Steve Crist: Tapeta Shmapeta!

[andymays]

How synthetic surfaces can make a complete mess of so-called world-class championship

http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/2010/03/dubai-world-crapshoot.html

Excerpt:

The richest horse race in history was staged in Dubai earlier today, and it was a $10 million advertisement for how synthetic surfaces can make a complete mess of so-called world-class championship racing. For all that it proved about the quality of the contestants either individually or as a group, the results of the Dubai World Cup might as well have been drawn out of a hat.


Excerpt:

Tapeta may well be a lovely training surface, and it has gotten high marks among synthetic tracks, but no one can really explain why anyone needs a third type of horse racing to go along with the dirt and turf racing that has defined the sport and its great horses for centuries. The Maktoums' decision to replace dirt with Tapeta at their gaudy new racing palace was a premature guess that these new surfaces might somehow magically combine dirt and turf racing into one globally-accepted footing. That hasn't happened and isn't going to anytime soon, or probably ever.

Instead, it remains entirely unclear what this World Cup proved other than Bob Baffert's adage that synthetic tracks make good horses look ordinary and ordinary horses look good. (And put down your torches -- this has nothing to with Zenyatta, a transcendently great horse who handles everything and is probably as good or better on dirt than on synthetics.) Sure, plenty of major dirt races end with befuddling finishes (cf. Kentucky Derby, 2005 and 2009) and there were even bigger upsets on grass today than on Tapeta. But in the past, the World Cup was a true showcase for champions, such as Cigar, Silver Charm, Dubai Milennium, Invasor and Curlin. Now? Step right up and spin the wheel.

[lamboguy]

everyone that got interviewed yesterday at mey dan were asked how they felt about this racetrack. everyone responded that they loved it.


they actually spent $2billion to put the place together. i don't think that the meet that they run is that long either. one thing i notices is that they take their horseracing pretty serious there. there was one breakdown and alot of pullups that i noticed. i don't know if it was surface related or not.

since the penn national fiasco about 3 months ago, i have yet to see 1 breakdown on the track, and very few pullups and eased either. but penn national supposedly has the best and safest surface for racing these days.

[Tom]

Sounds like he lost his ass yesterday. :lol:
I thought the big race was totally predictable - I just made the wrong betting choice was all. The winner figured absolutely.
Sour grapes from the DRF......the Master of Mediocrity.
Hey, Steve, contact Winter Triangle - she knows how to handicap. Maybe she will tutor you! :lol:

[andymays]

everyone that got interviewed yesterday at mey dan were asked how they felt about this racetrack. everyone responded that they loved it.



I wonder what the penalty is over there if you say you don't like it. :)

[Robert Goren]

About ten years ago, Youbet had a contest. Pick more winners than Crist at Laural and split the prize. I and 80% of the entrants shared the prize. Ever since then I have taken anything he says with a very large grain of salt.

[lamboguy]

[B]


I wonder what the penalty is over there if you say you don't like it. :)
i would get that they only cutoff about 3 of your fingers if you do that.

boy do those guys spend alot of money on building things in dubai.

if one of their own people asked them for a glass of water they would tell them to go take a hike.

a few years ago there was a string of princes that all died due to thirst.one of those prince's owned a kentucky derby winner and died of thirst 3 months later.

[Valuist]

I think you mean a heart attack.

[the little guy]

About ten years ago, Youbet had a contest. Pick more winners than Crist at Laural and split the prize. I and 80% of the entrants shared the prize. Ever since then I have taken anything he says with a very large grain of salt.


Yeah, one day of playing a track he never looks at is the correct barometer of his skills as a player.

And, of course, this has a great deal to do with the article he wrote yesterday.

If you're a horseplayer you are lucky Steve Crist exists.

[the little guy]

Sounds like he lost his ass yesterday.


Come on, Tom, you're a lot better than this.

I imagine I'm the only one here who knows what he bet....and it was pennies. However, this is irrelevent, and you know that. Whether you agree with what he wrote, or not, his betting results are superfluous...and always are.

[Trotman]

:ThmbUp: Right on tlg, AM is a waste of typing :ThmbDown:

[andymays]

:ThmbUp: Right on tlg, AM is a waste of typing :ThmbDown:

:confused:

Which part?

[andymays]

Crist has been consistent in his criticism of synthetic surfaces. He didn't form his opinion yesterday.

[Robert Goren]

The thing that some people wonder about is whether someone's stance on poly is colored by their ability to pick winners on it. I have yet to hear anyone say I am making a ton of money betting poly tracks, but I wish they would go back to dirt. It is ok if you hate poly because you can't show a profit on it, but at least be upfront about it. JMO

[cj]

everyone that got interviewed yesterday at mey dan were asked how they felt about this racetrack. everyone responded that they loved it.


Why would anyone complain about the surface with the purses they are offering? That doesn't make it a good surface.

[cj]

The thing that some people wonder about is whether someone's stance on poly is colored by their ability to pick winners on it. I have yet to hear anyone say I am making a ton of money betting poly tracks, but I wish they would go back to dirt. It is ok if you hate poly because you can't show a profit on it, but at least be upfront about it. JMO

Actually, this is brought up all the time here. The two are not necessarily related. I hate synthetic racing as a fan, but my results at the window are similar on dirt and rubber. I just think it is bad for the sport, as does Crist.

How is Dean's Kitten running in the Derby good for the sport? It doesn't matter if I bet on him yesterday or not. The two can exist independent of each other.

[johnhannibalsmith]

The thing that some people wonder about is whether someone's stance on poly is colored by their ability to pick winners on it. I have yet to hear anyone say I am making a ton of money betting poly tracks, but I wish they would go back to dirt. It is ok if you hate poly because you can't show a profit on it, but at least be upfront about it. JMO

I can state unequivocally that for me, it is both the betting aspect and the sporting aspect that turns me off. I actually looked forward to the installation of synthetics initially, viewing them as something that could potentially move racing back in the right direction.

I never knew what to make of Turfway because I never cared for the product in the first place. It just looked like a different kind of something that didn't appeal to me. I detested the switch at Keeneland after a short time when it began to feel like Turfway with twice as many horses logjammed in the corner.

Once upon a time, I bet most of my money on the California tracks and watched every race, often several times looking for insight as well as exciting racing. Now, I haven't played a Cal track (except Pomona, of course!) in a couple of years and other than the Breeder's Cup, don't even bother to tune in. It isn't particularly exciting racing anymore and no, I simply cannot apply my visions of race dynamics to the surface any longer.

I'm not inclined to cry about the synthetics just to do it, but they suck. I can't get interested in handicapping the races, I'm not succesful when I do, and I think the racing has become a complete bore to watch. I can't be much more upfront than that - three reasons to bet elsewhere.

[Rico8812]

About ten years ago, Youbet had a contest. Pick more winners than Crist at Laural and split the prize. I and 80% of the entrants shared the prize. Ever since then I have taken anything he says with a very large grain of salt.

Wow, this is the dumbest post i've read on a racing message board in a long time.

[Grits]

I'm not inclined to cry about the synthetics just to do it, but they suck. I can't get interested in handicapping the races, I'm not succesful when I do, and I think the racing has become a complete bore to watch. I can't be much more upfront than that - three reasons to bet elsewhere.
This leads one to wonder if Keeneland's handle will again be down due to the "economy." Not that I care, as others, I've not spent as much time there since the change in surface.

[pandy]

If Jerry Bailey had been on the winner we'd hear what a great ride it was. The field was surprisingly weak, the horse stole it, don't see the surface as being a problem.

[JustRalph]

I have warmed up to Crist over the years. Used to hate him. Now I actually like to read him and admire how he plays pick 4's etc and explains it better than anybody I have ever read.

maybe that says more about me than him

I still hate his hair though........... :lol:

[rwwupl]

I do not like synthetics for all the reasons given previously and then some. They are bad for the game, we have been given so much false information on the benefits,manipulated polls, and a standard dirt track when maintained with a fraction of the attention that the synthetics have been given is more than satisfactory, and a hundred years of experience says so(IMO).

[WinterTriangle]

at their gaudy new racing palace

I suppose he would find the gorgeous not-lacking-in-anything training centers in Japan "gaudy", too.

Better that racing facilities look like Aqueduct, I guess. :rolleyes:

Sounds like sour grapes and jealousy to me.

BTW, I don't like synthetics at all. Its just that I have less years in this game than most of you, so it was something I learned to deal with while I was learning to handicap, mostly because I entered the game "as it is"---- not "as it was"----- because I wasn't around in the old days. I did well at the BC this year too, and it surprised me.

I tend to be a person who deals with things as they are. While I may yearn for them to be different, that doesn't change reality. I don't imagine that most of europe will change their surface and there are still tracks in the US I want to play as well, so in order to do that, I had to learn it. Keenland opens soon, for instance.

[Fager Fan]

Why would anyone complain about the surface with the purses they are offering? That doesn't make it a good surface.

Or more to the point, why would the owners of turf/synth horses be anything but giddy that they made ALL the races cater to them?

"Why, it used to be that dirt horses ran better in the dirt races, how was that fair to our turf horses?"

[gm10]

Crist has been consistent in his criticism of synthetic surfaces. He didn't form his opinion yesterday.

This race wasn't more random than last year when it was on the dirt or the Kentucky Derby 2009.

Crist needs to stop whining and become objective again.

[Robert Goren]

Wow, this is the dumbest post i've read on a racing message board in a long time.You could be right. Not one of my better efforts for sure.:)

[bobphilo]

And so the all-weather basing begins again. Crist often has something valuable to say but, unfortunately, this article reeks of prejudgdice. He admits that most of the surprise results happened on the turf course. This admission makes all the problems he blames on the tapeta surface on WC day irrelevant. Is he implying that all the upsets on the turf course were due to its proximity to the “evil tapeta”?

There wee a lot of factors at play responsible for the surprising results all day. The World Cup course in particular differs greatly in configuration from the older Nad AL Sheba one. That course used a more European style with a very long straight leadinto the one sweeping turn. The new Meyan course, more like a U.S. oval is a 2 turn one with a very short run to the 1st turn. Twice Over, one of the top contenders was doomed by his wide post and 4-5 wide trip around both turns while the winner hugged the rail. Traffic problems in general seemed to cause a lot of upsets with these huge fields. Whether the turns at Meyan are tighter than at Nad Al Sheba, I don’t know.

The important point is that this course differs in several important ways from the older one, not just the surface, but nowhere do I hear anyone talking about anything except the opportunity to bash AW surfaces, beginning with Crist’s flawed article.

Bob

[andymays]

Crist is giving his opinion and is sticking up for traditional racing in the United States. What's wrong with that?

How have synthetic surfaces enhanced the road to the Triple Crown or the battle for HOY?

Are they less expensive to maintain? :rolleyes:

Do they have no biases? :rolleyes:

[the little guy]

This race wasn't more random than last year when it was on the dirt or the Kentucky Derby 2009.

Crist needs to stop whining and become objective again.


I give you credit for consistency.

[tzipi]

Yeah, one day of playing a track he never looks at is the correct barometer of his skills as a player.

And, of course, this has a great deal to do with the article he wrote yesterday.

If you're a horseplayer you are lucky Steve Crist exists.


Right on.

[Charlie D]

Can't wait to see the reaction of Euro bettors when Epsom, Newmarket, Goodwood, Longchamp execs tells them they are installing poly, tapeta or some other synthetic surface.



They'd probably not be that stupid though.


HK, Oz, Japan's top races all run on synth too


How friggin boring would that be.

[DeanT]

This leads one to wonder if Keeneland's handle will again be down due to the "economy." Not that I care, as others, I've not spent as much time there since the change in surface.

Hi Grits,

KEE had a mixed bag last season - spring meet handle was down compared to previous year, fall meet was up compared to previous year. It'll be interesting to see what happens this spring.

[andymays]

Hi Grits,

KEE had a mixed bag last season - spring meet handle was down compared to previous year, fall meet was up compared to previous year. It'll be interesting to see what happens this spring.


Keenland will do well. Low takeout and good field size.

The problem I have with them is their marriage to the Polytrack company and Martin Collins international. They were the source of a lot of synthetic propaganda that turned out to be false. I understand that they thought every track in the country would install polytrack but they were mistaken. Polytrack turned out to be the worst of all the sythetic surfaces in the opinion of most observers.

[Grits]

Hi Grits,

KEE had a mixed bag last season - spring meet handle was down compared to previous year, fall meet was up compared to previous year. It'll be interesting to see what happens this spring.

Dean, often now, I feel I'm throwing darts; many concluding "throw out everything entered that's run on dirt" ...............:lol:

Its still a fun place to be, and always will be. Sometimes, I wish I still lived down the street from it. Took me longer to park than it took to drive down Man O War.

[DeanT]

Dean, often now, I feel I'm throwing darts; many concluding "throw out everything entered that's run on dirt" ...............:lol:

Its still a fun place to be, and always will be. Sometimes, I wish I still lived down the street from it. Took me longer to park than it took to drive down Man O War.

Your juxtaposition on KEE is pretty accurate for a lot of players, I think.

It is a great place to be, and they can never take that away. The track has made some people not want to play, but the same people still love it for what it is.

We see similar juxtapositions with an iconic place like Saratoga. We get some comments at HANA - 'I love Saratoga, but when they take 26% out of several pools, I will simply not play it any longer.'

[toetoe]

[B]


I wonder what the penalty is over there if you say you don't like it. :)







Not only would that be a hate crime, but your very post is a hate crime. :rolleyes: .

[the little guy]

We see similar juxtapositions with an iconic place like Saratoga. We get some comments at HANA - 'I love Saratoga, but when they take 26% out of several pools, I will simply not play it any longer.'




What was the NY State Racing and Wagering Board's response to HANA when they asked them if they could lower this?

[DeanT]

What was the NY State Racing and Wagering Board's response to HANA when they asked them if they could lower this?
HANA was not formed when they were looking at the takeout raise at that time, so I do not know Andy.

However, when the NY State Racing and Wagering Board was asked by HANA and Tioga to lower takes at a New York harness track the response was favorable:

From Bloodhorse (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/56127/ny-racetrack-gets-ok-for-takeout-experiment)last week:

An experiment by a New York racetrack to lower pari-mutuel takeout in the hope of increasing handle was approved March 26 by the New York State Racing and Wagering Board.

Tioga Downs, a harness track with video gaming machines, has had talks with the Horseplayers Association of North America, which has pushed for takeout reductions. Tioga Downs is the first track to lower takeout across the board, not just on specific bets.

The rates for the upcoming live racing season are as follows: win, place, and show bets at 15%, down from 18%; exacta and daily double wagers at 17%, down from 20%; and all other exotic bets at 21%, down from 25%.

Do you have any knowledge that NYRA can ask the NYSRWB for lower takeouts for Saratoga, like this New York harness track did this past month to help horseplayers get a break there? If you do, or can put us in contact with anyone there, we would be happy to work with you all to help lobby for a takeout reduction.

[Tom]

Come on, Tom, you're a lot better than this.

I imagine I'm the only one here who knows what he bet....and it was pennies. However, this is irrelevent, and you know that. Whether you agree with what he wrote, or not, his betting results are superfluous...and always are.

I could care less what he bet - he sounds like a sore loser in that article. I think it was out of line, considering how every one there loved the place and the fields were full. His betting skills are not a license for bad journalism. It was racing's biggest day and some small person throwing stones from afar were laughable. What was his point? Just another poly basher....dime a dozen. He could have wrote a far more interesting article about the racing.

[the little guy]

HANA was not formed when they were looking at the takeout raise at that time, so I do not know Andy.

However, when the NY State Racing and Wagering Board was asked by HANA and Tioga to lower takes at a New York harness track the response was favorable:

From Bloodhorse (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/56127/ny-racetrack-gets-ok-for-takeout-experiment)last week:



Do you have any knowledge that NYRA can ask the NYSRWB for lower takeouts for Saratoga, like this New York harness track did this past month to help horseplayers get a break there? If you do, or can put us in contact with anyone there, we would be happy to work with you all to help lobby for a takeout reduction.


I don't understand, in the first part you said HANA spoke to the NYS Wagering Board on behalf of Tioga....so why in the latter part are you asking me who you need to speak to there? I assume you know. What am I confused about.

Surely you know our takeout raises were opposed by NYRA.

[Tom]

Crist has been consistent in his criticism of synthetic surfaces. He didn't form his opinion yesterday.\

So you are saying he looked at the racing with a long time bias yesterday? ;)

[andymays]

\

So you are saying he looked at the racing with a long time bias yesterday? ;)


He's trying to influence people and stick up for traditional racing in the United States. Plain and simple.

I've been doing the same thing on a much smaller scale. ;)

[Tom]

Crist is giving his opinion and is sticking up for traditional racing in the United States. What's wrong with that?

How have synthetic surfaces enhanced the road to the Triple Crown or the battle for HOY?

Are they less expensive to maintain? :rolleyes:

Do they have no biases? :rolleyes:

Throw Gulfstream into that mix. A track that can't even time races.
How have synthetics hurt the triple crown? Street Sense, Hard Spun, I Want Revenge, Pioneer of the Nile. Guess they stunk up the joint?

[DeanT]

I don't understand, in the first part you said HANA spoke to the NYS Wagering Board on behalf of Tioga....so why in the latter part are you asking me who you need to speak to there? I assume you know. What am I confused about.

Surely you know our takeout raises were opposed by NYRA.

I am wondering if anyone at NYRA would like to help lobby towards making Saratoga's takes more favorable. As you know, the track must ask for a reduction for it to succeed (like Mr. Gural did at Tioga), because customers do not rank too high on the list.

If you know of someone at NYRA who would like to help, please let us know. I am sure you as a horseplayer, like us, would like to make egregious 26% takeouts in some pools at Saratoga a thing of the past.

[Tom]

He's trying to influence people and stick up for traditional racing in the United States. Plain and simple.

I've been doing the same thing on a much smaller scale. ;)

what the hell does racing in a foreign country have to do with traditional American racing? We are free to have our biased dirt tracks with horses going wire to wire and winning by open lengths at 3-5 any day we want to. We can have the cloud of drugging and fixing surround the game if want to. If we are so concerned about it, why aren't OUR track offering 10 million dollar races? I think their racing is their call. If we don't like it stay home and draw winners out ouf our own hats.

[andymays]

Throw Gulfstream into that mix. A track that can't even time races.
How have synthetics hurt the triple crown? Street Sense, Hard Spun, I wnat REvenge, Pioneer of the Nile. Guess they stunk up the joint?

I think you would be in the minority on this one Tom. Most Horseplayers and Trainers would say that synthetics have clouded the picture. Especially horses coming in from Santa Anita where the Pro Ride is closer to turf than any other synthetic surface.

We will never know how many potential starts never were able to show their stuff because they hated Pro Ride. I Want Revenge would be the best example of hating Pro Ride and loving dirt.

[Fager Fan]

I could care less what he bet - he sounds like a sore loser in that article. I think it was out of line, considering how every one there loved the place and the fields were full. His betting skills are not a license for bad journalism. It was racing's biggest day and some small person throwing stones from afar were laughable. What was his point? Just another poly basher....dime a dozen. He could have wrote a far more interesting article about the racing.

If you offer a lot of money and don't limit the field, you can get big fields, even full of claimers. They could even finish in an "exciting" blanket finish, and still be claimers.

Just where would you rank the winner on a list of the current top dirt horses in the world? Think he could go toe to toe with Quality Road, do ya?

[Tom]

If you offer a lot of money and don't limit the field, you can get big fields, even full of claimers. They could even finish in an "exciting" blanket finish, and still be claimers.

Just where would you rank the winner on a list of the current top dirt horses in the world? Think he could go toe to toe with Quality Road, do ya?

Which Quality Road - the one who wins at GP or the one who looks rather ordinary everywhere else?
What's wrong with claimers? You got a bias where your money comes from?

[the little guy]

I am wondering if anyone at NYRA would like to help lobby towards making Saratoga's takes more favorable. As you know, the track must ask for a reduction for it to succeed (like Mr. Gural did at Tioga), because customers do not rank too high on the list.

If you know of someone at NYRA who would like to help, please let us know. I am sure you as a horseplayer, like us, would like to make egregious 26% takeouts in some pools at Saratoga a thing of the past.


Dean, I know your motives are good, and I respect that, but I think you need to do some research into this situation, particularly about the history here. I think that will answer your questions.

[andymays]

what the hell does racing in a foreign country have to do with traditional American racing? We are free to have our biased dirt tracks with horses going wire to wire and winning by open lengths at 3-5 any day we want to. We can have the cloud of drugging and fixing surround the game if want to. If we are so concerned about it, why aren't OUR track offering 10 million dollar races? I think their racing is their call. If we don't like it stay home and draw winners out ouf our own hats.


Not sure what you mean by the 3-5 thing.

Drugging and fixing happen everywhere or did I miss something.

Nobody said their racing wasn't their call. As I said before Crist is trying to prevent more tracks in the United States from installing it becuase he believes its bad for racing here.

[Dahoss9698]

As I am learning, in a game where there are virtually no sure things, there is one sure thing. If Andy Beyer or Steve Crist write an article, there will always be a fraction of people that are totally unable to put aside their own personal jealousy to actually read the article for what it says.

The conversation always turns into an accusation that either man is a sore loser, Beyer and the Derby,etc. The new one is Crist is jealous. Jealous of what? Hasn't he carved out a pretty nice niche for himself?

The thing about guys like Beyer and Crist is they write about stuff that horseplayers care about. There are enough guys out there writing puff pieces. If we had more guys like them writing, the game would be in much better shape IMO.

[SansuiSC]

I am wondering if anyone at NYRA would like to help lobby towards making Saratoga's takes more favorable. As you know, the track must ask for a reduction for it to succeed (like Mr. Gural did at Tioga), because customers do not rank too high on the list.

If you know of someone at NYRA who would like to help, please let us know. I am sure you as a horseplayer, like us, would like to make egregious 26% takeouts in some pools at Saratoga a thing of the past.

I highly doubt it as much as everyone would like to see it.

Handle is too large.

[DeanT]

Dean, I know your motives are good, and I respect that, but I think you need to do some research into this situation, particularly about the history here. I think that will answer your questions.
Fair enough.

[Fager Fan]

Which Quality Road - the one who wins at GP or the one who looks rather ordinary everywhere else?
What's wrong with claimers? You got a bias where your money comes from?

I've got a bias against mediocre horses winning $10 million G1s.

You didn't answer my question -- do you think the DWC winner can go toe to toe with Quality Road in any dirt race at any track? I'd predict another 15-length lashing, similar to what he got from Well Armed last year.

[Dahoss9698]

Which Quality Road - the one who wins at GP or the one who looks rather ordinary everywhere else?
What's wrong with claimers? You got a bias where your money comes from?

Maybe I'm thinking of a different Quality Road, but he wasn't exactly ordinary breaking his maiden at Aqueduct. And his sprint race at Saratoga wasn't really ordinary either.

[Tom]

Especially horses coming in from Santa Anita where the Pro Ride is closer to turf than any other synthetic surface.

We will never know how many potential starts never were able to show their stuff because they hated Pro Ride. I Want Revenge would be the best example of hating Pro Ride and loving dirt.

So aside from the fluke race by MTB, POTN wins the derby. I don't see IWR hating poly - he won on it, ran a few good races behind POTH on it, then improved on dirt. Cigar did the same thing grass to dirt. I the owners and trainer are not bright enough to ralize thier horses dirt bred andnot poly bred, or bred for both, then don't blam that on the surface - blame it on the connections.

[affirmedny]

As I am learning, in a game where there are virtually no sure things, there is one sure thing. If Andy Beyer or Steve Crist write an article, there will always be a fraction of people that are totally unable to put aside their own personal jealousy to actually read the article for what it says.

The conversation always turns into an accusation that either man is a sore loser, Beyer and the Derby,etc. The new one is Crist is jealous. Jealous of what? Hasn't he carved out a pretty nice niche for himself?

The thing about guys like Beyer and Crist is they write about stuff that horseplayers care about. There are enough guys out there writing puff pieces. If we had more guys like them writing, the game would be in much better shape IMO.
the sharpest post I've read in a long time.

[andymays]

So aside from the fluke race by MTB, POTN wins the derby. I don't see IWR hating poly - he won on it, ran a few good races behind POTH on it, then improved on dirt. Cigar did the same thing grass to dirt. I the owners and trainer are not bright enough to ralize thier horses dirt bred andnot poly bred, or bred for both, then don't blam that on the surface - blame it on the connections.


Tom, I Want Revenge handled Hollywoods Cushion because it's more like dirt than any other synthetic surface. According to his trainer, owner, and everyone else familiar with him he hated Pro Ride.

Your a smart guy Tom but on this one (I Want Revenge) you don't know what you're talking about. Not even close.

[Tom]

I've got a bias against mediocre horses winning $10 million G1s.

You didn't answer my question -- do you think the DWC winner can go toe to toe with Quality Road in any dirt race at any track? I'd predict another 15-length lashing, similar to what he got from Well Armed last year.

Why should he have to race on dirt? If QR is so good, let HIM race on the tapeta over there. QR could have gone there this year but chose to stay in the barn. You make strong arguments as long you have everything your way.

[boogazie]

It's hilarious how everyone is bashing on Gloria De Campaeo as a "mediocre" horse? You'd think he'd never won an important race like the Singapore Airlines Group 1 in Hong Kong beating a classy group of horse... I guess if it's not held on good old American dirt, it's worthless right?

Christ is showing his own ignorance by saying stating that the result could have been drawn out of a hat. Gloria De Campaeo winning was not an unforeseen result. If Christ doesn't like synthetics then that's fine with me, but saying that the winner could be "drawn out of a hat" is disrespectful.

Either way Gloria De Campaeo winner of a very good Group 1 on Turf at 25-1, while Richard's Kid winner G1 winner over Einstein at 7-1. Keep it up please :lol:

[andymays]

It's hilarious how everyone is bashing on Gloria De Campaeo as a "mediocre" horse? You'd think he'd never won an important race like the Singapore Airlines Group 1 in Hong Kong beating a classy group of horse... I guess if it's not held on good old American dirt, it's worthless right?

Christ is showing his own ignorance by saying stating that the result could have been drawn out of a hat. Gloria De Campaeo winning was not an unforeseen result. If Christ doesn't like synthetics then that's fine with me, but saying that the winner could be "drawn out of a hat" is disrespectful.
Either way Gloria De Campaeo winner of a very good Group 1 on Turf at 25-1, while Richard's Kid winner G1 winner over Einstein at 7-1. Keep it up please :lol:


He's absolutely dissing synthetic surfaces and he's poking fun at the people that like them.

It's pretty obvious.

[Indulto]

Yeah, one day of playing a track he never looks at is the correct barometer of his skills as a player.

And, of course, this has a great deal to do with the article he wrote yesterday.

If you're a horseplayer you are lucky Steve Crist exists.You also get credit for consistency and predictability as well.;)

Crist is probably the most insightful observer, intelligent communicator. and influential hprselayer to ever look over a keyboard. His books and columns are always an excellent read. His opinions – right or wrong – are always important because of his impact on DRF readers. For better or worse, this is the man who institutionalized Beyer Speed Figures, and is thus tied to their creator who was an early critic of synthetic surfaces, and late adjuster of his data regarding them.

I don’t know whether he’s right or wrong in this case, but I can't dismiss the possibility that he has a vested interest in non-proliferation of synthetic surfaces which some believe undermine the effectiveness of BSFs.

[Tom]

Tom, I Want Revenge handled Hollywoods Cushion because it's more like dirt than any other synthetic surface. According to his trainer, owner, and everyone else familiar with him he hated Pro Ride.

Your a smart guy Tom but on this one (I Want Revenge) you don't know what you're talking about. Not even close.

He ran twice as SA, both times came in thirds, once in a G2 to POTN.
I guess in your book, Andy, that is hating the surface. :bang:
You are obsessed with poly. The number of threads you have started about it proves that. Hardly objective thinking. You look at poly and then looks for ways to bash it. You are not the least bit objective. Boring, yes, objective, no.:D

And Dahoss, I said he sounded like a sore loser. I saw nothing in his article was any kind benefit to racing, but I was not aware that were not allowed to disagree with the opinion of the Great and Powerful Oz.

[Dahoss9698]

The hypocrisy meter just broke.

[andymays]

He ran twice as SA, both times came in thirds, once in a G2 to POTN.
I guess in your book, Andy, that is hating the surface. :bang:
You are obsessed with poly. The number of threads you have started about it proves that. Hardly objective thinking. You look at poly and then looks for ways to bash it. You are not the least bit objective. Boring, yes, objective, no.:D


Tom, WTF is with you?

How wrong do you want to be on this?

If you want to rewrite history and disagree with the connections and everyone else that knows the truth then go ahead and waste bandwidth.


Yes, I hate Poly. Is that a news flash? :lol:

[joanied]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboguy
everyone that got interviewed yesterday at mey dan were asked how they felt about this racetrack. everyone responded that they loved it.</B>






[B]


I wonder what the penalty is over there if you say you don't like it. :)

I was wondering the same thing:D
Really, think about that for a moment...it's like being invited to dinner and you hate the food that's served...but when the host asks you how you liked it...are you really gonna say it was awful :bang:

As for Tapeta track saftey...a few pull ups and a break down...yeah right:rolleyes:

[Tom]

Thread #1....how many more are coming?

Booooring.

[andymays]

Thread #1....how many more are coming?

Booooring.


We can tell how bored you are by the thread. :D

[Dahoss9698]

Tom, you can disagree with whoever you like. Spare me the Oz nonsense. But, for you of all people to question someone's ability to be an objective thinker is hilarious. Come on, who are you trying to fool?

Aren't you the same guy who has railed on synthetics?

[Charlie D]

You'd think he'd never won an important race like the Singapore Airlines Group 1 in Hong Kong beating a classy group of horse





If i put my mind to it, i could probaby name numerous Eclipse, Derby, Arc, Irish Champion, King George, Prince of Wales horses in last couple of years that would demolish all of them and i think being able to do that, shows how "Classy" the Singapore Airlines G1 was

[Tom]

Personally, I prefer dirt., I would love SA go back to dirt.,
But that was not what I was posting about. Meydan is THEIR track, THEIR money, THEIR call. Andy want to force his personal opinions onto the
world at large. I took that from Crist as well.

The fact I prefer dirt is moot - I bet in the real world and I have learned to adapt to the fact that horses are going to race over poly and come to dirt. I see a lot of predictable winners. I think horses can improve a lot. So I can make money spotting them.

But come on, some of the comments in this thread border on the ridiculous. The horse just win the biggest race ever and some nut thinks has has come here and run over dirt against a dirt horse. Trying to be objective and put the race in its context - it is not our business what they do there. Maybe Crist could fork over 10 mil and riun a ral race of champioins here on the inner at Aquecduct where real champions perform. :D

[andymays]

Personally, I prefer dirt., I would love SA go back to dirt.,
But that was not what I was posting about. Meydan is THEIR track, THEIR money, THEIR call. Andy want to force his personal opinions onto the
world at large. I took that from Crist as well.

The fact I prefer dirt is moot - I bet in the real world and I have learned to adapt to the fact that horses are going to race over poly and come to dirt. I see a lot of predictable winners. I think horses can improve a lot. So I can make money spotting them.

But come on, some of the comments in this thread border on the ridiculous. The horse just win the biggest race ever and some nut thinks has has come here and run over dirt against a dirt horse. Trying to be objective and put the race in its context - it is not our business what they do there. Maybe Crist could fork over 10 mil and riun a ral race of champioins here on the inner at Aquecduct where real champions perform. :D


How in the hell am I going to force my opinions on anyone? When you voice an opinion are you "forcing" it on us?

Most of the posts I've ever made on the subject had a excerpt from an article to back up what I've said. How many times do you support your opinion with another source? :lol:

By the way if I could force my opinion on everyone I would. ;)

[the little guy]

If i put my mind to it, i could probaby name numerous Eclipse, Derby, Arc, Irish Champion, King George, Prince of Wales horses in last couple of years that would demolish all of them and i think being able to do that, shows how "Classy" the Singapore Airlines G1 was


I certainly hope so.

Then again....has the King George recovered yet from Hard Buck's second place finish? I'm surprised it wasn't dropped to a Group 3 after that.

[thaskalos]

As I am learning, in a game where there are virtually no sure things, there is one sure thing. If Andy Beyer or Steve Crist write an article, there will always be a fraction of people that are totally unable to put aside their own personal jealousy to actually read the article for what it says.

The conversation always turns into an accusation that either man is a sore loser, Beyer and the Derby,etc. The new one is Crist is jealous. Jealous of what? Hasn't he carved out a pretty nice niche for himself?

The thing about guys like Beyer and Crist is they write about stuff that horseplayers care about. There are enough guys out there writing puff pieces. If we had more guys like them writing, the game would be in much better shape IMO. The vast majority of us respect Steven Crist a great deal...but in this case his argument is hard to understand. He says that the "tapeta" has reduced the World Cup of racing to a spin of a wheel...and then he admits that BIGGER upsets occured the same day on the turf course. Why the attack on the tapeta then? He states that some of our biggest races have also been won by huge longshots. Why, then, is this race any different? How much can we read into the results of one day, at a track that none of us follow with any degree of regularity? Couldn't this be just one of those days at the track, where predictable results are nowhere to be found? Don't we have enough of those days in this country too?

[Dahoss9698]

Personally, I prefer dirt., I would love SA go back to dirt.,
But that was not what I was posting about. Meydan is THEIR track, THEIR money, THEIR call. Andy want to force his personal opinions onto the
world at large. I took that from Crist as well.

The fact I prefer dirt is moot - I bet in the real world and I have learned to adapt to the fact that horses are going to race over poly and come to dirt. I see a lot of predictable winners. I think horses can improve a lot. So I can make money spotting them.

But come on, some of the comments in this thread border on the ridiculous. The horse just win the biggest race ever and some nut thinks has has come here and run over dirt against a dirt horse. Trying to be objective and put the race in its context - it is not our business what they do there. Maybe Crist could fork over 10 mil and riun a ral race of champioins here on the inner at Aquecduct where real champions perform. :D

So because it happened there no one can have an opinion on it? No wait, we can have an opinion as long as it is a favorable one.

That makes sense. My objective opinion is the race was an eyesore. But to show you how objective I am, I thought much of the racing at Aqueduct yesterday was an eyesore as well.

[Tread]

Tom, I'll come to your defense here. It absolutely was a sour grapes article written by someone who hates synthetics and can't handle the fact that there are no super-horses on the surface and in fact are numerous evenly matched horses.

Christ's arguments on Gloria de Campo are illogical. He argues that because GdC lost ON DIRT in some grade 1s by open lengths that he should have lost by open lengths on a sythetic as well. As though the 2 surfaces are the exact same thing, which they are not anywhere near.

GdC had a thorograph figure that put him right there with the rest of the field over synthetic surfaces, although I readily admit not using him simply because there were so many horses with similar figures I had to make a cut somewhere and for whatever reason did not choose him.

This is a common problem in handicapping these races on synthetics. There are so many horses capable of winning the race, it comes down to trip, luck and other intangibles like that. The lazy would rather openly complain that the surface sucks rather than embrace the challenge and the higher prices/rewards that come with it.

And has already been mentioned, there were plenty of shockers on the turf too. So trying to use the WC as an example of why synth sucks is just beyond stupid. But I guess some people, like Christ and the OP, will use any excuse to attack it, even if the excuse is fundamentally flawed.

[DeanT]

I like Crist, of course, but I wonder about his thoughts on this horse. He was second last year, and even the trainer said this:

"The other horse finished so fast that I didn't know if we had won. This horse is different when he comes here and feels the sun on his back."

Second on dirt last year in the same race, first this year, an excuse two years ago. What is the big surprise with this horse racing well there? Am I missing something?

[the little guy]

He was second by 14 lengths.

Then again, some people think Pioneer of the Nile ran well in last year's Derby after losing by a pole because he was second.

[Tom]

I like Crist, of course, but I wonder about his thoughts on this horse. He was second last year, and even the trainer said this:



Second on dirt last year in the same race, first this year, an excuse two years ago. What is the big surprise with this horse racing well there? Am I missing something?

Yes. A bias. ;)

[boogazie]

If i put my mind to it, i could probaby name numerous Eclipse, Derby, Arc, Irish Champion, King George, Prince of Wales horses in last couple of years that would demolish all of them and i think being able to do that, shows how "Classy" the Singapore Airlines G1 was

So instead of an American, you are a European who overvalues your own races. Just because you live in your part of the world, it doesn't mean that there isn't any good racing elsewhere.

Notice that horses from South Africa and Hong Kong won races at Dubai on World Cup day. You probably think that Sacred Kingdom would lose to European sprinters too right because his races are "classless". Then again, you probably don't know who Sacred Kingdom is because you are so focused in your corner of the world.

[Charlie D]

So instead of an American, you are a European who overvalues your own races. Just because you live in your part of the world, it doesn't mean that there isn't any good racing elsewhere.

Notice that horses from South Africa and Hong Kong won races at Dubai on World Cup day. You probably think that Sacred Kingdom would lose to European sprinters too right because his races are "classless". Then again, you probably don't know who Sacred Kingdom is because you are so focused in your corner of the world.

I don't over value anything, but i do know that if i put my mind to it i could name mumerous horses that have run in those races that would demolish DWC winner.


And i do know know who Sacred Kingdom is, he is the horse that came from the Far East and finished in 5th in Golden Jubilee. to a Euro Sprinter that has trouble winning at other tracks.

I could give you my opinion why i think this happened, but i won't as you seem to be an expert on International horse racing.

[Fager Fan]

Why should he have to race on dirt? If QR is so good, let HIM race on the tapeta over there. QR could have gone there this year but chose to stay in the barn. You make strong arguments as long you have everything your way.

So, racing on one of the racing surfaces that we've bred for for centuries is "having everything my way"?

This race has always been on dirt. It has a new surface that was supposed to replace dirt, hence why I said, "Let's see him do it on dirt." Yet this horse would get decimated by our so-so dirt horses (see Well Armed last year, beating him by a dozen lengths), much less our best dirt horses.

This surface isn't dirt, it doesn't play like dirt, it's not any safer than dirt, so why are we even running on it? We don't need a third surface.

But if you want to argue that we do need a third surface for some unknown reason, then I'll be willing to compromise: put back in the dirt tracks, add synth tracks, and then run races on all three, and run championship-calibre races (such as the BC and DWC) on all three.

[broadreach]

I'm with Crist. The top 10 finished within 3 lengths of each other. From now on, luck in running will be much more important than before to determine the supposed 'world's best'.

[boogazie]

So you know about Sacred's Kingdom's race in Dubai but I was referring more to his races in Hong Kong on turf. (Oops forgot to say turf in my original post). I was using the horse as an example of wrong dismissing grade 1 races just because they are not in Europe.

You named only European races so I came to the conclusion that you overvalued them. You could have easily included BC Turf which proved to be a very good indication of class for the 1 1/2 mile Turf race in Dubai.

Just to be clear, are you saying that you agree with Crist that Gloria De Campaeo and other horses (outsiders) who won in Dubai were horses that could only be guessed as winners by spinning a wheel. Because that was what I was arguing against in my original post.

[DeanT]

He was second by 14 lengths.

Then again, some people think Pioneer of the Nile ran well in last year's Derby after losing by a pole because he was second.
Sure, but he beat 12 other horses, and did lose to the highest money winning thoroughbred in history. He raced well last year.

[the little guy]

I don't over value anything, but i do know that if i put my mind to it i could name mumerous horses that have run in those races that would demolish DWC winner.


And i do know know who Sacred Kingdom is, he is the horse that came from the Far East and finished in 5th in Golden Jubilee. to a Euro Sprinter that has trouble winning at other tracks.

I could give you my opinion why i think this happened, but i won't as you seem to be an expert on International horse racing.


Question...

Obviously I agree with you about the European races you named, and the overall quality of the winners and competitors in those races over the years, but, at least recently, aren't the Euro sprinters relatively mediocre with Austrailian runners, if not those in the Far East, considered at least somewhat superior?

I realize this is cherry picking, but look what Cannonball, who's obviously no superstar, did at Royal Ascot....as well as the success Vaz, a mediocre horse here for Bill Mott, achieved a few years back. Of course there have been exceptions ( Dayjur, as well as Sheik Albadou's obvious dirt abilities ) but overall am I wrong?

[the little guy]

Sure, but he beat 12 other horses, and did lose to the highest money winning thoroughbred in history. He raced well last year.


It was obviously a skewed result last year, and sure he beat a bunch of horses, but he is hardly a horse that SHOULD be even considered worthy of winning a race billed as a World Championship event.

People keep talking about him " running second " in the World Cup last year...yet ignore that he lost by significantly less ( 9 1/4 lengths ) in last year's Arlington Million ( behind Gio Ponti ) yet finished 7th ( of eight ).

Let's stop pretending he is a horse of any kind of exceptional quality. Yesterday's World Cup was an ugly race.

[Charlie D]

TLG

That is why i like you. You know your racing

[boogazie]

Little Guy, good post, but you have to take the race in context.

Given the scenario that there were no other pace setters in the race and the fact that he had won another big race under similar circumstances from the lead, and almost held in a local prep from the lead. It was not a total surprise that he won and Crist is wrong to put it off a total "random" event.

I'm not sure that the winner of those European races, given the pace scenario, would have fared better.

[the little guy]

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume it would have been a significantly different race on dirt with far different competitors.

[thaskalos]

It was obviously a skewed result last year, and sure he beat a bunch of horses, but he is hardly a horse that SHOULD be even considered worthy of winning a race billed as a World Championship event.

People keep talking about him " running second " in the World Cup last year...yet ignore that he lost by significantly less ( 9 1/4 lengths ) in last year's Arlington Million ( behind Gio Ponti ) yet finished 7th ( of eight ).

Let's stop pretending he is a horse of any kind of exceptional quality. Yesterday's World Cup was an ugly race. Betting Gulfstream, Oaklawn, and the Fairgrounds on a regular bases, I have seen more than my share of "ugly" races, and I am less inclined to critisize a racetrack for unformful outcomes. It is an unfortunate fact of the current times that, for whatever the reason, longshots play a more prominent role now than they did years ago.

In years past, when a 50-1 shot won a race, it was when the pace collapsed, and the longshot would charge from behind and win by a nose. Today, they often take command at the top of the stretch, and they win by five...

[JustRalph]

Betting Gulfstream, Oaklawn, and the Fairgrounds on a regular bases, I have seen more than my share of "ugly" races, and I am less inclined to critisize a racetrack for unformful outcomes. It is an unfortunate fact of the current times that, for whatever the reason, longshots play a more prominent role now than they did years ago.

In years past, when a 50-1 shot won a race, it was when the pace collapsed, and the longshot would charge from behind and win by a nose. Today, they often take command at the top of the stretch, and they win by five...

My data doesn't show that.......not even close. Anybody got an up to date database that can run this? Mine are all from last year

[thaskalos]

My data doesn't show that.......not even close. Anybody got an up to date database that can run this? Mine are all from last year What does your data show? That Oaklawn, Gulfstream and the Fairgrounds are running according to form?

[Tom]

So, racing on one of the racing surfaces that we've bred for for centuries is "having everything my way"?





Duh. Yes. Should the Arc winner come here and challenge at Belmont on dirt?

The time for challenges was for QR to go there and race, but his people chose to stay in the stall, where the top American horses have spent an inordinate amount of time this year. What is the big friggin deal about dirt that only dirt decides champioins? Everyone whines about the poly bias, but dirt is wores. The horse showed up and won the richest race ever and was a very palyabel horse. QR waas a throw out if he showed up, which he did not do.

Dirt might the only surface worht talking about here, but the race was run there, not here. As the winner of a 10 mil race, I don't see wehre he has to prove anything. The rest should go to him.

[Dahoss9698]

Duh. Yes. Should the Arc winner come here and challenge at Belmont on dirt?

The time for challenges was for QR to go there and race, but his people chose to stay in the stall, where the top American horses have spent an inordinate amount of time this year. What is the big friggin deal about dirt that only dirt decides champioins? Everyone whines about the poly bias, but dirt is wores. The horse showed up and won the richest race ever and was a very palyabel horse. QR waas a throw out if he showed up, which he did not do.

Dirt might the only surface worht talking about here, but the race was run there, not here. As the winner of a 10 mil race, I don't see wehre he has to prove anything. The rest should go to him.

I get it now. Because they threw a bunch of money at the race, it means more. It doesn't really matter who or what is running, if the purse is high, the race means more.

You must love the Delta Jackpot.

[tzipi]

I get it now. Because they threw a bunch of money at the race, it means more. It doesn't really matter who or what is running, if the purse is high, the race means more.

You must love the Delta Jackpot.


It's like the BC Classic. Alot of people were talking about winning the 5 million dollar race but alot of the horses hadn't even won a G1 race! The top competition were pure turf horses. Gio Ponti never would've run in the Classic at Belmont or CD. Summer Bird was a dirt horse. Colonel John who people were talking about hadn't even won a dirt race in over a year. Zenny ran well but it was FAR from the greatest BC classic field. So in a way the purses do skewer things.
I don't think the DC is a no factor race but it's also not the greatest field assembled always.

[Tom]

The race was open to all comers, and it was on the schedule of a lot of dirt those in past years. Their limited abilities prevented them from showing up - not the winner's problem. He showed up and won. He has nothing to prove.

Can you get it through your head that dirt is not the king of the world?
It is here, but the race was not here. So all your chest pounding about
proving himself on dirt is ridiculous. He proved he can come out of his stall and ruin - more than our two top horses can say for the last year.
It was a great day of racing over there - and we were allowed to watch and bet it. Isn't THAT good for racing? Whine whine whine.

[Fager Fan]

Duh. Yes. Should the Arc winner come here and challenge at Belmont on dirt?

The time for challenges was for QR to go there and race, but his people chose to stay in the stall, where the top American horses have spent an inordinate amount of time this year. What is the big friggin deal about dirt that only dirt decides champioins? Everyone whines about the poly bias, but dirt is wores. The horse showed up and won the richest race ever and was a very palyabel horse. QR waas a throw out if he showed up, which he did not do.

He didn't show up because the race wasn't on dirt, the same way a lot of BC horses didn't show up because there were no races on dirt, and the same way he's taking a break because there's no G1 routes on dirt for older males until June.

The big friggin deal about dirt is that the U.S. has produced the greatest number (by far) of the greatest racehorses in the history of the sport, and I'm not content to sit by and see it all destroyed, all due to an unnecessary change of surface foisted upon us by those who are making millions of dollars on these surfaces.

[andymays]

He didn't show up because the race wasn't on dirt, the same way a lot of BC horses didn't show up because there were no races on dirt, and the same way he's taking a break because there's no G1 routes on dirt for older males until June.

The big friggin deal about dirt is that the U.S. has produced the greatest number (by far) of the greatest racehorses in the history of the sport, and I'm not content to sit by and see it all destroyed, all due to an unnecessary change of surface foisted upon us by those who are making millions of dollars on these surfaces.

Welcome to the Board Fager Fan! :ThmbUp:

You got it right! :ThmbUp:

[Deepsix]

Gee, somehow I knew some would agree. lol!!

[Dahoss9698]

The race was open to all comers, and it was on the schedule of a lot of dirt those in past years. Their limited abilities prevented them from showing up - not the winner's problem. He showed up and won. He has nothing to prove.

Can you get it through your head that dirt is not the king of the world?
It is here, but the race was not here. So all your chest pounding about
proving himself on dirt is ridiculous. He proved he can come out of his stall and ruin - more than our two top horses can say for the last year.
It was a great day of racing over there - and we were allowed to watch and bet it. Isn't THAT good for racing? Whine whine whine.

Please point me to my chest pounding about proving himself on dirt. I never said he has to prove himself on anything. You like to make stuff up as you go huh?

[andymays]

Gee, somehow I knew some would agree. lol!!


What is it about the bolded part of Fager Fans quote that you disagree with? Or do you agree with it?

[PaceAdvantage]

HK, Oz, Japan's top races all run on synth tooJapan? Really? I was looking up Japanese tracks on the web and everyone I looked at listed a "dirt" course. Is it real dirt, or synthetics over there?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Japan? Really? I was looking up Japanese tracks on the web and everyone I looked at listed a "dirt" course. Is it real dirt, or synthetics over there?

The Japan Cup is over the dirt, or Summer Bird's connections were fooled into flying him over for it (injuried anyway).

[PaceAdvantage]

I can't dismiss the possibility that he has a vested interest in non-proliferation of synthetic surfaces which some believe undermine the effectiveness of BSFs.Key word being "some."

In fact, it should be a very small "some" after the mighty big SUM the Beyer figs brought forth when they crushed the Breeders' Cup last year (over a synthetic surface in case you forgot).

[the little guy]

Key word being "some."

In fact, it should be a very small "some" after the mighty big SUM the Beyer figs brought forth when they crushed the Breeders' Cup last year (over a synthetic surface in case you forgot).


You wasted a brain cell on that one?

That was even idiotic for Indulto. Trying to follow the logic through almost made my head explode.

[WinterTriangle]

If Andy Beyer or Steve Crist write an article, there will always be a fraction of people that are totally unable to put aside their own personal jealousy

The jealousy seems to be with Crist.

Like I said, calling Meydan "gaudy" is the same as calling Japan JRA "gaudy". Ever seen the grounds in Japan, the big state-of-the-art screens, the training centers and the actual track? Gorgeous.

Just because we don't have those things, or don't care to give our customers a great environment/destination to go to, doesn't mean we need to knock it when found elsewhere.

I guess it partly explains why racing at Japan you don't see empty seats. Well supported, and a real nice destination for families. Japan has little playgrounds for the kids, nice restaurants, etc. at their tracks, too. In other words, it gets people out to the track, it's a family outing.

Dubai looked like a pretty good crowd to me yesterday. And I've read nobody who didn't say it wasn't gorgeous. So nice surroundings to Crist is "gaudy". Guess he's not used to being in nice place.

[PaceAdvantage]

OK, I'll do it:

It's spelled CRIST for those scoring at home. Note the lack of the letter "H" on the official scorecard.

Between folks who spell Crist CHRIST and Lukas LUCAS, it's enough to drive this fellow out of his mind. Two of the biggest names in the game and self-professed fans of the sport can't get it right.

If I went to a baseball board and spelled it "Micky Mantel", you think I wouldn't be met with a reaction? :lol:

To me, here, that's the same offense... :bang:

[Saratoga_Mike]

The jealousy seems to be with Crist.

Like I said, calling Meydan "gaudy" is the same as calling Japan JRA "gaudy". Ever seen the grounds there, the bit state-of-the-art screens, the training centers and the actual track? Gorgeous.

Just because we don't have those things, or don't care to give our customers a great environment/destination to go to, doesn't mean we need to knock it when found elsewhere.

I guess it partly explains why racing at Japan you don't see one seat not taken. Well supported, and a real nice destination for families. Japan has little playgrounds for the kids, nice restaurants, etc. at their tracks, too. In other words, it gets people out to the track, it's a family outing.

Dubai looked like a pretty good crowd to me yesterday. And I've read nobody who didn't say it wasn't gorgeous. So nice surroundings to Crist is "gaudy". Guess he's not used to being in nice place.

You make Japanese racing sound like Arlington Park, so it must be nice! So is Steve Crist jealous of the new track, the people involved or some other entity?

[Ian Meyers]

Let's stop pretending he is a horse of any kind of exceptional quality. Yesterday's World Cup was an ugly race.

Unless you cashed it. ;)

The winner and the 2nd place finisher were as fast as anything else in that race. The problem was there were about 6 or 7 horses in the 106-109 range (on Beyer's scale). I got lucky and got the right result. It's not often when you key the 3 longest shots of seven contenders and they run 1-2-3.

But TLG's right, that was not a world class field to begin with and Gio Ponti, and Gitano Hernando didn't run to their best. I'm still not giving back the money...

[Saratoga_Mike]

OK, I'll do it:

It's spelled CRIST for those scoring at home. Note the lack of the letter "H" on the official scorecard.

Between folks who spell Crist CHRIST and Lukas LUCAS, it's enough to drive this fellow out of his mind. Two of the biggest names in the game and self-professed fans of the sport can't get it right.

If I went to a baseball board and spelled it "Micky Mantel", you think I wouldn't be met with a reaction? :lol:

To me, here, that's the same offense... :bang:

:lol:

[Relwob Owner]

He didn't show up because the race wasn't on dirt, the same way a lot of BC horses didn't show up because there were no races on dirt, and the same way he's taking a break because there's no G1 routes on dirt for older males until June.

The big friggin deal about dirt is that the U.S. has produced the greatest number (by far) of the greatest racehorses in the history of the sport, and I'm not content to sit by and see it all destroyed, all due to an unnecessary change of surface foisted upon us by those who are making millions of dollars on these surfaces.



Amen to that.........I think last year with RA and Zenyatta proved the negative effect synthetics have had on racing, specifically how hard it now is to get the best horses to meet and to be able to evaluate who is the best....

[Dahoss9698]

The jealousy seems to be with Crist.

Like I said, calling Meydan "gaudy" is the same as calling Japan JRA "gaudy". Ever seen the grounds in Japan, the big state-of-the-art screens, the training centers and the actual track? Gorgeous.

Just because we don't have those things, or don't care to give our customers a great environment/destination to go to, doesn't mean we need to knock it when found elsewhere.

I guess it partly explains why racing at Japan you don't see empty seats. Well supported, and a real nice destination for families. Japan has little playgrounds for the kids, nice restaurants, etc. at their tracks, too. In other words, it gets people out to the track, it's a family outing.

Dubai looked like a pretty good crowd to me yesterday. And I've read nobody who didn't say it wasn't gorgeous. So nice surroundings to Crist is "gaudy". Guess he's not used to being in nice place.

This might come as a surprise to you, but a lot of racing went on before you started following 2 years ago. Crist has seen it all, literally. Because he called the track gaudy, he's jealous of what exactly?

hard to believe they had a big crowd on their biggest day. What did you expect?

I love the knocking on our tracks. Seriously, how many tracks have you actually been to here in the states?

[WinterTriangle]

It was not a total surprise that he won and Crist is wrong to put it off a total "random" event.

And if he was a regular poster and came here to the dubai cup topic and said that yesterday after the race, he would have looked like an idiot.

There were several euro boards that liked the winner as well. I wish I could find the posts. Since some people did pick the winners, I find it sour grapes to call a race random just because you didn't see the possibilites.

Crist just doesn't seem very objective about dubai in general. He's making himself look like a sore loser, IMHO. He can't handicap it.....and he thinks its gaudy.

anything he has to say after that can't be taken seriously by me.

[Relwob Owner]

And if he was a regular poster and came here to the dubai cup topic and said that yesterday after the race, he would have looked like an idiot.

There were several euro boards that liked the winner as well. I wish I could find the posts. Since some people did pick the winners, I find it sour grapes to call a race random just because you didn't see the possibilites.

Crist just doesn't seem very objective about dubai in general. He's making himself look like a sore loser, IMHO. He can't handicap it.....and he thinks its gaudy.

anything he has to say after that can't be taken seriously by me.



I think anyone who rips on Crist should read "Betting on Myself" and would change their minds.....the guy has forgotten more than most people know about racing IMO.

His article didnt seem like sour grapes or him being a sore loser at all....if he had talked about horses that would have won had it not been on synthetics, maybe.....all it was what an opinion that synthetics have now bled over to the richest race in the world and how that will further damage the sport and the ability to evaulate the horses involved in it.....

[Charlie D]

PA


http://japanracing.jp/en/japancupdirt/course.html#content

[Saratoga_Mike]

PA


http://japanracing.jp/en/japancupdirt/course.html#content

Are you equating loose sand with a synthetic surface?

[the little guy]

The only thing a poster is really saying when they claim that, in this case, Crist is writing his piece out of sour grapes is that they, the poster, are a poor loser....as they see an author as writing for that reason because that is what they would do.

[WinterTriangle]

This might come as a surprise to you, but a lot of racing went on before you started following 2 years ago. Crist has seen it all, literally.

Okay. Japan and Dubai tracks suck.

BTW, I like how you had to put in a little personal attack in your post to me. That always makes me feel good, mostly because it puts you in the position of a horse losing ground in the stretch and feeling desperate.

Knock off the personal insults, you used to do that for a while then stopped, now it looks like you're back to it.

You have no idea who I am, or what my immersion in this sport is, except the little I tell you. I'm quite satisfied with my handicapping abilities at this point, but I can't comment on all the races I didn't play years ago. You haven't exactly wowed me with your great knowledge, if you want to know the truth.

Crist has seen it all, yes. He still has his own unique perspective on his experiences, as we all do. I've seen him fail, just as I've seen him succeed. I am not a worshipper of anyone, at DRF, here, or anywhere else. I trust my OWN perceptions and my own eyes, but I learn from others, which only adds to my experience.

[Charlie D]

Are you equating loose sand with a synthetic surface?


Not equating anything Mike, i'm posting a link to course information for PA :)

[WinterTriangle]

I think anyone who rips on Crist should read "Betting on Myself"

Ripping on Crist? Huh?

I disagreed with his opinion in ONE article. :lol:

Which apparently exposes me to no end of personal insults and sarcasm. :)

I read "Betting on Myself". Like I said, I trust my own perceptions and experiences. I do believe Crist started out that way, or he wouldn't have written the book, yes?

[Show Me the Wire]

The word "Gaudy" set a negative tone to the article, making the article more of a hit piece than objective journalism.

[Relwob Owner]

The word "Gaudy" set a negative tone to the article, making the article more of a hit piece than objective journalism.


That word appears in the 4th of a 5 paragraph article so it is tough to "set the tone" so late..... how does one word out of a whole article make it a "hit piece"?


The tone had nothing to do with a criticism of the "gaudyness" of the track at all....his tone and point was set early on, as he made solid points regarding the horse who won, comparing his finishes on dirt in previous years to his finish on synthetics. I feel like too many people saw this article as a comment on what happened in that race, rather than his main point which seems to be that having it on synthetics sucks, which it does IMO

[Dahoss9698]

Okay. Japan and Dubai tracks suck.

BTW, I like how you had to put in a little personal attack in your post to me. That always makes me feel good, mostly because it puts you in the position of a horse losing ground in the stretch and feeling desperate.

Knock off the personal insults, you used to do that for a while then stopped, now it looks like you're back to it.

You have no idea who I am, or what my immersion in this sport is, except the little I tell you. I'm quite satisfied with my handicapping abilities at this point, but I can't comment on all the races I didn't play years ago. You haven't exactly wowed me with your great knowledge, if you want to know the truth.

Crist has seen it all, yes. He still has his own unique perspective on his experiences, as we all do. I've seen him fail, just as I've seen him succeed. I am not a worshipper of anyone, at DRF, here, or anywhere else. I trust my OWN perceptions and my own eyes, but I learn from others, which only adds to my experience.

Here we go, how did I personally insult you?

YOU told me you just started following 2 years ago. YOU told me you don't bet much. Am I making this up?

I'll ask again, what is Crist jealous of?

[Dahoss9698]

And if he was a regular poster and came here to the dubai cup topic and said that yesterday after the race, he would have looked like an idiot.

There were several euro boards that liked the winner as well. I wish I could find the posts. Since some people did pick the winners, I find it sour grapes to call a race random just because you didn't see the possibilites.

Crist just doesn't seem very objective about dubai in general. He's making himself look like a sore loser, IMHO. He can't handicap it.....and he thinks its gaudy.

anything he has to say after that can't be taken seriously by me.

Steve Crist can't be taken seriously by YOU?

I give up.

[WinterTriangle]

Steve Crist can't be taken seriously by YOU?

I give up.

Dahoss, hear me this time, okay?

"gaudy" gave me trouble digesting the article, as it all seemed colored with a bias.

WHY are you attributing sweeping, general sentiments to me, about Crist, when I have gone on record as saying I disagreed with what he had to say in *this* article?

It's very dishonest arguing to put words in my mouth.

So, let's review:
1) I believe Crist's article is biased.
2) I believe Crist's general body of work, as a writer, is brilliant, as are his insights and perceptions.
3) I don't "always" agree with him.
4) Crist strongly dislikes synthetics, and those who also strongly dislike synthetics will agree with what he says. I don't love synthetics, but I'm not strongly opposed to them. Therefore, I don't always agree.

[cj]

Dahoss, hear me this time, okay?

Once he said "gaudy" I had trouble reading after that, as it all seemed colored with a bias.



As was mentioned earlier, it was at the end of the 4th paragraph of a 5 paragraph article. What is so bad about gaudy anyway?

Def: brilliantly or excessively showy.

How could anyone think it is anything but gaudy?

[Indulto]

I am wondering if anyone at NYRA would like to help lobby towards making Saratoga's takes more favorable. As you know, the track must ask for a reduction for it to succeed (like Mr. Gural did at Tioga), because customers do not rank too high on the list.

If you know of someone at NYRA who would like to help, please let us know. I am sure you as a horseplayer, like us, would like to make egregious 26% takeouts in some pools at Saratoga a thing of the past.Outsider requests for information in a public forum
Are deemed by some to lack decorum
Insiders become very antsy
When prompted for transparency
It frequently seems to floor ‘em

In the shadow of yet another NYRA layoff
Income independent of a mutuel payoff
Won’t be affected by state-controlled takeout
But rather connected to political shake out
tlg’s case, therefore, HANA should stay off

Still it seems a shame
After dropping name after name
When asked for a reference
His refusal with unusual deference
Was accompanied by an exigency claim.

One way to reach NYRA’s boardroom faction
Is to suport the horsemen’s call for state action
New Jersey is courting customers in plain sight
It’s time for the legislators to see the light
And use Tioga-to-Toga takeout-lowering traction.

[Tom]

The big friggin deal about dirt is that the U.S. has produced the greatest number (by far) of the greatest racehorses in the history of the sport, and I'm not content to sit by and see it all destroyed, all due to an unnecessary change of surface foisted upon us by those who are making millions of dollars on these surfaces.

Exactly my point. The race WAS NOT IN THE US. No one foisted shit on you - you were free to ignore the hole damn card. But to sit here and think YOU are the one to dictate what other countries do with their racing is the height of arrogance. How about your and Crist cough up 10 mil and fill in the gap this has left here?

[WinterTriangle]

What is so bad about gaudy anyway?

Def: brilliantly or excessively showy.

As an adjective, in the English language, it is not complimentary at all.

From 4 different dictionaries:
Tastelessly showy
Showy in a tasteless or vulgar way
Ostentatiously or tastelessly ornamented
Gay, bright, or colourful in a crude or vulgar manner
Bright and showy, but lacking in good taste
Cheaply brilliant and ornate

It was unnecessary for Crist to include the adjective in his article, and I still fail to see what purpose it served.



(Unless you're writing for the interior designing set in a fashion magazine. That's where talk about gaudy horribly overpriced stuff is appropriate, like the white house china that jackie, nancy and laura bought. :lol: )

[Fager Fan]

Exactly my point. The race WAS NOT IN THE US. No one foisted shit on you - you were free to ignore the hole damn card. But to sit here and think YOU are the one to dictate what other countries do with their racing is the height of arrogance. How about your and Crist cough up 10 mil and fill in the gap this has left here?

The DWC was planned to bring together, as best as possible, the best dirt horses and turf horses in the world, similar to our BC. So, how'd that work out this year for them?

Some men in power in U.S. racing became the NA distributor for polytrack, and though Michael Dickinson tried to sell his surface for the better part of 2 decades, it was only when some men in Lexington stood to make millions that the sh** was indeed foisted upon all of us.

The Sheikh misjudged the direction of American racing, and installed it at his new track.

The end result is that we've now had two Breeders' Cups and one Dubai World Cup of redundant, watered down turf racing. And while I care a whole lot less about the DWC than I do the BC, I have every right to be irritated at the people who foisted this crap on us, and to be irritated at people like you who preach to us that we should get over our dirt racing and biggest stars being removed from the biggest days in the sport.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

A respected blogger destroys Crist and his numerous inaccurate facts and statements

http://thedresdenfile.blogspot.com/2010/03/passion-of-steven.html

I love this the most...especially the part in bold.....

"First: Yesterday evening, I left the following notice on Crist Blog:
"Allybar was 1-for-7 in graded stakes of any kind. He won the G3 Maktoum Challenge Rd2 over this course in February. He also finished on the board in 4 of his 5 French group starts on the turf and was beaten all of a length when fourth over this course and distance 3 weeks ago. Yeah, he really came out of nowhere."
It takes a special kind of dickishness to block this comment and not even correct a clear error of fact in the post. Of course, correcting this mistake would undermine Crist's argument, and given that Allybar also finished on the board in 5 of 7 group races, it never was much of an argument to begin with. It is common these days for so called "political commentators" to shamelessly contort reality into the shape that best fits their narrative, but for a racing essayist to slip into this kind of propagandistic rabble-rousing is more than a bit questionable."

A special kind of dickishness.......priceless!

[David-LV]

He didn't show up because the race wasn't on dirt, the same way a lot of BC horses didn't show up because there were no races on dirt, and the same way he's taking a break because there's no G1 routes on dirt for older males until June.

The big friggin deal about dirt is that the U.S. has produced the greatest number (by far) of the greatest racehorses in the history of the sport, and I'm not content to sit by and see it all destroyed, all due to an unnecessary change of surface foisted upon us by those who are making millions of dollars on these surfaces.

You hit the nail dead center on the head !!!! :jump:

This my friend says it all and should put this argument to rest, but it won't until racing is completely ruined by the graft and greed of the snake oil salesmen that pushed these garbage surfaces upon this once great sport.

________
David-LV

[Tom]

And while I care a whole lot less about the DWC than I do the BC, I have every right to be irritated at the people who foisted this crap on us, and to be irritated at people like you who preach to us that we should get over our dirt racing and biggest stars being removed from the biggest days in the sport.

Well of course you an wine about it. 12 posts and that is all you done so far. Maybe before your next 12 you will learn how to read. I never said what you are trying to convince yourself I said. But feel free to imagine anything you want. That is always easier that addressing facts.

[WinterTriangle]

The Sheikh misjudged the direction of American racing, and installed it at his new track.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when talking about international racing, I believe there's a rather large number of other nations involved besides the US. ;)

I'm not one to say that the Sheikh and the rest of the world should design their tracks only around American racing.

[Grits]

Those who have been so offended by Crist may want to keep in mind, this is HIS BLOG, his entry, written as he experienced it yesterday. His opinion is his own and he is as entitled to it as much as we are entitled to our own.

It is something one gets the feeling many are forgetting. Or dismissing altogether. This isn't the lead story on the front page of the DRF.

There are those that are traditionalists, and Crist is, indeed, a traditionalist, having been at this game for decades. And, in his defense, he's done far more for it than he's ever, ever dreamed of doing against it. He hasn't liked synthetics from day one. Its his right to state such, and to maintain it.

He discussed the racing and then commented that he felt the new facility gaudy, though, the comment wasn't paramount in his writing, he may have tempered it a bit by choosing to term it, excessive--which may have read a bit better. Still, this was his opinion. So, gaudy it was.

Gaudy doesn't bother me. I kinda liked the light show--all the fireworks and such. It was exciting, beautiful. Its a fact it beat the hell outta The Who at this year's Superbowl.

While I digress now--like Crist, this is my opinion since its my post. What bothers me more are the reports of the number of WallSteet bankers that bought up the properties on Dubai fueling their recent building boom. Properties that were bought based on the lie of worthless assets, and grossly inflated salaries. All of which us taxpayers have now shored up good fashioned.

So, with all considered--the big show, the high dollar real estate deals, the man-made beaches and the well documented problem of raw sewage pouring into the Persian Gulf, it all kinda turns me off.

Sheik Mo can keep his new track. I'll take ours any day, including AQUEDUCT. I'll take good old dirt too.

[Tom]

Good for Steve!
I mean that.
Of course he is entitle to his opinion.
And so is everyone else.
Count me out of this thread - too many groupies in here for my taste.

[Ian Meyers]

A respected blogger destroys Crist and his numerous inaccurate facts and statements

http://thedresdenfile.blogspot.com/2010/03/passion-of-steven.html

I love this the most...especially the part in bold.....

Again, 7 of the contenders had roughly the same poly/tapeta top going into the race, and of the 4 locally based they ran 1-2-3. The winner ran a good 2nd in this race last year, (yeah I know he was beaten off) behind a wire-to-wire winner on a night when everything won on the front end. If we're arguing that those poly/tapeta horses don't class up to our best on dirt I agree 100%. If we're arguing that the poly/artificial races in Europe and Dubai aren't as good as our best poly/artificial performances, and that the results were completely incomprehensible, that's dead wrong and I've got years worth of international class pars to prove it. Dubai Group 2's on either dirt or poly typically go in the 106 Beyer range, about 2-3 pts less than our DIRT GR-2's but about the same as our GR1 or GR2 races on poly. Allybar was beaten a length last time by a filly running about 106-108 running against older males in Japan. Why is it inconceivable that he can't compete against a Gitano Hernando and his 106 Goodwood or even Gio Ponti's 110 BC given his home court advantage?

[Stillriledup]

[B]


I wonder what the penalty is over there if you say you don't like it. :)

Trainers always tell the truth, so, i believe what they say.

;)

[Relwob Owner]

As an adjective, in the English language, it is not complimentary at all.

From 4 different dictionaries:
Tastelessly showy
Showy in a tasteless or vulgar way
Ostentatiously or tastelessly ornamented
Gay, bright, or colourful in a crude or vulgar manner
Bright and showy, but lacking in good taste
Cheaply brilliant and ornate

It was unnecessary for Crist to include the adjective in his article, and I still fail to see what purpose it served.



(Unless you're writing for the interior designing set in a fashion magazine. That's where talk about gaudy horribly overpriced stuff is appropriate, like the white house china that jackie, nancy and laura bought. :lol: )




I didnt count the words but I would say it is something in the 1500 range.....you seem to be unbelievably concerned about ONE word.....read the rest of the words in the article and it is clear that it is about synthetics, not about the track or the show that was put on....

Also, what are the sources you used for "gaudy"? I would never correlate "gaudy" with something that is vulgar......also, ask 100 people about the DWC and what they do and I think "gaudy" would come up a lot.

If you disagree with the article about synthetics, then fine. However, you are basing your response to it on one single word and totally missing the point of the article.

[castaway01]

As an adjective, in the English language, it is not complimentary at all.

From 4 different dictionaries:
Tastelessly showy
Showy in a tasteless or vulgar way
Ostentatiously or tastelessly ornamented
Gay, bright, or colourful in a crude or vulgar manner
Bright and showy, but lacking in good taste
Cheaply brilliant and ornate

It was unnecessary for Crist to include the adjective in his article, and I still fail to see what purpose it served.



(Unless you're writing for the interior designing set in a fashion magazine. That's where talk about gaudy horribly overpriced stuff is appropriate, like the white house china that jackie, nancy and laura bought. :lol: )

One thing you seem confused about---this wasn't some "feature article". It was an entry in Crist's DRF blog, making it by definition an opinion piece. How was he supposed to write an opinion piece without including his actual opinion?

Also, having watched some of the prerace festivities from Dubai, which made the Olympic opening ceremonies seem subdued, "gaudy" was an understatement. Gaudy and no doubt horribly overpriced as well.

[Spalding No!]

Tom, I'll come to your defense here. It absolutely was a sour grapes article written by someone who hates synthetics and can't handle the fact that there are no super-horses on the surface and in fact are numerous evenly matched horses.

Isn't this in some ways the very definition of a "crapshoot"?

Christ's arguments on Gloria de Campo are illogical. He argues that because GdC lost ON DIRT in some grade 1s by open lengths that he should have lost by open lengths on a sythetic as well. As though the 2 surfaces are the exact same thing, which they are not anywhere near.

Not sure if you read the enitre article. Crist stated:

but no one can really explain why anyone needs a third type of horse racing to go along with the dirt and turf racing that has defined the sport and its great horses for centuries.

GdC had a thorograph figure that put him right there with the rest of the field over synthetic surfaces, although I readily admit not using him simply because there were so many horses with similar figures I had to make a cut somewhere and for whatever reason did not choose him.

Another example of a crapshoot.

This is a common problem in handicapping these races on synthetics. There are so many horses capable of winning the race, it comes down to trip, luck and other intangibles like that. The lazy would rather openly complain that the surface sucks rather than embrace the challenge and the higher prices/rewards that come with it.

So you would rather have horse racing devolve into a game of pure uncertainty? Isn't part of the attraction the mythologized quest of "figuring the game out"?

I'm not sure why someone would be lazy for not "embracing the challenge" of trying to figure out which horse is going to be luckiest...

[TommyCh]

bobphilo (member.php?u=2375) makes an excellent point about the traffic in the full fields at Dubai Saturday. Remind you of something? How about the Kentucky Derby? That had a big effect on the races Saturday. I had my best day ever Saturday. My biggest angle was probably experience over the course, paired with some closing ability. I even liked Al Shemali, but shied away after "paying attention to the toteboard." The American contingent didn't look particularly impressive as I was handicapping. But the American pools kept them as underlays. Is not Richard's Kid one of the most overrated horses around? I don't like the synthetic surfaces either, especially in the U.S. where it is a needless complication to the other two surfaces. But Meydan's Tapeta seemed fair to me, and it didn't have that hideous kickback of Turfway. A big question is why did they install Tapeta at Meydan? I have to think it was more than just to tick off American "purists." As we get closer to the Derby, I always get a chuckle at how the racing punditry all tends to come down on the same four to six horses. I get mad when I lose too. But it was clear Saturday that things were kind of up for grabs. You just have to deal with it.

[Cadillakin]

We will never know how many potential starts never were able to show their stuff because they hated Pro Ride. I Want Revenge would be the best example of hating Pro Ride and loving dirt.
I Want Revenge ran twice on Pro-Ride. The first time when he was a maiden. Running eighth in the early going, in an extremely fast-run race..he finished well for 3rd... beaten two lengths.. They ran 6 furlongs in 1:08 flat! He ran 6 furlongs in 1:08.2 in the fastest maiden race of the meet! Is that an effort by a horse hating the surface while competing at a distance that was much too short for him?

His next effort over the Pro Ride was a good third to Pioneer of the Nile and Papa Clem in the 200k Robert K Lewis Stakes.. The distance was more suitable but the competition was much tougher.. He had the lead at the eighth pole after forcing the pace, then tired to third..The horses who bested him were both credentialed runners. In other words, they had a right to beat him on any surface.. Papa Clem was a Grade II Winner on both coasts, on dirt and synthetic, while Pioneer of the Nile was 4 time stakes winner and a Grade 1 winner. Both of those runners were on the board in the Kentucky Derby.. (2nd and 4th)

The horses I Want Revenge beat in the Gotham and Wood were considerably less credentialed. Imperial Council, West Side Bernie, Just A Coincidence and Mr Fantasy (the 2nd and 3rd horses in both races ) have just one Grade 3 win amongst them.. West Side Bernie (the horse with the Grade 3 win) did compete in the Kentucky Derby, finishing 9 lengths behind both Papa Clem and Pioneer of the Nile. As horses go.. he's an ordinary plodder..

Good horses normally look great beating up on lesser... which is what he I Want Revenge faced in the Gotham and Wood. As to whether he would have beaten Papa Clem and Pioneer of the Nile in the Kentucky Derby, or on dirt, it's unknown..

To sum up, if I Want Revenge had lost to horses like West Side Bernie and Imperial Council on the ProRide, you might have a valid point. But you don't.

So, as far as I'm concerned, your assertion that he hated the Pro Ride is without merit.

[andymays]

I Want Revenge ran twice on Pro-Ride. The first time when he was a maiden. Running eighth in the early going, in an extremely fast-run race..he finished well for 3rd... beaten two lengths.. They ran 6 furlongs in 1:08 flat! He ran 6 furlongs in 1:08.2 in the fastest maiden race of the meet! Is that an effort by a horse hating the surface while competing at a distance that was much too short for him?

His next effort over the Pro Ride was a good third to Pioneer of the Nile and Papa Clem in the 200k Robert K Lewis Stakes.. The distance was more suitable but the competition was much tougher.. He had the lead at the eighth pole after forcing the pace, then tired to third..The horses who bested him were both credentialed runners. In other words, they had a right to beat him on any surface.. Papa Clem was a Grade II Winner on both coasts, on dirt and synthetic, while Pioneer of the Nile was 4 time stakes winner and a Grade 1 winner. Both of those runners were on the board in the Kentucky Derby.. (2nd and 4th)

The horses I Want Revenge beat in the Gotham and Wood were considerably less credentialed. Imperial Council, West Side Bernie, Just A Coincidence and Mr Fantasy (the 2nd and 3rd horses in both races ) have just one Grade 3 win amongst them.. West Side Bernie (the horse with the Grade 3 win) did compete in the Kentucky Derby, finishing 9 lengths behind both Papa Clem and Pioneer of the Nile. As horses go.. he's an ordinary plodder..

Good horses normally look great beating up on lesser... which is what he I Want Revenge faced in the Gotham and Wood. As to whether he would have beaten Papa Clem and Pioneer of the Nile in the Kentucky Derby, or on dirt, it's unknown..

To sum up, if I Want Revenge had lost to horses like West Side Bernie and Imperial Council on the ProRide, you might have a valid point. But you don't.

So, as far as I'm concerned, your assertion that he hated the Pro Ride is without merit.

Another person wanting to rewrite history. What's up with you guys? I followed this horse as closely as anyone because I had a future book bet on him. Do me a favor and go back and read all the quotes from the connections and then come back and tell me they are without merit.

Are there horses that go from Pro Ride to dirt and do well? Absolutely. We see it all the time.

If you're gonna have an opinion that's fine but don't rewrite history.

[andymays]

So, as far as I'm concerned, your assertion that he hated the Pro Ride is without merit.


http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=14319

Excerpt:

One of the questions this year surrounding West Coast horses' ability to handle dirt was answered emphatically last weekend by I Want Revenge (Stephen Got Even), who blitzed his opposition in the Gotham S. (G3) at Aqueduct and backed up the confidence of trainer Jeff Mullins, who said before the race that his charge was better on dirt than synthetics.


http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=14276

Excerpt:

What a dirt horse! I WANT REVENGE (Stephen Got Even) improved dramatically when moving from synthetic to dirt in Saturday's Gotham S. (G3), garnering his first stakes victory with an 8 1/2-length trouncing. His BRIS Speed ratings tell the story.

In his final two juvenile starts, I Want Revenge earned Speed figures of 86 (maiden special weight win in late October) and 91 (runner-up finish in the CashCall Futurity [G1]) on the Cushion Track at Hollywood Park. In his three-year-old bow, a third-place effort over Pro-Ride in the Robert B. Lewis S. (G2), he received a 95 after proving no match for Pioneerof the Nile (Empire Maker) and Papa Clem (Distorted Humor) in deep stretch. Those numbers were irrelevant on Saturday as I Want Revenge posted a 113 BRIS Speed rating.


He's about 10 lengths better on dirt, and it should come as no surprise to Thoroughbred racing fans in America. It's a common theme, whether we're dealing with dirt/turf or dirt/synthetic. Some horses are versatile enough to excel on multiple surfaces (Barbaro immediately comes to mind), but most favor one over the other. Last year, Monba (Maria's Mon) and Adriano (A.P. Indy) displayed their prowess on synthetic tracks when capturing the Blue Grass S. (G1) and Lane's End S. (G2), respectively, but they weren't anywhere near that form on dirt, finishing last and next-to-last in the Kentucky Derby (G1). Put I Want Revenge in the dirt category.

[Charlie D]

It's a common theme, whether we're dealing with dirt/turf or dirt/synthetic. Some horses are versatile enough to excel on multiple surfaces (Barbaro immediately comes to mind), but most favor one over the other.




Mineshaft was mediocre on turf in Europe, but shipped Stateside onto Dirt a different beast altogether.


Slower surfaces and paceless races hindered his ability???

[Tom]

I do not see the word hate in there.
Maybe you forgot to paste that sentence.
Rewrite history? Please, point out EXACTLY what facts he rewrote in his post. Right after you paste the part about hating poly.

[andymays]

I do not see the word hate in there.
Maybe you forgot to paste that sentence.
Rewrite history? Please, point out EXACTLY what facts he rewrote in his post. Right after you paste the part about hating poly.


You both made comments about I Want Revenge that were completely false. :eek:


What else is there? :rolleyes:

[gm10]

I Want Revenge ran twice on Pro-Ride. The first time when he was a maiden. Running eighth in the early going, in an extremely fast-run race..he finished well for 3rd... beaten two lengths.. They ran 6 furlongs in 1:08 flat! He ran 6 furlongs in 1:08.2 in the fastest maiden race of the meet! Is that an effort by a horse hating the surface while competing at a distance that was much too short for him?

His next effort over the Pro Ride was a good third to Pioneer of the Nile and Papa Clem in the 200k Robert K Lewis Stakes.. The distance was more suitable but the competition was much tougher.. He had the lead at the eighth pole after forcing the pace, then tired to third..The horses who bested him were both credentialed runners. In other words, they had a right to beat him on any surface.. Papa Clem was a Grade II Winner on both coasts, on dirt and synthetic, while Pioneer of the Nile was 4 time stakes winner and a Grade 1 winner. Both of those runners were on the board in the Kentucky Derby.. (2nd and 4th)

The horses I Want Revenge beat in the Gotham and Wood were considerably less credentialed. Imperial Council, West Side Bernie, Just A Coincidence and Mr Fantasy (the 2nd and 3rd horses in both races ) have just one Grade 3 win amongst them.. West Side Bernie (the horse with the Grade 3 win) did compete in the Kentucky Derby, finishing 9 lengths behind both Papa Clem and Pioneer of the Nile. As horses go.. he's an ordinary plodder..

Good horses normally look great beating up on lesser... which is what he I Want Revenge faced in the Gotham and Wood. As to whether he would have beaten Papa Clem and Pioneer of the Nile in the Kentucky Derby, or on dirt, it's unknown..

To sum up, if I Want Revenge had lost to horses like West Side Bernie and Imperial Council on the ProRide, you might have a valid point. But you don't.

So, as far as I'm concerned, your assertion that he hated the Pro Ride is without merit.

This is one of the best posts I've ever read on here. Excellent insights.

(As an addition: I Want Revenge beat the grade 3 winner The Pamplemousse in the maiden that you mention.)

[andymays]

This is one of the best posts I've ever read on here. Excellent insights.


Did you read post 145?


It refutes just about everything he said and his main assertion about I Want Revenge.

I guess that makes it excellent. :rolleyes:

[gm10]

Did you read post 145?


It refutes just about everything he said and his main assertion about I Want Revenge.

I guess that makes it excellent. :rolleyes:

I Want Revenge improved more in his last Santa Anita race (from a previous synthetic race), than he did in his AQU debut (based on age-adjusted figs). Why?

I also have his Santa Anita debut at less than 1 length slower than his AQU races. Why call him a dirt specialist then?

Class and collateral handicapping is the way to go here, and the poster had it spot on.

[WinterTriangle]

Uh, andy. Cadillakin gave a cogent analysis of the races IWR ran, and how he ran them, and against whom. All that is in the actual charts. I agree with gm10, it was insightful.

You countered with some quotes from journalist/pundits in the racing press. :D Opinions about a horse don't equal facts.


I am also interested to know exactly what facts Cad "rewrote" in his post about IWR? Take each of his paragraphs, and counter.

[andymays]

I Want Revenge improved more in his last Santa Anita race (from a previous synthetic race), than he did in his AQU debut (based on age-adjusted figs). Why?

I also have his Santa Anita debut at less than 1 length slower than his AQU races. Why call him a dirt specialist then?

Class and collateral handicapping is the way to go here, and the poster had it spot on.


The poster knows a lot about Horse Racing and writes about it as well as anyone I've ever seen. I enjoy reading most of his posts. When it comes to I Want Revenge he is wrong and so is everyone else that wants to rewrite history. It's that simple.

[andymays]

Uh, andy. Cadillakin gave a cogent analysis of the races IWR ran, and how he ran them, and against whom. All that is in the actual charts. I agree with gm10, it was insightful.

You countered with some quotes from journalist/pundits in the racing press. :D Opinions about a horse don't equal facts.


I am also interested to know exactly what facts Cad "rewrote" in his post about IWR? Take each of his paragraphs, and counter.

I think I countered with a quote from the Horses Trainer. I guess that's not good enough. :)

[gm10]

The poster knows a lot about Horse Racing and writes about it as well as anyone I've ever seen. I enjoy reading most of his posts. When it comes to I Want Revenge he is wrong and so is everyone else that wants to rewrite history. It's that simple.

You're not arguing your case very well. The horses he beat at AQU have 3 grade 3 wins between them. And it's not like they haven't tried, they just haven't been able to win anything better.

I even count more grade 3 wins among the horses he beat during his synthetic spell (The Pamplemousse, Cholocate Candy, Azul Leon, Bittel Road).

[andymays]

You're not arguing your case very well. The horses he beat at AQU have 3 grade 3 wins between them. And it's not like they haven't tried, they just haven't been able to win anything better.

I even count more grade 3 wins among the horses he beat during his synthetic spell (The Pamplemousse, Cholocate Candy, Azul Leon, Bittel Road).


And the trip he got????????? Did you take that into account? Or doesn't that matter? How much the best was he?

The Trainer and the connections were lying to the public as well I guess. :rolleyes:

[gm10]

I think I countered with a quote from the Horses Trainer. I guess that's not good enough. :)

I always wonder how trainers decide that their horse is better on the dirt than the synthetic. How do they know? Do they have secret workouts on hidden dirt tracks?

[andymays]

I always wonder how trainers decide that their horse is better on the dirt than the synthetic. How do they know? Do they have secret workouts on hidden dirt tracks?


Once again for the umpteenth time on this board.

Hollywood is more like dirt than any other synthetic surface. When I Want Revenge faced POTN at Hollywood it was debateable who was better when you took the trips into account. When they faced each other on Pro Ride I Want Revenge had nothing when he was asked to quicken with a perfect trip.

That's what happened and that's what the Trainer was basing his opinion on.

[gm10]

Once again for the umpteenth time on this board.

Hollywood is more like dirt than any other synthetic surface. When I Want Revenge faced POTN at Hollywood it was debateable who was better when you took the trips into account. When they faced each other on Pro Ride I Want Revenge had nothing when he was asked to quicken with a perfect trip.

That's what happened and that's what the Trainer was basing his opinion on.

Really? Is that what you are basing this on??? OK then, how about some arguments that back up your and Mullins' crucial assumption that HOL is 'more' like dirt. And how much more?

[andymays]

Really? Is that what you are basing this on??? OK then, how about some arguments that back up your and Mullins' crucial assumption that HOL is 'more' like dirt. And how much more?


If you aren't aware of that then it is truly a waste of time to have an exchange with you on this matter.

Good Luck.

[gm10]

And the trip he got????????? Did you take that into account? Or doesn't that matter? How much the best was he?

The Trainer and the connections were lying to the public as well I guess. :rolleyes:

It was a very nice effort, but I'm not sure the trip made a great difference to his speed figure to be honest. And the horses who finished 2/3/4 all 'co-bounced' in their next race - usually a sign that their previous rating is overinflated.

For me, he was a versatile horse who was capable of beating grade 3 horses on either surface while achieving similar ratings. Impossible to conclude anything more or less - just my opinion.

[gm10]

If you aren't aware of that then it is truly a waste of time to have an exchange with you on this matter.

Good Luck.

Just put up me with here, and try to reason your case.
How do you define a dirt track's characteristics and for which of those does HOL appear to be a dirt track?

[Robert Fischer]

trashy journalism. I guess it's good for racing because it gets interest.

Maybe the DRF should hire Andy Mays, if they are going to be happy to throw together a hodgepodge of fallacies and make a sht casserole


How about an article of Perieria's ride and whether he stole the race? or an a look into how the the top 3 finishers had jockeys who had been riding the surface for the preps, while shipping jockeys did worse than expected?

random "drawn from a hat" surface or simply "different" surface?

[andymays]

Just put up me with here, and try to reason your case.
How do you define a dirt track's characteristics and for which of those does HOL appear to be a dirt track?


Your sincerity has proven to be less than true on several occasions is the past so I'll pass.

Good Luck.

[Tom]

You both made comments about I Want Revenge that were completely false. :eek:


What else is there? :rolleyes:

I did not - what EXACTLY did I say that was false? Quote my post - show me the false statements.

[gm10]

Your sincerity has proven to be less than true on several occasions is the past so I'll pass.

Good Luck.

?? That's just poor!!

[Tom]

I think I countered with a quote from the Horses Trainer. I guess that's not good enough. :)

Still waiting for you to show the word hate in his comments.
Did you lie about that?

[Tom]

If you aren't aware of that then it is truly a waste of time to have an exchange with you on this matter.

Good Luck.

Is this your way of saying you cannot back your use of the word hate so you take your ball and go home? Is it a rubber ball? :D

[andymays]

Is this your way of saying you cannot back your use of the word hate so you take your ball and go home? Is it a rubber ball? :D


What exactly are you saying my friend? Explain.

[PaceAdvantage]

everyone take a deep breath...count to 10...then come back kinder and gentler...respect the opinion given, even if you don't agree.

[Tom]

8....9....10.

I respect the un-proven opinon that the word hate was in the trainer's comments.

Now, off to IGGY Central.

[classhandicapper]

I think racing on synthetic surfaces makes a lot more sense in Europe, Dubai and elsewhere in the world than it does in the U.S.

In a lot of the rest of the world, turf racing dominates. Turf racing tends to be limited because the courses get chewed up after awhile. Since some synthetics play more like turf courses, this gives those places a way to expand their racing and maintain the form of their horses.

In the US it's the other way around. We were looking for a substitute for dirt and didn't find it.

The long term problem for the US is that turf and perhaps even synthetic racing is likely to continue to grow overseas. That might marginalize dirt racing as the sport becomes more global. Dirt racing might turn into harness racing.

[Fager Fan]

I think racing on synthetic surfaces makes a lot more sense in Europe, Dubai and elsewhere in the world than it does in the U.S.

In a lot of the rest of the world, turf racing dominates. Turf racing tends to be limited because the courses get chewed up after awhile. Since some synthetics play more like turf courses, this gives those places a way to expand their racing and maintain the form of their horses.

In the US it's the other way around. We were looking for a substitute for dirt and didn't find it.

The long term problem for the US is that turf and perhaps even synthetic racing is likely to continue to grow overseas. That might marginalize dirt racing as the sport becomes more global. Dirt racing might turn into harness racing.

When horses are able to time travel is when there will be "global racing." Until then, horses may make a race or two in a far away land if the ramifications of the travel make it worth it.

Our races aren't dependent on a single thing that foreign-based horses do, just as their races aren't altered a bit by our racing over here.

[Tom]

What exactly are you saying my friend? Explain.

You call me stupid for into agree with your point of view, then you call me a liar for posting true things about IWR - and you do not have the integrity to say what you are calling a lie. You are completly unable to discuss anything with out flying off the handle and insulting people. Fact is, you are the one who lied about what the trainer said. So find antoher "freind" - I have no use for you.

[Saratoga_Mike]

A respected blogger destroys Crist and his numerous inaccurate facts and statements

http://thedresdenfile.blogspot.com/2010/03/passion-of-steven.html

I love this the most...especially the part in bold.....

"First: Yesterday evening, I left the following notice on Crist Blog:
"Allybar was 1-for-7 in graded stakes of any kind. He won the G3 Maktoum Challenge Rd2 over this course in February. He also finished on the board in 4 of his 5 French group starts on the turf and was beaten all of a length when fourth over this course and distance 3 weeks ago. Yeah, he really came out of nowhere."
It takes a special kind of dickishness to block this comment and not even correct a clear error of fact in the post. Of course, correcting this mistake would undermine Crist's argument, and given that Allybar also finished on the board in 5 of 7 group races, it never was much of an argument to begin with. It is common these days for so called "political commentators" to shamelessly contort reality into the shape that best fits their narrative, but for a racing essayist to slip into this kind of propagandistic rabble-rousing is more than a bit questionable."

A special kind of dickishness.......priceless!

There are currently 80 comments responding to Crist's Dubai blog entry, several of which take serious issue with his position. Perhaps this blogger disagreed in a less than professional manner. I've seen Crist post comments stating that he's clueless for betting $1,500 into a Pick Six and only collecting $2,000 (even though it's a really stupid comment), so I find it hard to believe he'd refuse to post this comment without good cause.

[andymays]

You call me stupid for into agree with your point of view, then you call me a liar for posting true things about IWR - and you do not have the integrity to say what you are calling a lie. You are completly unable to discuss anything with out flying off the handle and insulting people. Fact is, you are the one who lied about what the trainer said. So find antoher "freind" - I have no use for you.


Your position on I Want Revenge was so far from the truth it was rediculous and an attempt to rewrite history. I supported my assertions with a quote from Mullins and another article.

If you're not familiar with the situation then maybe you shouldn't comment on I Want Revenge and his connections.

As far as the insults go you are rewriting history again "friend". You used the word "hate" as if hating polytrack is on the same level as hating people. That is way out of line.

Kicking over the table when you've embarrassed yourself with comments befitting an amateur handicapper and then not backing off them when you are faced with the truth is what you're doing. Anyone who wants to see it can read the thread from the start.

[boogazie]

It is not an attempt to rewrite history, it's just very insightful information on I Want Revenge's campaign.

Even I have always thought (based on trainer comments and the press) that I Want Revenge improved because he was switched to dirt. Now, I am not so sure because that was a very good analysis regarding the class of the horses he ran against on dirt.

[Tom]

Your position on I Want Revenge was so far from the truth it was rediculous and an attempt to rewrite history. I supported my assertions with a quote from Mullins and another article.

If you're not familiar with the situation then maybe you shouldn't comment on I Want Revenge and his connections.

As far as the insults go you are rewriting history again "friend". You used the word "hate" as if hating polytrack is on the same level as hating people. That is way out of line.

Kicking over the table when you've embarrassed yourself with comments befitting an amateur handicapper and then not backing off them when you are faced with the truth is what you're doing. Anyone who wants to see it can read the thread from the start.

I posted only this....care to tell me wher Ire-wrote history? Or where I lied?

Originally Posted by Tom
I wrote this about IWR. YOU say I am re-writing history. Where did I lie? YOU called me a liar for posting this....what is not true here?


Quote:
He ran twice as SA, both times came in thirds, once in a G2 to POTN.
I guess in your book, Andy, that is hating the surface. :bang:

[andymays]

I posted only this....care to tell me wher Ire-wrote history? Or where I lied?

Originally Posted by Tom
I wrote this about IWR. YOU say I am re-writing history. Where did I lie? YOU called me a liar for posting this....what is not true here?


Quote:
He ran twice as SA, both times came in thirds, once in a G2 to POTN.
I guess in your book, Andy, that is hating the surface. :bang:




I Want Revenge didn't like Pro Ride. Some would say he hated it. That's why he went east.

Good night Tom. There's always tomorrow. ;)

[Tom]

Now it is some would say.
Before it was his trainer.
Still looking for my re-write. You just keep dodging facts.
What did I post that was so far fro the truth? What did I post that was not true? You called me liar - now you can't back it up with my exact post right in front of you.

[andymays]

Now it is some would say.
Before it was his trainer.
Still looking for my re-write. You just keep dodging facts.
What did I post that was so far fro the truth? What did I post that was not true? You called me liar - now you can't back it up with my exact post right in front of you.


Post #145 says it all. If you can't wrap your mind around that post then you never will admit you were wrong about I Want Revenge.

You throw plenty of roundhouses yourself Tom and you often connect. It seem you have a glass jaw when it happens the other way around.

[Tom]

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=14319

Excerpt:

One of the questions this year surrounding West Coast horses' ability to handle dirt was answered emphatically last weekend by I Want Revenge (Stephen Got Even), who blitzed his opposition in the Gotham S. (G3) at Aqueduct and backed up the confidence of trainer Jeff Mullins, who said before the race that his charge was better on dirt than synthetics.


http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=14276

Excerpt:

What a dirt horse! I WANT REVENGE (Stephen Got Even) improved dramatically when moving from synthetic to dirt in Saturday's Gotham S. (G3), garnering his first stakes victory with an 8 1/2-length trouncing. His BRIS Speed ratings tell the story.

In his final two juvenile starts, I Want Revenge earned Speed figures of 86 (maiden special weight win in late October) and 91 (runner-up finish in the CashCall Futurity [G1]) on the Cushion Track at Hollywood Park. In his three-year-old bow, a third-place effort over Pro-Ride in the Robert B. Lewis S. (G2), he received a 95 after proving no match for Pioneerof the Nile (Empire Maker) and Papa Clem (Distorted Humor) in deep stretch. Those numbers were irrelevant on Saturday as I Want Revenge posted a 113 BRIS Speed rating.


He's about 10 lengths better on dirt, and it should come as no surprise to Thoroughbred racing fans in America. It's a common theme, whether we're dealing with dirt/turf or dirt/synthetic. Some horses are versatile enough to excel on multiple surfaces (Barbaro immediately comes to mind), but most favor one over the other. Last year, Monba (Maria's Mon) and Adriano (A.P. Indy) displayed their prowess on synthetic tracks when capturing the Blue Grass S. (G1) and Lane's End S. (G2), respectively, but they weren't anywhere near that form on dirt, finishing last and next-to-last in the Kentucky Derby (G1). Put I Want Revenge in the dirt category.



Originally Posted by andymays
We will never know how many potential starts never were able to show their stuff because they hated Pro Ride. I Want Revenge would be the best example of hating Pro Ride and loving dirt.
[/QUOTE]


I do not see the word hate in there. Did I say he was not better on dirt? You said he hated it. I think YOU are re-writing history.

You both made comments about I Want Revenge that were completely false. images/UBGX/05.gif What comment? Still waiting.

[PaceAdvantage]

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=14319

Excerpt:

One of the questions this year surrounding West Coast horses' ability to handle dirt was answered emphatically last weekend by I Want Revenge (Stephen Got Even), who blitzed his opposition in the Gotham S. (G3) at Aqueduct and backed up the confidence of trainer Jeff Mullins, who said before the race that his charge was better on dirt than synthetics.


http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=14276

Excerpt:

What a dirt horse! I WANT REVENGE (Stephen Got Even) improved dramatically when moving from synthetic to dirt in Saturday's Gotham S. (G3), garnering his first stakes victory with an 8 1/2-length trouncing. His BRIS Speed ratings tell the story.

In his final two juvenile starts, I Want Revenge earned Speed figures of 86 (maiden special weight win in late October) and 91 (runner-up finish in the CashCall Futurity [G1]) on the Cushion Track at Hollywood Park. In his three-year-old bow, a third-place effort over Pro-Ride in the Robert B. Lewis S. (G2), he received a 95 after proving no match for Pioneerof the Nile (Empire Maker) and Papa Clem (Distorted Humor) in deep stretch. Those numbers were irrelevant on Saturday as I Want Revenge posted a 113 BRIS Speed rating.


He's about 10 lengths better on dirt, and it should come as no surprise to Thoroughbred racing fans in America. It's a common theme, whether we're dealing with dirt/turf or dirt/synthetic. Some horses are versatile enough to excel on multiple surfaces (Barbaro immediately comes to mind), but most favor one over the other. Last year, Monba (Maria's Mon) and Adriano (A.P. Indy) displayed their prowess on synthetic tracks when capturing the Blue Grass S. (G1) and Lane's End S. (G2), respectively, but they weren't anywhere near that form on dirt, finishing last and next-to-last in the Kentucky Derby (G1). Put I Want Revenge in the dirt category.James Scully and Jeff Mullins are now the final word on everything IWR? This is one guy's opinion + the trainer's opinion. We all know that trainers are not infallible with their opinion.

[WinterTriangle]

Three horses in the Dubai Cup had 2-3 prep races over the track. They ran 1-2-3 in the Cup.

The others didn't run prep races over the track.

How is that a completely random result? :confused:



Gloria De Campaeo winning was not an unforeseen result.

Gloria De Campaeo had 2 major prep races over the track in Jan and March, in which he ran 1st and 2nd.

ITM in 71% of his races, 38% win rate, and seems to flourish at Dubai.


completely unforseen. ;)

The other horse had 3 prep races over the track, Lizard's Desire, is ITM 76%, has the most successful trainer in Dubai International Racing Carnival history, and his top rider, Kevin Shea, was given a choice, and chose to ride Lizard's.


Maybe US handicappers were basing their picks on the Goodwood and the Arlington Million? :confused:

[Dahoss9698]

I'm not sure what's funnier in this thread. Crist getting vilified for using the word gaudy, or people questioning that IWR was better on dirt.

Either way it's been a real knee slapper.

[andymays]

I Want Revenge was the morning line favorite for the Kentucky Derby because he liked Pro Ride! :D

Just about everyone I know on the ground at the time, the connections and all the professionals who watch races for a living like the Clockers knew I Want Revenge didn't handle Pro Ride. There are numerous articles about it yet it seems to be a contentious issue. Who knows why. :confused:

Here's some more information about IWR and synthetic surfaces. Good Luck.



http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=14504

Excerpt:

A maiden winner at Hollywood Park in late October, I Want Revenge immediately jumped to stakes company and just missed with a sterling effort in the CashCall Futurity (G1), finishing second by a nose to Pioneerof the Nile (Empire Maker). The Kentucky-bred didn't make a smooth transition to the Pro-Ride at Santa Anita when making his three-year-old debut in the Robert B. Lewis S. (G2) on February 7, finishing a non-threatening third, so his connections decided to ship him out of Southern California in favor of a dirt start. I Want Revenge took to the dirt with a career-best, earning a whopping 113 BRIS Speed rating for his impressive victory on the front end.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2009/03/22/2009-03-22_the_day_at_the_races.html

Excerpt:

Mullins is based at Hollywood Park, which races over the Cushion Track.
"I thought our worries were over when we first got that track," he said. "But then it just kind of broke down and they've done their best to keep it together. If they replaced the dirt track every three of four years with the best stuff available we wouldn't be in the boat we're in."
Besides the Cushion Track, I Want Revenge has raced over the synthetic Polytrack at Del Mar and the Pro-Ride surface at Santa Anita.

"The biggest issue with synthetics is that they can't take all the training and racing we give them and still do what they're supposed to do," Mullins said. "The wear and tear breaks them down."


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2009/03/22/2009-03-22_the_day_at_the_races.html#ixzz0jeHGzMFE


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/2009-04-23-kentucky-derby-favorites_N.htm

Excerpt:


I Want Revenge could emerge as the favorite because of the way he responded when he made the transition from Santa Anita's Pro-Ride to dirt. He demolished the Gotham field by 8 1/2 lengths at Aqueduct in New York on March 7, then reared at the start but fought back to take the Wood Memorial by 1 1/2 lengths in early April at nearby Belmont Park.

[WinterTriangle]

Crist getting vilified for using the word gaudy.


.....and calling the race a crapshoot, which it wasn't, as I just explained above.

Thank goodness, there were a number of sharp 'cappers in his blog who explained to him how to handicap it.

(You know, the guys who actually had the winning horse(s) running 1-2-3, and then afterwards were told by sore losers that it was a crapshoot.:D )

[Charlie D]

Dubai World Cup converted to "Dubai World Crapshoot"


Made me chuckle

[Dahoss9698]

.....and calling the race a crapshoot, which it wasn't, as I just explained above.

Thank goodness, there were a number of sharp 'cappers in his blog who explained to him how to handicap it.

(You know, the guys who actually had the winning horse(s) running 1-2-3, and then afterwards were told by sore losers that it was a crapshoot.:D )

You must have made a killing on the race since it was so easy. And by killing I don't mean putting up 4 or 5 horses on a message board. I mean actually betting the race with real money.

I doubt it.

[Tom]

What is really funny in this thread the total lack of comprehension some posters display. They cannot see past their own preconceived notions long to actually read what others are saying. Sad.
I guess based on this thread, and knowing how Cigar took to the dirt, we should be pulling up grass courses by the roots everywhere.
I personally would love to see dirt come back, but it ain't gonna happen
anytime soon. Woodbine is not only doing well with it, it is one of the best tracks to play for a lot of us. I know I am using it as my A track this year.

But, after all this, I am writing to Santa Anita and Del Mar and praising their tracks to high heaven, just to help make sure they never change! :lol:

[pandy]

It you have full fields and good racing they will come, dirt or poly. But it helps if the surface is consistent. Hollywood's Cushion Track seems like the most consistent surface to me and it plays more like dirt than most of the synthetic tracks.

[Dahoss9698]

What is really funny in this thread the total lack of comprehension some posters display. They cannot see past their own preconceived notions long to actually read what others are saying. Sad.
I guess based on this thread, and knowing how Cigar took to the dirt, we should be pulling up grass courses by the roots everywhere.
I personally would love to see dirt come back, but it ain't gonna happen
anytime soon. Woodbine is not only doing well with it, it is one of the best tracks to play for a lot of us. I know I am using it as my A track this year.

But, after all this, I am writing to Santa Anita and Del Mar and praising their tracks to high heaven, just to help make sure they never change! :lol:

Cigar won on the dirt before he even stepped foot on grass, so what exactly is your point in regards to him?

[Tom]

IWR won on poly and showed in a graded stakes before exploding on dirt, but to Andy, that is hating the surface. I was just using his line of thinking and applying it to a very similar situation. Obviously, since Cigar ran better on dirt, he hated turf. And therefore, turf nearly robbed us of seeing how great a hrose he was. These are Andy's arguments, not mine, I'm just seeing how well they translate to real life events that do not involve poly tracks.

[the little guy]

Obviously I Want Revenge didn't " hate " synth. But, just as obviously, he was a better dirt horse.

Once again, synth makes mediocre horses look good and good horses look mediocre.

[Tom]

Exactly.
Or, conversely, does dirt with its early bias make mediocre horses look great? ;)

[the little guy]

Exactly.
Or, conversely, does dirt with its early bias make mediocre horses look great? ;)


Only if there is a bias AND people don't know how to properly judge talent.

[broadreach]

Woodbine is not only doing well with it, it is one of the best tracks to play for a lot of us. I know I am using it as my A track this year.
Is that a joke? I find the track confusing, but good luck if you were serious.

[46zilzal]

It you have full fields and good racing they will come, dirt or poly. But it helps if the surface is consistent. Hollywood's Cushion Track seems like the most consistent surface to me and it plays more like dirt than most of the synthetic tracks.
I play Woodbine everyday now for the last 18 years, and it is as consistent as they come with rare exception, but then if you visit their website they tell you when they are deeply harrowing the surface

[Cadillakin]

Obviously I Want Revenge didn't " hate " synth. But, just as obviously, he was a better dirt horse.
And just as obviously, I Want Revenge enjoyed the class drop when he faced the classic pretenders in the Gotham and the Wood - on dirt.

Granted, Papa Clem and Pioneer of the Nile are no great shakes as race horses. Nobody is going to put them down in their 100 best of all time, but comparatively, they tower over those horses IWR faced in New York.

I'm sure you remember that Papa Clem outgamed the top-notcher, Old Fashioned, (who cake-walked in the Grade II Remson in New York) and also held champion 3 year old champion Summer Bird at bay in the Grade II, Arksansas Derby, on dirt. So, his credentials were legitimate to beat I Want Revenge. In fact, he may have been the better horse on both surfaces. I Want Revenge never beat horses as good as Old Fashioned and Summer Bird.. I don't think any player can argue that... even the partisan, Andymays.

Unfortunately for Papa Clem, he had a trainer that has no clue when to rest... or he might have accomplished more..

And finally, a question; Was there a good credentialed horse in the Wood or Gotham? Or is it the case that IWR steamrolled a bunch of pansies?

[Tom]

Granted, Papa Clem and Pioneer of the Nile are no great shakes as race horses.

One of them finished second in the Derby, and it wasn't Pappa Clem.
Also, with IWR, had Beyer revised his poly numbers at that time? I know using CJ conversions, POTN was a legit contender, as was IWR, but I had already decided agaisnt IWR because of low odds and I just thoug POTN was the better horse. I had no hesitation he would do well on dirt.


Woodbine - yes, it can be a gold mine. I think CJ's Dad does well there, too.
Of coure, when you're using CJ's, good things happen. ;)

[Charlie D]

FWIW, my numbers told me, I want Revenge Pro- Ride horse and I want Revenge Dirt horse, were two different animals.


BTW, Rachel steam rolled a bunch of pansies before Preakness too.

[Tom]

Like Quality Road GP is a different horse than QR anywhere else?

[Charlie D]

We'll have to wait and see Tom won't we :)

[gm10]

Is that a joke? I find the track confusing, but good luck if you were serious.

Woodbine is a great betting track imo. The large the fields, the better the betting. And it's not like the Woodbine surface isn't consistent.

[the little guy]

Praising Pioneer of the Nile simply because he finished second in the KY Derby is like praising Twice a Prince for running an outstanding race in the Belmont simply because he, too, was second.

[Dahoss9698]

And just as obviously, I Want Revenge enjoyed the class drop when he faced the classic pretenders in the Gotham and the Wood - on dirt.

Granted, Papa Clem and Pioneer of the Nile are no great shakes as race horses. Nobody is going to put them down in their 100 best of all time, but comparatively, they tower over those horses IWR faced in New York.

I'm sure you remember that Papa Clem outgamed the top-notcher, Old Fashioned, (who cake-walked in the Grade II Remson in New York) and also held champion 3 year old champion Summer Bird at bay in the Grade II, Arksansas Derby, on dirt. So, his credentials were legitimate to beat I Want Revenge. In fact, he may have been the better horse on both surfaces. I Want Revenge never beat horses as good as Old Fashioned and Summer Bird.. I don't think any player can argue that... even the partisan, Andymays.

Unfortunately for Papa Clem, he had a trainer that has no clue when to rest... or he might have accomplished more..

And finally, a question; Was there a good credentialed horse in the Wood or Gotham? Or is it the case that IWR steamrolled a bunch of pansies?

Old Fashioned was a top-notcher? Because he beat no one in the Remsen and then held off a Summer Bird making his 3rd lifetime start?

Try again.

[Tom]

Praising Pioneer of the Nile simply because he finished second in the KY Derby is like praising Twice a Prince for running an outstanding race in the Belmont simply because he, too, was second.

Well, he won a few other stakes as well. Point was, run of the mill was not an accurate descriptions of him. And he beat IWR rather handily.

[ghostyapper]

Old Fashioned was a top-notcher? Because he beat no one in the Remsen and then held off a Summer Bird making his 3rd lifetime start?

Try again.

If you can't see that Old Fashioned was better than anything IWR faced in NY then I pity you.

[Dahoss9698]

If you can't see that Old Fashioned was better than anything IWR faced in NY then I pity you.

Putting words in my mouth huh? I disagree that Old Fashioned was a top notch horse. I made no comment about any horses IWR faced in NY. I thought I made that pretty clear.

But, to be perfectly honest I'm not certain Old Fashioned was any better than Mr Fantasy. And, Atomic Rain, who was defeated by IWR in the Wood came back to soundly defeat Papa Clem in New Jersey.

Weird that Cadillakin left that part out in his praising of Papa Clem. Wonder why.

[the little guy]

Well, he won a few other stakes as well. Point was, run of the mill was not an accurate descriptions of him. And he beat IWR rather handily.


You're right, run of the mill is an overaggeration, but he was extremely mediocre on dirt. Not that great on other surfaces...but better.

[Tom]

He showed up on Derby day and got second.
Where were all those NYRA stars? I must have missed them.

[the little guy]

He showed up on Derby day and got second.
Where were all those NYRA stars? I must have missed them.


Most horses that lose by as much as he did finish 8th.

Pioneer of the Nile was a NYRA horse. He left because he found the competition too tough.

[Tom]

Too tough? :lol:


Let’s look at NYRA’s big three year old races – Wood, Belmont, Travers.

The Wood winner, IWR was beaten by an extremely mediocre horse, POTN.

The Travers and Belmont winner, Summer Bird was beaten by the same extremely mediocre horse, POTN, on dirt, as was Musket Man. Summer Bird wins the Belmont, but POTN was not in it. Dunkirk also vastly improves san POTN.




I guess the NYRA three old races need to improve to be called extremely mediocre.

[Dahoss9698]

Wow....that is some confused thinking right there.

[the little guy]

Wow....that is some confused thinking right there.


Tom went to great lengths to try to redeem himself.

At least, however, I don't have to worry about him starting an " I'm Leaving " thread.

[46zilzal]

As much as I did not want to admit it over the years,, the EPICENTER of horse racing is in the East.

[ghostyapper]

Putting words in my mouth huh? I disagree that Old Fashioned was a top notch horse. I made no comment about any horses IWR faced in NY. I thought I made that pretty clear.

But, to be perfectly honest I'm not certain Old Fashioned was any better than Mr Fantasy. And, Atomic Rain, who was defeated by IWR in the Wood came back to soundly defeat Papa Clem in New Jersey.

Weird that Cadillakin left that part out in his praising of Papa Clem. Wonder why.

Talk about the post of all posts here. First you cry about someone putting words in your mouth right after you do this to cadillakin accusing him of calling old fashioned a top notch horse when he never did. Then you go on to admit that you don't think old fashioned was any better than mr fantasy disproving your first comment that I put words in your mouth.

Classic

[Dahoss9698]

Talk about the post of all posts here. First you cry about someone putting words in your mouth right after you do this to cadillakin accusing him of calling old fashioned a top notch horse when he never did. Then you go on to admit that you don't think old fashioned was any better than mr fantasy disproving your first comment that I put words in your mouth.

Classic

Cadillakin never called Old Fashioned top notch huh? Who posted this?



I'm sure you remember that Papa Clem outgamed the top-notcher, Old Fashioned, (who cake-walked in the Grade II Remson in New York) and also held champion 3 year old champion Summer Bird at bay in the Grade II, Arksansas Derby, on dirt. So, his credentials were legitimate to beat I Want Revenge. In fact, he may have been the better horse on both surfaces. I Want Revenge never beat horses as good as Old Fashioned and Summer Bird.. I don't think any player can argue that... even the partisan, Andymays.



You did put words into my mouth. The only thing I said to Cadillakin was that Old Fashioned wasn't top notch. Then, after you put words in my mouth I gave my opinion on who IWR faced in NY. I notice you avoided the fact that Atomic Rain beat Papa Clem in Jersey. How convenient.

This wasn't one of your better efforts.

[the little guy]

This wasn't one of your better efforts.




I'm going to have to disagree with this.

Consistancy is that poster's one strong suit.

[affirmedny]

Praising Pioneer of the Nile simply because he finished second in the KY Derby is like praising Twice a Prince for running an outstanding race in the Belmont simply because he, too, was second.

Not only that, wasn't the derby run in a sea of mud or did I imagine that? A horse running second on a sloppy track hardly proves he can "handle dirt" IMO. If Summer Bird didn't get a 7 wide trip nobody would even remember POTN.

[the little guy]

Not only that, wasn't the derby run in a sea of mud or did I imagine that? A horse running second on a sloppy track hardly proves he can "handle dirt" IMO. If Summer Bird didn't get a 7 wide trip nobody would even remember POTN.


Pioneer of the Nile got a chance to show what he was made of on dry dirt in the Preakness.

Anyone know if he has finished yet?

[46zilzal]

Pioneer of the Nile got a chance to show what he was made of on dry dirt in the Preakness.

Anyone know if he has finished yet?
what ever happened to that one?

[the little guy]

Retired before full exposure.

[johnhannibalsmith]

what ever happened to that one?

He's become a benchmark for futility or brilliance, depending upon the author.

[the little guy]

He's become a benchmark for futility or brilliance, depending upon the author.


That was good.

[Fager Fan]

Old Fashioned was a good horse. He lost that last race to Papa Clem by a half-length despite coming out of the race with a slab fracture. Given the nature of a slab fracture, it's safe to assume that it was likely affecting him in his race prior, where he also finished second.

I disagree with those who don't think IWR was a better horse on dirt, but agree that IWR was probably too hyped given the competition that he met in the two races in which he earned that reputation. His reputation remains intact to this day as one of the best of the crop and he really never got a chance to show if that reputation was correct. I'm surprised that he wasn't retired, as returning from a soft tissue injury as serious as it sounds his was isn't at all likely.

[WinterTriangle]

And by killing I don't mean putting up 4 or 5 horses on a message board.

Actually, it was a 4-horse box for the Dubai Cup, and a 3-horse box for the Sunland Derby.

You must have made a killing on the race since it was so easy.

I provided you the exactas in the Dubai Cup & Sunland Derby, and you demand a wagering report as well? :lol:

Let me be frank: I haven't the time or energy for high-maintenance types such as yourself. (and I'm grateful I'm not required to subsidize that kind of neediness in my personal life.)

Hopefully, you made the minimum investment of $36 to earn $1,126.40.

but......in your own words.....................I doubt it.

IMHO, you've attained ultimate bad sport and loser status on this board when you need to find something to criticize about someone else's success.

[Stillriledup]

Actually, it was a 4-horse box for the Dubai Cup, and a 3-horse box for the Sunland Derby.



I provided you the exactas in the Dubai Cup & Sunland Derby, and you demand a wagering report as well? :lol:

Let me be frank: I haven't the time or energy for high-maintenance types such as yourself. (and I'm grateful I'm not required to subsidize that kind of neediness in my personal life.)

Hopefully, you made the minimum investment of $36 to earn $1,126.40.

but......in your own words.....................I doubt it.

IMHO, you've attained ultimate bad sport and loser status on this board when you need to find something to criticize about someone else's success.


Dahoss doesn't bet, he just trolls around calling other people trolls and accusing THEM of not even betting.

He won't bet your picks because he's forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know.

Just ask him.

[Indulto]

http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2010/03/29/sports/horseracing/doc4bb178ca0c80b854309848.txt (http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2010/03/29/sports/horseracing/doc4bb178ca0c80b854309848.txt)
A closed mind
By Nick Kling March 29, 2010… I consider a March 27 blog entry titled "Dubai World Crapshoot" written by Daily Racing Form (DRF) Publisher and columnist Steven Crist to be needlessly intemperate. If legendary DRF executive columnist Joe Hirsch was still alive, he would be embarrassed someone from his beloved 'Turf Authority' had composed anything so obnoxious.

… Let's start with the "true showcase for champions." Crist conveniently neglected that World Cups staged on dirt were won by as many mediocre horses as the great ones he referenced. Do you remember Almutawakel, Captain Steve, Moon Ballad, Electrocutionist, and Well Armed? The last scored over a speed-biased track.

Why do we need a third surface? We have beer and whiskey, so why do we need wine? We had horses and mules. Why did we need cars? My in-laws already had two daughters. Why did they need a third?

Racing can use a third surface for at least two reasons -- variety and extreme weather conditions.

… Synthetic critics will object to the second reason -- extreme weather conditions -- citing the disastrous Cushion Track/Pro-Ride experiment at Santa Anita which has produced numerous cancellations over the last two years.

Sorry, but that argument is bogus.

Santa Anita's experience is apparently based on flawed installation of the surface, not its inherent properties. None of the other synthetic tracks installed in North America have had major problems because of weather.

… Crist's contention the World Cup outcome was a 'crapshoot' is ludicrous on its face. The top three finishers in the race had been separated by one and one-quarter lengths in the primary prep for the race, the March 4 Maktoum Challenge, over the same Meydan course at the same distance as the World Cup. Fourth-place finisher Gio Ponti was about one and one-quarter lengths behind the World Cup winner, a similar margin to his one length loss to Zenyatta in the Breeders' Cup Classic.

I was encouraged to see more than half of the initial 56 comments to Crist's blog, from those who expressed an opinion, disagreed with his inflammatory conclusion. It seems not all horseplayers are so virulently anti-synthetic they cannot keep an open mind.

Sadly, Crist's appears to be closed, a disappointing outcome from one of racing's most influential and articulate spokespersons.. …

[Show Me the Wire]

WinterTriangle:

Great call. I don't understand why or how anyone can disparage a 4 horse box and a 3 horse box in completive races?

You get the laurels, so sad some decide to take umbrage at your success.

[46zilzal]

Woodbine is a great example of a consistent artificial surface maintained like the manufacturer's designed it to be.

We have many shipper that go there and do well.

[Valuist]

http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2010/03/29/sports/horseracing/doc4bb178ca0c80b854309848.txt (http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2010/03/29/sports/horseracing/doc4bb178ca0c80b854309848.txt)
A closed mind
By Nick Kling March 29, 2010

Should also point out that the winner of the WC was a solid 9 lengths behind Gio Ponti when they raced at Arlington. Crist is spot on with his analysis.

One of the big problems I have with synthetic is the favorite/longshot syndrome; where winners are either under 8-5, or hard to use 20-1 shots. Doesn't seem to be good for the sweet spot of value, between 4-1 and 15-1.

[tribecaagent]

Dahoss doesn't bet, he just trolls around calling other people trolls and accusing THEM of not even betting.

He won't bet your picks because he's forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know.

Just ask him.

This is way off topic but your new avatar is way cool.

[Indulto]

Should also point out that the winner of the WC was a solid 9 lengths behind Gio Ponti when they raced at Arlington. Crist is spot on with his analysis.

One of the big problems I have with synthetic is the favorite/longshot syndrome; where winners are either under 8-5, or hard to use 20-1 shots. Doesn't seem to be good for the sweet spot of value, between 4-1 and 15-1.Interesting. I lost that "sweet spot" myself when the DRF started publishing Beyer Speed Figures.;)

Actually, my experience with synthetics mirrors your which is why I only play vertical exotics on them lately

[Relwob Owner]

Interesting. I lost that "sweet spot" myself when the DRF started publishing Beyer Speed Figures.;)

Actually, my experience with synthetics mirrors your which is why I only play vertical exotics on them lately


No kidding with the Beyer publishing thing....during the 80's Charlestown was a goldmine for anyone with those figs....

[Vinnie]

He's become a benchmark for futility or brilliance, depending upon the author.

Well stated. Given all that he accomplished leading up to the KY Derby last year, it was like he pretty much fell right off of the map following the Preakness. I had wondered what the heck was happening with this horse for some time now.

[Tom]

That was good.

Ok, I'm starting an I'm Staying thread now! :p

[PaceAdvantage]

Obviously I Want Revenge didn't " hate " synth. But, just as obviously, he was a better dirt horse.

Once again, synth makes mediocre horses look good and good horses look mediocre.True that.

Ooops...I see I'm way late to this party...

I love it when people start calling each other trolls... :lol:

[the little guy]

True that.

Ooops...I see I'm way late to this party...

I love it when people start calling each other trolls... :lol:


Rule of thumb, in those cases at least one of them is always a troll.

[Dahoss9698]

Actually, it was a 4-horse box for the Dubai Cup, and a 3-horse box for the Sunland Derby.



I provided you the exactas in the Dubai Cup & Sunland Derby, and you demand a wagering report as well? :lol:

Let me be frank: I haven't the time or energy for high-maintenance types such as yourself. (and I'm grateful I'm not required to subsidize that kind of neediness in my personal life.)

Hopefully, you made the minimum investment of $36 to earn $1,126.40.

but......in your own words.....................I doubt it.

IMHO, you've attained ultimate bad sport and loser status on this board when you need to find something to criticize about someone else's success.

I'm not demanding anything. I'm not looking for anything from you. You are the one that pm'd me remember? I guess you did have the time when you were doing that. Told me about how you rarely bet and just treat this as fun. Said you bet very little. We both know I'm not making that up.

It's one thing to post picks on the internet and a whole other thing to have the confidence in your opinion to wager your money on them. That's why I find your opinion of Crist so funny.

IMHO, you are a fraud. I just hope I can find the courage to get over your personal attack.

[Dahoss9698]

He won't bet your picks because he's forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know.



We finally agree.

[WinterTriangle]

Said you bet very little.

It's one thing to post picks on the internet and a whole other thing to have the confidence in your opinion to wager your money on them.

Correct. I am a recreational player.

Is that something I should be embarassed about? :D


As a recreational player, I stay within a budget. Can you explain why that would imply a lack of confidence in my own opinion?

If I made a small $10 wager on both exactas, I won $2,815.50. ($2635.50 ahead). I think that's called "making a profit".

Weekends, I wager 2-3 stakes races. Unless it's BC. I have excellent impulse control, which is why I'm not fat or broke. :lol:


And, by the way, Dahoss, please feel free to share any other PMs (private messages) we exchanged.

:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:


Dahoss doesn't bet, he just trolls around calling other people trolls and accusing THEM of not even betting.

He won't bet your picks because he's forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know.

Just ask him.

I didn't have to. He took it upon himself to tell me.

[Show Me the Wire]

I'm not demanding anything. I'm not looking for anything from you. You are the one that pm'd me remember? I guess you did have the time when you were doing that. Told me about how you rarely bet and just treat this as fun. Said you bet very little. We both know I'm not making that up.

It's one thing to post picks on the internet and a whole other thing to have the confidence in your opinion to wager your money on them. That's why I find your opinion of Crist so funny.

IMHO, you are a fraud. I just hope I can find the courage to get over your personal attack.


Making selections like she did allows her to bet very little for a large gain. Its the way the game should be played.

You keep on demonstrating your control issues with each and every post.

So now you are setting criteria to be legitimate poster and not a fraud. Give us all a break from your pomposity.

You really are detriment to this board and its purpose to foster discussion related to horse racing.

She picked them and posted them, which meant she wagered a lot more than money too. She wagered her credibility and skill and won

While, you lose any credibility and any respect for untrustworthy use of private pms to undermine another poster. Now everyone knows you cannot be trusted with any type of private communication, because you will wait for a future opportunity to use the information against the individual.

[Dahoss9698]

I guess I got told.

Internet credibility....serious, serious stuff.

[Show Me the Wire]

I guess I got told.

Internet credibility....serious, serious stuff.

The only thing a person really has is their reputation. Strange you tried to attack WinterTriangle by besmirching her credibility, so it must be important to you. Since you discovered the shit flew back into your face credibility is not an important issue on the internet. So what are we suppose to believe is credibility important or not?

This it is about your abuse of PA's hospitality on his discussion forum. A forum which you think you can disturb at your leisure, because it is on the internet and not face to face.

Your above-quote sums you up very accurately; you are not to be mistaken for someone interested in discussion, but as someone looking to amuse themselves on the internet at other people's expense and someone not worthy of trust.

[Dahoss9698]

The only thing a person really has is their reputation. Strange you tried to attack WinterTriangle by besmirching her credibility, so it must be important to you. Since you discovered the shit flew back into your face credibility is not an important issue on the internet. So what are we suppose to believe is credibility important or not?

This it is about your abuse of PA's hospitality on his discussion forum. A forum which you think you can disturb at your leisure, because it is on the internet and not face to face.

Your above-quote sums you up very accurately; you are not to be mistaken for someone interested in discussion, but as someone looking to amuse themselves on the internet at other people's expense and someone not worthy of trust.

More serious stuff. Someone I don't know doesn't think I am trustworthy...how will I ever function tomorrow?

[Market Mover]

Not a bad wager at all. I wish I had spent a little less. I was torn between Gloria and Allybar, and as I watched these two in the post parade, I could not separate them. So instead of the second-guessing that normally comes after these big races, I played both to win (some may hate that strategy, but I knew the American horses would be overplayed in American pools).

03/27/10 Dubai (UAE) 8 c $200.00 WIN 1,5 $400.00 $0.00 $5,240.00

Somebody please tell me I made the right move? I could have spent just about the same playing many combos with these two contenders, but I may not have thrown the runner up Lizard's Desire into the mix. Is it just me or did that trifecta come back VERY SHORT?

[Indulto]

Who let the dogs out? SMTW let the dogs out woof, woof. :lol: :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

This is way off topic but your new avatar is way cool.

Thanks. :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

The only thing a person really has is their reputation. Strange you tried to attack WinterTriangle by besmirching her credibility, so it must be important to you. Since you discovered the shit flew back into your face credibility is not an important issue on the internet. So what are we suppose to believe is credibility important or not?

This it is about your abuse of PA's hospitality on his discussion forum. A forum which you think you can disturb at your leisure, because it is on the internet and not face to face.

Your above-quote sums you up very accurately; you are not to be mistaken for someone interested in discussion, but as someone looking to amuse themselves on the internet at other people's expense and someone not
worthy of trust.


There are plenty of people on the internet at various message boards who find a way to single out a few posters and just attack everything they post relentlessly. I've seen situations on other message boards where a poster will never give you one speck of credit no matter how great your post happens to be. You could have the smartest posters on the board all agree in unison that you're opinion is wonderful and correct, but there will always be that one dissenter, one person who loves to rip you down on the one hand, but never give you credit on another.

Dahoss is such a poster.

I can't ever remember Dahoss responding to anything i've ever said with a 'good point riled' or, "i totally agree with you" Never once. Not ever. He's right there to jump on me and call me an idiot on almost every post i put up here but never gives me credit when he thinks im right.

I'm not suggesting that he agrees with everything i say, but i feel that if you're going to be harsh in your critique on posts you disagree with, you ought to give that love back when that person is right and say "good call, i agree" I don't know how many opinions i've had here that were 'wrong' but i know i'm not 0 for 1,000.

You totally hit the nail on the head about this poster. You discuss this stuff as a serious issue, and he just makes fun of it and acts like he can come here and do whatever he wants, say whatever he wants and when someone calls him out on it, he's going to just tell you to stop crying or put him on ignore.

You make a great point about the face to face stuff. Quality message boards like this one don't need hit and run type posters. I think that some people don't understand that even though this board is somewhat anonymous, people still have feelings and want to be part of a positive community and not have to worry that whenever you post something that Dahoss is going to come and attack you and call you a troll and idiot because he doesnt' agree. Actually, he seldom agrees, if you go back and review all Dahoss's posts, there will be very few that are positive or agreeing in nature...most of them are him telling someone they're wrong, or an idiot, or one of the worst trolls in the history of message boards.

Its actually funny in a way because a few weeks ago i swore off dahoss. I said to myself that i'm just not going to respond to this guy and what do i go do? I responded to a post and after i hit submit, i realized that it was a dahoss post and i was really mad at myself for responding because i knew it was just going to get me nowhere.

Silly me for thinking this was a smart poster who was here to actually debate the issues and have a little fun once in a while. Live and learn i guess.