PDA

View Full Version : Rachel loses comeback prep


Pages : [1] 2

firstoffclaim
03-13-2010, 06:22 PM
Shireffs beats Rachel with Zardana:confused:

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 06:22 PM
Merging all new "Rachel loses" threads into this thread to keep things sane...

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:22 PM
doubt Rachael goes now



thats what you get when you try and squeeze her into a race when shes not ready.

Memo to Jess Jackson:

Let Steve train her and pick the spots you just pay the bills.

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:24 PM
Let's keep all the talk to one thread please....






Bad strategy by Jess jackson. This horse was not ready and Steve wasnt planning on running her till Keeneland or Churchill but ego Jess Jackson had to have it his way.

Nice job Jackson

dccprez
03-13-2010, 06:24 PM
Agreed. No excuses. It looked as if RA simply isn't fit. There's NO way that she beats Zenyatta running like she did today.

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 06:24 PM
Let's keep all the talk to one thread please....

She didn't look right - head cocked to the right (I don't think she typically runs like that) for much of the race. Hope I'm wrong and she just wasn't fit enough.

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 06:25 PM
doubt Rachael goes now



thats what you get when you try and squeeze her into a race when shes not ready.

Memo to Jess Jackson:

Let Steve train her and pick the spots you just pay the bills.



You called this a few months ago.....

I do think Rachel may still run in the AB, though...

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 06:25 PM
Bad strategy by Jess jackson. This horse was not ready and Steve wasnt planning on running her till Keeneland or Churchill but ego Jess Jackson had to have it his way.

Nice job JacksonWhat's the big deal? As if no other big horse ever lost a comeback prep off a long layoff?

Did they ever say she NEEDED TO WIN in order to go the Apple Blossom.

I don't understand what the big deal is....it's not as if Rachel was trying to protect an undefeated record or anything like that...

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:25 PM
Kiss the Apple Blossom goodbye now no way Racheal goes there now.

cpitt84
03-13-2010, 06:25 PM
wow glad i didnt watch it. i am so disappointed :(

tzipi
03-13-2010, 06:26 PM
Agreed. No excuses. It looked as if RA simply isn't fit. There's NO way that she beats Zenyatta running like she did today.

It was the first race of the year. She's not peaked. Doesn't kill me knowing how horses are. Good valiant effort. OK on to Zenny.

only11
03-13-2010, 06:26 PM
there 's the first excuse she wasnt ready...hmmm then dont race her. Borel said she was ready to go

Watcher
03-13-2010, 06:26 PM
sNjm7rU6mjo

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 06:27 PM
there 's the first excuse she wasnt ready...hmmm then dont race her. Borel said she was ready to go

Yeah she was ready. She just got beat by a much better horse. :rolleyes:

The Hawk
03-13-2010, 06:27 PM
You called this a few months ago.....

I do think Rachel may still run in the AB, though...

She may or may not. How'd you like to be the guy who bought $300 Apple Blossom seats on EBay right about now? :D

classhandicapper
03-13-2010, 06:27 PM
Let's wait to see what the speed figure is before jumping to conclusions. We all knew she wasn't 100% going into this. Steve said as much. It's a matter of how short and bad she was today. If the figure is 100 that's one thing. If it's 90 that's an entirely different thing.

MickJ26
03-13-2010, 06:28 PM
Shireffs beats Rachel with Zardana:confused:


That's the irony is the Sheriffs horse beat her.
Besides, they were saying all along Rachel wasn't at peak fitness.
Why so surprised?

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:28 PM
What's the big deal? As if no other big horse ever lost a comeback prep off a long layoff?

Did they ever say she NEEDED TO WIN in order to go the Apple Blossom.

I don't understand what the big deal is....it's not as if Rachel was trying to protect an undefeated record or anything like that...







Didnt you say Rachael was better than Zen? Zen would chew her up and spit her out.


No they didnt say she had to win but guess what? She did have to win to go to Oaklawn.


She should of dusted this field.


It was bad management by Jess Jackson and his ego to face Zen. I said it all along shes going to need 2-3 races before she faces Zen. She cant do it on one prep race.

tzipi
03-13-2010, 06:28 PM
there 's the first excuse she wasnt ready...hmmm then dont race her. Borel said she was ready to go

It was a first race back. No excuses. Just getting legs under her. People are just so negative. Doesn't bother me one bit,her loss. Valiant effort. Almost came back.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 06:28 PM
Kiss the Apple Blossom goodbye now no way Racheal goes there now.Why do you keep spouting this spam? Isn't once enough?

I don't agree, unless there is something physically wrong.

Once again, did they ever claim this was a MUST WIN race in order to go to Oaklawn?

BluegrassProf
03-13-2010, 06:29 PM
Bad strategy by Jess jackson. This horse was not ready ... Jess Jackson had to have it his way.

Nice job Jackson
I have a feeling we'll be seeing a whole lot of this, much of it from the same folks that questioned the "ducking" of the Apple Blossom prior to the announcement and her readiness after a layoff.

We'll see.

Shame. Onward and upward...c'est la jeu! :blush:

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:29 PM
You called this a few months ago.....

I do think Rachel may still run in the AB, though...





Thanks Relwob. She wasnt ready. Its not how Steve trains. It was clearly Jacksons plan all along. What is Steve going to do tell him thats not a good idea and then he yanks the horse from him.

tzipi
03-13-2010, 06:29 PM
Didnt you say Rachael was better than Zen? Zem would chew he rup and spit her out.


No they didnt say she had to win but guess what? She did have to win to go to Oaklawn.


She should of dusted this field.


It was bad management by Jess Jackson and his ego to face Zen. I said it all along shes going to need 2-3 races before she faces Zen. She cant do it on one prep race.

You never trained a horse in your life and would've trashed Secretariat,Man O war,etc etc for a loss. it was her first race back. NO big deal.

You think first race back after that layoff is peak effort. :rolleyes:

horses4courses
03-13-2010, 06:29 PM
There is no getting around it....Rachel is not close to her best right now.

She may get there again sometime....but I doubt it's in 4 weeks.

I liked Zenyatta's chances.....we just may never know now.

That's a shame....

letswastemoney
03-13-2010, 06:29 PM
You guys are insane. No horse is perfect.

Even Seattle Slew and Secretariat lost some. Geez. Zardana is undefeated on dirt, it's not that surprising!!!

Zippy Chippy
03-13-2010, 06:30 PM
I'm sick over this. The worst thing is everyone in the sportsbook was rooting against her. Hate that

dccprez
03-13-2010, 06:31 PM
Bad strategy by Jess jackson. This horse was not ready and Steve wasnt planning on running her till Keeneland or Churchill but ego Jess Jackson had to have it his way.

Nice job Jackson

Not JJ's fault.

Just out of curiosity; why do some people knock Jess Jackson so much? who wouldn't have wanted to run their horse in a $5M race?

So they tried and it (loks like) it may not work out. Big deal! At least they tried. Good for them.

It's his horse, his money, his investment, his stable, etc. Disparaging JJ really seems like jealousy - of his money or his horse or his success.

keithw84
03-13-2010, 06:32 PM
Assuming Zenyatta wins, you might be able to get a decent price on Rachel in the AB now.

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:32 PM
Why do you keep spouting this spam? Isn't once enough?

I don't agree, unless there is something physically wrong.

Once again, did they ever claim this was a MUST WIN race in order to go to Oaklawn?




No they didnt so whats ur point? If you owned Rachael would you go to the Apple Blossom off this race? I know i wouldnt. For what just to say the race happened between Zen and Rachael. Thanks but no thanks. Jacksons ego got the best of him.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 06:32 PM
Well, you knew this shit was coming...I wouldn't be surprised to see Rachel run in the AB off of this prep race, as long as she is healthy.

I only hope Zenyatta wins today with "devastating ease" such that the AB will be even more of a letdown to camp Zenyatta...

Robert Fischer
03-13-2010, 06:33 PM
She didn't look right

looked terrible and stiff in the post parade. I had a lousy feed but she wasn't looking good at all. Didn't even look as nice as her workouts.

only11
03-13-2010, 06:33 PM
You guys are insane. No horse is perfect.

Even Seattle Slew and Secretariat lost some. Geez. Zardana is undefeated on dirt, it's not that surprising!!!
Yes Zenyatta is perfect isnt she?

bks
03-13-2010, 06:33 PM
Is Shirreffs' entering Zardana acceptable to everybody now?

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 06:33 PM
Well, you knew this shit was coming...I wouldn't be surprised to see Rachel run in the AB off of this prep race, as long as she is healthy.

I only hope Zenyatta wins today with "devastating ease" such that the AB will be even more of a letdown to camp Zenyatta...

That's awesome!

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 06:33 PM
If you owned Rachael would you go to the Apple Blossom off this race? I know i wouldnt.That's why you're not training for a living I would guess.

letswastemoney
03-13-2010, 06:33 PM
No they didnt so whats ur point? If you owned Rachael would you go to the Apple Blossom off this race? I know i wouldnt. For what just to say the race happened between Zen and Rachael. Thanks but no thanks. Jacksons ego got the best of him.
No horse wins every race.

When RA faces Zenyatta in the AB, Zenyatta fans will realize that.

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:34 PM
You never trained a horse in your life and would've trashed Secretariat,Man O war,etc etc for a loss. it was her first race back. NO big deal.

You think first race back after that layoff is peak effort. :rolleyes:


No i dont i dont think she should of ran in the first place. I said all along it was a bad idea to run against Zen first time off a 8 month layoff. The connections thought they could get a prep race in her before facing Zen. Its not the route i would of went with but hey i dont own the horse. But guess what i have an opinion and i will voice it.

keithw84
03-13-2010, 06:34 PM
Yes Zenyatta is perfect isnt she?
Yes, and so is Pepper's Pride

classhandicapper
03-13-2010, 06:35 PM
Well, you knew this shit was coming...I wouldn't be surprised to see Rachel run in the AB off of this prep race, as long as she is healthy.

I only hope Zenyatta wins today with "devastating ease" such that the AB will be even more of a letdown to camp Zenyatta...

Have a rooting interest here? ;)

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 06:35 PM
What's the big deal? As if no other big horse ever lost a comeback prep off a long layoff?

Did they ever say she NEEDED TO WIN in order to go the Apple Blossom.

I don't understand what the big deal is....it's not as if Rachel was trying to protect an undefeated record or anything like that...



I am surprised you dont think it is a big deal.....the Horse of the Year gets everything her way in a 5 horse field of fillies and loses to a horse that I dont think has ever even run in a Grade 1 race on the dirt or gotten a Beyer over 96....layoff or not, losing in that race is a big deal IMO

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:36 PM
Is Shirreffs' entering Zardana acceptable to everybody now?






have no problem with it.

letswastemoney
03-13-2010, 06:36 PM
I am surprised you dont think it is a big deal.....the Horse of the Year gets everything her way in a 5 horse field of fillies and loses to a horse that I dont think has ever even run in a Grade 1 race on the dirt or gotten a Beyer over 96....layoff or not, losing in that race is a big deal IMO
She's never ran on dirt in America!!! When will people get this in their head!!!!

Zardana is obviously a true dirt horse, as shown by her undefeated 4 for 4 record on dirt

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:37 PM
That's why you're not training for a living I would guess.





You neither. But guess what i train and i own what do you do? Run a message board?

Horseplayersbet.com
03-13-2010, 06:37 PM
What will the excuse be? I say it will be something that needs a bit of a layoff.

GaryG
03-13-2010, 06:37 PM
It remains to be seen whether she can regain her 3yo form. Sure, she needed this one, but she may not be the same filly at 4. Then again, maybe she is....we will see.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 06:37 PM
looked terrible and stiff in the post parade. I had a lousy feed but she wasn't looking good at all. Didn't even look as nice as her workouts.I thought she ran a decent race and got exactly what she needed out of it...would it have been nice to win? Sure...

Borel was certainly more reserved than usual down the stretch...he didn't look like he was all out to win, as well he should NOT be at this point.

Even the DRF had the headline pre-race "Rachel may need this one" or something like that...

Why is this so shocking? Or why is it such negative news?

Jasonm921
03-13-2010, 06:38 PM
Did anybody else get a case of Deja vu watching this. Rags to Riches' Gazelle Stakes anyone?

GaryG
03-13-2010, 06:38 PM
You neither. But guess what i train and i own what do you do? Run a message board?Did we get our little feelings hurt my mean old Mike?

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 06:39 PM
You neither. But guess what i train and i own what do you do? Run a message board?It's good to see you using my services. Remind me to think twice about using yours then if this is how you feel about what a horse should do first time off a long layoff.

letswastemoney
03-13-2010, 06:40 PM
All this means is that RA backers will get a really nice price on her in the Apple Blossom. Heck maybe even Zardana will be a nice price since no one believes she's for real.

Meanwhile, Zenyatta will probably be pounded to 1/9 and finish 3rd.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-13-2010, 06:40 PM
I thought she ran a decent race and got exactly what she needed out of it...would it have been nice to win? Sure...

Borel was certainly more reserved than usual down the stretch...he didn't look like he was all out to win, as well he should NOT be at this point.

Even the DRF had the headline pre-race "Rachel may need this one" or something like that...

Why is this so shocking? Or why is it such negative news?
She was about 5 better than the winner on paper. But if the race was a prep. It was a good prep.

I didn't like the way she ran though, it just didn't look right. But then again, I'm far from an expert here.

markgoldie
03-13-2010, 06:40 PM
First off, there is no question of her credentials as an all-time great filly.

That being said, I would be among the doubters that she will answer the bell for the race against Zenyatta and the reason is not the loss in the prep but the magnitude of the potential showdown. The connections owe it to her greatness not to start her unless they are 100% sure of a top-quality performance and under the circumstances, I'm not sure how that is now possible.

IF she fails to attend the Apple Blossom and IF Sherriffs truly believes that he had the better mare under all circumstances, then he has shot himself in the foot by sending his spoiler to Fairgrounds. He may have won a battle, but may have forever lost a chance at a victory in a $5 million war.

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:40 PM
Not JJ's fault.

Just out of curiosity; why do some people knock Jess Jackson so much? who wouldn't have wanted to run their horse in a $5M race?

So they tried and it (loks like) it may not work out. Big deal! At least they tried. Good for them.

It's his horse, his money, his investment, his stable, etc. Disparaging JJ really seems like jealousy - of his money or his horse or his success.





He can do whatever he wants to but guess what he mismanaged this horse. Why not run 3 races and then tackle Zen? or tackle her next year in the BC Classic. That race is 6 mill which is more than 5 mill if my math is correct.


Why did jackson feel the need to tackle Zen off one prep race? Its stupid plain and simple.

cpitt84
03-13-2010, 06:41 PM
why did rachel lose this race? is she just not as fast as zardana?

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:41 PM
Did we get our little feelings hurt my mean old Mike?





Mikes not my name and my feelings dont get hurt. Come again...

strapper
03-13-2010, 06:42 PM
Everyone was warned she wasn't geared up for the Ladies, but even so, this wasn't the Rachel of last year. Now on to California for Zenyatta's race. Hope she doesn't disappoint too. She does look magnificent in the saddling ring. Feel bad for Mr. Cella at Oaklawn - it would've been great if both won their preps for the Apple Blossom.

The Hawk
03-13-2010, 06:42 PM
The pace of the race got her beat, which is what could happen to Zenyatta in about 90 seconds, since there's little speed in this race.

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 06:42 PM
I thought she ran a decent race and got exactly what she needed out of it...would it have been nice to win? Sure...

Borel was certainly more reserved than usual down the stretch...he didn't look like he was all out to win, as well he should NOT be at this point.

Even the DRF had the headline pre-race "Rachel may need this one" or something like that...

Why is this so shocking? Or why is it such negative news?

She simply didn't look right. Just watch the head-on replay and how she's carrying her head. Hope I'm wrong.

classhandicapper
03-13-2010, 06:42 PM
I am surprised you dont think it is a big deal.....the Horse of the Year gets everything her way in a 5 horse field of fillies and loses to a horse that I dont think has ever even run in a Grade 1 race on the dirt or gotten a Beyer over 96....layoff or not, losing in that race is a big deal IMO

As I said before, let's see what the figure for THIS race is because figures on turf and synthetic do not translate equally to dirt. They are often slower at the top without being an indication of less ability. That other filly may be better than we think.

horses4courses
03-13-2010, 06:44 PM
Well, you knew this shit was coming...I wouldn't be surprised to see Rachel run in the AB off of this prep race, as long as she is healthy.

I only hope Zenyatta wins today with "devastating ease" such that the AB will be even more of a letdown to camp Zenyatta...

Post time for Zenyatta....she hardly ever wins with devasting ease.....she just "WINS BAAABYYYYYYYY"........

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:44 PM
It's good to see you using my services. Remind me to think twice about using yours then if this is how you feel about what a horse should do first time off a long layoff.




Yes its how i feel so do many other trainers feel the same way. If this was her comeback race and facing Zen wasnt an option then this race would be fine. But know they want to face Zen off this prep race which is the stupidest thing ever. And the 2nd race off a layoff is usually the worst race a horse will throw. So get your facts straight before telling me how to run a horse.

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:46 PM
What was that?



That was Zen gobbling up Rachael and spitting her out in the infeied when she blew on by.

Robert Fischer
03-13-2010, 06:46 PM
i think she may be retired off this.

This wasn't the same horse at all.

she looked stiff in the parade.


I don't know - maybe zardana is an awesome dirt horse... maybe rachel "wasn't in shape" ... she didn't look like the same horse

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:47 PM
Thats a racehorse fellas.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-13-2010, 06:47 PM
Zenyatta is a freak. She was looking for the hole. I don't think I've seen a horse do that. Mike Smith is just a passenger.

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 06:47 PM
What was that?



That was Zen gobbling up Rachael and spitting her out in the infeied when she blew on by.

Z won in spite of Mike Smith. He may be worse than his idol Pat Day.

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:48 PM
Did yall just hear that?



All the phones are ringing at Hot Springs cancelling there rooms and flights.

letswastemoney
03-13-2010, 06:48 PM
As I said before, let's see what the figure for THIS race is because figures on turf and synthetic do not translate equally to dirt. They are often slower at the top without being an indication of less ability. That other filly may be better than we think.
Not just that, but some horses don't have the same ability on dual surfaces

It's bizarre that no one even considers that Zardana is G1 quality on dirt.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 06:48 PM
Yes its how i feel so do many other trainers feel the same way. If this was her comeback race and facing Zen wasnt an option then this race would be fine. But know they want to face Zen off this prep race which is the stupidest thing ever. And the 2nd race off a layoff is usually the worst race a horse will throw. So get your facts straight before telling me how to run a horse.I didn't tell you how to run a horse. What I told you was that it would be absolutely silly to expect Rachel to be 100% peaked-out and to expect Borel to ride her into the ground in her first race back.

The fact remains, Rachel lost by a HALF-LENGTH (.75 at most), and Borel was CLEARLY not riding all out.

All in all, a nice prep if she is healthy.

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 06:50 PM
Did yall just hear that?



All the phones are ringing at Hot Springs cancelling there rooms and flights.

I do think RA's loss today makes the AB showdown anti-climatic. Damn I hate agreeing with you on any RA/Z matter.

BluegrassProf
03-13-2010, 06:50 PM
Why is this so shocking? Or why is it such negative news?"You're first or you're last, Ricky Bobby!" Sounds funny in the film, doesn't it?

Can't see the forest for the trees.

I say let them seethe and agitate and chomp the bit. Meanwhile, I suggest waiting for the wins in a campaign - remember that word, folks? - with meaning. :ThmbUp:

Good races today. Looking forward to the not-so-distant future...

Horseplayersbet.com
03-13-2010, 06:51 PM
Yes its how i feel so do many other trainers feel the same way. If this was her comeback race and facing Zen wasnt an option then this race would be fine. But know they want to face Zen off this prep race which is the stupidest thing ever. And the 2nd race off a layoff is usually the worst race a horse will throw. So get your facts straight before telling me how to run a horse.
It wasn't the worse race Zardanna threw.

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 06:53 PM
[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]I didn't tell you how to run a horse. What I told you was that it would be absolutely silly to expect Rachel to be 100% peaked-out and to expect Borel to ride her into the ground in her first race back.

The fact remains, Rachel lost by a HALF-LENGTH (.75 at most), and Borel was CLEARLY not riding all out.







It was a great prep no question. But not a great prep if shes going to face Zen next trip. I said all along it was stupid to face Zen 2nd race off a layoff. Why not run against her in July or August and if that doesnt happen then you know it will happen at the BC Classic.

It was a bad decision by Jackson plain and simple if hes going to face Zen next month.

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 06:58 PM
Z won in spite of Mike Smith. He may be worse than his idol Pat Day.



:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 06:59 PM
It was a great prep no question. But not a great prep if shes going to face Zen next trip. I said all along it was stupid to face Zen 2nd race off a layoff. Why not run against her in July or August and if that doesnt happen then you know it will happen at the BC Classic.

It was a bad decision by Jackson plain and simple if hes going to face Zen next month.I don't necessarily disagree...but I also don't agree the AB is an automatic throwout...then again, you're the trainer....

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 07:01 PM
I don't necessarily disagree...but I also don't agree the AB is an automatic throwout...then again, you're the trainer....





and ur the one who said Rachael is better than Zen. hahaha..

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 07:02 PM
No i dont i dont think she should of ran in the first place. I said all along it was a bad idea to run against Zen first time off a 8 month layoff. The connections thought they could get a prep race in her before facing Zen. Its not the route i would of went with but hey i dont own the horse. But guess what i have an opinion and i will voice it.


Seems like the hardest thing to do sometimes on this board is to get credit when you are right....since I bickered with you at the time, I will back you up-you were right.....

Wickel
03-13-2010, 07:02 PM
The bottom line is that those 4- and 5-horse fields of second rate competition finally caught up with Rachel.

Robert Goren
03-13-2010, 07:04 PM
All of you RA fans tell me that you didn't expect her to run off and hide from that bunch. I know I did. I said that I didn't like a 4f wo she had. I am beginning to wonder if there is not something wrong with her. She didn't run like the RA we came to know and love last year. I just don't think it is a " not quite ready" issue against the stuff she faced today. JMO

JustRalph
03-13-2010, 07:04 PM
I thought she ran a decent race and got exactly what she needed out of it...would it have been nice to win? Sure...

Borel was certainly more reserved than usual down the stretch...he didn't look like he was all out to win, as well he should NOT be at this point.


I was about to type the same thing........... perfect, dead on analysis.

Amazing how emotional some people get after these big races.

This thread has predicted that she is "not the same" and even speculation about her retirement........ Amazing.,,,,,,,,, :bang: :bang: :lol:

I hope she comes back well...........and I still put her over Zenyatta

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:04 PM
and ur the one who said Rachael is better than Zen. hahaha..First off, it's Rachel.

Second, what has happened to change my opinion?

How do we know if Zardana isn't better than Zenyatta on dirt?

Marshall Bennett
03-13-2010, 07:05 PM
Ran like HOY to me. :lol:

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:06 PM
I just don't think it is a " not quite ready" issue against the stuff she faced today. JMOHow do you know Zardana isn't better than Zenyatta on dirt?

tzipi
03-13-2010, 07:06 PM
The bottom line is that those 4- and 5-horse fields of second rate competition finally caught up with Rachel.

And now I see why the tracks always win your money. :D

Show Me the Wire
03-13-2010, 07:06 PM
She simply didn't look right. Just watch the head-on replay and how she's carrying her head. Hope I'm wrong.

Very disquiting that she lost. I am disappointed.

I agree with the assesment of Rachel not looking right. Her stride was not the same stride she exhibited last year.

One thing to lose a prep and look good while losing, but she didn't look good losing. Those rumors, reported by DeJulio, about a soft tissue injury may have some substance. I am truly sad today. :(

gm10
03-13-2010, 07:07 PM
Lookin at lucky wins on dirt
Zardana beats RA on dirt
Zenyatta beats another lot at SA

that plastic form is no good, really

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 07:07 PM
The bottom line is that those 4- and 5-horse fields of second rate competition finally caught up with Rachel.

8,7,3,13,7,5,6,9.....field sizes for her last 8 races.......might have been something else?

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 07:07 PM
Very disquiting that she lost. I am disappointed.

I agree with the assesment of Rachel not looking right. Her stride was not the same stride she exhibited last year.

One thing to lose a prep and look good while losing, but she didn't look good losing. Those rumors, reported by DeJulio, about a soft tissue injury may have some substance. I am truly sad today. :(

I thought that was all crap, but today really makes me wonder. Let's hope not.

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 07:08 PM
Why is this so shocking? Or why is it such negative news?

Because the rachel hype machine created this monster. She's "much the best" remember? She was going to come back as a monster as a 4yo and dominate the best males. She starts the year off with a perfect trip and loses to a member of her own sex.

Dahoss9698
03-13-2010, 07:08 PM
I love how people suddenly become trainers in the middle of discussions. Well, I'm the Easter Bunny...beat that.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:09 PM
One thing to lose a prep and look good while losing, but she didn't look good losing.How so, exactly?

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:10 PM
Because the rachel hype machine created this monster. She's "much the best" remember? She was going to come back as a monster as a 4yo and dominate the best males. She starts the year off with a perfect trip and loses to a member of her own sex.Right. And that means what exactly? We all know Rachel can lose...she's done it before. More than once before today, correct?

horses4courses
03-13-2010, 07:10 PM
First off, it's Rachel.

Second, what has happened to change my opinion?

How do we know if Zardana isn't better than Zenyatta on dirt?

Well, after all, Zenyatta is going for a second Apple Blossom.
She beat Ginger Punch there 2 years ago, herself a champion.
I really hope Rachel makes it there in a month.

dccprez
03-13-2010, 07:10 PM
He can do whatever he wants to but guess what he mismanaged this horse. Why not run 3 races and then tackle Zen? or tackle her next year in the BC Classic. That race is 6 mill which is more than 5 mill if my math is correct.


Why did jackson feel the need to tackle Zen off one prep race? Its stupid plain and simple.


Everyone is an expert...EXCEPT the multi-millionaire owner and the Eclipse winning trainer? We're suppposed to think that a bunch of nameless-faceless sitting at keyboards, posting on a forum in the ether are smarter/better/more enlightened about how to train/prep a superstar than the team that got her to the HOY?

Nuh-uh.

They knew what they were doing. It didn't result in a win but the rest remains to be seen.

Why not tackle Zen off of 10 prep races? Or 5? Or none? That's THEIR call and they most certainly know the horse better than anyone of us out here in fantasy-"e"-land.

People called them "stupid" for running in the Preakness. Then again when they entered in the Woodward. If that's "stupid plain simple" then it's the "stupid" that got her to superstar status and a lock for the HOF. Meanwhile, we all continue to sit and post - and think that we know better...and make "absolute" statements like "plain and simple". Puh-leeze.

And while you were very good with the math - $6M being more than $5m - why not run in BOTH? How often do you get a chance to do THAT - run in a $5M race, in North America, in April? Ummm...once, that I'm aware of. You shouldn't pass up a chance like that - a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Especially when you can STILL run in the $6M race later on.

Let's see how this all plays out before we start making these bold statements and passing judgement on the people who are clearly, unquestionably more qualified than any of us.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:11 PM
Well, after all, Zenyatta is going for a second Apple Blossom.
She beat Ginger Punch there 2 years ago, herself a champion.
I really hope Rachel makes it there in a month.How is this a response to my post?

horses4courses
03-13-2010, 07:12 PM
The irony of all this is that they probably ran similar Beyers.

gm10
03-13-2010, 07:13 PM
Zenyatta is a freak. She was looking for the hole. I don't think I've seen a horse do that. Mike Smith is just a passenger.

yes I agree
she looks rather sweet, but when she is on the racetrack she manhandles every horse that dares to cross her path - true warrior who acts like a ballerina - must be the LA air

horses4courses
03-13-2010, 07:14 PM
How is this a response to my post?

Your implying that Zenyatta is inferior to Zardana on dirt.
I doubt that very much.

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 07:14 PM
Right. And that means what exactly? We all know Rachel can lose...she's done it before. More than once before today, correct?

It means that Zardana was much the best and never needs to face rachel again because she already proved she's better. :lol:

Like I said it was the twilight zone around here last year when rachel was running. Nice to get back to reality now.

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 07:14 PM
How do you know Zardana isn't better than Zenyatta on dirt?


The fact that allowance optional claimers went faster earlier in the day at the same distance shows that Zardana may not be better than several horses......

Tom
03-13-2010, 07:14 PM
I think Rachael will come back and run better.
As long as she stays on dirt. Her surface limitations can be side-stepped!
:lol:

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:16 PM
Your implying that Zenyatta is inferior to Zardana on dirt.
I doubt that very much.I asked a question. I didn't imply anything.

Tom
03-13-2010, 07:16 PM
The irony of all this is that they probably ran similar Beyers.

Wait for the CJs.....I want to see the pace for both races.

Show Me the Wire
03-13-2010, 07:19 PM
In what way? Her stride was off compared to last year, she offered no resistence to the winner, Borel aked her to run and she couldn't.

In what way did she look good? She had a perfect trip, a target to run at, first run to the wire and fractions well within her established ability and the winner beat her easily.

I don't see any positives in this race, especially combined with the controversial works.

I refrained form posting about Rachel's works, because I did not want to be accused of Rachel bashing and so forth, but her works were troublesome. She has been exhibiting tendencies to lug or drift out in the lane, her stride and the carrying of her head, etc.

I hoped I would have seen a different performance today, then the one predicted by the works. Today's loss seems to be due to a liitle more than being short.

And I am very sad about it.

Kimsus
03-13-2010, 07:20 PM
What this should illustrate is being undefeated for 3 racing years and 1 race is not an easy feat, Zenyatta just finds ways of winning, when an excuse looked apparent. We saw Rachel undefeated last yr and in my opinion people got carried in the manner she won. True today was a prep and hopefully we will still see her in the Apple Blossom which I fully expect will happen. JJ will want to make this race a distant memory, however if this was Sheriff's third stringer in the barn, it doesn't auger well for Rachel fans when Zenyatta lines up with Zardana, Rachel and whoever else is going to be there.

Gone2Golf
03-13-2010, 07:22 PM
Too bad for racing...but no tears for Jackson. Got what they deserved and exposed her as false HOY due to inferior 3yo competition last year.

BluegrassProf
03-13-2010, 07:23 PM
Because the rachel hype machine created this monster.Yes indeed.

Unless they're being too secretive.

Or outright misleading.

And as opposed to any other hype machine.

:D

The avalanche of ridiculousness grows by the split-second. No forest for the trees.

For the final record, for the upteenth exasperated time: There's absolutely nothing hyped about a clear, clear HoY campaign. We all beg of you...move on.

I also recommend watching preps, individual races, and whole-season campaigns for exactly what they are...if nothing else, last season should've absolutely taught you that.

As always, the rhetoric is going to be far more foolish than the reality. Looking forward to the next match about 135%. :)

Dahoss9698
03-13-2010, 07:23 PM
Too bad for racing...but no tears for Jackson. Got what they deserved and exposed her as false HOY due to inferior 3yo competition last year.

Sharp post.

Somehow what she accomplished last year is diminished by her coming back not as good as last year. Makes sense.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:23 PM
And I am very sad about it.Yeah, I'll bet you are...

And when have you ever refrained from posting anything? Come on man....:lol:

Now, instead of being accused as a Rachel-basher, should we accuse you of redboarding? :lol:

It's easy to say all this stuff after she actually loses.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:25 PM
exposed her as false HOY due to inferior 3yo competition last year.You forgot the inferior older competition she beat too...:lol:

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 07:25 PM
It means that Zardana was much the best and never needs to face rachel again because she already proved she's better. :lol:

Like I said it was the twilight zone around here last year when rachel was running. Nice to get back to reality now.



It is simply amazing to me the blinkers that all of the Rachel backers are wearing right now. I am a Rachel backer and I will say it.....based on today's results, I was wrong....Zenyatta was awesome and Rachel ran poorly.....it is amazing how people dont view today as a big deal.....isnt the point of racing to WIN THE RACE.....that field was pathetic and the final time wasnt even better than allowance horses earlier in the day.....Rachel people crowed when she won HOY and today she was humbled. Stop denying it and making excuses, give Zenyatta her due and hope they race against each other in April......

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:29 PM
It is simply amazing to me the blinkers that all of the Rachel backers are wearing right now. I am a Rachel backer and I will say it.....based on today's results, I was wrong....Zenyatta was awesome and Rachel ran poorly.....it is amazing how people dont view today as a big deal.....isnt the point of racing to WIN THE RACE.....that field was pathetic and the final time wasnt even better than allowance horses earlier in the day.....Rachel people crowed when she won HOY and today she was humbled. Stop denying it and making excuses, give Zenyatta her due and hope they race against each other in April......You know, I actually thought you were better than the drivel you just posted. I guess I was wrong.

Yeah, the point of every horse entered in every race EVER is to ALWAYS WIN. Horses are never entered into a race as a prep...never entered in a race where the instructions are "don't get her killed today."

I'm flat out amazed at the conclusions you are willing to make based on a prep race off a SIX MONTH LAYOFF....

Actual Headline in the Daily Racing Form Saturday:

RACHEL MAY NEED THIS ONE

Steve 'StatMan'
03-13-2010, 07:32 PM
She tried hard and stayed on in the stretch. Maybe the competitive prep race will tune her up for the AB or wherever they decide to run her next.

Show Me the Wire
03-13-2010, 07:32 PM
Yeah, I'll bet you are...

And when have you ever refrained from posting anything? Come on man....:lol:

Now, instead of being accused as a Rachel-basher, should we accuse you of redboarding? :lol:

It's easy to say all this stuff after she actually loses.

Because, I didn't want to be accused of being something I am not. You don't see me posting about Zenyatta's win. I am not posting about Rachel being a loser or being inferior, I am only posting my observations about the race in conjunction with the works. BTW all that I ever post is my observations, even though some wrongly interpret it as bashing connections.

You can accuse me of redboarding, but if you remember, I brought up the subject of injury prior to the DeJulio reporting.

I am really sad to see a young star of the game, possibly sidelined or retired due to a physical problem.

I answered your question with specifics why I thought whe looked bad. Now I ask you why do you think she looked good while losing?

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 07:33 PM
I think she ran a 91 or 92 today. I don't think this was a matter of needing a race. I hope I'm wrong b/c I'm a huge RA fan.

Dahoss9698
03-13-2010, 07:33 PM
As a Rachel backer, I'm not wearing any blinkers. The race today was very disappoining. While I don't doubt she needed the race, I fear the Woodward gutted her last year.

This wasn't the same Rachel Alexandra I saw last year. Not even close. I hope Asmussen can get her right, but I doubt it. I don't think we'll see her in the Apple Blossom unless she is 110% and I don't see how that is going to happen.

To me it looked like she ran hard down the lane and Borel definitely asked her. She tried to fight, but she couldn't. I didn't think Zardana could beat her and I was wrong. I think she'll be retired soon. But, I hope I'm wrong about that too.

However, what happened today doesn't diminish anything she did last year. She was a deserving winner of HOY. Maybe she'll find that form again. I hope so.

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 07:34 PM
You know, I actually thought you were better than the drivel you just posted. I guess I was wrong.

Yeah, the point of every horse entered in every race EVER is to ALWAYS WIN. Horses are never entered into a race as a prep...never entered in a race where the instructions are "don't get her killed today."

I'm flat out amazed at the conclusions you are willing to make based on a prep race off a SIX MONTH LAYOFF....

Actual Headline in the Daily Racing Form Saturday:

RACHEL MAY NEED THIS ONE

Why don't we use what you used last year and look at the money on rachel in the race, just like you did with zenyatta when she won the bc. Rachel was as big a favorite as you can be. Who cares about some headline in the drf? Money talks

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 07:35 PM
As a Rachel backer, I'm not wearing any blinkers. The race today was very disappoining. While I don't doubt she needed the race, I fear the Woodward gutted her last year.

This wasn't the same Rachel Alexandra I saw last year. Not even close. I hope Asmussen can get her right, but I doubt it. I don't think we'll see her in the Apple Blossom unless she is 110% and I don't see how that is going to happen.

To me it looked like she ran hard down the lane and Borel definitely asked her. She tried to fight, but she couldn't. I didn't think Zardana could beat her and I was wrong. I think she'll be retired soon. But, I hope I'm wrong about that too.

However, what happened today doesn't diminish anything she did last year. She was a deserving winner of HOY. Maybe she'll find that form again. I hope so.

A very reasonable post.

joanied
03-13-2010, 07:36 PM
Ohfercryin'outloud...anyone that knocks Rachel will be eating their words once she does get 100% fit... didn't we all know she might need this one...and no doubt, Asmussen told Calvin not to beat her up...
I don't think Calvin having his feet on the dashboard down the backstretch helped her much...but maybe if he let her go, she would have tired...who knows?
I think maybe now Jackson is having some doubts about the Apple Blossom...can they get her 110% by then...I am doubtful of that...I don't like saying anything bad about Jackson, but he jumped the gun with this Apple Blossom showdown...and me thinks he knows that now.
Of course, there is the possibility that this race is exactly what Rachel needed to get her mind set right...6 months is a long time...now she knows she's back, and I hope to see her improove with every trip to the track.

I still wonder about why she is looking to the right so much...maybe that was her way of protesting too much in too short a time...very curious to me.

And I also think everyone knew if anyone could beat Rachel today, it would be Zardana...
and how ironic that a Sherriff's horse was the one to beat the HoY.

It's OK, Rachel...onward & upward:ThmbUp:

tzipi
03-13-2010, 07:37 PM
As a Rachel backer, I'm not wearing any blinkers. The race today was very disappoining. While I don't doubt she needed the race, I fear the Woodward gutted her last year.

This wasn't the same Rachel Alexandra I saw last year. Not even close. I hope Asmussen can get her right, but I doubt it. I don't think we'll see her in the Apple Blossom unless she is 110% and I don't see how that is going to happen.

To me it looked like she ran hard down the lane and Borel definitely asked her. She tried to fight, but she couldn't. I didn't think Zardana could beat her and I was wrong. I think she'll be retired soon. But, I hope I'm wrong about that too.

However, what happened today doesn't diminish anything she did last year. She was a deserving winner of HOY. Maybe she'll find that form again. I hope so.

DaHoss9698 was Kelso done and not the same after he lost most of his layoff comeback races? One was an allowance race! He surely didn't look great or the same running up the track behind weak competition. What did he do after those prep race loses?

only11
03-13-2010, 07:37 PM
As a Rachel backer, I'm not wearing any blinkers. The race today was very disappoining. While I don't doubt she needed the race, I fear the Woodward gutted her last year.

This wasn't the same Rachel Alexandra I saw last year. Not even close. I hope Asmussen can get her right, but I doubt it. I don't think we'll see her in the Apple Blossom unless she is 110% and I don't see how that is going to happen.

To me it looked like she ran hard down the lane and Borel definitely asked her. She tried to fight, but she couldn't. I didn't think Zardana could beat her and I was wrong. I think she'll be retired soon. But, I hope I'm wrong about that too.

However, what happened today doesn't diminish anything she did last year. She was a deserving winner of HOY. Maybe she'll find that form again. I hope so.
Well said

Show Me the Wire
03-13-2010, 07:37 PM
As a Rachel backer, I'm not wearing any blinkers. The race today was very disappoining. While I don't doubt she needed the race, I fear the Woodward gutted her last year.

This wasn't the same Rachel Alexandra I saw last year. Not even close. I hope Asmussen can get her right, but I doubt it. I don't think we'll see her in the Apple Blossom unless she is 110% and I don't see how that is going to happen.

To me it looked like she ran hard down the lane and Borel definitely asked her. She tried to fight, but she couldn't. I didn't think Zardana could beat her and I was wrong. I think she'll be retired soon. But, I hope I'm wrong about that too.

However, what happened today doesn't diminish anything she did last year. She was a deserving winner of HOY. Maybe she'll find that form again. I hope so.

On this we agree.

cpitt84
03-13-2010, 07:37 PM
i guess i am just wanting her to be undefeated this season. truly great horses dont have more than 3 losses, in my opinion.

just disappointing.

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 07:39 PM
i guess i am just wanting her to be undefeated this season. truly great horses dont have more than 3 losses, in my opinion.

just disappointing.

Why? Doesnt it depend on how many times they start?

Kimsus
03-13-2010, 07:40 PM
As a Rachel backer, I'm not wearing any blinkers. The race today was very disappoining. While I don't doubt she needed the race, I fear the Woodward gutted her last year.

This wasn't the same Rachel Alexandra I saw last year. Not even close. I hope Asmussen can get her right, but I doubt it. I don't think we'll see her in the Apple Blossom unless she is 110% and I don't see how that is going to happen.

To me it looked like she ran hard down the lane and Borel definitely asked her. She tried to fight, but she couldn't. I didn't think Zardana could beat her and I was wrong. I think she'll be retired soon. But, I hope I'm wrong about that too.

However, what happened today doesn't diminish anything she did last year. She was a deserving winner of HOY. Maybe she'll find that form again. I hope so.

I don't think she has much chance in the Apple Blossom either even with Steve Asmussen pulling out all the stops. She would have to improve 5-7 lengths just to be competitive against Zenyatta. What this does illustrate is people are too quick to annoint greatness from 1 race or 1 season in this case. She had a HOY type season in 09, but when people knock horses like Cigar or Zenyatta who have done it at the top level for multiple seasons, I hope they remember this day. These type of horses always never get the credit they deserve.

horses4courses
03-13-2010, 07:40 PM
Instead of being a 3-5, or 1-2, M/L favorite for the Oaklawn race,
Rachel Alexandra has to be odds against making the race.

lamboguy
03-13-2010, 07:41 PM
even though RACHEL ALEXANDRA has beaten older males, this is still her first race as a 4 year old. throughout the years i have found that this is usually the toughest race to win, the first race back facing older. no doubt if RACHEL fires like she did last year she will be mighty tough. i have the feeling that she is only about 80% here, that may be good enough to win, but i wouldn't invest in it. as far as ZENYATTA goes, she looks like an absolute cinch today.

even if RACHEL doesn't run at 100% today i still love her in the apple blossom when the 2 of them face off. i don't think that steve asmussen is looking for a 20 length victory today where all RACHEL wound up doing is getting a paid workout. steve wants the main prize 3 weeks from now.


this was my prior post, and i still think she ran a tad better than i had honestly expected. the $64k question is going to be if assmussen and blasi can get her in tip top shape in the next 3 weeks. if you see her in the gate in hot springs, you can now invest in her abilities, and more than likely not as the favorite after today's perception of the race.

Dahoss9698
03-13-2010, 07:41 PM
DaHoss9698 was Kelso done and not the same after he lost most of his layoff comeback races? One was an allowance race! He surely didn't look great or the same running up the track behind weak competition. What did he do after those prep race loses?

Kelso was decades ago. I'm on your side. I'd love to see her get back to the horse she was last year. I hope she can. I'm just not sure it's going to happen.

Tom
03-13-2010, 07:44 PM
Why? Doesnt it depend on how many times they start?

Especially if they only start 4 times! :lol:

tzipi
03-13-2010, 07:45 PM
Kelso was decades ago. I'm on your side. I'd love to see her get back to the horse she was last year. I hope she can. I'm just not sure it's going to happen.

Whether Kelso was decades or yesterday, it's still the same. Kelso lost many races off a layoff so did many greats but racing people don't know that. But hey I hear you, let's hope they stay on track and know this was just a prep and not her 3rd or 4th race in. Will get better. :ThmbUp:

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 07:45 PM
even though RACHEL ALEXANDRA has beaten older males, this is still her first race as a 4 year old. throughout the years i have found that this is usually the toughest race to win, the first race back facing older. no doubt if RACHEL fires like she did last year she will be mighty tough. i have the feeling that she is only about 80% here, that may be good enough to win, but i wouldn't invest in it. as far as ZENYATTA goes, she looks like an absolute cinch today.

even if RACHEL doesn't run at 100% today i still love her in the apple blossom when the 2 of them face off. i don't think that steve asmussen is looking for a 20 length victory today where all RACHEL wound up doing is getting a paid workout. steve wants the main prize 3 weeks from now.


this was my prior post, and i still think she ran a tad better than i had honestly expected. the $64k question is going to be if assmussen and blasi can get her in tip top shape in the next 3 weeks. if you see her in the gate in hot springs, you can now invest in her abilities, and more than likely not as the favorite after today's perception of the race.

I assume you bet against her then, because she raced very poorly (relative to expectations). I think she regressed by about 20 Beyer pts off her last race.

JustRalph
03-13-2010, 07:46 PM
I have seen short horses before........

and I saw another one today........... end of story

unless she is hurt.........that's all I see

Dahoss9698
03-13-2010, 07:47 PM
I don't think she has much chance in the Apple Blossom either even with Steve Asmussen pulling out all the stops. She would have to improve 5-7 lengths just to be competitive against Zenyatta. What this does illustrate is people are too quick to annoint greatness from 1 race or 1 season in this case. She had a HOY type season in 09, but when people knock horses like Cigar or Zenyatta who have done it at the top level for multiple seasons, I hope they remember this day. These type of horses always never get the credit they deserve.

I have been split on Rachel's place in history since last summer. I don't think we'll ever see a 3 year old filly do what she did last year, but at the same time she wasn't beating any greats. Then again, she was doing something no other filly had done.

But Zenyatta isn't getting the credit she deserves? Really? We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:48 PM
She had a HOY type season in 09, but when people knock horses like Cigar or Zenyatta who have done it at the top level for multiple seasons, I hope they remember this day.When the hell did Zenyatta "do it" at the top level for multiple seasons? She had ONE RACE in her whole career where she faced "top level."

Zenytta isn't better than Rachel until she beats her on the traditional American dirt surface. When she does that, call me.

Next thing you'll tell me is Cigar was better than Theatrical on the the turf simply because Cigar "did it" at the top level for multiple seasons.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:50 PM
I assume you bet against her then, because she raced very poorly (relative to expectations).Man, the way some are framing this race, you'd think Rachel pulled a "Big Brown Belmont" out there today...

Whatever.

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 07:52 PM
When the hell did Zenyatta "do it" at the top level for multiple seasons? She had ONE RACE in her whole career where she faced "top level."

Zenytta isn't better than Rachel until she beats her on the traditional American dirt surface. When she does that, call me.


To deny that zenyatta has been at the top level for 2 years is really lame on your part. Her 08 ladies classic was the best performance of the entire bc. She would have beat the 08 classic field had she been given the chance (hey if rachel fans can do it I can too)

So zenyatta has to beat rachel for you to admit who's better? What if she were to win the bc classic this year while rachel is at home again. Then?

Ian Meyers
03-13-2010, 07:52 PM
Kiss the Apple Blossom goodbye now no way Racheal goes there now.

Unless she doesn't come out of the race well she's going to OP. It's classic Asmussen to leave the good ones just a little short of their best first out. she will be a lot tighter in Hot Springs and today's race just bumped her price from 6/5 to 9/5. ;)

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 07:52 PM
You know, I actually thought you were better than the drivel you just posted. I guess I was wrong.

Yeah, the point of every horse entered in every race EVER is to ALWAYS WIN. Horses are never entered into a race as a prep...never entered in a race where the instructions are "don't get her killed today."

I'm flat out amazed at the conclusions you are willing to make based on a prep race off a SIX MONTH LAYOFF....

Actual Headline in the Daily Racing Form Saturday:

RACHEL MAY NEED THIS ONE


Wait, you mean you thought I was better than the "drivel" I posted and based on ONE post, you are jumping to the conclusion that I am not that good....funny, isnt that the same mentality you are jumping on me for in terms of my opinion/analysis of Rachel's race???? Kind of hypocritical isnt it????

What conclusions did I jump to????? I said that based on today's results, Zenyatta seems better right now.....my point was more how so many people droned on and on about Rachel being a superhorse and cant seem to be humbled at all when she gets thumped and just make up excuses......as far as "She might need the race", you have been around the game long enough to realize that was typical trainer CYA posturing and I dont find it an applicable excuse for getting beaten in a very poor field....


As far as my post being "drivel", I think that your reaction was more geared to me disagreeing with you and less to the content of the post.....I love the site and you do a great job with it, but I will always risk having my thoughts being called "drivel" if I disagree with anyone, including you.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:55 PM
So zenyatta has to beat rachel for you to admit who's better? What if she were to win the bc classic this year while rachel is at home again. Then?If Zenyatta wins the BC Classic on dirt this year, and Rachel is out, then that changes everything. My position all along does not make this statement hypocritical.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 07:57 PM
Wait, you mean you thought I was better than the "drivel" I posted and based on ONE post, you are jumping to the conclusion that I am not that good....funny, isnt that the same mentality you are jumping on me for in terms of my opinion/analysis of Rachel's race???? Kind of hypocritical isnt it????

What conclusions did I jump to????? I said that based on today's results, Zenyatta seems better right now.....my point was more how so many people droned on and on about Rachel being a superhorse and cant seem to be humbled at all when she gets thumped and just make up excuses......as far as "She might need the race", you have been around the game long enough to realize that was typical trainer CYA posturing and I dont find it an applicable excuse for getting beaten in a very poor field....


As far as my post being "drivel", I think that your reaction was more geared to me disagreeing with you and less to the content of the post.....I love the site and you do a great job with it, but I will always risk having my thoughts being called "drivel" if I disagree with anyone, including you.The drivel comment applied to conclusions you are willing to make based on a prep race off a six month layoff. They are absurd conclusions in my opinion.

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 07:57 PM
Unless she doesn't come out of the race well she's going to OP. It's classic Asmussen to leave the good ones just a little short of their best first out. she will be a lot tighter in Hot Springs and today's race just bumped her price from 6/5 to 9/5. ;)


If today was a "little short" of where she needs to be, she is going to be in big trouble

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 07:57 PM
If Zenyatta wins the BC Classic on dirt this year, and Rachel is out, then that changes everything. My position all along does not make this statement hypocritical.

I didn't get an answer there. Let's say they never race and rachel suffers the usual poor performance injury in the summer and retires. Zenyatta stays undefeated all year in cali on synthetic and then wins the classic. Which horse is better to you?

Kimsus
03-13-2010, 07:57 PM
But Zenyatta isn't getting the credit she deserves? Really? We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

She still has her detractors as she does her admirers, time will tell if she can sway the rest over to her side, I suspect it will take the BC Classic this yr at Churchill to do it, though ironically a Woodward win should suffice. I couldn't resist.

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 07:58 PM
Man, the way some are framing this race, you'd think Rachel pulled a "Big Brown Belmont" out there today...

Whatever.

Pace,

She regressed by about 20 Beyer pts today, at least by my estimates (I look forward to CJ's figure, as he's much better on that front than me, but I think I'm in the ballpark). You can't honestly say you weren't at least modestly surprised by the loss today, can you? I've always enjoyed your vigorous and spirited defense of RA (I'm a huge fan, too), but today she didn't race that well (again relative to expectations). If you disagree with that, you should have bet against her, too, as most thought she'd crush that field.

neumies boy
03-13-2010, 07:58 PM
joanied,
Totally agree. And remember, too, she's filled out and grown a little more so she has to adjust to that.

But, good post.

rrpic6
03-13-2010, 08:00 PM
I love seeing 1/9 shots getting stiffed. When you look up stiff jobs in the dictionary, Calvin "Ridin' Wide" Borel might just replace that old picture of Pat Day that's in there.

RR

Kimsus
03-13-2010, 08:00 PM
When the hell did Zenyatta "do it" at the top level for multiple seasons? She had ONE RACE in her whole career where she faced "top level."

Zenytta isn't better than Rachel until she beats her on the traditional American dirt surface. When she does that, call me.

Next thing you'll tell me is Cigar was better than Theatrical on the the turf simply because Cigar "did it" at the top level for multiple seasons.

She has been at top form for better part of 3 racing years and a race now. You obviously know racing, how many horses can maintain that form? Whether it's dirt, poly or turf? That was the jist of my comment, nothing to do with beating Rachel on dirt.

lamboguy
03-13-2010, 08:00 PM
I assume you bet against her then, because she raced very poorly (relative to expectations). I think she regressed by about 20 Beyer pts off her last race.
you got it right. i suspect she regressed 10-25 byer points off her last race. but keep in mind that today she was involved in the race today at all points.

i remember having a few good horses that got beat off the layoff running for the first time at 4. so i am relating it to this great filly. ZENYATTA has already been through it twice before.

also after watching the sherriff's horse beat rachel today, you have to think that he knows how to go from synthetic to conventional. so ZENYATTA will still be tough in the apple blossom. i highly doubt that ZENYATTA can beat RACHEL in that race due to the distance of it. that is of course if the race happens.

hopefully neither one had an injury in their races today and they matchup

Dahoss9698
03-13-2010, 08:01 PM
She still has her detractors as she does her admirers, time will tell if she can sway the rest over to her side, I suspect it will take the BC Classic this yr at Churchill to do it, though ironically a Woodward win should suffice. I couldn't resist.

I don't think she has detractors. It's more like people who don't think she's the greatest ever. Big difference.

dccprez
03-13-2010, 08:01 PM
i guess i am just wanting her to be undefeated this season. truly great horses dont have more than 3 losses, in my opinion.

just disappointing.

*heavy sigh*

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 08:02 PM
I love seeing 1/9 shots getting stiffed. When you look up stiff jobs in the dictionary, Calvin "Ridin' Wide" Borel might just replace that old picture of Pat Day that's in there.

RR

Are you delusional or are you joking?

joanied
03-13-2010, 08:02 PM
She simply didn't look right. Just watch the head-on replay and how she's carrying her head. Hope I'm wrong.

I keep saying that...about how she's holding her head...and folks are 'looking' at me funny...I mentioned it after her first work and she's not quit doing it.

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 08:03 PM
I keep saying that...about how she's holding her head...and folks are 'looking' at me funny...I mentioned it after her first work and she's not quit doing it.

So I'm not crazy. I was hoping I was on this matter actually.

bisket
03-13-2010, 08:04 PM
wooohooo!!!!! the big guy has got his ears pinned after this one.... :D

horses lose its part of the game. classhandy has a point poly track race beyers are always a little low because of the slow pace up front. zardana may be better than we think.
i got news for the rachel crowd. so is zenyatta :p
i had a feeling rachel was in trouble when the 1/2 mile was 47 and change. she wasn't fit for sure. i hope she is next month.

Kimsus
03-13-2010, 08:06 PM
I don't think she has detractors. It's more like people who don't think she's the greatest ever. Big difference.

Greatest ever, not based on what she has accomplished thus far. But one of the greatest I can certainly live with. If she ends up at Churchill in the Classic this year and wins that on old fashion dirt as PA likes to mention, and I know it's a big but if, then what?

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 08:06 PM
The drivel comment applied to conclusions you are willing to make based on a prep race off a six month layoff. They are absurd conclusions in my opinion.

Obviously you are pretty upset because it is carrying over to your posts....you interjected your overall opinion of me into your response to ONE post I made where you disagreed with a conclusion I drew and that is absurd IMO......plus, you couldnt even acknowledge the hypocrisy of that, as you are all over people for drawing conclusions based on one race.....again, the only conclusion I drew was that BASED ON TODAYS RESULTS, advantage Zenyatta...do you agree or disagree with this conclusion and if so, why????

bisket
03-13-2010, 08:07 PM
I keep saying that...about how she's holding her head...and folks are 'looking' at me funny...I mentioned it after her first work and she's not quit doing it.
its the fig 8. they trying get more control of her, and she's not to happy about it. maybe after this one assmussen will throw up the white flag, and face the truth they'll never slow her down enough to get a mile and a quarter.

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 08:09 PM
its the fig 8. they trying get more control of her, and she's not to happy about it. maybe after this one assmussen will throw up the white flag, and face the truth they'll never slow her down enough to get a mile and a quarter.

Gosh, that's odd action to result from a figure 8.

Charlie D
03-13-2010, 08:11 PM
Goldikova beaten 10+ lengths on her first start in 09, Ouija Board beaten 9 lengths on her first start in 06



Defeats after a break are not the end of the world as the ladies above have shown.

Dahoss9698
03-13-2010, 08:15 PM
Greatest ever, not based on what she has accomplished thus far. But one of the greatest I can certainly live with. If she ends up at Churchill in the Classic this year and wins that on old fashion dirt as PA likes to mention, and I know it's a big but if, then what?

Then she certainly belongs in the conversation. Let's get through March before we crown her though.

bisket
03-13-2010, 08:15 PM
someone related to me they think the head jerking to the side may be from her having trouble learning to switch leads when she was young. she may be very touchy with the bit, and the fig 8 brought on this reaction again. i am starting to have that opinion myself.

neumies boy
03-13-2010, 08:17 PM
Another point that someone made was about Kelso losing his first races after a layoff. Why does it seem that people get behind a horse and then when they lose it's like the horse isn't what they thought they'd be? Horses do lose races. It doesn't take away from their accomplishments. It appears like some fans give up too easily and detractors are so quick to say I told you so. Gee, if we could all be perfect all the time!

HRTV just showed stats on female HOYs who lost their first race back: Moccassin, All Along Lady's Secret and Rachel. Azeri the only one to win first race after winning HOY.

So I won't give up on her. I was concerned she wasn't 100% and could lose, but I'll give her time.

toetoe
03-13-2010, 08:23 PM
No i dont i dont think she should of ran in the first place. [sic]



No worries. She ran in the second place. (:Beaming like a kindergartner.)

rrpic6
03-13-2010, 08:26 PM
Are you delusional or are you joking?

Neither. Look up a Grade 1 race about 15 years that Pat Day flew in to California to ride. Can't remember the name..trained by Mandella, Vienna or McAnally. He finishes last in a 4 or 5 horse field. Was looking for a similar result today...put some show money on everyone but RA. I'd do it again....if she does not retire after today.

RR

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 08:30 PM
You know, I actually thought you were better than the drivel you just posted. I guess I was wrong.

Yeah, the point of every horse entered in every race EVER is to ALWAYS WIN. Horses are never entered into a race as a prep...never entered in a race where the instructions are "don't get her killed today."

I'm flat out amazed at the conclusions you are willing to make based on a prep race off a SIX MONTH LAYOFF....

Actual Headline in the Daily Racing Form Saturday:

RACHEL MAY NEED THIS ONE



Actual words from Asmussen after the race:


"If I thought she'd get beat, I wouldnt have run her today"....

johnhannibalsmith
03-13-2010, 08:31 PM
I'm sure that the Rachel connections are disappointed. But, I'm fairly certain that they would have been quite a bit more disappointed if she had run one length better and eked out the win while in an all out drive, being asked for all that she had to offer. It looked like a prep to me, albeit a prep that didn't play out the way I suspect most involved with her really expected.

Three observations:

1) Regardless of the final time and Beyer figs (which isn't to trivialize those factors), I think that Zardana exposed herself as a pretty nice filly. I liked the way that she ran and perhaps she isn't elite, but it doesn't take much anymore to be a top three or top five older female, and she looks like she may in that caliber.

2) I doubt that Calvin allows Rachel to be headed late again in an effort to "rate" her past the quarter pole. She seems like a filly that swells up and digs deep when she makes the lead turning for home and fights to maintain it. I'm not sure that "extra" heart that you see when she's fending off rivals late kicks in when she's in a battle deep in the lane trying to make up ground on a leader. She has an attitude and a way that she likes to run. I suspect that any effort to make her "different" will cease and decist in lieu of all efforts to make her happy.

3) She's a filly that had a tough campaign last year. It would not shock me if she isn't quite the same filly that she was last year. But, I'll wait until after her next start to draw any conclusions about what she is or isn't at this point in her career.

Carry on and please include my post in many pointed disputes so I have a stake in this twelve page war. :cool:

Ian Meyers
03-13-2010, 08:36 PM
Actual words from Asmussen after the race:


"If I thought she'd get beat, I wouldnt have run her today"....

The Asmussen's are a pretty sharp bunch. I think deep down they expected her to be short, and someone on this board who I know and trust and who knows the family and their training methods very well told me 4 months ago that she would get beaten first time out in 2010.

I think it's a little premature to throw her over the side. And I'd wait for CJ to weigh in because I think her race today is going to come up faster than some think.

Kimsus
03-13-2010, 08:37 PM
Then she certainly belongs in the conversation. Let's get through March before we crown her though.

She's not without question marks, ie. dirt. I think she will handle it, though she still has to win the Apple Blossom. No one's crowning her yet, I am of the opinion that she may be just as good if not better on dirt numbers wise.

cpitt84
03-13-2010, 08:40 PM
I just dont see anyone beating zenyatta. The way she envelopes her opponents by the far turn is remarkable.

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 08:43 PM
The Asmussen's are a pretty sharp bunch. I think deep down they expected her to be short, and someone on this board who I know and trust and who knows the family and their training methods very well told me 4 months ago that she would get beaten first time out in 2010.

I think it's a little premature to throw her over the side. And I'd wait for CJ to weigh in because I think her race today is going to come up faster than some think.


What gives you the impression the race will "come up faster than some think"? Look at the other times for the day and the track appeared pretty fast....an allowance horse ran faster than she did at the same distance....

The Hawk
03-13-2010, 08:46 PM
Because the rachel hype machine created this monster. She's "much the best" remember? She was going to come back as a monster as a 4yo and dominate the best males. She starts the year off with a perfect trip and loses to a member of her own sex.

That last line suggests you have something to learn about pace. That was hardly a perfect trip. The winner, on the other hand, DID have a perfect trip. I'm not making an excuse for her, I think she should have won even with a difficult trip, but that was NOT a perfect trip. She didn't have it easy. Where did the pacesetter finish?

Zenyatta, on the other hand, overcame a lack of early speed in the race AND traffic trouble. Most impressive.

The Hawk
03-13-2010, 08:54 PM
i guess i am just wanting her to be undefeated this season. truly great horses dont have more than 3 losses, in my opinion.

just disappointing.

Secretariat lost five times.

Cratos
03-13-2010, 08:54 PM
Shireffs beats Rachel with Zardana:confused:

Rachel Alexandra’s loss is not detrimental and she is not the first HOTY winner to lose in the first start of the next year after winning the HOTY award.

If memory serves me correctly, Affirmed lost his first start in 1979 and before the year was over a turf writer for the DRF would write: “……Affirmed, and Pincay with 130 pounds is the best there is….” Rachel is a speed horse and appeared to be short in the pedestrian pace of the race and Borel did keep her wide.

She will win this year and she will win with authority; I am not concerned.

Zenyatta was her old self and the fact that her trainer kept her in training paid off as she covered the last eighth of the Santa Margarita in 11.83 seconds which is very, very good and she was toting 127 pounds.

What do these two races say about the pending Apple Blossom meeting between Rachel and Zenyatta?

Absolutely nothing if both horses came back to their respective barns in good health and form.

However I have previously given the edge to Zenyatta in the Apple Blossom, but Rachel will be very tough

David-LV
03-13-2010, 09:00 PM
The pace of the race got her beat, which is what could happen to Zenyatta in about 90 seconds, since there's little speed in this race.

The great thing about Zenyatta is that no matter how fast or how slow the pace is, we still get the same result. This Zenyatta is the greatest closing mare of all time, bar none.

_______
David-LV

Bluesthestandard
03-13-2010, 09:04 PM
Nice to see the real HOTY win today for fun....again... Rachael chickens out in 3 weeks..stay tuned.

Stillriledup
03-13-2010, 09:10 PM
Don't believe what you hear from the connections. Don't listen to the jockey, trainer or owner. Here's the truth. Rachel was not 'short', Rachel didn't 'need' the race either. Asmussen is amazing off the layoff, he wins races with first time starters and long layoff horses all the time, that's his specialty. Rachel was obviously not even close to herself and the funny thing is that if John didn't ship Zardana to FG, Rachel wins by 10+ lengths and everyone is going nuts over how great she is when she would have run the same race.

I'd be surprised if Z met Rachel for 5 million bucks. After all, why would Oaklawn want to put up a 5 million dollar pot for Zenyatta to race against a horse who lost to a horse who's a virtual nobody?

Hopefully the Oaklawn owner (for his sake) made the stipulation that both Rachel and Z had to win their prep races for the 5 million to be offered.

Btw, anyone who bought into what Calvin said is a buffoon. What's he going to say, she's no good? Child Please.

joanied
03-13-2010, 09:12 PM
I love how people suddenly become trainers in the middle of discussions. Well, I'm the Easter Bunny...beat that.

I am Santa Claus:lol:

GMB@BP
03-13-2010, 09:15 PM
Then she certainly belongs in the conversation. Let's get through March before we crown her though.

She's easily one of the best fillies of all time, her record is pretty good if you line them up with the other fillies.

Mineshaft
03-13-2010, 09:16 PM
Asking a horse to win first time in 8 months on the longest stretch in racing and not fully cranked is asking a lot. It was a good prep but i dont think she should run against Zen until she has about 2-3 more races under her belt.

GMB@BP
03-13-2010, 09:16 PM
Secretariat lost five times.

Something that makes never losing all that more impressive, especially considering the class of races.

Charlie D
03-13-2010, 09:23 PM
Don't believe what you hear from the connections. Don't listen to the jockey, trainer or owner. Here's the truth. Rachel was not 'short', Rachel didn't 'need' the race either. Asmussen is amazing off the layoff, he wins races with first time starters and long layoff horses all the time, that's his specialty. Rachel was obviously not even close to herself and the funny thing is that if John didn't ship Zardana to FG, Rachel wins by 10+ lengths and everyone is going nuts over how great she is when she would have run the same race.

I'd be surprised if Z met Rachel for 5 million bucks. After all, why would Oaklawn want to put up a 5 million dollar pot for Zenyatta to race against a horse who lost to a horse who's a virtual nobody?

Hopefully the Oaklawn owner (for his sake) made the stipulation that both Rachel and Z had to win their prep races for the 5 million to be offered.

Btw, anyone who bought into what Calvin said is a buffoon. What's he going to say, she's no good? Child Please.

DRF.com

Rachel may need this one


Steve Asmussen


So, here is the balancing act: Rachel needs a race to ready for the Apple Blossom, but given her fitness level, the last thing Asmussen wants is a gut-wrenching effort that sets Rachel back.

"We need this to be a stepping-stone and a prep," Asmussen said. "We want a good, physical exertion."




I have bolded what i think are the keywords.

Stillriledup
03-13-2010, 09:25 PM
DRF.com

Rachel may need this one


Steve Asmussen



I have bolded what i think are the keywords.

Trainers lie. They always say the horse might need one incase they get beat.

Show Me the Wire
03-13-2010, 09:27 PM
If they wanted a good physical exertion, they didn't get one. A physical exertion, yes; not a good one though.

joanied
03-13-2010, 09:27 PM
joanied,
Totally agree. And remember, too, she's filled out and grown a little more so she has to adjust to that.

But, good post.

Thanks:)

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 09:28 PM
[/B]

That last line suggests you have something to learn about pace. That was hardly a perfect trip. The winner, on the other hand, DID have a perfect trip. I'm not making an excuse for her, I think she should have won even with a difficult trip, but that was NOT a perfect trip. She didn't have it easy. Where did the pacesetter finish?

You are using where the long shot pace setter finished as proof she did not have a great trip? And I'm the one that needs to learn something about pace? :lol:

Skanoochies
03-13-2010, 09:31 PM
The thing that I find impressive about Zen is her running style. I think it is pretty well agreed that horses with an E, E/P type style have a big advantage over big closers ( Zen, Silky Sullivan,etc.) yet here we have a horse with absolutely no early speed, has to overcome being force wide, getting boxed in, Mike Smith, and yet 15 times has overcome it all.

Kudos to her. Amazing.

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 09:32 PM
DRF.com

Rachel may need this one


Steve Asmussen



I have bolded what i think are the keywords.



I have bolded the key words from Asmussen AFTER the race...


"If I thought she'd get beat I wouldn't have run her today,"

joanied
03-13-2010, 09:35 PM
So I'm not crazy. I was hoping I was on this matter actually.

It's been a concern for me...guess we're not crazy afterall...I thought maybe it's the bit change...thye changed it to relax her, but, IMO, thst generally doesn't work...maybe it's something else...her works sent me into atailspin, but when I mentioned her head tossing, turning to the right, not wanting to change leads...well, now most everyone is thinking about that. She looked, I don't know, just not into it during the post parade...
maybe this race will wake her up, maybe, I hope, it's nothing at all...time will tell.

I'm glad Calvin didn't whip her to the wire...he warapped her up the instant he knew it wasn't going to happen today.

I'm as bummed as can be...but unlike some here that are all of a sudden saying she shouldn't have been HoY, yadda, yadda, yadda...I will wait and see what comes out of the Asmussen barn tomorrow.

And, despite it all...did she disgrace herself...nope...not in my eyes.

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 09:38 PM
Secretariat lost five times.

Well that only proves the "three loss" rule is....ridiculous!

The Hawk
03-13-2010, 09:39 PM
You are using where the long shot pace setter finished as proof she did not have a great trip? And I'm the one that needs to learn something about pace? :lol:

The fractions, and the way the race set up, should tell you the winner had a perfect trip. You were probably one of those guys who knocked her Woodward win, an incredible race, because she "only" won by a head.

Show Me the Wire
03-13-2010, 09:39 PM
You have to believe Rachel's connection may have expected a loss 4 months ago, because they wanted to try and change her running style. With that said, I am sure they did not expect such a weak group to be their competition and such a poor performance in a losing effort against this group.

The above is predicated on the assumption that no physical problems were being experienced. Throw in the possibility of a soft tissue injury and you have a different set of expectations all together.

joanied
03-13-2010, 09:40 PM
its the fig 8. they trying get more control of her, and she's not to happy about it. maybe after this one assmussen will throw up the white flag, and face the truth they'll never slow her down enough to get a mile and a quarter.


Saratoga Mike (quote)
"Gosh, that's odd action to result from a figure 8.'

I just mentioned that in another post...maybe they need to go back to whatever bit she was wearing before they switched. You just can't get some horses to 'relax'...they just need to let her do her thing, IMO.

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 09:40 PM
The fractions, and the way the race set up, should tell you the winner had a perfect trip. You were probably one of those guys who knocked her Woodward win, an incredible race, because she "only" won by a head.

No I knocked her woodward win when I heard so many on here calling it the best performance of all time.

You still have yet to show why her trip today was not ideal. My guess is because you can't. We are not talking about the winners trip, we are talking about rachel's and yes it was PERFECT.

joanied
03-13-2010, 09:42 PM
someone related to me they think the head jerking to the side may be from her having trouble learning to switch leads when she was young. she may be very touchy with the bit, and the fig 8 brought on this reaction again. i am starting to have that opinion myself.

Didn't I say that a while back, da-bisket?
:faint: :)

Charlie D
03-13-2010, 09:43 PM
I have bolded the key words from Asmussen AFTER the race...


"If I thought she'd get beat I wouldn't have run her today,"


you forgat this section



"She needed the race, that's all," said Borel. "She needed the race more than anything."

That assessment was echoed by Asmussen, who blamed himself for Rachel Alexandra's defeat.

"The filly's lacking fitness," he said. "It was my job to have her there, and I didn't do it."




I've bolded what i think are the keywords

Dahoss9698
03-13-2010, 09:45 PM
She's easily one of the best fillies of all time, her record is pretty good if you line them up with the other fillies.

My point is I don't think she's the best of all time. But you already know that.

Cratos
03-13-2010, 09:47 PM
I find many of these comments about Rachel losing laughable and for those of you who have read my previous comments about Rachel and Zenyatta know that I am Pro-Zenyatta.

What I find strange is that most of the anti-Rachel comments has no historical perspective which says that the posters making such comments are not students of racing history, choose not to acknowledge the historical facts about overwhelming favorites losing, or just came into this game a short time ago.

Therefore in the words of the late Woody Stephens: “if you race them long enough, they will eventually get beat.”

As much as I like and admire Zenyatta I believe if she stay in training long enough she will be beaten.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 09:47 PM
again, the only conclusion I drew was that BASED ON TODAYS RESULTS, advantage Zenyatta...do you agree or disagree with this conclusion and if so, why????That's not how I read your reply. I will go back and read again.

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 09:48 PM
you forgat this section




I've bolded what i think are the keywords



Your initial point was that they didnt expect to win the race and that winning would be a bonus.....Assmussen's words after the race refuted your point clearly......the remarks you posted by Borel and Asmussen have nothing to do with your initial point

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 09:51 PM
Hopefully the Oaklawn owner (for his sake) made the stipulation that both Rachel and Z had to win their prep races for the 5 million to be offered.Wow...I'm really biting my tongue here on this one...

What a joke.

Charlie D
03-13-2010, 09:52 PM
I've not tried making any point RO really, all i have done is post statements by the trainer for you and Stillriledup to consider.


I bolded what i think are keywords to help both of you.

The Hawk
03-13-2010, 09:52 PM
No I knocked her woodward win when I heard so many on here calling it the best performance of all time.

You still have yet to show why her trip today was not ideal. My guess is because you can't. We are not talking about the winners trip, we are talking about rachel's and yes it was PERFECT.

Yes, pressing some of the fastest fractions of the meet at 1 1/16 miles is a perfect trip. The winner sat behind the pacesetters, setting the fast fractions. That's not ideal. You're right.

And you DID knock her Woodward win. That was also a perfect trip, I guess. You win this one. But do me a favor:

Don't ever stop betting. :lol:

GMB@BP
03-13-2010, 09:52 PM
Wow...I'm really biting my tongue here on this one...

What a joke.

You have to admit from a national perspective what little cache this race had is now gone.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 09:53 PM
Something that makes never losing all that more impressive, especially considering the class of races.Huh? The majority of Zenyatta's races were against the same group of nameless Southern California synthetic tomato cans.

GMB@BP
03-13-2010, 09:54 PM
My point is I don't think she's the best of all time. But you already know that.

Its very hard to compare era's to make a definitive statement either way.

I can't say Citation was better than Secretariat, but there were people who swore he was until he got hurt.

bisket
03-13-2010, 09:55 PM
Saratoga Mike (quote)
"Gosh, that's odd action to result from a figure 8.'

I just mentioned that in another post...maybe they need to go back to whatever bit she was wearing before they switched. You just can't get some horses to 'relax'...they just need to let her do her thing, IMO.
rachel's strength is she gets into a really nice rythm, and it carries her speed very nicely for a mile and an eighth. this rating her just throws her off her game. her beginning fractions are almost always the same for this reason. her game is not go a little slower early, and she'll run faster late. my opinion is you slow her first 1/2 to 47 and change. thats how much slower her time will be at the end. she doesn't have a great turn of foot inside the race. she just can grind out fractions over the course of the race.

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 09:55 PM
That's not how I read your reply. I will go back and read again.


That is why I put "based on today's results" before saying I was wrong....if I just said "I was wrong" it may have been drivel and would have been jumping to the kind of conclusions you thought I was......my overall point was that RA losing was a huge deal and it would have been nice to see all of the RA people acknowledge that and admit that today was a defeat of sorts.....

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 09:55 PM
You have to believe Rachel's connection may have expected a loss 4 months ago, because they wanted to try and change her running style.Why would anyone want to change her running style? Her running style is the most advantageous running style to have over a dirt strip.

Just like Zenyatta's running style is the most advantageous to have over most synthetic strips.

keithw84
03-13-2010, 09:55 PM
I find many of these comments about Rachel losing laughable and for those of you who have read my previous comments about Rachel and Zenyatta know that I am Pro-Zenyatta.

What I find strange is that most of the anti-Rachel comments has no historical perspective which says that the posters making such comments are not students of racing history, choose not to acknowledge the historical facts about overwhelming favorites losing, or just came into this game a short time ago.

Therefore in the words of the late Woody Stephens: “if you race them long enough, they will eventually get beat.”

As much as I like and admire Zenyatta I believe if she stay in training long enough she will be beaten.

Well put.

GMB@BP
03-13-2010, 09:56 PM
Huh? The majority of Zenyatta's races were against the same group of nameless Southern California synthetic tomato cans.

This is a played out weak argument, the same type of tomato cans that made Zardana look average in her career to date.

Man you really are hurt at what happened today in a prep race.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 09:56 PM
No I knocked her woodward win when I heard so many on here calling it the best performance of all time.

You still have yet to show why her trip today was not ideal. My guess is because you can't. We are not talking about the winners trip, we are talking about rachel's and yes it was PERFECT.I didn't want to go this route, but for starters, watch how freakin' WIDE Borel takes her around that first turn...

Hey, you asked WHY it wasn't a perfect trip...I'm not making that as an excuse, but you did ask WHY. That is part 1 of WHY.

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 09:57 PM
I've not tried making any point RB really, all i have done is post statements by the trainer for you and Stillriledup to consider.


I bolded what i think are keywords to help both of you.

If you weren't trying to make a point, I doubt you would have bolded anything. Come on Charlie.

Steve 'StatMan'
03-13-2010, 09:58 PM
Why not run 3 races and then tackle Zen? or tackle her next year in the BC Classic. That race is 6 mill which is more than 5 mill if my math is correct.


Why did jackson feel the need to tackle Zen off one prep race? Its stupid plain and simple.

Because the people who own/run Oaklawn were the ones who put up the big money, and their meet ends in Mid-April. If Monmouth was the ones with the race, the big money, and the dates from May through at least September, then 3 preps are in the cards.

Then again, for all that are upset or knocking RA and/or Jackson for not winning (not be much, either), would they be crying not to face Zen if she lost any of the 3 preps?

She's a great racehorse. So is Zenyata. They run for damn good money, as well as the glory for the owners. Hopefully they'll both run, and get their damn good money for either 1st, 2nd, and go on to hopefully more matchups, or at least the next big race with damn good money. And plenty of glory. Not this - oh gee, I might only have the 2nd or 3rd best racing filly/mare after all, damn it, better put her into the breeding shed before she becomes total trash. Please do not miss the sarcasm, anyone, I know there are some passionate people out there that are only one one side of the fence.

Would be funny if both Zenyata and Rachel Alexandra get beat in the Apple Blossum, wouldn't it?

Grits
03-13-2010, 09:58 PM
Thanks CharlieD, for your post--its always interesting how selective folks are when attempting to justify their opinions. The inclusion of prior omissions have a way of putting material in perspective.

Same goes for ignoring history, as Cratos has kindly pointed out. This stuff is, indeed, riotously laughable.

I've never read so many pages of BS, I told ya so, and know it all comments and conclusions in my lifetime, even from one has just shown up and ADMITTED, stating they've only been interested in horseracing since September and doesn't know it all. (Coulda fooled me.)

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 09:59 PM
This is a played out weak argument, the same type of tomato cans that made Zardana look average in her career to date.

Man you really are hurt at what happened today in a prep race.Zardana is now undefeated over dirt, is that correct?

How do people miss the obvious when making comments like this?

Zardana looked average perhaps because she hated synthetics...ever consider that?

Dahoss9698
03-13-2010, 09:59 PM
Its very hard to compare era's to make a definitive statement either way.

I can't say Citation was better than Secretariat, but there were people who swore he was until he got hurt.

Let me ask you a question. If Zenyatta was running in the early to mid 90's do you think she would be undefeated?

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 10:00 PM
I've not tried making any point RO really, all i have done is post statements by the trainer for you and Stillriledup to consider.


I bolded what i think are keywords to help both of you.


You werent trying to make a point? Then, why did you write post 181 and why put something in bold?


I appreciate the fact that you put things in bold but moving forward, I can handle understanding sentences without it

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 10:01 PM
Zardana is now undefeated over dirt, is that correct?

How do people miss the obvious when making comments like this?

Zardana looked average perhaps because she hated synthetics...ever consider that?

This would be a more powerful argument if the winning Beyer was better than a low to mid 90s at best. I don't think it was.

098poi
03-13-2010, 10:01 PM
Don't believe what you hear from the connections. Don't listen to the jockey, trainer or owner. Here's the truth. Rachel was not 'short', Rachel didn't 'need' the race either. Asmussen is amazing off the layoff, he wins races with first time starters and long layoff horses all the time, that's his specialty. Rachel was obviously not even close to herself and the funny thing is that if John didn't ship Zardana to FG, Rachel wins by 10+ lengths and everyone is going nuts over how great she is when she would have run the same race.

I'd be surprised if Z met Rachel for 5 million bucks. After all, why would Oaklawn want to put up a 5 million dollar pot for Zenyatta to race against a horse who lost to a horse who's a virtual nobody?

Hopefully the Oaklawn owner (for his sake) made the stipulation that both Rachel and Z had to win their prep races for the 5 million to be offered.

Btw, anyone who bought into what Calvin said is a buffoon. What's he going to say, she's no good? Child Please.


I think the only stipulation is if one of them doesn't show up neither does the 5 mil.

Grits
03-13-2010, 10:04 PM
The Asmussen's are a pretty sharp bunch. I think deep down they expected her to be short, and someone on this board who I know and trust and who knows the family and their training methods very well told me 4 months ago that she would get beaten first time out in 2010.

I think it's a little premature to throw her over the side. And I'd wait for CJ to weigh in because I think her race today is going to come up faster than some think.

A wise observation, Ian.;)

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 10:04 PM
Yes, pressing some of the fastest fractions of the meet at 1 1/16 miles is a perfect trip. The winner sat behind the pacesetters, setting the fast fractions. That's not ideal. You're right.

And you DID knock her Woodward win. That was also a perfect trip, I guess. You win this one. But do me a favor:

Don't ever stop betting. :lol:

You are correct. Going 24-48 the opening half mile in a 8.5 furlong race are insane fractions and would spend any horse especially an all time great like rachel. Please buy a clue and stop looking for excuses

Charlie D
03-13-2010, 10:06 PM
If you weren't trying to make a point, I doubt you would have bolded anything. Come on Charlie.

I've already stated why i bolded the words, now if you or anyone else want to interpret it otherwise be my guest.


And FWIW, on my figs Rachel has run a very similar to what she did in FG Oaks in 09, but unlike then, she may have needed this one. ;)

Dahoss9698
03-13-2010, 10:06 PM
You are correct. Going 24-48 the opening half mile in a 8.5 furlong race are insane fractions and would spend any horse especially an all time great like rachel. Please buy a clue and stop looking for excuses

How come you're never around before races? After the race you're here, but never a peep before. Weird...

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 10:07 PM
I didn't want to go this route, but for starters, watch how freakin' WIDE Borel takes her around that first turn...

Hey, you asked WHY it wasn't a perfect trip...I'm not making that as an excuse, but you did ask WHY. That is part 1 of WHY.

You're right. You definitely shouldn't have went that route. You poopoed MTB going 7 wide around the final turn but now are citing rachel going 3-4 wide around the first turn as a bad trip?

The Hawk
03-13-2010, 10:07 PM
You are correct. Going 24-48 the opening half mile in a 8.5 furlong race are insane fractions and would spend any horse especially an all time great like rachel. Please buy a clue and stop looking for excuses

You clearly don't know much about betting Fair Grounds. Among other things...

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 10:09 PM
How come you're never around before races? After the race you're here, but never a peep before. Weird...

FAIL. I've been calling rachel overrated since last year both before and after races. Try again

bisket
03-13-2010, 10:12 PM
Didn't I say that a while back, da-bisket?
:faint: :)
yes!!! i didn't want to cause you any headaches ;) the subject of these two mares makes me feel as if i'm in a bar and on one side is red sox fans and on the other side is yankee fans. :D i didn't want to put you in the middle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB-mVF-4FY8

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 10:16 PM
That is why I put "based on today's results" before saying I was wrong....if I just said "I was wrong" it may have been drivel and would have been jumping to the kind of conclusions you thought I was......my overall point was that RA losing was a huge deal and it would have been nice to see all of the RA people acknowledge that and admit that today was a defeat of sorts.....Here's what I consider the drivel part:it is amazing how people dont view today as a big deal.....isnt the point of racing to WIN THE RACE.....that field was pathetic and the final time wasnt even better than allowance horses earlier in the dayWhy would losing your first race off a SIX MONTH layoff by a mere .75 lenghts constitute a big deal?

No, the point of racing isn't necessarily to WIN THE RACE, especially if you are coming off a long layoff. How can you say this after knowing what you know about the game of racing? Horses are brought back all the time from long layoffs with no intention of winning. I'm not saying that was the case here, but no, in some situations, the point is to gain needed fitness, not necessarily to WIN.

And as for the field being pathetic, obviously, Zardana is not pathetic...they cleared the rest of that field by over 12 lengths, and Zardana has never been beaten over the dirt.

As for the final time being comparable to an earlier allowance race, I'll let those more versed in these things make the final judgement...but I will say that the winner of that earlier race won by almost 6 lengths, so that tells you something about the performance...just citing the class of the race itself doesn't do much to prove or disprove how fast it actually went...

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 10:17 PM
You're right. You definitely shouldn't have went that route. You poopoed MTB going 7 wide around the final turn but now are citing rachel going 3-4 wide around the first turn as a bad trip?She went more than 4 wide around that first turn...and don't be a total dick...you asked for reasons why, and when I give it to you, you start citing last year's Derby?

WTF?

Dahoss9698
03-13-2010, 10:17 PM
FAIL. I've been calling rachel overrated since last year both before and after races. Try again

Nah, I think I nailed it. I'm sure you're busy and all, but surely you could have found the time to say something, anything before the race.

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 10:20 PM
She went more than 4 wide around that first turn...and don't be a total dick...you asked for reasons why, and when I give it to you, you start citing last year's Derby?

WTF?

Actually it was the preakness I was citing. I guess calling out your hypocrisy is being a "dick".

She was 4 wide and was not even forced. To say she didn't have a good trip because of that is lame.

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 10:20 PM
Here's what I consider the drivel part:Why would losing your first race off a SIX MONTH layoff by a mere .75 lenghts constitute a big deal?
No, the point of racing isn't necessarily to WIN THE RACE, especially if you are coming off a long layoff. How can you say this after knowing what you know about the game of racing? Horses are brought back all the time from long layoffs with no intention of winning. I'm not saying that was the case here, but no, in some situations, the point is to gain needed fitness, not necessarily to WIN.

And as for the field being pathetic, obviously, Zardana is not pathetic...they cleared the rest of that field by over 12 lengths, and Zardana has never been beaten over the dirt.

As for the final time being comparable to an earlier allowance race, I'll let those more versed in these things make the final judgement...but I will say that the winner of that earlier race won by almost 6 lengths, so that tells you something about the performance...just citing the class of the race itself doesn't do much to prove or disprove how fast it actually went...

Pace,

She went off at 1 to 20. So if you thought before the race, "geeh if she loses that isn't a big deal...she's missed a lot of time...could lose...could win," you should have bet your brains out AGAINST her b/c the betting pool clearly disagreed with you.

InsideThePylons-MW
03-13-2010, 10:22 PM
Wow.....This seems to be the RA/Z thread so I'll post this here.....

1. Rachel was short........If Rachel was short enough to lose, per Steve A, they never would have run her.

2. There is not a chance in hell that Jackson thought there was any chance she could possibly lose to that field. Win by 10 instead of 20...Yes....But lose, no chance.

3. There is not a chance in hell that Jackson will race in Apple Blossom against Zenyatta if he thinks he is taking the worst of it or has a small chance to lose.....After today, he can't possibly think his horse is as fit or sharp as Z and I'm sure he went from thinking RA is invincible to she can definitely lose.

So here is Jackson's equation......A unimaginable loss + A lost air of invincibilty + A decent chance she might lose to Zenyatta in Apple Blossom = A mating to Curlin which will still produce a late Feb or early March foal

The only other option.....since Jackson is stubborn as a mule and a sore loser.....He takes her out of Apple Blossom.....says she needs a little time.....Re-Challenges Zenyatta to meet RA in BC Distaff at CD end of year.

These are just my UNBIASED UNCLOUDED thoughts about what might happen based on my knowledge of the people involved in this and after watching today's races.

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 10:23 PM
Nah, I think I nailed it. I'm sure you're busy and all, but surely you could have found the time to say something, anything before the race.

What I'm discussing here is the result and meaning of the race. You're making it seem like I'm posting that I thought she would lose the race and bet against her.

I thought she would dominate this race, even off the layoff.

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 10:23 PM
Wow.....This seems to be the RA/Z thread so I'll post this here.....

1. Rachel was short........If Rachel was short enough to lose, per Steve A, they never would have run her.

2. There is not a chance in hell that Jackson thought there was any chance she could possibly lose to that field. Win by 10 instead of 20...Yes....But lose, no chance.

3. There is not a chance in hell that Jackson will race in Apple Blossom against Zenyatta if he thinks he is taking the worst of it or has a small chance to lose.....After today, he can't possibly think his horse is as fit or sharp as Z and I'm sure he went from thinking RA is invincible to she can definitely lose.

So here is Jackson's equation......A unimaginable loss + A lost air of invincibilty + A decent chance she might lose to Zenyatta in Apple Blossom = A mating to Curlin which will still produce a late Feb or early March foal

The only other option.....since Jackson is stubborn as a mule and a sore loser.....He takes her out of Apple Blossom.....says she needs a little time.....Re-Challenges Zenyatta to meet RA in BC Distaff at CD end of year.

These are just my UNBIASED UNCLOUDED thoughts about what might happen based on my knowledge of the people involved in this and after watching today's races.

When has he been a sore loser?

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 10:24 PM
Pace,

She went off at 1 to 20. So if you thought before the race, "geeh if she loses that isn't a big deal...she's missed a lot of time...could lose...could win," you should have bet your brains out AGAINST her b/c the betting pool clearly disagreed with you.

Well he puts more stock in a headline from the drf rather than the betting pools so go figure :confused:

tzipi
03-13-2010, 10:28 PM
Well he puts more stock in a headline from the drf rather than the betting pools so go figure :confused:

Are you serious. It's a given what the odds are going to be. Every all time great went off at short odds in their comeback races whether they won or lost. Stock in those betting pools? The public just hammers the champion.

Name a great horse who didn't go off the favorite in a small prep race in which they won or lost?

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 10:28 PM
Pace,

She went off at 1 to 20. So if you thought before the race, "geeh if she loses that isn't a big deal...she's missed a lot of time...could lose...could win," you should have bet your brains out AGAINST her b/c the betting pool clearly disagreed with you.Why the hell would I "BET MY BRAINS OUT" against a horse who, on paper, is clearly superior?

The best time to beat a superior horse is coming off a layoff...anyone who has been in this game for any length of time knows this and has experienced it time and again.

I didn't think today would be one of those times, but the fact that it turned out that way isn't surprising or a big deal...to me anyway...have you been in the game long?

Saratoga_Mike
03-13-2010, 10:30 PM
Why the hell would I "BET MY BRAINS OUT" against a horse who, on paper, is clearly superior?

The best time to beat a superior horse is coming off a layoff...anyone who has been in this game for any length of time knows this and has experienced it time and again.

I didn't think today would be one of those times, but the fact that it turned out that way isn't surprising or a big deal...to me anyway...have you been in the game long?

Okay, we agree.

My father trained horses. I grew up with horses. I now own race horses. I've been gambling since I was 14. And your background?

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 10:31 PM
Are you serious. It's a given what the odds are going to be. Every all time great went off at short odds in their comeback races whether they won or lost. Stock in those betting pools? The public just hammers the champion.

Name a great horse who didn't go off the favorite in a small prep race in which they won or lost?

That doesn't change the fact that this was a shocker. You bring up a few cases where champions lost off a layoff to try and prove this was "no big deal"

How bout all the times champions WON off a layoff? Which list do you think is longer?

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 10:31 PM
Well he puts more stock in a headline from the drf rather than the betting pools so go figure :confused:I use the headline as a thrust against those who are "so utterly shocked and dismayed" by today's result.

If the DRF could print a headline like that BEFORE the race, obviously, the result wasn't all that shocking...

You knew this before you posted the above, but your desire to get the dig in overwhelmed your common sense.

But, if you want to go your route...favorites lose all the time...even 1/9 favorites. So much for betting pools.

ghostyapper
03-13-2010, 10:33 PM
But, if you want to go your route...favorites lose all the time...even 1/9 favorites. So much for betting pools.

And I'll pose the same question to you. How often to 1/20 favorites win compared to they lose. Because some lose or have lost before does not make this a non story today.

Relwob Owner
03-13-2010, 10:34 PM
Here's what I consider the drivel part:Why would losing your first race off a SIX MONTH layoff by a mere .75 lenghts constitute a big deal?

No, the point of racing isn't necessarily to WIN THE RACE, especially if you are coming off a long layoff. How can you say this after knowing what you know about the game of racing? Horses are brought back all the time from long layoffs with no intention of winning. I'm not saying that was the case here, but no, in some situations, the point is to gain needed fitness, not necessarily to WIN.

And as for the field being pathetic, obviously, Zardana is not pathetic...they cleared the rest of that field by over 12 lengths, and Zardana has never been beaten over the dirt.

As for the final time being comparable to an earlier allowance race, I'll let those more versed in these things make the final judgement...but I will say that the winner of that earlier race won by almost 6 lengths, so that tells you something about the performance...just citing the class of the race itself doesn't do much to prove or disprove how fast it actually went...



You still have yet to address the hypocrisy of you saying you thought I was better than the drivel I posted and then saying "I guess not"....you are all over me and others for making judgements after one race and then you make a judgement and change your mind after my ONE post....you have dodged this many times but maybe the seventh or eighth time will be the charm???

I am pretty sure you just said that Zardana "has never been beaten over the dirt" as if that means anything or that she has beaten some good horses or something....isnt today her first dirt race????If so, her 93 Beyer didnt set her bar on the dirt very high.....that field was pathetic compared with the standards that Rachel set for herself-I still believe that. You say "horses are brought off layoffs all the time"....yes, horses are but Rachel, as you and I both think is no regular horse and has different standards-those standards make her losing at all today a big deal...

We can agree to disagree about it being a big deal...you seem to view it as more of a prep and workout, but Asmussen sure didnt saying he wouldnt have run her if he didnt think he would win.


Citing the class of the race I referred to says everything....an allowance winner went faster than Zardana-that says a ton....

GMB@BP
03-13-2010, 10:34 PM
Let me ask you a question. If Zenyatta was running in the early to mid 90's do you think she would be undefeated?

unlikely, Bayakoa was an f'ng machine, she could have beat her a time or two.

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 10:35 PM
Okay, we agree.

My father trained horses. I grew up with horses. I now own race horses. I've been gambling since I was 14. And your background?I know all about you...my question to you was rhetorical...I can't believe someone with your experience would be questioning why I wouldn't be betting my brains out in a race like this...you know exactly why...

tzipi
03-13-2010, 10:35 PM
That doesn't change the fact that this was a shocker. You bring up a few cases where champions lost off a layoff to try and prove this was "no big deal"

How bout all the times champions WON off a layoff? Which list do you think is longer?

Of course but there is many who lost. To many to list. So are you saying Kelso was bad and overrated because he lost many comeback races, one in a allowance race! Would love to see that reaction today ha. How about Affirmed losing?

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2010, 10:38 PM
I am pretty sure you just said that Zardana "has never been beaten over the dirt" as if that means anything or that she has beaten some good horses or something....isnt today her first dirt race????No.If so, her 93 Beyer didnt set her bar on the dirt very high.....They released the figure already? Where did that show up?We can agree to disagree about it being a big deal...you seem to view it as more of a prep and workout, but Asmussen sure didnt saying he wouldnt have run her if he didnt think he would win.If this is true, how did DRF get the idea for that headline? They just made it up out of thin air?

Hanover1
03-13-2010, 10:39 PM
I waited and waited, and read the thread...Time to serve up my 2 cents for what its worth. (2 cents)Those that know me, know I am a fair horseman (never was great-missing the superstar I guess, but had 1 800k winner as a 2 yr old, and several minor stars...) and now its time to weigh in with the punters.....
As some AND DRF mentioned, she was short. PERIOD. no excuses, no pace crap, no bad ride, ect.....just not tight. A deep closer is much easier to bring around than a horse with tactical speed, after a layoff. Much easier to keep fit also. The running styles and mental preps call for a different work approach with each style. If, and it is a BIG if, given her tough campaign thus far, Rachel returns to form, it may be another start or so before it happens. Given her lack of fluid motion during works, ect... and todays performance, the AB may be a rush job imo. I did suggest last week on this forum that it would be a good idea to shop around for a price in that race today for RA, and there you have it. No magic, just horsesense given her attributes.
I am/was a huge RA fan, and am not a poly fan either. I will dodge the poly issue alltogether, yet say this....Zen is an incredible closer regardless of fractions, and its gonna take a perfectly cut race, every fraction upfront, at quick splits, to even consider beating her. Im talkin 1:10, mile in 34 OR LESS, to beat her, and assuming a horse on the engine can finish up well, I still see Zen winning if moved at the proper time during those fractions. Not sure Smith could get it done with those type fractions, but Zen could imo. RA may not be at peak for that type of race, as i stated above. Take it for what its worth (2 cents).
I am concerned about her penchants of late gait wise, very concerned, and Im sure its a well discussed issue in the camp-just not something that needs to be public knowledge at this time.
Th AB should go off as planned, barring an injury, however. To much at stake for all concerned. If RA loses, it comes as no surpriose to me, but if she is sound, 3rd off layoff is usually where my money is at.

tzipi
03-13-2010, 10:39 PM
Let me ask you a question. If Zenyatta was running in the early to mid 90's do you think she would be undefeated?

Not sure. She wouldn't be able to run on synthetic tracks back then race after race and she would have to probably travel much more. So who knows what she would've done on all dirt races and traveling. So it can't be answered I think. JMO

Dahoss9698
03-13-2010, 10:42 PM
unlikely, Bayakoa was an f'ng machine, she could have beat her a time or two.

I agree. there are a few others that could have given her fits as well. On her best day, no way she was running down Inside Information.

I appreciate your honesty.