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Cadillakin
03-14-2010, 03:22 PM
http://www.drf.com/news/article/111445.html

cpitt84
03-14-2010, 03:33 PM
:( Disappointing but no shock. I was really looking forward to zen vs ra

tzipi
03-14-2010, 03:39 PM
:( Disappointing but no shock. I was really looking forward to zen vs ra

It's only March. We have a WHOLE year left guys and gals. The racing season doesn't end the first week of April, it's just starting. The have only ran one race. Most horses now are not close to top shape in March. Let's hit the track in top shape. Keep the chins up. Plenty of time :ThmbUp:

GMB@BP
03-14-2010, 03:39 PM
Yup, 6 months is not enough to get ready to race again....excuses from that team since last September.

racing is taking it in the a_s as usual

cj
03-14-2010, 03:40 PM
Sure glad I sold some of the seats I had!

Grits
03-14-2010, 03:40 PM
And this decision is fine. One would rather watch a race that all involved are well and fit so that there's less worry.

Rachel will go on another day, in another spot.

One can look forward to seeing Zenyatta and others in Hot Springs, though, one can hope this doesn't cancel every reservation made tanking their economical boost of recent weeks. Arkansas Derby will be a joy to watch. Looking forward to racing and to shrimp and oysters.

cj
03-14-2010, 03:41 PM
I wonder if Shirreffs will be keen on sending Zardana now. He already cost the Mosses a shot at a five million dollar purse by sending her to New Orleans.

tzipi
03-14-2010, 03:41 PM
Yup, 6 months is not enough to get ready to race again....excuses from that team since last September.

racing is taking it in the a_s as usual

Yeah a trainer would laugh at that statement. Yup and you would've trashed Kelso,Affirmed,Charm and COUNTLESS champions after they lost their comeback races after long layoffs. :rolleyes:

Horseplayersbet.com
03-14-2010, 03:42 PM
If it ducks like a duck, it is a duck.

They gave HOY last year to a duck.

tzipi
03-14-2010, 03:44 PM
If it ducks like a duck, it is a duck.

They gave HOY last year to a duck.

Man this really shows you people have NO clue or grasp of horse racing. The horse just lost a comeback race(like all champions have) and it's only March. The start of the season.
HOY was for last year not this year. :rolleyes:

Show Me the Wire
03-14-2010, 03:44 PM
I wonder if Shirreffs will be keen on sending Zenyatta now. How good is the possibility Zardana, the dirt loving horse shows, instead of Zenyatta?

cj
03-14-2010, 03:46 PM
If it ducks like a duck, it is a duck.

They gave HOY last year to a duck.

Plenty of Horse of the Year's come back and are not the same. It has nothing to do with last year. Should they take away the 2yo filly Eclipse's from all the horses that have flopped the next year?

It is Horse of the Year, not Horse of Next Year. I'm still glad they rewarded an ambitious campaign instead of giving to one that had one real race, and that one a last minute audible.

cj
03-14-2010, 03:47 PM
I wonder if Shirreffs will be keen on sending Zenyatta now. How good is the possibility Zardana, the dirt loving horse shows, instead of Zenyatta?

Yep, as I noted in another thread, he already cost them a shot at a 5 million dollar purse.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-14-2010, 03:47 PM
Plenty of Horse of the Year's come back and are not the same. It has nothing to do with last year. Should they take away the 2yo filly Eclipse's from all the horses that have flopped the next year?

It is Horse of the Year, not Horse of Next Year. I'm still glad they rewarded an ambitious campaign instead of giving to one that had one real race, and that one a last minute audible.
I don't think she should have got it last year. Zenyatta won the Super Bowl.

Hanover1
03-14-2010, 03:49 PM
Yup, 6 months is not enough to get ready to race again....excuses from that team since last September.

racing is taking it in the a_s as usual
Umm....most of that time is spent allowing the horse to mature, and not getting ready to race. We are not talking yearlings here, but race proven horses. The last 90 days are the key prior to first out back.......

cj
03-14-2010, 03:50 PM
I don't think she should have got it last year. Zenyatta won the Super Bowl.

Fine, that is your opinion and at least plausible even if I disagree.

How Rachel ran on March 13th, 2010 has nothing to do with how she ran in 2009. Are you trying to pretend her race yesterday was of the quality, just against better competition?

Relwob Owner
03-14-2010, 03:50 PM
I don't think she should have got it last year. Zenyatta won the Super Bowl.

You are calling the Breeders Cup the Super Bowl? In the Super Bowl, do they play on concrete or some other third surface that isnt grass or astroturf? That is a really difficult analogy to embrace IMO...

tzipi
03-14-2010, 03:50 PM
I don't think she should have got it last year. Zenyatta won the Super Bowl.

The "Super Bowl" dirt Classic was against turf horses and Zen beat a horse who would've ran in the Turf Classic if the BC was at Belmont,CD,etc. The rest of them barely even won races in months or on dirt. Cmon.

cj
03-14-2010, 03:51 PM
Yup, 6 months is not enough to get ready to race again....excuses from that team since last September.

racing is taking it in the a_s as usual

You know the plan was never to race in early March. They bought into the idea of the big race and tried to rush. Don't be so disingenuous.

PaceAdvantage
03-14-2010, 03:51 PM
Yup, 6 months is not enough to get ready to race again....excuses from that team since last September.

racing is taking it in the a_s as usualAll last year they raced her in a manner in which EVERY FAN OF THE GAME wanted to see...best against the best...Taking a 3yo filly and running her against the best 3yo males around in the Preakness, Haskell, and then against older males in the Grade 1 Woodward.

Seems like you're the one giving it to them in the a_s for absolutely no reason.

Si2see
03-14-2010, 03:51 PM
Although the horse now may not be where she should be... They still refused to go to california for a match up with Z because of Synthetic Surfaces... just seems like more excuses to me.

Charlie D
03-14-2010, 03:51 PM
Darn shame, but not the end of the World.

Get get em Monmouth Park. :)

cj
03-14-2010, 03:53 PM
Although the horse now may not be where she should be... They still refused to go to california for a match up with Z because of Synthetic Surfaces... just seems like more excuses to me.

Exactly how much longer should she have raced without a break? She would have needed another prep plus the classic. She had been running nonstop for a year, unheard of these days at the top levels of racing.

tzipi
03-14-2010, 03:53 PM
All last year they raced her in a manner in which EVERY FAN OF THE GAME wanted to see...best against the best...Taking a 3yo filly and running her against the best 3yo males around in the Preakness, Haskell, and then against older males in the Grade 1 Woodward.

Seems like you're the one giving it to them in the a_s for absolutely no reason.

I think they are never going to get it no matter what. Also funny there are no answers to the question, "Why didn't Zenyatta run in the Pacific Classic or other top male races all year and just against the same girls?"

They just attack for no reason. Half are saying the season is now over and it's only March and one race. Geez

Willy Wonka
03-14-2010, 03:54 PM
If it ducks like a duck, it is a duck.

They gave HOY last year to a duck.


Truer words were never spoken.

They had her tight and lost to Shirriffs' measuring stick and they know it.


Willy

my_nameaintearl
03-14-2010, 03:55 PM
im confused... she won horse of the year for 2009 right? is it 2010 now or am i missing something

Horseplayersbet.com
03-14-2010, 03:56 PM
Fine, that is your opinion and at least plausible even if I disagree.

How Rachel ran on March 13th, 2010 has nothing to do with how she ran in 2009. Are you trying to pretend her race yesterday was of the quality, just against better competition?
Rachel ran a good enough number to catapult her to one of her regular performances from last year.
On the dirt, I would have liked her next race, because Zenyatta is most likely not to improve that much off of yesterday's race.

I hope they reconsider and race her. Asmussen left room to change his mind.

cj
03-14-2010, 03:56 PM
Truer words were never spoken.

They had her tight and lost to Shirriffs' measuring stick and they know it.


Willy

Dumbest post of the year. You honestly think she was tight and lost with a 100 Beyer when she was winning with Beyers around 115 last year? Maybe she isn't capable of that any longer, time will tell, but to pretend this has anything to do with last year is just plain dumb.

gm10
03-14-2010, 03:57 PM
Man this really shows you people have NO clue or grasp of horse racing. The horse just lost a comeback race(like all champions have) and it's only March. The start of the season.
HOY was for last year not this year. :rolleyes:

To be precise, 2009 already ended in October on the East coast.

cj
03-14-2010, 03:57 PM
Rachel ran a good enough number to catapult her to one of her regular performances from last year.


Nobody really knows if that is true, but I'd respect the connections enough to know if they thought she was ready to run for 5 mil she would be there.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-14-2010, 03:58 PM
Dumbest post of the year. You honestly think she was tight and lost with a 100 Beyer when she was winning with Beyers around 115 last year? Maybe she isn't capable of that any longer, time will tell, but to pretend this has anything to do with last year is just plain dumb.
She probably only has to do a 106-108 to beat Zenyatta on the dirt.

cj
03-14-2010, 03:59 PM
She probably only has to do a 106-108 to beat Zenyatta on the dirt.

I saw nothing yesterday that told me she is close to top form.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-14-2010, 04:02 PM
I saw nothing yesterday that told me she is close to top form.
Even a 5 claimer would be expected to improve 3 or 4 lengths after a sub par first race of the season.
Look at who beat her for instance. Her first race of the year was similar to Rachel's yesterday except she got passed by a few more horse in the stretch in her opener.

Willy Wonka
03-14-2010, 04:05 PM
Rachel ran a good enough number to catapult her to one of her regular performances from last year.
On the dirt, I would have liked her next race, because Zenyatta is most likely not to improve that much off of yesterday's race.

I hope they reconsider and race her. Asmussen left room to change his mind.

Thats what is the intriguing part to this game. On one hand you call a duck when you see one and with plenty seconding that motion. Then you turn around and ratify the Mutual Pool by stating Zenyatta's cruising, troubled, wrapped up race won't be improved upon on a real dirt track she relished. We'll its not going to happen and it wouldn't have been worth wagering upon anyway unless one was contemplating beating Rachel out of the top spots.

Willy

By the way Rachel's effort was within a point of her previous best and may be the best she is now capable of.

Quack, Quack, Quack

Dahoss9698
03-14-2010, 04:05 PM
If it ducks like a duck, it is a duck.

They gave HOY last year to a duck.

There has been a lot of stupidity posted since yesterday. You just set a new bar. Congratulations are in order.

Irish Boy
03-14-2010, 04:06 PM
This is really getting ridiculous. First they didn't want to race on synthetics notwithstanding her success at Keeneland. Fine. Now they have a five million dollar purse, on a dirt track, at nine furlongs, with less travel, against only fillies and mares, with both her and Zenyatta coming off similar rest periods, and one prep race apiece, and that's not good enough either? Every conceivable advantage has been given to RA, and her connections are acting scared nevertheless. Two months ago I would have agreed that RA was easily better, but her connections actions speak louder than words.

Hanover1
03-14-2010, 04:09 PM
This is really getting ridiculous. First they didn't want to race on synthetics notwithstanding her success at Keeneland. Fine. Now they have a five million dollar purse, on a dirt track, at nine furlongs, with less travel, against only fillies and mares, with both her and Zenyatta coming off similar rest periods, and one prep race apiece, and that's not good enough either? Every conceivable advantage has been given to RA, and her connections are acting scared nevertheless. Two months ago I would have agreed that RA was easily better, but her connections actions speak louder than words.
Get off the connections nonsense. The mare is doing the talking-not fit.

Jasonm921
03-14-2010, 04:12 PM
A super bowl played under arena league rules.

cj
03-14-2010, 04:12 PM
By the way Rachel's effort was within a point of her previous best and may be the best she is now capable of.


On what scale?

Horseplayersbet.com
03-14-2010, 04:12 PM
Thats what is the intriguing part to this game. On one hand you call a duck when you see one and with plenty seconding that motion. Then you turn around and ratify the Mutual Pool by stating Zenyatta's cruising, troubled, wrapped up race won't be improved upon on a real dirt track she relished. We'll its not going to happen and it wouldn't have been worth wagering upon anyway unless one was contemplating beating Rachel out of the top spots.

Willy

By the way Rachel's effort was within a point of her previous best and may be the best she is now capable of.

Quack, Quack, Quack
Had Rachel been in the Breeders with Zenyatta last year, I'm pretty sure Zenyatta would have still won.

In the Apple Blossom based on form cycles and surface, I would have favored Rachel.

My contention here is that Rachel is ducking for the second time. And that Zenyatta deserved HOY last year (nothing to do with yesterday's outcome).

tzipi
03-14-2010, 04:13 PM
This is really getting ridiculous. First they didn't want to race on synthetics notwithstanding her success at Keeneland. Fine. Now they have a five million dollar purse, on a dirt track, at nine furlongs, with less travel, against only fillies and mares, with both her and Zenyatta coming off similar rest periods, and one prep race apiece, and that's not good enough either? Every conceivable advantage has been given to RA, and her connections are acting scared nevertheless. Two months ago I would have agreed that RA was easily better, but her connections actions speak louder than words.

You know nothing about the horses or racing. Zenyatta trained all along since BC, RA didn't. :rolleyes:
Every advantage? Zenyatta has been running in one state on the same clssing surface for how long?
One prep race is not good enough? No sometimes it's not. They are animals not machines. Guessing you've never worked with horses. Affirmed won almost all his races before his long layoff. He LOST his first two races back. You would've trashed Affirmed probably :D
Funny,I though it was March with a whole year to go IrishBoy. What month is it in your world?

Robert Fischer
03-14-2010, 04:16 PM
it's all screwed up

the world cup would have been an interesting alternative as well.

It's hard to get a feel for that surface yet, i haven't seen it enough. If things go well at Meydan that will be one of the worlds top races in a few years.

Zenyatta could have lost her prep if the jockeys had conspired to slow it down. They went in sub 1:12 and should have been shooting for 1:15 or so. But she was clearly in good form.

Rachel didn't look herself and she actually ran better than she looked. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't scan her and retire her to a minor injury or good judgment if she doen't make huge strides.

an aside on Zenyatta, the numbers are strong in most cases, and the surface debates and competition are stimulating, but at some point it can't help be noticed that she is a freakish physical athlete. She is "too big" but still (or aided by her size and strength) accelerates with the best and has good footwork. "Hands" measurements don't even do her justice, shes big all around and larger than most with her standard measurement. She's a man among boys.

Willy Wonka
03-14-2010, 04:16 PM
Dumbest post of the year. You honestly think she was tight and lost with a 100 Beyer when she was winning with Beyers around 115 last year? Maybe she isn't capable of that any longer, time will tell, but to pretend this has anything to do with last year is just plain dumb.

Beyers?

You gotta be kidding me right?

Rachel's effort was right there with her best. In lieu of a matchup you were having trouble with anyway, we're gonna go on the record in a meaningful race Mr. CJ. Mano a Mano. Lets make it the Kentucky Derby. Don't do an Aflac on us. You use whatever you're using and I'll use whatever I'm using. We'll work out the details after the final preps.

Willy

Irish Boy
03-14-2010, 04:18 PM
You know nothing about the horses or racing. Zenyatta trained all along since BC, RA didn't. :rolleyes:
Every advantage? Zenyatta has been running in one state on the same clssing surface for how long?
One prep race is not good enough? No sometimes it's not. They are animals not machines. Guessing you've never worked with horses. Affirmed won almost all his races before his long layoff. He LOST his first two races back. You would've trashed Affirmed probably :D
Funny,I though it was March with a whole year to go IrishBoy. What month is it in your world?
It's unfair to RA for the Apple Blossom that Zenyatta stayed in California? OK.

gm10
03-14-2010, 04:19 PM
This is really getting ridiculous. First they didn't want to race on synthetics notwithstanding her success at Keeneland. Fine. Now they have a five million dollar purse, on a dirt track, at nine furlongs, with less travel, against only fillies and mares, with both her and Zenyatta coming off similar rest periods, and one prep race apiece, and that's not good enough either? Every conceivable advantage has been given to RA, and her connections are acting scared nevertheless. Two months ago I would have agreed that RA was easily better, but her connections actions speak louder than words.

I agree with this. It's not an easy situation for RA's connections but they are running out of excuses. What exactly are they waiting for? A 5 million dollar dirt mile with only Zenyatta and Macho Again in the other stalls?

Dahoss9698
03-14-2010, 04:19 PM
Had Rachel been in the Breeders with Zenyatta last year, I'm pretty sure Zenyatta would have still won.

In the Apple Blossom based on form cycles and surface, I would have favored Rachel.

My contention here is that Rachel is ducking for the second time. And that Zenyatta deserved HOY last year (nothing to do with yesterday's outcome).

Rachel isn't ducking anything. I'm sure if we up to her she'd be running. Her connections are trying to do right by her. Jess made it clear early on last year she wasn't going in the Breeders Cup. I'm not even sure why that is being discussed still. Get over it.

I'd love to see them run against each other. It would appear the time isn't right for Rachel. Just like the time wasn't right for both last year. Again, get over it.

tzipi
03-14-2010, 04:20 PM
It's unfair to RA for the Apple Blossom that Zenyatta stayed in California? OK.

No it's ridiculous you think they had the same training up until yesterday. It's ridiculous you think that a first race back is a peak effort and it's ridiculous you and other people are acting like mid March is the end of the racing season? It's just starting and they'll be running all season long. It's not late Sept or Oct.

Dahoss9698
03-14-2010, 04:23 PM
I agree with this. It's not an easy situation for RA's connections but they are running out of excuses. What exactly are they waiting for? A 5 million dollar dirt mile with only Zenyatta and Macho Again in the other stalls?

If you owned Rachel and you thought she wasn't ready, would you run her? Or better yet, if you owned Zenyatta and you didn't feel she was ready, would you run her?

These horses don't owe us anything. If they get together great. But rushing to make a race, at the expense of the rest of the season does no one any good. It's amazing to me this concept is lost on so many people.

Charlie D
03-14-2010, 04:25 PM
There has been a lot of stupidity posted since yesterday. .


Agree.

DeanT
03-14-2010, 04:32 PM
it's all screwed up

the world cup would have been an interesting alternative as well.

It's hard to get a feel for that surface yet, i haven't seen it enough. If things go well at Meydan that will be one of the worlds top races in a few years.

Zenyatta could have lost her prep if the jockeys had conspired to slow it down. They went in sub 1:12 and should have been shooting for 1:15 or so. But she was clearly in good form.

Rachel didn't look herself and she actually ran better than she looked. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't scan her and retire her to a minor injury or good judgment if she doen't make huge strides.

an aside on Zenyatta, the numbers are strong in most cases, and the surface debates and competition are stimulating, but at some point it can't help be noticed that she is a freakish physical athlete. She is "too big" but still (or aided by her size and strength) accelerates with the best and has good footwork. "Hands" measurements don't even do her justice, shes big all around and larger than most with her standard measurement. She's a man among boys.

Good stuff Robert.:ThmbUp:

gm10
03-14-2010, 04:33 PM
If you owned Rachel and you thought she wasn't ready, would you run her? Or better yet, if you owned Zenyatta and you didn't feel she was ready, would you run her?

These horses don't owe us anything. If they get together great. But rushing to make a race, at the expense of the rest of the season does no one any good. It's amazing to me this concept is lost on so many people.

They're horses. You get them ready for the big occasions. You don't get to choose what the big occasions are. Something went wrong here. I certainly wouldn't want to be called Todd today.

Irish Boy
03-14-2010, 04:35 PM
No it's ridiculous you think they had the same training up until yesterday. It's ridiculous you think that a first race back is a peak effort and it's ridiculous you and other people are acting like mid March is the end of the racing season? It's just starting and they'll be running all season long. It's not late Sept or Oct.
Good thing we can be absolutely 100 certain they'll both be racing in October then, right?

As for yesterday, I don't think RA losing proves she's overrated or anything like that. I do think pulling out of the Apple Blossom proves that her connections won't run against Zenyatta unless every possible variable favors her. Zenyatta's camp tried to meet them halfway. That's still apparantly not enough.

Mineshaft
03-14-2010, 04:36 PM
They tried to make the race they just didnt have enough time. They are doing the right thing. Get her right and then meet Zen down the road if need be.

Charlie D
03-14-2010, 04:36 PM
They tried to make the race they just didnt have enough time. They are doing the right thing. Get her right and then meet Zen down the road if need be.


A sensible post in my humble opinion.

Irish Boy
03-14-2010, 04:38 PM
If three months isn't enough time, what is?

Dahoss9698
03-14-2010, 04:40 PM
They're horses. You get them ready for the big occasions. You don't get to choose what the big occasions are. Something went wrong here. I certainly wouldn't want to be called Todd today.

The Apple Blossom became a big occasion about a month ago. Good job ducking the questions. True to form.

It's a long season. I think Rachel's done anyway. I hope I'm wrong. And if I am, I'd like to see both horses race through the year. Instead of seeing one rush to make a race she isn't ready for.

Dahoss9698
03-14-2010, 04:41 PM
If three months isn't enough time, what is?

There isn't a set time. They are horses, not machines.

tzipi
03-14-2010, 04:43 PM
Good thing we can be absolutely 100 certain they'll both be racing in October then, right?

As for yesterday, I don't think RA losing proves she's overrated or anything like that. I do think pulling out of the Apple Blossom proves that her connections won't run against Zenyatta unless every possible variable favors her. Zenyatta's camp tried to meet them halfway. That's still apparantly not enough.

It was a rush job and fans wanted it so it happened. They are not machines. Oh well it's only March and first races off a long layoff. If both horses are in shape and healthy they should def be running against eachother before BC :ThmbUp: Yes, if all well someone better not duck the BC. Whoever it is, I'll be mad. Healthy and rested horses should be in the top race.

Charlie D
03-14-2010, 04:44 PM
There isn't a set time. They are horses, not machines.



Another sensible post.

PaceAdvantage
03-14-2010, 04:46 PM
But rushing to make a race, at the expense of the rest of the season does no one any good. It's amazing to me this concept is lost on so many people.I hope these aren't some of the same people who were huddled up all frightened in the corner over the prospect of Jess Jackson "risking Rachel's life" by running her in the Preakness last year....

gm10
03-14-2010, 04:50 PM
The Apple Blossom became a big occasion about a month ago. Good job ducking the questions. True to form.

It's a long season. I think Rachel's done anyway. I hope I'm wrong. And if I am, I'd like to see both horses race through the year. Instead of seeing one rush to make a race she isn't ready for.

Yes you are wrong, true to form. She's not done.
But if you can't get a horse ready for a stakes race in mid-March that is carded especially for you as a stepping stone to the biggest showdown of the century so far, you've got a problem. Especially when you get beaten by an unknown horse that only has form on what JJ affectionately calls plastic. And your question was rhetoric to me. Of course I wouldn't run her. Dick Cheney might if it increased his profit margins by 0.1%, but nobody else would.

KingChas
03-14-2010, 04:53 PM
Panic abounds!
Perhaps RA didn't take to the FG surface?
Wouldn't be the 1st horse.
On the other hand Zenyatta has not had to worry about that issue in quite some time. ;)

Dahoss9698
03-14-2010, 04:55 PM
Yes you are wrong, true to form. She's not done.
But if you can't get a horse ready for a stakes race in mid-March that is carded especially for you as a stepping stone to the biggest showdown of the century so far, you've got a problem. Especially when you get beaten by an unknown horse that only has form on what JJ affectionately calls plastic. And your question was rhetoric to me. Of course I wouldn't run her. Dick Cheney might if it increased his profit margins by 0.1%, but nobody else would.

So, she's not done, but there is a problem. Makes sense. Stick to being a Godolphin sycophant. It suits you better.

Mineshaft
03-14-2010, 05:04 PM
If three months isn't enough time, what is?




She needs at least 3 more races before she can take on Zen. Steve will let you know when that is.

Mineshaft
03-14-2010, 05:05 PM
I hope these aren't some of the same people who were huddled up all frightened in the corner over the prospect of Jess Jackson "risking Rachel's life" by running her in the Preakness last year....






Running in the Preakness when she was in peak form and coming off a 8 month layoff is 2 different animals.

dartman51
03-14-2010, 05:20 PM
Owner says Rachel won't race Zenyatta (AP) (http://sports.yahoo.com/rah/news?slug=ap-rachelvszenyatta&prov=ap&type=lgns)

The $5 million race between leading ladies Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta is off. Rachel Alexandra's owner, Jess Jackson, said Sunday that his Horse of the Year is not in top form after her defeat in the New Orleans Ladies at the Fair Grounds. So the highly anticipated showdown between racing's top stars will not occur April 9 in the Apple Blossom Invitational at Oaklawn Park.

Kimsus
03-14-2010, 05:21 PM
If you owned Rachel and you thought she wasn't ready, would you run her? Or better yet, if you owned Zenyatta and you didn't feel she was ready, would you run her?

These horses don't owe us anything. If they get together great. But rushing to make a race, at the expense of the rest of the season does no one any good. It's amazing to me this concept is lost on so many people.

You aren't dissapointed, there are no guarantees in racing, plus this was a prep. Who is to say she wouldn't have moved fwd from this race, it happens all the time in this game. She has 1 month to fine tune, I am really curious how people continue to give these connections a free pass, when Asmussen says "if I knew she wasn't going to win I wouldn't have ran her" Stuff. Same thing when she selectively picks The Woodward over the Travers, yeah I know the historical significance reason sorry if I find that hard to believe in light of the mounting evidence and decidely skipping the BC because she was tired when we know well they were not confident they were going to win. I wonder if this will be the action or non action that will start many to question these connections. Better late than never I suppose than to continue to lap up their excuses I say.

KingChas
03-14-2010, 05:33 PM
, I am really curious how people continue to give these connections a free pass, . Better late than never I suppose than to continue to lap up their excuses I say.

With all due respect,until the other connections decide to leave home.
We cannot crown a "Homie" a champ.
We have seen this before with recent California so-called champs also.

cj
03-14-2010, 05:48 PM
Beyers?

You gotta be kidding me right?

Rachel's effort was right there with her best. In lieu of a matchup you were having trouble with anyway, we're gonna go on the record in a meaningful race Mr. CJ. Mano a Mano. Lets make it the Kentucky Derby. Don't do an Aflac on us. You use whatever you're using and I'll use whatever I'm using. We'll work out the details after the final preps.

Willy

You didn't answer the question. Be it TG or Rags or Beyer or whatever, nobody in their right mind would have RA's effort yesterday on par with what she did as a 3yo. So, what are you using to equate the two?

As of your request, I've never been one not to post my opinion before a big race.

cj
03-14-2010, 05:50 PM
They're horses. You get them ready for the big occasions. You don't get to choose what the big occasions are. Something went wrong here. I certainly wouldn't want to be called Todd today.

Hilarious! The "big occasion" wasn't announced until a few weeks ago. How do you prepare for a mythical race?

Kimsus
03-14-2010, 05:52 PM
With all due respect,until the other connections decide to leave home.
We cannot crown a "Homie" a champ.
We have seen this before with recent California so-called champs also.

Well this is all fine and dandy I suppose, but that is why we had all this lead up and accomodation for Princess Rachel so they can meet in the Apple Blossom. Zenyatta would have travelled and met her there where all parties agreed to, she lost a prep to a gr.2 winning mare by .75 lengths. It happens all the time in racing, but apparently they are scared to meet Zardana again I guess.

Dahoss9698
03-14-2010, 05:52 PM
You aren't dissapointed, there are no guarantees in racing, plus this was a prep. Who is to say she wouldn't have moved fwd from this race, it happens all the time in this game. She has 1 month to fine tune, I am really curious how people continue to give these connections a free pass, when Asmussen says "if I knew she wasn't going to win I wouldn't have ran her" Stuff. Same thing when she selectively picks The Woodward over the Travers, yeah I know the historical significance reason sorry if I find that hard to believe in light of the mounting evidence and decidely skipping the BC because she was tired when we know well they were not confident they were going to win. I wonder if this will be the action or non action that will start many to question these connections. Better late than never I suppose than to continue to lap up their excuses I say.

Look CSC, I am disappointed. I said so yesterday. But I've followed the game long enough to know it's a very disappointing game. No one is giving anyone a free pass.

I am taking Team RA at their word that she will probably not be ready. Connections selectively pick races that best suit their horse. Welcome to horse racing in 2010. Zenyatta has been pretty selectively placed hasn't she? Where's your outrage?

I mean, Life Is Sweet just got retired after tying up. It's March, I'm sure she probably could have gotten better and made some more starts this year. Where's your outrage? Oh I get it. Only Jess Jackson gets criticized for doing best by his horse. How convenient.

We can't make the race happen. Cella tried and it was a noble effort, but it looks like it came up too soon. If they meet up great. If not, racing will go on. Just like this debate will. You won't change anyone's mind and no one is changing your mind. I've been reading you slight Rachel for 10 months now. Doesn't it get old after a while?

KingChas
03-14-2010, 05:57 PM
Well this is all fine and dandy I suppose, . It happens all the time in racing, but apparently they are scared to meet Zardana again I guess.

Can Zenyatta beat Zardana?

Off the plastic?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

gm10
03-14-2010, 06:02 PM
Hilarious! The "big occasion" wasn't announced until a few weeks ago. How do you prepare for a mythical race?

The race is on April 9 for crying out loud! It's a racehorse - who had run three times by April 9, 2009! They accepted the challenge! What are you on about? How can this suddenly not be a big occasion? Just like the Breeders Cup Classic wasn't, of course!

cj
03-14-2010, 06:04 PM
All I'm saying is they tried to be ready for two races that were not originally planned. If you tell me I have a marathon to run in July, I can start training now and be ready. If suddenly it is scheduled for next month, no shot. They tried, she isn't ready. Life goes on.

gm10
03-14-2010, 06:07 PM
All I'm saying is they tried to be ready for two races that were not originally planned. If you tell me I have a marathon to run in July, I can start training now and be ready. If suddenly it is scheduled for next month, no shot. They tried, she isn't ready. Life goes on.

To suddenly deny it wasn't a big occasion is as lame as it gets. Even JJ would agree to that.

"We are delighted that the race is on for April 9 and want to especially thank Charles Cella and Oaklawn for moving the date," Jackson said Thursday in a statement."

http://www.kentucky.com/2010/02/12/1135498/race-between-zenyatta-and-rachel.html

Relwob Owner
03-14-2010, 06:11 PM
Man this really shows you people have NO clue or grasp of horse racing. The horse just lost a comeback race(like all champions have) and it's only March. The start of the season.
HOY was for last year not this year. :rolleyes:


Isnt it true that the last NINE horses of the year have WON their first race back?????? If so, what would be your counter to that?

Dahoss9698
03-14-2010, 06:11 PM
To suddenly deny it wasn't a big occasion is as lame as it gets. Even JJ would agree to that.

"We are delighted that the race is on for April 9 and want to especially thank Charles Cella and Oaklawn for moving the date," Jackson said Thursday in a statement."

http://www.kentucky.com/2010/02/12/1135498/race-between-zenyatta-and-rachel.html

You're a special kind of dense. They don't think the horse is ready. That's it. It became a big occasion because of the purse. That happened a month ago. Things change daily in this sport. Without Rachel it's no longer a big occasion.

breezing
03-14-2010, 06:13 PM
I mean, Life Is Sweet just got retired after tying up. It's March, I'm sure she probably could have gotten better and made some more starts this year.
just want to clear something up about LIS - she has a history of tying up. as much as i love her i'm glad they retired her, i wish they would have done it when she tied up the time before this.

cj
03-14-2010, 06:14 PM
To suddenly deny it wasn't a big occasion is as lame as it gets. Even JJ would agree to that.

"We are delighted that the race is on for April 9 and want to especially thank Charles Cella and Oaklawn for moving the date," Jackson said Thursday in a statement."

http://www.kentucky.com/2010/02/12/1135498/race-between-zenyatta-and-rachel.html

I didn't say it wasn't a big occasion. I said they tried to get ready once it was announced it was a big occasion, and she couldn't.

cj
03-14-2010, 06:15 PM
Isnt it true that the last NINE horses of the year have WON their first race back?????? If so, what would be your counter to that?

How many of the last 9 horses of the year didn't race for over 6 months?

toetoe
03-14-2010, 06:16 PM
If she's not injured, RA should run. Lately, people value streaks and perception over just going out and performing.

Again, if she injured or in danger of incurring injury, sit her down. Otherwise ... Riders up !!!

KingChas
03-14-2010, 06:19 PM
Off the plastic?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Being a fan of horseracing, I love Zenyatta.
Not sitting on the fence.
Show me.
3 grade I races on the dirt,three different tracks.
Midwest, East Coast,....Whatever, must be Dirt.
And I will drop the "Homie" label and not consider her another Lava Man.
But one, if not the greatest filly ever. ;)

PS;As I have posted before Ruffian would have kicked both their asses. :D

Dahoss9698
03-14-2010, 06:20 PM
just want to clear something up about LIS - she has a history of tying up. as much as i love her i'm glad they retired her, i wish they would have done it when she tied up the time before this.

I don't disagree. My point is they did what they felt was best for her. Just like Jess Jackson is doing now.

KingChas
03-14-2010, 06:30 PM
If she's not injured, RA should run. Lately, people value streaks and perception over just going out and performing.

Again, if she injured or in danger of incurring injury, sit her down. Otherwise ... Riders up !!!

Why ToeToe?
The longer the wait the more the............$$.................$10m.

netbet
03-14-2010, 06:31 PM
At least one person has a level head about everything going on.

I happen to be a fan of both Zenyatta and RA. We are blessed to be able to see such wonderful horses.

Man this really shows you people have NO clue or grasp of horse racing. The horse just lost a comeback race(like all champions have) and it's only March. The start of the season.
HOY was for last year not this year. :rolleyes:

Relwob Owner
03-14-2010, 06:32 PM
How many of the last 9 horses of the year didn't race for over 6 months?


Fair point.....the average was abt 3-4 months, with Sunday Silence and Ghostzapper being the closest to the length of RA's break.....I guess I would counter with the quality of race coming back, which can be argued to be tougher for the 9 I pointed out than the group RA faced yesterday....

Charlie D
03-14-2010, 06:41 PM
. We are blessed to be able to see such wonderful horses.


You are of course correct. Lets hope the connections of RA get her ready and we can enjoy watching her perform again in 2010.

gm10
03-14-2010, 06:56 PM
I didn't say it wasn't a big occasion. I said they tried to get ready once it was announced it was a big occasion, and she couldn't.

It became a big occasion the moment they accepted the challenge. No way would they have made that decision if they didn't think she'd be ready by then.

This is the second time that they duck out. Just waiting until your horse is 100% fit and sound, and the surface and distance are your horse's favourite isn't the way to go if you want to earn the label 'greatness'. You've got to be there on the big days, you can't just call a day big afterwards because you were there. This is mainly aimed at owner and trainer btw. RA is fabulous but she can't be expected to jog to the Oaklawn or Santa Anita starting gate by herself.

BluegrassProf
03-14-2010, 07:14 PM
Just waiting until your horse is 100% fit and sound, and the surface and distance are your horse's favourite isn't the way to go if you want to earn the label 'greatness'.Wanted: Giant machete to cut through several feet of irony. Please send sales requests to shakinghishead@yourpost.com.

Ya'll sure are a fun bunch. :D

Relwob Owner
03-14-2010, 07:18 PM
It became a big occasion the moment they accepted the challenge. No way would they have made that decision if they didn't think she'd be ready by then.

This is the second time that they duck out. Just waiting until your horse is 100% fit and sound, and the surface and distance are your horse's favourite isn't the way to go if you want to earn the label 'greatness'. You've got to be there on the big days, you can't just call a day big afterwards because you were there. This is mainly aimed at owner and trainer btw. RA is fabulous but she can't be expected to jog to the Oaklawn or Santa Anita starting gate by herself.



Question....when accepting the AB invitation, did the Z or RA camps either put a caveat on it, saying they will run as long as they come out of their preps OK? Th words from the RA camp today are pretty vague and definitely give one the feel of a kind of backtracking a bit....

Show Me the Wire
03-14-2010, 07:27 PM
Apparently not Relwob Owner . Jess' statement today said Rachel is healthy just as he anticipated, based on his statement she would have to run, using your hypothetical question about a stipulation in that regard.

But what the hell is he talking about. Why would Jess anticipate anything else, but a healthy horse? After all she was supposedly healthy going into the works and the race. In any context his statement makes no sense.

Relwob Owner
03-14-2010, 07:34 PM
Apparently not Relwob Owner . Jess' statement today said Rachel is healthy just as he anticipated, based on his statement she would have to run, using your hypothetical question about a stipulation in that regard.

But what the hell is he talking about. Why would Jess anticipate anything else, but a healthy horse? After all she was supposedly healthy going into the works and the race. In any context his statement makes no sense.



I didnt think so which really makes passing on the race seem like a questionable move. I am all for doing whats right by the horse but if they made no caveat before and dont know of any health issues, it feels like ducking....I guess we need to stay focused on the positive in that at least we have these two to talk about in March and that apparently, RA didnt come back with any issues....

Show Me the Wire
03-14-2010, 07:37 PM
I didnt think so which really makes passing on the race seem like a questionable move. I am all for doing whats right by the horse but if they made no caveat before and dont know of any health issues, it feels like ducking....I guess we need to stay focused on the positive in that at least we have these two to talk about in March and that apparently, RA didnt come back with any issues....


I don't think she is ducking. I say the connections are not exactly being truthful. The word healthy does not necessarily mean she is healthy enough to continue racing at this time.

tzipi
03-14-2010, 07:43 PM
I don't think she is ducking. I say the connections are not exactly being truthful. The word healthy does not necessarily mean she is healthy enough to continue racing at this time.

She's healthy just not in top shape yet. Some of these people would never scream at athletes who are healthy but not in top shape early in spring training? It's mid March and that AB is early April. It's so early in the year. They got ALL year to run races together. Some people today were screaming the season is over. Haha mid march and because no AB, the season is all over and RA vs ZEN is done. Wow

Show Me the Wire
03-14-2010, 07:47 PM
tzipi:

Feel free to believe want you want to believe.

Willy Wonka
03-14-2010, 07:48 PM
If she's not injured, RA should run. Lately, people value streaks and perception over just going out and performing.

Again, if she injured or in danger of incurring injury, sit her down. Otherwise ... Riders up !!!

Theres no streak for Rachel Alexandra to protect now.

Before the race Assmussen was telling everyone Rachel wasn't fully cranked. If that were the case there would be little reason to panic after a close hard fought loss. You would think the race would set Rachel up perfectly if she was 80% fit as Assmussen stated.

The reality is that Rachel is a layoff runner and she ran her eyeballs out in a top performance yet got beat my Shirriff's "Wet your thumb and hold it in the air to test the wind" horse.

The amazing thing is all the debate.

Classic Duck, Gave Ovah

Willy

Relwob Owner
03-14-2010, 07:55 PM
She's healthy just not in top shape yet. Some of these people would never scream at athletes who are healthy but not in top shape early in spring training? It's mid March and that AB is early April. It's so early in the year. They got ALL year to run races together. Some people today were screaming the season is over. Haha mid march and because no AB, the season is all over and RA vs ZEN is done. Wow


Right, but in your analogy, the two best baseball owners agreed to have the World Series right after spring training.....that seems to be the issue...

I have always wondered why people gave Jess J so much crap....he did have the balls to buy Rachel and run her in spots few else would have last year.....however, one could argue that he has hurt Rachel in this instance.....I always got the feeling Steve A didnt want to get near the AB and JJ pushed for it....one could argue that she was indeed rushed back and that h ecaused it....

tzipi
03-14-2010, 08:04 PM
Right, but in your analogy, the two best baseball owners agreed to have the World Series right after spring training.....that seems to be the issue...

I have always wondered why people gave Jess J so much crap....he did have the balls to buy Rachel and run her in spots few else would have last year.....however, one could argue that he has hurt Rachel in this instance.....I always got the feeling Steve A didnt want to get near the AB and JJ pushed for it....one could argue that she was indeed rushed back and that h ecaused it....

I'd say the WS is in Oct/Nov at the BC Dirt Classic, not a early April race at the beginning of the season. JMO. Hopefully they race 1 or 2 times before a BC showdown.
I agree JJ did put her in spots no 3yo fillys runs in this sport and yeah you're probably right it was just to early and Steve A probably would've liked to have taken his time. But we got all season and I'm looking forward to the next 7 months of racing. :ThmbUp:

Relwob Owner
03-14-2010, 08:07 PM
I'd say the WS is in Oct/Nov at the BC Dirt Classic, not a early April race at the beginning of the season. JMO. Hopefully they race 1 or 2 times before a BC showdown.
I agree JJ did put her in spots no 3yo fillys runs in this sport and yeah you're probably right it was just to early and Steve A probably would've liked to have taken his time. But we got all season and I'm looking forward to the next 7 months of racing. :ThmbUp:


Couldnt agree more....I just hope that the "healthy" that the RA camp is using to describe her is the same sort that we all hope for.....

Robert Goren
03-14-2010, 08:11 PM
The RA bashers have been saying along that she would find some excuse to back out. It looks they were right. I saw last night all sorts of posts of how this race was just a prep and didn't mean anything. I saw posts about RA's race was really better than Z. I even saw one post saying that RA at 80% was better than Z. Well the news is not good for the RA fans. She is just not as good as she was last year. I have seen this before. A lot of times horses lose something when they turn 4. One of great things about Z is that she just didn't have one good year. She is 6 and still unbeaten and still winning grade 1s. RA is a filly who got really hot last summer. She yet to prove that she more than a one year wonder.

Hanover1
03-14-2010, 08:15 PM
I agree with this. It's not an easy situation for RA's connections but they are running out of excuses. What exactly are they waiting for? A 5 million dollar dirt mile with only Zenyatta and Macho Again in the other stalls?
Perhaps they are waiting on the mare to become fit? :bang:

Kimsus
03-14-2010, 08:15 PM
I'd say the WS is in Oct/Nov at the BC Dirt Classic, not a early April race at the beginning of the season. JMO. Hopefully they race 1 or 2 times before a BC showdown.
I agree JJ did put her in spots no 3yo fillys runs in this sport and yeah you're probably right it was just to early and Steve A probably would've liked to have taken his time. But we got all season and I'm looking forward to the next 7 months of racing. :ThmbUp:

tzipi, Don't be surprised if we never see her on the track again. The chance of her retiring is not very far fetched. They won't race her unless she is near last year's level and one can guess that she will never regain that form again.

tzipi
03-14-2010, 08:21 PM
tzipi, Don't be surprised if we never see her on the track again. The chance of her retiring is not very far fetched. They won't race her unless she is near last year's level and one can guess that she will never regain that form again.

Well as I said to another poster Affirmed lost his first two races back and then went on to win the rest of the way and defeated Spectacular Bid. Tons of horses lost races. Thank God they didn't retire him like players want today. :)
RA ran a 100 beyer finishing 2nd off a 6 month layoff. That's horrible and time to retire?? RA has already lost of a layoff before.

Hanover1
03-14-2010, 08:22 PM
The RA bashers have been saying along that she would find some excuse to back out. It looks they were right. I saw last night all sorts of posts of how this race was just a prep and didn't mean anything. I saw posts about RA's race was really better than Z. I even saw one post saying that RA at 80% was better than Z. Well the news is not good for the RA fans. She is just not as good as she was last year. I have seen this before. A lot of times horses lose something when they turn 4. One of great things about Z is that she just didn't have one good year. She is 6 and still unbeaten and still winning grade 1s. RA is a filly who got really hot last summer. She yet to prove that she more than a one year wonder.
Not in line with the excuses theories, however your statement about not returning to form is a common one amongst precocious 2-3yr olds of both sexes. I had a colt make just over 800k as a 2yr old, and despite returning sound the following year, he just was not the same. To this day all connections agree that there was no apparent reason, other than perhaps the rest of the crop matured racewise and he was done developing speedwise as a 2yr old. Inexplicable, but true......some just don't make it back. We are still in an early developing story with this mare however....

Indulto
03-14-2010, 08:27 PM
I don't think she is ducking. I say the connections are not exactly being truthful. The word healthy does not necessarily mean she is healthy enough to continue racing at this time.Now I'm wondering if she came out of the Woodward in perfect shape last year. Fighting off challengers at each stage of the race had to have taken a lot out of her, do I wasn't surprised they gave her as much tiime off as they did.

Her peerformance in that race supports Borrel's contention that he would have preferred to have been allowed to let her go at her own pce and not tried to tack the other early speeed as he had been instructed to. Nor will I be surprised if that was Borel's last ride on her since they now have an excusde to get rid of him.

To those who trhink Zentyatta was cheated out of a $5 M opportunity, there's stiil $10 M waiting for them in Dubai if they have the nerve.

horses4courses
03-14-2010, 08:30 PM
The RA bashers have been saying along that she would find some excuse to back out. It looks they were right. I saw last night all sorts of posts of how this race was just a prep and didn't mean anything. I saw posts about RA's race was really better than Z. I even saw one post saying that RA at 80% was better than Z. Well the news is not good for the RA fans. She is just not as good as she was last year. I have seen this before. A lot of times horses lose something when they turn 4. One of great things about Z is that she just didn't have one good year. She is 6 and still unbeaten and still winning grade 1s. RA is a filly who got really hot last summer. She yet to prove that she more than a one year wonder.

Very true.
When you get a horse wound up as tight as RA was last year, there is no guarantee that form cycle can be repeated after a layoff. We shall see.
It would be great if she gets back to her best.

Z, on the other hand, just keeps doing her thing and winning, year after year.
She may have not beaten the greatest horses in every victory, but she has faced some stern tests, one of them in a legitimate G1 on dirt at OP.
I didn't think things set up well for her in the BC Classic - she proved me wrong.

No matter how you look at it, Z has to be admired.

tzipi
03-14-2010, 08:32 PM
No matter how you look at it, Z has to be admired.
I'd like to see her on dirt more facing some of the good ones around and doing her thing but TOTALLY agree she is something else :ThmbUp:

horses4courses
03-14-2010, 08:35 PM
Now I'm wondering if she came out of the Woodward in perfect shape last year. Fighting off challengers at each stage of the race had to have taken a lot out of her, do I wasn't surprised they gave her as much tiime off as they did.

Her peerformance in that race supports Borrel's contention that he would have preferred to have been allowed to let her go at her own pce and not tried to tack the other early speeed as he had been instructed to. Nor will I be surprised if that was Borel's last ride on her since they now have an excusde to get rid of him.

To those who trhink Zentyatta was cheated out of a $5 M opportunity, there's stiil $10 M waiting for them in Dubai if they have the nerve.

A trip to Dubai for Zenyatta would be insane. It's way too short a rest.

Even if things went well up to the race, which she would likely win, the journey is taxing physically, and it would throw a wrench in her US season.

The Mosses and Shireffs aren't that greedy.

Dahoss9698
03-14-2010, 08:40 PM
A trip to Dubai for Zenyatta would be insane. It's way too short a rest.

Even if things went well up to the race, which she would likely win, the journey is taxing physically, and it would throw a wrench in her US season.

The Mosses and Shireffs aren't that greedy.

Interesting post. So you are against Zenyatta rushing because it would jeopardize the rest of her season. I agree.

By that line of thinking would it be wise to rush Rachel Alexandra to a race that might jeopardize the rest of her season?

tzipi
03-14-2010, 08:42 PM
Interesting post. So you are against Zenyatta rushing because it would jeopardize the rest of her season. I agree.

But that line of thinking would it be wise to rush Rachel Alexandra to a race that might jeopardize the rest of her season?

:ThmbUp:

Show Me the Wire
03-14-2010, 08:42 PM
Now I'm wondering if she came out of the Woodward in perfect shape last year. Fighting off challengers at each stage of the race had to have taken a lot out of her, do I wasn't surprised they gave her as much tiime off as they did.

Her peerformance in that race supports Borrel's contention that he would have preferred to have been allowed to let her go at her own pce and not tried to tack the other early speeed as he had been instructed to. Nor will I be surprised if that was Borel's last ride on her since they now have an excusde to get rid of him.

To those who trhink Zentyatta was cheated out of a $5 M opportunity, there's stiil $10 M waiting for them in Dubai if they have the nerve.

Legitimate posting.

cpitt84
03-14-2010, 08:44 PM
Zen has to face males on dirt and win to be considered one of the greatest. i hope her owners put her in that direction before retirement.

tzipi
03-14-2010, 08:50 PM
Zen has to face males on dirt and win to be considered one of the greatest. i hope her owners put her in that direction before retirement.

I agree. This horse is special, no doubt. Even though I do not like synthetics and its a closing surface she has won on dirt, so she can run on it. Start tackling the top horses on dirt and she goes from great in the games eyes to one of the greatest ever.
Don't pass it up Moss or be scared, you only get these horses once in a lifetime if you're lucky :ThmbUp:

cpitt84
03-14-2010, 08:55 PM
I agree. This horse is special, no doubt. Even though I do not like synthetics and its a closing surface she has won on dirt, so she can run on it. Start tackling the top horses on dirt and she goes from great in the games eyes to one of the greatest ever.
Don't pass it up Moss or be scared, you only get these horses once in a lifetime if you're lucky :ThmbUp:

If zen beat the boys at the classic, why race against females? It just seems like he's staying in his comfort zone..knowing he will most likely win against mares.

Shes as big and fast as the boys, why not? :)

tzipi
03-14-2010, 09:00 PM
If zen beat the boys at the classic, why race against females? It just seems like he's staying in his comfort zone..knowing he will most likely win against mares.

Shes as big and fast as the boys, why not? :)

I agree, she can beat boys so please don't stay in California racing against girls. It takes away from greatness in most peoples eyes. She's special,yes but most people know she can't just be going against overmatched girls on synthetics 90% of the time.
It's frustrating because these horses are special. Don't waste it.

horses4courses
03-14-2010, 09:03 PM
I agree, she can beat boys so please don't stay in California racing against girls. It takes away from greatness in most peoples eyes. She's special,yes but most people know she can't just be going against overmatched girls on synthetics 90% of the time.
It's frustrating because these horses are special. Don't waste it.

Geez Louise.......

You think her coming out of retirement prep should have been the Big Cap?

Gimme a break......

Kimsus
03-14-2010, 09:05 PM
Well as I said to another poster Affirmed lost his first two races back and then went on to win the rest of the way and defeated Spectacular Bid. Tons of horses lost races. Thank God they didn't retire him like players want today. :)
RA ran a 100 beyer finishing 2nd off a 6 month layoff. That's horrible and time to retire?? RA has already lost of a layoff before.

I don't put as much stock into beyers as most, I don't think anyone will be looking at her race yesterday and can come away saying that was encouraging. From my experience when fillies go sour they rarely get their forms back, I guess it is hard to imagine her showing up at CD or further on in the yr at the Spa running lights out. We will see, I certainly hope I am wrong, however I have to listen to what the connections have said. "she will tell us when she is ready", what happens if that day doesn't come? From what I have seen from these connections, they would rather preserve a horse's reputation rather than further tarnishing it. I wouldn't be surprised if yesterday will be one of her last races we see her run. In racing today it is what it is.

horses4courses
03-14-2010, 09:07 PM
Interesting post. So you are against Zenyatta rushing because it would jeopardize the rest of her season. I agree.

By that line of thinking would it be wise to rush Rachel Alexandra to a race that might jeopardize the rest of her season?

Jackson, Asmussem, et al, are doing what is right for their horse.
She had them fooled a little bit going into Saturday's race.
I am certain they felt she was further along than things turned out.
Rushing her along for the Apple Blossom makes no sense at all.

46zilzal
03-14-2010, 09:08 PM
didn't the Blood Horse already carry the story that the April 9th meeting is off....Methinks we have exactly the situation between Biscuit's and War Admiral's connections going here, and they are from the same sides of the coast as the former adversaries too.

tzipi
03-14-2010, 09:14 PM
I don't put as much stock into beyers as most, I don't think anyone will be looking at her race yesterday and can come away saying that was encouraging. From my experience when fillies go sour they rarely get their forms back, I guess it is hard to imagine her showing up at CD or further on in the yr at the Spa running lights out. We will see, I certainly hope I am wrong, however I have to listen to what the connections have said. "she will tell us when she is ready", what happens if that day doesn't come? From what I have seen from these connections, they would rather preserve a horse's reputation rather than further tarnishing it. I wouldn't be surprised if yesterday will be one of her last races we see her run. In racing today it is what it is.

Kimsus if she throws out clunkers coming up,I'll surely be with you but off just one 2nd place finish off a 6 month layoff, I'm still feeling positive :ThmbUp:

horses4courses
03-14-2010, 09:19 PM
didn't the Blood Horse already carry the story that the April 9th meeting is off....Methinks we have exactly the situation between Biscuit's and War Admiral's connections going here, and they are from the same sides of the coast as the former adversaries too.

It's off alright.....

I opened a thread yesterday called "East versus West thing"....the Biscuit/War Admiral parallel isn't far fetched.

However, rather than pinning the Right/Left coast biases on the connections of both mares, I think that some of their respective supporters have brought those old wounds back to fester some more. Z does have some east coast support, but those people are few and far between.

strapper
03-14-2010, 09:21 PM
All of this just goes to show you how difficult it is for all the ingredients of a great race to come together. Every trainer has to put the horse first, then you make the plans accordingly to how the horse is training. It was a sporting gesture for the RA camp to agree even though they weren't prepared to crank their HOTY just yet. I hope Zenyatta still comes to Hot Springs - she'll draw the people to satisfy management even without Rachel around. As for Sheriffs N.O. Ladies winner, if she's already close by, why not run her too? The two Z's should run 1-2!

Kimsus
03-14-2010, 09:24 PM
Kimsus if she throws out clunkers coming up,I'll surely be with you but off just one 2nd place finish off a 6 month layoff, I'm still feeling positive :ThmbUp:

Yep, you know what struck me was she was so one paced yesterday, if she had blazed out to the lead or made an impressive premature move but got caught due to fitness I would be more positive. Time will tell, however I think alot of people are misreading it as to just a fitness issue. There could be more here than meets the eye, some horses just don't progress from 3-4 or maybe she just left it on the track after the Woodward. We will see.

tzipi
03-14-2010, 09:32 PM
Yep, you know what struck me was she was so one paced yesterday, if she had blazed out to the lead or made an impressive premature move but got caught due to fitness I would be more positive. Time will tell, however I think alot of people are misreading it as to just a fitness issue. There could be more here than meets the eye, some horses just don't progress from 3-4 or maybe she just left it on the track after the Woodward. We will see.

Oh I agree I can't be certain she's the same and you're right about 3 to 4 but I can't say I know for sure she's not either. It's just one race off a layoff. She's lost before off a layoff. Alot of top horses have done this. I guess time will tell or I should say the next race will be a great tell. I'm just staying positive for now.

PaceAdvantage
03-14-2010, 09:34 PM
Methinks we have exactly the situation between Biscuit's and War Admiral's connections going here, and they are from the same sides of the coast as the former adversaries too.They are? Both Jackson and Moss live in California, do they not? And I don't think you can label Rachel an "East Coast" horse, can you?

horses4courses
03-14-2010, 09:37 PM
They are? Both Jackson and Moss live in California, do they not? And I don't think you can label Rachel an "East Coast" horse, can you?

The "Dirt versus Synthetic" also brings out geographical loyalties.
Of course, synthetic tracks are hated by west coasters, but you can't find many people living east of the Mississippi who will defend them, save Michael Dickenson.

Jasonm921
03-14-2010, 10:50 PM
She was never in retirement...she was breezing all along.

Indulto
03-15-2010, 12:48 AM
A trip to Dubai for Zenyatta would be insane. It's way too short a rest.

Even if things went well up to the race, which she would likely win, the journey is taxing physically, and it would throw a wrench in her US season.

The Mosses and Shireffs aren't that greedy.H4C,
I'm sure it's not a matter of money for her connections, but a way to ensure HOTY for her this year. Zenyatta was sired by Street Cry. Mightn't the Sheikh be willing to push the World Cup back a week or two just like OP did for a future consideration of a meeting with one of his stallions? ;)

Kimsus
03-15-2010, 09:44 AM
Look CSC, I am disappointed. I said so yesterday. But I've followed the game long enough to know it's a very disappointing game. No one is giving anyone a free pass.

I am taking Team RA at their word that she will probably not be ready. Connections selectively pick races that best suit their horse. Welcome to horse racing in 2010. Zenyatta has been pretty selectively placed hasn't she? Where's your outrage?

I mean, Life Is Sweet just got retired after tying up. It's March, I'm sure she probably could have gotten better and made some more starts this year. Where's your outrage? Oh I get it. Only Jess Jackson gets criticized for doing best by his horse. How convenient.

We can't make the race happen. Cella tried and it was a noble effort, but it looks like it came up too soon. If they meet up great. If not, racing will go on. Just like this debate will. You won't change anyone's mind and no one is changing your mind. I've been reading you slight Rachel for 10 months now. Doesn't it get old after a while?

I’m not going to try to change your mind Dahoss because I know your position on this by now, however don’t these connections excuses get tiring? The horse runs a prep, beyers 100 while finishing 2nd to a respectable gr. 2 mare to set her up for a race in 4 weeks? Now I know she didn’t look as good as many thought she would have, but one would think this would be a good set up race for her. Barring her being injured how does one know for sure a horse is not going to be ready in a month’s time this soon after the race? The point is this race was written for her and Zenyatta, both parties agreed to the time schedule, you say you are not giving free pass. Okay I’ll take your word on that. But from my vantage point, this is the same pattern of avoiding races from last year, when the connections do not feel like the race is a slam dunk. Sorry but that is their history the way I see it after the Preakness, in which I would term as the last time they truly took a chance.

In addition, what else is there to talk about right now? This is the story in horseracing, both horses have a huge following and both wanted it settled on the track or that is what we thought. This one has nothing to do with Zenyatta, as she is somehow brought into this conversation as a comparison, the point is she would have travelled and ran on dirt this time. She was ready to go, that is a certainty and that is all that counts in this particular case.

Grits
03-15-2010, 11:07 AM
But from my vantage point, this is the same pattern of avoiding races from last year, when the connections do not feel like the race is a slam dunk. Sorry but that is their history the way I see it after the Preakness, in which I would term as the last time they truly took a chance.

Your vantage point is an extremely poor one. The Haskell and the Woodward being "slam dunks." Come again . . . a three year old filly racing against colts. Three years old now and this is a slam dunk to her connections?

She was ready to go, that is a certainty and that is all that counts in this particular case.

In complete fairness to both mares and to their connections, you have conveniently left out quite a bit of "that is all that counts in this particular case."

Zenyatta, as we know had not been out of training for over 6 months. She never left the track, she wasn't stopped on her works by her trainer. Not so much as a hiccup occurred in her training program. So, one could anticipate her 2010 debut race with a successful win. She certainly didn't disappoint. She was amazing.

Also in fairness, and of note, is the age difference of a 4 year old versus a 6 year old.

Which has had the more difficult campaign in their racing careers thus far?

Which mare and her connections traveled all over the country taking on every horse that entered the gate against her, while the other's connections remained at home for how many years now--the last two? Save one run on the dirt at Oaklawn, and one scratch at Churchill when the track came up sloppy?

Whatever you hold yourself to--from your so called "vantage point"--is entirely self indulgent proclamation, and laughable. Instead, try speaking of each mare in a more fair and unbiased manner. Both are remarkable, and you do nothing to indicate this.

46zilzal
03-15-2010, 11:13 AM
They are? Both Jackson and Moss live in California, do they not? And I don't think you can label Rachel an "East Coast" horse, can you?
It is no different than comparing the Giants to the Yankees no matter where their OWNERS live, it is where the players campaign.

Kimsus
03-15-2010, 12:03 PM
Your vantage point is an extremely poor one. The Haskell and the Woodward being "slam dunks." Come again . . . a three year old filly racing against colts. Three years old now and this is a slam dunk to her connections?


In complete fairness to both mares and to their connections, you have conveniently left out quite a bit of "that is all that counts in this particular case."

Zenyatta, as we know had not been out of training for over 6 months. She never left the track, she wasn't stopped on her works by her trainer. Not so much as a hiccup occurred in her training program. So, one could anticipate her 2010 debut race with a successful win. She certainly didn't disappoint. She was amazing.

Also in fairness, and of note, is the age difference of a 4 year old versus a 6 year old.

Which has had the more difficult campaign in their racing careers thus far?

Which mare and her connections traveled all over the country taking on every horse that entered the gate against her, while the other's connections remained at home for how many years now--the last two? Save one run on the dirt at Oaklawn, and one scratch at Churchill when the track came up sloppy?

Whatever you hold yourself to--from your so called "vantage point"--is entirely self indulgent proclamation, and laughable. Instead, try speaking of each mare in a more fair and unbiased manner. Both are remarkable, and you do nothing to indicate this.

There's just too much nonsense in this post for me to reply to all your arguments that I already have explained on this forum before, so I am just going to concentrate on the bolded comments which I have heard often. What you assert as a challenge of the greatest sporting proportions to me is more than an obfuscation of the truth. Both were in very favorable conditions that suited her very well and the connections knew this going in, As for Zenyatta, what would you have done with her the last 2 years with the BC in So Cal, the point is she is scheduled to travel this year as long as she is healthy. Let's revisit this after this year, if she doesn't ship out of So cal, you can be sure I will be critical.

Grits
03-15-2010, 12:23 PM
Kimsus, your vantage point being so wise and firm from your perch and my being filled with so much nonsense . . . sorry, I should know your habits better by now. Why is no one ever surprised by your replies?

They're as predictable as your sense of fairness, and your consummate knowledge presenting itself as fact. You chastize others, with, "well, I just don't know where to begin, or how to respond to this."

Somehow, you manage, to again, impress. Still, forgive me, if I have far more confidence in long time New York Times sportswriter, Joe Drape.

Kimsus
03-15-2010, 12:39 PM
Kimsus, your vantage point being so wise and firm from your perch and my being filled with so much nonsense . . . sorry, I should know your habits better by now. Why is no one ever surprised by your replies?

They're as predictable as your sense of fairness, and your consummate knowledge presenting itself as fact. You chastize others, with, "well, I just don't know where to begin, or how to respond to this."

Somehow, you manage, to again, impress. Still, forgive me, if I have far more confidence in long time New York Times sportswriter, Joe Drape.

Grits, I have answsered those questions repeatedly so if anything I apologize if I offended you, however you levelled some heavy accusations regarding my opinions, I don't know what you expect me to say, thank you?

Furthermore on the topic at hand, do you not think Rachel or more accurately the connections of Rachel deserve some criticism for their part in leading the public on this fantasy ride? Rachel probably wants to run I'm not going to blame to the horse, she knows what she is bred for. If anything the connections reputations are the ones that should suffer here.

Maybe it's time to lock this thread.

FenceBored
03-15-2010, 12:43 PM
Grits, ... you levelled some heavy accusations regarding my opinions, I don't know what you expect me to say, thank you?


Honestly, yes. :lol:

PaceAdvantage
03-16-2010, 12:37 AM
Maybe it's time to lock this thread.That's a start.

delayjf
03-16-2010, 09:53 AM
To those who trhink Zentyatta was cheated out of a $5 M opportunity, there's stiil $10 M waiting for them in Dubai if they have the nerve.

I tend to agree, I can understand the prep before taking on RA in a 5 million dollar race, but now that RA is a no show, why run her for 500k when you can run her for 10 million on a surface and distance that's to her liking? Lots of time to rest once she gets home. It makes no sence to bring her out of retirement to run for thousands when you can run for millions.

Kimsus
03-16-2010, 09:55 AM
That's a start.

Call it a 1st, we agree. :ThmbUp:

gales0678
03-16-2010, 11:16 AM
I’m not going to try to change your mind Dahoss because I know your position on this by now, however don’t these connections excuses get tiring? The horse runs a prep, beyers 100 while finishing 2nd to a respectable gr. 2 mare to set her up for a race in 4 weeks? Now I know she didn’t look as good as many thought she would have, but one would think this would be a good set up race for her. Barring her being injured how does one know for sure a horse is not going to be ready in a month’s time this soon after the race? The point is this race was written for her and Zenyatta, both parties agreed to the time schedule, you say you are not giving free pass. Okay I’ll take your word on that. But from my vantage point, this is the same pattern of avoiding races from last year, when the connections do not feel like the race is a slam dunk. Sorry but that is their history the way I see it after the Preakness, in which I would term as the last time they truly took a chance.

In addition, what else is there to talk about right now? This is the story in horseracing, both horses have a huge following and both wanted it settled on the track or that is what we thought. This one has nothing to do with Zenyatta, as she is somehow brought into this conversation as a comparison, the point is she would have travelled and ran on dirt this time. She was ready to go, that is a certainty and that is all that counts in this particular case.

she was ready because she retired and just happened to keep working since the classic last oct ;) ;)