Wait a second Z DIDNT NEED ONE ! [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

tzipi

03-13-2010, 07:54 PM

All these posts stating RA needed a race..i agree she did..but the same wasnt being said before Z's comeback race..Z took care of business of the layoff ..and RA didnt..THATs the bottom line..

Yeah and Kelso lost almost all his comeback races. Was he overrated and bad? Some need it and some don't. It's racing and horses. Man, people are new to this.

DeanT

03-13-2010, 07:54 PM

Training or no training, the horse of the year voters got it wrong. A champion should not have lost that race.

Dahoss9698

03-13-2010, 07:57 PM

Training or no training, the horse of the year voters got it wrong. A champion should not have lost that race.

This is ridiculous.

cpitt84

03-13-2010, 07:58 PM

Training or no training, the horse of the year voters got it wrong. A champion should not have lost that race.

i agree. a horse that can beat males in three different races should have had this. first race or not.

tzipi

03-13-2010, 07:59 PM

Training or no training, the horse of the year voters got it wrong. A champion should not have lost that race.

WOW. I guess your opinion is Kelso wasn't a champion. He lost many of his comebacks and once in a ALLOWANCE race! Yup, you really know horses and champions :D

only11

03-13-2010, 08:00 PM

There were both coming back from long layoffs....my point is stop with the "she needed one excuse..." it was a 4 horse field she sat behind a sprinter took over and got beat by a better horse,,today...

BluegrassProf

03-13-2010, 08:01 PM

:D For crissakes.

This is ridiculous.It is indeed.

PT Barnum said it best.... :bang:

Z never went out of training.A dopey thread quickly wrapped up. Easy breezy. :ThmbUp:

(BTW, I like the whole "keeping it to a couple of threads" thing. Much more tidy that way, and it keeps the ideologues contained. :))

DeanT

03-13-2010, 08:04 PM

i agree. a horse that can beat males in three different races should have had this. first race or not.
She is the greatest (in many people's opinions) mare to ever race. She was 1-20 on betfair and everywhere else. It was the layups of all layups - like Tiger Woods playing 72 holes against, well, me. Unless she scopes sick, she aint the mare from last year.

I followed a number of people I find incredibly smart who said they thought she was not the same in wo's. I think by any estimation, they were correct. And it totally saddens me, because I wanted to watch her romp, and have always been a huge fan.

cpitt84

03-13-2010, 08:05 PM

She is the greatest (in many people's opinions) mare to ever race. She was 1-20 on betfair and everywhere else. It was the layups of all layups - like Tiger Woods playing 72 holes against, well, me. Unless she scopes sick, she aint the mare from last year.

I followed a number of people I find incredibly smart who said they thought she was not the same in wo's. I think by any estimation, they were correct. And it totally saddens me, because I wanted to watch her romp, and have always been a huge fan.

Same here, dean.

What about her can be so different? Aren't 4 year old's hitting their prime? Was it her trainers that let her down?

Sorely disappointed since I am a huge fan too.

tzipi

03-13-2010, 08:08 PM

She is the greatest (in many people's opinions) mare to ever race. She was 1-20 on betfair and everywhere else. It was the layups of all layups - like Tiger Woods playing 72 holes against, well, me. Unless she scopes sick, she aint the mare from last year.

Did you just start watching racing? A comeback loss means they are not the same horse? Funny you didn't answer my Kelso question to you. So I guess he wasn't a champion? Hmmm

Dahoss9698

03-13-2010, 08:13 PM

She is the greatest (in many people's opinions) mare to ever race. She was 1-20 on betfair and everywhere else. It was the layups of all layups - like Tiger Woods playing 72 holes against, well, me. Unless she scopes sick, she aint the mare from last year.

I followed a number of people I find incredibly smart who said they thought she was not the same in wo's. I think by any estimation, they were correct. And it totally saddens me, because I wanted to watch her romp, and have always been a huge fan.

But what does this have to do with HOY last year? The award was voted on based on who had the better year. It wasn't close who's year was better.

The vote isn't based on who the voters think is better. Does Albert Pujols win the MVP every year because he is better than everyone else? No, he needs to have the best year on the field.

DeanT

03-13-2010, 08:18 PM

Did you just start watching racing? A comeback loss means they are not the same horse? Funny you didn't answer my Kelso question to you. So I guess he wasn't a champion? Hmmm

Zip,

Kelso raced a gazillion years ago. It is 2010. When you have a modern racehorse like her, they are primed and ready. They have to protect a commodity, and they are trained like it (see Z's win today). It is apples to oranges, esp with a trainer like Steve A.

But what does this have to do with HOY last year? The award was voted on based on who had the better year. It wasn't close who's year was better.

The vote isn't based on who the voters think is better. Does Albert Pujols win the MVP every year because he is better than everyone else? No, he needs to have the best year on the field.

Dahoss,

Fair point.

I am just pissed she lost, so maybe it got the better of me.

tzipi

03-13-2010, 08:26 PM

Zip,

Kelso raced a gazillion years ago. It is 2010. When you have a modern racehorse like her, they are primed and ready. They have to protect a commodity, and they are trained like it (see Z's win today). It is apples to oranges, esp with a trainer like Steve A.

What a joke. Horses are different today? And what about all the horses from back then that DID win their comebacks? Flukes? Geez. No top horses in recent years lost their comback races after about 6 months off?
Give me a break I've been around horses and barns for 14 years. Losing a comeback race is nothing bad and normal and been done by TONS of top horses past and present. The winner was not garbage either.

So DeanT Affirmed romped in his layoff races but lost ONE at .30 cents before ratting of win after win after win. I guess he just wasn't primed for the ONE layoff race,right?. Ridiculous.

DeanT

03-13-2010, 08:33 PM

Zip,

We'll agree to disagree.

And I hope you are right, and I am wrong.

David-LV

03-13-2010, 08:37 PM

Did you just start watching racing? A comeback loss means they are not the same horse? Funny you didn't answer my Kelso question to you. So I guess he wasn't a champion? Hmmm

Kelso, my favorite horse of all times. I was there in person when Carry Back beat Kelso in his comeback race that year, but after that WOW.

_______
David-LV

Quote: "That is why we still have to run the race."
Any horse on any given day no matter how great can still lose.

ezrabrooks

03-13-2010, 09:07 PM

Carry Back...one bad step from a triple crown. With all due respect to Zardana...she aint no Carry Back. Kelso might have been in tougher..

Kelso, my favorite horse of all times. I was there in person when Carry Back beat Kelso in his comeback race that year, but after that WOW.

_______
David-LV

Quote: "That is why we still have to run the race."
Any horse on any given day no matter how great can still lose.

PaceAdvantage

03-14-2010, 03:00 PM

Carry Back...one bad step from a triple crown. With all due respect to Zardana...she aint no Carry Back. Kelso might have been in tougher..How do you know this? This was Zardana's first race on dirt in the United States. She was never beaten on dirt in Brazil, came here and was ok on synthetics, then switched back to dirt on Saturday.

They both beat the rest of the field by almost 12 lengths.

If Zardana wasn't in the race, and Rachel won by 12, everyone would be singing a different tune.

Tom

03-14-2010, 04:02 PM

Look at Zardana's PPS and draw line through all non-dirt lines.
Pretty good resume on the stuff.

We might have a nice stakes horse on the scene this year.

Grits

03-14-2010, 04:05 PM

Look at Zardana's PPS and draw line through all non-dirt lines.
Pretty good resume on the stuff.

We might have a nice stakes horse on the scene this year.

Sure hope she goes to Hot Springs. Then, we may have real opportunity to learn more about sportsmanlike behavior from Mr.Moss.

BluegrassProf

03-14-2010, 04:07 PM

They both beat the rest of the field by almost 12 lengths.

If Zardana wasn't in the race, and Rachel won by 12, everyone would be singing a different tune.Come now, PA. That sort of real world-talk has no place in this debate.

Best to take it elsewhere.

:bang: :D

DeanT

03-14-2010, 04:10 PM

How do you know this? This was Zardana's first race on dirt in the United States. She was never beaten on dirt in Brazil, came here and was ok on synthetics, then switched back to dirt on Saturday.

They both beat the rest of the field by almost 12 lengths.

If Zardana wasn't in the race, and Rachel won by 12, everyone would be singing a different tune.

I doubt that Pace. She is not going to OP for a reason, and most racewatchers (here and elsewhere) can judge when a horse is not quite right, whether they win or lose.

03-14-2010, 04:14 PM

Rachel ran horribly first time out as a 2yo, so I'm not sure why anyone would think she'd run lights out of a 6 month + layoff.

only11

03-14-2010, 04:18 PM

Rachel ran horribly first time out as a 2yo, so I'm not sure why anyone would think she'd run lights out of a 6 month + layoff.
Cant make the comparsion she was great at 3.. her 2 year old debut has nothing to do with yesterdays performance..

ezrabrooks

03-14-2010, 04:20 PM

How do you know this? This was Zardana's first race on dirt in the United States. She was never beaten on dirt in Brazil, came here and was ok on synthetics, then switched back to dirt on Saturday.

They both beat the rest of the field by almost 12 lengths.

If Zardana wasn't in the race, and Rachel won by 12, everyone would be singing a different tune.

Might have been her first race on dirt in the US...but, she didn't beat much..at least that is what I am hearing from all of the RA excuses (as in.. just beat an unfit race horse off a lay off).

Not sure of that 'everyone' of whom you speak.

letswastemoney

03-14-2010, 04:33 PM

So if Rachel raced ONE length faster people would have stopped complaining???

Geez. When Zenyatta loses against real competition, I'll be laughing all the way to the bank

letswastemoney

03-14-2010, 04:36 PM

Might have been her first race on dirt in the US...but, she didn't beat much..at least that is what I am hearing from all of the RA excuses (as in.. just beat an unfit race horse off a lay off).

Not sure of that 'everyone' of whom you speak.

Zardana beat Olympic Glory in Brazil. Olympic Glory finished within a length of Cocoa Beach in another race (I did not research this information and only read it from someone else on another board, but once I read it, it made me think harder about the race)

It's not that hard to fathom that Zardana is G1 quality on dirt and a nobody on synthetics.

Unless you want to ignore the results of the BC the past 2 years.

Steve R

03-14-2010, 04:37 PM

WOW. I guess your opinion is Kelso wasn't a champion. He lost many of his comebacks and once in a ALLOWANCE race! Yup, you really know horses and champions :D
Over the last 50 years, quite a few Horses of the Year that returned the following year have lost their initial start: Ferdinand, Lady's Secret, John Henry, All Along, Affirmed, Fort Marcy, Personality, Arts and Letters, Moccasin and Kelso (four times). To be fair, however, the majority have come back with a win and prior to Rachel Alexandra, the last to lose the first start was Ferdinand in 1988.

tzipi

03-14-2010, 05:02 PM

To be fair, however, the majority have come back with a win and prior to Rachel Alexandra, the last to lose the first start was Ferdinand in 1988.

This is RIDICULOUS! Just made up stuff to try and make RA look bad.
Charismatic didn't run after his HOY
Curlin didn't run after 2008 HOY
Saint Liam didn't run after 2005 HOY
Cigar didn't run after his 1996 HOY
Point Given didn't run after his 2001 HOY
Skip Away didn't run after his 1998 HOY
A.P. Indy didn't run after his 1992 HOY
Kotashaan didn't run after
Black Tie Affair did not run after his 1991 HOY
Ahh there's too many

03-14-2010, 05:45 PM

Cant make the comparsion she was great at 3.. her 2 year old debut has nothing to do with yesterdays performance..

You can make that comparison. Horses that win first out are much more likely to win off a long layoff than horses that lose first time out.

Cratos

03-14-2010, 06:14 PM

Steve R

03-14-2010, 06:21 PM

This is RIDICULOUS! Just made up stuff to try and make RA look bad.
Charismatic didn't run after his HOY
Curlin didn't run after 2008 HOY
Saint Liam didn't run after 2005 HOY
Cigar didn't run after his 1996 HOY
Point Given didn't run after his 2001 HOY
Skip Away didn't run after his 1998 HOY
A.P. Indy didn't run after his 1992 HOY
Kotashaan didn't run after
Black Tie Affair did not run after his 1991 HOY
Ahh there's too many
If you worked on your reading skills you would realize the reference was only to Horses of the Year that DID come back after a championship season. Since Ferdinand lost his initial comeback race, the first out winners include Cigar, Curlin, Holy Bull, Favorite Trick, Sunday Silence, Azeri and Tiznow. There are no other examples of a returning Horse of the Year losing its first start since 1988. There was no intent to make the filly look bad. I was only providing data that you, apparently because of a bruised ego or hypersensitivity, obviously misinterpreted.

tzipi

03-14-2010, 07:54 PM

If you worked on your reading skills you would realize the reference was only to Horses of the Year that DID come back after a championship season. Since Ferdinand lost his initial comeback race, the first out winners include Cigar, Curlin, Holy Bull, Favorite Trick, Sunday Silence, Azeri and Tiznow. There are no other examples of a returning Horse of the Year losing its first start since 1988. There was no intent to make the filly look bad. I was only providing data that you, apparently because of a bruised ego or hypersensitivity, obviously misinterpreted.

Yeah I did read. Ok so it's not like 20 horses ran. "First horse to lose since 1988" Just 7 horses ran since 1988 after their HOY. You would think by saying since 1988 15+ horses ran after. Only 7 have. That's a stat to put against RA?
Could've just said last 7 horses, not "since 1988". Like people are to say, wow 22 years ago! That many horses have not lost first race till now! That's all I was showing. Only 7 horses in that 22 years time frame.

Relwob Owner

03-14-2010, 08:04 PM

Yeah I did read. Ok so it's not like 20 horses ran. "First horse to lose since 1988" Just 7 horses ran since 1988 after their HOY. You would think by saying since 1988 15+ horses ran after. Only 7 have. That's a stat to put against RA?
Could've just said last 7 horses, not "since 1988". Like people are to say, wow 22 years ago! That many horses have not lost first race till now! That's all I was showing. Only 7 horses in that 22 years time frame.

Actually, I think you are wrong.....it is 9......I think people are using that stat because RA fans are jamming kelso and other horses down their throats as a way of excusing her loss yesterday....

Relwob Owner

03-14-2010, 08:05 PM

tzipi

03-14-2010, 08:07 PM

Actually, I think you are wrong.....it is 9......I think people are using that stat because RA fans are jamming kelso and other horses down their throats as a way of excusing her loss yesterday....

I've said Kelso and Affirmed just as two examples too because no one jumped on them for losing their comeback races like RA is getting. Kelso lost a allowance prep race! Just don't understand how a long layoff 2nd place finish is a sign it's over?? It's never been for other horses in history.
It's not an excuse in my book. I said it's just part of racing. People acted like this was a first ever occurence and the end of a season in mid March? that's all :ThmbUp:
Again NO excuse just part of racing and horses who are not machines.

Hanover1

03-14-2010, 08:10 PM

Actually, I think you are wrong.....it is 9......I think people are using that stat because RA fans are jamming kelso and other horses down their throats as a way of excusing her loss yesterday....
All meaningless stats...Where are the numbers of the average horse coming off layoffs? Average, above average, a horse is a horse.....

Relwob Owner

03-14-2010, 08:12 PM

I've said Kelso and Affirmed just as two examples too because no one jumped on them for losing their comeback races like RA is getting. Kelso lost a allowance prep race! Just don't understand how a long layoff 2nd place finish is a sign it's over?? It's never been for other horses in history.
It's not an excuse in my book. I said it's just part of racing. People acted like this was a first ever occurence and the end of a season in mid March? that's all :ThmbUp:

I didnt even see you used Kelso and wasnt getting at you directly...just saw the name brought up several times....

Relwob Owner

03-14-2010, 08:14 PM

All meaningless stats...Where are the numbers of the average horse coming off layoffs? Average, above average, a horse is a horse.....

Interesting....you think the stats of a 5K claimer should be compared with a horse like Rachel?

How else would you compare Rachel and her effort off a layoff?

tzipi

03-14-2010, 08:18 PM

I didnt even see you used Kelso and wasnt getting at you directly...just saw the name brought up several times....

Yeah I've said it a couple of times because it's showing people are just saying this to make fun of a horse. This is so common in racing with top horses. I was just saying some big ones like Kelso losing many layoff races and Affirmed lost his first 2 comeback races. I'm just saying it's normal and no reason to say a horse is done or to say the season is over in mid March.
I think we are taking away from better convo and this upcoming season to be making up that a 6 month layoff 2nd place finish is the end of the world now. That's all.

Robert Goren

03-14-2010, 08:24 PM

Put Zardana in Rachel’s next race; buy a winning ticket on Zardana and go and wait by the cashier’s window. However you better bring food and something to sleep on because you will be waiting forever to cash your ticket; if they meet in Rachel’s next outing and whether it be the Apple Blossom or some other race, Rachel will finish significantly ahead of Zardana. I believe you will be waiting a long time to cash that ticket too because RA's people want nothing more to do with Zardana. It will be really interesting to see how many tracks RA will run at trying to duck the Zs and company.

Dahoss9698

03-14-2010, 08:28 PM

tzipi

03-14-2010, 08:28 PM

I believe you will be waiting a long time to cash that ticket too because RA's people want nothing more to do with Zardana. It will be really interesting to see how many tracks RA will run at trying to duck the Zs and company.

A 2nd place finish off a 6 month layoff means you can't beat a horse. She's not in top shape yet. Zardana just beat her. "How many tracks". How many states and tracks did the Moss's travel too so far? cmon Robert and I've always liked and agreed with you posts since I've been here too :D

Steve R

03-14-2010, 08:50 PM

A 2nd place finish off a 6 month layoff means you can't beat a horse. She's not in top shape yet. Zardana just beat her. "How many tracks". How many states and tracks did the Moss's travel too so far? cmon Robert and I've always liked and agreed with you posts since I've been here too :D
I'm not as concerned about the second place finish as I am about what may have been the slowest last quarter mile in a route race in her career. Close to 26 seconds I believe and off one of the more moderate paces she has faced. Either her training up to the race was below par, her connections succumbed to the pressure to run even if prematurely or, hopefully not, she actually did peak at three.

tzipi

03-14-2010, 08:55 PM

I'm not as concerned about the second place finish as I am about what may have been the slowest last quarter mile in a route race in her career. Close to 26 seconds I believe and off one of the more moderate paces she has faced. Either her training up to the race was below par, her connections succumbed to the pressure to run even if prematurely or, hopefully not, she actually did peak at three.

Well considering as I have said that champion horses lost comeback races running up the track badly(worse than 26 sec) and then came back to dominate makes me NOT worry. These races happen, it's normal. It's the first race back and she's lost off a layoff before. Why is this a shock? (racing wise not fan wise).
Steve I say she's just getting into form and the race maybe was a bit early and because it's just mid March and not Sept like it seems here, I feel good. JMO :ThmbUp:

Robert Goren

03-14-2010, 08:59 PM

Relwob Owner

03-14-2010, 08:59 PM

Yeah I've said it a couple of times because it's showing people are just saying this to make fun of a horse. This is so common in racing with top horses. I was just saying some big ones like Kelso losing many layoff races and Affirmed lost his first 2 comeback races. I'm just saying it's normal and no reason to say a horse is done or to say the season is over in mid March.
I think we are taking away from better convo and this upcoming season to be making up that a 6 month layoff 2nd place finish is the end of the world now. That's all.

Fair points......I am one who came away with the idea of advantage Zenyatta based solely on yesterday....however, I acknowledge that RA could have needed the race but since they arent running in the AB, I fear it may be something more....

tzipi

03-14-2010, 09:03 PM

Well if you need to get in to peak form why rush into the AB in early April when you have all year long left?

tzipi

03-14-2010, 09:09 PM

Say what you want, but they got a problem and they know it.

Well you dont know for sure. As I've said Affirmed's first 2 races back from his dominant season after getting killed in the JCGC by almost 20.
1st race-G2 race. Goes off at .30 cents. Finishes 3rd losing by over 2 lengths.
2nd race-G2 race. Goes off at .50 cents. Finishes 2nd losing by 3 lengths.

Affirmed than goes undefeated(7-7) beating the great Spectacular Bid.

Was he done,was he not the same? Sometimes it's takes horses a bit to get back in shape. They are just animals. I'm feeling positive because this is so normal in racing and she's lost a layoff race before. :ThmbUp:

46zilzal

03-14-2010, 09:12 PM

Affirmed than goes undefeated(7-7) beating the great Spectacular Bid.

Was he done,was he not the same? Sometimes it's takes horses a bit to get back in shape. They are just animals. I'm positive because this is so normal in racing and she's lost a layoff race before. :
race was a classic as Bid tried him three separate times.

Barrera; "Affirmed is tougher than a five cent steak."

tzipi

03-14-2010, 09:16 PM

Barrera; "Affirmed is tougher than a five cent steak."

:D Great saying. Just watched the race again. Superb :ThmbUp:

Cratos

03-14-2010, 10:14 PM

I believe you will be waiting a long time to cash that ticket too because RA's people want nothing more to do with Zardana. It will be really interesting to see how many tracks RA will run at trying to duck the Zs and company.

Duck Zardana and Zenyatta? Please, it is okay to stretch the truth somewhat, but to create your own fantasies is downright ridiculous.

Chase

03-15-2010, 08:12 AM

So wait, not only is Rachel ducking Zenyatta, but Zardana also?

I love the internet.
Very telling.

castaway01

03-15-2010, 08:50 AM

Training or no training, the horse of the year voters got it wrong. A champion should not have lost that race.

So if the Saints lose their first game next season, then they get last year's Super Bowl win taken away? It was 2009 Horse of the Year, not 2010.

Lsheker

03-15-2010, 10:34 AM

I'm not as concerned about the second place finish as I am about what may have been the slowest last quarter mile in a route race in her career. Close to 26 seconds I believe and off one of the more moderate paces she has faced. Either her training up to the race was below par, her connections succumbed to the pressure to run even if prematurely or, hopefully not, she actually did peak at three.

According to Equibase chart, Rachel's fractions were 24.01, 23.88, 24.94, 24.26, 6.58. She ran her final quarter in about :24.78 (estimated by taking 6.0 off the actual 4th quarter and adding last 1/2 furlong, which was a bit sluggish). At least she responded when Zardana came up to her after the slow 3rd Q - picked it up quite a bit in 4Q. Still, it's disappointing - was hoping she was further along in her training. I think she's just out of shape, that's all. We'll all know soon enough. I'm guessing we'll see her again in May or June unless she suddenly starts tearing up in the track in her workouts again. We can hope.

One other thing - congrats to the Zenyatta fans - she looked great on Sat. I don't see how Rachel would have any shot against her in 4 weeks in her current condition.

46zilzal

03-15-2010, 11:07 AM

How many horses historically have had one exceptional season and then fade into obscurity?.....happens all the time

46zilzal

03-15-2010, 11:09 AM

When Whittingham had the best two on the grounds, which was often (but in this case they were Ack Ack and Cougar II) he wisely kept them apart. It will be no different here as why would anyone race against themselves?

lamboguy

03-15-2010, 11:14 AM

Say what you want, but they got a problem and they know it.for them to announce the day after the race that they would not be going to oaklawn sure sounds like there is a problem. they certainly didn't think that they could improve the horse in such a short period of time. they did put $5million on the table and if the horse was right she would have been there.

Dahoss9698

03-15-2010, 12:40 PM

Very telling.

Still lame.

Spalding No!

03-15-2010, 02:05 PM

46zilzal

03-15-2010, 02:14 PM

Didn't Ack Ack beat Cougar II in the Santa Anita Handicap?
yes and that is WHY he kept them apart much to the chagrin on Cougar's owner

ezrabrooks

03-15-2010, 02:30 PM

race was a classic as Bid tried him three separate times.

Barrera; "Affirmed is tougher than a five cent steak."

Affirmed was special that day..but, he was lucky he didn't catch The Bid as a 4yo..

Chase

03-15-2010, 03:19 PM

Still lame.
You're the best dhoss7384564575. You're the keyboard trainer, horseman and comedian. One of the best I've ever seen and you're not even headbobbing lame.

Dahoss9698

03-15-2010, 03:21 PM

You're the best dhoss7384564575. You're the keyboard trainer, horseman and comedian. One of the best I've ever seen and you're not even headbobbing lame.

Thanks. I try.

only11

03-15-2010, 06:32 PM

Put Zardana in Rachel’s next race; buy a winning ticket on Zardana and go and wait by the cashier’s window. However you better bring food and something to sleep on because you will be waiting forever to cash your ticket; if they meet in Rachel’s next outing and whether it be the Apple Blossom or some other race, Rachel will finish significantly ahead of Zardana.
How do you even know of RA is the same horse as last year..?;'