U.S. Healthcare Never Looked So Good

[NJ Stinks]

Ezra Klein of the Washington Post discusses the proposed healthcare bill in the article below. Some interesting info on coverage and cost here:
___________________________________________

Democrats get the bill, and the score, they needed

The question people generally ask about the final health-care reform vote is, "Won't it be politically difficult for many House Democrats to vote yes?" But with the release of the CBO report (http://cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=11355&type=1) (pdf), I'd flip that question a bit: Won't it be substantively difficult for many House Democrats to vote no?

If you're a liberal House Democrat, here's what you'd be voting against: Legislation that covers 32 million people. A world in which 95 percent of all non-elderly, legal residents have health-care coverage. An end to insurers rescinding coverage for the sick, or discriminating based on preexisting conditions, or spending 30 cents of each premium dollar on things that aren't medical care. Exchanges where insurers who want to jack up premiums will have to publicly explain their reason, where regulators will be able to toss them out based on bad behavior, and where consumers will be able to publicly rate them. Hundreds of billions of dollars in subsidies to help lower-income Americans afford health-care insurance. The final closure of the Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit's "doughnut hole."

If you're a conservative House Democrat, then probably you support many of those policies, too. But you also get the single most ambitious effort the government has ever made to control costs in the health-care sector. According to the Congressional Budget Office, the bill cuts deficits by $130 billion in the first 10 years, and up to $1.2 trillion in the second 10 years. The excise tax is now indexed to inflation, rather than inflation plus one percentage point, and the subsidies grow more slowly over time. So one of the strongest cost controls just got stronger, and the automatic spending growth slowed. And then there are all the other cost controls in the bill: The Medicare Commission, which makes entitlement reform much more possible. The programs to begin paying doctors and hospitals for care rather than volume. The competitive insurance market.


More at the link below:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/democrats_get_the_bill_and_the.html?hpid=topnews

[delayjf]

One question - how often does the CBO get their projections right??

[NJ Stinks]

One question - how often does the CBO get their projections right??

The CBO nailed the Bush tax cuts pretty good. The deficits ballooned as they predicted.

[johnhannibalsmith]

"And since the cost controls are complicated, while the coverage increase is straightforward, many people don't believe that the Democrats have done it. But to a degree unmatched in recent legislative history, they have."

I was really looking forward to Klein's in-depth explanation of this statement, but instead, I was met with the summary paragraphs that closed the article.

I guess in Jersey parlance, "ya gotta believe."

[Tom]

How can anyone in their right mind believe those numbers when the final bill is being looked at?

NJ, when yo buy a car, do you read the contract, of do you just hand over a blank check to the salesman?

[NJ Stinks]

I guess in Jersey parlance, "ya gotta believe."

Looks like a tough night here for one of the 13 original colonies. :)

[delayjf]

The CBO nailed the Bush tax cuts pretty good. The deficits ballooned as they predicted.

Did they correctly predict the record tax revenues?? Tax cuts did not lead to a deficit, increases in spending did. See what happens when you increase funding for entitlements.

[NJ Stinks]

Did they correctly predict the record tax revenues?? Tax cuts did not lead to a deficit, increases in spending did. See what happens when you increase funding for entitlements.

So are you saying the War in Iraq was an entitlement?

[newtothegame]

So are you saying the War in Iraq was an entitlement?

Or how about the war in Afghanistan that Obama deemed the "right" war???

NJ...you keep trying to go back to repugs...when are you libs gonna let it go...
And as for the war in Iraq...didnt Obama make a committment to bring that war to an end...??? When was that????

[ArlJim78]

the whole thing is a scam. the CBO only scores what they are told to score. the gimmick is in how they control the assumptions given to the CBO and double counting. this program as designed is massively expensive. there is really no hope for you if you actually believe that by adding trillions in new spending that it will magically reduce the deficit.
in my opinion these people should be tried for treason or for perpetrating a fraud on the nation.

[NJ Stinks]

the whole thing is a scam. the CBO only scores what they are told to score. the gimmick is in how they control the assumptions given to the CBO and double counting. this program as designed is massively expensive. there is really no hope for you if you actually believe that by adding trillions in new spending that it will magically reduce the deficit.
in my opinion these people should be tried for treason or for perpetrating a fraud on the nation.

I guess you also believe controlling medical costs is not going to save programs like Medicare a ton of money. Year after year.

[newtothegame]

I guess you also believe controlling medical costs is not going to save programs like Medicare a ton of money. Year after year.

NJ...its not a question of IF controlling medical cost will save money. If you control ANY cost, you will be saving money. The probem with most of us is a lack of confidence (BASED ON TIME AND TIME AGAIN EFFORTS) of the government to run ANY program. Its funny you mentioned medicare....IT wreaks of fraud throughout.
USPS...financial disaster in their own words....
AMTRAK...well...we all know how thats working....
So why should we believe that the government now can control anything it does???
It never has in the past....so what would lead you to believe it will in the future?? Is it the "hope and Change mantra " that libs sing themselves to sleep with???
:bang:

[NJ Stinks]

NJ...its not a question of IF controlling medical cost will save money. If you control ANY cost, you will be saving money. The probem with most of us is a lack of confidence (BASED ON TIME AND TIME AGAIN EFFORTS) of the government to run ANY program. Its funny you mentioned medicare....IT wreaks of fraud throughout.
USPS...financial disaster in their own words....
AMTRAK...well...we all know how thats working....
So why should we believe that the government now can control anything it does???
It never has in the past....so what would lead you to believe it will in the future?? Is it the "hope and Change mantra " that libs sing themselves to sleep with???
:bang:

I have some bad news for you, Newtothegame. I don't expect USPS or AMTRAK to make money. In fact, I don't think any country anywhere expects public mail delivery or public transportation to do anything but cost money.

As for Medicare fraud, I hope they clamp down on the fraud hard. That may require more government employees but I'm willing to bet that the extra expense will be worth it.

[mostpost]

NJ...its not a question of IF controlling medical cost will save money. If you control ANY cost, you will be saving money. The probem with most of us is a lack of confidence (BASED ON TIME AND TIME AGAIN EFFORTS) of the government to run ANY program. Its funny you mentioned medicare....IT wreaks of fraud throughout.
USPS...financial disaster in their own words....
AMTRAK...well...we all know how thats working....
So why should we believe that the government now can control anything it does???
It never has in the past....so what would lead you to believe it will in the future?? Is it the "hope and Change mantra " that libs sing themselves to sleep with???
:bang:
Medicare is a victim of fraud, not a perpetrator.
USPS: Some of its problems are of its own making. Many major ones are not.
For example USPS is required to have its pension fund fully funded fifty years int the future. That is a huge part of its deficit. USPS is required to deliver mail six days a week to every address in the country.
And of course there is the changing communication matrix in the country. People communicate by e-mail now; the pay bills electronically; they order goods over the internet; you can even download whole books from Amazon.
These are things that USPS has little or no control over.

Amtrak: You cannot be saying that the railroads would run passenger service more efficiently than Amtrak. If that is true, why aren't they doing it?
Back in the sixties I frequently took the Illinois Central from Carbondale (SIU) to Chicago and back. The trains were just as late as Amtrak, the cars were much dirtier (every Amtrak car I have been on has been very well maintained), the service was much ruder ( I have encountered very, very few Amtrak attendents and waitpersons who were not courteous)

In order to be successful Amtrak needs its own trackage. Amtrak shares track with freight lines. The freight lines own the track and their stock has the right of way. Amtrak has no power over which track is repaired.

Amtrak needs high speed rail.

Amtrak needs to adjust its routes. I have ridden the California Zephyr several times. From Chicago the Zephyr heads west through the Chicago Suburbs then south west with stops in towns like galesburg and princeton il and across southern Iowa with stops at Burlington, Mount Pleasant, Osceola Ottumwa and Cresent city, then on to Omaha Ne. Burlington, Ia might have a population of 60,000
The other towns are lucky if they have 10,000. Seldom have I seen more than four or five people board the train at any of these stations.
The Zephyr takes this route because Congress has mandated that Amtrak serve small town America.
A more logical and profitable route would have the Zephyr head west from Chicago through Rockford, il. (pop 100,000+) the Quad cities (four Mississippi river cities with a combined population over 250,00) Des Moines, Ia (500,000 plus) and on to Omaha.
A more logica

[newtothegame]

Medicare is a victim of fraud, not a perpetrator.
USPS: Some of its problems are of its own making. Many major ones are not.
For example USPS is required to have its pension fund fully funded fifty years int the future. That is a huge part of its deficit. USPS is required to deliver mail six days a week to every address in the country.
And of course there is the changing communication matrix in the country. People communicate by e-mail now; the pay bills electronically; they order goods over the internet; you can even download whole books from Amazon.
These are things that USPS has little or no control over.

Amtrak: You cannot be saying that the railroads would run passenger service more efficiently than Amtrak. If that is true, why aren't they doing it?
Back in the sixties I frequently took the Illinois Central from Carbondale (SIU) to Chicago and back. The trains were just as late as Amtrak, the cars were much dirtier (every Amtrak car I have been on has been very well maintained), the service was much ruder ( I have encountered very, very few Amtrak attendents and waitpersons who were not courteous)

In order to be successful Amtrak needs its own trackage. Amtrak shares track with freight lines. The freight lines own the track and their stock has the right of way. Amtrak has no power over which track is repaired.

Amtrak needs high speed rail.

Amtrak needs to adjust its routes. I have ridden the California Zephyr several times. From Chicago the Zephyr heads west through the Chicago Suburbs then south west with stops in towns like galesburg and princeton il and across southern Iowa with stops at Burlington, Mount Pleasant, Osceola Ottumwa and Cresent city, then on to Omaha Ne. Burlington, Ia might have a population of 60,000
The other towns are lucky if they have 10,000. Seldom have I seen more than four or five people board the train at any of these stations.
The Zephyr takes this route because Congress has mandated that Amtrak serve small town America.
A more logical and profitable route would have the Zephyr head west from Chicago through Rockford, il. (pop 100,000+) the Quad cities (four Mississippi river cities with a combined population over 250,00) Des Moines, Ia (500,000 plus) and on to Omaha.
A more logica

Never said medicare wasnt a victim of fraud. Nor did i said that it was ALL self inflicted. But what you are failing to see is that the government has run nothing right...unless you say "right into the ground". That, they have done well.
As for the USPS, well mosty, I would assume your the one with knowledge here and i will take you at your word. But being in the private sector, the one thing I will tell you is that when you are forced to show profits, you change with the times and you adjust as needed. If you fail to stay competitive, you fail period. There is no "government" to prop you up and absorb those losses.
true there has been the "internet" and email to explain why the problems have happened. But it does not justify not being able to remain profitable. You change with the market. Or again, you fail!
This is a major reason why people are so against government run programs that have a niche in the private sector. USPS.....it doesnt matter if they are profitable or not. Lets see...is fed ex or ups profitable??? How are they doing it??? Of course they are!!!

The railroads, could easily run passenger and be profitable. But not against AMTRAK. See my above paragraph. No private sector company can have a competitor like the GOVERNMENT and stay competitive. Borrowing rates etc etc are reasons why.
As for trackage, your right in the fact that the RR's own the rights. They also own the maintenance. They also own the labor for that upkeep. So thats a pretty weak arguement from that point.
As for the RR's owning rights therefore holding up amtrak because their freight has "rights"...you have no clue what you talk about there. I worked for UP for a few years. We was FORCED by our own company...(and its like that for others such as BNSF, NS, UP, CSX etc etc) to get out of the way for amtrak. There are steep fines for holding up an AMTRAK. Amtrak, ALWAYS had right of way and dispatchers would "put ya in the hole" for hours waiting for AMTRAK to pass. This I know to be fact !

You next say that AMTRAK has no power to repair tracks....well not within their company...duhh... I have already said the RR's own the maintenance etc etc. But the government does control the penalties etc etc so in essence, amtrak does control the lines. As for its routes, well even you said they need to change. They chose not too. Again, a show of mismanagement.

Highspeed rail??? Well there are many "studies" out there about the cost and maintenance....you decide if you want to waste more or not on a losing business such as amtrak. Personally, I would say "show me a profitable company who can manage their business and then you can use those profits to buy high speed rail"!

[newtothegame]

I have some bad news for you, Newtothegame. I don't expect USPS or AMTRAK to make money. In fact, I don't think any country anywhere expects public mail delivery or public transportation to do anything but cost money.

As for Medicare fraud, I hope they clamp down on the fraud hard. That may require more government employees but I'm willing to bet that the extra expense will be worth it.

Well there ya go....in your OWN words you don't "EXPECT" them to make money. So if your expectations are for losses, then I have to assume your expectations are that either they fail, or we prop them up with more tax dollars. It goes right back to what I said previously.....maybe we should expect more.
But your next response is most enlightening.....
"That may require more government employees but I'm willing to bet that the extra expense will be worth it"
So your answer is more government spending...or should I say more taxes collected to pay for those bad spending habits. Its either that or ya need to call the CBO and re-adjust those figures already for future budgets ....:lol:

[newtothegame]

Dems get the "score they need"....

That was in referrence to the CBO numbers right NJ? Here are some more CBO numbers (since you like using their numbers :lol: )....

CBO: Health Bill Would Force Families to Buy Insurance Costing a Minimum of $12,000 Per Year--Whether Government or Employer Helps Them or Not
Thursday, March 18, 2010
letter ("][/url]By Pete Winn, Senior Writer/Editor

(CNSNews.com) – If Congress passes the Senate health-care plan, according to an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office, American families will be required by federal law to buy a federally approved health insurance plan that will cost a minimum of $12,000 per year--and, on average, will cost $15,000 per year -- whether their employer or the government helps them with the premium or not.

Beginning in 2014, the Senate plan would require all individuals to buy health insurance. Anyone who does not obtain insurance through an employer would be forced to buy it out of their own pocket. Families of four that make up to 400 percent of poverty level--currently $88,200 per year--would receive a subsidy from the government to help pay for their premiums. That subsidy would attenuate as their income increased and would disappear when their income reached the 400 percent of poverty level.

Families earning more than $88,200 a year (or whatever 400 percent of the poverty level equals in any given year) would be entirely on their own. Under the Senate bill, employers would not be required to purchase health insurance for their workers, and if they decided not to do so, the maximum penalty they would have to pay would be $750 per year for each worker they did not insure who subsequently received a federal subsidy to buy insurance. The $750 penalty on employers who decided not to insure their workers would be far less than they would pay in premiums for the $12,000 minimum required plan.

According to the CBO analysis, the insurance plans the Senate bill would require families to purchase would cost an average of $15,200 per year in 2016.

“Average premiums among all types of plans in 2016 would be about $5,800 for single policies and about $15,200 for family policies,” CBO Director Douglas W. Elmendorf wrote in a [url="http://www.mrc.org/BiasAlert/uploads/01-11-Premiums_for_Bronze_Plan.pdf) to Sen. Olympa Snowe (R-Maine).

But even the bare-bones, minimum coverage required by the individual mandate in the bill--known as the “Bronze” level insurance plans--would cost families an estimated $12,000 to $12,500 a year, Elmendorf told Snowe.

“Overall, CBO estimates that premiums for Bronze plans purchased individually in 2016 would probably average between $4,500 and $5,000 for single policies and between $12,000 and $12,500 for family policies,” he wrote.

At “bronze” level, an insurance plan covers only 60 percent of medical services. “Silver” level plans cover 70 percent, and “Gold” level plans cover 85 percent or more.

Elmendorf reiterated the average cost to anyone not covered under an employer policy in a letter (http://www.mrc.org/Static/uploads/11-30-Premiums.pdf) to Sen. Evan Bayh (D-Ind.): “Average premiums per policy in the nongroup market in 2016 would be roughly $5,800 for single policies and $15,200 for family policies under the proposal, compared with roughly $5,500 for single policies and $13,100 for family policies under current law.

Premiums for specific individuals would differ somewhat on the basis of their age, average spending on health care in their area of the country, and the specific plan they chose, Elmendorf added.

Experts predict that more and more families will be forced off of employer insurance and have to buy their own coverage because employers will be faced with the choice of paying premiums of several thousands dollars per employee for group insurance or paying a fine of just $750 per employee for not providing coverage.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/63012

Ok...now I bolded a few topics I would like to discuss......Libs keep saying that it is not MANDATED. That no one would be FORCED. Hmmm I didnt make those words up in the above CBO report.
Next, what would keep PRIVATE sectro businesses from just dropping employees from healthcare plans?? Above, it states that employers are NOT required to carry insurance for their employees. And based on those figures, (a company is already in business to make profits,), well instead of increasing coverage for the american people, I fear the american people will become LESS covered. Ohhh but wait...thats where uncle sam steps in right...and forces the INDIVIDUAL and his or her family who has just been dropped to buy coverage? :bang: Please tell me where I am reading this wrong. And, wait...I got it...those that make less then 88,200 or 400% above the poverty level will be subsidized by great ole uncle sam ( or in other words those who make more then said amount). So not only will someone like myself who ALREADY pays almost 7000 a year in insurance premiums be FORCED to buy more coverage (either through my employer dropping me or by my employer passing the cost onto me), then I will be taxed to pay for the subsidies of the "less fortunate"?? If I am reading this story wrong...someone tell me.....
ummm NJ your right...The Dems got the numbers they needed.
At some point, you have to ask yourself if its worth it. Like some have previously mentioned....why not just go get myself a lower paying job and let someone else pay for me :). I would come out ahead in the long run!!!!!! :bang: :bang:

[bigmack]

Amtrak needs high speed rail.
Much of your material is garden variety blasé. That line has catapulted you into a whole new status.

The 'gone completely crackers gauge' has been called on. Don't expect a measurement less than complete.

[Tom]

You must be thinking of the Post Office.
What Amtak needs is to be sold to a private company that knows how to run a business. Same for the Post Office.

Originally Posted by mostpost Amtrak needs high speed rail.

[delayjf]

So are you saying the War in Iraq was an entitlement?

No, I'm saying entitlements are the reason for the deficit not the war.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I can't find this bill on-line. I spent ten minutes on whitehouse.gov and could find "featured legislation", of which this bill apparently isn't, and a herd of talking points under various links to health care issues.

Can anyone direct to me to the actual text of the bill?

[Leonard]

I can't find this bill on-line. I spent ten minutes on whitehouse.gov and could find "featured legislation", of which this bill apparently isn't, and a herd of talking points under various links to health care issues.

Can anyone direct to me to the actual text of the bill?

I had tough time finding it as well. If I am not mistaken they have posted the bill online as an amendment to the first time homebuyers credit.

http://docs.house.gov/rules/hr4872/111_hr3590_engrossed.pdf

[46zilzal]

We have built in measures to combat medical billing fraud and when the auditors come down on those tweaking the billing, they come down hard.

Hope this new system has the same built in measures.

[Leonard]

And then there is this one:
http://docs.house.gov/rules/hr4872/111_hr4872_reported.pdf

[johnhannibalsmith]

Thank you Leonard... I'll give those a whirl...

[GaryG]

We have built in measures to combat medical billing fraud and when the auditors come down on those tweaking the billing, they come down hard.

Hope this new system has the same built in measures.IMO the typical Canadian govt employee is more capable and conscientious that the American counterpart. Maybe it is the way we go about filling the jobs. There is not a more incompetent group than US civil servanta.

[delayjf]

We have built in measures to combat medical billing fraud and when the auditors come down on those tweaking the billing, they come down hard.

Hope this new system has the same built in measures.

I would like to see stiffer prison sentences as well as manditory property liens that the courts rule as fruits of the poisonous tree, as a lot of these fraud cases amount to organized crime and the amounts can run into the millions.

[Tom]

The CBO has put a price tag on a non-existent bill that has not real data in it - if you read the bill, like FOX had a speed reader do yesterday on Neil Cavuto, all the percentages used had no back up data associated with them.
Much like the GW fraud.

But as a test, I asked the CBO how much a typical candy bar costs and I got this reply:

http://www.entertonement.com/clips/pthhzzfqmr--Candy-BarTom-Cruise-Rain-Man-Charlie-Babbit-Dustin-Hoffman-