Australian horse racing vs. US

[GlenninOhio]

From 3/22/10 "Thoroughbred Times Today", a quote from trainer and pinhooker John Brocklebank of BC3 Thoroughbreds, which has joint operations in the US and Australia:

"One thing I really like about Australia is the people down there are fabulously in love with the horse business. You get in a cab and they're listening to horse racing. It's like it was here 50 years ago. It's hog heaven for a horse guy. It's like the Seabiscuit days down there."

Is anyone familiar with the situation In Australia?

Do they not have casinos and slots and poker rooms? Do they not have major team sports that captivate the sports fan public?

Is there something the thoroughbred business down there does or doesn't do that accounts for this huge popularity?

Is there an answer in the Australian model that could be the salvation for the US product?

[Seabiscuit@AR]

The situation in Australia is perhaps not quite as golden as this article suggests. I read a few years back that only 3% of the population in Australia follows the races on a regular basis and that is probably about right. But horse racing in Australia is still relatively much more popular than in America of that I am sure. One thing Australia has is the Melbourne Cup known as the "race which stops a nation". Not sure how that came about but it does give the races in Victoria something to build around. From a young age you learn about the Melbourne Cup or you did when I was growing up. The Victorian spring carnival is always good and builds up to the Melbourne Cup as its climax. The timing of the Victorian spring carnival is fortunate in that it tends to fall neatly in between the end of the football seasons of the winter and the cricket season of the summer. So for a few weeks of the year the races do get a fair bit of coverage. But this is only a few weeks of the year

If there is another major difference between Australia and the USA it is the betting landscape provides more choice for the bettor/punter. Racing officials and state governments had the same vision as the USA officials. A tote monopoly and that would be it. But fortunately for people who like to bet these plans for a tote monopoly came unstuck. This was largely due to the efforts of some bookies who moved up to the Northern Territory a few years back which taxed them lower than other Australian states. The bookies were able to offer internet fixed price betting to people at home. Not long after this Betfair appeared on the scene and got a licence from the state of Tasmania. So now you can bet fixed odds over the internet from home with Betfair or various bookies. Even the TABs who run the totes not only offer tote odds but fixed odds as well. So the competition from internet bookies and Betfair has forced the TABs to offer a better service to the bettor.

The internet bookies also offered a "best tote" product or variation of this which means you generally got tote odds plus a few percent on top (kind of like a rebate)

In addition Betfair's betting exchange platform adds a new dimension to betting in that you can bet against horses you don't like. It also brings a new form of player the trader into the mix. The traders add extra money to the market I am sure of that

I will add there are still one or two racing officials who want to take Australian back to the dark old days of the tote monopoly as still exists in the USA. But thankfully it is probably too late for that to happen

[gm10]

The situation in Australia is perhaps not quite as golden as this article suggests. I read a few years back that only 3% of the population in Australia follows the races on a regular basis and that is probably about right. But horse racing in Australia is still relatively much more popular than in America of that I am sure. One thing Australia has is the Melbourne Cup known as the "race which stops a nation". Not sure how that came about but it does give the races in Victoria something to build around. From a young age you learn about the Melbourne Cup or you did when I was growing up. The Victorian spring carnival is always good and builds up to the Melbourne Cup as its climax. The timing of the Victorian spring carnival is fortunate in that it tends to fall neatly in between the end of the football seasons of the winter and the cricket season of the summer. So for a few weeks of the year the races do get a fair bit of coverage. But this is only a few weeks of the year

If there is another major difference between Australia and the USA it is the betting landscape provides more choice for the bettor/punter. Racing officials and state governments had the same vision as the USA officials. A tote monopoly and that would be it. But fortunately for people who like to bet these plans for a tote monopoly came unstuck. This was largely due to the efforts of some bookies who moved up to the Northern Territory a few years back which taxed them lower than other Australian states. The bookies were able to offer internet fixed price betting to people at home. Not long after this Betfair appeared on the scene and got a licence from the state of Tasmania. So now you can bet fixed odds over the internet from home with Betfair or various bookies. Even the TABs who run the totes not only offer tote odds but fixed odds as well. So the competition from internet bookies and Betfair has forced the TABs to offer a better service to the bettor.

The internet bookies also offered a "best tote" product or variation of this which means you generally got tote odds plus a few percent on top (kind of like a rebate)

In addition Betfair's betting exchange platform adds a new dimension to betting in that you can bet against horses you don't like. It also brings a new form of player the trader into the mix. The traders add extra money to the market I am sure of that

I will add there are still one or two racing officials who want to take Australian back to the dark old days of the tote monopoly as still exists in the USA. But thankfully it is probably too late for that to happen

It's amazing what a bit of competition can do! A tote monopoly really are the dark old days.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Yes gm10 that is the key, competition. One thing I should have mentioned is that the Australian TABs that run the totes went from being run and owned by the various state governments to becoming privately owned companies (privatisation they called it) back in the 1990s. This is what set the stage for the bookies and Betfair to compete with the totes. My guess is that when the TABs went private there was no real plan for any competition instead they were going to slowly over time up the takeout rates. But then the internet became widespread and that is what allowed bookies and Betfair to compete

In the USA it seems the state governments are still bound up with the horsemen. While this is the case I don't think you will see any change or any competition

[speculus]

The situation in Australia is perhaps not quite as golden as this article suggests. I read a few years back that only 3% of the population in Australia follows the races on a regular basis and that is probably about right. But horse racing in Australia is still relatively much more popular than in America of that I am sure. One thing Australia has is the Melbourne Cup known as the "race which stops a nation". Not sure how that came about but it does give the races in Victoria something to build around. From a young age you learn about the Melbourne Cup or you did when I was growing up. The Victorian spring carnival is always good and builds up to the Melbourne Cup as its climax. The timing of the Victorian spring carnival is fortunate in that it tends to fall neatly in between the end of the football seasons of the winter and the cricket season of the summer. So for a few weeks of the year the races do get a fair bit of coverage. But this is only a few weeks of the year

If there is another major difference between Australia and the USA it is the betting landscape provides more choice for the bettor/punter. Racing officials and state governments had the same vision as the USA officials. A tote monopoly and that would be it. But fortunately for people who like to bet these plans for a tote monopoly came unstuck. This was largely due to the efforts of some bookies who moved up to the Northern Territory a few years back which taxed them lower than other Australian states. The bookies were able to offer internet fixed price betting to people at home. Not long after this Betfair appeared on the scene and got a licence from the state of Tasmania. So now you can bet fixed odds over the internet from home with Betfair or various bookies. Even the TABs who run the totes not only offer tote odds but fixed odds as well. So the competition from internet bookies and Betfair has forced the TABs to offer a better service to the bettor.

The internet bookies also offered a "best tote" product or variation of this which means you generally got tote odds plus a few percent on top (kind of like a rebate)

In addition Betfair's betting exchange platform adds a new dimension to betting in that you can bet against horses you don't like. It also brings a new form of player the trader into the mix. The traders add extra money to the market I am sure of that

I will add there are still one or two racing officials who want to take Australian back to the dark old days of the tote monopoly as still exists in the USA. But thankfully it is probably too late for that to happen

It may be wrong to think that having extra options to bet (with the bookie or Betfair) is the real reason for the difference.

In fact, Tote monopoly is the best thing that can happen to racing industry PROVIDED the Tote operation is EFFICIENT, TRANSPARENT & with LOW TAXES.

Hong Kong is a shining example of how an the ideal Tote monopoly works. Compare that to UK where the Tote first lost out to the bookies and then to Betfair. No wonder that English racing is not what it used to be.

[Charlie D]

http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/2008/02/global-perspect.html



Hong Kong hold very few races so the bettors money is concentrated instead of widespread.

Look at amount bet per person in the above link and you'll see, GB, Ireland and Aus in top 3 behind the country above. Whereas Tote Monopolies like France and USA are down at the bottom


So it would seem that giving bettors the choice of Tote, Book and Exchange generates more interest from the betting public than a Tote Monopoly does.



48 bucks per resident is poor and imho there is a lot of room for improvement. US racing leaders need to get round table with people like Jeff Platt and come up with a new business model for US racing.

[Charlie D]

No wonder that English racing is not what it used to be.


Not sure what you mean by this comment, but Cheltenham Festival seem to be very well supported according the news articles i read.

[speculus]

http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/2008/02/global-perspect.html



Hong Kong hold very few races so the bettors money is concentrated instead of widespread.

Look at amount bet per person in the above link and you'll see, GB, Ireland and Aus in top 3 behind the country above. Whereas Tote Monopolies like France and USA are down at the bottom


So it would seem that giving bettors the choice of Tote, Book and Exchange generates more interest from the betting public than a Tote Monopoly does.



48 bucks per resident is poor and imho there is a lot of room for improvement. US racing leaders need to get round table with people like Jeff Platt and come up with a new business model for US racing.

I don't understand this "very few races so the bettors money is concentrated instead of widespread" logic. In fact it's quite the contrary.

722 races means only 722 events to gamble, still HK massively outperforms the bigger racing industries so they must be doing something damn bloody right.

And the major reason must be an efficient and transparent tote with reasonable level of taxes as opposed to US and France who suffer terribly on these two counts (especially the US, I don't know too much about France).

Complaints of late change of odds from even sensible writers, fraud (like the Breeders' cup thing) and foolishly exorbitant taxes (the CHRB's latest move shows how moronic the US racing adminstrators can get!) clearly indicate the US has a long way to go to exploit the Tote monopoly in an efficient way.

Tote monopoly, by and in itself, is of no use if your tote is driving away customers.

But getting the bookies or Betfair will not help the industry in the long run.

The bookies will always take the money out of this game, while the biggest problem with Betfair (it's a great technological innovation, no doubt) is that unlike the Tote, the system may unwittingly reward the people resorting to malpractice which must be viewed as the biggest curse this sport has to live with.

An efficient, high tech and low-tax Tote can be as effective as Betfair without striking at the spirit of this sport which is "to be competitive and try to win."

[speculus]

Not sure what you mean by this comment, but Cheltenham Festival seem to be very well supported according the news articles i read.

What happened when Vodaphone pulled out as sponsor of the Epsom Derby? It went almost without a sponsor, did it not?

When your biggest race can almost go without a sponsor, racing in your country is surely not looking up, is it?

Festivals will always be covered in the press, but your racing's real popularity reflects only in your on-course attendance and your betting handles. Are they good? If not, are they rising?

If NO, then the scene for racing is bad and likely to go further downhill.

[nearco]

Do they not have casinos and slots and poker rooms? Do they not have major team sports that captivate the sports fan public?



There are casinos in almost every Australian state except WA.

Do they have major team sports??? :lol: Jesus, yeah they do. Aussie Rules, Rugby Union, Rubgy League, and Cricket are huge and increasingly soccer is too. Tennis, Golf, motorsports etc would be big draws also. They would be one of the most sports mad nations on the planet. Look at their medal count at the Olympics, the box way above their weight, usually end up in the top 5 countries regards medals won. That's impressive for a country of only 20 million people.

[nearco]

The situation in Australia is perhaps not quite as golden as this article suggests. I read a few years back that only 3% of the population in Australia follows the races on a regular basis and that is probably about right. But horse racing in Australia is still relatively much more popular than in America of that I am sure.

I believe horse racing ranks second only to Aussie Rules football in attendance. Of course that's not always a fair apples to apples comparison of popularity, as there is horse racing every day of the week, not so in other sports.
But still, people do get out to the races there.

[Charlie D]

Inagine, only Stakes races in US racing and you get the idea of the HK model



How many tracks, horsemen, racing employees are you going to put out of business with this idea please??

But getting the bookies or Betfair will not help the industry in the long run.



You don't know that and btw, the Betfair betting Exchange has proven a highly succesful model.

I wouldn't have bookies tbh, as books are leeches like the horsemen, but i would have a betting exchange as these are attractive to people who have no interest in the outcome of the event.



What losing a sponsor has to do with anything i'm not sure, it happens, the Grand National has had several sponsors over the years and s still going to be staged like the Epsom Derby is.

[46zilzal]

One of our directors is over there right now studying their tv coverage to bring back some ideas here.

Also I used to write to the director of racing at Campertown and he was telling me the entire town closes down when a race meet is underway..

[cj's dad]

Two friends of mine combined a visit to New Zealand and Australia with the Melbourne Cup -

to put it mildly, they were left in amazement regarding the enthusiasm,crowd, limos, dress, beauty, pageantry etc.... and the fact that on a Tuesday, the entire country shuts down.

[nearco]

http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/2008/02/global-perspect.html




Here is an interesting point of view that one of the posters left in the comments section of that Crist blog...

..........................
I moved to Sydney from NY and it is difficult to describe to American racing fans the difference in culture surrounding the sport between the two countries. Foremost, Australian racetracks are social venues. Even the smallest towns have a racetrack. According to Wikipedia there are 379 racetracks in Australia. I found it interesting that Australia has 38% the number of America's races, but about 6% of America's population. Racetracks are acceptable places to socialize and get dressed up and not the soulless caverns one typicaly finds in America (Aqueduct may come to mind). Racing is considered a real sport in Australia with regular front page coverage and generally recognizable equine and human participants.

With fixed odds bookmakers on every racecourse, an Australian bettor can focus on win betting and does not need to resort to gimmicky superfectas, pick sixes and Magna Fives to overcome America's exorbitant 15-25% takeout. The Australian racetracks make a good proportion of their income on admissions and alcohol sales and not betting pool monopolization anyway.

Finally, with strict medication rules, 95% turf racing and better quality of life for its horses, Australian racing is not nearly as bloody as its American counterpart. A horse being vanned off is a rarity and a fatal breakdown is a semi-annual event and not the weekly event it is in America.

Sorry for the long comment, but I wanted to explain why any American fan of the sport of kings owes themselves a trip to a place like Australia where the sport is done right.
..........................

[Charlie D]

Yes nearco, i believe they call it "Picnic racing" , but one of PA's Oz members would know a lot more than i.


A two tier racing structure has been mentioned by some for UK racing.

[Charlie D]

Here is a press release from Betfair i found about thier Oz operations

http://www.betfaircorporate.com.au/pdf/Betfair_sets_the_record_straight_NSW_110609.pdf

[gm10]

Here is an interesting point of view that one of the posters left in the comments section of that Crist blog...

..........................
I moved to Sydney from NY and it is difficult to describe to American racing fans the difference in culture surrounding the sport between the two countries. Foremost, Australian racetracks are social venues. Even the smallest towns have a racetrack. According to Wikipedia there are 379 racetracks in Australia. I found it interesting that Australia has 38% the number of America's races, but about 6% of America's population. Racetracks are acceptable places to socialize and get dressed up and not the soulless caverns one typicaly finds in America (Aqueduct may come to mind). Racing is considered a real sport in Australia with regular front page coverage and generally recognizable equine and human participants.

With fixed odds bookmakers on every racecourse, an Australian bettor can focus on win betting and does not need to resort to gimmicky superfectas, pick sixes and Magna Fives to overcome America's exorbitant 15-25% takeout. The Australian racetracks make a good proportion of their income on admissions and alcohol sales and not betting pool monopolization anyway.

Finally, with strict medication rules, 95% turf racing and better quality of life for its horses, Australian racing is not nearly as bloody as its American counterpart. A horse being vanned off is a rarity and a fatal breakdown is a semi-annual event and not the weekly event it is in America.

Sorry for the long comment, but I wanted to explain why any American fan of the sport of kings owes themselves a trip to a place like Australia where the sport is done right.
..........................

Yes these are two points which I've made here myself. Race tracks must be a nice place for socializing and bringing the families. People will come for the day out, to see the horses (and not watch them break down), to have fun. And they will spend money when they are enjoying themselves.

Basing a race track business around gamblers is futile. They are always broke. Even if you lower takeout to 10% they will always be broke.

[nearco]

Yes these are two points which I've made here myself. Race tracks must be a nice place for socializing and bringing the families. People will come for the day out, to see the horses (and not watch them break down), to have fun. And they will spend money when they are enjoying themselves.

Basing a race track business around gamblers is futile. They are always broke. Even if you lower takeout to 10% they will always be broke.

Besides, nowadays they can all bet from home anyways.

With the exception of the boutique tracks (toga, DM, Kee etc), and few others like SA, Arlington, Belmont, most US tracks have about as much appeal as a plumbing supply warehouse. Tracks should be places to go hang out and have a good time and enjoy the racing. People will naturally bet while they are their, it is inevitable. Play up the Win bet and Place bet, don't over complicate things.

[Charlie D]

gm


gambling drives this bus named racing, the tracks themselves have to do stuff to attract people through the gates.

Here http://www.drf.com/news/article/111608.html is one taking a shot, however, i'm not sure if a load of drunks is attractive to people on a Family day out.

[broadreach]

In an endeavour to boost racetrack attendance this Saturday at Rosehill(Sydney) the on course bettor that bets with the totalizator will receive 10% more than the off course bettor. There'll be no limits on amounts either.
So a winning dividend of $10 will be $11 for the on course bettor. Kudos for trying :ThmbUp:

[Charlie D]

In an endeavour to boost racetrack attendance this Saturday at Rosehill(Sydney) the on course bettor that bets with the totalizator will receive 10% more than the off course bettor. There'll be no limits on amounts either.
So a winning dividend of $10 will be $11 for the on course bettor. Kudos for trying :ThmbUp:


Stuff like that gets a thumbs up from me too broadreach, the tracks have to make going to tracks as attractive as possible, not only for bettors, but none bettors too, as Pimilico seems to be trying to do in the DRF article.

[gm10]

gm


gambling drives this bus named racing, the tracks themselves have to do stuff to attract people through the gates.

Here http://www.drf.com/news/article/111608.html is one taking a shot, however, i'm not sure if a load of drunks is attractive to people on a Family day out.

Charlie D I don't know where you are based or which race courses you have visited. But if you haven't, I strongly suggest you visit a track like Lingfield or Clairefontaine if you are ever nearby. These are only B-tracks in England and France, but you will be amazed at how different they are from American tracks. I love going there, sometimes I will bet, but never a lot. I love taking my wife there (she bets 0), I love taking friends there (they bet 0). But we will all spend money on entrance, food and drinks because we are having a good time. I've never been to those tracks when there weren't at least 600-800 people in attendance.

I went to Windsor last year, this is most definitely a B-track again. You would not believe how busy it was. They organize picknick evenings every Monday evening in summer. They are hugely popular. People just go there because they know they will have fun.

Betting may be what drives the American bus but it is running out of fuel. You either turn the public into big gamblers (unlikely given current US legislation) or you attract people to the track who will spend money without gambling. (That's what other sports and entertainment businesses do.) Otherwise, it's not going to get better. My opinion, anyway - I wish I was wrong, I love American racing.

[Charlie D]

gm

I think racing has to make itself appealing to the gamblers out there and the people that just like going to see a good show.


See nearco's post #60 here http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68002&page=4&pp=15 )


Looks like a minature Cheltenham Festival

[gm10]

gm

I think racing has to make itself appealing to the gamblers out there and the people that just like going to see a good show.


See nearco's post #60 here http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68002&page=4&pp=15 )


Looks like a minature Cheltenham Festival

That's great. And proof that you can still make people go to the races just for the sake of going to the races.

[Pick6]

My thoughts:

1. Keep pari-mutuel for exotics only. Win/place/show fixed odds. This will improve odds naturally, as competition between books will narrow hold.
2. Reduce takeout, obviously.
3. Do something about the small fields. Perhaps do something MTH is trying this year with racing 3 days a week.
4. With (3), have 12 race cards so each day you get a full spread of race types (2yo, sprint, distance, turf, multiple stakes, etc.).
5. Reduce time between races. With 12 races a day, this would be a necessity anyway.
6. Develop personalities that can be marketed. Shady types like Dutrow need to be weeded out. Put some skin in the game so jockeys, trainers, etc. make money on endorsements and other marketing efforts.
7. Get the govt. out of the business as much as possible. Perhaps change the govt. revenue structure to a flat rate instead of % of wagers. More gets plowed back to purses which leads to better horses and better, more competitive races.
8. Increase prestige of the big races. We all see the natural progression to the KY derby/TC, but after that focus is lost. Other than BC press coverage is close to zero. A simple schedule that everyone understands that allows for the best horses to compete against each other instead of cherry-picking and allowing trainers to dictate terms of the game. This would take some compromise between the tracks, but the industry needs to showcase its stars through competition.

[toussaud]

Basing a race track business around gamblers is futile. They are always broke. Even if you lower takeout to 10% they will always be broke.

pure.brilliance.

[Pick6]

I'd rather they spend their money on the horses than on cigarettes, booze, vegas, lottos, etc.

In the long run everybody's broke.

[Scanman]

There are casinos in almost every Australian state except WA.
Not true about WA. I've been the the Burswood Hotel/Casino in Perth a half a dozen times. FWIW, it's the nicest of the 3 casinos I've visited in Oz.

Of the "A" level tracks I've been to in Sydney (all), Brisbane (Eagle Farm) and Perth, Ascot is the finest. They seem to do things right in WA. They have a really nice "B" track in Bunbury, as well.

[Scanman]

Yes nearco, i believe they call it "Picnic racing" , but one of PA's Oz members would know a lot more than i.
The picnics are a blast; been to Yass and Crookwell (both in NSW). I had the good forture of living in WA (albeit Exmouth) for 10 months and have returned twice for holiday. In that time, I've visited 28 racecourses at all levels and enjoyed every one.

Unlike the US, racing is woven into the fabric of Australia culture. There seems to be a racecourse in any town of substantial size. I've cataloged 364 racecourses in Oz, which are broken down by "A" city, "B" provincial and "C" country; over 300 are in the "C" category and the meets held at these rather spartan venues receive significant support. It's been my experience that Aussies love racing, love having a punt and love the social interaction.

Australia well and truly does come to a halt on the first Tuesday in November. Imagine the Kentucky Derby being moved to a Tuesday and receiving a fraction of the attention; not a chance. Racing in the US will never achieve the level of popularity that it enjoys in Oz.

Hopefully, I'll have the good fortune and means to move there someday so that I can visit all of their racecourses.

[WinterTriangle]

Two friends of mine combined a visit to New Zealand and Australia with the Melbourne Cup -

to put it mildly, they were left in amazement regarding the enthusiasm,crowd, limos, dress, beauty, pageantry etc.... and the fact that on a Tuesday, the entire country shuts down.

My sister was in New Zealand on a trip, said the same thing.

Actually, she not a big racing fan, but she loved the atmosphere of racing in New Zealand and Australia. I doubt you could get her to go to aqueduct though.

[Dick Powell]

I've been lucky enough to attend the past two Melbourne Cups and am going back this year. It is everything you have heard and then some. To show you how different things are "down under," I have bee able to buy reserved seats in the Hill Stand right on the finish line by going online the day they go on sale through ticketmaster. All the seats are available, none are withheld for the favored few, on a first come, first served basis. Try seeing if you can do that over here. I know I am cherry picking my visit but from everyone I spoke to there the other tracks seem to be just as much fun. Wish I had time to visit Sydney for Rosehill and Randwick but they are not running during the spring racing carnival. It's a long trip and very expensive but if you can ever make it you won't be disappointed. I have lots of photos. Private mail me and I can forward some of them.
One thing they do that works very well is that there is basically one big day of racing each week - Saturday which will have big time racing from Victoria and New South Wales. The races have huge fields and many american pedigrees. Each Friday night I watch as much as I can and then record the rest to watch Saturday morning.

[Zman179]

Charlie D I don't know where you are based or which race courses you have visited. But if you haven't, I strongly suggest you visit a track like Lingfield or Clairefontaine if you are ever nearby. These are only B-tracks in England and France, but you will be amazed at how different they are from American tracks.
I went to Windsor last year, this is most definitely a B-track again. You would not believe how busy it was. They organize picknick evenings every Monday evening in summer. They are hugely popular. People just go there because they know they will have fun.

England has it right in two senses. One: racing is treated as not only a sport, but also a getaway for a day. It also helps to keep the riffraff out of the stands by charging high admissions (late last year, I went to Newbury, a "B" track, and paid $18 US to get in.) The price of food and drink there is very reasonable and the clientele very respectable. They gear their promotions less towards gambling and more towards having fun, and it shows.

France is almost like a 50/50 between England and America. At the Parisian tracks like Saint Cloud and Longchamp the riffraff and the respectables co-exist, though the riffraff tend to prefer the PMU (OTB). Admission is about $6 US and food/drink is also reasonably priced. However, if you leave the city, then it's all families and groups having fun at the races. I went to the races at Compiègne (one hour north of Paris by train), it was a wonderful experience and there wasn't a typical "racetracker" to be found anywhere on the grounds.

[46zilzal]

prefer the PMU (OTB). Admission is about $6 US and food/drink is also reasonably priced. However, if you leave the city, then it's all families and groups having fun at the races. I went to the races at Compiègne (one hour north of Paris by train), it was a wonderful experience and there wasn't a typical "racetracker" to be found anywhere on the grounds.
I AM going to get to Deauville and Longchamps before I die.....even Evry, St Cloud, Chantilly Maissons - Lafitte or the big trotter course near Paris would do.

[Zman179]

I AM going to get to Deauville and Longchamps before I die.....even Evry, St Cloud, Chantilly Maissons - Lafitte or the big trotter course near Paris would do.

You'd have a great time I'm sure.

Funny thing about Maisons-Laffitte: their grandstand reminds me of Aqueduct's, well...without all the rust, brown paint and cordoned off stands. And Vincennes looks like a giant beehive.

[elhelmete]

Work took me to Sydney for a week last fall, and I spent several hours in a downtown OTB ("TAB") and thoroughly enjoyed it. It was the only alternative I had as my schedule didn't allow for a jaunt out to Rosehill.

Liked that I could get fixed odds up to 30 mins to post.

The crowd was professional and courteous.

Decent bar.

Slots in the basement for those in between times. :)

[Scanman]

England has it right in two senses. One: racing is treated as not only a sport, but also a getaway for a day. It also helps to keep the riffraff out of the stands by charging high admissions (late last year, I went to Newbury, a "B" track, and paid $18 US to get in.) The price of food and drink there is very reasonable and the clientele very respectable. They gear their promotions less towards gambling and more towards having fun, and it shows.

France is almost like a 50/50 between England and America. At the Parisian tracks like Saint Cloud and Longchamp the riffraff and the respectables co-exist, though the riffraff tend to prefer the PMU (OTB). Admission is about $6 US and food/drink is also reasonably priced. However, if you leave the city, then it's all families and groups having fun at the races. I went to the races at Compiègne (one hour north of Paris by train), it was a wonderful experience and there wasn't a typical "racetracker" to be found anywhere on the grounds.Most racing in Europe and Australia is thought of as "a day out". They seem to understand the recreational/sport side of racing more than we do. Sure, they have a punt too, but you never get the feeling you are in a betting factory.

You've been fortunate to visit some nice racecourses. Though, I would list Newbury as an A-track. They run some pretty nice races there under both codes.

I too have been to Compiègne and thought it was a fantastic racing venue. Great atmosphere at this provincial track. It reminded me a lot of Saratoga, but better. I know Saratoga is the "holy grail" of racing in America, but there are at least a dozen (or more) that are nicer in Europe.

Too bad we lost our way here in the US. We just don't built tracks that are visually appealing or at least have a bit of character. Presque Isle is a great example of that, just love the view of the massive landfill beyond the backstretch, or how about Hawthorne and the refineries (I think) surrounding it; not to mention the countless other eyesores we have here.

Keep traveling Zman. Hope you have the chance to get to Oz, you'll definitely enjoy yourself.

[Scanman]

Work took me to Sydney for a week last fall, and I spent several hours in a downtown OTB ("TAB") and thoroughly enjoyed it. It was the only alternative I had as my schedule didn't allow for a jaunt out to Rosehill.

Liked that I could get fixed odds up to 30 mins to post.

The crowd was professional and courteous.

Decent bar.

Slots in the basement for those in between times. :)
You didn't miss much at Rosehill. Yeah, it's a nice facility and the racing is first-rate, but it has a Hawthorne-ish feeling with all of the refineries in the backround. Just not too picturesque.

For me, it's Randwick-first (classic racecourse), Warwick Farm-second (bit of "old school" charm) and Canterbury Park-third (more modern and the only Syndey track that runs under the lights during their summer).

As for the TAB, it's everywhere. Some are dedicated OTBs, but you can find them in most pubs, as well.

[46zilzal]

I too have been to Compiègne and thought it was a fantastic racing venue. Great atmosphere at this provincial track. It reminded me a lot of Saratoga, but better. I know Saratoga is the "holy grail" of racing in America, but there are at least a dozen (or more) that are nicer in Europe.
.
I am told that Baden Baden is like that.

I really enjoyed visiting a track in Northern Poland that was established in the 1890's in Sopot.

http://www.act4ppp.eu/pilot-projects/poland/sopot

[Scanman]

I AM going to get to Deauville and Longchamps before I die.....even Evry, St Cloud, Chantilly Maissons - Lafitte or the big trotter course near Paris would do.
Like Zman said, you'll have a great time. All are excellent racecourses, my suggested priority would be:

Chantilly
Longchamp
Auteuil (jumps)
Saint Cloud
Enghien (jumps)
Maissons-Lafitte

Deauville is up on the northern coast and gives the Paris tracks a break in the summer (though, they also have all-weather racing there in the winter, don't recommend that). Of course the summer racing is first-rate, but you would also want to visit Clairefontaine while you were there, as well.

As for Evry, they no longer race there. It has been turned into a training center.

[Zman179]

Most racing in Europe and Australia is thought of as "a day out". They seem to understand the recreational/sport side of racing more than we do. Sure, they have a punt too, but you never get the feeling you are in a betting factory.

You've been fortunate to visit some nice racecourses. Though, I would list Newbury as an A-track. They run some pretty nice races there under both codes.

I too have been to Compiègne and thought it was a fantastic racing venue. Great atmosphere at this provincial track. It reminded me a lot of Saratoga, but better. I know Saratoga is the "holy grail" of racing in America, but there are at least a dozen (or more) that are nicer in Europe.

Too bad we lost our way here in the US. We just don't built tracks that are visually appealing or at least have a bit of character. Presque Isle is a great example of that, just love the view of the massive landfill beyond the backstretch, or how about Hawthorne and the refineries (I think) surrounding it; not to mention the countless other eyesores we have here.

Keep traveling Zman. Hope you have the chance to get to Oz, you'll definitely enjoy yourself.

Newbury is one of those tracks which offers different types of fare. I guess I went when it was offering a "B"-type meet on the all-weather dirt. Still, I found it to be a really nice place, the train ride from London Waterloo was cool, and it was nice to see people casually dress up for a night at the races. But I remember going to Ascot for their top steeplechase meeting, the people were having so much fun and you could actually feel the vibes! Heck, when you walk from the train station to Sandown Park (UK), you actually cross the course! It's pretty cool pausing for a couple minutes and posing for photos leaning on the hurdles (obviously between races, otherwise get ready to duck).

Going racing in Europe and Australia are family-themed outings and people there don't look at you as simply a degenerate gambler like here in the US. But in a way, I guess it's all about location. If you go to Del Mar, you're hip. Go to Hollywood and you're a gambler. Saratoga = cool, Aqueduct = cold. Arlington draws families, Hawthorne draws the police. All same circuits, yet all so, so different. You mention Presque Isle and its landfills (why am I not shocked, after all it's in Erie), yet Pennsylvania's other new track, Harrah's Chester, is right in the middle of a horrible neighborhood with track views overlooking the port facility cranes. You need good luck for the slots or ponies? Noooo, you need good luck in hoping your car doesn't break down on the way home.

I would definitely love the chance to go to Australia and take in the races there. Now, if only I can find the guts to do that 20 hour flight. :eek:

[Scanman]

I am told that Baden Baden is like that.

I really enjoyed visiting a track in Northern Poland that was established in the 1890's in Sopot.

http://www.act4ppp.eu/pilot-projects/poland/sopot
Yeah, Baden Baden should be on anyone's "short list" and is one of those "dozen or so".

You are too lucky to be able to visit Sopot. Last year, they only got one race day. Most of the racing in Poland is in Wroclaw and Warsaw. It's on the list to visit and I enjoyed having a look at the link. Thanks.

[gm10]

I AM going to get to Deauville and Longchamps before I die.....even Evry, St Cloud, Chantilly Maissons - Lafitte or the big trotter course near Paris would do.

Deauville is amazing. Its sister track, Clairefontaine (just one mile up the road) is the most picturesque racing facility on earth. You can combine it with a day to Omaha Beach - it will be a memorable day, I promise.

[Zman179]

Like Zman said, you'll have a great time. All are excellent racecourses, my suggested priority would be:

Chantilly
Longchamp
Auteuil (jumps)
Saint Cloud
Enghien (jumps)
Maissons-Lafitte



Auteuil is great. Last time I went to Paris in October, I went to Auteuil for the day's chase races, sat in the stands and just stared at the stunning views of the Eiffel Tower and the ornate buildings on the fringe of the Bois de Boulogne. I love it, my wife not as much...her good shoes always attract mud while walking on the infield from the métro station. :lol: BTW, Enghien offers flats, jumps and trots. That place runs all year long.

[gm10]

Yeah, Baden Baden should be on anyone's "short list" and is one of those "dozen or so".

You are too lucky to be able to visit Sopot. Last year, they only got one race day. Most of the racing in Poland is in Wroclaw and Warsaw. It's on the list to visit and I enjoyed having a look at the link. Thanks.

Ah yes Baden is on my list for this year or next year. Have to look up that Polish track.

[Scanman]

Newbury is one of those tracks which offers different types of fare. I guess I went when it was offering a "B"-type meet on the all-weather dirt. Still, I found it to be a really nice place, the train ride from London Waterloo was cool, and it was nice to see people casually dress up for a night at the races. But I remember going to Ascot for their top steeplechase meeting, the people were having so much fun and you could actually feel the vibes! Heck, when you walk from the train station to Sandown Park (UK), you actually cross the course! It's pretty cool pausing for a couple minutes and posing for photos leaning on the hurdles (obviously between races, otherwise get ready to duck).

Going racing in Europe and Australia are family-themed outings and people there don't look at you as simply a degenerate gambler like here in the US. But in a way, I guess it's all about location. If you go to Del Mar, you're hip. Go to Hollywood and you're a gambler. Saratoga = cool, Aqueduct = cold. Arlington draws families, Hawthorne draws the police. All same circuits, yet all so, so different. You mention Presque Isle and its landfills (why am I not shocked, after all it's in Erie), yet Pennsylvania's other new track, Harrah's Chester, is right in the middle of a horrible neighborhood with track views overlooking the port facility cranes. You need good luck for the slots or ponies? Noooo, you need good luck in hoping your car doesn't break down on the way home.

I would definitely love the chance to go to Australia and take in the races there. Now, if only I can find the guts to do that 20 hour flight. :eek:
Great post!!! Yeah, maybe you caught Newbury on an off day. They have 12 group races scheduled this summer and fall, and of course, there's the Henessey Gold Cup during the jumps season, which I got to see many years ago. Haven't been to Ascot since the renovation and is another course for the "short list". Your experience there is typical. I've done the train from London to Sandown. I was there during the flat season for a US/UK jockey challenge back in '83. FWIW, if you contact the course (and get there early enough) many of tracks will let you "walk the course". There was a time when you could do that before the Grand National at Aintree. I got to stand in the open ditch known as "The Chair". I disappeared, what a formidable obstacle. All those things really add to the enjoyment of racing.

You're analysis of US racing is spot on. Couldn't put it any better.

Yeah, the flight to Sydney is a beast (was just there in Jan/Feb, visited a few courses in NSW and QLD), I'm on the east coast, as well. Just make sure you go for at least 3-4 weeks. Tough to do if you're still working and vacation time is an issue. But if you can do it, it'll be worth it. I won't get the chance to go back for a while (I try to go every 5 years), but the next trip will be an assualt on Victorian racecourses. You could actually do two weeks straight and catch a different track each day. Things to look forward to...........

[Scanman]

Deauville is amazing. Its sister track, Clairefontaine (just one mile up the road) is the most picturesque racing facility on earth. You can combine it with a day to Omaha Beach - it will be a memorable day, I promise.
Great suggestion!!! You give me something to look forward to when I visit Clairefontaine someday.

I'm a retired Navy veteran and my last duty station was SHAPE, Belgium. I made a point of taking a day (and that was rushing through it) to visit all of the assualt beaches, Pont du Hoc, and the American Cemetary overlooking Omaha. Yes, that was a day I'll never forget.

[Scanman]

Auteuil is great. Last time I went to Paris in October, I went to Auteuil for the day's chase races, sat in the stands and just stared at the stunning views of the Eiffel Tower and the ornate buildings on the fringe of the Bois de Boulogne. I love it, my wife not as much...her good shoes always attract mud while walking on the infield from the métro station. :lol: BTW, Enghien offers flats, jumps and trots. That place runs all year long.You describe it well and I can remember it like it was yesterday. Super atmosphere/views and you get a look of the course close up.

Though, you had better luck getting your wife to join you. I guess living there (Belgium) and Paris just being a short train ride (2 hours, just enough time to go through Paris Turf), my missus figured it was good to get rid of me for the day. But I give her credit, she does go racing with me a fair amount of the time.

Haven't been to Enghien in years, but that's when my love affair with French racing started. Back then, it was just jumps and trots.

[gm10]

Great suggestion!!! You give me something to look forward to when I visit Clairefontaine someday.

I'm a retired Navy veteran and my last duty station was SHAPE, Belgium. I made a point of taking a day (and that was rushing through it) to visit all of the assualt beaches, Pont du Hoc, and the American Cemetary overlooking Omaha. Yes, that was a day I'll never forget.

Did you ever go racing in Belgium? They used to have some decent tracks: Groenendaal, Ostend, a few Wallonian tracks as well.

[Scanman]

Did you ever go racing in Belgium? They used to have some decent tracks: Groenendaal, Ostend, a few Wallonian tracks as well.
I've been to them all. When I first moved there I wrote a letter to the Belgian Jockey Club and they gave me this "carte blanche" type of card/pass that allowed me free admission anytime I went to any of their tracks.

At that time it was Groenedaal, Ostend, Sterrebeek and Waregem. The nicer of the 4 were Ostend, then Groenedaal. Ostend had the better racing in late summer and was a ferry ride from England, so they were able to stage some decent races. Groenedaal was the closest drive for me and was a nice track. Probably in it's heyday, it was the place to be. Sterrebeek was kind of "in the hood" and only went there once. Waregem only gets one day of thoroughbred racing (over the jumps) that supports their big race the "Grand Steeplechase de Flanders".

I left Belgium the summer of '99. The following December they opened a track in Ghlin that would have been a 10 minute walk from where I used to live. Initially, they built a trot track, but then built a thoroughbred/flat track around it. In a visit back, I went to check it out. It's a modest venue that is appropriate for the quality of Belgian racing. It has a synthetic surface (polytrack, I think). Most racedays are mixed cards (trot & flat) with just one day dedicated for thoroughbreds in November. When they have an excess amount of entries in a race they don't use a starting gate. Check out this race: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3FU0bn7wws&feature=player_embedded . Here's a link to the track: http://www.hippodromedewallonie.be/ . You can click on videos, scroll down to 21/6/2009 Grand Prix del la Wallonie and it will show a replay where they do use the gate.

Today, Groenedaal, Ostend and Sterrebeek are all closed. All racing is at Ghlin, apart from the one day at Waregem. Of course, Belgium does have one "claim to fame" and that is world-class rider Christophe Soumillion.

[Cardus]

Did you ever go racing in Belgium? They used to have some decent tracks: Groenendaal, Ostend, a few Wallonian tracks as well.

Though you might have figured it out already, you could remove "Belgium" and fill-in-the-blank with almost any country, and Scanman has been there.

He is quite remarkable and a terrific guy.

[Cardus]

Among many things to say about Aussie racing -- I love it! -- is that it is easier for a casual player to follow many, many horses over there (despite the distance) because they race much more frequently.

Top and mid-level horses have lengthier "preparations" that might have them race numerously (five-to-10 races) in a few months' span.

And the boxcar payoffs are a plus, too.

[gm10]

I've been to them all. When I first moved there I wrote a letter to the Belgian Jockey Club and they gave me this "carte blanche" type of card/pass that allowed me free admission anytime I went to any of their tracks.

At that time it was Groenedaal, Ostend, Sterrebeek and Waregem. The nicer of the 4 were Ostend, then Groenedaal. Ostend had the better racing in late summer and was a ferry ride from England, so they were able to stage some decent races. Groenedaal was the closest drive for me and was a nice track. Probably in it's heyday, it was the place to be. Sterrebeek was kind of "in the hood" and only went there once. Waregem only gets one day of thoroughbred racing (over the jumps) that supports their big race the "Grand Steeplechase de Flanders".

Also known as 'Waregem Koerse'! I went to school in Waregem for 6 years!!


I left Belgium the summer of '99. The following December they opened a track in Ghlin that would have been a 10 minute walk from where I used to live. Initially, they built a trot track, but then built a thoroughbred/flat track around it. In a visit back, I went to check it out. It's a modest venue that is appropriate for the quality of Belgian racing. It has a synthetic surface (polytrack, I think). Most racedays are mixed cards (trot & flat) with just one day dedicated for thoroughbreds in November. When they have an excess amount of entries in a race they don't use a starting gate. Check out this race: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3FU0bn7wws&feature=player_embedded . Here's a link to the track: http://www.hippodromedewallonie.be/ . You can click on videos, scroll down to 21/6/2009 Grand Prix del la Wallonie and it will show a replay where they do use the gate.

Today, Groenedaal, Ostend and Sterrebeek are all closed. All racing is at Ghlin, apart from the one day at Waregem. Of course, Belgium does have one "claim to fame" and that is world-class rider Christophe Soumillion.

Ostend still has a few days during the summer but it can only be a matter of time before the lights are turned off forever. Although there is some renewed interest in preserving its heritage these days.

It's a shame what happened in Belgium, racing was in its heyday in the 80's but things really got out of hand wrt cheating (jockeys, owners, trainers, bookies: everyone was in on it). It was a major turn-off for the public and they just stopped going. Three decades later the situation is indeed as dire as you describe it.

I watched the youtube video. I don't think you'd get a pace scenario like that in the US!!!

[Scanman]

Though you might have figured it out already, you could remove "Belgium" and fill-in-the-blank with almost any country, and Scanman has been there.

He is quite remarkable and a terrific guy.You are too kind. Thanks. I love racing and sharing my experiences. The best part is looking forward to the next racecourse (Stoneybrook Steeplechase on April 3rd, BTW).
Among many things to say about Aussie racing -- I love it! -- is that it is easier for a casual player to follow many, many horses over there (despite the distance) because they race much more frequently.
Next time I go to Oz, I'm dragging you with me.

[Scanman]

Also known as 'Waregem Koerse'! I went to school in Waregem for 6 years!!

Ostend still has a few days during the summer but it can only be a matter of time before the lights are turned off forever. Although there is some renewed interest in preserving its heritage these days.

It's a shame what happened in Belgium, racing was in its heyday in the 80's but things really got out of hand wrt cheating (jockeys, owners, trainers, bookies: everyone was in on it). It was a major turn-off for the public and they just stopped going. Three decades later the situation is indeed as dire as you describe it.

I watched the youtube video. I don't think you'd get a pace scenario like that in the US!!!Cool to meet someone else who lived in Belgium. Great country, we hated to leave. We really enjoyed and embraced their culture. So you've been to the race? It was very well supported the year I went, and actually walked away with a few francs (back then).

Ostend should be Belgium's premier track. Great racecourse layout and location. It has so much potential and with the right resources and development, it could rival the best seaside racecourses.

Wasn't aware of the scandal. Goes to show that once the fans lose confidence, it's hard to get it back.

Do you ever get back for a visit? Also, did you ever make it up Duinguit (the Hague) in the Netherlands?

[gm10]

Cool to meet someone else who lived in Belgium. Great country, we hated to leave. We really enjoyed and embraced their culture. So you've been to the race? It was very well supported the year I went, and actually walked away with a few francs (back then).

Ostend should be Belgium's premier track. Great racecourse layout and location. It has so much potential and with the right resources and development, it could rival the best seaside racecourses.

Wasn't aware of the scandal. Goes to show that once the fans lose confidence, it's hard to get it back.

Do you ever get back for a visit? Also, did you ever make it up Duinguit (the Hague) in the Netherlands?

Yes, I still have family there. I'm going there for Easter actually. It's very close to Kuurne, which has a small hippodrome as well.

Agree with you on the (previous) potential of Ostend. Just a few seconds from the beach. I think they have built a golf course inside the track now.

Never been to The Hague - would you recommend it?

[Scanman]

Yes, I still have family there. I'm going there for Easter actually. It's very close to Kuurne, which has a small hippodrome as well.

Agree with you on the (previous) potential of Ostend. Just a few seconds from the beach. I think they have built a golf course inside the track now.

Never been to The Hague - would you recommend it?
That's good. We haven't been back since Spring '06. We're due.

Duindigt is worth a visit. It's the only track in the Netherlands that runs thoroughbreds. I was there in Jul '97 and thought it was a nice racecourse. The grandstand was accomodating and grounds were kept very clean. Here's a link to their racing schedule: http://www.renbaanduindigt.nl/2010.pdf . Looks like they'll be running Easter Sunday. They have a lot of harness specific days. I attended a day when the majority of the races were thoroughbred.

Hope you have a good visit.

[elhelmete]

:jump: :jump: :jump:

Just got the "OK" from the warden to extend my work trip to Sydney AUS next March to include a week of R&R. Most of my work group will be staying for a while as well...beaches, outback. Took me about 0.001 seconds to figure out what I'll be doing, and I doubt I'll see the beach!!! Cannot wait.

[Stillriledup]

I don't know much about racing in other countries, but in America, i think the problem is that most people are trained to be braineless monkeys, pulling slots levers, betting lottery tickets, etc. Those are games a monkey can be trained to do and yet those games are being forced on our young kids. Even an NFL bet is brainless, you don't really need to know anything special to bet on team A or team B.

Racing is a thinking man and woman's sport, you actually need to use your brain in order to survive in this game! (i know, imagine that)

We are in the youtube generation, people don't really want to work at something if they don't have to and racing is hard work if you want to actually have a shot to cash a ticket or two. People choose the brainless activity over the one who requires you to think.