Feet Per Second Software

[coachgonzo]

After reading Modern Pace Handicapping again, I would like to look at using feet per second a little more. I understand the concepts, but the number crunching seems like it would take a tremendous amount of time.

Has anyone had any experience using software that can translate traditional past performances into the fps mode that Brohamer suggests?

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks and good luck at the window.

[Light]

Race Prophet does just that and its free.The top FPS horse does pay some nice prices every so often. But the top FPS horse is not profitable used as a black box in my small study of it.

[raybo]

Go to my website and check out AllData PPs. It has traditional style PPs and "Sartin" type ratings with "fps" figures for all fractions.

It's free, too. Soon we will have a beta version which does not need the use of the present data parser (Infotran), so, it will be much more user friendly. Excel is required and version 2007 will be first, then later, a pre-2007 version will probably be uploaded.

[Charlie D]

Contact Ted Cravan via here


http://www.sartinmethodology.com/


Or Ken Massa here

http://www.homebased2.com/km/htrinfo.htm

[Charlie D]

:ThmbUp: to raybo and alldata software.

[Partsnut]

coachgonzo: After reading Modern Pace Handicapping again, I would like to look at using feet per second a little more. I understand the concepts, but the number crunching seems like it would take a tremendous amount of time.

Has anyone had any experience using software that can translate traditional past performances into the fps mode that Brohamer suggests?

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks and good luck at the window

The 2 best programs or software that were made and originally created for the "Brohammer Factors" are 1- Synergism 2 (which is the updated version of Phase III and MPH Ver. 1.4.
All the rest are meaningless and nonsense because they do not incorporate the factors you are looking for and are more or less a futile and re-hashed attempt to produce a new magic bullet that is most likely mathematically incorrect.

If these are the readings you want then look into the software I suggested:

[46zilzal]

After reading Modern Pace Handicapping again, I would like to look at using feet per second a little more. I understand the concepts, but the number crunching seems like it would take a tremendous amount of time.

Has anyone had any experience using software that can translate traditional past performances into the fps mode that Brohamer suggests?

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks and good luck at the window.
the learning curve is quite steep so be prepared for a lot of head scratching before the light bulb comes on...particularly when it is reported in the "raw" feet per second data and not energy distribution wise

[Fingal]

Just to cover another, here's the program that Bob Pitlak puts out that converts BRIS single file downloads.

http://www.sports-bet-advantage.com/sartpro2.htm

[Partsnut]

46zilzal: the learning curve is quite steep so be prepared for a lot of head scratching before the light bulb comes on...particularly when it is reported in the "raw" feet per second data and not energy distribution wise



46zilzal is one of the few that has good insight on this subject.
Heed what he says. He uses one of the older Sartin programs (Validator or Speculator) which proves to be very effective for him. He has been a good friend to me and I have learned a lot from him.
My choice of software Synergism 2, MPH ver.1.4 and PaceAppraiser works for me. I feel these programs have a direct relationship and were designed for the Brohammer factors and possibly they are a bit more understandable and pace oriented..

In my humble opinion: Tom Bohammer, Dick Schmidt, Bob Purdy, Ken Massa and Randy Giles (PaceAppraiser) are the without a doubt the smartest producers of pace handicapping material and software that has been and is currently being used today. They have no equals.

However, we can not discount the good works of Jeff Platt, Dave Schwartz and Gordon Pine.

[Partsnut]

Results For AQU 03-17-10 (Example Race) R1 Before The Fact

[Charlie D]

Zilly


What is the difference between the software you use and RDSS???

[Charlie D]

Another question for you Zilly


MPH = FPS Match Up

Zillys software = FPS Match Up

RDSS = FPS Match Up



Is this correct???

[Partsnut]

Charlie D: Zilly
What is the difference between the software you use and RDSS???

Charlie, please forgive my intrusion. I realive that your question was directed to
46zilzal but I figured I'd add my 2 cents worth.

The biggest difference in the software that 46zilzal uses is the methods he employs is his use and understanding of the software and his overall knowledge of pace handicapping.. You must also realize that his input and contender selections might very well differ from yours. We all do things in a different way and make our own choices. Additionally,
the data and the way the software formulates the data and the ability and knowledge of the programmer, as well as the mathematical correctness and data used will have a telling resultant.:ThmbDown:

The bottom line is that you can't take a Toyota and make it into a Cadillac.
With no offense intended: Your question, as I see it, is like comparing a diamond to a rock.:lol:

[Charlie D]

This thread is not about what Zilly does or does not do, this thread is about someone asking people about FPS software.


Some of which has been posted by various members.


And btw Bill this


All the rest are meaningless and nonsense because they do not incorporate the factors you are looking for


is nonsense.

[46zilzal]

Zilly


What is the difference between the software you use and RDSS???
nothing except the platform: mine is DOS the other Windows

[ranchwest]

I think the biggest consideration is paceline selection. I suspect most of the programs have no SIGNIFICANT differences in calculations. The significant factor is which paceline(s) you work from.

I wrote my own.

[46zilzal]

I think the biggest consideration is paceline selection. I suspect most of the programs have no SIGNIFICANT differences in calculations. The significant factor is which paceline(s) you work from.

I wrote my own.
not alone as I began the use of multiple pacelines and it has proven to be very effective as well as modeling by a factor called early/late balance that is only found with the Sartin programs...e/l relativity was a breakthrough

Once a variety of pacelines are selected one then returns to evaluate the pace of race each came from so as to match them up to the same relevant pace and look for form cycles.

[Charlie D]

nothing except the platform: mine is DOS the other Windows


Thanks Zilly.

[Partsnut]

Charlie D.
This thread is not about what Zilly does or does not do, this thread is about someone asking people about FPS software.


Some of which has been posted by various members.


And btw Bill this
All the rest are meaningless and nonsense because they do not incorporate the factors you are looking for


is nonsense.



Charlie, I respect your opinion. Some will agree with me and some won't.
However, I did address what I think would be best and reasons why.
You are the one that asked for a comparison. You may believe that what I posted and you quoted as being nonsense. In the same light, I may believe that what you are using is nonsense. BTW, are you working for, or just promoting RDSS? Or, are you just one of the few happy users ? :lol:

It is up to the readers to formulate their own opinions.

[ranchwest]

not alone as I began the use of multiple pacelines and it has proven to be very effective as well as modeling by a factor called early/late balance that is only found with the Sartin programs...e/l relativity was a breakthrough

Once a variety of pacelines are selected one then returns to evaluate the pace of race each came from so as to match them up to the same relevant pace and look for form cycles.

What is the difference between early/late balance and %E?

[Charlie D]

The only person i work for is myself Bill and FYI, I do not even use RDSS or HTR, but i do know these are the types of software the OP should be downloading and trying out.

[Ted Craven]

Results For AQU 03-17-10 (Example Race) R1 Before The Fact


Congratulations!

http://www.sartinmethodology.com/images/pa/aqu0317-1.gif

[Charlie D]

Look at that, what a surprise!! RDSS is FPS software

[46zilzal]

What is the difference between early/late balance and %E?
a proprietary evaluation incorporating math I am not privy to but it is defined as the weighted difference between second call and final fraction

[PhantomOnTour]

Does anyone here use Quirin style figs? Do you make your own? Is there a place that provides Quirin style figs? I used to make my own for FG and NY (aint that a challenge...figs in NY!) but life and family and career have curtailed the time needed to do them correctly.

Brohamer devotes quite a bit of time to Quirin style figs in the updated version of 'Modern Pace Handicapping', and seems to think they are just as good as Sartin FPS calcs...any thoughts regarding the two?

[Tom]

The only place I know you can get real Quirin figs is speed figures.com.

http://www.speedfigures.com/

But only for California tracks.
They do a lot of free stuff there, and you can get pars for other tracks.
I have make my own, but I cheat - I convert CJ pace and speed numbers to the Q scale, just because I have been making/using that kind since the 70's.
I don't really understand what 92-77 is for a race shape, but I know what a 103-99 is.

Let me ask you a question...do you use 1 point or 2 for pace call beaten lengths? Quinn and Quirin disagree here....I use 1 point.

[Charlie D]

Can't help PhantomonTour, i'm afraid.

Try PA search facility for Quirin Style figs

I just found this http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59418&highlight=Quirin+style+figs and there are loads more results

[PhantomOnTour]

Thanks for the responses ya'll, and i dont mean to redirect this thread.

I bought from 'speedfigures.com' (prices are nice at only $7 a track or so) but found their pars to be way off for NY tracks...ofcourse maybe its me who's way off. Their numbers were far from what I had come up with by doing the painstaking research of actually making my own pars...ugh!

To answer your pace question: my pace figs are in 10ths, so 1 length=1 point=1/10 second. Final time is in 5ths as you know. I know these type figs dont provide a true BL representation (losing by a length at 5f is the same as losing by a length at 1m1/4) but they continue to amaze me with their performance, esp. with 3yr olds.

[Partsnut]

Ted Craven: Congratulations!


I find quite a few differences in your "after the fact" pictorial.

1 - Your ESP or running style designation is incorrect as far as I'm concerned:
You have (4) French Song (Line 2) as a sustained pressure when in fact the horse is an E (early horse).

2 - You indicate the HID or hidden energy as (2) when in fact it is a (3)

3- Your FX and FW representations are out of whack. You have it as: FW2 and FX4: Take a look at the attach Image.

4 - Your total energy figure is 168.69. I have it as 165.64 (Synergism)

Maybe you can grace the board with your before the fact projections, picking just one horse to win or possibly enter one of the boards contests so that we can get a true assessment of how good you and your products are.

I strongly question the accuracy of your numbers.

[46zilzal]

Ted Craven:



1 - Your ESP or running style designation is incorrect as far as I'm concerned:
You have (4) French Song (Line 2) as a sustained pressure when in fact the horse is an E (early horse).


the horse French Song ran its last 10 races as 2 sustained, 4 sustained/presser, one each presser, early. early/presser

seems it runs later than earlier

[Ted Craven]

What is the difference between early/late balance and %E?

In the Pace of Horse (PoH) Velocity screen below (upper one), %Early Energy distribution as described by Brohamer would be calculated as SC (2nd call velocity) / SC + F3 velocity. %E is not shown on this screen (though %Median is elsewhere, a later nuance simply: F1+F2 / F1+F2+F3).

Early/Late distribution comprises a similar 2nd call rating (EPR) and a reciprocal rating for the balance of the race (LPR, or FFR in Pace Makes the Race parlance). These are shown in their respective columns in the lower screen. E/L Differential is the surplus/deficit of Early Energy (distributed to the 2nd call), over Late Energy (i.e. EPR - LPR). Somewhat similar concept to %E but (IMO) more clearly shows where the horse (or a given line for a horse) tends to disburse its energy (positive differential is more Early, negative diff is more Late).

Modeling these values for winners by track, distance and surface can show, at minimum, which horses typically don't distribute their energy the way winners do (at least according to a consistently applied line selection strategy if these models are constructed from PP lines, rather than from winner's lines from the race's Result Chart).

Brohamer talks about the concept of Energy Distribution in his Energy Distribution Chapter of MPH and calculates it by finding a differential between 2nc call velocity and F3 velocity (same idea).

The E/L Difference method used by much Sartin software (from Synergism forward) is described in Pace Makes the Race (original edition) Advanced Concepts chapter.

Whichever way you do it, knowing a difference of early versus late energy often helps tell you which horse's 'picture' most resemble winners at today's track/distance/surface.

Ted

[Partsnut]

46ZILZAL: the horse French Song ran its last 10 races as 2 sustained, 4 sustained/presser, one each presser, early. early/presser

seems it runs later than earlier

Tim, I hate to disagree with you but take a look at the following image which proves my point;

There's no way, Jose, that this is a sustained horse.
At most an early type presser

[ranchwest]

a proprietary evaluation incorporating math I am not privy to but it is defined as the weighted difference between second call and final fraction

Thanks. I believe I understand.

[46zilzal]

46ZILZAL:

Tim, I hate to disagree with you but take a look at the following image which proves my point;

There's no way, Jose, that this is a sustained horse.
At most an early type presser

EARLY horses run % medians of +69 and this one averaged in its last ten starts around 68 with the majority of its runs right there.

Not arguing here just stating fact...fairly consistent animal too. its best races lines 4, 6 and 2 ran, in sprints, 67.5 and 68.0, 68.1 respectively
ONLY in the 10th line back, a turf route, did it move into real early range
|SAMPLE| error can do that to understanding...

[Charlie D]

If i were using Ted's software i wouldn't be clicking on the E or EP Running Style buttons for French Song.


Others however, may come to a different conclusion.

[Ted Craven]

There's no way, Jose, that this is a sustained horse.
At most an early type presser

There is a distinction between a Visual Running Style (RS) and an Energy Disbursement pattern (ESP). Will the horse vie for the lead, or press the early leaders? Not on dirt, and not in a sprint. It mingles with the pack around the 2nd call point, and is some kind of Presser, visually.

ESP is just a label for a range of %Median (or %Early if you prefer). ESP does not denote a visual running style - it denotes a balance of energy expended by the 2nd call. The %Median or %Energy to the 2nd call can fluctuate due to many things, and the pattern shown by that label is not particularly useful (IMO). However, in those programs which show E/L Differential, as below, how does the horse tend to disburse its energy in general: Early or Late (Early), and not wildly Early, but rather moderately Early (i.e. closer to the middle line, the balanced line), than towards tending to use all its energy by the 2nd call. Finally, how does this compare to how winners at AQU inner 6f disburse their energy (not sure, but probably pretty well). This, as compared to the #1A or #2, for example, who tend to distribute their energy on the Late side (i.e. not like winners).

The E/L concept makes it rather easier to see who fits the pattern of winner, and who doesn't.

Ted

[Charlie D]

If you look at French Song's Dirt lines, you will see she is no closer to the lead than 1.5 Lengths at either the 1c or 2c.

If French Song is no closer than the above, how can French Song be Pressing the Pace??


Zilly is correct in my humble in stating this horse is a Late type

[Partsnut]

Charlie D:

If you look at French Song's Dirt lines, you will see he is no closer to the lead than 1.5 Lengths at either the 1c or 2c.

If French Song is no closer than the above, how can French Song be Pressing the Pace??


Zilly is correct in my humble in stating this horse is a Late type



Charlie, You're entitled to your opinion.
keep on pushing your buttons and viewing those pretty pictures.
We need people in the game like you. It makes for better prices.

It totally amazes me that there are those that are so misconcepted in their analysis of pace. It would be hard for me to believe that they can ever become successful at the game.
The redundant and arduous banter rehashing of the Sartin Methodology and it's formulary is not a defense or excuse for software that violates the very same principals. To justify this does not give one much credibility and says very little for his overall knowledge. In my opinion, the use of such products will lead to ones ultimate failure.

I have adequately showed and pictured the discrepancies that I have found. The after the fact pictures that were posted are meanlingless to me. It's like saying, I could've, would've and should've.

Enough said, use whatever floats your boat. I doesn't make a hell of a difference to me.

[Charlie D]

IHere's is how horse won today according to Bris

3-1.5 2-1 2-1 1-2.5



Where does this horse Press the Pace?? it doesn't, it gets near on on Lead LATE as shown above and in it's other races.


Keep using inferior stuff Bill instead of your friggin brain.

[Charlie D]

Enough said, use whatever floats your boat. I doesn't make a hell of a difference to me.




You'd not think that reading some of your posts on this thread.

[Partsnut]

Charlie D. Here's is how horse won today according to Bris
3-1.5 2-1 2-1 1-2.5


This is not a presser sustained as RDSS indicated.

This is what I said in a prior post:

1 - Your ESP or running style designation is incorrect as far as I'm concerned:
You have (4) French Song (Line 2) as a sustained pressure when in fact the horse is an E (early horse).


Charlie D. Keep using inferior stuff Bill instead of your friggin brain. :bang:
Dumb, dumber, dumbest (take your pick).
Your closing comment does not effect me in the least.

[Charlie D]

I think i'll let readers decide who is dumb, dumber, dumbest Bill

[Partsnut]

Charlie DI think i'll let readers decide who is dumb, dumber, dumbest Bill

OK Charlie,
Enough for today. Have a nice evening.

[Charlie D]

Have a nice evening.


I already am :)


Good Skill

[fast4522]

Good Skill last used by Binny, last logged on to this BBS 1-11-2010
Is the you Binny?

[Charlie D]

Sorry Fast4522, I'm not that person.

[Partsnut]

Fast4522: Good Skill last used by Binny, last logged on to this BBS 1-11-2010
Is the you Binny?

Steve, I see you picked up on that as well.
Hmmm, that wouldn't surprise me.

[fast4522]

SSDD LMFAO!

[Charlie D]

Fast4522:

Steve, I see you picked up on that as well.
Hmmm, that wouldn't surprise me.


You've insulted me and now your implying i'm lying about not being someone you think i am.

What a wanker you are Bill and you seem to have found a good mate in Fast too.

[Partsnut]

Charlie D. You've insulted me and now your implying i'm lying about not being someone you think i am.

What a wanker you are Bill and you seem to have found a good mate in Fast too.

I see you get insulted very easily. Why, I will never understand. I never insulted you and never implied anything. I can assume whatever suits me. I don't know who you are and don't care who you are.
I don't think you know who you are.
I think you may have some serious issues.
I only tell you this because I'm concerned and hopeful that you will seek help.:lol:

[Charlie D]

I never insulted you and never implied anything

No you didn't :lol:


I know who i am as my user name tells me everytime i look at it, there is information under it which also tells me which country i live in too.

[ranchwest]

In the Pace of Horse (PoH) Velocity screen below (upper one), %Early Energy distribution as described by Brohamer would be calculated as SC (2nd call velocity) / SC + F3 velocity. %E is not shown on this screen (though %Median is elsewhere, a later nuance simply: F1+F2 / F1+F2+F3).

Early/Late distribution comprises a similar 2nd call rating (EPR) and a reciprocal rating for the balance of the race (LPR, or FFR in Pace Makes the Race parlance). These are shown in their respective columns in the lower screen. E/L Differential is the surplus/deficit of Early Energy (distributed to the 2nd call), over Late Energy (i.e. EPR - LPR). Somewhat similar concept to %E but (IMO) more clearly shows where the horse (or a given line for a horse) tends to disburse its energy (positive differential is more Early, negative diff is more Late).

Modeling these values for winners by track, distance and surface can show, at minimum, which horses typically don't distribute their energy the way winners do (at least according to a consistently applied line selection strategy if these models are constructed from PP lines, rather than from winner's lines from the race's Result Chart).

Brohamer talks about the concept of Energy Distribution in his Energy Distribution Chapter of MPH and calculates it by finding a differential between 2nc call velocity and F3 velocity (same idea).

The E/L Difference method used by much Sartin software (from Synergism forward) is described in Pace Makes the Race (original edition) Advanced Concepts chapter.

Whichever way you do it, knowing a difference of early versus late energy often helps tell you which horse's 'picture' most resemble winners at today's track/distance/surface.

Ted

Thanks, Ted. I found this post very helpful.

[Rwahi1]

I have been watching this for couple of years ! Do some you clowns have a Hard-On for Ted's Software ? !

[Charlie D]

I have been watching this for couple of years ! Do some you clowns have a Hard-On for Ted's Software ? !


Not me bud, i just give free unbiased opinion to people asking questions as you should.

BTW, have you got any i could try and do same??

[Rwahi1]

Not me bud, i just give free unbiased opinion to people asking questions as you should.

BTW, have you got any i could try and do same??

Charlie D ! My quote was not directed at you, but towards those who keep knocking Ted's software down. I use RDSS with one another software. I do very well !.

[PaceAdvantage]

I doesn't make a hell of a difference to me.The evidence in this thread would point to the contrary.

[PaceAdvantage]

I have been watching this for couple of years ! Do some you clowns have a Hard-On for Ted's Software ? !In fact they do, which they illustrate every so often around here...it's getting old, I agree.

But of course, they'll just brush off my comments as being biased because Ted advertises here. If I were really biased, I'd simply ban these "clowns" as you call them. But since they're still posting here, I guess I'm not really all that biased, am I?

[chickenhead]

nerd fight!

what a sad argument you guys have had here. You should all go to your rooms and think about it for awhile.

[Tom]

The reason numbers do not match is that Ted's software ( EXCELLENT program, btw) uses the TM variants and track to track adjustments. If yours does not, of course they will differ. As far as RS, as I point out to Zilly on occasion, there is a difference in how people define and use it. To use your definaion to criticisze the other guy's is ridiculous. I prefer visual, but when I use that type of prgram, I go with the flow and use it exactly as 46 describes. It makes sense to use the tools as they were deasigned to be used. Of course you can use a pair of pliers for a hammer.

[Rwahi1]

In fact they do, which they illustrate every so often around here...it's getting old, I agree.

But of course, they'll just brush off my comments as being biased because Ted advertises here. If I were really biased, I'd simply ban these "clowns" as you call them. But since they're still posting here, I guess I'm not really all that biased, am I?

My conscious is bothering me ...........

And I want to apologize for been crass. I should have chosen my words little more carefully. I sounded like the biggest "Clown" myself.
PA..You have a great site with diversified members and I got to respect every-one's opinions.

[Partsnut]

RWahl1:


My conscious is bothering me ...........

And I want to apologize for been crass. I should have chosen my words little more carefully. I sounded like the biggest "Clown" myself.
PA..You have a great site with diversified members and I got to respect every-one's opinions.


H Ramon,

Your post was well taken by me. I guess this is a great day for recriminations and humility.

You have helped me in the past and I have never forgotten your kindness.

This post is not directed at you personally but to all that have passed comment on this thread.

I believe you set a good example and the standards that one should adhere to and follow before passing comment. Think before you post.

I will openly apologize as well, to any and all that I may have offended with any of my comments.

It is not my plight in life to insult or offend anyone.

Sometimes we become very impassioned with our beliefs and say things that should not be said.. Even though you may have been offended by others, you should not compound their ignorance and respond to them.. Pre-thought and restraint should be the first order of the day before one responds. The unspoken word is often ones best response.

I realize that everyone is entitled to their opinion but these opinions should not be form of an insult.

It is better to make friends then make enemies.:ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm digging this new vibe... :ThmbUp: :lol:

[Partsnut]

PaceAdvantageI'm digging this new vibe... :ThmbUp: :lol:

It took me a long time and a lot of needless anguish to come to my present attitude.
I realize at this point that it is not necessary to be over opinionated and expend negative energy about anything or anyone. It serves no purpose. When I have something positive to add, I will be happy to do so. Otherwise. I will read and remain silent.
I appreciate your tolerance, You have a great forum and I'm happy to be a member and participate on this board. I know, you put in a lot of time and exert a lot of your energy into making this horse racing board the most successful board of it's kind. I appreciate you as a person and respect your hard work.

I found out that it's never too late in life to learn from ones mistakes.
Yes, you can teach an old dog new tricks. :lol: