the East never returns the favor? Instead they continue running against all the great East Coast horses, and have a hell of a time making any money. Can they not see this cupcake steam rolling slugs in Grade 1's?

Are the return flights broke? I'm serious.

What we really need to help our theory, is some enterprising owner of middling horse, say a nice NY-Bred Allowance horse, a one run closer that is getting distanced on the Aqu Inner, to ship out and swoop down on some of these graded races. If they're crappy on dirt, and they're a closer, they'll probably be good for at least a G2.

It boggles the mind that these owners don't see this.

[Cratos]

I am with PA on this one. I think the type of runner is important. Horses that run like Rachel are much more successful than Closers.

Zenyatta is much more susceptible to race shape than Rachel is.

I would love to see them meet 3 times minimum. That way one race with some wild race shape doesn't hurt either one of them.

You and PA are absolutely correct, Rachel Alexandra running style is the prelevant style for winning. The DRF once published that horses that run on the lead or near the lead win about 70% of all races run.

Having said that, it is the Zenyatta, Forego, and Curlin, types that causes us to wonder how do they win consistently with their deep closer running styles and the answer is simple; it is CLASS

[PaceAdvantage]

Indeed! But they aren't restricted races. Where are the East Coast shippers?Does an East Coaster have to ship all the way to California just to conduct a little poly lovin' experiment?

Traditionally, hasn't there been more west to east moves rather than the other way around?

Nobody ever claimed Zenyatta was easy pickins on the synthetics in California, did they? I wouldn't ship my Grade 1 filly or mare (if I had one) to California to face Zenyatta over synths. Zenyatta is the greatest synth runner of all time...even I admit that.

[chickenhead]

Does an East Coaster have to ship all the way to California just to conduct a little poly lovin' experiment?

With millions of dollars, buckets of black type, and fame and notoriety hanging at such low levels, it just doesn't seem like a plane ride is such a high barrier. You guys just need to find one with the magic feet. Surely if one set has been discovered, there must be others. It sounds like Z is going to be otherwise engaged this year most of the time, most of those filly G1 are left to the remainders. I hope somebody out there nuts up and comes out West to beat them. I'm serious, I hope we get some shippers, we need more coming this way. Fame and riches await.

Nobody ever claimed Zenyatta was easy pickins on the synthetics in California, did they? I wouldn't ship my Grade 1 filly or mare (if I had one) to California to face Zenyatta over synths. Zenyatta is the greatest synth runner of all time...even I admit that.

Some sportsman you are! ;)

[Tom]

She showed up for a shorter dirt race for half a mil outside of California and hardly anyone had the guts to take her on. Could have been for 5 million, if it hadn't for that second stringer. ;)

[eastie]

Does an East Coaster have to ship all the way to California just to conduct a little poly lovin' experiment?

Traditionally, hasn't there been more west to east moves rather than the other way around?

Nobody ever claimed Zenyatta was easy pickins on the synthetics in California, did they? I wouldn't ship my Grade 1 filly or mare (if I had one) to California to face Zenyatta over synths. Zenyatta is the greatest synth runner of all time...even I admit that.


You actually just posted something positive about Zenyatta :eek:

If they had a dirt race and your life depended on picking the winner of the race, and Zenyatta was in the race, you're telling me you would put your life in some other horse's hands instead of Supermare. If you can really say that, than you are either lying, or a complete mook who knows little about horseracing. nothing personal, but you just don't get it. Could you please spend a half hour and watch all of zenyatta's races.

[Pick6]

While Zenyatta is beating up on a group of 4 severely overmatched opponents in a time that my grandma could run, Rachel is out working a bullet this morning.

The rumor of Rachel's demise is greatly exaggerated.
1:12 6f morning workouts don't pay the bills. It is actually more convenient to get your workouts in the afternoon and receive a check for $300k. And all of the adulation and odds on favorite status next time out.

[born2ride]

1:12 6f morning workouts don't pay the bills. It is actually more convenient to get your workouts in the afternoon and receive a check for $300k. And all of the adulation and odds on favorite status next time out.
You might want to let Shirreffs in on your secret, as the next potential races being bantered about for Zenyatta are a whopping 6 weeks away. That's a long time between paychecks. :p

[BluegrassProf]

:bang:
If they had a dirt race and your life depended on picking the winner of the race, and Zenyatta was in the race, you're telling me you would put your life in some other horse's hands instead of Supermare. If you can really say that, than you are either lying, or a complete mook who knows little about horseracing. nothing personal, but you just don't get it. Could you please spend a half hour and watch all of zenyatta's races.This is a refreshingly brief post that does bang-up job of simplifying the "you either join Team Z and hold a cardboard sign or you're a dipstick (or any other not-so-complimentary title); you either say she'll win or you hate her" attitude that's managed to take hold of the popular discourse. Other racing variables be damned, you're either with her or against her. You either think she's the greatest evar, or a cupcake. And of course, if you're against her, you're tooootally for Rachel Alexandra (since it's far easier to judge a horse against a single competitor, rather than judging him/her against the real-world enormity of history, illogical though the former may be), since we've somehow transformed a HUGE sport into a virtual dicotomy - Zenyatta vs. Rachel, as opposed to each vs. history. This is why, for many, approaching legitimate critique of Zenyatta's cred thus far is so damned frustruating: rather than take critique on its own merits, it's automatically put through the "you hate zenyatta and don't understand racing and think rachel's the best thing since bagel pizzas and probably have no heart" filter, which is WILDLY misguided. It's just as easy for none of those things to be even remotely true. Especially the pizza one.

Of course, I'm biased: this very thing seems to happen to me all the fracking time lately. Thing is, I'm no Rachel fanboy, just as I'm no Zenyatta ideologue; I simply happen to disagree with some assessments, independent of Rachel, or of Quality Road, or of Ginger Punch, or of Ruffian, or of Go For Wand, or of Curlin, any other single horse that ever stepped onto a track. Judging horses in that way - especially over time, competition, surface, location, and career - is incredibly problematic, and we all know it. Zenyatta's cutesy prancing doesn't make it any less so.

That's not to mention the whole MTV approach we seem to be having, where it's all flashes-in-the-pan: "THE REAL DEAL!" "BEST EVAR!" "GREATNESS AND FABULOUSNESS!" before moving on to the next one....every time we remind ourselves how foolish it is one minute, we try our best to forget the next...

Bottom line for me, re: your post, eastie: how anyone can, in one breath, simplify the game so drastically and make sweeping condemnations of those who simply disagree (and do so based not on ignorance or emotional attachment, but on very clear, specific things) is absolutely beyond me. It's not about dismissing Zenyatta; it's about perspective and natural questions. It's not about Rachel; it's about every competitor on the track, and about every race - real and hypothetical. In short, I find your PA-judgement super ridiculous. ;)

That said, as I've said before, those that need to do so can absolutely carry on with the tears and jeers and finger-jabs...though it's not going to change much, other than to perhaps piss a few people off. Unless that's your intent, seems to me like a waste of energy...

[Pick6]

You might want to let Shirreffs in on your secret, as the next potential races being bantered about for Zenyatta are a whopping 6 weeks away. That's a long time between paychecks. :p
Zenyatta averages about 5 weeks between races, so this is fairly standard.

[chickenhead]

those Red Baron french bread pizzas are way better than bagel pizzas. You are either lying, or you don't know your microwavable pizzas. Please spend the 1:25 seconds to try one out.

[Pick6]

:bang:
This is a refreshingly brief post that does bang-up job of simplifying the "you either join Team Z and hold a cardboard sign or you're a dipstick (or any other not-so-complimentary title); you either say she'll win or you hate her" attitude that's managed to take hold of the popular discourse. Other racing variables be damned, you're either with her or against her. You either think she's the greatest evar, or a cupcake. And of course, if you're against her, you're tooootally for Rachel Alexandra (since it's far easier to judge a horse against a single competitor, rather than judging him/her against the real-world enormity of history, illogical though the former may be), since we've somehow transformed a HUGE sport into a virtual dicotomy - Zenyatta vs. Rachel, as opposed to each vs. history. This is why, for many, approaching legitimate critique of Zenyatta's cred thus far is so damned frustruating: rather than take critique on its own merits, it's automatically put through the "you hate zenyatta and don't understand racing and think rachel's the best thing since bagel pizzas and probably have no heart" filter, which is WILDLY misguided. It's just as easy for none of those things to be even remotely true. Especially the pizza one.

Of course, I'm biased: this very thing seems to happen to me all the fracking time lately. Thing is, I'm no Rachel fanboy, just as I'm no Zenyatta ideologue; I simply happen to disagree with some assessments, independent of Rachel, or of Quality Road, or of Ginger Punch, or of Ruffian, or of Go For Wand, or of Curlin, any other single horse that ever stepped onto a track. Judging horses in that way - especially over time, competition, surface, location, and career - is incredibly problematic, and we all know it. Zenyatta's cutesy prancing doesn't make it any less so.

That's not to mention the whole MTV approach we seem to be having, where it's all flashes-in-the-pan: "THE REAL DEAL!" "BEST EVAR!" "GREATNESS AND FABULOUSNESS!" before moving on to the next one....every time we remind ourselves how foolish it is one minute, we try our best to forget the next...

Bottom line for me, re: your post, eastie: how anyone can, in one breath, simplify the game so drastically and make sweeping condemnations of those who simply disagree (and do so based not on ignorance or emotional attachment, but on very clear, specific things) is absolutely beyond me. It's not about dismissing Zenyatta; it's about perspective and natural questions. It's not about Rachel; it's about every competitor on the track, and about every race - real and hypothetical. In short, I find your PA-judgement super ridiculous. ;)

That said, as I've said before, those that need to do so can absolutely carry on with the tears and jeers and finger-jabs...though it's not going to change much, other than to perhaps piss a few people off. Unless that's your intent, seems to me like a waste of energy...
All this talk about "best ever" was really stupid last year when everybody conveniently forgets that a few years ago Rags to Riches achieved something that Rachel Alexandra would not even attempt, much less ever achieve herself. How easily people forget. And don't even try comparing the 2009 Preakness to the 2007 Belmont Stakes against HOY Curlin.

[eastie]

those Red Baron french bread pizzas are way better than bagel pizzas. You are either lying, or you don't know your microwavable pizzas. Please spend the 1:25 seconds to try one out.


that's 2 awesome posts in the same thread...you're on a roll festus.

[BluegrassProf]

:D
those Red Baron french bread pizzas are way better than bagel pizzas. You are either lying, or you don't know your microwavable pizzas. Please spend the 1:25 seconds to try one out.You know, you're absolutely right...I gladly and vocally rescind my comment!

Heck, sign me up for Team Baron! :jump:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2739/4516760837_46403645b0.jpg

Let's be honest here: those french bread pizzas are just so big and beautiful, and I'm happy just to have them around me. My heart goes to pitter-pat when I see the cheese sizzle; I sigh deeply when I see the light of the microwave shining on the luxurious crust!

Sure, I know they probably use way too many synthetic ingredients, and that we're just comparing prepackaged microwave pizzas that cook efficiently in modern microwaves under 2 minutes (unlike many still-sorta-tasty bagel bitez [and even many second-rate pizza items, I suppose] most Red Baron pizzas aren't cooked in a traditional oven), but I still say they're prolly the greatest ever...I mean, just look how impressive they are, at least compared to those burnt leftovers splattered around the microwave!

But that's neither here nor there; I don't see any other pizzas jumping in there with fabulous french bread, and that's not the Baron's fault. And I recently had a less-popular off-brand pizza that I actually thought tasted better than the bagel bites at the time; I assume that's because the bagel bites have a completely new recipe, and will never be the same. I'm definitely certain that it's not that the off-brand was, for whatever reason at that moment, better; it's just got to be that the bagel bits have gone straight down the tubes. I'm going to have to reassess what I used to think about 'em. :ThmbDown:

Besides, you're right: I just can't imagine there's room in ANYONE'S freezer for more than one favoritest pizza snack. And it's a proven scientific fact that Red Baron french bread pizzas are simply better...my computer program that tests Red Baron french bread pizzas told me so. It's my own system, and it's never wrong. There's no argument. Give it up, Team Bagelz!

Perhaps we should send some of the french bread superpizzas over to Italy to compete with the best of the best on their home turf? I digress, as I guess the shipping might make them stale. Besides, we want our pizzas to stay here on our side of the pond...we hate for some other character - some middle-easterner, for example - to get ahold of the recipe. :mad:

Whew...I'm glad we had this dialogue. High-fives, and I'll get your address to send a Cafe Press shirt imprinted with a giant image of our favoritest Baron snack and emblazoned with the classic "GO BIG B!" slogan.

YAAAAY TEAM B! :jump:

*Note: It's almost a lil' thrilling to see that all of this absurdity isn't going unnoticed. Legitimate high-fives, chxhead. :ThmbUp:

[Kimsus]

I am one who never claimed Rachel was the best horse who ever lived. The only thing I've said about Rachel is that she was one of the greatest 3yo fillies ever. She ran an amazing 3yo campaign.

I know her Beyers are on par with Zenyatta's for the most part (however, Rachel's highest is a 116 earned in the Haskell, which is better than anything Zenyatta has ever run).

But I also know Rachel is capable of gaining a huge pace advantage over Zenyatta when they finally meet. That's why I believe Rachel will beat Zenyatta when they hook up.

I was also counting on Rachel getting a little better as a 4yo. That still may or may not happen. If it does, I really can't see Rachel losing to Zenyatta over the dirt.

In a non match race at 1 1/8 and definitely at 1 1/4, Zenyatta would beat Rachel everytime if the track is playing fair. Jess knows this and that is why I doubt we will see them run against each other, I said yesterday the Moss's have taken the right approach this year and have moved on to bigger fish with perhaps the Stephen Foster in mind and topping it off with the Classic, if Rachel wants to face her she is more than welcome to join in to face the boys and Zenyatta, there is no point in having Zenyatta carry 130lbs to other distaffers she has beaten anymore. I'd rather her carry a sensible weight against the best males in training. One thing is clear to me, Rachel is a very good horse, she had a good year, but in my opinion one horse is one of the greatest in the game that has never had a question mark in her game, the other seems to be filled with question marks. Sure if Rachel runs her best she is a handful for any horse to handle, but if she is off of her A game just a little as she has shown in the Woodward and N.O ladies, she is very suspectible down the lane. Zenyatta just wins and eats up ground in the lane of every race she has been in, she is a freak that numbers players will never completely understand. Steve Crist wrote in his blog why she only got a 95 beyer, it is worth a read for those who continue to doubt her.

[Cratos]

In a non match race at 1 1/8 and definitely at 1 1/4, Zenyatta would beat Rachel everytime if the track is playing fair. Jess knows this and that is why I doubt we will see them run against each other, I said yesterday the Moss's have taken the right approach this year and have moved on to bigger fish with perhaps the Stephen Foster in mind and topping it off with the Classic, if Rachel wants to face her she is more than welcome to join in to face the boys and Zenyatta, there is no point in having Zenyatta carry 130lbs to other distaffers she has beaten anymore. I'd rather her carry a sensible weight against the best males in training. One thing is clear to me, Rachel is a very good horse, she had a good year, but in my opinion one horse is one of the greatest in the game that has never had a question mark in her game, the other seems to be filled with question marks. Sure if Rachel runs her best she is a handful for any horse to handle, but if she is off of her A game just a little as she has shown in the Woodward and N.O ladies, she is very suspectible down the lane. Zenyatta just wins and eats up ground in the lane of every race she has been in, she is a freak that numbers players will never completely understand. Steve Crist wrote in his blog why she only got a 95 beyer, it is worth a read for those who continue to doubt her.

A well written post that many should read

[FenceBored]

there is no point in having Zenyatta carry 130lbs to other distaffers she has beaten anymore. I'd rather her carry a sensible weight against the best males in training.

A sensible weight against males? I'm not so sure they want that. Against females in a handicap, Zenyatta should be at least 133 or 134lbs next out. She won under 129 in the Vanity last June. [I see the reduction to 127 for the Santa Margarita as due partly due to the layoff and partly gift to get her to run at SA.] Since being assigned that 129lbs she has had 6 straight G1 wins without a loss including the BC Classic against males. If that doesn't warrant adding 4 or 5 lbs to that 129, what would? With a 3lb distaff allowance that puts her weight for a Hollywood Gold Cup or Stephen Foster at 130-131 lbs. To me that would be the sensible weight against males.

[Kimsus]

A sensible weight against males? I'm not so sure they want that. Against females in a handicap, Zenyatta should be at least 133 or 134lbs next out. She won under 129 in the Vanity last June. [I see the reduction to 127 for the Santa Margarita as due partly due to the layoff and partly gift to get her to run at SA.] Since being assigned that 129lbs she has had 6 straight G1 wins without a loss including the BC Classic against males. If that doesn't warrant adding 4 or 5 lbs to that 129, what would? With a 3lb distaff allowance that puts her weight for a Hollywood Gold Cup or Stephen Foster at 130-131 lbs. To me that would be the sensible weight against males.

She will not be assigned 130-131 for the Stephen Foster, stop being silly...

[FenceBored]

She will not be assigned 130-131 for the Stephen Foster, stop being silly...

Why not? Curlin was assigned 128. Don't you think that Zenyatta is 2-3lbs better than Curlin?

[Kimsus]

Why not? Curlin was assigned 128. Don't you think that Zenyatta is 2-3lbs better than Curlin?

Exactly the question I was going to follow up to you sleepyhead, Curlin carried 128 as a male off the Dubai World Cup, it is a handicap you think Zenyatta is going to carry 130-131. What's your excuse today, too much rum?

[FenceBored]

Exactly the question I was going to follow up to you sleepyhead, Curlin carried 128 as a male off the Dubai World Cup, it is a handicap you think Zenyatta is going to carry 130-131. What's your excuse today, too much rum?

So you think Curlin is better than Zenyatta, then?

[Kimsus]

So you think Curlin is better than Zenyatta, then?

It doesn't matter what I think, as much as you want me to say Zenyatta. Get with the program, you stated Zenyatta was going to be assigned 130-131 as a female in an Open Handicap, I am telling you the track handicapper will not assign her that weight, what is there not to understand about this?

[FenceBored]

It doesn't matter what I think, as much as you want me to say Zenyatta. Get with the program, you stated Zenyatta was going to be assigned 130-131 as a female in an Open Handicap, I am telling you the track handicapper will not assign her that weight, what is there not to understand about this?

No, I didn't. I said that that was the weight which would be sensible to assign her. Moss/Shirreffs won't stand for it, therefore any track that wants her to run in their race won't assign it, but that doesn't change whether it's a sensible impost for her. The lighter weight she does get assigned will be the same kind of joke Curlin's 128 was.

[ghostyapper]

No, I didn't. I said that that was the weight which would be sensible to assign her. Moss/Shirreffs won't stand for it, therefore any track that wants her to run in their race won't assign it, but that doesn't change whether it's a sensible impost for her. The lighter weight she does get assigned will be the same kind of joke Curlin's 128 was.

How convenient. The bc classic win gets downgraded because all the other horses were at a "disadvantage" due to the surface, a surface that they claim is the main reason Z is undefeated.

Of course when assigning weight assignments for a dirt race all that rhetoric goes out the window :lol:

[FenceBored]

How convenient. The bc classic win gets downgraded because all the other horses were at a "disadvantage" due to the surface, a surface that they claim is the main reason Z is undefeated.

Of course when assigning weight assignments for a dirt race all that rhetoric goes out the window :lol:

Aren't you for challenging horses to see how good they really are?

[OntheRail]

Aren't you for challenging horses to see how good they really are?
Agree... but if the past is a reflection of the future... Moss is not interested in finding Zenyatta's limits. ;)

[Kimsus]

Agree... but if the past is a reflection of the future... Moss is not interested in finding Zenyatta's limits. ;)

I find these statements that the bored one or anyone else so inaccurate, they said they were going to run her in the Apple Blossom, they said they were going to ship, they said they were going to try her on dirt and they said they would welcome the challenge of a race with Rachel Alexandra or any other filly that wanted to run on Apr 9th. What does past reflection have anything to do with 2010, so far they have backed up everything they have outlined barring that Zenyatta is healthy. Moss can't control if the competition ducks out of the race. She was more than willing to take the chance this time.

[bisket]

Agree... but if the past is a reflection of the future... Moss is not interested in finding Zenyatta's limits. ;)
when has jackson announced where he was going to race rachel more than two weeks before a race? fact is they have been looking at probable starters and running rachel in any race that doesn't have a horse with class speed in it. the two best speed horses in the east were avoided last year. quality road and careless jewel!! he has done this repeatedly. i'd like to see rachel's connections announce where they are going to be a month ahead of time just once. :rolleyes: the fact is they haven't really been challenging rachel have they? yes they have been racing against males, but every race was likely to, and did, set up beautifully for rachel.

[born2ride]

when has jackson announced where he was going to race rachel more than two weeks before a race? fact is they have been looking at probable starters and running rachel in any race that doesn't have a horse with class speed in it. the two best speed horses in the east were avoided last year. quality road and careless jewel!! he has done this repeatedly. i'd like to see rachel's connections announce where they are going to be a month ahead of time just once. :rolleyes: the fact is they haven't really been challenging rachel have they? yes they have been racing against males, but every race was likely to, and did, set up beautifully for rachel.

Before you cast your stones at the Rachel camp, it would've been wise for you to remind yourself that the decision for Zenyatta to run in the Classic was not made more than your obligatory requirement of two weeks before the race. In fact, it was made at the last minute. Also, your argument about Rachel avoiding races with speed horses applies as easily, if not moreso, to Zenyatta. You want Jackson to announce a month in advance of where Rachel is running just once? Go read when it was announced she'd be running in the NO Ladies. That meets your requirements of announcing a month in advance. Same with last year, his announcement of her running in the Mother Goose falls short, that was only three weeks - though it does meet your initial requirement of two weeks. Rachel running in the Haskell was announced a little over three weeks before the race, which also meets your initial requirement of two weeks.

Rachel hasn't been challenged? Shall we revisit who Zenyatta beat in the Vanity last year? BTW...how many horses did Zenyatta beat last year that have gone on to (a) run in another stakes race after being beat by Zenyatta, and (b) W/P/S the stakes race? While you're doing that little exercise to see whose competition is most flattering, do the same for Rachel. Or I can save you some time and just tell you that you only need one hand to count how Zenyatta's competition fared but you'll need two for Rachel's.

[ghostyapper]

Rachel hasn't been challenged? Shall we revisit who Zenyatta beat in the Vanity last year? BTW...how many horses did Zenyatta beat last year that have gone on to (a) run in another stakes race after being beat by Zenyatta, and (b) W/P/S the stakes race? While you're doing that little exercise to see whose competition is most flattering, do the same for Rachel. Or I can save you some time and just tell you that you only need one hand to count how Zenyatta's competition fared but you'll need two for Rachel's.

All this doesn't matter because even when something does not flatter rachel, her fans still find a way to make it flatter her. Ex: Rachel's final victory last year came against Macho Again and Bullsbay. Neither horse hit the board in their next 2 starts. The rachel fan response? They got worn out from chasing rachel :lol:

Can't make this stuff up.

[OntheRail]

All this doesn't matter because even when something does not flatter rachel, her fans still find a way to make it flatter her. Ex: Rachel's final victory last year came against Macho Again and Bullsbay. Neither horse hit the board in their next 2 starts. The rachel fan response? They got worn out from chasing rachel :lol:

Can't make this stuff up.
And how does Gio Ponti's finish up the track next out reflect on Zenyatta then?
I guess he was really nothing then as well. :lol:

[OntheRail]

I find these statements that the bored one or anyone else so inaccurate, they said they were going to run her in the Apple Blossom, they said they were going to ship, they said they were going to try her on dirt and they said they would welcome the challenge of a race with Rachel Alexandra or any other filly that wanted to run on Apr 9th. What does past reflection have anything to do with 2010, so far they have backed up everything they have outlined barring that Zenyatta is healthy. Moss can't control if the competition ducks out of the race. She was more than willing to take the chance this time.

Sure Moss runs her again early Spring when the good dirt horses are not in peak shape. So Moss did have some control over who entered based on timing. Had it been early May when she rolled out onto dirt it of been a whole another shape to the race.

Let wait and see what's next for Zenyatta... but I'll bet it's not G1 Males on Dirt. ;)

[Cadillakin]

And how does Gio Ponti's finish up the track next out reflect on Zenyatta then?

Not so..

Gio Ponti was beaten a nose by the top-class Karelian in a completely paceless race in his comeback at Tampa Bay on Feb 20. Karelian subsequently validated that form by coming back 6 weeks later and besting the top-notcher Court Vision in the Grade 1 Makers Mark...

[Buckeye]

I read that quote "pointing to BC Classic", which is 1 1/4 miles, classic distance. Nothing wrong winning that race and proving you are best of them all, dirt or wax, correct?

No, there is a difference between wax and dirt. Zenyatta has not proven yet she is the best ever-- at least admit that much. But she is certainly going in that direction. :)

Number one, she cannot lose to anybody. No excuses. Number 2, she must meet Rachel and kick her ass. (A tall order thankfully) and Number 3, she must do both these things with "something left" to answer the doubts from those who prefer others as best who cannot respond.

Basically just keep beating everybody available. Then we can talk.

Beat Rachel and win another Breeders' Cup race and suddenly Zenyatta is the best of all time? Problem is, even in doing so, does that mean she's better than horses she did not beat? No.

The Best Horse of all time is? I say Eclipse, he was born in 1764.

See what I mean? I vote for Ruffian but you may disagree and vote for Secretariat Citation or whoever. We'll never know.

[Fager Fan]

Not so..

Gio Ponti was beaten a nose by the top-class Karelian in a completely paceless race in his comeback at Tampa Bay on Feb 20. Karelian subsequently validated that form by coming back 6 weeks later and besting the top-notcher Court Vision in the Grade 1 Makers Mark...

I believe they're referring to his finish in the DWC, also run on synth.

[ghostyapper]

Aren't you for challenging horses to see how good they really are?

I usually expect a tougher fight from you but here you really just mailed it in with that response. Again we've heard that zenyatta's accomplished NOTHING on dirt. So why is it then you think she should be the high weight against males?

[ghostyapper]

Sure Moss runs her again early Spring when the good dirt horses are not in peak shape. So Moss did have some control over who entered based on timing. Had it been early May when she rolled out onto dirt it of been a whole another shape to the race.


Damned if you do damned if you don't. Zenyatta didn't start her campaign until June last year and we didn't hear the end of it from the gallery.

Now they start the year early but all the other horses are not in "peak shape" yet. :bang:

[born2ride]

All this doesn't matter because even when something does not flatter rachel, her fans still find a way to make it flatter her. Ex: Rachel's final victory last year came against Macho Again and Bullsbay. Neither horse hit the board in their next 2 starts. The rachel fan response? They got worn out from chasing rachel :lol:

Can't make this stuff up.

Yeah, nothing like swatting away facts that don't flatter your horse and calling it nonsense. :bang: :bang:

[FenceBored]

I usually expect a tougher fight from you but here you really just mailed it in with that response. Again we've heard that zenyatta's accomplished NOTHING on dirt. So why is it then you think she should be the high weight against males?

Is the Hollywood Gold Cup on dirt? :confused:

I'm merely suggesting we follow the time honored traditions of the sport in assigning her weight. Her assignment should be the same for the HGC, or Foster, or any main track handicap against males to discourage 'weight shopping.'

[OntheRail]

Is the Hollywood Gold Cup on dirt? :confused:

I'm merely suggesting we follow the time honored traditions of the sport in assigning her weight. Her assignment should be the same for the HGC, or Foster, or any main track handicap against males to discourage 'weight shopping.'
Well they are already do the wieght whine...
Shirreffs expressed concern about the Hollywood Park races, worried that Zenyatta would be burdened with a high weight in those handicaps. She carried a career-high assignment of 129 pounds in the 2009 Vanity Handicap.

"What kind of weight will she carry?" he said. "It would be tough to do that." So as to put Racing Secretaries on notice... You try and make it a fair HC and we'll not run. Lets not test the "Best Horse Of The Millennium" and push her to run in second gear or third whatever they say she's not had to reach down and grab. :rolleyes:

[OntheRail]

Went to add this to my reply but the edit button is gone...

Horse were "honored" with top weight, ... Owner and trainers usually saw the weight assignments as challenges for their charges. Now they are something to RUN FROM.

:ThmbUp: Good read... interactive as well.


http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/newsimages/Weights102209.pdf

[PaceAdvantage]

In a non match race at 1 1/8 and definitely at 1 1/4, Zenyatta would beat Rachel everytime if the track is playing fair.Cratos, how could this be a well written reply if it starts out with such unbelievable nonsense?

[PaceAdvantage]

fact is they have been looking at probable starters and running rachel in any race that doesn't have a horse with class speed in it.You like to play fast and loose with the word "fact." Get back to me when you can back up your SA speed bias claim in that other thread, with some actual FACTS. Then we can revisit this fantasy.

[Cratos]

Cratos, how could this be a well written reply if it starts out with such unbelievable nonsense?

PA, I am not a poster who typically criticizes or attempt to demean anyone’s post submission, but I will admit that when I initially read the post I read through it quickly for substance.

However with your “keen eye” I have been made aware that the introductory sentence to the post makes the post both incoherent and unintelligible for any logical or rational meaning.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA, I am not a poster who typically criticizes or attempt to demean anyone’s post submission, but I will admit that when I initially read the post I read through it quickly for substance.

However with your “keen eye” I have been made aware that the introductory sentence to the post makes the post both incoherent and unintelligible for any logical or rational meaning.Now you're just screwin' with me... :lol:

[Sericm]

Does she go to Churchill to face Careless Jewel and possibly Zardana and Rachel Alexandra or does she go for a local race like the Milady to secure the elusive 17th straight win?

It may depend on Rachel Alexandra's connections, as they aren't committed to the La Troienne anyways.

SERICM
Why should Zenyatta chase Rachel Alexander? If Jackson want's a race against Zenyatta let him go where Zenyatta's racing. I doubt they will ever meet since Jacksons camp knows Zenyatta will beat Rachel hands down. They've already ducked her twice. :bang:

[OntheRail]

SERICM
Why should Zenyatta chase Rachel Alexander? If Jackson want's a race against Zenyatta let him go where Zenyatta's racing. I doubt they will ever meet since Jacksons camp knows Zenyatta will beat Rachel hands down. They've already ducked her twice. :bang:

Saying your highly run horse is not going to run a race a month plus before the race on a surface you despise is not "DUCKING" BC

Trying to rush to make a date that was not on your card to begin with and not being ready in not "DUCKING" AB

So your thinking is Moss hides Zenyatta out in plasticland and all the dirt horses should go West to face her. Well since we have a energy shortage right now... would it not be more GREEN... a left coast chant for one horse to come East and run on dirt then 15-30 flying West to run on plastic. :rolleyes:

But as I see it she needs to come East run on dirt against G1 open and not just in Nov. ;)

[ghostyapper]

Saying your highly run horse is not going to run a race a month plus before the race on a surface you despise is not "DUCKING" BC

Trying to rush to make a date that was not on your card to begin with and not being ready in not "DUCKING" AB


One thing I do love about the rachel crowd is how quick they are to adopt an excuse. Last year before the woodward there was little talk about her being tired or that it would be her last race. Then when jackson announced it, her fans rushed to say how tired she was and there was no point to race again for the rest of the year.

We were told rachel was retired in early september last year so she could come back and have a full season as a 4yo. Her fan base was even circling the donn as a possibility. Now after a loss and a duck, she was "rushed to get back" for a race in april that was "never on the card to being with"

[OntheRail]

One thing I do love about the rachel crowd is how quick they are to adopt an excuse. Last year before the woodward there was little talk about her being tired or that it would be her last race. Then when jackson announced it, her fans rushed to say how tired she was and there was no point to race again for the rest of the year.

We were told rachel was retired in early september last year so she could come back and have a full season as a 4yo. Her fan base was even circling the donn as a possibility. Now after a loss and a duck, she was "rushed to get back" for a race in april that was "never on the card to being with"

Ok... So lost time on the track due to bad weather had nothing to do with not making the AB... which was not in the plans for Rachel to begin with. I do not recall JJ or SA pointing to the race before Cella pushed for it. Now if you can find a DRF... BH article about it saying otherwise... either the AB or the Donn post it up. Cause last time I checked the FAN BASE has no say in when and where Rachel runs. Only Jackson has that power. :lol:

And Zenyatta was RETIRED... (but kept in training) last year in hope of winning HOTY for her entire career... instead of the few races in 09. How many times did I read Give it to ZEN she'll never have another chance at it. RA has next year.

Keep quaken on... :lol:

[Grits]

One thing I do love about the rachel crowd is how quick they are to adopt an excuse. Last year before the woodward there was little talk about her being tired or that it would be her last race. Then when jackson announced it, her fans rushed to say how tired she was and there was no point to race again for the rest of the year.

We were told rachel was retired in early september last year so she could come back and have a full season as a 4yo. Her fan base was even circling the donn as a possibility. Now after a loss and a duck, she was "rushed to get back" for a race in april that was "never on the card to being with"

Ghostyapper, you're the most redundant poster on this entire board.

For God's sake, PLEASE offer something new instead of the same post, over and over and over. You're like a freaking broken record. This one post is all you ever show up with. You afraid no one gets it maybe?

"Let's see now, let me think. How can I change it up a little, reword it for the gazillionth time?":faint:

[Pick6]

Ok... So lost time on the track due to bad weather had nothing to do with not making the AB... which was not in the plans for Rachel to begin with. I do not recall JJ or SA pointing to the race before Cella pushed for it. Now if you can find a DRF... BH article about it saying otherwise... either the AB or the Donn post it up. Cause last time I checked the FAN BASE has no say in when and where Rachel runs. Only Jackson has that power. :lol:

And Zenyatta was RETIRED... (but kept in training) last year in hope of winning HOTY for her entire career... instead of the few races in 09. How many times did I read Give it to ZEN she'll never have another chance at it. RA has next year.

Keep quaken on... :lol:
Odds on Rachel Alexandra entering 2010 BC Classic?
Odds on Rachel Alexandra winning 2010 BC Classic?

Compare that to Zenyatta. I think that should tell you who the better horse is.

[tzipi]

Odds on RA entering 2010 BC Classic?
Odds on RA winning 2010 BC Classic?

Compare that to Zenyatta. I think that should tell you who the better horse is.

It is just mid April, the beginning of the racing season and RA has had just one prep race off a big layoff. I'll wait to August or early Sept before I say who going to make it or who could win it. But that said, I do hope both make it. :)

Also I can't make odds yet because RA nor Zen has run against anyone who will even be in the BC Classic.

[Pick6]

One can make odds on anything. it's up to the bettor to determine the edge, if any.

[tzipi]

One can make odds on anything. it's up to the bettor to determine the edge, if any.

Well I guess yes anyone can make odds on anything. I agree . I just wouldn't touch them or make them because there odds on horses to make the top dirt race 6 months from now and Zen and RA haven't even gotten started yet against the top horses this season. That's 6 whole months of racing to go. Who knows what's going to happen over the whole year. But if someone wants to make up odds to show something in April, well enjoy. :)

[ghostyapper]

Ghostyapper, you're the most redundant poster on this entire board.

For God's sake, PLEASE offer something new instead of the same post, over and over and over. You're like a freaking broken record. This one post is all you ever show up with. You afraid no one gets it maybe?

"Let's see now, let me think. How can I change it up a little, reword it for the gazillionth time?":faint:

If people keep making the SAME old arguments, I'll keep responding to them accordingly.

feel free to put me on ignore so I don't waste your valuable time with redundancy.

[ghostyapper]

And Zenyatta was RETIRED... (but kept in training) last year in hope of winning HOTY for her entire career... instead of the few races in 09. How many times did I read Give it to ZEN she'll never have another chance at it. RA has next year.


What does this have to do with anything? Keep making up excuses on the fly for why she doesn't show up. I look forward to them all season long.

[Pick6]

Well I guess yes anyone can make odds on anything. I agree . I just wouldn't touch them or make them because there odds on horses to make the top dirt race 6 months from now and Zen and RA haven't even gotten started yet against the top horses this season. That's 6 whole months of racing to go. Who knows what's going to happen over the whole year. But if someone wants to make up odds to show something in April, well enjoy. :)
Obviously if I said RA was 10,000-1 to win the BC Classic you would take that bet.

If I said Z was 1-20 to win the BC Classic you would lay that bet.

Somewhere in between are fair odds that best represent each horses' chances. And I think it's fair to say that RA's chances of winning are significantly lower than Z.

[Sericm]

It really ceases to amaze me how so many of you so called racing experts just refuse to see the brillance of Zenyatta. What a bunch of whiners.
"She's just run on synthetics"
"She hasn't beat anybody."
"Her dirt races are nothing"

No. 1: She's won 16 times against anybody that showed up.
No. 2: She's won twice on dirt barely warming up.
No. 3: I suppose Ginger Punch was a plodder.
No. 4: She's won a Breeders cup Lady Classic.
No. 5: She's won a Breeders Cup Classic against a caliber of horse that Rachel Alexander has never met. Or do you forget that Colonel John won a Travers.

Appreciate the brillance!!!!!

Sericm:bang:

[tzipi]

It really ceases to amaze me how so many of you so called racing experts just refuse to see the brillance of Zenyatta. What a bunch of whiners.
"She's just run on synthetics"
"She hasn't beat anybody."
"Her dirt races are nothing"

No. 1: She's won 16 times against anybody that showed up.
No. 2: She's won twice on dirt barely warming up.
No. 3: I suppose Ginger Punch was a plodder.
No. 4: She's won a Breeders cup Lady Classic.
No. 5: She's won a Breeders Cup Classic against a caliber of horse that Rachel Alexander has never met. Or do you forget that Colonel John won a Travers.

Appreciate the brillance!!!!!

Sericm:bang:

Well I'm not against Zen and I don't think most people are arguing that Zen is a talent. I think it might be the "best ever" debate now people are talking about. She is not close to best ever. But that's not to say Zen is not on the top horses of all time. She surely is. :ThmbUp:

But to look at your list I would say No.1 says, "against anybody who showed up". The majority of her races last year were against the same field of girls in California. She DID whip them everytime like she was suppose to but it wasn't much of changing fields of competition. Also Colonel John??? I was surprised people were talking about that horse as top competition against Zen last BC. That was the horse she had to beat according to people?
Let me ask, when was Colonel John's last dirt win before the BC?

[ghostyapper]

Let me ask, when was Colonel John's last dirt win before the BC?

In his last dirt race.

[letswastemoney]

The tracks in both the Ladies Classic and BC Classic that Zenyatta won were biased and unfair to dirt horses.

It's possible she will win the dirt Classic this year and quiet the last piece of doubt. In fact, it's very possible.

But a given? A cold fact that Zenyatta can beat any quality dirt specialist??? (the bums she faced in the Apple Blossom last week do not qualify for this argument)

I find Quality Road and Rachel much better better horses than Ginger Punch and she needs to beat that type of quality without her biased Pro Ride track with her.

I do not understand the Zenyatta fan notion that she's invincible anywhere at anytime, when 14 out of her 16 wins were on synthetic.

[OntheRail]

What does this have to do with anything? Keep making up excuses on the fly for why she doesn't show up. I look forward to them all season long.
Go re-read your post #211... where in you said Rachel was retire... I was just pointing out that Zenyatta was the one that was "RETIED" had two send off and a race named after her... and the reason behind it. Even though she never went out of training nor left the backside. Still no excuses being made for Rachel.. just stating the obvious facts that you seem to ignore.

But still looking forward to you providing those links to the Donn and Apple Blossom pre Cella. ;)

[OntheRail]

Odds on Rachel Alexandra entering 2010 BC Classic?
Odds on Rachel Alexandra winning 2010 BC Classic?

Compare that to Zenyatta. I think that should tell you who the better horse is.
At this point I'd say odds for both Zenyatta and Rachel are about 50/50 to those question... as it's so early in the season. :faint:

I mean if you can see that far into the future. Why not peer into the weekend and give me the Power Ball numbers or just a couple of weeks and tell us the Derby Tri and Supper. and the Pick 6 for May 1st. :lol:

[ghostyapper]

Go re-read your post #211... where in you said Rachel was retire... I was just pointing out that Zenyatta was the one that was "RETIED" had two send off and a race named after her... and the reason behind it. Even though she never went out of training nor left the backside. Still no excuses being made for Rachel.. just stating the obvious facts that you seem to ignore.

But still looking forward to you providing those links to the Donn and Apple Blossom pre Cella. ;)

Wait a minute, you're telling me zenyatta never went out of training from 09 to 10? I thought it was law that horses needed 4 month breaks when they were in training for such long periods of time?

[FenceBored]

Wait a minute, you're telling me zenyatta never went out of training from 09 to 10? I thought it was law that horses needed 4 month breaks when they were in training for such long periods of time?

Only Ghostzapper. With others it's optional.

[Greyfox]

Wait a minute, you're telling me zenyatta never went out of training from 09 to 10? I thought it was law that horses needed 4 month breaks when they were in training for such long periods of time?

That's a new one on me. What law?? (I doubt it.)

[Pick6]

At this point I'd say odds for both Zenyatta and Rachel are about 50/50 to those question... as it's so early in the season. :faint:

I mean if you can see that far into the future. Why not peer into the weekend and give me the Power Ball numbers or just a couple of weeks and tell us the Derby Tri and Supper. and the Pick 6 for May 1st. :lol:
So your hypothetical futures book for RA is +100 to run in the BC Classic? Of course you get some juice in the transaction, so how about -110?

Wow, if I could get some action laying that prop I think I could plan on my retirement.

[OntheRail]

So your hypothetical futures book for RA is +100 to run in the BC Classic? Of course you get some juice in the transaction, so how about -110?

Wow, if I could get some action laying that prop I think I could plan on my retirement.


Wow how the heck do you draw that conclusion... from what I posted. :rolleyes:

[OntheRail]

Wait a minute, you're telling me zenyatta never went out of training from 09 to 10? I thought it was law that horses needed 4 month breaks when they were in training for such long periods of time?

What do you think they are Truck Drivers.... 12 on 10 off. :D

Unlike your wild assertions I'll back up my facts with a link.


A day after owners Jerry and Ann Moss announced that the undefeated champion Zenyatta would return for her 6-year-old season in 2010, the strapping mare worked five furlongs in 1:01 2/5 for trainer John Shirreffs at Hollywood Park on Jan. 17.

Better tell Shirreffs that he's being unlawful.. :lol:


http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/54862/zenyatta-back-to-work-at-hollywood-park


Shirreffs told DRF that no decision has been made on Zenyatta's schedule, but indicated that they would like to return to Oaklawn Park for the Apple Blossom Handicap (gr. I) in Hot Springs, Ark., on April 3.

So you see Zenyatta was pointed toward the AB in Jan. Rachel was being lured much later by Cella.

Still waiting for those links about the Donn and AB from Jackon. :rolleyes:

[tzipi]

In his last dirt race.

Yup, very funny but that answer shows me something ;). So again, how long ago was that win before the BC Classic last year? It was all i was asking because someone mentioned Colonel John as top competition in that race. I think that rips Zenny a bit if he's the one being talked about as her competition. I think it was well over a year before the BC that he won a dirt race.

[FenceBored]

Yup, very funny but that answer shows me something ;). So again, how long ago was that win before the BC Classic last year? It was all i was asking because someone mentioned Colonel John as top competition in that race. I think that rips Zenny a bit if he's the one being talked about as her competition. I think it was well over a year before the BC that he won a dirt race.

You are being quite unfair! It was only 1 year, 2 months and 15 days between Colonel John's Travers win and the 2009 Breeders Cup. So what if his only victory in that period was a restricted turf stake.

[ghostyapper]

Yup, very funny but that answer shows me something ;). So again, how long ago was that win before the BC Classic last year? It was all i was asking because someone mentioned Colonel John as top competition in that race. I think that rips Zenny a bit if he's the one being talked about as her competition. I think it was well over a year before the BC that he won a dirt race.

I really don't get your whole argument. The race was on synthetic but you are asking when his last dirt win was? Colonel John was a horse with G1 wins on synthetic and dirt. He also lost a G1 prep heading into the bc by a neck. Now I know that resume pales in comparison to the great macho again or munnings but he certainly was one of the contenders.

And please save the patented breakdown of each bc runner to try and show how weak the field was. The fact is it was the best field of the year. I know it pains the rachel fans to hear that because they can't offer any resistance to it. Or shall we breakdown that woodward field?

[ghostyapper]

So you see Zenyatta was pointed toward the AB in Jan. Rachel was being lured much later by Cella.

Still waiting for those links about the Donn and AB from Jackon. :rolleyes:

What you don't seem to be grasping is it's the rachel FANS that had these lofty expectations and now that she has not met them they are just adopting any excuse they can find. Jackson has been pretty consistent with his open ended response of "She'll tell us when she's ready." Of course she conveniently is never ready when a difficult race is coming up.

I ask again WHY she was not pointing towards the apple blossom or any other big race this month or earlier? She was the one that retired early last year so she could come back and have a full season as a 4yo.

First we heard the lame excuse when she ducked the jcgc that she was tired and needed a freshener. Now she ducked the Apple Blossom because she's not in form after the freshener. Convenient

[FenceBored]

I really don't get your whole argument. The race was on synthetic but you are asking when his last dirt win was? Colonel John was a horse with G1 wins on synthetic and dirt. He also lost a G1 prep heading into the bc by a neck. Now I know that resume pales in comparison to the great macho again or munnings but he certainly was one of the contenders.

And please save the patented breakdown of each bc runner to try and show how weak the field was. The fact is it was the best field of the year. I know it pains the rachel fans to hear that because they can't offer any resistance to it. Or shall we breakdown that woodward field?

How many graded stakes have those BC Classic "World Beaters" won since November 7th (excluding Zenyatta, whose races we all know)? Must be a lot, huh?

[Pick6]

Wow how the heck do you draw that conclusion... from what I posted. :rolleyes:
You said RA was 50% to run in BC Classic. Or are you saying it is something different than 50%?

[ghostyapper]

How many graded stakes have those BC Classic "World Beaters" won since November 7th (excluding Zenyatta, whose races we all know)? Must be a lot, huh?

Please don't waste everyone's time again. When you are ready to name a better field last year, come and play. Quick to take shots at the bc field but when it comes time to name better you become a turtle. We've all seen this act by you before.

By the way I heard bullsbay and macho again finishing off the board in their next 2 were a result of RA wearing them down in that star studded woodward field. :lol:

[born2ride]

What you don't seem to be grasping is it's the rachel FANS that had these lofty expectations and now that she has not met them they are just adopting any excuse they can find. Jackson has been pretty consistent with his open ended response of "She'll tell us when she's ready." Of course she conveniently is never ready when a difficult race is coming up.

I ask again WHY she was not pointing towards the apple blossom or any other big race this month or earlier? She was the one that retired early last year so she could come back and have a full season as a 4yo.

First we heard the lame excuse when she ducked the jcgc that she was tired and needed a freshener. Now she ducked the Apple Blossom because she's not in form after the freshener. Convenient

Gee, as a I recall Shirreffs didn't run Zenyatta in the Pacific Classic because she wasn't ready. Is that the kind of excuse you're talking about for a horse ducking a difficult race?

[born2ride]

Please don't waste everyone's time again. When you are ready to name a better field last year, come and play. Quick to take shots at the bc field but when it comes time to name better you become a turtle. We've all seen this act by you before.

By the way I heard bullsbay and macho again finishing off the board in their next 2 were a result of RA wearing them down in that star studded woodward field. :lol:

At least they're good enough to compete this year, which can't really be said of the males Zenyatta faced that Rachel didn't. :D

[ghostyapper]

At least they're good enough to compete this year, which can't really be said of the males Zenyatta faced that Rachel didn't. :D

O really? How many wins (check that, how many starts) for either of those 2 this year?

[FenceBored]

Please don't waste everyone's time again. When you are ready to name a better field last year, come and play. Quick to take shots at the bc field but when it comes time to name better you become a turtle. We've all seen this act by you before.

By the way I heard bullsbay and macho again finishing off the board in their next 2 were a result of RA wearing them down in that star studded woodward field. :lol:

Can't find any graded wins from the males in the Classic this year, huh? Victories at all?

[OntheRail]

What you don't seem to be grasping is it's the rachel FANS that had these lofty expectations and now that she has not met them they are just adopting any excuse they can find. Jackson has been pretty consistent with his open ended response of "She'll tell us when she's ready." Of course she conveniently is never ready when a difficult race is coming up.

No I think your projecting your own expectations and assumption onto others. Yes I think any horse can tell it's owner what's going on with it if they only listen. Or would you prefer trainers/owner that just squeeze a horse till they are a shell of what they once were? Till you pony up hard cash on a horse your words ring hollow.... on how it should be managed.

Me I'll take the word of the people who did. ;)


I ask again WHY she was not pointing towards the apple blossom or any other big race this month or earlier? She was the one that retired early last year so she could come back and have a full season as a 4yo.

A little thing that no man has control over.... weather conditions.


First we heard the lame excuse when she ducked the jcgc that she was tired and needed a freshener. Now she ducked the Apple Blossom because she's not in form after the freshener. Convenient.


You http://images.paraorkut.com/img/emoticons/images/q/quacking_duck-117.gifme up with your duck... duck... ducking.

Howmany races did Zenyatta duck under your use of the term. The 09 Pacific Classic... Hollywood Gold Cup... Steven Foster.. Dubi... Arc and a 100 other races.. Now I realize she was not pointed toward them... but she did http://images.paraorkut.com/img/emoticons/images/d/duck-81.gif away from them. :lol:

[WinterTriangle]

RA has next year.



Well, unless she runs before the KY Derby, we'll already be into the 5th month of the year.

Let's get this party started. :)

[OntheRail]

You said RA was 50% to run in BC Classic. Or are you saying it is something different than 50%?

Yep at this time Rachel and Zenyatta... 50/50 to run... Not +100 as you extrapolated from my post. ;)

[OntheRail]

Well, unless she runs before the KY Derby, we'll already be into the 5th month of the year.

Let's get this party started. :)

I know... I... know.

But we're waiting on a wine maker. They have the patience to wait for things to develop. Else we'd only have grape juice with dinner. :faint:

[WinterTriangle]

I know... I... know.

But we're waiting on a wine maker. They have the patience to wait for things to develop. Else we'd only have grape juice with dinner. :faint:

A nice analogy and I agree. Good things come to those who ........

...........believe patience is one of the greatest virtues. (the older you get the more you realize it. LOL)

..........know, appreciate and drink good wine. :)

[born2ride]

O really? How many wins (check that, how many starts) for either of those 2 this year?
More than all the females that lost to Zen in last year's Vanity. Oh wait... I forgot.... the horse has to be entered for it to be considered a start. :lol:

You want to restrict the point to just these two males. The point is that there are more horses that faced Rachel last year that are still doing well in stakes races than those that faced Zenyatta. That fact speaks volumes. This is why I'd like to see Zenyatta running in some races where the competition is stiffer than what she's traditionally faced. Or run her in back to back races with less than 4 weeks rest. Or back to back races against males. Her last two races were virtually paid workouts, so why wait two months until her next race?

[ghostyapper]

You want to restrict the point to just these two males. The point is that there are more horses that faced Rachel last year that are still doing well in stakes races than those that faced Zenyatta. That fact speaks volumes. This is why I'd like to see Zenyatta running in some races where the competition is stiffer than what she's traditionally faced. Or run her in back to back races with less than 4 weeks rest. Or back to back races against males. Her last two races were virtually paid workouts, so why wait two months until her next race?

Who are all these stars rachel beat last year that are still doing well? Has she ever beaten a filly/mare that is better than Life is Sweet, who Z beat 3 TIMES???

What has any woodward horse done since then, other then get smoked at the jcgc (proving the travers was tougher)? The groupies like to use Gio Ponti's 4th place finish in dubai as a knock on Z. The truth is none of the woodward field is even good enough to run in that caliber of race.

I'm waiting to hear of all the accomplishments of the horses rachel beat last year.