Is pushing the all button a bad wager?

[only11]

Crist says this a lazy way of wagering...the last 2 months i have had tough beats in the last leg of a pick 3 and 4....
Is it a bad wager pushing the all button?
Any input will be appreciated?

[kitts]

I kniw a guy who is successful and he bets a trifecta or he passes the race. His trifecta bet is always Key-All-All; All/Key/All; All-All-Key which often ties up $200+ in $1 tris. Nor for me but he makes money.

[Fingal]

Depends on the type of race, is it formful older established horses or a field of confirmed losers that seem to take turns beating each other ?. On March 13th @ Santa Anita, the last race of the day was a 12,500 claimer won by a horse that paid over $ 75. Unless one was either a Victor Espinoza or Henry Moreno fan or had a thing for the # 12, there was virtually no logic to it's winning the final leg of whatever horizontal exotic bet this was the part of. Unless one did a massive spread or hit the all button, they would have missed it. There is a time for everything- saying that using the " All " is taking the easy way out is questionable. Blanket statements are dangerous.

[46zilzal]

Not at all I often do very well isolating a single maiden that WILL hit the board with a bunch of unknowns.

[Johnny V]

Crist says this a lazy way of wagering...the last 2 months i have had tough beats in the last leg of a pick 3 and 4....
Is it a bad wager pushing the all button?
Any input will be appreciated?
It can be a useful wager depending on the situation. I very seldom use the all button but I have hit a few very nice trifectas betting it as A/BC/ALL.

[TizTheOne]

Crist says this a lazy way of wagering...the last 2 months i have had tough beats in the last leg of a pick 3 and 4....
Is it a bad wager pushing the all button?
Any input will be appreciated?

If Crist said this he is simply wrong. There are clearly races where the outcome is essentially up for grabs, often in larger fields which can make the ALL button expensive but also very rewarding. If you play Pick 4's, or Pick 6's, even Pick 3's you often have little choice but to use the button or simply hope for a certain outcome.

I hit a $315 pick 4 at Aqueduct last weekend using some chalky horses in a few races with the ALL button.

It all depends on how you use it, and I have to admit there have been quite a few times I used it only to watch chalk run 1,2,3. But I am a believer that using it in the right races makes sense, especially some turf and maiden races that are simply not playable without using it.

[InTheRiver68]

"ALL" isn't a bad choice at all, but whenever I use it, I also go back and pick a few likelies to put extra money on. I've hit some killer exactas with the ALL, but if a low-odds horse comes in with my pick, I'm going to have it more than once.

- InTheRiver68

[Stillriledup]

I think if you have time to 'eliminate' a few horses, you do it. What happens if you're in the process of making your wagers (via phone, internet, live teller, SAM, etc) that you are sort of not really even close to being finished and you want to do some sort of partwheel, "1 with 2 with 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13" and you want to eliminate the 8 horse? What do you do? YOu have to hit "All" because there's really no time to call out or type 10 individual numbers. The All button gives you more time.

So, if using the all button is a TIME issue, i believe that its ok to do it. In my above example, the "all" button only costs you 1 more dollar, but you save precious seconds in the wagering cycle.

[Deepsix]

Years ago I went through a growing phase (or so I believed) that I'd handicap my heart out, spending many hours dissecting, and I'd craft a narrow tri/super bet designed around minimal cost and "best handicapping". Well, after many losing tickets I slowly began to use the "all button" in certain situations (where some of my buddies typically used the "all" button ALL the time and I had resisted), and I did improve on my results. I guess my view is that the "all button" is not a short-cut to the pay window BUT it will get you to the window when used judiciously.

[broadreach]

By clicking 'All' you're wasting $$$ on combinations that have very low probability.

[Zippy Chippy]

By pressing the all button you are giving yourself a chance at a big score. You aren't going to include the 70-1 shot on your own

[Greyfox]

I don't use it often.
However, there are many times that I wish I had.
My problem with the "All" button is that when I hit it the chalk favorite runs in.
When I don't hit it a trainer with one win a year gets his only win.
I got my biggest return ever on the "All" button on the final leg of a Pick 4
when I couldn't make heads nor tails of the race. A 26-1 winner ran in and I scored in the 5 figure range.
In general though, I think that you should put a lot of thought in before you take the board. Then if you can't figure it out, go for All.

[Stillriledup]

What if you're a bettor who takes 5 minutes to make all his complex wagers and is running out of time and still has a few more bets to place? is it ok to "eat" a few combos you don't want, or should you just 'specialize' by eliminating a few horses and get shut out on all the bets you still have to make?

Also, i've found that people who specialize and don't use the all button are normally tossing out the 1 or 2 longest shots. I think that there's really no "edge" in tossing out a couple of 50-1 shots. If you can safely eliminate a 5-1 shot (for example), than i say do it because your edge could be the elimination of the short priced horse. If you're just tossing out the two longest shots, maybe ALL is the better way to go. If you toss out the two longest shots, you don't really have an EDGE per se, you're just tossing two bombs to save money.

I think the key to the ALL button is that you have to toss out horses that you actually don't like and think are underlaid, as opposed to tossing out a couple of bombs to save money. Make this an "Edge" issue and not a "money" issue.

[Saratoga_Mike]

By pressing the all button you are giving yourself a chance at a big score. You aren't going to include the 70-1 shot on your own

Or you can just play the lottery.

[WinterTriangle]

The ALL bet is if for those willing to put their hard-earned money on idea that ALL horses have an EQUAL chance of being in a certain spot (1st, 2nd, 3rd).

I have never found that to be true once I efficiently/effectively handicapped a race.

So, it's a huge waste of money.

If you cannot figure out which horse(s) will be where, then I say pass the race and wager one you're more sure about.

Using all means either you haven't handicapped right, or it's a chaos race / dartboard race

[Saratoga_Mike]

The ALL bet is if for those willing to put their hard-earned money on idea that ALL horses have an EQUAL chance of being in a certain spot (1st, 2nd, 3rd).

I have never found that to be true once I efficiently/effectively handicapped a race.

So, it's a huge waste of money.

If you cannot figure out which horse(s) will be where, then I say pass the race and wager one you're more sure about.

Using all means either you haven't handicapped right, or it's a chaos race / dartboard race

Good post.

[Deepsix]

I differ only slightly- there are many races in which a "stranger" (one you didn't figure) jumps up and hits the board and knocks you out of a winning ticket. Over time a person hopefully notices these potential vulnerabilities and for and additional $16 (for example) it might save your bacon.

There is no 'one answer' when you get down to splitting hairs, except all-all-all will probably be a winning ticket but you'll lose yer azz.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I think serious superfecta wagerers almost have to respect the ALL button. Show me a rider that is down strapping to earn fourth and I'll show you four that aren't. Trying to handicap who will round out the bottom of a super in a contentious field takes too much speculation, so I find the ALL button appropriate in a lot of those cases.

[Stillriledup]

The ALL bet is if for those willing to put their hard-earned money on idea that ALL horses have an EQUAL chance of being in a certain spot (1st, 2nd, 3rd).

I have never found that to be true once I efficiently/effectively handicapped a race.

So, it's a huge waste of money.

If you cannot figure out which horse(s) will be where, then I say pass the race and wager one you're more sure about.

Using all means either you haven't handicapped right, or it's a chaos race / dartboard race


It depends on how many wagers you're making. If you make one tri part wheel as your only bet on the race, than yeah, i'd say you need to 'specialize' and not use ALL. But, if you're betting thousands of dollars on thousands of combinations, than sometimes the 'all' button is effective in calling out your bets quicker, or punching them into the self service machine quicker. Depends on the situation.

[therussmeister]

I've never hit the all button, but I gather I determine my bet size differently than most people. I decide the total amount I want to bet in the race and divide by number of combos, whereas most people seem to decide how much they want to bet per combo, and than multiply by number of combos.

Therefore, if I bet all I am reducing, usually sharply, how much I bet on each winning wager, so I feel the occasional long shot I would hit by betting all would not be adequate compensation for all my other winners which might be typically be only 1/3 the bet size.

[lamboguy]

i couldn't think of a worse way to bet. i watch tvg when rich perloff is on, he knocks bridgejumpers, but ofen hits the all button. it is worse than an oxymoran, because hitting the all button can put you in a losing position on your bet incase you win it. bridgejumping atleast gives you a plus guarantee!

[Greyfox]

i couldn't think of a worse way to bet. i watch tvg when rich perloff is on, he knocks bridgejumpers, but ofen hits the all button. it is worse than an oxymoran, because hitting the all button can put you in a losing position on your bet incase you win it. bridgejumping atleast gives you a plus guarantee!

There are some times, not often, when the "All Button" is the smartest way to bet. That's not an "oxymoran," (a word that doesn't exist but sounds like a goon for a gangster named Bugsy. ;) )

[bobphilo]

Or you can just play the lottery.

Right, the all button is just plain anti-handicapping. There are just too many horses whose chances of winning are so unlikely and offer no value at any price, that including them all is just a bad bet.

The big score that one might bring you is eventually lost back by all the losing bets you waste money on if you keep playing the all button.

Bob

[ManeMediaMogul]

There are some times, not often, when the "All Button" is the smartest way to bet. That's not an "oxymoran," (a word that doesn't exist but sounds like a goon for a gangster named Bugsy. ;) )

A great post all the way around!

[classhandicapper]

I rarely use the ALL button, but from a value perspective if you thought the odds board was generally reflecting the chances of all the horses properly using the ALL button would make perfect sense. However, usually you can find 1 or 2 horses that you think are overbet because many longshots are wildly overbet to win and even more overbet in exotics because so many people DO use the ALL button when they shouldn't.

[Stillriledup]

By definition, the all button means you're automatically losing the takeout. I think the best way to utilize the all button is to make sure there's a horse who is 5-1 or less that you absolutely hate. (i guess you can go all except the 5-1 shot) but you need to make sure that you dislike a 5-1 or less in order to at least somewhat buffer the 20 percent (or more) that you're paying for the privilege.

[raybo]

I personally remove all horses, in my superfectas, that "cannot" finish at least 4th. This is one of the first things I do when handicapping a race. Of the remaining horses I decide how many should be included on the bottom of the ticket. It depends on how much value I am going to get as to how many remaining horses are put on the bottom. If I have value on top and the pool size is large then I will include more horses on the bottom, sometimes all the remaining horses. In normal pool sizes I include 1/2 the remaining field plus 1, on the bottom.

[docicu3]

Last years Derby was confusing to say the least so I hit the all button as a key for tri's and played 3 combinations to All/1,2,15,16/1,2,15,16..........20K

Played Bernadini/Sweetnrthrnsnt/All in Barbaro's Preakness disaster.........again a very nice payoff. You have to be very selective but with likely chaotic outcomes it can be a usefull tool

[JohnGalt1]

The only correct answer is what works for YOU.

If a race is total chaos, I either pass the race or hit the all button.

If I don't have a key horse and I think 2/3's of the horses could win, I hit the all button or pass.

An example was March 12, Aquaduct, pick 4 starting race 2.

My ticket all/5/256/346=$54

First leg was $35k maiden claiming NY bred--all equally bad in my opinion.

The 30-1 wires the field. ML favorites win the next three. Payoff $842.

I WAS lucky the longshot won the first leg, but in my opinion he had as good a shot as the others.

Now if the first leg had 10 horses? I would not have played a $90 ticket.

February 24, Aquaduct, pick four race 6. 4/25789/1/all=$45. The singles were favorites. Second leg was 8-1 morning line, paid $8.80 for the win. Final leg won by third choice in ML. All horses in last leg, a $7500 clm, were too close in ability for me to separate.

Pay off was $ $489.

I don't hit the all button often due to expense. I also specialize in 3/4 pick fours with or without an all race where I get zilch.

If any horse can finish third I hit the all in trifectas, or I don't play.

I have lost exotics that paid well because I SAVED money by eliminating some horses in cententious races.

Haven't we all lost races we would've won with better bet structuring?

[rastajenk]

It would have been useful in Dubai's 6th today in horizontal action. :eek:

[Igeteven]

Not for Lewiston, Me, the home of the pick 6, winners

[badcompany]

When you play "all" what you really want is a longshot to come in, so why not just play the longshots and save the extra money?

Of course, some here will say, "But what if one of the other horse comes in?"

Then, you take your lumps and move onto the next race. You wouldn't have made a big score anyway.

[rastajenk]

It would have been useful in Dubai's 6th today in horizontal action. :eek:
8th, too!

[Stillriledup]

Not for Lewiston, Me, the home of the pick 6, winners

Oh Lester, no need to be jealous.

[WeirdWilly]

When you play "all" what you really want is a longshot to come in, so why not just play the longshots and save the extra money?

Of course, some here will say, "But what if one of the other horse comes in?"

Then, you take your lumps and move onto the next race. You wouldn't have made a big score anyway.

I found that out the hard way. Early on, I did an All-All-All-All on a seven horse ten cent super at Sam Houston. $81 got me $8.00 and some change.

At least I hit! :lol:

[lamboguy]

Not for Lewiston, Me, the home of the pick 6, winners
is that where those computer experts coldconked the breeders cup pick 6 with 2 $100 winners and then they hit the all button for the rest?

if those guys weren't so cheap they would still be hitting pick sixes today instead of sitting in the can.

[Stillriledup]

is that where those computer experts coldconked the breeders cup pick 6 with 2 $100 winners and then they hit the all button for the rest?

if those guys weren't so cheap they would still be hitting pick sixes today instead of sitting in the can.

Um no, that's not where the computer experts 'did' the Pick 6.

[turfnsport]

And Chris Harn and his buddies are out of jail.

[Stillriledup]

And Chris Harn and his buddies are out of jail.

:(

[Igeteven]

Oh Lester, no need to be jealous.


:blush: :blush: :blush: :blush:


:)

[Figaro]

bump

I'm a newbie just learning how to play Pick 3 and Pick 4's so I will be experimenting with this this "ALL" button pretty soon for at least one leg in Woodbine's races tonight. Wish me luck!

[Kevroc]

bump

I'm a newbie just learning how to play Pick 3 and Pick 4's so I will be experimenting with this this "ALL" button pretty soon for at least one leg in Woodbine's races tonight. Wish me luck!


Regarding WOO pick3 and pick4.

The minimum bet is .20 , that makes the pool ultra-efficient.

This isn't about the ALL button, but when you decide to structure tickets, do not just make one caveman ticket. Play multiple tickets, structure them so that the combinations you deem more likely are played a few times.

Even the longer priced combos look to return small, because it's only a .20 base. Use DRF's Betmaker to help with your structuring if you haven't done this before.

Ticket structure is more important than thinking about the ALL button.

Personally, I think the ALL button is for certain rare situations.. like carryover days or mandatory payout days.

[FiveWide]

I can't remember the last time I used the 'ALL' button but I mightuse it in a chaos race. Other times I might use it is when I have to play a race (horizontals) and I've got no clue on the race. Btw, I very rarely play horizontals because of this. I don't like being forced to play a race I don't like.


-Five

[BetCrazyGirl]

Crist says this a lazy way of wagering...the last 2 months i have had tough beats in the last leg of a pick 3 and 4....
Is it a bad wager pushing the all button?
Any input will be appreciated?

That's when I enjoy using the all button, in the last legs so I don't have to worry over it. Its heart breaking when you hit all the other legs and then its the last one that kills the ticket.

[usedtolovetvg]

Ever since I took 8 of 9 when I knew the 60-1 had no chance and, of course, he won for fun, I have changed my tune. I find the deeper I go in a race that is telling me I have less of a clue. It seems I win more often with my singles than my spreads. I like to find 2 singles in the P4 and then have no problem going all-all. If this scenario doesn't play out, I'll play tris and exs.

[raybo]

Although I can't remember ever having used the "All" button, there are times that one would, almost, be stupid not to use it, carry overs come to mind with a couple of "pat" winners at potentially good odds, a small field, etc..

[DigitalDownsJoe]

I like the ALL button in dog racing...not horse racing :)

[Dahoss2002]

If I use the "all" button, you can bet the favorite with confidence.

[Uncle Salty]

That's when I enjoy using the all button, in the last legs so I don't have to worry over it. Its heart breaking when you hit all the other legs and then its the last one that kills the ticket.

I would be more likely to use the next to last leg of a horizontal wager....at least if you make it to the last one, most of your uncovered horses are probably the long-shots anyways and you can hedge those...

This situation happens often enough in the SoCal late pick4, where the feature race is one of those 5 or 6 horse field N2X/lower level stakes. I'll just cover ALL in those situations as it's not much more than just covering my secondary and marginal contenders. And then I can breathe easier if I make it through the first two legs...

[sammy the sage]

I would be more likely to use the next to last leg of a horizontal wager....at least if you make it to the last one, most of your uncovered horses are probably the long-shots anyways and you can hedge those...

This situation happens often enough in the SoCal late pick4, where the feature race is one of those 5 or 6 horse field N2X/lower level stakes. I'll just cover ALL in those situations as it's not much more than just covering my secondary and marginal contenders. And then I can breathe easier if I make it through the first two legs...

Really....hedging on 14 horse maiden claimer IS TOUGH... :faint:

[mrhorseplayer]

think it has to do with the wager in question. If your playing multi race exotics and a race in the sequence is all FTS or 1 race horses the all button might be your friend , if your playing an exacta the all button would be a bad bet, if your playing a super with a key horse then for the 4th spot the all button might be a good wager or same with a tri.

[MightBeSosa]

Hitting the all button simply means you are betting on chaos and under weighting the favorities. If that's what you intend, go for it.

[raybo]

Preface the following with "In my opinion".

Much of the determination to use the "All" button, should depend on the wager type, number of runners, and expected minimum payout/size of the pool.

Except in short fields (under 8 horses), one can always throw out at least a horse, or more, even in chaos races. If one can't do that, usually the decision should be made to pass the wager completely (obvious exceptions noted, of course). Throwing horses out should be one of the first, if not the first, things one should attempt to do. Those horses should have no ability to affect the pace of the race, and lacks a strong late kick, ie: not an inside post, has poor start history, has no early speed, always in the back of the pack in the first half of races, and hasn't shown the ability to gain many lengths in the last half of his/her races. These horses are obvious throwouts. One should be able to further filter the field (8 or more runners) by other means, most of the time, also.

Since the start of my superfecta only play, starting in 2004-05 as a full time player, I can remember no wagers made using the "All" button, even on the "4th" line. One could make the case for it in short fields of 7 horses, or rare 6 horse superfecta races, but normally these short fields don't meet the expected minimum payout criteria so they are pass races anyway.

In the "picks" one can certainly make a case for one leg, in a short field, in a picks series with other legs of singled horses. But again, expected minimum payout comes into play in those cases.

[cnollfan]

I think if you have time to 'eliminate' a few horses, you do it. What happens if you're in the process of making your wagers (via phone, internet, live teller, SAM, etc) that you are sort of not really even close to being finished and you want to do some sort of partwheel, "1 with 2 with 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13" and you want to eliminate the 8 horse? What do you do? YOu have to hit "All" because there's really no time to call out or type 10 individual numbers. The All button gives you more time.

So, if using the all button is a TIME issue, i believe that its ok to do it. In my above example, the "all" button only costs you 1 more dollar, but you save precious seconds in the wagering cycle.

This is an excellent point regarding real-life betting. Sometimes you have to spend a few extra bucks to ensure getting the bet in on time. Sure, in the long run you would prefer to only bet on horses you like and not on horses you dislike, but to paraphrase Leonard Bernstein, great art happens with an idea and not enough time.

[MightBeSosa]

It's popular to claim that one can always 'throw out' one or more horses, but in real play, much harder to do with consistency. Throwing out 50-1 shots might work for ya 30 times, then cost you 10k the 31st.

If you're tossing chalk, that's another matter.

[raybo]

It's popular to claim that one can always 'throw out' one or more horses, but in real play, much harder to do with consistency. Throwing out 50-1 shots might work for ya 30 times, then cost you 10k the 31st.

If you're tossing chalk, that's another matter.

The odds have nothing to do with tossing horses. You toss them because they cannot compete, at all, regardless of the price.