Zenyatta, Stops for Coffee and Breakfast, Still Wins the Race

[Igeteven]

Zenyatta, stops at her local coffee shop, has breakfast of bacon, eggs, fired potato's , toast and coffee, and still wins


Super Horse, that's it, Should have been Horse of the Year

[Tom]

I love watching her run. :ThmbUp:
Maybe next time the other camp will be ready.:rolleyes:

[Charlie D]

I love watching her run. :ThmbUp:
Maybe next time the other camp will be ready.:rolleyes:


Can't beat watching Top Class horses perform Tom in my humble opinion and yep, lets hope Rache will be ready and Quality Road too.

[Watcher]

Can't beat watching Top Class horses perform Tom in my humble opinion and yep, lets hope Rache will be ready and Quality Road too.

And maybe I Want Revenge?

[BluegrassProf]

A walk in the park, no doubt. ;)

Should have been Horse of the YearRidiculous, as it has been, and will continue to be. Move on move on move on.

We can celebrate this race - and any races to come - just fine without making ourselves look like an ass. :)

Take a cue from Sheriffs et al and focus on this year. I guarantee it'll be a positive shift, and improve results. :ThmbUp:

[Charlie D]

And maybe I Want Revenge?


Yep, lets see him ready too

[OntheRail]

Should have been Horse of the Year :rolleyes:

Congrates to Zenyatta on another easy win... heres hoping for better in May and June. ;)

[Marshall Bennett]

Was a dumb race , means nothing , what a joke . We get worked up over this ?

[tzipi]

It was a paid workout against those kind of horses but Zen did what she had to do. She's surely in top shape. I'm looking forward to the summer coming up and the top horses getting back into swing. Going to be great :)

[Greyfox]

Amazingly the exacta paid $ 18 and change.
The tri $ 48 and change.

If I had a cheap nag I would have put it in the race. Even a fifth place finish would have been worth some hay. Unbelievable that there were so few takers.

[maiom01]

Was a dumb race , means nothing , what a joke . We get worked up over this ?

For a horse to win 16 straight is a big deal..Especially one that gives the field 8-10 lengths each and every race. Some on this board were saying. It's on the dirt. She might not run..YA, YA, YA..:sleeping:...

[horses4courses]

I'm a fan of Z's......what a sight watching her cruise down the stretch!!!

Rachel earned top honors last year....Zenyatta can do the same this year.

I believe, under normal circumstances on dirt, Z will beat RA at 9, or 10, furlongs.
A match race would be very tough, but I still think Z wins.

She's just awesome!!!

[tzipi]

For a horse to win 16 straight is a big deal..Especially one that gives the field 8-10 lengths each and every race. Some on this board were saying. It's on the dirt. She might not run..YA, YA, YA..:sleeping:...

I don't think dirt was a question here. The most any of these horses won was a one G3 race. This was a paid workout for Zenny. She would've had to lose all four shoes and slip her saddle to lose this race :) . On to bigger and better with Summer coming up.

[born2ride]

Was a dumb race , means nothing , what a joke . We get worked up over this ?
Apparently some do. :D

[maiom01]

If Zenyatta would of lost today on the dirt..You know all the Zenyatta bashers would of been out in groves. Saying see, she can only run on the sythetics..When she wins, they come up with excuses why it was so easy..When she loses. Wait, she hasn't lost yet..LMAO!!!!

[tzipi]

If Zenyatta would of lost today on the dirt..You know all the Zenyatta bashers would of been out in groves. Saying see, she can only run on the sythetics..When she wins, they come up with excuses why it was so easy..When she loses. Wait, she hasn't lost yet..LMAO!!!!

Maiom01. Eaassyyyy. Handicappers know she wouldn't lose today, unless she lost all her shoes and her saddle :D . Did you see any threads of she will lose today? She was against barely G3 winners. It was a paid workout. Not a real race. On to bigger and better now and the great racing of summer.

[BluegrassProf]

When she wins, they come up with excuses why it was so easy..When she loses. Wait, she hasn't lost yet..LMAO!!!!So, just to clarify: this race wasn't so easy? Her competition was exceptional? It was a test of her greatness?

This race is a significant contribution to her legacy? Would you say the same for any other horse?

Come on. Doesn't matter who you're cheering for...that's silly.

This certainly isn't "bashing," and it's not excusing anything; it's looking at what's smack-dab right in front your own two crossed eyes. Does it take away from the Zenyatta's resume? Of course not. And absolutely, a win's a win, no doubt; yay for 16!! Be incredibly happy for the athlete, for her connections, and perhaps do what I'm doing: think of the AB-workout (yes, that's what it was...reference PA's comparison of competition, with which I agree) as a stepping stone to the beginning of an exciting season. If you've got any sense, like we hope from all thoroughbred connections, you'll be dreaming considerably bigger than this (particularly if last year proved disappointing).

But please, don't try to make it something it's not. Makes you look like one of those crazy-hat fans from HRTV videos who knows more about scrapbooking than horseracing. :bang:

I'm with tzipi here: bring on bigger - and much better - racing! So much more to come...maybe we'll have a chance to get REALLY excited. :cool:

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Zenyatta vs Quality Road is the race to wait for

[letswastemoney]

Would anyone be excited and thrilled if it was Quality Road demolishing this field?

[tzipi]

Zenyatta vs Quality Road is the race to wait for

Zenyatta, yes, but the race better be at GP for Quality Road :) The race to wait for is Zenny vs RA.

[maiom01]

So, just to clarify: this race wasn't so easy? Her competition was exceptional? It was a test of her greatness?

This race is a significant contribution to her legacy? Would you say the same for any other horse?

Come on. Doesn't matter who you're cheering for...that's silly.

This certainly isn't "bashing," and it's not excusing anything; it's looking at what's smack-dab right in front your own two crossed eyes. Does it take away from the Zenyatta's resume? Of course not. And absolutely, a win's a win, no doubt; yay for 16!! Be incredibly happy for the athlete, for her connections, and perhaps do what I'm doing: think of the AB-workout (yes, that's what it was...reference PA's comparison of competition, with which I agree) as a stepping stone to the beginning of an exciting season. If you've got any sense, like we hope from all thoroughbred connections, you'll be dreaming considerably bigger than this (particularly if last year proved disappointing).

But please, don't try to make it something it's not. Makes you look like one of those crazy-hat fans from HRTV videos who knows more about scrapbooking than horseracing. :bang:

I'm with tzipi here: bring on bigger - and much better - racing! So much more to come...maybe we'll have a chance to get REALLY excited. :cool:

Any horse can have an off day..Stumble at the gate or just not run on that certain day..We all have become accustomed watching Zenyatta go to the back and spot the field 6 to 15 lengths. Nothing is guaranteed. Each and every victory is something to get excited about. Whether you agree with me or not..

[Charlie D]

On to bigger and better now and the great racing of summer.


Hope so tzipi, hope so.

[tzipi]

Each and every victory is something to get excited about. Whether you agree with me or not..

Totally agree there :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

If Zenyatta would of lost today on the dirt..You know all the Zenyatta bashers would of been out in groves. Saying see, she can only run on the sythetics..When she wins, they come up with excuses why it was so easy..When she loses. Wait, she hasn't lost yet..LMAO!!!!She won on the dirt two+ years before today. We all knew she could win on the dirt.

What we want to see is for her beat the kind of horses Rachel beat on the dirt last year. Or beat Rachel herself.

You know...Grade 1 Male winners over the dirt.

[ghostyapper]

She won on the dirt two+ years before today. We all knew she could win on the dirt.

What we want to see is for her beat the kind of horses Rachel beat on the dirt last year. Or beat Rachel herself.

You know...Grade 1 winners over the dirt.

She beat a 7 time G1 winner and champion in ginger punch. Of course that wasn't enough because she was such a terrible and lucky champion. Unfortunately opinions rarely change in this game so people will continue....

[thaskalos]

At a time when our sport badly needs a real superstar...Zenyatta is just what the doctor ordered. A shining example of power, grace and beauty, that reminds us horseplayers why we fell in love with this game in the first place. It's true...she didn't face any real competition today, but seeing her handle the dirt with apparent ease, I can't wait to see what the future will bring. Even if that means more confrontations with our friendly moderator here...

[ezrabrooks]

She won on the dirt two+ years before today. We all knew she could win on the dirt.

What we want to see is for her beat the kind of horses Rachel beat on the dirt last year. Or beat Rachel herself.

You know...Grade 1 winners over the dirt.

She tried today...but, nobody showed up. SAss tried with his 3rd string, but it didn't quite work as well as JS.

[PaceAdvantage]

She beat a 7 time G1 winner and champion in ginger punch. Of course that wasn't enough because she was such a terrible and lucky champion. Unfortunately opinions rarely change in this game so people will continue....I forgot the word MALE...I have revised my reply.

[tzipi]

She tried today...but, nobody showed up. SAss tried with his 3rd string, but it didn't quite work as well as JS.

No one showed up because no one pointed for it because they figured they would be running at best for 3rd place money against RA and Zen and also it's an early year race. Why people are talking this race up against allowance horses is beyond me. It was a workout for Zenny and she did just what she was suppose to do which was wave bye bye and stretch those legs. Well for what the race was, I think she got the fans going and that's what racing needs today :)

[ghostyapper]

I forgot the word MALE...I have revised my reply.

Males rachel beat last year?

Who knows if summer bird will ever get back to his old self so forget him for a second. That leaves macho again, mine that bird, and who else munnings? :lol: You would be confident betting macho again and mtb in a race vs zenyatta on dirt?

[PaceAdvantage]

Males rachel beat last year?

Who knows if summer bird will ever get back to his old self so forget him for a second. That leaves macho again, mine that bird, and who else munnings? :lol: You would be confident betting macho again and mtb in a race vs zenyatta on dirt?I said Grade 1 Males. They don't have to be the same males.

Rachel did it...so Zenyatta should be able to as well, don't you think?

[Pick6]

Getting the std. 5 pound weight break from males at 1 1/4, or equal weight against females at 1 1/8+, Zenyatta will DEFINITELY be favored over anybody currently in training.

[boogazie]

She won on the dirt two+ years before today. We all knew she could win on the dirt.

What we want to see is for her beat the kind of horses Rachel beat on the dirt last year. Or beat Rachel herself.

You know...Grade 1 Male winners over the dirt.

We might see it later in the year. She pointed to this race only because of a potential showdown with Rachel which didn't happen.

While we're at it, I will only acknowledge Rachel as a "great" horse if she beats the same males as Zenyatta on a synthetic surface. This is akin to what some are asking from Zenyatta on her second start of the year. We all need to have some patience.

[PaceAdvantage]

We might see it later in the year. She pointed to this race only because of a potential showdown with Rachel which didn't happen.

While we're at it, I will only acknowledge Rachel as a "great" horse if she beats the same males as Zenyatta on a synthetic surface. This is akin to what some are asking from Zenyatta on her second start of the year. We all need to have some patience.Not if you consider dirt to be the traditional surface of American racing, where the greats of the past have been tested.

Synthetic does not enjoy that kind of thinking in the game as of yet. Unfortunate for Zenyatta, but the truth just the same.

Synthetics are a curious third surface...a side show in my opinion...no matter what the folks at Keeneland and the Breeders' Cup want you to believe.

[Igeteven]

Synthetics are a curious third surface...a side show in my opinion...no matter what the folks at Keeneland and the Breeders' Cup want you to believe.[/QUOTE]

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Pick6]

The best horses are not defined by the surface on which they are run. They are defined by their performances against top class competition.

If this were the case then no European horse would ever be considered any good, when in fact there have been top class Euro runners that had worlds of class.

American racing is too focused on the clock. This screws up American breeding to the point that we can't beat the top European runners at classic distances.

[DeanT]

Some excellent posts here pick 6. :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Most top class competition in the United States occurs on the dirt and always has. This is precisely the reason why turf horses have such trouble winning HOY in this country, unless there are no stand out runners on the dirt.

Thus, the best horses ARE defined by the surfaces on which they have run.

In the list of the best American racehorses of the past 20-30 years, how many are dirt runners vs. how many are turf runners?

[ghostyapper]

I said Grade 1 Males. They don't have to be the same males.

Rachel did it...so Zenyatta should be able to as well, don't you think?

Depends on the males. Do I think she could beat the quality of males rachel beat last year on the dirt? Absolutely.

But what if a 3yo like eskendereya turns out to be a freak and she loses to him? In your eyes then she'll never be as good as rachel if they don't face?

[Pick6]

Most top class competition in the United States occurs on the dirt and always has. This is precisely the reason why turf horses have such trouble winning HOY in this country, unless there are no stand out runners on the dirt.

Thus, the best horses ARE defined by the surfaces on which they have run.

In the list of the best American racehorses of the past 20-30 years, how many are dirt runners vs. how many are turf runners?

Many great turf runners in US, but not recently probably because of breeding and focus on speed.

John Henry was top handicap horse for multiple years and performed brilliantly on dirt and turf.

Secretariat proved himself on both surfaces. Although he ducked Prove Out in the 2 mile JCGC.

Again, you are missing the point. It's not the surface, it's the class of the fields beaten. If Euros chose to run their races on dirt instead of turf, I'm certain they could come over here and dominate dirt racing at 1 1/4 and up distances because that is how they train their horses. We train our horses for speed, generally not exceeding 1 1/8 miles. Look at Rachel Alexandra. She will never run at classic distances because she does not have the class and stamina to win at those distances against top competition, e.g. Zenyatta or Quality Road.

It just so happens that American racing started 150 years ago on that prepared dirt patch on Long Island.

[chickenhead]

It only really matters if you're arguably beating the best male horses around. Anything else and you're just a really good filly. They're both already really good fillies. Rachel was the best around on dirt last year. I think just due to Quality Roads performance (ignoring her getting beat by another filly), she's already lost that title and would have to beat him to regain it. Same goes for Z.

If you're not top dog, you're just a really good filly. But best filly is a decent consolation prize with another very good filly around, so hopefully that will get sorted out at some point.

[DRIVEWAY]

I said Grade 1 Males. They don't have to be the same males.

Rachel did it...so Zenyatta should be able to as well, don't you think?

You're right. If Zenyatta can't beat grade 1 Males on dirt then Rachel will be considered better by many fans. Obviously, Rachel will never chance running against Zenyatta, so that's what it will take.

But Zenyatta shouldn't concern herself with Rachel. Zenyatta should just continue with her own campaign and let the chips fall where they may. A nice campaign and then the Breeders Cup Ladies Classic or the BC Classic at the end of October.

A possible undefeated career and three BC victories will set her apart for decades to come. People will probably just have to wonder and argue who was best - Rachel or Zenyatta.

[Tom]

Was a dumb race , means nothing , what a joke . We get worked up over this ?

Maybe that says a lot. SHE made it clear from the git go that she was running in that race. She ducked no one. Where was the competition? A half a mil pure is not chopped liver.

SHE showed up. Everyone else made the fuss, first make it 5mil, then we will come, but then we won't, but then we will, but then we get beat by the B team, now we won't....meanwhile, every filly and mare in the world knew where a half mil was going to be given away and who was going to be there.

If that race meant nothing, that refers to the so-called competition out there - ALL of them. She came, she saw, she danced, she entertained, she danced again, and the rest watched it on TV.

[Pick6]

But Zenyatta shouldn't concern herself with Rachel. Zenyatta should just continue with her own campaign and let the chips fall where they may. A nice campaign and then the Breeders Cup Ladies Classic or the BC Classic at the end of October.

A possible undefeated career and three BC victories will set her apart for decades to come. People will probably just have to wonder and argue who was best - Rachel or Zenyatta.
My point exactly. Years from now a campaign leading to 2010 BC Classic victory at 1 1/4 miles will convince historians that Zenyatta was one for the ages, and superior to any achievements of Rachel Alexandra.

[PaceAdvantage]

Obviously, Rachel will never chance running against Zenyatta, so that's what it will take.More absurdity. If she's not going to run against Zenyatta, then she might as well retire.

If she doesn't retire, then she is going to run against Zenyatta.

[PaceAdvantage]

She will never run at classic distances because she does not have the class and stamina to win at those distances against top competition, e.g. Zenyatta or Quality Road.Please, spare me. They said Holy Bull couldn't get 10 panels either...then he ran in the Travers, faced down a true rabbit, then held off the eventual BC Classic winner that year, all while going 10 panels.

Rachel is bred much better for 10 furlongs than Holy Bull ever was. She also won the Preakness going 9.5 furlongs in case you forgot.

Moral of the story? Never say a horse can't get the classic distance against top competition until they actually prove that they can't.

[Pick6]

I'd be willing to make a prop bet on this, as I think the odds are in favor of these two never competing against each other. But we don't know each other so I guess not.

[Pick6]

Please, spare me. They said Holy Bull couldn't get 10 panels either...then he ran in the Travers, faced down a true rabbit, then held off the eventual BC Classic winner that year, all while going 10 panels.

Rachel is bred much better for 10 furlongs than Holy Bull ever was. She also won the Preakness going 9.5 furlongs in case you forgot.
Preakness is not a "classic" distance, i.e. 1 1/4 miles.

Another prop bet: Rachel Alexandra never runs at 1 1/4 miles or further.

[PaceAdvantage]

Preakness is not a "classic" distance, i.e. 1 1/4 miles.

Another prop bet: Rachel Alexandra never runs at 1 1/4 miles or further.I know...that extra .5 furlong is really going to be her undoing some day.

If the Haskell was 10 furlongs instead of 9 furlongs, I'm sure you would agree Rachel would have lost that one... :rolleyes:

I'm willing to wager she would have held off Mine That Bird in the Preakness had it been an extra .5 furlong longer, but I don't want your head to explode, so I won't actually say that...

[ghostyapper]

I know...that extra .5 furlong is really going to be her undoing some day.

If the Haskell was 10 furlongs instead of 9 furlongs, I'm sure you would agree Rachel would have lost that one... :rolleyes:

I'm willing to wager she would have held off Mine That Bird in the Preakness had it been an extra .5 furlong longer, but I don't want your head to explode, so I won't actually say that...

Not to rehash an old argument (u brought it up) but anyone with 2 functional eyes could see that she was not holding off mtb for another 2 strides, let alone 1/16 of a mile.

Now it's your turn to bring up the meaningless gallop out

[PaceAdvantage]

Not to rehash an old argument (u brought it up) but anyone with 2 functional eyes could see that she was not holding off mtb for another 2 strides, let alone 1/16 of a mile.

Now it's your turn to bring up the meaningless gallop outMy functional eyes with over 20 years of race watching experience say otherwise. And it was definitely more than two strides...

I don't need to bring up the gallop out...

[Pick6]

I know...that extra .5 furlong is really going to be her undoing some day.

If the Haskell was 10 furlongs instead of 9 furlongs, I'm sure you would agree Rachel would have lost that one... :rolleyes:

I'm willing to wager she would have held off Mine That Bird in the Preakness had it been an extra .5 furlong longer, but I don't want your head to explode, so I won't actually say that...
So are you saying Mine That Bird does not clip Rachel Alexandra with another 1/16 left at the Preakness?

Are you saying that we just concede that RA can go 1 1/4 "classic' distance against top competition like Zenyatta and Quality Road without actually doing it? Or running anywhere at 1 1/4 miles?

I would actually give you 7/5 odds RA does not run 1 1/4+ in her career. Much like Z on dirt, when RA does run a classic distance and wins I will congratulate her. Until then, no dice.

[thaskalos]

More absurdity. If she's not going to run against Zenyatta, then she might as well retire.

If she doesn't retire, then she is going to run against Zenyatta. Or Rachel can keep running this year, and just keep avoiding Zenyatta. Her connections have been doing a good job of that so far...

[Pick6]

Or Rachel can keep running this year, and just keep avoiding Zenyatta. Her connections have been doing a good job of that so far...
Unfortunately this scenario appears most likely...

[RockHardTen1985]

She won on the dirt two+ years before today. We all knew she could win on the dirt.

What we want to see is for her beat the kind of horses Rachel beat on the dirt last year. Or beat Rachel herself.

You know...Grade 1 Male winners over the dirt.


Rachel beat shit on the dirt last year, the clear clear cut Best Rachel beat Z also beat.

[ghostyapper]

Or Rachel can keep running this year, and just keep avoiding Zenyatta. Her connections have been doing a good job of that so far...

Exactly. My guess is they will throw some race out there in the summer/fall where they know zenyatta would not go as a possible showdown, to try and save face.

If you want to avoid a horse it's very easy to do it these days with all the options.

[bks]

If you're not top dog, you're just a really good filly. But best filly is a decent consolation prize with another very good filly around, so hopefully that will get sorted out at some point.

You can say that, but exactly who has Quality Road beat? Dunkirk? QR is extremely talented, but only modestly accomplished for his level of talent.

If he runs his best race, QR could beat Zenyatta. No quarrel. If, however, he runs the race he's run both times he faced top competition, he gets passed like the rest of them.

[Fager Fan]

My point exactly. Years from now a campaign leading to 2010 BC Classic victory at 1 1/4 miles will convince historians that Zenyatta was one for the ages, and superior to any achievements of Rachel Alexandra.

Ever heard that saying about counting chickens?

It's only April 10. There's a lot of racing left this year, and none of us knows what Rachel, Zen, Quality Road, or others will be adding to their resumes -- and which ones have falls from grace.

I can tell you now that I wouldn't hesitate to bet Quality Road over Zen. I have to see Rachel's next race and how she's doing to know what I think of her chances against QR or Zen.

[ghostyapper]

You can say that, but exactly who has Quality Road beat? Dunkirk? QR is extremely talented, but only modestly accomplished for his level of talent.

If he runs his best race, QR could beat Zenyatta. No quarrel. If, however, he runs the race he's run both times he faced top competition, he gets passed like the rest of them.

We may be overrating QR off that donn performance but what 2 top competition performances are you referring to?

[horses4courses]

Or Rachel can keep running this year, and just keep avoiding Zenyatta. Her connections have been doing a good job of that so far...

I'm a fan of Zenyatta's....but I can't agree.

Her connections can't risk running RA until they feel she is near perfect.

I agree with PA - their goal has to be to run against Z - why race otherwise?

Who knows if they can reach that goal?

We all have to hope that they do........

[Fager Fan]

Exactly. My guess is they will throw some race out there in the summer/fall where they know zenyatta would not go as a possible showdown, to try and save face.


By that, I take it you mean one of the top open races on dirt?

[bks]

We may be overrating QR off that donn performance but what 2 top competition performances are you referring to?

The two losses to Summer Bird, I meant.

[Pick6]

Ever heard that saying about counting chickens?

It's only April 10. There's a lot of racing left this year, and none of us knows what Rachel, Zen, Quality Road, or others will be adding to their resumes -- and which ones have falls from grace.

I can tell you now that I wouldn't hesitate to bet Quality Road over Zen. I have to see Rachel's next race and how she's doing to know what I think of her chances against QR or Zen.
The scenario I described assumes Zenyatta goes on to win the BC Classic this year. This is entirely within reasonable probability and would outdo anything Rachel Alexandra ever did.

I would book that bet btw, if we could somehow escrow the $.

[ghostyapper]

By that, I take it you mean one of the top open races on dirt?

No just that would be too risky. They'll suggest a race maybe 3 weeks after zenyatta runs or another kind of time constraint to ensure they won't go.

They did something similar last year by suggesting an october race at belmont when they new zenyatta was pointing towards the bc at oak tree.

[ghostyapper]

The two losses to Summer Bird, I meant.

I actually loved his jcgc losing performance. It wasn't as visually impressive as his gp races but it was a damn good performance.

[Pick6]

By that, I take it you mean one of the top open races on dirt?
Yes, BC Classic, Churchhill Downs, 1 1/4 miles.

I got a feeling Rachel Alexandra won't be there, not in that race anyways.

[Fager Fan]

No just that would be too risky. They'll suggest a race maybe 3 weeks after zenyatta runs or another kind of time constraint to ensure they won't go.

They did something similar last year by suggesting an october race at belmont when they new zenyatta was pointing towards the bc at oak tree.

Yeah, and the Zen camp said they were actually planning on being in the Beldame if Rachel showed up though they knew she was going in the Woodward. So, both camps have been disingenuous at times.

[ghostyapper]

Yes, BC Classic, Churchhill Downs, 1 1/4 miles.

I got a feeling Rachel Alexandra won't be there, not in that race anyways.

Its either classic or bust. No way they send her to the bc ladies, especially if zenyatta is in the classic. That would look beyond bad.

I figure she will be retired around the same time she was last year, early september.

[ghostyapper]

Yeah, and the Zen camp said they were actually planning on being in the Beldame if Rachel showed up though they knew she was going in the Woodward. So, both camps have been disingenuous at times.

First off rachel running in the woodward has nothing to do with the beldame. The races are a month apart. And zenyatta's connections NEVER seriously considered the beldame so now you're just lying. It would have made NO SENSE for them to fly her east for a big show down when they were planning on running in the bc.

Rachel could have easily run in the woodward and beldame so you don't know what you're talking about. But you've made that very clear tonight.

[Pick6]

I heard Moss NEVER runs his horses at BEL, due to the sh*tty detention barn.

But PA posted an article that seems to indicate Moss may have changed positions. Maybe he arranged a special dispensation from NYRA, because they would sure like to put on a RA/Z race.

[Greyfox]

With months to prepare RA was a $ 5 million dollar "no show."
That speaks volumes.
'nuff said. Doubtful the match up will ever take place.

[Fager Fan]

First off rachel running in the woodward has nothing to do with the beldame. The races are a month apart. And zenyatta's connections NEVER seriously considered the beldame so now you're just lying. It would have made NO SENSE for them to fly her east for a big show down when they were planning on running in the bc.

Rachel could have easily run in the woodward and beldame so you don't know what you're talking about. But you've made that very clear tonight.

You need to learn some manners, and egg on your face isn't very attractive either.

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/11/zenyattas-camp-wanted-to-meet.html

Zenyatta's camp wanted to meet Rachel in Beldame

By Art Wilson on November 5, 2009 9:54 PM | Permalink | Comments (37) |

Those who've been accusing the Zenyatta camp of staying home, protecting their mare's perfect record and ducking probable Horse of the Year Rachel Alexandra, perhaps better think again.

Apparently, Rachel Alexandra's connections felt more compelled to face older males than race against Zenyatta this past summer. Jess Jackson and Co. had every opportunity to meet Zenyatta on dirt and in a 1 1/8-mile one-turn race, which would have been advantageous to the fabulous 3-year-old filly, but opted to go in the Woodward.

Zenyatta's trainer, John Shirreffs, says they nominated the 5-year-old daughter of Street Cry to the $600,000 Grade 1 Beldame States at Belmont Park, which was run on Oct. 3, in hopes that Rachel Alexandra would bypass the Woodward at Saratoga on Sept. 5 and instead wait and run against Zenyatta.

"That was the whole reason for nominating her to the Beldame," Shirreffs said. "It was probably the one realistic opportunity that we both had. Because up until then, obviously she was running in 3-year-old races and we were out here."

[PaceAdvantage]

I would book that bet btw, if we could somehow escrow the $.You can stop with this nonsense...there will be no booking of bets or anything of that sort...for starters, it's illegal, so I would appreciate that you stop posting about it...

[PaceAdvantage]

Unless Rachel retires, she will race against Zenyatta. That's the bottom line.

To think otherwise is to think that Jess Jackson is racing Rachel for absolutely no reason. That would be beyond stupid.

[Nitro]

She won on the dirt two+ years before today. We all knew she could win on the dirt.

What we want to see is for her beat the kind of horses Rachel beat on the dirt last year. Or beat Rachel herself.

You know...Grade 1 Male winners over the dirt.
Are you talking about all of those G1 horses RA beat in the Woodward?

None of which were entered in the BC Classic (and none of which are G1 winners).

If anyone really believes that RA will even face Zenyatta its wishful thinking I'm afraid. They intentionally ducked the BC Classic and then the Apple Blossom. I doubt that RA will run at CD in the BC Classic this year against the type of competition it has never faced (but Zenyatta has!). (I hope I'm wrong!) I would love to finally see an end to all this conjecture and have Zenyatta put RA's connections and its unwitting fans out of their misery, particularly at the Classic distance of 1 1/4 miles.

Quality horses run on any surface!

[Pick6]

You can stop with this nonsense...there will be no booking of bets or anything of that sort...for starters, it's illegal, so I would appreciate that you stop posting about it...
OK. Just a hypothetical to expand on a point. Sorry if I violated any rules.

[BluegrassProf]

Quality horses run on any surface!
:D

[ghostyapper]

You need to learn some manners, and egg on your face isn't very attractive either.

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/11/zenyattas-camp-wanted-to-meet.html


http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/08/a-rachel-zenyatta-matchup-in-b.html

Don't believe everything you read. But I never realized Sheriffs made those quotes in the article you posted so if they are true then you are right, they both postured.

But this also means that we can chalk up the beldame as another quack quack for rachel. ;)

[Charlie D]

Who thinks RA could have beaten Classic feild that Zen beat???

[Pick6]

Unless Rachel retires, she will race against Zenyatta. That's the bottom line.

To think otherwise is to think that Jess Jackson is racing Rachel for absolutely no reason. That would be beyond stupid.
Ok, I am not "prop betting" here. But honestly, what % chance do you estimate:
1. RA/Z meet in a race;
2. RA runs in the BC Classic.

[PaceAdvantage]

Are you talking about all of those G1 horses RA beat in the Woodward?So you're going with Rachel never beat any quality G1 dirt horses?

Destroyed Summer Bird who came back to win the Travers and the JCGC.

Interesting...now break out the excuse that Summer Bird hates mud (better check the charts for the Travers and JCGC before you claim that), and/or Summer Bird didn't run using his customary style (again, better check those Travers and JCGC charts...same running style as the Haskell).

The Woodward? Three grade 1 MALE winners were in that race, but we won't count Da'Tara...so two grade 1 winners...plus the horse that finished 2nd in the 2008 Woodward, beaten only 1.25 lengths by Curlin himself...

Yeah, the Woodward doesn't count at all...synthetics, turf horses and Euros are the new barometer of greatness in the United States.

[Pick6]

Who thinks RA could have beaten Classic feild that Zen beat???
Don't you know? The race did not count because they raced it on wax. None of those BC races counted. Something akin to Canadian Football?

IMO, RA would have been fortunate to hit the board.

[Charlie D]

Don't understand why people think RA won't face Zenyatta when connections feel she is ready to do so. Jackson never avoided anyone with Curlin.

[Pick6]

Yeah, the Woodward doesn't count at all...synthetics, turf horses and Euros are the new barometer of greatness in the United States.

Performances against top class competition at classic distances.

How many truly great American horses never won at 1 1/4 miles and up against open (read: male) competition?

[Charlie D]

Don't you know? The race did not count because they raced it on wax. None of those BC races counted. Something akin to Canadian Football?


They count, hence the Euro invasion past two years

IMO, RA would have been fortunate to hit the board.


Really. Then, i think you underestimate RA's ability

[PaceAdvantage]

How many truly great American horses never won at 1 1/4 miles and up against open (read: male) competition?The late Personal Ensign for starters...next.

[ghostyapper]

Don't understand why people think RA won't face Zenyatta when connections feel she is ready to do so. Jackson never avoided anyone with Curlin.

So she wasn't ready last fall and she wasn't ready in april. When exactly will she be ready?

And what does what jackson did with Curlin have to do with his handling of RA? They are 2 different animals.

[ghostyapper]

The late Personal Ensign for starters...next.

She won 2 beldame's at 10 furlongs.

[Fager Fan]

Performances against top class competition at classic distances.

How many truly great American horses never won at 1 1/4 miles and up against open (read: male) competition?

Pick6, I'm curious who you thought should've been HOY for 2008 -- Curlin or Zenyatta?

[Fager Fan]

So she wasn't ready last fall and she wasn't ready in april. When exactly will she be ready?

And what does what jackson did with Curlin have to do with his handling of RA? They are 2 different animals.

Yes, we all know that Jackson ducked the competition by sending Rachel to the Preakness, Haskell, and Woodward. After all, 3yo fillies race in those races all the time.

[PaceAdvantage]

She won 2 beldame's at 10 furlongs.Did he not specify "open (read: male) competition"

Next.

[Charlie D]

So she wasn't ready last fall and she wasn't ready in april. When exactly will she be ready?

And what does what jackson did with Curlin have to do with his handling of RA? They are 2 different animals.


Jackson stated he was not going to run on synthetics or did you miss that. No different to Aidan O'Brien/Ballydoyle choosing not to run George Washington on a surface they thought usuitable in Dewhurst.


April??? you mean today, connections decided not to run because they think she wasn't ready, whats wrong with that.


Do you want her to finish out back and Zen to waltz in again or to see a proper race betweem these two very good horses.

[ghostyapper]

lol well if personal ensign, go for wand and ruffian are not great girls then I don't know who is.

[PaceAdvantage]

lol well if personal ensign, go for wand and ruffian are not great girls then I don't know who is.You aren't reading very well tonight. By answering Personal Ensign, I am stating that she was a truly great American runner who never faced "open (read: male) competition" at 1 1/4 miles.

That was the question posed by Pick6.

[WinterTriangle]

Mike never moved his hands. If they had let her really run, can you imagine how many lengths she'd have beaten them? . Good sportsmanship not to do that, and Zen only need do what she has to do to get the job done.

She started right away with the front leg stuff, stretching it out, and all her antics. :D A joy to watch.

I was suprised they had her in the paddock. The flashes from cameras were going off like crazy. I thought they would saddle her outside.

She looked quite happy on dirt. And quite happy to race....and win.

[ghostyapper]

Yes, we all know that Jackson ducked the competition by sending Rachel to the Preakness, Haskell, and Woodward. After all, 3yo fillies race in those races all the time.


He started off good by running her in the preakness and haskell.

He ducked the travers for the easier spot in the woodward. That is a fact. Since then it's been alot of ducks.

[ghostyapper]

You aren't reading very well tonight. By answering Personal Ensign, I am stating that she was a truly great American runner who never faced "open (read: male) competition" at 1 1/4 miles.

That was the question posed by Pick6.

I am agreeing with you. My reply was for pick 6.

[Igeteven]

Mike never moved his hands. If they had let her really run, can you imagine how many lengths she'd have beaten them? . Good sportsmanship not to do that, and Zen only need do what she has to do to get the job done.

She started right away with the front leg stuff, stretching it out, and all her antics. :D A joy to watch.

I was suprised they had her in the paddock. The flashes from cameras were going off like crazy. I thought they would saddle her outside.

She looked quite happy on dirt. And quite happy to race....and win.

Good post, :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Mike never moved his hands. If they had let her really run, can you imagine how many lengths she'd have beaten them?Around 6 to 6.5 tops is my guess.

Don't tell me you think she would have won by 15.

[letswastemoney]

This debate will never end and both sides will have very good points until Zenyatta and Rachel actually race each other.

[PaceAdvantage]

I am agreeing with you. My reply was for pick 6.Didn't realize that...sorry...

[Charlie D]

He started off good by running her in the preakness and haskell.

He ducked the travers for the easier spot in the woodward. That is a fact. Since then it's been alot of ducks.



Where do you get these facts from as i did not see connections state they were "ducking" Travers for the easier Woodward spot.

[Igeteven]

This debate will never end and both sides will have very good points until Zenyatta and Rachel actually race each other.

It's got to happen, but Where???

The public wants it, the tracks want it, the owner of Zenyatta wants it, however, where is Rachel? Will she ever show up?

[PaceAdvantage]

It's got to happen, but Where???

The public want it, the tracks want it, the owner of Zenyatta wants it, however, where is Rachel? Will she ever show up?No, she'll never show up. Everyone knows all the really important races have to be run before tax day.

[Fager Fan]

He started off good by running her in the preakness and haskell.

He ducked the travers for the easier spot in the woodward. That is a fact. Since then it's been alot of ducks.

Please, don't try to rewrite history. First, a filly going against older males is not an easier spot than the Travers. Don't forget that Rachel already beat the Travers winner. Second, they had a 3yo colt going in the Travers, so it makes sense that he didn't enter both of them in the same race.

Third, the Woodward was her last race of the season -- she was physically wiped out from the campaign. She didn't duck anyone after the Woodward, and didn't duck Zenyatta today. Had she been 100%, she'd have been there. Everyone with a little horse knowledge knew that they were really pushing the envelope in hopes of making this race, and it just didn't work out for them. Period.

I personally don't believe that either Zenyatta or Rachel has ducked the other, but instead have taken the paths that they thought best to achieve their end goals for last year.

[Igeteven]

No, she'll never show up. Everyone knows all the really important races have to be run before tax day.


Tax day: :( :( :( :( :( :(

[Pick6]

I will concede Ruffian. And all of those fillies ran at 1 1/4 miles or further.

I would just like to see RA at a classic distance against anybody. I don't see it happening.

I put Zenyatta above all of the fillies mentioned, except Ruffian.

[ghostyapper]

Please, don't try to rewrite history. First, a filly going against older males is not an easier spot than the Travers. Don't forget that Rachel already beat the Travers winner. Second, the Woodward was her last race of the season -- she was physically wiped out from the campaign. She didn't duck anyone after the Woodward, and didn't duck Zenyatta today. Had she been 100%, she'd have been there. Everyone with a little horse knowledge knew that they were really pushing the envelope in hopes of making this race, and it just didn't work out for them. Period.

I personally don't believe that either Zenyatta or Rachel has ducked the other, but instead have taken the paths that they thought best to achieve their end goals for last year.

Let me ask you this question then. If rachel was rested starting early september, why was she not ready for today's race???

[Charlie D]

Please, don't try to rewrite history. First, a filly going against older males is not an easier spot than the Travers. Don't forget that Rachel already beat the Travers winner. Second, they had a 3yo colt going in the Travers, so it makes sense that he didn't enter both of them in the same race.

Third, the Woodward was her last race of the season -- she was physically wiped out from the campaign. She didn't duck anyone after the Woodward, and didn't duck Zenyatta today. Had she been 100%, she'd have been there. Everyone with a little horse knowledge knew that they were really pushing the envelope in hopes of making this race, and it just didn't work out for them. Period.

I personally don't believe that either Zenyatta or Rachel has ducked the other, but instead have taken the paths that they thought best to achieve their end goals for last year.


I like Fager Fan, he seems to talk sense.

[Fager Fan]

I will concede Ruffian. And all of those fillies ran at 1 1/4 miles or further.

I would just like to see RA at a classic distance against anybody. I don't see it happening.

I put Zenyatta above all of the fillies mentioned, except Ruffian.

Pick 6, the posts are rapid so I just don't know if I missed it. Did you tell me what horse you thought should've been HOY for 2008 -- Zenyatta or Curlin?

[ghostyapper]

I like Fager Fan, he seems to talk sense.

yup, nonsense

[WinterTriangle]

Good post, :ThmbUp:

As described in the press, she barely had to go into 2nd gear.

Can you imagine what she'd be like in gear 5 (overdrive?):eek:



It's there, believe me. We have just never seen it yet. Not even close. Maybe 3.5 so far, at most. She looked like she was cantering today.

[Pick6]

Hard to say. I don't think Zenyatta proved enough at that point in her career to earn HOY. I would probably go for Curlin.

I just wish that great filly Rags to Riches did not get hurt. If she had won anything substantial after that Belmont she would have gotten my vote. Beating Curlin at 1 1/2 miles has to be considered one of the greatest achievements ever for a filly.

[PaceAdvantage]

I will concede Ruffian. And all of those fillies ran at 1 1/4 miles or further.Now you're changing your original question. And 9.5 furlongs in the Preakness, for a 3yo filly, ain't exactly an easy feat to dismiss, like you seem to be doing, all because of that extra .5 furlong.

Will you concede that Rachel would have won the Haskell had she had to run an extra 13 seconds or so? How about the Kentucky Oaks or Mother Goose. I bet she wins those too if they were at 1 1/4 miles.

People do realize that Rachel's official winning margin in the Preakness was one length. So we can dispel that "two jumps from losing" fantasy right there.

[Charlie D]

yup, nonsense

The only persons i see talking nonsense are those who think thier opinon is fact.


Anyway, i leave you lot to this ping pong match.

[Pick6]

Now you're changing your original question. And 9.5 furlongs in the Preakness, for a 3yo filly, ain't exactly an easy feat to dismiss, like you seem to be doing, all because of that extra .5 furlong.

Will you concede that Rachel would have won the Haskell had she had to run an extra 13 seconds or so? How about the Kentucky Oaks or Mother Goose. I bet she wins those too if they were at 1 1/4 miles.

People do realize that Rachel's official winning margin in the Preakness was one length. So we can dispel that "two jumps from losing" fantasy right there.
I am absolutely sure RA could win at 1 1/4 miles. the Mother Goose could have been contested at 2 miles and the result would have been the same.

Unfortunately horse racing does not work that way. Everybody knows the distance of the race before it is run. I don't see her running at 1 1/4 or longer, because the horse does not choose the distance to run, her trainer/owner does.

Care to answer my question on chances of (1) RA/Z matchup or (2) RA running at 1 1/4 miles or longer?

[Fager Fan]

Let me ask you this question then. If rachel was rested starting early september, why was she not ready for today's race???

Because she didn't start working until Jan. 31.

[thaskalos]

BREAKING NEWS!! Charles Town racetrack just announced that they will put up a $5,000,000 purse if Zenyatta and Rachel will agree to face each other there this summer. And to insure that Rachel will show up this time, the race will be contested over the distance of 4.5 furlongs.

[Igeteven]

BREAKING NEWS!! Charles Town racetrack just announced that they will put up a $5,000,000 purse if Zenyatta and Rachel will agree to face each other there this summer. And to insure that Rachel will show up this time, the race will be contested over the distance of 4.5 furlongs.


4.5 Is that a little short for these horses?

[Fager Fan]

Hard to say. I don't think Zenyatta proved enough at that point in her career to earn HOY. I would probably go for Curlin.

I just wish that great filly Rags to Riches did not get hurt. If she had won anything substantial after that Belmont she would have gotten my vote. Beating Curlin at 1 1/2 miles has to be considered one of the greatest achievements ever for a filly.

You're in the wrong year -- Rags won the Belmont in 2007 and retired after losing her next race.

But I'm glad you would've voted for Curlin in 2008, because most Zen supporters claim she was robbed of the award that year. What amuses me, and why I wanted to know how you would've voted, is that Zen never won at a distance longer than 1 1/8 miles to that point, and it's only been since Zen won the BC Classic that winning at 1 1/4 miles became a pre-requisite for winning HOY.

[Pick6]

You're in the wrong year -- Rags won the Belmont in 2007 and retired after losing her next race.

But I'm glad you would've voted for Curlin in 2008, because most Zen supporters claim she was robbed of the award that year. What amuses me, and why I wanted to know how you would've voted, is that Zen never won at a distance longer than 1 1/8 miles to that point, and it's only been since Zen won the BC Classic that winning at 1 1/4 miles became a pre-requisite for winning HOY.
Of course, 2007. Probably the only filly comparable to Zenyatta at classic distances, in recent history at least.

I am a traditionalist; I don't go for the "modern" trend of shortening races for the sake of breeding, training, or any other reason. 2YOs get HOY awards, so it really has nothing to do with HOY or not. It relates to true greatness. I would never consider a horse great (and I mean truly great; top 50 GOAT) if they could not win at classic distances. What is wrong with that? All of the truly great horses won at classic distances. Why change our standards now? RA's handlers had a chance to prove her ability at classic distances, and they still do. I am betting against them ever running her at 1 1/4 or more, however.

[born2ride]

My point exactly. Years from now a campaign leading to 2010 BC Classic victory at 1 1/4 miles will convince historians that Zenyatta was one for the ages, and superior to any achievements of Rachel Alexandra.
A horse for the ages, yes. Superior to any achievements of Rachel, no. What has Zenyatta done that Rachel hasn't? Win 16 in a row? If that's the criteria then you must hold Pepper's Pride in very high esteem for having won 19 in a row. Winning the Classic? That only has a 26 year history, Rachel won from post 13 (run from the 14th hole) for the first time in the 137 year history of the Preakness. When Zenyatta wins back to back races against males, then we can talk who has achieved more.

[DeanT]

Excellent article by Claire Novak on the days events.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=5072350

A couple of interesting quotes I thought:

But as owner Jerry Moss said earlier in the week, she can only run against those who show up. At least, with another resounding romp on the dirt similar to her 2008 victory in the same race, questions of whether she's a synthetic specialist have effectively been put to rest. "We've always said that (dirt is her best surface)," Shirreffs said. "Not that everybody always listened."

"She's a showstopper," Cella said. "Most champions have that presence, and I believe you can look in the eye of a racehorse and you can tell. This gal, she's just a beast. I've seen some of the best mares in the racing world, and this horse is IT. I've never seen a horse like her before. Horses, racing, they're a part of Americana. And I think we've lost our focal point in this rush to create these wagers and simulcasts and the things we've had to do as an industry in order to survive ... but the glory of the horse and the art of handicapping have become somewhat lost in the shuffle. This one, this is what racing is all about. She's the most striking mare ever. I can't get over her presence. And if you have no heart and you have no backbone, you might as well not even be in the damn sport."

[chickenhead]

But I'm glad you would've voted for Curlin in 2008, because most Zen supporters claim she was robbed of the award that year.

I think this post from our very own PA (lest anyone thinks he hates Zenyatta (or did in 08 at least ;) )) summed up the general sentiment on this board the best, although I remember the general consensus was that Curlin probably had earned it over the other two, and I recall no hysterics whatsoever over Zenyatta being "robbed". Probably more was said about Big Brown getting dissed to an unfair degree due to his connections....

I truly think none of the three candidates for HOY actually deserved the award. Can't argue with anyone making a case for Zenyatta in a year such as 2008.

[Pick6]

A horse for the ages, yes. Superior to any achievements of Rachel, no. What has Zenyatta done that Rachel hasn't? Win 16 in a row? If that's the criteria then you must hold Pepper's Pride in very high esteem for having won 19 in a row. Winning the Classic? That only has a 26 year history, Rachel won from post 13 (run from the 14th hole) for the first time in the 137 year history of the Preakness. When Zenyatta wins back to back races against males, then we can talk who has achieved more.

Winning Haskell against 3YO 1 1/8 < winning BC Classic at 1 1/4
Winning Preakness against 3YO 1 3/16 < winning BC Classic at 1 1/4
Winning Woodward at 1 1/8 < winning BC Classic at 1 1/4

And there is nothing RA has done that would ever add up to equal 2 BC Classic wins. And an undefeated career (assuming it happens) will go down as one the greatest achievements ever, which RA could never equal.

Pepper's Pride raced against NM breds. No logical person is making that comparison with Zenyatta, although winning 19 in a row is nice.

[BluegrassProf]

:D

OK. As absolutely absurd as the RA vs. Z debate clearly is, I've just got to comment here:

Let me ask you this question then. If rachel was rested starting early september, why was she not ready for today's race???Exactly!

Which is fundamentally different than Zenyatta resting from early October through the beginning of May.

And Zenyatta's five races were obviously considerably more challenging than Rachel's eight, particularly since she raced all those G1 males all around the country.

And Rachel is younger, which makes her stronger and more experienced.

Like I said...exactly! :ThmbUp:

:faint:

Stoooooop...it's way, WAY worn out. More importantly, for the love of GAWD, quit with the "ducking" foolishness...we get it, if Zenyatta skips, it's for the good of the horse; if Rachel does, it's fear. Duly noted. Next argument.

But for crying out loud...re: this race...absolutely no one expected Zenyatta to do absolutely anything but exactly what she did. Using this race to justify claims of greatness make bad comments look considerably worse. It was what it was: an overmatched prep race without a single horse to press her. No shock registers just about anywhere. As I said earlier, a win's a win; great, on towards a real race or two (fingers crossed!). If any other horse - a no-name G2 mare, for example - won this race, would it inspire song? Bring tears to the eyes of the hapless masses? I've got my doubts, but hey, I'm obviously heartless.

The AB is similar, in some respects, to Rachel's Mother Goose...the notable reasons that particular race had any sort of significance were a.) its context in a difficult campaign, and b.) that she broke Ruffian's length of victory record, the stakes record, and was a tic from Big Red's track record. But again, look at the big picture...it's important.

I read a question posed to PA earlier, about what Zenyatta needed to do to impress him. I'm not answering for him, but if asked, I would say this:

It's not what she had to do or did, it's what she didn't do, and never had to. If you're concerned about the end of the year, press for races of substance and challenge. Until then, you're going to see many unimpressed faces.

And Pick6, re: the BC vs. others: Yikes. :bang:

[Igeteven]

I will concede Ruffian. And all of those fillies ran at 1 1/4 miles or further.

I would just like to see RA at a classic distance against anybody. I don't see it happening.

I put Zenyatta above all of the fillies mentioned, except Ruffian.

:) :ThmbUp: :)

[Pick6]

And Pick6, re: the BC vs. others: Yikes. :bang:
If you are trying to say BC Classic is inferior to any of the races noted, come on now. And it's on dirt this year, which throws out the dirt/wax argument.

Those races are not even at classic distances. How can they be even marginally comparable to a BC Classic at 1 1/4 miles?

[BluegrassProf]

If you are trying to say BC Classic is inferior to any of the races noted, come on now. And it's on dirt this year, which throws out the dirt/wax argument.

Those races are not even at classic distances. How can they be even marginally comparable to a BC Classic at 1 1/4 miles?I make no strong claims re: the BC, particularly given its - for lack of a better term - market value.

But if we modify your chart, to make it slightly more accurate:

Winning Haskell against 3YO 1 1/8; Winning Preakness against 3YO 1 3/16; Winning Woodward at 1 1/8 < winning BC Classic at 1 1/4
Is it still appropriate? Or are we somehow making a comparison over two years and including the dirt surface?

I beg of you, please. Enough already. So, so tired. Discussions of the AB are just dandy, but no use mishmashing arguments or constructing false implications (of this, of Rachel's absence, or anything in between).

As has been said ad infinitum, there's a whole lot of racing yet to come, with many months and many opportunities in the barrel.

A campaign is exceptional after it's run, not before.

[born2ride]

Preakness is not a "classic" distance, i.e. 1 1/4 miles.

Another prop bet: Rachel Alexandra never runs at 1 1/4 miles or further.
Technically the "classic" distance is any distance over 1 mile.

[born2ride]

Winning Haskell against 3YO 1 1/8 < winning BC Classic at 1 1/4
Winning Preakness against 3YO 1 3/16 < winning BC Classic at 1 1/4
Winning Woodward at 1 1/8 < winning BC Classic at 1 1/4

And there is nothing RA has done that would ever add up to equal 2 BC Classic wins. And an undefeated career (assuming it happens) will go down as one the greatest achievements ever, which RA could never equal.

Pepper's Pride raced against NM breds. No logical person is making that comparison with Zenyatta, although winning 19 in a row is nice.
This is exactly what you fail you get --> 3 > 1. Or at least it was when I got my advanced math degree. :D I'd also say winning the Haskell followed by the Woodward is a far greater accomplishment than solely winning the Classic. I'd also say her record setting performance in the Oaks followed two weeks later by her performance in the Preakness exceeds what Zenyatta has done or could do. Rachel has stepped outside of her division 3 times, Zenyatta has done so once.

You're right - nothing Rachel has done would equal 2 BC Classic wins. But Zenyatta doesn't have 2 Classic wins either. :confused:

[Pick6]

I make no strong claims re: the BC, particularly given its - for lack of a better term - market value.

But if we modify your chart, to make it slightly more accurate:


Is it still appropriate? Or are we somehow making a comparison over two years and including the dirt surface?

I beg of you, please. Enough already. So, so tired. Discussions of the AB are just dandy, but no use mishmashing arguments or constructing false implications (of this, of Rachel's absence, or anything in between).

As has been said ad infinitum, there's a whole lot of racing yet to come, with many months and many opportunities in the barrel.

A campaign is exceptional after it's run, not before.
I really look forward to this racing season. I agree with Sherriffs that Zenyatta will perform better on dirt than the wax. It's up to him and Moss to pick the best spots for her to show her ability. I would just as soon focus on the BC Classic and whatever best leads up to it, as it is certainly the most important race to win. Of course her detractors will construct an argument (which I see is already taking form) to somehow detract from her greatness.

All of her future success is conjecture; interesting now to see how people form their biases.

[Pick6]

This is exactly what you fail you get --> 3 > 1. Or at least it was when I got my advanced math degree. :D I'd also say winning the Haskell followed by the Woodward is a far greater accomplishment than solely winning the Classic. I'd also say her record setting performance in the Oaks followed two weeks later by her performance in the Preakness exceeds what Zenyatta has done or could do. Rachel has stepped outside of her division 3 times, Zenyatta has done so once.

You're right - nothing Rachel has done would equal 2 BC Classic wins. But Zenyatta doesn't have 2 Classic wins either. :confused:

No, I would say 3 races in this case do not equal the BC Classic, for the reasons I already mentioned. I am sure you and Zenyatta's detractors disagree with this position. If it were the Belmont Stakes, Travers, JCGC, or other races at classic distances against solid company then RA wins hands down. I know you won't be convinced, but that is last year and we are now talking this year. I already posited that Z will go on to win the 2010 BC Classic. I did this to draw out biased positions that are already forming to detract from this unprecedented accomplishment for a mare.

[Kimsus]

More absurdity. If she's not going to run against Zenyatta, then she might as well retire.

If she doesn't retire, then she is going to run against Zenyatta.

I'm convinced Zenyatta is a great horse and I do not need to see her win no. 17 in a row to realize this is an once in a lifetime horse that came along during my lifetime.

I also know this is a 6 yr old mare, I've been around long enough in this game to know horses are not machines and any one race could be the end. If she does make it to the BC classic in Nov pushing 7 yrs old, I truly hope father time will shine on her one last time, however if time does catch up with her, as it does with most horses, I hope the Zenyatta bashers will not come out in droves like vultures to pick over a carcass just to further their agendas.

I don't think Jess will allow Rachel to face Zenyatta early in the year but as the year progresses and Zenyatta nears her 7th birthday, I can see Jess picking the most opportune time to take his shot, that's the way this guy works, he knows a win over Zenyatta at perhaps at the end of the career will be his best chance to distort the record books. One thing Zenyatta may be just good enough to overcome that vulture just one more time.

[DeanT]

Of course her detractors will construct an argument (which I see is already taking form) to somehow detract from her greatness.

No, that could never happen :D

I was going to say that she could win the Classic on dirt by three, facing 11 grade one dirt winners, while running with two quarter cracks, and someone would say she would have lost if Sea the Stars showed up.

[born2ride]

No, I would say 3 races in this case do not equal the BC Classic, for the reasons I already mentioned. I am sure you and Zenyatta's detractors disagree with this position. If it were the Belmont Stakes, Travers, JCGC, or other races at classic distances against solid company then RA wins hands down. I know you won't be convinced, but that is last year and we are now talking this year. I already posited that Z will go on to win the 2010 BC Classic. I did this to draw out biased positions that are already forming to detract from this unprecedented accomplishment for a mare.
Well, apparently you're in the minority as I believe her wins against males is what won her HOY. ;)

Belmont at 1 1/2? Why should Rachel run that distance when Zenyatta never will? Why not have the same standard of comparison for both? I know you did this to draw out biased positions - I did the same and your bias is showing.

Yes we should be talking this year not last year. There is a lot of racing left, and it remains to be seen where Zenyatta will run next, same for Rachel.

[born2ride]

I'm convinced Zenyatta is a great horse and I do not need to see her win no. 17 in a row to realize this is an once in a lifetime horse that came along during my lifetime.

I also know this is a 6 yr old mare, I've been around long enough in this game to know horses are not machines and any one race could be the end. If she does make it to the BC classic in Nov pushing 7 yrs old, I truly hope father time will shine on her one last time, however if time does catch up with her, as it does with most horses, I hope the Zenyatta bashers will not come out in droves like vultures to pick over a carcass just to further their agendas.

I don't think Jess will allow Rachel to face Zenyatta early in the year but as the year progresses and Zenyatta nears her 7th birthday, I can see Jess picking the most opportune time to take his shot, that's the way this guy works, he knows a win over Zenyatta at perhaps at the end of the career will be his best chance to distort the record books. One thing Zenyatta may be just good enough to overcome that vulture just one more time.
First two paragraphs I agree with, last one I don't. Why bash Jackson for picking a good spot when Shirreffs did the same with Zardana knowing he was facing a short Rachel? If you're going to place constraints on one camp, please do so on the other equally.

[Greyfox]

There are two sides (or more) to horse racing.

1. Picking Winners.
2. Betting.

Zenyatta won. No surprise.

Betting: Huge surprise.

Exacta $ 18 and change

Trifecta: $ 48 and change.

5 horses in the race. A simple tri = 1 x 4 X 3 bets. Go figure.

The wise guy in the other thread that was "Bridge Jumping" with his 10 K
looks like a "bone head" considering these exotics.

[OntheRail]

Let me ask you this question then. If rachel was rested starting early september, why was she not ready for today's race???

Lost time on the track do to weather. But I guess only Zenyatta gets a pass when the track is not safe to work or race on. :rolleyes:

[Igeteven]

There are two sides (or more) to horse racing.

1. Picking Winners.
2. Betting.

Zenyatta won. No surprise.

Betting: Huge surprise.

Exacta $ 18 and change

Trifecta: $ 48 and change.

5 horses in the race 1 x 4 X 3 bets. Go figure.

The wise guy in the other thread that was "Bridge Jumping" with his 10 K
looks like a "bone head" considering these exotics.



I can figure this, East Coast Players, hate West Coast Players and never do they trust a horse from the west coast

[JustRalph]

I'm convinced Zenyatta is a great horse and I do not need to see her win no. 17 in a row to realize this is an once in a lifetime horse that came along during my lifetime.

I also know this is a 6 yr old mare, I've been around long enough in this game to know horses are not machines and any one race could be the end. If she does make it to the BC classic in Nov pushing 7 yrs old, I truly hope father time will shine on her one last time, however if time does catch up with her, as it does with most horses, I hope the Zenyatta bashers will not come out in droves like vultures to pick over a carcass just to further their agendas.

I don't think Jess will allow Rachel to face Zenyatta early in the year but as the year progresses and Zenyatta nears her 7th birthday, I can see Jess picking the most opportune time to take his shot, that's the way this guy works, he knows a win over Zenyatta at perhaps at the end of the career will be his best chance to distort the record books. One thing Zenyatta may be just good enough to overcome that vulture just one more time.

Wow! You oughta write for Law and Order:SVU you being dramatic enough?
You are ate up with it...........Zenyatta fever

[Greyfox]

I can figure this, East Coast Players, hate West Coast Players and never do they trust a horse from the west coast

Good hypothesis. Nevertheless, there was money to be made here.

Ex $ 18 Tri $8

[Greyfox]

OOps. Ex $ 18 Tri $ 48

[ghostyapper]

.

I also know this is a 6 yr old mare, I've been around long enough in this game to know horses are not machines and any one race could be the end. If she does make it to the BC classic in Nov pushing 7 yrs old, I truly hope father time will shine on her one last time, however if time does catch up with her, as it does with most horses, I hope the Zenyatta bashers will not come out in droves like vultures to pick over a carcass just to further their agendas.

I don't think Jess will allow Rachel to face Zenyatta early in the year but as the year progresses and Zenyatta nears her 7th birthday, I can see Jess picking the most opportune time to take his shot, that's the way this guy works, he knows a win over Zenyatta at perhaps at the end of the career will be his best chance to distort the record books. One thing Zenyatta may be just good enough to overcome that vulture just one more time.

Great point. When I first heard talk of zenyatta maybe just coming back for a matchup in the donn or that she was coming back for the whole year, my first thoughts were rachel's connections would try and delay a match as much as possible because of the age issue. Hopefully Z stays strong until the end of the year.

[ghostyapper]

Lost time on the track do to weather. But I guess only Zenyatta gets a pass when the track is not safe to work or race on. :rolleyes:

She got a pass? I remember people screaming last year that Z didn't start her season until so late in the year or that they didn't run at churchill. These were brought up time and time again in HOY arguments.

[Investorater]

Back in November, I stated that Zenyatta deserved to be the favorite, and that

it wouldn't surprise me at all if she won the Breeders Cup Classic.....\o/.....I also

said she would win on any and all surfaces this year. Might she try and win a

race on turf.....:cool:

[Igeteven]

Good hypothesis. Nevertheless, there was money to be made here.

Ex $ 18 Tri $8

:(

[Igeteven]

OOps. Ex $ 18 Tri $ 48

;) ;) ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

Great point. When I first heard talk of zenyatta maybe just coming back for a matchup in the donn or that she was coming back for the whole year, my first thoughts were rachel's connections would try and delay a match as much as possible because of the age issue. Hopefully Z stays strong until the end of the year.Age issue? The damn mare has only run 16 times?!?!?!? Rachel has already run 14 times as a 4yo. Who do you think is more beat up at this point?

The horse who has run 16 times over 6 years, or the horse who has run 14 times over 4 years?

To most observers (THIS ONE INCLUDED), Zenyatta is getting BETTER, not regressing as she gets older....

This whole "Jackson is waiting for her to age" is another absurd point.

[DRIVEWAY]

Unless Rachel retires, she will race against Zenyatta. That's the bottom line.

To think otherwise is to think that Jess Jackson is racing Rachel for absolutely no reason. That would be beyond stupid.

Last September when Jackson decided that Rachel had done enough racing for 2009, one of his main reasons to conclude her season was to freshen her up for a 4 year old racing campaign. No JCGC or breeders cup in 2009, but a 2010 season culmunating with a run in the 2010 BC at Churchill(dirt).

You should also remember that the conventional wisdom at the time was that Zenyatta was going to retire after the 2009 BC.

Rachel running in 2010 has nothing to do with Zenyatta. Where Rachel runs in 2010 appears to have everything to do with Zenyatta. She will avoid Zenyatta at all costs and as you suggest Rachel will retire before she faces Zenyatta on the track.

Jackson doesn't give any horse a rubber match. Since Rachel has already beaten Zenyattta in HOY voting there's no reason to run against her.

I expect one more race out of Rachel so she can go out a winner. The race announcement will come as late as possible to avoid any serious competition.

Jackson's Plan
Hide from your major opponents, Run a victory lap in another creampuff race and then Retire before your limitations catch up with you.

Jackson Doesn't even worry about criticsm. The Pace Advantages of the world will provide him with cover.

[Kimsus]

Age issue? The damn mare has only run 16 times?!?!?!? Rachel has already run 14 times as a 4yo. Who do you think is more beat up at this point?

The horse who has run 16 times over 6 years, or the horse who has run 14 times over 4 years?

To most observers (THIS ONE INCLUDED), Zenyatta is getting BETTER, not regressing as she gets older....

This whole "Jackson is waiting for her to age" is another absurd point.

PA,

Do you seriously expect us to read this with a straight face with your negative slant of posts regarding Zenyatta's accomplishments, even age caught up to greats like Cigar, Skip Away, Lure...ect...It is a factor, no horse has won the BC classic at age 6, not to mention it being a 6 yr female. Time caught up to Ali, Nicklaus and it does to most great horses also, the time for Rachel to meet Zenyatta was clearly yesterday when both were near the top of their games, not when one is nearing the retirement shed. Unless that is what The Anti Zenyatta well wishers are hanging their hats on so they can bask in the light she has finally lost supposing she is past her prime or not.

[Fager Fan]

PA,

Do you seriously expect us to read this with a straight face with your negative slant of posts regarding Zenyatta's accomplishments, even age caught up to greats like Cigar, Skip Away, Lure...ect...It is a factor, no horse has won the BC classic at age 6, not to mention it being a 6 yr female. Time caught up to Ali, Nicklaus and it does to most great horses also, the time for Rachel to meet Zenyatta was clearly yesterday when both were near the top of their games, not when one is nearing the retirement shed. Unless that is what The Anti Zenyatta well wishers are hanging their hats on so they can bask in the light she has finally lost supposing she is past her prime or not.

Cigar raced 30+ times, Skip Away raced 30+ times. At the rate Zenyatta's going, she's going to have to race 3 more years to race as many times as they did.

[Igeteven]

Cigar raced 30+ times, Skip Away raced 30+ times. At the rate Zenyatta's going, she's going to have to race 3 more years to race as many times as they did.

I think she will retire and go home at the end of the year, her foal will bring millions who ever buys it.


With appearance fees and showing off the horse, why should the owner race her anymore at the end of the year.

I think she is six years old, Jan 1, she turns 7, why push it.

Just an opinion.

[cj]

I think Zenyatta should get a low to mid 90 Beyer for yesterday's effort. I know I'm impressed.

[Igeteven]

I think Zenyatta should get a low to mid 90 Beyer for yesterday's effort. I know I'm impressed.

Good post :ThmbUp:

IMO, All the horse did yesterday is work out, when the others were running, she was out for a Sunday walk in the park.

She is the fastest mare alive.


just reminds me of Seattle Slew.

[joanied]

Cigar raced 30+ times, Skip Away raced 30+ times. At the rate Zenyatta's going, she's going to have to race 3 more years to race as many times as they did.

Zenyatta didn't start her race career until she was a 4 yr. old :faint:

[Igeteven]

Zenyatta didn't start her race career until she was a 4 yr. old :faint:


That's why, I HATE 2 year old races, they should be banned, the horses are still babies, their bones are not set, they still need to grow up.

Why they have them, I will never know.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

The wise guy in the other thread that was "Bridge Jumping" with his 10 K
looks like a "bone head" considering these exotics.

Um, my $10,000 that I started the year with is now $13,399, are your 'bets' returning 33.99% so far this year?

Feel free to call me a bonehead when I lose. Although I will say the betting was a bit strange in the race, can't recall ever seeing a 2nd choice as high as 15-1.

The obvious difference when you wheel a big favorite is that in many cases that favorite can win and you still lose money. I don't know if any of the exactas were paying less than $8 with Zenyatta on top yesterday, but that does happen, you 'win' the bet but lose money. At least with the $2.10 payoff you can't win and lose at the same time.

[joanied]

I think she will retire and go home at the end of the year, her foal will bring millions who ever buys it.


With appearance fees and showing off the horse, why should the owner race her anymore at the end of the year.

I think she is six years old, Jan 1, she turns 7, why push it.

Just an opinion.

Regardless of what Zenny does this year, I have no doubt they will retire her because they do want foals out of her (who wouldn't:) )...and her 'biological clock' is ticking...a good percentage of race mares have problems in the breeding shed...her best productive years are being short changed (which is one reason everyone needs to be grateful to the Moss's allowing her to race in 2010)...she'll go to the farm at the end of this year...
but they won't sell her first born...I would bet on that...they don't need the money...they would be very emotional about her first foal, and who could blame them...they'll keep that one, no doubt.

[Igeteven]

Regardless of what Zenny does this year, I have no doubt they will retire her because they do want foals out of her (who wouldn't:) )...and her 'biological clock' is ticking...a good percentage of race mares have problems in the breeding shed...her best productive years are being short changed (which is one reason everyone needs to be grateful to the Moss's allowing her to race in 2010)...she'll go to the farm at the end of this year...
but they won't sell her first born...I would bet on that...they don't need the money...they would be very emotional about her first foal, and who could blame them...they'll keep that one, no doubt.

Makes sense :)

Thanks

[bisket]

Regardless of what Zenny does this year, I have no doubt they will retire her because they do want foals out of her (who wouldn't:) )...and her 'biological clock' is ticking...a good percentage of race mares have problems in the breeding shed...her best productive years are being short changed (which is one reason everyone needs to be grateful to the Moss's allowing her to race in 2010)...she'll go to the farm at the end of this year...
but they won't sell her first born...I would bet on that...they don't need the money...they would be very emotional about her first foal, and who could blame them...they'll keep that one, no doubt.
i doubt if they sell any of them. my first two choices for stallions for her would be:candy ride and elusive quality. you have to have some nice classy speed over her stamina and speed.

[Fager Fan]

Zenyatta didn't start her race career until she was a 4 yr. old :faint:

Actually, she was three. As a Zenyatta super-duper fan, you should know this. But regardless, the point was that your point was problematic -- it's the wear and tear of racing that wears them out, not age. She is very lightly raced for her age. To compare her to Cigar or Skip Away was to point to two horses who by age 6 had twice as many races under their belts as she has.

[born2ride]

Moss's Plan
Hide from your major opponents, Run a victory lap in another creampuff race and then Retire before your limitations catch up with you.


Couldn't resist correcting the typo in your post. :)

[joanied]

That's why, I HATE 2 year old races, they should be banned, the horses are still babies, their bones are not set, they still need to grow up.

Why they have them, I will never know.

Especially with the big youngsters like Zenyatta...I shudder to think what someone else would have done with her...broke her down most likely...I give a ton of credit to her connections for having the intelligence and patience to allow her to grow (and grow, and grow, and grow:D .)

We'll never ban 2 yr old races...this topic has been tossed about many times...
IMO, the thing is...it's not so much racing them at 2, as the way they are raced at 2 (and of course, this is speaking in generalities)...first thing needs done is the purses for 2 yr old races need to be cut down drastically...the hundreds of thousands of $$ they take from the 2 yr old races could be added to the purses of some of the late year 3 yr old races, and the bulk would go to the older division races...maybe even bring back the Handicap Triple Crown, and maybe with a nice bonus for the winner, or any horse that wins 2/3rds of it...something like that...
so, a drastic cut in 2 yr old race purses... and now comes the 'rub'...no 2 yr old races beyond one mile, and to slow down race times, rules governing use of the whip...to be used only to keep a horse going straight, not to get a horse to run a fast time...in fact, as I type, maybe all 2 yr old races should be exhibitions...sort of what they do in Aiken every year...because, again, IMO, the 2 yr olds do need to race...to exclusivley train them as 2 yr old, without racing might do more harm than good because in order for bones, tendons and the enitre body structure to develope properly and with strength, they do have to run....but running them for large purses, running them at full throttle so breeders can say they were precosious (spelling?) as 2 yr olds needs to be stopped....you know the stallion ads they tout how fast they were as 2 yr olds...very bad.
And now that I mentioned it, I really think having 2 yr old exhibition races would be the way to go...the interest would still be there because everyone would want to see what 2 yr olds might turn into something really good as a 3 yr old...no doubt the handicappers would hate this...but by carding a few 2 yr old exhibition races within a daily race card at tracks across the country, we'd still get to see them, but we'd be watching youngsters develope, slowly, over the course of their 2 yr old year in races where time is of no factor and they all carry uniform light weight.

[joanied]

Actually, she was three. As a Zenyatta super-duper fan, you should know this. But regardless, the point was that your point was problematic -- it's the wear and tear of racing that wears them out, not age. She is very lightly raced for her age. To compare her to Cigar or Skip Away was to point to two horses who by age 6 had twice as many races under their belts as she has.

You are right...but she ran only 2 times as a 3 yr old...and no where did I say anything about age being a factor in 'wear and tear'.

[Igeteven]

Especially with the big youngsters like Zenyatta...I shudder to think what someone else would have done with her...broke her down most likely...I give a ton of credit to her connections for having the intelligence and patience to allow her to grow (and grow, and grow, and grow:D .)

We'll never ban 2 yr old races...this topic has been tossed about many times...
IMO, the thing is...it's not so much racing them at 2, as the way they are raced at 2 (and of course, this is speaking in generalities)...first thing needs done is the purses for 2 yr old races need to be cut down drastically...the hundreds of thousands of $$ they take from the 2 yr old races could be added to the purses of some of the late year 3 yr old races, and the bulk would go to the older division races...maybe even bring back the Handicap Triple Crown, and maybe with a nice bonus for the winner, or any horse that wins 2/3rds of it...something like that...
so, a drastic cut in 2 yr old race purses... and now comes the 'rub'...no 2 yr old races beyond one mile, and to slow down race times, rules governing use of the whip...to be used only to keep a horse going straight, not to get a horse to run a fast time...in fact, as I type, maybe all 2 yr old races should be exhibitions...sort of what they do in Aiken every year...because, again, IMO, the 2 yr olds do need to race...to exclusivley train them as 2 yr old, without racing might do more harm than good because in order for bones, tendons and the enitre body structure to develope properly and with strength, they do have to run....but running them for large purses, running them at full throttle so breeders can say they were precosious (spelling?) as 2 yr olds needs to be stopped....you know the stallion ads they tout how fast they were as 2 yr olds...very bad.
And now that I mentioned it, I really think having 2 yr old exhibition races would be the way to go...the interest would still be there because everyone would want to see what 2 yr olds might turn into something really good as a 3 yr old...no doubt the handicappers would hate this...but by carding a few 2 yr old exhibition races within a daily race card at tracks across the country, we'd still get to see them, but we'd be watching youngsters develope, slowly, over the course of their 2 yr old year in races where time is of no factor and they all carry uniform light weight.


:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[joanied]

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

:)

[Kimsus]

I think Zenyatta should get a low to mid 90 Beyer for yesterday's effort. I know I'm impressed.

If you are a beyerite I guess not, it was an easy win CJ, Zenyatta could have run faster if the competition showed up yesterday but they didn't. 3 Grade 3 winners finished behind the 2nd horse so I don't know what does that say either. Zenyatta runs to her competition, I think it's very unrealistic that Mike Smith to pump her down the lane so she can beyer 100 to make beyer people happy. It's nothing new, there is always something wrong about her wins.

[DeanT]

I think the way she wins might tie into the discussion on her being sound and happy and running maybe better than ever at age six.

Being a deep closer, with a brain she seems to run right to what she has to. When you see her get the lead she starts looking around, no stress, and having some fun.

Compare her to some scared-as-a-cat horse running out of his/her skin with his ears pinned back. He breaks on top, rolls and then is on his hands and knees at the wire. He runs a big fig, gets great headlines, then six starts later he is infirm and ready for the breeding shed. If this horse knew how to take care of himself like Z, he might run a lower number and get less press, but he might be around a hell of a lot longer than he is, and develop to be a great horse, instead of a good one who happened to run some good numbers.

[Igeteven]

I think the way she wins might tie into the discussion on her being sound and happy and running maybe better than ever at age six.

Being a deep closer, with a brain she seems to run right to what she has to. When you see her get the lead she starts looking around, no stress, and having some fun.

Compare her to some scared-as-a-cat horse running out of his/her skin with his ears pinned back. He breaks on top, rolls and then is on his hands and knees at the wire. He runs a big fig, gets great headlines, then six starts later he is infirm and ready for the breeding shed. If this horse knew how to take care of himself like Z, he might run a lower number and get less press, but he might be around a hell of a lot longer than he is, and develop to be a great horse, instead of a good one who happened to run some good numbers.

I think Mike Smith said, riding Z, is like driving a brand new Rolls Royce

[PaceAdvantage]

She is the fastest mare alive.


just reminds me of Seattle Slew.If she's the fastest mare alive, she sure hasn't shown it via the stopwatch.

To compare her to Seattle Slew is the height of ignorance. Do you even know what Seattle Slew did in his career?

Go watch his loss to Exceller, and tell me again how she reminds you of Seattle Slew. Even in defeat, Zenyatta couldn't shine Seattle Slew's shoes.

In fact, watch it right here...I defy anyone to name a horse today who could have run the race Seattle Slew runs right here:

zZFr6N2lNY4

[Greyfox]

A Great Race. Thank you for posting it PA. :ThmbUp:

[JustRalph]

You don't see races like that anymore.............

Amazing What Slew did............... :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

Wow...To break through the gate before the start, and then to run like that!!! That was AFFIRMED that he raced into the ground!! Unbelievable!!

[bisket]

i think the sadle slipped or something to that affect on affirmed.

[Stevie Belmont]

Watching her is poetry in motion. Zenyatta is a physically impressive thoroughbred. She is one of a kind.

[Igeteven]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]If she's the fastest mare alive, she sure hasn't shown it via the stopwatch.

To compare her to Seattle Slew is the height of ignorance. Do you even know what Seattle Slew did in his career?

Go watch his loss to Exceller, and tell me again how she reminds you of Seattle Slew. Even in defeat, Zenyatta couldn't shine Seattle Slew's shoes.

---

Great Video, What I meant was, when the other horses were running as fast as they could, Z was galloping.

Thanks

[PaceAdvantage]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]If she's the fastest mare alive, she sure hasn't shown it via the stopwatch.

To compare her to Seattle Slew is the height of ignorance. Do you even know what Seattle Slew did in his career?

Go watch his loss to Exceller, and tell me again how she reminds you of Seattle Slew. Even in defeat, Zenyatta couldn't shine Seattle Slew's shoes.

---

Great Video, What I meant was, when the other horses were running as fast as they could, Z was galloping.

ThanksI apologize for my tone. It was uncalled for. I just get riled up when I think people forget just how great some of the horses from not too long ago really were...

[Igeteven]

[QUOTE=Igeteven]I apologize for my tone. It was uncalled for. I just get riled up when I think people forget just how great some of the horses from not too long ago really were...

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[cj]

If you are a beyerite I guess not, it was an easy win CJ, Zenyatta could have run faster if the competition showed up yesterday but they didn't. 3 Grade 3 winners finished behind the 2nd horse so I don't know what does that say either. Zenyatta runs to her competition, I think it's very unrealistic that Mike Smith to pump her down the lane so she can beyer 100 to make beyer people happy. It's nothing new, there is always something wrong about her wins.

I wasn't knocking Zenyatta, just her competition. The fact the rest of the field couldn't crack 90 is pretty sad for and alleged G1 race. Obviously Z could have run faster.

[Pick6]

If she's the fastest mare alive, she sure hasn't shown it via the stopwatch.

To compare her to Seattle Slew is the height of ignorance. Do you even know what Seattle Slew did in his career?

Go watch his loss to Exceller, and tell me again how she reminds you of Seattle Slew. Even in defeat, Zenyatta couldn't shine Seattle Slew's shoes.

In fact, watch it right here...I defy anyone to name a horse today who could have run the race Seattle Slew runs right here:

zZFr6N2lNY4
What people fail to acknowledge is that 20 length move by Exceller took as much out of him as Slew running 1:09 and change.

Slew's greatest race was beating Affirmed in the Marlboro. Up to then his return to performing at top level was in question. He lost to Dr. Patches in a race at Meadowlands prior to the Marlboro. I wish Dr. Fager could have magically showed up for that Marlboro Cup, because I don't think Slew loses to anybody that day. Even with the slow factions.

My favorite race. Exceller proved his greatness with that win. A Euro who could win anywhere, anytime. Turf, dirt, off track, whatever. Game on.

[WinterTriangle]

I think the way she wins might tie into the discussion on her being sound and happy and running maybe better than ever at age six.

Being a deep closer, with a brain she seems to run right to what she has to. When you see her get the lead she starts looking around, no stress, and having some fun.

Compare her to some scared-as-a-cat horse running out of his/her skin with his ears pinned back. He breaks on top, rolls and then is on his hands and knees at the wire. He runs a big fig, gets great headlines, then six starts later he is infirm and ready for the breeding shed. If this horse knew how to take care of himself like Z, he might run a lower number and get less press, but he might be around a hell of a lot longer than he is, and develop to be a great horse, instead of a good one who happened to run some good numbers.

That's a good post, Dean. she has the instinct to know what she needs to do, both to win and also to take care of herself.

I imagine having a trainer that allows a horse to be great is also part of the equation. Think about how many could have *ruined* her. :eek:

[classhandicapper]

She won on the dirt two+ years before today. We all knew she could win on the dirt.

What we want to see is for her beat the kind of horses Rachel beat on the dirt last year. Or beat Rachel herself.

You know...Grade 1 Male winners over the dirt.

I claim foul.

Rachel never beat Grade 1 older males.

She beat a Grade 1 field made up of Grade 3 and Grade 2 older males. The wins against 3YO males were excellent, but some people understand that fillies develop sooner than colts and can compete easier in spring in summer against 3YO colts.

The only horse to actually beat Grade 1 older males last year was Zenyatta, but you guys just can't get past the fact that Grade 1 turfers and synthetic horses are also Grade 1 horses.

[classhandicapper]

Around 6 to 6.5 tops is my guess.

Don't tell me you think she would have won by 15.

That's the thing about closers vs/ front runners.

Front runners go out and set their own pace. If they are dominant, they will often control a lively pace that's well within their own range, but way too fast for their inferior competition. So they torch the other horses who then collapse and draw off to massive wins in fast time. Then everyone goes bonkers.

Closers are forced prompt the pace of the inferior horses in front of them.

If they are truly superior, they win anyway. But the pace in front of them does not allow them to maximize either either their winning margin or final time speed.

This is one of the truly difficult aspects of handicapping (at least for me) to measure.

Until a horse is given a pace in front it that is more or less equal to it's own ability, it will continue to win (or sometimes run second if the pace was extremely slow or the trip terrible) without revealing how fast it is actually capable of running. That goes double on turf and synthetic.

What happens in real life is that you can't tell what the breaking point is until they get tested. Some crack quickly and others keep winning and running faster as they get tested because they have a lot in stamina and ability in reserve.

I think we already know that Zenyatta has massive reserves because her two fastest races came in both her Breeder's Cup races. It looked to me that we still hadn't hit bottom.

I think all the slow races and narrow winning margins in between are more or less irrelevant as long as she continues to train well etc...

This phenomenon is why so many people have been so wrong about her for so long. They are looking at narrow winning margins and slow times and not understanding how they are irrelevant in her case because she's a deep closer overcoming very inferior paces.

Can she run a 115 Beyer with a real Grade 1 older male pace in front of her?

She might be able to or she might crack.

I think she definitely could run a 115 on synthetic on the very rare occasion that she got a really fast pace, but IMO we simply still don't know enough about her dirt abilities. She never ran at any point in the race the other day. It was a walk in the park.

[classhandicapper]

If she's the fastest mare alive, she sure hasn't shown it via the stopwatch.

To compare her to Seattle Slew is the height of ignorance. Do you even know what Seattle Slew did in his career?

Go watch his loss to Exceller, and tell me again how she reminds you of Seattle Slew. Even in defeat, Zenyatta couldn't shine Seattle Slew's shoes.

In fact, watch it right here...I defy anyone to name a horse today who could have run the race Seattle Slew runs right here:

zZFr6N2lNY4


I agree. I think it's a simple fact that one of the greatest mares of all time is not going to be as good as one of the greatest colts of all times. But I don't think that says anything about where she ranks among other fillies.

[classhandicapper]

I think Zenyatta should get a low to mid 90 Beyer for yesterday's effort. I know I'm impressed.

I agree.

The problem is that some people actually think that slow figure is relevant when she's already put up much faster figures when given the opportunity to do so. Plus she still hadn't hit bottom. So we don't know how fast she can run yet.

When she finally gets a Grade 1 pace in front of her, it will either reveal that she can put up a 115 or higher (win or lose because horses like that might run even faster), or she will make a big run and finally hit bottom, crack, hang, and put up something just below her fastest figures.

We simply don't know. But with her style and already proven record of very deep reserves, I think we can say with 100% confidence that her figure in the AB was irrelevent as a measure of her ability.

[tzipi]

Exceller proved his greatness with that win. A Euro who could win anywhere, anytime. Turf, dirt, off track, whatever. Game on.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Fager Fan]

The only horse to actually beat Grade 1 older males last year was Zenyatta, but you guys just can't get past the fact that Grade 1 turfers and synthetic horses are also Grade 1 horses.

No, we know they're G1 horses -- on turf. She didn't beat them on their preferred surface, but instead beat them on her preferred surface.

I might point out that Gio's next performance on synth didn't exactly flatter Zenyatta.

[bisket]

I think the way she wins might tie into the discussion on her being sound and happy and running maybe better than ever at age six.

Being a deep closer, with a brain she seems to run right to what she has to. When you see her get the lead she starts looking around, no stress, and having some fun.

Compare her to some scared-as-a-cat horse running out of his/her skin with his ears pinned back. He breaks on top, rolls and then is on his hands and knees at the wire. He runs a big fig, gets great headlines, then six starts later he is infirm and ready for the breeding shed. If this horse knew how to take care of himself like Z, he might run a lower number and get less press, but he might be around a hell of a lot longer than he is, and develop to be a great horse, instead of a good one who happened to run some good numbers.
you just described just about every "great" horse to come along in recent years with the scared as a cat referance. its nice to here someone explain "class" in the rightful manner that it was described prior to the 1980's with your referance to Z. i hate to say it, but thats the main reason we have poly track: to put the scaredy cats back in the sprint division where they belong!!!! hopefully a market will develope for horses that have the class to race longer than one or two years at the top levels of the sport. heck i'd settle for some that could make 1/2 way through their 3 year old season. :bang:

[classhandicapper]

No, we know they're G1 horses -- on turf. She didn't beat them on their preferred surface, but instead beat them on her preferred surface.

I might point out that Gio's next performance on synth didn't exactly flatter Zenyatta.

I understand your point, but we know that a lot of turfers run well on synthetic (especially the Pro Ride at SA) and we can see from the figures that 2nd and 3rd place finishers fired close to their best shots that day.

[bisket]

it was when zen came up the rail in the classic that she made a complete believer of me. lots of horses won't go between other horses inside, and for a horse to show this capability with her running style. it put her in a category of the very few, when it comes to great thoroughbreds. most closers will only run outside horses. to be capable of reducing the amount of ground she travels with her acceleration ability is what makes her so good. i still believe to this day if curlin was capable of going through the inside he would have won that classic. it was this weakness that also cost him the derby in my opinion. i know curlin was bothered, but so were many great derby winners. zen is undefeated because she has an ability to accelerate that very few thoroughbreds have displayed, and the ability to do whatever it takes to get to the front. that is the bottom line.

[cpitt84]

Can she run a 115 Beyer with a real Grade 1 older male pace in front of her?
.

She's as big and strong as almost any male so I dont see why not.

I can't see her being beat.

[Igeteven]

She's as big and strong as almost any male so I dont see why not.

I can't see her being beat.

:) :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

I claim foul.

Rachel never beat Grade 1 older males.Technically, there were three Grade 1 winning older males in the Woodward. I'll throw out Da' Tara for obvious reasons.

Bullsbay had just won the Whitney over Macho Again and Commentator. Macho Again had recently won the Stephen Foster over Einstein. Asiatic Boy also beat Einstein when finishing second in the Stephen Foster.

How were those two not Grade 1 older males? Macho Again was a winner of $1.6M coming into the Woodward.

It's a Bird was a winner of over $1M, although I'm not sure if he ever won a G1. Asiatic Boy a winner over over $3M when he finished 2nd to Curlin in the Dubai World Cup.

Past the Point finished 2nd to Curlin in the 2009 Woodward.

You are really selling that Woodward field short...

[bisket]

Technically, there were three Grade 1 winning older males in the Woodward. I'll throw out Da' Tara for obvious reasons.

Bullsbay had just won the Whitney over Macho Again and Commentator. Macho Again had recently won the Stephen Foster over Einstein. Asiatic Boy also beat Einstein when finishing second in the Stephen Foster.

How were those two not Grade 1 older males? Macho Again was a winner of $1.6M coming into the Woodward.

It's a Bird was a winner of over $1M, although I'm not sure if he ever won a G1. Asiatic Boy a winner over over $3M when he finished 2nd to Curlin in the Dubai World Cup.

Past the Point finished 2nd to Curlin in the 2009 Woodward.

You are really selling that Woodward field short...
i think you made his point for him when you said technically ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

i think you made his point for him when you said technically ;)Not when you read beyond the first line. I went on to make quite the strong point based on earnings and who they beat recently.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Einstein used as one of the horses to demonstrate what a tough field Zenyatta beat in the BC Classic?

[bisket]

i think the two fields were comparable. i've said so the past few days. zen gets extra credit for the classic distance though imop. i think for a three year old filly rachel proved to be a great horse, but she won hoy more because zen's connections just sold themselves short in my opinion. i just think the moss' were trying to assist the tracks in california in staying afloat, and did their horse a disservice. hopefully by the end of this year this wil be resolved, but i think this subject may be an open wound for fans of the game for many years :D . i can see 10 years from now on forums like this an argument erupting over this; just like the past year or so :D

[joanied]

Technically, there were three Grade 1 winning older males in the Woodward. I'll throw out Da' Tara for obvious reasons.

Bullsbay had just won the Whitney over Macho Again and Commentator. Macho Again had recently won the Stephen Foster over Einstein. Asiatic Boy also beat Einstein when finishing second in the Stephen Foster.

How were those two not Grade 1 older males? Macho Again was a winner of $1.6M coming into the Woodward.

It's a Bird was a winner of over $1M, although I'm not sure if he ever won a G1. Asiatic Boy a winner over over $3M when he finished 2nd to Curlin in the Dubai World Cup.

Past the Point finished 2nd to Curlin in the 2009 Woodward.


You are really selling that Woodward field short...

Pace, scratch the word 'technically' and you have a good post to proove that Rachel's Woodward was a very good field...as good as any last year, and she beat them while obviously beginning to tail off from a hard campaign.
:)

[PaceAdvantage]

For the record, I used the word "technically" only because this wins the argument on all counts. Technically, I win the argument, because obviously there were older horses in the Woodward who had won Grade 1 races.

I also win the argument on merit because I go on to explain why those horses should not just be TECHNICALLY considered Grade 1 older males. They beat horses of substance to earn that title as well.

This is what I am arguing against:

I claim foul.

Rachel never beat Grade 1 older males.

[born2ride]

I claim foul.

Rachel never beat Grade 1 older males.

She beat a Grade 1 field made up of Grade 3 and Grade 2 older males. The wins against 3YO males were excellent, but some people understand that fillies develop sooner than colts and can compete easier in spring in summer against 3YO colts.

The only horse to actually beat Grade 1 older males last year was Zenyatta, but guys just can't get past the fact that Grade 1 turfers and synthetic horses are also Grade 1 horses.

I guess you can't get past the fact that Rachel beat two older males who won G1s last year and she beat them on their preferred surface. Zen beat five older males who won G1s last year, none on their preferred surface, and age wise only one was older.

fillies compete easier in spring and summer? Not sure what you mean by his, but I imagine it's your way of excusing away Rachel winning the Preakness and Haskell as some kind of excuse that the colts weren't in top form - which is ridiculous.

[joanied]

For the record, I used the word "technically" only because this wins the argument on all counts. Technically, I win the argument, because obviously there were older horses in the Woodward who had won Grade 1 races.

I also win the argument on merit because I go on to explain why those horses should not just be TECHNICALLY considered Grade 1 older males. They beat horses of substance to earn that title as well.

This is what I am arguing against:

:faint: Ah-ha...Ok, then...very good:ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

I agree.

The problem is that some people actually think that slow figure is relevant when she's already put up much faster figures when given the opportunity to do so. Plus she still hadn't hit bottom. So we don't know how fast she can run yet.

When she finally gets a Grade 1 pace in front of her, it will either reveal that she can put up a 115 or higher (win or lose because horses like that might run even faster), or she will make a big run and finally hit bottom, crack, hang, and put up something just below her fastest figures.

We simply don't know. But with her style and already proven record of very deep reserves, I think we can say with 100% confidence that her figure in the AB was irrelevent as a measure of her ability. I think that when cj posted Zenyatta's probable speed figure for her race friday, and he added that he was impressed, he was being facetious. He was telling us that her effort was less than impressive, and not worthy of compliments. My apologies if I read it wrong...

[RXB]

Technically, there were three Grade 1 winning older males in the Woodward. I'll throw out Da' Tara for obvious reasons.

Bullsbay had just won the Whitney over Macho Again and Commentator. Macho Again had recently won the Stephen Foster over Einstein. Asiatic Boy also beat Einstein when finishing second in the Stephen Foster.

How were those two not Grade 1 older males? Macho Again was a winner of $1.6M coming into the Woodward.

It's a Bird was a winner of over $1M, although I'm not sure if he ever won a G1. Asiatic Boy a winner over over $3M when he finished 2nd to Curlin in the Dubai World Cup.

Past the Point finished 2nd to Curlin in the 2009 Woodward.

You are really selling that Woodward field short...

Bullsbay was losing repeatedly against sub-Grade 1 competition; then suddenly shows up at Saratoga and wins the Whitney. Macho Again won the Foster with a whopping 100 Beyer. Past The Point ran one good race in his life. Asiatic Boy piled up most of that money by winning the UAE Derby (wa-hoo) and then running second--beaten almost eight lengths-- in the World Cup.

The Jockey Club Gold Cup showed the relative abilities of the older dirt males last year.

Someone had to win those Grade 1 races last year. Doesn't change the fact that they were slow affairs featuring horses that wouldn't have won Grade 1's in just about any other year. No exaggeration, that was the worst bunch of older dirt males I've seen, even worse than the '94 group which was not much.

[bisket]

Bullsbay was losing repeatedly against sub-Grade 1 competition; then suddenly shows up at Saratoga and wins the Whitney. Macho Again won the Foster with a whopping 100 Beyer. Past The Point ran one good race in his life. Asiatic Boy piled up most of that money by winning the UAE Derby (wa-hoo) and then running second--beaten almost eight lengths-- in the World Cup.

The Jockey Club Gold Cup showed the relative abilities of the older dirt males last year.

Someone had to win those Grade 1 races last year. Doesn't change the fact that they were slow affairs featuring horses that wouldn't have won Grade 1's in just about any other year. No exaggeration, that was the worst bunch of older dirt males I've seen, even worse than the '94 group which was not much.
opportunity knocked and rachel answered

[RXB]

opportunity knocked and rachel answered

Notwithstanding the general weakness of those older males, I'm hard pressed to think of another 3YO filly in the past 20 years that I think would've won that race.

[bisket]

Notwithstanding the general weakness of those older males, I'm hard pressed to think of another 3YO filly in the past 20 years that I think would've won that race.
i agree, although there was a 5 year old mare running last year that would have beaten that group also.

[Fager Fan]

Notwithstanding the general weakness of those older males, I'm hard pressed to think of another 3YO filly in the past 20 years that I think would've won that race.

If you think as highly of Big Brown as I do, and appreciate how difficult the Derby is, I'd say Eight Belles just might've been on the same talent level as Rachel.

[RXB]

I can't rank Eight Belles on the same level as Blushing KD or Serena's Song, never mind RA. Nice filly but I've seen better.

[cj]

I really think that there is something going on with the Beyers that is making it look like top class horses are getting slower over time. I can't put my finger on it yet, but I suspect it has to do with the depleted claiming classes at the top tier tracks. A vast majority of G1s are run in NY and SoCal, but at the same time those tracks claiming horses are terrible due to low purses.

I just find it hard to believe that are graded stakes horses are this bad for the last several years. Maybe they have remained stagnant with all the exports to the sheik (most of which disappear or accomplish little), but this slowing seems odd to me. It could just as easily be something with the methodology as it is the decline of thoroughbreds, or maybe a mix of both. Either way, it is something I plan to spend some time figuring out.

[PaceAdvantage]

I just find it hard to believe that are graded stakes horses are this bad for the last several years. Maybe they have remained stagnant with all the exports to the sheik (most of which disappear or accomplish little), but this slowing seems odd to me. It could just as easily be something with the methodology as it is the decline of thoroughbreds, or maybe a mix of both. Either way, it is something I plan to spend some time figuring out.Anecdotally, I had been thinking something similar. It amazes me how often the figures for Grade 1 stakes races would always seem to fall in the same narrow range the last couple of years. You could basically know nothing about speed figure making and count on the figure coming back somewhere between 109-112-113. That's the impression I was getting anyway, and I found it weird myself.

[Cratos]

Notwithstanding the general weakness of those older males, I'm hard pressed to think of another 3YO filly in the past 20 years that I think would've won that race.

Dance Smartly - 1992 and if you go back a little further you will have Winning Colors and Genuine Risk.

[Cratos]

Anecdotally, I had been thinking something similar. It amazes me how often the figures for Grade 1 stakes races would always seem to fall in the same narrow range the last couple of years. You could basically know nothing about speed figure making and count on the figure coming back somewhere between 109-112-113. That's the impression I was getting anyway, and I found it weird myself.

There are seven general classes of horses in thoroughbred racing: Claiming-Low, Claiming-Middle, Claiming High, Allowance-Low, Allowance-High, non-Graded Stakes, and Graded Stakes.

These seven groups can be pared down to specific levels, but it doesn’t change the general groupings.

Therefore if we assume that each group has a normal distribution for its speed data, we will see that the “mean of the mean,” the standard deviation for this speed data gets smaller as class gets better and hence the derivative from that data, the speed figure will be clustered tighter at the top graded level and more spread out at the lower claiming level.

Also the variance will follow the same trend because it is just the square of the standard deviation.

[cj's dad]

Being at OP this past weekend and witnessing Z run was magical.

I am pretty sure that she has no idea of the quality or the earnings or the Graded race status of those she faced but her performance was memorable. She coasted around the track, picked it up when asked and cruised home.

Her demeanor during the post-parade and after the race were something to behold.

I do not normally get that excited about a race horses on track performance or demeanor, but she is absolutely aware of her surroundings and somehow seems to know that she is the center of attention and that it is all about her.

She is, by the way, HUGE!! and she is quite possibly the most impressive race hirse I have ever seen in person.

I feel priveledged to have seen her !!

[PaceAdvantage]

Her demeanor during the post-parade and after the race were something to behold.

I do not normally get that excited about a race horses on track performance or demeanor, but she is absolutely aware of her surroundings and somehow seems to know that she is the center of attention and that it is all about her.

She is, by the way, HUGE!! and she is quite possibly the most impressive race hirse I have ever seen in person.

I feel priveledged to have seen her !!She is indeed quite the one-of-a-kind character pre-race...I hope to see her in person too this year...

[Igeteven]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv49V2RzgHw


Watch the workout on youtube

Super horse in action


Enjoy

[RXB]

Dance Smartly - 1992 and if you go back a little further you will have Winning Colors and Genuine Risk.

I did say the last 20 years, so no Winning Colors or Genuine Risk. Dance Smartly, perhaps. (1991, BTW, not 1992.) And now that I think about it a bit more, Go For Wand is still just within the last 20 years.

[Greyfox]

Being at OP this past weekend and witnessing Z run was magical.

I am pretty sure that she has no idea of the quality or the earnings or the Graded race status of those she faced but her performance was memorable. She coasted around the track, picked it up when asked and cruised home.

Her d
emeanor during the post-parade and after the race were something to behold.

I do not normally get that excited about a race horses on track performance or demeanor, but she is absolutely aware of her surroundings and somehow seems to know that she is the center of attention and that it is all about her.

She is, by the way, HUGE!! and she is quite possibly the most impressive race hirse I have ever seen in person.

I feel priveledged to have seen her !!

Good commentary cj's dad. Obviously Z's a great horse.
I have never seen Zenyatta in person.
I have bet against her every time from 6 wins on.
If she retires, I will never get my money back.
Will I bet she loses next time out?
You betcha.
One of these days.....
Every time she runs the odds on the other ones shoot sky high.
I'll take that chance.

[Igeteven]

Good commentary cj's dad. Obviously Z's a great horse.
I have never seen Zenyatta in person.
I have bet against her every time from 6 wins on.
If she retires, I will never get my money back.
Will I bet she loses next time out?
You betcha.
One of these days.....
Every time she runs the odds on the other ones shoot sky high.
I'll take that chance.


Play supers, you would win

[WinterTriangle]

she is absolutely aware of her surroundings and somehow seems to know that she is the center of attention and that it is all about her.

Yes, it's uncanny. I think she is also aware of exactly what she has to do in a race and how much.

I thought a comment I read: "mike never let her loose" was the understatement of the century. I get the feeling she has never even let herself loose.:D


BTW, on pure looks, I thought Custom For Carlos was one of the most good looking horses I saw this weekend.

[chickenhead]

Being at OP this past weekend and witnessing Z run was magical.

I am pretty sure that she has no idea of the quality or the earnings or the Graded race status of those she faced but her performance was memorable. She coasted around the track, picked it up when asked and cruised home.

Her demeanor during the post-parade and after the race were something to behold.

I do not normally get that excited about a race horses on track performance or demeanor, but she is absolutely aware of her surroundings and somehow seems to know that she is the center of attention and that it is all about her.

She is, by the way, HUGE!! and she is quite possibly the most impressive race hirse I have ever seen in person.

I feel priveledged to have seen her !!

I think this is a large reason why she has such vocal fans who really have a kind of emotional attachment to her. Like you I am not one to really get much from looking at a horse, but Zenyatta in that regard is pretty different. There isn't an ounce of "dumb beast" to her. You probably described it as well as can be, she definitely has the star quality, oodles of it. (she may be just the most conceited, neurotic horse ever, but it makes for a good show)

Worth seeing in person if you're a horse racing fan.

[DeanT]

That and her racing style I think. Casual fans, or casual racewatchers love come from behinders. You watch her lose contact with the field, then watch her mow them down. It is kind of throwback. Most good horses have some kind of speed, and watching say the Woodward, which was a huge balls-out performance, does not seem to compare to a closing win for many fans.

imo.

[breezing]

i would also add that part of her appeal is her accessability - they welcome you to come see her, to scratch and pet her, to feed her carrots, to pose and have your picture taken with her. thankfully she's not the type to try and take some skin out of you as this young girl can attest. http://www.youtube.com/user/jonshfs05#p/a/u/0/E5zHsQiRDFI
video also shows her coming back to HP from Hot Springs.

[PaceAdvantage]

I really do want to love Zenyatta too...still far too many asterisks next to her name for my liking. Hopefully, this is the year she wins me over.

[Igeteven]

I really do want to love Zenyatta too...still far too many asterisks next to her name for my liking. Hopefully, this is the year she wins me over.

she won me over, like a bunch of others people.


As the old Army sign says, We want you Now.

[joanied]

Being at OP this past weekend and witnessing Z run was magical.

I am pretty sure that she has no idea of the quality or the earnings or the Graded race status of those she faced but her performance was memorable. She coasted around the track, picked it up when asked and cruised home.

Her demeanor during the post-parade and after the race were something to behold.

I do not normally get that excited about a race horses on track performance or demeanor, but she is absolutely aware of her surroundings and somehow seems to know that she is the center of attention and that it is all about her.

She is, by the way, HUGE!! and she is quite possibly the most impressive race hirse I have ever seen in person.

I feel priveledged to have seen her !!

Oh, cj's dad...this post kinda got me choked up....one reason I wanted to be there was to meet you...we coulda shared goosebumps;) ...

if folks would put aside her race record, times, beyers and all that...and just look at her...just let your eyes behold the absolute beauty of this mare, the grace and poise...let yourself be swept away by the grandure she evokes...I can't imagine anyone not falling head over heels in love with her.
Like all of us, I've seen so many of the really good ones, some of the great ones, but this mare has something so special about her...her kindness, her intelligence, her stature and her dancing...she is truly one of a kind...and she knows it. Other than her race record, it's all these things that set her aside from all others...she takes your breath away, she shines, she is quality and she is love.

Thanks for a wonderful post, cj's dad...I am very happy that you got to see her, and I'm happy you shared your feelings about what you were witness to.

[Pick6]

IMO the way to beat Zenyatta is to get a rabbit to set VERY fast fractions.

2008 Vanity, 1/2 mile in 46.16. Zenyatta obviously won, but it was the only race where another horse was actually gaining on her at the end. Probably her least impressive performance.

This tactic might work for a stalker, but probably not for Rachel Alexandra.

[Nikki1997]

IMO the way to beat Zenyatta is to get a rabbit to set VERY fast fractions.

2008 Vanity, 1/2 mile in 46.16. Zenyatta obviously won, but it was the only race where another horse was actually gaining on her at the end. Probably her least impressive performance.

This tactic might work for a stalker, but probably not for Rachel Alexandra.

The 2008 Vanity was the first time Z ran a race at 1 1/8th miles. I think the extra 1/16th caught her a bit by surprise. The Distaff was the second time she ran 1 1/8th miles and she didn't hesitate.

[Pick6]

Perhaps. But I lend more credence to the fast fractions of the 2008 Vanity more than anything else. I don't think Zenyatta has a lot of endurance in her, i.e. run all out for a distance of ground. She appears to have that great ability to run a leisurely pace and let out that huge burst for a 1/16 to break away from the field. My guess is that she expended some energy earlier in that race than the others, which caused her to lose something at the end.

All that being said, I am sure she is a better runner now than in '08. The extra 1/8 certainly did not hurt her in the BC Classic.

[miesque]

The 2008 Vanity was the first time Z ran a race at 1 1/8th miles. I think the extra 1/16th caught her a bit by surprise. The Distaff was the second time she ran 1 1/8th miles and she didn't hesitate.

Also keep in mind that Zenyatta was not as focused and professional in the 2008 Vanity as we have become accustomed to seeing (granted she is a lot more experienced now). I was in the paddock before that race and her behavior was not exactly stellar, I remember walking out of the paddock not feeling as confident about her winning that particular race.

[Nikki1997]

Perhaps. But I lend more credence to the fast fractions of the 2008 Vanity more than anything else. I don't think Zenyatta has a lot of endurance in her, i.e. run all out for a distance of ground. She appears to have that great ability to run a leisurely pace and let out that huge burst for a 1/16 to break away from the field. My guess is that she expended some energy earlier in that race than the others, which caused her to lose something at the end.

All that being said, I am sure she is a better runner now than in '08. The extra 1/8 certainly did not hurt her in the BC Classic.

We shall see, as they say. :)