Is racing struggling, or not?

[Stillriledup]

Have you ever heard the saying, "you are what your record says you are?" I think its a saying invented by Bill Parcells the famous football coach (and huge racing fan).

I'm just not sure its fair to compare today's state of racing to 30 and 40 years ago. These are much different times. We aren't going to get back those big crowds. That stuff we used to know from the old days is kind of messing with our minds and making us think that racing is struggling. Is racing struggling compared to yesteryear? Of course it is, but this is the natural progression, this is what happens when the internet takes off and the society has many more entertainment options to choose from.

We aren't going to get back the live crowds that used to attend racing. Remember, those crowds didn't have the opportunity to bet with the internet or phone and they didn't have the ability to wager on simulcast races either. If you wanted to bet on live horse racing you had to go to the track, period. And, you had to bet on their product at their rates.

Racing is where its supposed to be. It is what the attendance says it is. We aren't going to squeeze one more fan thru the turnstiles and one of our problems is that we keep trying to put the genie back in the bottle. We keep trying to capture the glory of yesteryear of the massive live crowds...this just isn't ever going to happen.

If you compare live racing today with live racing back in the day, it appears that racing is on the downslope. But, maybe its just natural progression and racing was 'overrated' back in the day. Racing's advantages of being a gambling monopoly are long gone, yet the industry keeps acting like they have a monopoly on things and can't understand why the fans are leaving.

I think that racing's key is to try extremely hard to keep their current fans happy as opposed to 'ticking off' the current fan base at the expense of trying to 'recruit' new fans.

The best way for a car dealership (for example) to get new customers is to make sure that people who purchased a car off them in the past are the most satisfied people on the planet. Word of mouth is HUGE. You can't 'recruit' new customers if you treat the current customers like crap, people aren't stupid. If racing's fans were treated like gold, non fans would know this and want to get involved. As it stands now, very few current racing fans are willing to introduce new fans to the game, most of that comes from the way they're treated. Treat current customers like VIPs and the word will get around.

[dav4463]

Baseball, horse racing, and boxing used to dominate.

Too many other entertainment opportunities out there today I guess.

[thaskalos]

Have you ever heard the saying, "you are what your record says you are?" I think its a saying invented by Bill Parcells the famous football coach (and huge racing fan).

I'm just not sure its fair to compare today's state of racing to 30 and 40 years ago. These are much different times. We aren't going to get back those big crowds. That stuff we used to know from the old days is kind of messing with our minds and making us think that racing is struggling. Is racing struggling compared to yesteryear? Of course it is, but this is the natural progression, this is what happens when the internet takes off and the society has many more entertainment options to choose from.

We aren't going to get back the live crowds that used to attend racing. Remember, those crowds didn't have the opportunity to bet with the internet or phone and they didn't have the ability to wager on simulcast races either. If you wanted to bet on live horse racing you had to go to the track, period. And, you had to bet on their product at their rates.

Racing is where its supposed to be. It is what the attendance says it is. We aren't going to squeeze one more fan thru the turnstiles and one of our problems is that we keep trying to put the genie back in the bottle. We keep trying to capture the glory of yesteryear of the massive live crowds...this just isn't ever going to happen.

If you compare live racing today with live racing back in the day, it appears that racing is on the downslope. But, maybe its just natural progression and racing was 'overrated' back in the day. Racing's advantages of being a gambling monopoly are long gone, yet the industry keeps acting like they have a monopoly on things and can't understand why the fans are leaving.

I think that racing's key is to try extremely hard to keep their current fans happy as opposed to 'ticking off' the current fan base at the expense of trying to 'recruit' new fans.

The best way for a car dealership (for example) to get new customers is to make sure that people who purchased a car off them in the past are the most satisfied people on the planet. Word of mouth is HUGE. You can't 'recruit' new customers if you treat the current customers like crap, people aren't stupid. If racing's fans were treated like gold, non fans would know this and want to get involved. As it stands now, very few current racing fans are willing to introduce new fans to the game, most of that comes from the way they're treated. Treat current customers like VIPs and the word will get around. It is wrong to compare horse racing to other entertainment venues, because horse racing is a gambling game. People will play it as long as it remains a good gamble. The biggest mistake the racing industry made was that they treated their product as entertainment. We can all remember the days when the Racing Form used to report the nation-wide track attendence on the front page, right next to the other sporting events, as if it was the same thing. In entertainment, all the costumers want is a good show, because they are just spectators. In a gambling game, the customers are ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS, and they deserve to be treated as such. The big bettors pay a much higher price then the other players and they deserve special treatment. They get insulted when they hear that "the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry." I have heard this phrase one hundred times in my life, and it shows how little track management knows about running a gambling game. They should take a look at the casino industry if they want to see how a big bettor is supposed to be treated.

It was greed, pure and simple, that destroyed on-track attendence. Even an idiot would have known that, with OTBs opening all over the place, the people would stop going to the track. The fact that they continue to charge admission and parking fees is a testament to how clueless they are. Greed, IMO, is also the number one reason the mutual handle is plummeting nation-wide. The game has gotten very expensive to play. Let me offer an exampe to show how ludicrous this business has become. I don't know about other states, but in Illinois, all the OTBs are owned by the tracks themselves. What possible reason do they have to withhold an additional 4-5% from the payoffs of their customers, not to mention the double breakage? Don't they already take enough from the pools to pay for expenses? How are the people supposed to continue playing this game when the takeout is bankrupting them at record speed?

[Robert Goren]

I think we know that the whales get better deals than the small better and as a very small better I really don't mind. Just don't rub in my face. JMO

[wisconsin]

There are still places where going to the track is tradition. You'll always get the bigger crowds daily at Del Mar, Keenland, Oaklawn, Saratoga, and on occasion Churchill, Monmouth, Arlington and Santa Anita. Otherwise, a crowd of 3,000 is a great crowd these days.

People are just not willing to go through the hassle of going to the track anymore. It costs too much and if you have a family, forget about it. I'll go to the ballgame, instead.

You can't expect good crowds when it costs $5 to get in, then another $4 for a beer, and $5 for a pre-cooked bratwurst on hot dog rollers. Then you have the short fields, shorter prices, surly mutuel clerks, arrogant ushers and attendants. I love Arlington, but they act too upscale and charge upscale prices, and that's why I only go once or twice a year. I used to go 3-4 days a week, back in the 80's. It's too convenient to play online.

And it is not "entertainment". Dog racing get's it wrong every time they call it a "performance". They are suffering far worse than horse racing.

I remember one time we visited Thisledown on one of my racetrack road trips, and we parked in the wrong area and this real unfriendly parking attendant came over and hollered at me like I was a little school boy. If I was a first time visitor to racing, it would have been the last time on that day!

[Robert Goren]

The really sad part is that the parking attendant would have lost his job if he hadn't yelled at you.;)

[Robert Goren]

To some extent the large betters keep this game alive. But lets not forget their first bet was not 10k. The largest gamblers in any sport or game always start at the bottom level and move up through the ranks. They need to grow at the bottom to grow at the top. Party Poker figured that out. It just too bad that no one in racing has. The one thing that online poker has always had as a key to their marketing is there is aways a game. Racing need to get together and make that happen. The Ohio 7 + 7 and California's effort coordinate post times are step in the right direction. JMO

[Horseplayersbet.com]

To some extent the large betters keep this game alive. But lets not forget their first bet was not 10k. The largest gamblers in any sport or game always start at the bottom level and move up through the ranks. They need to grow at the bottom to grow at the top. Party Poker figured that out. It just too bad that no one in racing has. The one thing that online poker has always had as a key to their marketing is there is aways a game. Racing need to get together and make that happen. The Ohio 7 + 7 and California's effort coordinate post times are step in the right direction. JMO
If you've ever played Betfair, there is always a game too. Races go off 5-10 minutes apart max.
If I'm playing 4 tracks in an afternoon online, I barely have time to make sure I'm not making mistakes.
Even if at the track with simulcasting, there is usually something to bet every 6 minutes or so.

[Stillriledup]

It is wrong to compare horse racing to other entertainment venues, because horse racing is a gambling game. People will play it as long as it remains a good gamble. The biggest mistake the racing industry made was that they treated their product as entertainment. We can all remember the days when the Racing Form used to report the nation-wide track attendence on the front page, right next to the other sporting events, as if it was the same thing. In entertainment, all the costumers want is a good show, because they are just spectators. In a gambling game, the customers are ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS, and they deserve to be treated as such. The big bettors pay a much higher price then the other players and they deserve special treatment. They get insulted when they hear that "the $2 bettor is the backbone of the industry." I have heard this phrase one hundred times in my life, and it shows how little track management knows about running a gambling game. They should take a look at the casino industry if they want to see how a big bettor is supposed to be treated.

It was greed, pure and simple, that destroyed on-track attendence. Even an idiot would have known that, with OTBs opening all over the place, the people would stop going to the track. The fact that they continue to charge admission and parking fees is a testament to how clueless they are. Greed, IMO, is also the number one reason the mutual handle is plummeting nation-wide. The game has gotten very expensive to play. Let me offer an exampe to show how ludicrous this business has become. I don't know about other states, but in Illinois, all the OTBs are owned by the tracks themselves. What possible reason do they have to withhold an additional 4-5% from the payoffs of their customers, not to mention the double breakage? Don't they already take enough from the pools to pay for expenses? How are the people supposed to continue playing this game when the takeout is bankrupting them at record speed?

Great points. :ThmbUp:

[JohnGalt1]

Handicapping takes time and skill.

Going to movies, playing video games, watching TV, playing slots, etc, etc, doesn't.

Going to the track for live racing takes time and costs more.

Betting online doesn't.

[TizTheOne]

Is racing struggling? Are you serious? That is like asking is the United States going bankrupt.

NY, KY and CA racing are all broken. NY is so bad they are crying bankruptcy again and KY has trainer after trainer leaving. CA racing is broke, but that is fitting for CA considering the state issues IOU's to pay vendors. How pathetic is that.

[boomman]

Wisconsin: I get your point and in fact we have free admission on Mondays and Tuesdays ($2 on Saturdays and Sundays) and free parking 100% of the time. But what I don't get is your insinuation that baseball games are cheaper. Have you been to a ballgame lately? Someone's got to pay those salaries and it's you! I took in an AZ Diamondback game last year on one of my off days at Yavapai, and the parking was I believe $12, admission was about $35 for a medium box seat, beers I believe were $8 each, 2 hamburgers was about $25, and I easily went for close to $150 bucks, and that was just for 2 people, not a family of 4. About once a yr would be my maximum of doing that. All I'm saying is we as an industry DO need to offer our customers the most value for their wagering (and entertainment buck because many customers do make a day at the track one of entertainment, and that is our chance to get them interested in the wagering side of our sport) and I am committed to doing so,as well as making sure you get GREAT customer service when you attend our track. In fact, we did have an isolated incident last season in which a mutuel teller didn't handle a customer service situation properly and that was promptly dealt with. But I sure as heck don't think MLB prices are a good comparison..........JMHO;)

Boomer

[Stillriledup]

Is racing struggling? Are you serious? That is like asking is the United States going bankrupt.

NY, KY and CA racing are all broken. NY is so bad they are crying bankruptcy again and KY has trainer after trainer leaving. CA racing is broke, but that is fitting for CA considering the state issues IOU's to pay vendors. How pathetic is that.

Its pathetic. But, it could be possible that this is the way its supposed to be. We THINK that racing is struggling because there was a point in time when it WASNT struggling and that is what we are comparing it to. We are comparing the current state of racing to racing from back in the day and we shouldnt do that because its an entirely different animal. The comparisons are getting us in trouble because racing execs are treating the current racing model too similarly to what's worked for many years. Society has changed drastically and racing's higher ups haven't kept up with the times.

[Ejmenz]

The handle is decreasing, because of access it should be increasing.

As a business you say, costumers don't like the odds, lets lower them see what happens.

That's logical, Horse Racing has never tried that, they assume the handle will grow as it becomes harder to win at the game, it's really insane.

[Stillriledup]

The handle is decreasing, because of access it should be increasing.

As a business you say, costumers don't like the odds, lets lower them see what happens.

That's logical, Horse Racing has never tried that, they assume the handle will grow as it becomes harder to win at the game, it's really insane.


Good points, i'm going to run with your comments about harder to win.

I think that this game is much more difficult to beat in 2010 than it was in 1980. There are so many computer geeks running around with programs, speed figures, etc. You had none of this back in the day, there wasn't even beyer figs, if you wanted a speed fig, you had to make it yourself pretty much.

The takeouts have stayed the same, but because the game has become much tougher to beat, the takeouts need to be lowered in relation with the degree of difficulty.

People who have trumpeted about takeout mattering or not mattering have never mentioned that because the game is much tougher to beat, that takeout rates staying the same over the last 30 years has really meant a lot to the average player.

Back in the day, i used to just wake up out of bed, do a little work and win. It wasn't all that hard if you had a brain, payed attention and did some smart things. Nowadays, you have to do many more hours of work on videotape, you have to crunch speed figures or purchase them for 25 bucks a day, you have to almost put full time work into this game to even have a shot.

Takeout for NFL bets are under 10%, i think that horse racing needs to lower takeouts to 7% for WPS and 10% for exotics. Also, i believe that the game needs to pay prices out to the penny, especially on place and show bets. Many people have internet accounts and even most of the people who bet at the track nowadays bet with vouchers at self service machines.....when you cash for 42 dollars and 31 cents, that voucher just gets 'consolidated' with your other vouchers.....its not like you are going to hog up a betting line cashing for pennies (which was the original argument as to why racetracks needed to round off prices to 20 cents). There's no more reason to not pay prices out to pennies.

If you want to still post payoffs that are rounded off, that's one thing, but when that person cashes, they need to be paid every penny they earned....no more leaving stray pennies on the table, that time has come for this to change.