Gomez / Espinoza have words

[statepierback]

NBC reported Gomez went after Victor after the Derby at the scales. I wonder what was said?

[Robert Goren]

Is there anyone out there who can lip read spanish?;)

[TJDave]

Espinoza stiffed him twice. :lol:

I'll bet they have more than 'words'.

[Greyfox]

He said: "Hi Vic, how are your wife and kids."

[Buckeye]

They're both lucky Julie Krone wasn't there to kick both of their asses! Ask Bravo about that.

[tzipi]

They're both lucky Julie Krone wasn't there to kick both of their asses! Ask Bravo about that.

or ask Nick Santagata. :D

[statepierback]

Victor is getting blasted on HRTV by Laffit III.

[BluegrassProf]

...blasted on HRTV by Laffit III.It's because he's a jackass. With those HRTV blinkers, he simply can't help himself.

So sad.

[Run Nicholas Run]

or ask Nick Santagata. :D

Elaborate please.

[GregReinhart]

Victor is getting blasted on HRTV by Laffit III.

As he should be. I understand "race riding" and not wanting to give up your position, but Gomez was there on the inside the entire time and Espinoza just crashed him into the rail.

[Spendabuck85]

Excerpt from drf.com
"I was inside him, and he came over," Gomez said, referring to Espinoza. "He was out of horse."

Who's Up faded to finish ninth in the field of 10.

Espinoza maintained that Gomez should not have been there.

"When we got to the turn, it got tighter and tighter," Espinoza said. "It was one of those things. He [Espinoza said, referring to Gomez] took a shot. It was one of those situations where there was not enough room in there."

According to other jockeys in the room after the race, Gomez went after Espinoza, and though they pushed and loud, unprintable words were exchanged, they were separated before any punches could be thrown. One rider, who asked not to be identified, was asked who won.

"The stewards," he cracked.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/111923.html

[toetoe]

It kinda looked like the first turn of the Kentucky Derby. Things tighten up, and you don't even have to try, to squeeze someone against the rail. It was so subtle, it took several replays for me to see contact.

A better question for GGom to ask might be: "How did I let my mount get down to the rail in a big mediocre field of which he was apparently much the best ?"

[Tom]

LAL seems to find trouble.

[johnhannibalsmith]

yes, yes, yes, and yes.

[tzipi]

Elaborate please.

Julie punched him out after a race onetime. Don't know much about the whole details of what happened during the race.

[Buckeye]

I don't know about using the word apparent-- and sure the 7 had trouble-- but nine and three quarter lengths worth of trouble?

He'll get the chance to redeem himself May 1st, with no fisticuffs please.

In a six horse field, it's very doubtful anybody "lost" due to trouble.

[statepierback]

Baffert is quoted as being disappointed in Gomez's ride. "He's a better rider than that".

[Mineshaft]

It kinda looked like the first turn of the Kentucky Derby. Things tighten up, and you don't even have to try, to squeeze someone against the rail. It was so subtle, it took several replays for me to see contact.

A better question for GGom to ask might be: "How did I let my mount get down to the rail in a big mediocre field of which he was apparently much the best ?"




Exactly right

[Buckeye]

What did Gomez do wrong? He put the horse in a drafting position and then the horse wouldn't push his way through.

[Mineshaft]

What did Gomez do wrong? He put the horse in a drafting position and then the horse wouldn't push his way through.




tried to squeeze thru and there was no room.

[statepierback]

BB implied Gomez should never have been in that position.

[statepierback]

Victor played the safety card on HRTV during a post race interview.

[Rackon]

Put the fastest horse in the field down on the rail behind marginal foes, who were sure to tire - especially after being squeezed at the start and being \having to take back in the first turn...


How about keeping the horse clear and out of trouble so he can make his move, even if that means traveling a bit wide. Lucky has tactical speed and can accelerate and deccelerate, come back again - he's not a one dimensional runner and he's obviously fast and dead game.

As for the margin - Gomez had to check his horse hard, losing lengths upon lengths, restart him...most horses never re-rally after that kind of snafu - Espinoza darn near put L@L in the rail and it's lucky there weren't more problems. For the horse to refire and get up to be third in that company is remarkable.

Unless Lucky is a horse that won't come off the rail, I don't think this was a good ride by Gomez.

[Buckeye]

squeeze through what? he was already way behind. Like I said, he gets another chance on May 1.

[toetoe]

I don't know about using the word apparent-- and sure the 7 had trouble-- but nine and three quarter lengths worth of trouble?

He'll get the chance to redeem himself May 1st, with no fisticuffs please.

In a six horse field, it's very doubtful anybody "lost" due to trouble.



Maybe putative would better favor. I only meant that before the race, :7: -hoss was seemingly lying over this field, and what with his natural advantages and his not needing the winner's share, a chancy rail trip should be the very last thing to seek.

Also glad that BBaff is not getting involved. He and VEsp have done good work together.

[Relwob Owner]

squeeze through what? he was already way behind. Like I said, he gets another chance on May 1.



If he had traffic issues today, imagine what is going to happen to him in the Derby....like someone said earlier(Tom?), he does seem to find trouble.....

[Buckeye]

I don't think putative is a word but I could be wrong.

[fmolf]

A bad ride by gomez...he left too much to racing luck and it went against him today...nobody likes sour grapes...he has two choices down on the rail...bull through or swing out wide....he di neither so shut up and take responsibility for putting the fastest horse in the race in the worst possible position!

[Mineshaft]

squeeze through what? he was already way behind. Like I said, he gets another chance on May 1.






squeeze thru between a horse and the rail.


did you watch the race?

[Buckeye]

If he had traffic issues today, imagine what is going to happen to him in the Derby....like someone said earlier(Tom?), he does seem to find trouble.....

well, if that's true, then the Derby has plenty of trouble waiting for him! Point being, you figure it out. (Only out of shear Charity) I'll do it for you: think the Wood Memorial six horse field provided trouble for this horse? Magnify that by say 10,000 times more in the Derby.

[Relwob Owner]

well, if that's true, then the Derby has plenty of trouble waiting for him! Point being, you figure it out. (Only out of shear Charity), I'll do it for you: think the Wood Memorial six horse field provided trouble for this horse? Magnify that by say 10,000 times more in the Derby.


I am confused....are you taking about the Wood or the SA Derby? Didnt you agree with me? Confused.....

[toetoe]

... marginal foes, who were sure to tire ... to be third in that company is remarkable.





The whole field was marginal, or just the speedballs ? I'm getting a headache. ;)

[Trotman]

Baffert said Gomez should never have been in that position, then fine Baffert you ride the horse, just another excuse for the owners, Baffert loves his name in the headlines. There are many trainers out there that could do as well if not better than him so IMO he should thank the good lord his owners believe his BS.

[toetoe]

I don't think putative is a word but I could be wrong.



It's a place I've been put at. :rolleyes:

[bisket]

baffert stated before the race in many articles that lucky was in the race to prepare for the derby. in as many words baffert was saying its a workout. anyone that knows baffert's tendencies knows his derby horse isn't in the sa derby to win in an all out effort. i'm sure baffert was hoping for an outside trip without incident, and a nice run passing horses in the stretch. gomez running up the inside wasn't the plan at all. so i'm sure gomez in deep doo doo with baffert and pegram. i couldn't understand what gomez was doing myself. :rolleyes: hopefully lucky come out of the race without any cuts or bruises.

[toetoe]

In a six horse field, it's very doubtful anybody "lost" due to trouble.



All ten started, I think ... :confused:.

[toetoe]

I love both Gomez and Espinoza.



No, sorry; I can't marry either one. :blush: .

[Fager Fan]

Baffert said Gomez should never have been in that position, then fine Baffert you ride the horse, just another excuse for the owners, Baffert loves his name in the headlines. There are many trainers out there that could do as well if not better than him so IMO he should thank the good lord his owners believe his BS.

I don't think it was BS but instead an accurate assessment of what happened. As someone put it earlier, if you choose to go in that tight of hole, then plan to bull your way through. I'm not sure if it was the horse or the rider who decided to suddenly back out, but Gomez should take the blame for the decision. He could've gone outside, and he should've.

[Greyfox]

My money was all over # 7 "Lucky."
I thought he could finish no worse than second in that field.
The view from the "blimp" seemed to show that he had room to go through.
He either didn't or the horse wouldn't go through the space available.
Any way you carve it though, even without trouble, I don't think that he would have beaten # 4 Sidney today. But second should have been a lock for sure.

[Hanover1]

Baffert said Gomez should never have been in that position, then fine Baffert you ride the horse, just another excuse for the owners, Baffert loves his name in the headlines. There are many trainers out there that could do as well if not better than him so IMO he should thank the good lord his owners believe his BS.
It has been proven that a good horse will make you look good, however BB has a stellar record behind him, and is very popular with the fans. "Just another excuse for the owners" is shallow imo, considering the long relationship BB has had with Pegram, and the type of people they are. No excuses were offered, for that matter. It was a lousy ride, and everybody that watched it saw it that way as well. He placed the horse in tight quarters, where a cleaner trip, while perhaps not changing the outcome, would have been a plus for the horse, rather than another opportunity to apply the brakes, for the second time, during the trip.....slamming Mr Baffert is not an on the mark reflection of the running of that race.

[bisket]

sa has a big inside bias this year. i was hoping skipshot would draw inside because i thought for sure if he got in the 1 path he would have ran the race sidney ran :bang: i don't think skipshot would have been 25-1 with an inside post, but i would have made some cake on that race..... maybe :bang: i didn't think lucky would finish out of the money, but was hoping for third though.

[GregReinhart]

An angry Gomez went after Espinoza, who rode Who's Up, near the scales where the riders weigh out after races. Gomez landed punches before they were separated.

"That's between me and him," Gomez said.

He said Espinoza was exacting revenge for an incident between them in a race earlier in the week. He claimed Espinoza returned to the jockeys' room and said, "I told you I'd get you." Espinoza denied making the comment.

"I understand he's angry because he's riding the favorite and he got beat," said Espinoza, who finished ninth. "It was a really tight spot and the turn is getting closer and closer. There's not enough room to be in there. I'm trying to help him out as much as I can."

Baffert was in the saddling area to oversee his three entries in another stakes race when Espinoza walked by. "Are you trying to kill my jockey?" he said.

Baffert's wife, Jill, then lit into Espinoza, asking why he tried to unseat Gomez. Espinoza repeatedly denied any wrongdoing as she continued her rant while her husband and fans watched.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gdhj03H7jzhZKmeBxIOrrqQjry_AD9ERTF2G0

[Run Nicholas Run]

Julie punched him out after a race onetime. Don't know much about the whole details of what happened during the race.

I know of the julie / bravo incident in '89 when bravo
was still a bug , but never heard of her v. nicky.

[Relwob Owner]

Baffert said Gomez should never have been in that position, then fine Baffert you ride the horse, just another excuse for the owners, Baffert loves his name in the headlines. There are many trainers out there that could do as well if not better than him so IMO he should thank the good lord his owners believe his BS.


BS? I would take his BS any day of the week as an owner....huge earnings, Triple Crown wins, Breeders Cup wins, Champion horses and hardly any blown tests.....I wish every trainer was like him.....

[Lasix67]

Great ride by Talamo...

[Relwob Owner]

Great ride by Talamo...


Good point....nice to see him win this and have a Derby shot after last year's disappointment

[bisket]

Great ride by Talamo...
yup! put his horse in the best going, and kept him there the whole race. i still bit on skipshot, but was 2nd guessing myself afterwards. i was just hoping that something might happen with sidney at the start, and maybe skipshot could clear the field by the first turn and get the inside. i just thought that with the odds on skip it was worth the bet. looking at his race skip could have possibly been there with better position....?

[Rackon]

Baffert said Gomez should never have been in that position, then fine Baffert you ride the horse, just another excuse for the owners, Baffert loves his name in the headlines. There are many trainers out there that could do as well if not better than him so IMO he should thank the good lord his owners believe his BS.

Considering the ride Gomez gave a top horse, and the fact that either or both could've been injured, I thought Baffert was incredibly restrained.

Don't be fooled by the slick demeanor; Baffert is the real deal. He does great press but you don't accomplish what he has in this very tough game by merely good PR and schmoozing. This is a top class horse that should have been kept out of trouble and wasn't. Sometimes trouble finds you anyway, so you sure as heck don't need to court it.

[Trotman]

RO IMO was all I was stating, but IMO not one part of a team puts you in the winner's circle it's the whole team and lets face it BB has to live up to all his bravado,but to dump on the jockey,part of that team lets admit it his hat size has changed in the last few years.

[bisket]

Good point....nice to see him win this and have a Derby shot after last year's disappointment
handicapping santa anita this year reminds me of playing pimlico back when it was the place to be....

[Relwob Owner]

RO IMO was all I was stating, but IMO not one part of a team puts you in the winner's circle it's the whole team and lets face it BB has to live up to all his bravado,but to dump on the jockey,part of that team lets admit it his hat size has changed in the last few years.


How so? I would love to hear examples. Every single time he is on anything, he seems engaging and down to earth...as far as dumping on the jock, did you want him to lie? Also, if he didnt have the best horse, Gomez wouldnt be on him....teams are temporary at best in this biz IMO

To continue on the hat size thing, I met him at the last BC at Churchill a few years ago and he was as down to earth a person as I have met....we talked for a while and I was the one who ended up bailing on the conversation because I was worried I was tying him up.

[Hanover1]

Bob Baffert is the real deal. Not a phoney. A bit of a showman, but its all in good fun, and with with results I might add. Unlike some other high profile trainers (I will refrain from mentioning names here...) he is not pompous, or arrogant. Nothing there to dislike. A credit to the sport. I have conversed with him as well, and hes just another Joe every morning, very approachable, and easy going. As old as I am, (almost his age) I admire his acomplishments, and the way he has handled the attention. He would remember your name if you ever had 5 minutes with him. Unlike others......

[Greyfox]

:ThmbUp: Early speed. Controlled. Gas in the tank to come home.
Unfortunately, ....my money was distributed in a wrong pattern.

[PaceAdvantage]

RO IMO was all I was stating, but IMO not one part of a team puts you in the winner's circle it's the whole team and lets face it BB has to live up to all his bravado,but to dump on the jockey,part of that team lets admit it his hat size has changed in the last few years.If anything, that hat size has gone down...hasn't it?

[toetoe]

Baffert's wife, Jill, then lit into Espinoza, asking why he tried to unseat Gomez. Espinoza repeatedly denied any wrongdoing as she continued her rant while her husband and fans watched.






Jill Baffert should either:

1) find Jack and go uphill with him, or

2) mudwrestle Mrs. Rosario.



Mrs. B., that casserole you cooked last night was awful. Were you trying to kill somebody ? Sheesh. :rolleyes: .

[born2ride]

A bad ride by gomez...he left too much to racing luck and it went against him today...nobody likes sour grapes...he has two choices down on the rail...bull through or swing out wide....he di neither so shut up and take responsibility for putting the fastest horse in the race in the worst possible position!
Yep, that's about it. Not a good ride by Gomez, Baffert has good reason to be upset. It's not that Lucky finds trouble, it's more that Gomez places him in situations that are trouble.

[Greyfox]

Great ride by Talamo...

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Ian Meyers]

Jill Baffert should either:

1) find Jack and go uphill with him, or

2) mudwrestle Mrs. Rosario.



Mrs. B., that casserole you cooked last night was awful. Were you trying to kill somebody ? Sheesh. :rolleyes: .


You should have seen his first wife. When we were in the Trustee's Room at Real Quiet's Belmont Bafferts' wife at the time (not Jill) pushed my visibly pregnant wife away from a sink in the ladies bathroom because 'she was in a hurry' she said. My wife had no idea who the women was until she pointed her out to me and I told her that was Baffert's wife.

Bob on the other hand came across like a gentleman when we were introduced to him.

[pandy]

Lucky either would have won or just missed, he lost quite a bit of ground when he checked in tight quarters on the final turn. He also steadied early in the race. He came on very well late, a good sign that he is a quality horse.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Checked

Lucky either would have won or just missed, he lost quite a bit of ground when he checked in tight quarters on the final turn. He also steadied early in the race. He came on very well late, a good sign that he is a quality horse.

Checked what?

I'll take the "winner would have won no matter what" for the limit please.

Thank You

[Greyfox]

Checked what?

I'll take the "winner would have won no matter what" for the limit please.



Today, yes. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[PhantomOnTour]

Wow, no mention of the stumble by Sidney's Candy at the start. He damn near pulled a 'Touch Gold' in the Preakness. Rights himself, finds the lead, never looks back. Candy Ride is a hell of a sire, and this colt is dangerous come derby time. Ofcourse there's that nagging question of having never run on dirt....Interactif lookin' good to anyone? He was still coming at Sidney in the San Felipe. Go Joe Go.

Gerard Melancon would whip Gomez, Espinoza, and those two brawlers from Philly Park. He used to box....just my opinion.

[WinterTriangle]

He either didn't or the horse wouldn't go through the space available.

According to some who are looking at replays, there was room. Not arguing yes or no.

It does take "courage" for a horse (and rider) to go thru a really narrow opening.......many can't and won't do it.

Which is why I was always surprised when some (sore losers) didn't give Mine That Bird credit last year right after the race.

[Robert Goren]

According to some who are looking at replays, there was room. Not arguing yes or no.

It does take "courage" for a horse (and rider) to go thru a really narrow opening.......many can't and won't do it.

Which is why I was always surprised when some (sore losers) didn't give Mine That Bird credit last year right after the race. The same jockey panic-ed in the Belmont and swung wide while the winner hugged the golden rail.

[WinterTriangle]

Interactif lookin' good to anyone? He was still coming at Sidney in the San Felipe. Go Joe Go.

Good point. In the KY Derby, being able to finish brilliantly is important, and I look at that whether they win their preps or not.

It's a long race, longer than any of them have ever raced, so you need one who can relax for part of it, stalking and enough tactical speed to not lose touch with the field.....then reach down and find that "extra" for the last bit.

[JustRalph]

I watched the feed from Twinspires several times during the inquiry and I don't think there was room at all......... not even close to getting through

They showed at least 3 angles and they all looked way too tight to me

[bisket]

According to some who are looking at replays, there was room. Not arguing yes or no.

It does take "courage" for a horse (and rider) to go thru a really narrow opening.......many can't and won't do it.

Which is why I was always surprised when some (sore losers) didn't give Mine That Bird credit last year right after the race.
lucky has gone through on the inside, and bullied for position on a number of occasions. thats one of the main reasons i like him, and rate him ahead of esky for the derby. esky reminds me of curlin going into the derby in 2007. its a similar situation. just like esky, curlin's preps were moderately paced affairs in which he dominated. which showed curly had tons of talent, but not alot of experience in crowded situations. for this reason i liked street sense, but i made the mistake of not including curly in my trifecta. i'm not gonna do this with esky, but i'll put more money on him finishing 2nd or third. although esky may end up being the best horse, but not on derby day. i just see esky's early pace putting him in the middle of the crowd in the first turn and backstretch with his racing experience not preparing him for this. i see him making the trifecta on talent. then possibly showing the world his talent when the field is a little smaller.

[TJDave]

I watched the feed from Twinspires several times during the inquiry and I don't think there was room at all......... not even close to getting through

They showed at least 3 angles and they all looked way too tight to me

That's not what I saw.

Gomez was directly behind Sidney's Candy and almost at Who's Up's shoulder. Who's Up was outside of SC in the 2 path. No doubt in my mind that Espinoza bore in. Stood Gomez up.

[WinterTriangle]

You should have seen his first wife. When we were in the Trustee's Room at Real Quiet's Belmont Bafferts' wife at the time (not Jill) pushed my visibly pregnant wife away from a sink in the ladies bathroom because 'she was in a hurry' she said. My wife had no idea who the women was until she pointed her out to me and I told her that was Baffert's wife.

Bob on the other hand came across like a gentleman when we were introduced to him.

You can tell a lot about people, a lot, by just watching their body language. Baffert is very relaxed overall. Even the way his clothes hang on him. I have never gotten the idea that he is a phony.

Maybe he like's women who are on the type A personality side...sort of his opposite, really.


bisket, I doubt very much I will be wagering Esky or LAL to win the Derby, if they are the favs.

[Market Mover]

GoGo rode with too much confidence at times, and often this becomes his fatal flaw in big races. He should know that the consequences of trying to bust thru on the rail include running into tiring faders, and taking a solid KY contender like Lookin at Lucky to the inside in a race of this caliber is just plain suicide. He chose his own fate here today. It'll be interesting to see if they yank him for another rider come the big day..

[NJ Stinks]

No matter how you slice it there was zero reason for Gomez to even try to slip through that hole (?) on the rail. Today was a prep for a $2M race.

So Gomez did the right thing after doing the wrong thing. That Baffert was steaming about Gomez doing the wrong thing is understandable to say the least.

[pandy]

After that trip I'd imagine that we'll see Baffert try to get an outside post for the Derby and I expect Lucky to be on the outside the entire race this time.

[Kimsus]

Baffert is quoted as being disappointed in Gomez's ride. "He's a better rider than that".

More than disappointed, he was very critical, really called him out. Baffert has had a long love/hate history with Jockey's, I can see Vic at the barn this morning with a martin Garcia tee shirt on. ;)

[Kimsus]

Yep, that's about it. Not a good ride by Gomez, Baffert has good reason to be upset. It's not that Lucky finds trouble, it's more that Gomez places him in situations that are trouble.

I have no problem with horses on the rail, Gomez had him there saving ground under cover while following the leader, that was not the mistake, the mistake was he should have recognized the Ezpinoza horse would have weakened and you don't follow weakening horses for fear of running up on their heels, to add to the incident there is a history between Ezpinoza and Gomez so maybe it was payback for something Gomez had done to Victor in a previous race. Gomez is a good rider and for the 9/10 times this move works, this is the 1 time it failed, it happens alot in racing, it's just magnified this time. You get through on the rail, you are a hero and when you don't you like like a bum. As a bettor I love Jocks that save ground and take chances.

[alytim]

The same jockey panic-ed in the Belmont and swung wide while the winner hugged the golden rail.

Great point. There is a huge difference between riding the favorite in the Derby and a 50-1 shot. At 50-1 the jock gets a free roll at it. Borel had won a Derby before, and had zero pressure coming into last year's race. Johnny V may feel a few butterflies when the band starts playing My Old Kentucky Home.

[Jasonm921]

Right about now he is probably begging Stevens to come out of retirement for one last dance.

Gomez is good but he has had some questionable rides in his career in which trainers publicly bashed him....any one remember Larry Jones public lambasting of Gomez after the 2007 Belmont (Hard Spun).

[Kimsus]

Let's see Baffert has criticized, Hall of famers Mccarron, Stevens...he's also been critical of other jockies he frequently uses or has used in Flores, Ezpinoza, Antley, Smith, Nakatani, and some I can't remember. This guy goes through Jockies like Tiger woods goes through women.

[Mineshaft]

Gomez rides one today for Baffert in the Las Flores H.



This should be interesting to watch.

[Mineshaft]

No matter how you slice it there was zero reason for Gomez to even try to slip through that hole (?) on the rail. Today was a prep for a $2M race.

So Gomez did the right thing after doing the wrong thing. That Baffert was steaming about Gomez doing the wrong thing is understandable to say the least.





agree 100%

[mountainman]

To not try to save ground would amount to riding the horse as if he were superior-which he wasn't. Gomez's steering cost him second, nothing more. Although the beef, it seems, centered on the final turn, I thought the incident shortly after the start was more egregious, absolutely intentional, and borderline dirty. How intriguing that trip handicapping now becomes a crucial component of picking the derby.

[Kimsus]

To say Gomez was completely negligent yesterday, one has selective memory and are ignoring the rides Calvin Borel gave last yr during Derby month where he used the rail to great success, in particular his ride on Mine That Bird in the derby. I challenge anyone who was critical of Gomez yesterday to say Borel made a mistake taking the rail route in last yrs derby. Basically the concept of the 2 rides were the same, so why is one considered one of the greatest derby rides along with bailey's on Grindstone and one that is completely overblown as a faulty ride.

[bisket]

To say Gomez was completely negligent yesterday, one has selective memory and are ignoring the rides Calvin Borel gave last yr during Derby month where he used the rail to great success, in particular his ride on Mine That Bird in the derby. I challenge anyone who was critical of Gomez yesterday to say Borel made a mistake taking the rail route in last yrs derby. Basically the concept of the 2 rides were the same, so why is one considered one of the greatest derby rides along with bailey's on Grindstone and one that is completely overblown as a faulty ride.
in the derby its the ride i'd want. in the sa derby it was pretty stupid. baffert was quoted numerous times this week saying if he wanted a serious race from lucky he would be in arkansas. this was a workout. an outside trip and passing horse in the stretch was what was expected today. i guess gomez didn't get the memo.

[Robert Goren]

Gomez has always been about going through holes and between horses. He did that as a bug boy 20 years ago at Fonner Park and he does it now. It not like staying out side and swinging wide is always a great idea either. If you do that , you giving up many lengths and you better have a horse with a big kick. I see horse get take out the race all the time trying get outside on the turn for home. JMO

[Relwob Owner]

Let's see Baffert has criticized, Hall of famers Mccarron, Stevens...he's also been critical of other jockies he frequently uses or has used in Flores, Ezpinoza, Antley, Smith, Nakatani, and some I can't remember. This guy goes through Jockies like Tiger woods goes through women.


A trainer being critical of jockeys???? Not really a rarity in this game, is it?

[Run Nicholas Run]

Isnt Kent available?

[Mineshaft]

To say Gomez was completely negligent yesterday, one has selective memory and are ignoring the rides Calvin Borel gave last yr during Derby month where he used the rail to great success, in particular his ride on Mine That Bird in the derby. I challenge anyone who was critical of Gomez yesterday to say Borel made a mistake taking the rail route in last yrs derby. Basically the concept of the 2 rides were the same, so why is one considered one of the greatest derby rides along with bailey's on Grindstone and one that is completely overblown as a faulty ride.





In the Derby you take that chance, in the SA derby with you already having enough earnings to get into the Derby and this just being a prep race you DO NOT take that chance.

[Joey D]

That's not what I saw.

Gomez was directly behind Sidney's Candy and almost at Who's Up's shoulder. Who's Up was outside of SC in the 2 path. No doubt in my mind that Espinoza bore in. Stood Gomez up.

Absolutely..he was almost head and head with Who's Up when he had to yank back..Maybe Skipshot came over on Victor and caused a chain reaction. Can't see Victor just angling in on Garrett with the horses positioned the way they were.

With the trouble(however caused) that this horse seems to encounter almost every time he runs, he should be called Lookin at Unlucky.

Sidney's Candy was impressive winning though. Won't get that kind of easy lead in the KD and maybe "Unlucky" can redeem himself and Go Go.

[GregReinhart]

Gomez rides one today for Baffert in the Las Flores H.



This should be interesting to watch.

He already rode Ventana yesterday for the same connections (Baffert/Pegram) after what happened in the SA Derby and pulled everything out of that horse to win a head-bob over Bejarano.

[Kimsus]

in the derby its the ride i'd want. in the sa derby it was pretty stupid. baffert was quoted numerous times this week saying if he wanted a serious race from lucky he would be in arkansas. this was a workout. an outside trip and passing horse in the stretch was what was expected today. i guess gomez didn't get the memo.

If this were true and this was another locale, ie. Hong Kong the stewards would have a serious talk with Baffert after the race. The perception is you always give your best effort by doing all is necessary to win a race whether it is a prep or not, mind you this was a pretty costly prep from a money perspective wasn't it? If you are going to give instructions beforehand of having an overland trip in terms of calling it getting something out of the race, you better let the public and stewards know beforehand, otherwise those 4-5 bettors that bet on this horse deserve a refund.

[46zilzal]

Sidney's Candy was impressive winning though. Won't get that kind of easy lead in the KD and maybe "Unlucky" can redeem himself and Go Go.
I heard that same comment with Spend A Buck and War Emblem and laughed as I cashed the tickets.

[Kimsus]

A trainer being critical of jockeys???? Not really a rarity in this game, is it?

The irony of it all, is I read Baffert was an awful 1/4 rider in his time and now he is all about giving advice to eclispe award winning jocks that have won for him using similar tactics.

[johnhannibalsmith]

The irony of it all, is I read Baffert was an awful 1/4 rider in his time and now he is all about giving advice to eclispe award winning jocks that have won for him using similar tactics.

Does it require being a superior jockey to, as a trainer, expect that your rider is going to understand what it means to get a clean trip in the last race before the Kentucky Derby?

[Rackon]

Good point. In the KY Derby, being able to finish brilliantly is important, and I look at that whether they win their preps or not.

It's a long race, longer than any of them have ever raced, so you need one who can relax for part of it, stalking and enough tactical speed to not lose touch with the field.....then reach down and find that "extra" for the last bit.

Exactly.

That's why I tend to like stalkers in the KD. Pressers risk getting cooked on a fast pace upfront, late closers that come from way off the pace have to negotiate too much traffic to get a clear run - that's a huge field and late runners often get trapped behind a wall of tiring horses.

A classy horse with tactical speed, that can relax just off the pace and cruise along in behind the leaders, that has a strong finishing kick - that's my preferred Derby style. They could have won their last out or not, I want to see how they finished. So in that light, the SA Derby does not eliminate LaL for me.

[Kimsus]

Does it require being a superior jockey to, as a trainer, expect that your rider is going to understand what it means to get a clean trip in the last race before the Kentucky Derby?

You have to consider the source, if it were Shug criticizing a ride that would be news, Baffert who has criticized almost every rider that has ridden for him, that is another thing.

Still I remember Silver Charm getting an awful trip(duel with Sharp Cat) in the SA Derby before he won the K Derby, that didn't hurt him, infact it may have helped in the end. LAL got something out of the race, it shouldn't be problem having him fit come May. If he isn't then Baffert isn't the trainer most believe he is.

[Rackon]

If this were true and this was another locale, ie. Hong Kong the stewards would have a serious talk with Baffert after the race. The perception is you always give your best effort by doing all is necessary to win a race whether it is a prep or not, mind you this was a pretty costly prep from a money perspective wasn't it? If you are going to give instructions beforehand of having an overland trip in terms of calling it getting something out of the race, you better let the public and stewards know beforehand, otherwise those 4-5 bettors that bet on this horse deserve a refund.

I think you misunderstand. There's no question in my mind that Baffert fully intended to try to win this race, he just didn't want to gut the horse to do it.

I think BB felt not shipping was going to be easier on his horse, and he may have felt the SA Derby was coming up just a hair softer than the race in AK.

The fact he was so upset - and vocal about it - tells you that Baffert thought he had saddled the winner and had no intention of his horse racing for fitness alone. They expected to win or contend to win. The connections know the risks in racing, that anything can happen with rapidly maturing 3 YOs, but they fully expected to be right there.

[johnhannibalsmith]

You have to consider the source, if it were Shug criticizing a ride that would be news, Baffert who has criticized almost every rider that has ridden for him, that is another thing.

Still I remember Silver Charm getting an awful trip(duel with Sharp Cat) in the SA Derby before he won the K Derby, that didn't hurt him, infact it may have helped in the end. LAL got something out of the race, it shouldn't be problem having him fit come May. If he isn't then Baffert isn't the trainer most believe he is.

I guess I don't really see a problem criticizing a rider after a bad ride. Baffert isn't exactly my hero, but when you run that many horses over a lifetime, you are bound to get a number of bad rides in well-publicized races. Being critical of those rides is okay with me as long as the criticism is founded in reality. Simply having been critical a bunch of times isn't exactly damning evidence to suggest that Baffert is off his rocker when he speaks on the subject.

Some guys don't say much - call it classy, call it indifference - Baffert can be forthright, passionate, perhaps classless. But it doesn't necessarily mean that his opinion is irrelevant because he chooses to express it more often than others.

[fmolf]

I think you misunderstand. There's no question in my mind that Baffert fully intended to try to win this race, he just didn't want to gut the horse to do it.

I think BB felt not shipping was going to be easier on his horse, and he may have felt the SA Derby was coming up just a hair softer than the race in AK.

The fact he was so upset - and vocal about it - tells you that Baffert thought he had saddled the winner and had no intention of his horse racing for fitness alone. They expected to win or contend to win. The connections know the risks in racing, that anything can happen with rapidly maturing 3 YOs, but they fully expected to be right there.
I think Baffert thought lal would win going away and do it easily....He may be upset because rather then wrap lal up after the incident on the turn gogo used the horse a bit to finish third......hopefully this will not affect him in the derby.The turn is the hardest place of all for a horse to get thru on the rail because of the centrifugal force the horse feels tugging him outward.If Espinoza was paying Gomez back well then it serves him right.....I saw espinoza doing nothing wrong myself.Certainly nothing Gomez hasn't done to other riders!

[OntheRail]

To say Gomez was completely negligent yesterday, one has selective memory and are ignoring the rides Calvin Borel gave last yr during Derby month where he used the rail to great success, in particular his ride on Mine That Bird in the derby. I challenge anyone who was critical of Gomez yesterday to say Borel made a mistake taking the rail route in last yrs derby. Basically the concept of the 2 rides were the same, so why is one considered one of the greatest derby rides along with bailey's on Grindstone and one that is completely overblown as a faulty ride..



In the Derby you take that chance, in the SA derby with you already having enough earnings to get into the Derby and this just being a prep race you DO NOT take that chance.

And another thing Bo-Rail would of made it thru. GG had LAL in good spot... near head to head with Who's Up trailing Sidney's Candy and should of let LAL out a bit when he had the chance. He seemed to have plenty of horse and room to run at that time.

The way LAL ass end came over into the 2 path make me wonder if there was a little hoof slappin' or a loss of footing. I watch the thing a few times and did not see Vic do anything wrong with his ride. Garrett just fumbled when he should of passed.

As far as drawing an outside post in the Derby... heck he was 7 of 10 and Gomer still got him boxed up. So being 15-20 in the Derby if Gomer gives him this kind of ride will not make things easier for Lucky :bang:

[Mineshaft]

Its alright for Baffert to blast Go-Go all over the media and everything but lets look at it a different way.



What if LAL wasnt fit and came up short during this race? Would it be alright for Gomez to blast Baffert all over the media about the horse was short and that Baffert did a terrible job of training this horse up to a Grade 1 race?

[born2ride]

in the derby its the ride i'd want. in the sa derby it was pretty stupid. baffert was quoted numerous times this week saying if he wanted a serious race from lucky he would be in arkansas. this was a workout. an outside trip and passing horse in the stretch was what was expected today. i guess gomez didn't get the memo.
Exactly. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Fager Fan]

The irony of it all, is I read Baffert was an awful 1/4 rider in his time and now he is all about giving advice to eclispe award winning jocks that have won for him using similar tactics.

These guys are paid 10% by the owner for 2 minutes of work. They can suck up getting criticized when they make bad decisions which cost the owner (and trainer) money.

[toetoe]

egregious



Mark,

Just between you and I, please speak English. ;)

[Relwob Owner]

You have to consider the source, if it were Shug criticizing a ride that would be news, Baffert who has criticized almost every rider that has ridden for him, that is another thing.

Still I remember Silver Charm getting an awful trip(duel with Sharp Cat) in the SA Derby before he won the K Derby, that didn't hurt him, infact it may have helped in the end. LAL got something out of the race, it shouldn't be problem having him fit come May. If he isn't then Baffert isn't the trainer most believe he is.


If Shug was doing it, that would be a shock and definitely news because it would mean that that he had a relevant horse....as far as Baffert not being the trainer most think he is based on one horse, that is an incredibly weak point IMO.....do you normally grade trainers based on how they do with one horse? If LAL runs up the track in the Derby, Baffert will still have all of his earnings, his Triple Crown victories, etc......you seem to dislike him and I think that is causing some irrational opinions

[toetoe]

I heard that same comment with Spend A Buck and War Emblem and laughed as I cashed the tickets.



Oh no, honey, you bet Eternal Prince in '85, 'member ? You flipped a coin to decide between the two speedballs. 'N 'member your large wagers on Cupecoy's Joy and Bombay Duck ? Inspired handicapping. :ThmbUp: .

The best of all was your huge wager on the old quarterhorse-stretching-out angle: Rick's Natural Star in the Breeders' Cup Turf.

Sir, you remain as hip as the side of my ass, and just way too :cool: .

[toetoe]

I can see Vic at the barn this morning with a martin Garcia tee shirt on. ;)



:lol: . Or maybe an "Ask Me About Amway" t-shirt ... ?

[bisket]

the scene at the scale :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV92g436hxQ

[Relwob Owner]

Looks like Baffert put it to bed........



“Garrett came by the barn this morning and we talked things over. I didn’t like where the horse was the first 100 yards, but I should have told Garrett exactly what to do. I just left it up to him and I messed it up.

[mountainman]

Maybe [I][SIZE=4]putative
And you consider 'egregious' a big word??????????????????????? How does 'hypocrite' work for ya?

[Robert Fischer]

first before i even go into the incident = GOMEZ FOULED ESPINOZA IN THE STRETCH DRIVE - that was the only foul and it should be the one with a warning from the stewards. This isn't bumper cars!


The actual incident =
Gomez tried to go through

The hole was closing.


I think Espinoza getting days is ridiculous.

Espinoza isn't required to OPEN a hole that was never there, just because he's the favorite and wants to force through a hole. He needs to appeal that.

LAL was clearly the best horse, but he wasn't going to beat sidney's candy over the surface that day unless they rode him right up on a match race style. You can't ride a regular race anyway and expect to catch a merry-go-round situation with a a decent horse like Sydney's Candy on the bias. You have to go get him and run just to beat his wire-wire attempt.
The public knew it, SC was 4-1 and he is much worse than LAL.

LAL has had the problem with gameness, he really didn't show for sure if the blinkers really helped him in with the gameness in Oaklawn, but it looked positive - but I don't think LAL is necessarily to blame for the hesitation to go through the tight hole - although it's one possible explanation.

It just looked like Gomez expected the other to yield to him, and the other didn't and ran his regular race.

This catering to horses has to stop. The other day Zenyatta ran, and they didn't slow it down against her, now a jock gets days for not clearing a hole for Lookin at Lucky ??

c'mon

[born2ride]

first before i even go into the incident = GOMEZ FOULED ESPINOZA IN THE STRETCH DRIVE - that was the only foul and it should be the one with a warning from the stewards. This isn't bumper cars!


The actual incident =
Gomez tried to go through

The hole was closing.


I think Espinoza getting days is ridiculous.

Espinoza isn't required to OPEN a hole that was never there, just because he's the favorite and wants to force through a hole. He needs to appeal that.

LAL was clearly the best horse, but he wasn't going to beat sidney's candy over the surface that day unless they rode him right up on a match race style. You can't ride a regular race anyway and expect to catch a merry-go-round situation with a a decent horse like Sydney's Candy on the bias. You have to go get him and run just to beat his wire-wire attempt.
The public knew it, SC was 4-1 and he is much worse than LAL.

LAL has had the problem with gameness, he really didn't show for sure if the blinkers really helped him in with the gameness in Oaklawn, but it looked positive - but I don't think LAL is necessarily to blame for the hesitation to go through the tight hole - although it's one possible explanation.

It just looked like Gomez expected the other to yield to him, and the other didn't and ran his regular race.

This catering to horses has to stop. The other day Zenyatta ran, and they didn't slow it down against her, now a jock gets days for not clearing a hole for Lookin at Lucky ??

c'mon
This pretty much matches how I feel having watched the replay and the overhead cam replay.

[BluegrassProf]

I think Espinoza getting days is ridiculous.:ThmbUp:

Agreed w/ all of the above.

Next thing you know, jocks'll be fined for making one horse move faster than another.

:faint:

[PhantomOnTour]

If Animal Planet is doing their Jockeys series this spring at Santa Anita like last year, we should get a good account of what went down after the race, esp in the jocks' room.

Anyone know if they are running that series again this summer?

[Fager Fan]

If Animal Planet is doing their Jockeys series this spring at Santa Anita like last year, we should get a good account of what went down after the race, esp in the jocks' room.

Anyone know if they are running that series again this summer?

Read somewhere it's canceled. Don't hold me to that as I only read that headline, never could stomach the show so didn't care for the details.

[JustRalph]

It's canceled. And from what I saw, Victor should get suspended......they did the right thing.......

Gomez landed a two punches at $375 a piece :lol:

[Greyfox]

It's canceled. And from what I saw, Victor should get suspended......they did the right thing.......

Gomez landed a two punches at $375 a piece :lol:

Breaking News:

The "Donald" will be sponsoring a UFC battle June 5
G. Gomez vs V. Espinoza. Probable site will be L.A. Staples Center.

(Pass it on. You heard it first at Paceadvantage.com .)

[Kimsus]

Looks like Baffert put it to bed........



“Garrett came by the barn this morning and we talked things over. I didn’t like where the horse was the first 100 yards, but I should have told Garrett exactly what to do. I just left it up to him and I messed it up.

Precisely why jockies at times get blamed when they follow trainer's instructions and why we shouldn't jump to conclusions.

[Johnny V]

I know of the julie / bravo incident in '89 when bravo
was still a bug , but never heard of her v. nicky.
I never heard of her getting into a fight with Santagata either. Julie did punch out Miguel Rujano and hit him with a lawn chair and she was also involved a post race weigh in altercation when she shoved Yves?? Turcotte off the scale after he hit her horse with the whip.

[ZephyrHawk]

There was no reason for Gomez to waste his horse (who already has enough winnings to go to the TC) going around a wall of contenders, so there's nothing wrong with his idea of going inside.

That being said, you go inside, you take the chance of not being able to make it through.

That being said, it does seem as though Espinoza may have been unnecessarily cutting in.

Regardless, this was NOT a case of a horse not wanting to push through others. LAL has done it before and he did it fairly well Saturday after he was checked, and checked hard. This horse went from moving up steadily on the inside to off the screen in two seconds time. I cried out, "Oh crud!" when I saw it cause I figured he was being completely pulled up with an injury. I felt so much better when he came fighting back for 3rd.

So, what did we learn from this?

LAL didn't need to be on the inside, and being there hurt him. Even if he had been clear he might not have caught the speedy Sidney's Candy that day. Even if he couldn't have caught the leader, the fact remains he didn't need to. Sidney's Candy needed that race, LAL just benefitted from the learning experience. He'll be better off for not having exhausted himself in his last Derby prep. Jockey error or not, Garret did one thing right...

He made LAL a much better betting prospect for those of us who are paying attention.

[Relwob Owner]

[QUOTE=ZephyrHawk]There was no reason for Gomez to waste his horse (who already has enough winnings to go to the TC) going around a wall of contenders, so there's nothing wrong with his idea of going inside.



This doesnt add up to me....if there was no reaosn to go wide since he has enough earnings, then why on earth would you go inside and increase the likelihood of the horse getting hurt????...yes, the odds are slim but the way it played out, LAL is really lucky he didnt hurt himself.....

[Buckeye]

Originally Posted by Buckeye

well, if that's true, then the Derby has plenty of trouble waiting for him! Point being, you figure it out. (Only out of shear Charity), I'll do it for you: think the Wood Memorial six horse field provided trouble for this horse? Magnify that by say 10,000 times more in the Derby.

I am confused....are you taking about the Wood or the SA Derby? Didnt you agree with me? Confused.....

You are correct. I was confusing the two races, my bad.

Lookin at Lucky encountered "trouble" in the Rebel and won, yet still found trouble again. Point being, in Kentucky, trouble will find him for sure. Some horses are trouble prone and two strikes against this one because "trouble" is the middle name of the Kentucky Derby.

[toetoe]

And you consider 'egregious' a big word??????????????????????? How does 'hypocrite' work for ya?



I can handle being taken seriously, even though I think I appended some kinda smilie thing.

Hypocrite, as it means "shallow believer," works fine for me. Hell, everything works for me, as I would never essay to censor a garden variety of moronic poster, much less an admirable hippophile whose trenchant thoughts I am always eager to hear.

[46zilzal]

Stewards have pan cameras which we do not.....From being up there with them reviewing a possible inquiry, they have views of subtle maneuvers which the crowd rarely sees.

[Relwob Owner]

Originally Posted by Buckeye





You are correct. I was confusing the two races, my bad.

Lookin at Lucky encountered "trouble" in the Rebel and won, yet still found trouble again. Point being, in Kentucky, trouble will find him for sure. Some horses are trouble prone and two strikes against this one because "trouble" is the middle name of the Kentucky Derby.


Easy to do on here....I think we were actually agreeing on it....I think LAL(trip in SA Derby) and Awesome Act(lost shoe) will both be overbet a bit in the Derby as a result of Saturday....

[Buckeye]

could spell opportunity-- ignore or downgrade depending on the weight of a lost shoe. Trying to pay attention, but this year's Derby seems more and more like shooting dice. My point was this, the potential for trouble exists beyond belief in the Derby so LAL could be and probably is in for more of the same.

[bisket]

if you look back to last year and watch some of lucky's races as a 2 year old you will see that he was pushing horses around as a 2 year old. in a couple of his stakes race last year he leaned on horses and made room. to me this is the most important thing to see in a horse that doesn't have natural speed to get out in front. lucky can make his own good trip. in the derby its an important attribute to have. lucky has tactical speed, which is why all along i new he was going to like dirt, and improve on the surface. tactical speed give a horse no advantage on poly. you have one run on that surface.

[Relwob Owner]

could spell opportunity-- ignore or downgrade depending on the weight of a lost shoe. Trying to pay attention, but this year's Derby seems more and more like shooting dice. My point was this, the potential for trouble exists beyond belief in the Derby so LAL could be and probably is in for more of the same.


and to that point, I agree.....

That is what is so great about betting against Esky in the Derby-probably the best horse but the trip is a crapshoot

[mountainman]

I can handle being taken seriously, even though I think I appended some kinda smilie thing.

Hypocrite, as it means "shallow believer," works fine for me. Hell, everything works for me, as I would never essay to censor a garden variety of moronic poster, much less an admirable hippophile whose trenchant thoughts I am always eager to hear.

Please save me the trouble of getting the dictionary. Should I feel insulted?

[WinterTriangle]

if you look back to last year and watch some of lucky's races as a 2 year old you will see that he was pushing horses around as a 2 year old. in a couple of his stakes race last year he leaned on horses and made room. to me this is the most important thing to see in a horse that doesn't have natural speed to get out in front. lucky can make his own good trip. in the derby its an important attribute to have. lucky has tactical speed, which is why all along i new he was going to like dirt, and improve on the surface. tactical speed give a horse no advantage on poly. you have one run on that surface.

Good points. Finding trouble and vice versa isn't the problem. The problem is not being able to overcome it.

Sea the Stars had obstacles in a huge field. He won.

[joanied]

I was glad to se Baffert say what he did the next morning...he had every right to be disgusted right after the race, and no doubt when Gomez yanked LAL Baffert must have had a heart attack...I know I jumped to my feet yelling "ohno,ohno"...I also believe that Gomez is a class act, and never would have duked it out with Espinosa if he didn't feel he deserved it...and, although Baffert admitted he was wrong not to tell Gomez exactly what he wanted...one can only assume that Baffert beleived Gomez knew how to ride the race without getting exact instructions...which, 8 times outta 10, are thrown out the window once the race gets started anyway.
But...although Baffert loves winning the SA Derby, everyone knows that LAL didn't need to win...but Baffert would have loved it if he did...I think Lucky got a lot from the race anyway...and anyone that says he doesn't have a good turn of foot didn't watch him come back like he did...the colt exploded once clear...no one was gonna catch Sidney's Candy...but LAL did make up a ton of ground, and many other horses would have given it up after that incident...Lucky reminds me of Silver Charm...and that is a good thing.

by the way...Talamo said some pretty strong things about Candy after the race...and I don't take what this kid says anything but serious...but, did anyone look at S Candy in the winners circle...he was completely tukced up and blowing very hard...this win may have taken too much out of him...I don't think he can carry that speed wire to wire in the Derby...Talamo would have been better served, IMO to take a peek behind him...with all that daylight, even with LAL & Setsuko coming, Joe coulda wrapped up on him and still won by two.

Maybe they gave LAL the wrong name...maybe this would have been better...Lookin' for Trouble:D (sometimes I make me laugh!!)

[bisket]

Good points. Finding trouble and vice versa isn't the problem. The problem is not being able to overcome it.

Sea the Stars had obstacles in a huge field. He won.
this is the first time he didn't win when encountering trouble. which isn't a suprise as i don't think he could have won saturday without the trouble. he was in the race to prepare for the derby.

[bisket]

joanied, if you haven't noticed a good turn of foot is the main ingredient in any horse i like. for me, the main thing a router needs to be succesful on a regular basis, is the ability to accelerate in the middle of a race and still sustain the 12 second furlong to the end of a race. if a horse can do this he doesn't need the lead because he has the ability to make his own trip. in the derby this is the utmost of importance than any other attribute a horse can have. the two horses that i've seen display this ability is lucky and ice box. thats an exacta box no matter what post they end up with, and more than likely will be the basis for my exotics.

[Hanover1]

Could be the most worriesome bridgejump ever on a 2-1 shot in the Derby.....

[PaceAdvantage]

Please save me the trouble of getting the dictionary. Should I feel insulted?I think toetoe was trying to say he was kidding around...that's why he put that little "winking smiley" emoticon on the end of his original reply...

[mountainman]

I think toetoe was trying to say he was kidding around...that's why he put that little "winking smiley" emoticon on the end of his original reply...
I know. I did get out the dictionary and owe him an apology. It's just that when you are my size and see the word 'HIPPOphile'......

[joanied]

joanied, if you haven't noticed a good turn of foot is the main ingredient in any horse i like. for me, the main thing a router needs to be succesful on a regular basis, is the ability to accelerate in the middle of a race and still sustain the 12 second furlong to the end of a race. if a horse can do this he doesn't need the lead because he has the ability to make his own trip. in the derby this is the utmost of importance than any other attribute a horse can have. the two horses that i've seen display this ability is lucky and ice box. thats an exacta box no matter what post they end up with, and more than likely will be the basis for my exotics.

I agree with that, bisket :)

[toetoe]

Please save me the trouble of getting the dictionary. Should I feel insulted?



No, sir. Anyway, those words are not in it ... I think ... :confused: .

[toetoe]

I agree with that, bisket :)




Well said, Madam. :ThmbUp: .

[Buckeye]

Checked what?

I'll take the "winner would have won no matter what" for the limit please.

Thank You

you got it and That's the trouble with "trouble"

sometimes (most times) it is subservient to the outcome. Nice 25 cent word subservient. But I digress.

Did Secretariat win the Derby because he stayed out of trouble? I don't think so!

Doe's the best horse usually fail to win the Derby because of trouble? No. So the best horse will probably win, by definition. Win lose or draw, don't blame it on trouble. It may "find" someone but meanwhile not likely a good excuse.

Predictably consider this: if a horse continually seems to "find trouble" he is NOT the best horse, he's a "trouble finder."

[joanied]

you got it and That's the trouble with "trouble"

sometimes (most times) it is subservient to the outcome. Nice 25 cent word subservient. But I digress.

Did Secretariat win the Derby because he stayed out of trouble? I don't think so!

Doe's the best horse usually fail to win the Derby because of trouble? No. So the best horse will probably win, by definition. Win lose or draw, don't blame it on trouble. It may "find" someone but meanwhile not likely a good excuse.

Predictably consider this: if a horse continually seems to "find trouble" he is NOT the best horse, he's a "trouble finder."

Maybe I'm not understanding your post... but do you really beleive that horses that happen to encounter more than their share of trouble while racing are not always the best horse?
Do you beleive that a horse actually looks for trouble when racing?
There are countless examples of the best horse not winning a race...even the Derby, because of trouble encountered...say the best horse is behind a wall of horses, maybe gets checked, finally gets clear and just misses the win and looses to a long shot...does that mean the long shot was the best horse?
:confused:

[Buckeye]

the short answer is yes because that's how score is kept. When Onion beat Secretariat and don't forget Prove Out the best horse won those races. The best horse always wins (well almost, excepting collusion) by definition. Who was best? Under the "circumstances" so and so won. Makes no difference who the best horse was. Who won?

And if a particular horse has a pattern of getting into trouble I take that into consideration.

[Buckeye]

And I must add this comment, that's why we race: to determine who the best horse is. Makes no sense to say the horse that finished second is better than the winner. Now if you want to discuss overall who's better, that would be a different question but I don't know of any bet on who's better "overall"

So in a sense, I don't care.

[joanied]

And I must add this comment, that's why we race: to determine who the best horse is. Makes no sense to say the horse that finished second is better than the winner. Now if you want to discuss overall who's better, that would be a different question but I don't know of any bet on who's better "overall"

So in a sense, I don't care.

Ok...I beleive you are talking in terms of wagering...but I will stick to my premis that the best horse doesn't always win...but refrain from getting into this any longer because...you don't care.

[Buckeye]

could spell opportunity-- ignore or downgrade depending on the weight of a lost shoe. Trying to pay attention, but this year's Derby seems more and more like shooting dice. My point was this, the potential for trouble exists beyond belief in the Derby so LAL could be and probably is in for more of the same.

Like I said.