Gov Paterson comments on possible shut down of Saratoga Race Course

[Stevie Belmont]

I highly doubt this happens...

http://bit.ly/9Y8s97

[andtheyreoff]

I actually agree with Paterson on something! :faint:

The Saratoga thing is more shock tatics. The NYRA people want the slots and will resort to anything to try to get them.

I believe there was a thread last year about the Kentucky Derby being shut down because Kentucky couldn't get slots. We all know how that's turned out so far.

[Robert Goren]

If it can't survive without VLTs, It should fold. There are a few(very few) industries that the government should help out from time to time, but one which runs on gambling isn't one of them. JMO

[Stillriledup]

They don't have slots? I know Yonkers raceway has slots, that's in NY last i checked.

[onefast99]

Saratoga Gaming and raceway has slots. Right down the street from Saratoga.

[Stillriledup]

Saratoga Gaming and raceway has slots. Right down the street from Saratoga.

So harness tracks have slots and the thoroughbreds do not?

[Space Monkey]

I got to laugh about all this talk about slots. Anybody with half a gambling brain knows they are the ultimate sucker bet. I know they are profitable, but only because the public is lazy and stupid.

[PaceAdvantage]

I seem to recall that in the agreement NYRA came to with the state, where NYRA gave the state control of the land in exchange for a franchise extension + cash, it was stipulated that if the VLTs weren't in the process of being built, or weren't built by a certain time, the state would have to pay NYRA $$$$.

That time has come and gone already I believe, and the state hasn't lived up to its side of the bargain, has it?

I ask these questions because I haven't been keeping up with the situation and would like to know the answers myself.

[Tom]

NYRA lived up to it's bargain - NYS reneged. Now they are trying to twist the facts and use the words bail out. The fact of the matter, is NYRA is better managed and if far better shape than NYS is. The morons in Albany are plainly liars. We would be better letting NYRA run the state than the mental midget doing it now.

[Rutgers]

The dumb thing about it is Delaware North was picked but couldn't come up with the upfront money of $370 million due to the credit crunch. If the state wasn't so greedy about the upfront money and agree to delayed payment the VLTs would be up and running already.

[Dave Schwartz]

I got to laugh about all this talk about slots. Anybody with half a gambling brain knows they are the ultimate sucker bet. I know they are profitable, but only because the public is lazy and stupid

SpaceMon,

Let's see if I've got this right... the takeout in slots ranges from maybe 3% to 8%. We play a game which routinely faces at least double that in takeout as the minimum and they are stupid?

I really get the lazy part... although I have known some video poker players who work darned hard at their game.


Dave

[Stevie Belmont]

Rallying to save Saratoga Racing

http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/saratoga-1272051-racing-governor.html (http://)

[Tom]

Bad link.

[alhattab]

I seem to recall that in the agreement NYRA came to with the state, where NYRA gave the state control of the land in exchange for a franchise extension + cash, it was stipulated that if the VLTs weren't in the process of being built, or weren't built by a certain time, the state would have to pay NYRA $$$$.

That time has come and gone already I believe, and the state hasn't lived up to its side of the bargain, has it?

I ask these questions because I haven't been keeping up with the situation and would like to know the answers myself.

What $? NYS doesn't have any!

[Rutgers]

If it can't survive without VLTs, It should fold. There are a few(very few) industries that the government should help out from time to time, but one which runs on gambling isn't one of them. JMO

I tend to agree with you in most cases.

But horse racing in New York isn’t on a level playing with other businesses or forms of gambling. And the uneven playing field comes from horse racing being more regulated and hindered by government intervention. One example, is NYRA’s takeout rates being established by state law. To the point at when NYCOTB was in financial trouble, NYRA was forced to raise takeout.

And since the OTB’s in New York are government run (and provide a lot of patronage jobs) and compete against NYRA for wagering dollars, the politicians in New York tend to be anti-NYRA.

So if horse racing is going to be hindered by government from fairly competing with other forms of gambling, I think it is only fair to give them supplements from the VLTs.

[Track Collector]

SpaceMon,

Let's see if I've got this right... the takeout in slots ranges from maybe 3% to 8%. We play a game which routinely faces at least double that in takeout as the minimum and they are stupid?

Dave

The number of consistent winners at racing is very small, however, I would venture to guess that the number of consistent winners at slots is a magnitude smaller. Why? With slots, you can only win thru short-term deviations to machines that are mathematically programmed against your winning. The takeout may be significantly less, but the long-term opportunities to come out ahead are virtually impossible. With racing, the takeouts may be higher, but thru skill and hard work, one can at least hope to overcome as you are competiing against other players and not mathematical algorithms. It may be extremely difficult, but a select few DO become winners over time.

It becomes an issue of something very difficult (racing) vs. something virtually impossible (slots). If the end result is a chance to win, racing is by far the "smarter" choice.

[Stevie Belmont]

This is from the upstate Record—there was a rally yestersday.

http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2010/03/18/news/doc4ba185f2e8af6925351469.txt

[DJofSD]

The dumb thing about it is Delaware North was picked but couldn't come up with the upfront money of $370 million due to the credit crunch. If the state wasn't so greedy about the upfront money and agree to delayed payment the VLTs would be up and running already.

Heaven forbid Delaware North getting involved at any level.

With the assistance of some connections, they were awarded the contract to run the Old Town state park here in San Diego. Long time (33 years?) operator, Diane Powers, lost the bid, and, business quickly went down hill. Delaware North took a once thriving entertainment venue and immediately started to lose business. They ignored the local community and decided they knew best. A bunch of corporate winnies making decisions from afar.

Saratoga is rich in history and tradition. If Delaware North gets a chance to run things, expect anything and everything to be changed.

[OTM Al]

To answer sone of the questions here:

All the harness tracks have slots as well as Finger Lakes T'breds. NYRA tracks are the only horse tracks in the state that do not have a slots facility attached.

When NYRA was awarded the frachise, which happened after the slots were removed from the contol of the racing franchisee, the State promised that the slots would be on line by April 2009 and if not, they would make payments to NYRA to cover the lost revenue. NYRA was the only bidder, if I recall, that bid both before and after control of the slots were part of the deal. I really doubt NYRA would need the slots at all if they ran even just NYCOTB, let alone the other 5. Thus if they were allowed to sell their own product directly outside the track, they would probably be just fine.

Slot takeout may only be 3-8% but as I've said before so many times, you can pop that button a good 7-8 times a minute. You will lose. You will lose faster than the races, and the effective compounded takeout over the same amount of time will be one hell of a lot higher on the slots.

[slewis]

I seem to recall that in the agreement NYRA came to with the state, where NYRA gave the state control of the land in exchange for a franchise extension + cash, it was stipulated that if the VLTs weren't in the process of being built, or weren't built by a certain time, the state would have to pay NYRA $$$$.

That time has come and gone already I believe, and the state hasn't lived up to its side of the bargain, has it?

I ask these questions because I haven't been keeping up with the situation and would like to know the answers myself.


Please show this agreement.

I've been trying to get the final franchise agreement but keep getting run arounds.
If attorney's for the state put that in the agreement, they are as dumb as those that failed to foresee the value and bargaining position of the (possible, because it was never adjudicated) land ownership back in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

I think you're blowing hot air.

[Tom]

You might want to check with Steve Byk...they just did about an hour on this about a month ago with a few guests. I'll see if I can find the date.

[OTM Al]

The agreement is not so hard to find. Took me about 2 minutes really....Here's one place where it is

http://www.votesmart.org/billtext/17171.pdf

[baldvin]

SpaceMon,

Let's see if I've got this right... the takeout in slots ranges from maybe 3% to 8%. We play a game which routinely faces at least double that in takeout as the minimum and they are stupid?

I really get the lazy part... although I have known some video poker players who work darned hard at their game.


Dave

You can make living playing vidoe poker. if do right it has positive ex 100.76

[Robert Goren]

You can make living playing vidoe poker. if do right it has positive ex 100.76 Is this true?

[OTM Al]

Is this true?

My friend loves playing this and also claims it is true, as long as you are playing on a real, Vegas/AC type machine, not the VLT. Of course I don't think his results have bourne it out too well....

[Rutgers]

Is this true?

A few machines in a few casinos, mainly in Nevada have a payout percentage over 100%.

A knowledgeable VP player can identify these machines thru the pay table on the machine. (The internet and message boards help too.)

To be profitable, the player must play perfect strategy. And the strategy is slightly different for each version of VP. But, on the plus side there are strategy cards the players can use.

Even if the game does not have a payback of over a 100%, some games can still be profitable when you factor in comps, bonus and special promotions.

Now on the downside, most players do not have the discipline to play perfect strategy, or to play only “good paying” machines. In fact, when using improper playing strategy, the player can lose far more then the expected holdback percentage (assuming long term play). Also, if a player is winning to much the casino operator can bar them from playing (at least in Nevada) Or the casino can always remove the VP machine.

The VTL games that will be at Aqueduct (and are in place at the other NY tracks) are not these types. An individual's strategy or decisions have no bearring on the outcome or the player long-term return, which will be about 92%. (For example, in a real VP if you are dealt a straight flush and you throw it away, it is very, very unlikely you will draw another. In the VLT version, if you did that you would be dealt another straight flush. Because, VLT are really electronic scratch off tickets. Whether you won or not and how much was determine at the time you pushed the button)

[Dave Schwartz]

You can make living playing vidoe poker. if do right it has positive ex 100.76

It might be even better than that...

http://vptruth.com/

[Rutgers]

Just to add:

In theory, it is possible to be a professional VP player. In reality, it's probably a hard way to make easy money.

There may be some pros out there, but I do not know of any. (which in all honesty ain't saying much). I am pretty sure there are people out playing VP for profit, but I am not sure everyone would call them professionals.

[PaceAdvantage]

As posted in another thread, this excerpt from a recent Piesen piece:If New York lawmakers had taken this responsibility seriously, the state would not be in default to the New York Racing Association for approximately $40 million since, as proscribed in the new franchise agreement, VLTs were not up and running by March of 2009.

[framarco]

For those of you who do not seem to understand NY politics, here is a refresher course: Albany is a cesspool of corrupt, incompetent thieves run by a mob-boss, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver and his henchmen in the Senate, John Sampson and Malcolm Smith. We have had a governor resign amid Tiger-like sexcapades and we inherited his predecessor, a lying scheming blind man who is not qualified to be a garbage collector.

NYC-OTB is in bankruptcy and has defaulted in 15 Million dollars worth of mandated payments to NYRA. VLTs were promised to NYRA NINE years ago and through various political and legal problems, we are still waiting for them at Aqueduct. NYRA deeded the real property at Aqueduct, Belmont and Saratoga to the State in consideration for receiving a 25 year franchise to operate racing. The State of New York promised to make NYRa whole if VLTs were not operating by April of 2009, to wit, one year ago. If the VLTs had been operating as of one year ago, NYRA would be offering purses about double what they are now.

The state should just get out of NYRAs way. We are loosing upstate breeding farms at an alarming rate to Pennsylvania, a state that fast-tracked VLTs at its thoroughbred tracks. If the state would just live up to its bargain, NY racing and the NYRA would be able to return to its rightful place as the nation's # one racing product. Moreover, the four decade error that is NYC_OTB must come to a merciful end. NYC-OTB is a vicious parasite that has sucked NY racing and its fans dry. It serves no useful purpose and its failure to live up to is obligations has endangered the very sport that it was created to help.