The Marketing Dept at the Race Tracks Are So Stupid It Makes Me Sick,

[Igeteven]

The Marketing Dept at the Race Tracks Are So Stupid It Makes Me Sick, so are the commercials on TVG and HRTV.

If one watches the commercials on TV, they are going after the people in the late 20's, 30's and early 40's, the rest of us, they totally ignore.


What I mean more then 70 percent of this age group, don't have a pot to piss in, or they prefer basketball, baseball or football to racing. They are not getting these bettors to the track.

If marketing was smart. They would go after the baby boomers, because there is a UN Tap market out there.

The tracks should be kissing the ass of any player over the age of 55 years of age. As of now, they don't... except on Fridays, Santa Anita does give some pass to the track of some kind. They should be giving 10 or 20 dollars vouchers to them and getting them started.

These people are the prime rib of bettors, and they think they have a endless supply of them. However they don't

Welcome to marketing.

[boomman]

The Marketing Dept at the Race Tracks Are So Stupid It Makes Me Sick, so are the commercials on TVG and HRTV.

If one watches the commercials on TV, they are going after the people in the late 20's, 30's and early 40's, the rest of us, they totally ignore.


What I mean more then 70 percent of this age group, don't have a pot to piss in, or they prefer basketball, baseball or football to racing. They are not getting these bettors to the track.

If marketing was smart. They would go after the baby boomers, because there is a UN Tap market out there.

The tracks should be kissing the ass of any player over the age of 55 years of age. As of now, they don't... except on Fridays, Santa Anita does give some pass to the track of some kind. They should be giving 10 or 20 dollars vouchers to them and getting them started.

These people are the prime rib of bettors, and they think they have a endless supply of them. However they don't

Welcome to marketing.

Try telling that to the poker industry which has made millions off that age group. I can see you really did your homework before making these idiotic comments:ThmbDown:

Boomer

[Igeteven]

Try telling that to the poker industry which has made millions off that age group. I can see you really did your homework before making these idiotic comments:ThmbDown:

Boomer

that's poker, not horse racing my man, I did do my home work. Look at the age of the poker players.

[boomman]

that's poker, not horse racing my man, I did do my home work. Look at the age of the poker players.

The average age of an online poker player is what then? (I'll give you a hint): 80% of 'em are barely old enough to gamble! And if you wonder why I used that example, its because there is a HUGE crossover between poker and horse players (I happen to be one of 'em);) Marketing to a younger demographic is EXACTLY what horse racing needs to do, as long as we also make sure that the younger crowd is able to wager ON EVERY TRACK via what they grew up on:

THE INTERNET!!!

Boomer

[letswastemoney]

I must say I disagree with you.

By focusing on younger people, they are getting gamblers who will stick with them for a long, long time, assuming they find a way to reel them in.

As for the older 60, 70 year old crowd....they don't have many years of gambling left....

[ManeMediaMogul]

If you had a pair of geese that laid golden eggs and you were told that you could only keep one, would you pick the four-year-old goose or the fifty-year-old goose?

Racing needs life-long fans.

It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks, that's why the saying has lasted for centuries. Most people 50 and up are already entrenched in their hobbies and pursuits. Not too many altercockers are going to embrace horse racing if they haven't already.

[Tom]

If you are advertising on HRTV or TVG, you are hitting people people already interested in racing. Maybe they would pick up more people is they used NBC, or CNN or whatever.

[Stillriledup]

They don't kiss those asses because those players will keep coming back no matter what. The 'regulars' are there every day no matter what. Why kiss their backside when you don't have to?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

They may be targeting the younger crowd, but they will only fail unless they address the high takeout and because of that there are no visible winners who make a living betting.

Why would a young person be enticed to "gamble" on horses when the chances they win long term are slim to none?, and lets not forget, the learning curve is very high as well.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

They don't kiss those asses because those players will keep coming back no matter what. The 'regulars' are there every day no matter what. Why kiss their backside when you don't have to?
Actually, the racetracks only growth component is the existing player. They need to last longer so that friends and family may take notice and tag along with them or at least get intrigued as to what they are doing if they are betting from home.

[Stillriledup]

Actually, the racetracks only growth component is the existing player. They need to last longer so that friends and family may take notice and tag along with them or at least get intrigued as to what they are doing if they are betting from home.

Most current players are very cynical of the game and won't introduce people they care about into this sport as a serious player. They might take them for a day out for dollar dogs or dollar cokes, but thats about it i'm afraid.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Most current players are very cynical of the game and won't introduce people they care about into this sport as a serious player. They might take them for a day out for dollar dogs or dollar cokes, but thats about it i'm afraid.
That is very true. Players just don't last anymore...not like the 60's,70's, and 80's when many came home a winner for the day or at least with enough to battle the very next day thanks to

Dummy money in the pools
Limited wagering opportunities (only 9 races a day (no simulcast wagering), and in the 60's and early 70's very few exotics).
A lower blended takeout (because there were less exotics).

[Leonard]

These people are the prime rib of bettors, and they think they have a endless supply of them. However they don't

Welcome to marketing.

There is a reason the key demographic of marketing agencies is the 25-35 year old group.

[andymays]

Poker is a game of skill and every time you watch someone is winning a chunk of money.

Horse racing is a game of skill and everytime you watch someone is ................................ Oh wait, how many losing pick 4 tickets from so called experts at TVG do we have to see going down the drain. Too many. :rolleyes:

When does racing ever talk about the people who make scores on any given day or any given week?

It's not come to the track because you have a shot to win. It's come to the track because we are giving away a voucher that could be worth 10k but is usually worth $2. Or come to the track for a dollar beer and a dollar hot dog.

[sandpit]

If you go to a casino, you have a variety of opportunities (slots, roulette, blackjack, etc.) to choose from to lose your money. So there is something there almost everybody can find they like to gamble on. At the track, sure they come up with different types of bets, but it's all basically the same thing. I'm not proclaiming to have all the answers, but it would seem that opening new avenues for wagering, like Betfair's betting exchange, would be a step in the right direction, i.e., multiple opportunities to be a winner. Lower takeouts would certainly help foster long-term players.

I'm on the fence about young/old players...it's always good to get young fans to the track, but the local bingo halls and casino around here actually send buses out to homes for the elderly and bring them to their establishments. They may not bet a ton, but it beats a blank. I know Ellis Park used to recruit the old folks groups pretty heavily, and they always had a great time there.

[jballscalls]

Poker is a game of skill and every time you watch someone is winning a chunk of money.

Horse racing is a game of skill and everytime you watch someone is ................................ Oh wait, how many losing pick 4 tickets from so called experts at TVG do we have to see going down the drain. Too many. :rolleyes:

When does racing ever talk about the people who make scores on any given day or any given week?

It's not come to the track because you have a shot to win. It's come to the track because we are giving away a voucher that could be worth 10k but is usually worth $2. Or come to the track for a dollar beer and a dollar hot dog.

Poker is better at disguising those things too, because most of the poker pro's you see on TV are busted and are put into those tourney's by syndicates etc.

It's also funny you mentioned the above part that is highlighted, cause that is exactly what all of our billboards and newspaper adds featured before this season started (531,000) was paid out each day at PM last season, get your part of it, something like that.

If your talking about marketing in terms of creating new racing fans, let me ask you all a question............at what age did you become a fan of horse racing and horse betting?? i'd wager that over 90% of us became hooked before we were old enough to bet, or sometime in our late teens early 20's. I'd also wager that a huge majority of us were taken to the track by our dads, moms, grandpa's etc.

That is when new fans and bettors are made, when they are young. before they are already into poker, before they are old and crotchety, before takeout complaining becomes the centerpiece of their life and existence.

Sincerely,

Racetrack Marketing guy that has increased handle and business at his track

[andymays]

Poker is better at disguising those things too, because most of the poker pro's you see on TV are busted and are put into those tourney's by syndicates etc.

It's also funny you mentioned the above part that is highlighted, cause that is exactly what all of our billboards and newspaper adds featured before this season started (531,000) was paid out each day at PM last season, get your part of it, something like that.

If your talking about marketing in terms of creating new racing fans, let me ask you all a question............at what age did you become a fan of horse racing and horse betting?? i'd wager that over 90% of us became hooked before we were old enough to bet, or sometime in our late teens early 20's. I'd also wager that a huge majority of us were taken to the track by our dads, moms, grandpa's etc.

That is when new fans and bettors are made, when they are young. before they are already into poker, before they are old and crotchety, before takeout complaining becomes the centerpiece of their life and existence.

Sincerely,

Racetrack Marketing guy that has increased handle and business at his track


If people are winning and other people know about it then they will come.

Who's gonna make the effort to learn the game and develop the skill necessary to make a decent hit when you're not sure that anyone ever wins?

Take the casino's. You see a commercial and everyone is winning (what a joke), dancing and smiling. Every commercial involves someone making a score.

Then you have Del Mar. This is what the North Country Times says about their marketing stuff and the side effects:


http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_387fafd8-df42-5bf8-910c-23c2ec6fab18.html

Excerpt:

Thumbs down to the Del Mar marketing department for coming up with the "Miss Cougar" contest last Wednesday on the day of the Cougar II Handicap. That was a classless and tasteless act.


Excerpt:

Thumbs down to Del Mar's security in the parking lot on Friday nights after its concert series. Having drunks try to race your car on foot isn't fun.


Then we have more good news if you're going to the track on Saturday at Del Mar:

DEL MAR: DUI checkpoint set for Saturday
http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/del-mar/article_18b8f873-ded9-5fcf-9397-b30cb1d1a7ba.html

Excerpt:

DEL MAR ---- A DUI and traffic safety checkpoint is planned for Saturday night in Del Mar.

At the same time, extra deputies be patrolling for drunken drivers, a sheriff's sergeant said.

The driver's licence and sobriety checkpoint is scheduled for 6 p.m. to midnight in the 1100 block of Camino Del Mar, Sgt. Randy Webb said.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does this stuff make you want to go to the track and have fun on a summer weekend. Granted the marketing department didn't put this out but it's reality for people going to the track.

[johnhannibalsmith]

With all of the flaws in racing, there isn't one that is more apparently and blatantly pathetic than the way it markets and promotes.

As Andy stated - the casinos run an ad nearly every break on major networks with catchy jingles "Two casinos, twice the fun, see how the west was won... la la la la..." That spot hasn't run in years and I still remember it. The people are doing the "I just hit 498,000 miles in my '77 Celica Liftback skyleap for joy" (oh oh oh what a feeling) with dollar bills and shamrocks flying all around them and tempting bits that you too can join the "Millionaire's Club" by registering for Sunday's Double Whammy challenge, etc., etc.,

Then once a month, the track dusts off some old footage of a race with jocks that retired a decade ago in the background of an overlaid 2010 Calendar and an exuberant track announcer voicing over the good news that first 10,000 fans wil get a calendar! Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A calendar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What do we get next week for our $4.00 parking, $5.00 admission, $3.00 program, $5.00 racing form, $12.00 burger, $6.00 soda, and horrendous customer, I mean participant, service - A frigging jar of vaseline?

[Leonard]

With all of the flaws in racing, there isn't one that is more apparently and blatantly pathetic than the way it markets and promotes.

As Andy stated - the casinos run an ad nearly every break on major networks with catchy jingles "Two casinos, twice the fun, see how the west was won... la la la la..." That spot hasn't run in years and I still remember it. The people are doing the "I just hit 498,000 miles in my '77 Celica Liftback skyleap for joy" (oh oh oh what a feeling) with dollar bills and shamrocks flying all around them and tempting bits that you too can join the "Millionaire's Club" by registering for Sunday's Double Whammy challenge, etc., etc.,

Then once a month, the track dusts off some old footage of a race with jocks that retired a decade ago in the background of an overlaid 2010 Calendar and an exuberant track announcer voicing over the good news that first 10,000 fans wil get a calendar! Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A calendar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What do we get next week for our $4.00 parking, $5.00 admission, $3.00 program, $5.00 racing form, $12.00 burger, $6.00 soda, and horrendous customer, I mean participant, service - A frigging jar of vaseline?

This post should be sent to the marketing department of every track in the country. :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

With all of the flaws in racing, there isn't one that is more apparently and blatantly pathetic than the way it markets and promotes.

As Andy stated - the casinos run an ad nearly every break on major networks with catchy jingles "Two casinos, twice the fun, see how the west was won... la la la la..." That spot hasn't run in years and I still remember it. The people are doing the "I just hit 498,000 miles in my '77 Celica Liftback skyleap for joy" (oh oh oh what a feeling) with dollar bills and shamrocks flying all around them and tempting bits that you too can join the "Millionaire's Club" by registering for Sunday's Double Whammy challenge, etc., etc.,

Then once a month, the track dusts off some old footage of a race with jocks that retired a decade ago in the background of an overlaid 2010 Calendar and an exuberant track announcer voicing over the good news that first 10,000 fans wil get a calendar! Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A calendar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What do we get next week for our $4.00 parking, $5.00 admission, $3.00 program, $5.00 racing form, $12.00 burger, $6.00 soda, and horrendous customer, I mean participant, service - A frigging jar of vaseline?


That's what I'm talkin about! :ThmbUp:

Stop taking it and make some noise! ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VbR1pocrK4

[46zilzal]

Line overheard coming from our U. of Arizona race track management graduate: "we need to get rid of all of these old people!"

Question posed to our marketing director on her Friday night gimmicks to get people INTO the track.

ME: "Now that you have them here, what plans to you have to make them interested enough in the product (racing and wagering) to come back again on their own?"
Marketing director:"That's not my problem! emphatically stated.

both clueless


Admission is free but parking? $7.00

[Horseplayersbet.com]

About free admissions and parking. At Ontario tracks/racinos, with the exception of valet parking, they have been free for years.

But does it really help handle or even attendance? Nope.

Horse racing is about gambling. And until the horse racing execs understand this, and more importantly deal with it, even the best marketing ideas will at best provide tiny growth, but most likely will produce nothing as racing continues to spiral downwards.

[rwwupl]

Try telling that to the poker industry which has made millions off that age group. I can see you really did your homework before making these idiotic comments:ThmbDown:

Boomer


Boomer,


I have a lot of respect for you, but your comment on what others think (idiotic) is out of line and does not serve you well.

Before you dismiss others with demeaning comments I think you should reflect on the facts of recent history... Horse racing has spent millions on "Go BABY GO" and "Friday Night Racing" ,"Concerts" and the like directed mainly at the target group of young fans.

All figures from friday night racing shows the per capita wagering numbers are dismal,and the reason young people go is for "Entertainment".. a date, dollar beer..and so forth,they do not BET

This strategy has been going on for YEARS... and where can you identify the success of the marketing stategy?

The main income for racing is the pari-mutuel handle and the natural fan base of racing(55 to 60 yrs?) bets a great deal more per capita than any group of young people on a date, out for a night of entertainment.

Contrary to racetrack dogma, the natural fan base is not disappearing, the group is larger than ever in our history... they are being ignored.

How long does it take for marketing to understand that when the young folks grow up their activities change... and yes.. their interests may turn to horse racing when the more important things are resolved as young people. When they have the money ,and time and experience to visit the toy department of life and appreciate our wonderful sport.

All the stats say marketing has failed in the larger sense of this dubious goal. What is the problem? Tell us about the huge success of this program.

How many millions more would you think we should spend and on what to attract the failed effort of building the non-existant young fan base?

How come you can not compete with Poker... could there be another reason , like they offer a better deal?...the take is a lot less,so your chance of winning is better...

How about rethinking... and consider another approach.

[andymays]

Damn you're smart rwwupl! :ThmbUp:

Keep up the good work! :ThmbUp:

You ought to think about officially representing Horseplayers in Californa. :ThmbUp:

[boomman]

With all of the flaws in racing, there isn't one that is more apparently and blatantly pathetic than the way it markets and promotes.

As Andy stated - the casinos run an ad nearly every break on major networks with catchy jingles "Two casinos, twice the fun, see how the west was won... la la la la..." That spot hasn't run in years and I still remember it. The people are doing the "I just hit 498,000 miles in my '77 Celica Liftback skyleap for joy" (oh oh oh what a feeling) with dollar bills and shamrocks flying all around them and tempting bits that you too can join the "Millionaire's Club" by registering for Sunday's Double Whammy challenge, etc., etc.,

Then once a month, the track dusts off some old footage of a race with jocks that retired a decade ago in the background of an overlaid 2010 Calendar and an exuberant track announcer voicing over the good news that first 10,000 fans wil get a calendar! Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A calendar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What do we get next week for our $4.00 parking, $5.00 admission, $3.00 program, $5.00 racing form, $12.00 burger, $6.00 soda, and horrendous customer, I mean participant, service - A frigging jar of vaseline?

Good points (from the past as far as your own track is concerned) as EVERYONE of these items mentioned has been looked at:I discuss each one below:

Then once a month, the track dusts off some old footage of a race with jocks that retired a decade ago in the background of an overlaid 2010 Calendar and an exuberant track announcer voicing over the good news that first 10,000 fans wil get a calendar! Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our ads are kept fresh, I assist in cutting new ads every 2 weeks during the summer, appear LIVE on radio every Friday, and write a column on "whats up at the downs" that appears on the front page of our local sports page and is distributed throughout the state of what's "on tap" for live racing that weekend. Even on a very limited budget, our distribution is throught the state, we do have promotions, but we keep 'em fresh and try to appeal to as many demographics as possible What do we get next week for our $4.00 parking,FREE $5.00 admission, 2.00 2 days a week and FREE the other 2, $3.00 program, 1.50 $5.00 racing form (DRF has announced they will put more tracks in EACH form and remember customers can buy online at a discount, which is what I do) $12.00 burger, 5.00 $6.00 soda, 1.50 and horrendous customer, I mean participant, service we are committed to improving customer service on EVERY level, with special group functions, a cool banquet room in the press box that gives the customer the feeling they're part of the action, and of course are working diligently on expanding the availability of our races via online and the addition of 12 OTB's in the State, as well as expanded full card simulcasting on the horizon. We first met with H.A.N.A. last August and speaking for our track, WE HEAR YOU!

Boomer

[jballscalls]

Good points (from the past as far as your own track is concerned) as EVERYONE of these items mentioned has been looked at:I discuss each one below:

Then once a month, the track dusts off some old footage of a race with jocks that retired a decade ago in the background of an overlaid 2010 Calendar and an exuberant track announcer voicing over the good news that first 10,000 fans wil get a calendar! Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our ads are kept fresh, I assist in cutting new ads every 2 weeks during the summer, appear LIVE on radio every Friday, and write a column on "whats up at the downs" that appears on the front page of our local sports page and is distributed throughout the state of what's "on tap" for live racing that weekend. Even on a very limited budget, our distribution is throught the state, we do have promotions, but we keep 'em fresh and try to appeal to as many demographics as possible What do we get next week for our $4.00 parking,FREE $5.00 admission, 2.00 2 days a week and FREE the other 2, $3.00 program, 1.50 $5.00 racing form (DRF has announced they will put more tracks in EACH form and remember customers can buy online at a discount, which is what I do) $12.00 burger, 5.00 $6.00 soda, 1.50 and horrendous customer, I mean participant, service we are committed to improving customer service on EVERY level, with special group functions, a cool banquet room in the press box that gives the customer the feeling they're part of the action, and of course are working diligently on expanding the availability of our races via online and the addition of 12 OTB's in the State, as well as expanded full card simulcasting on the horizon. We first met with H.A.N.A. last August and speaking for our track, WE HEAR YOU!

Boomer

This is the problem Boomer, we're being pigeon holed as idiots because of their dissatisfaction with whats gone on at other tracks, even though we're doing exactly what our players have asked for. (free parking, free admission, rebates, voucher giveaways instead of corny prizes, better food, better tv's, atmosphere, the list goes on)

My boss always says, we are having to make up for 30 years of racing not doing the right stuff to market it's product and treat it's customer well.

As far as takeout, that is something the marketing departments have nothing to do with, that is the state, horseman, management and all of their simulcast partners.

For takeout to be lowered it is going to take more than a rogue track or two, because other places wont take their signal if they are going to make less money. It will take a grass roots organization to get that done, hopefully it can get done before it's too late.

[joanied]

If you are advertising on HRTV or TVG, you are hitting people people already interested in racing. Maybe they would pick up more people is they used NBC, or CNN or whatever.

:ThmbUp: Exactly. They run some really super ads on HRTV/TVG...but they are preaching to the chior...IMO, it's waste of good advertising money to run ads like they do on the racing channels...we should see ads on all the networks, including FOX....in primetime.

They have one ad about the buzzer shot in basketball, the hail mary pass in football...
and the photo finish in racing...it's a great advertisment, but no one sees it unless you are watching HRTV/TVG...:bang:

[twindouble]

I've been around gamblers sense I was a teenager being brought up in an Italian neighborhood. Not all were gamblers, no different that any other ethic group. Taking risk is human nature and there was plenty of bookies around to capitalize on that very fact. Yes there's a huge gambling market out there, always has been. Their isn't just one kind of gambler to go after, they come in many different shades, the hard core gamblers are of a special culture that evolves out of every community. I have yet to come across any community that didn't have them. They have always been the catalyst of expansion of gambling in any environment so they are not to be discounted or taken for granted. For example, I've seen them at the track, at OTB, the clubs playing poker, black jack, craps and also betting sports. I've encountered many heavy hitters that came from all walks of life, businessmen, people in prominent positions on down to brick layers, city worker, well whatever you can come up with. The majority were and are good hard working people but there's always a small percentage you shouldn't get involved with. Anyone who thinks they only play the horses just because they are at the track should think twice about that. They have many choices and there's good lessons to be learned from hard core gamblers.

Just a foot note; I know one very well that hit fifty eight grand at OTB, went to Vegas the next day to play poker, he lasted five days and came home with just a small bankroll to play the horses again.

I'll have more to say latter.

[boomman]

Boomer,


I have a lot of respect for you, but your comment on what others think (idiotic) is out of line and does not serve you well. When we have worked as hard as we have to try and improve things over the last year and get lumped into a "so stupid" thread is it "idiotic" (to say the least) that we wouldn't try in some way (which we are) to create NEW racing fans from among EVERY demographic? You heard from Jason on this thread (jballscalls) about how we all fell in love with this game at a very young age (I was 16) and I'll bet we all have similar stories.

Before you dismiss others with demeaning comments I think you should reflect on the facts of recent history... Horse racing has spent millions on "Go BABY GO" and "Friday Night Racing" ,"Concerts" and the like directed mainly at the target group of young fans.

All figures from friday night racing shows the per capita wagering numbers are dismal,and the reason young people go is for "Entertainment".. a date, dollar beer..and so forth,they do not BET. Actually (although I'm certainly not a fan of the drunken concert crowds at Del Mar on Friday evenings and have said so on this forum) bringing people to the track as an entertainment venue has not been the failure you suggest. Canterbury Park's numbers have gone up each and every year per discounted concessions, live music and handicapping seminars aimed at new guests, and Churchill drew some nice crowds for their night racing experiment. Yes, the per capita is down ANYTIME you bring new fans to the track that don't know how to wager as would be expected, but that is our shot to try and turn them into RACE FANS. That isn't going to happen if we don't ever INVITE them to the track for the experience.

This strategy has been going on for YEARS... and where can you identify the success of the marketing stategy?I'm not saying it has been 100% successful, but we must work in EVERY way to bring new fans to horse racing and then make every attempt possible not to GOUGE them price wise, make the EVENT (which it has to be) enjoyable, and then try and educate them when they make the decision to come back.

The main income for racing is the pari-mutuel handle and the natural fan base of racing(55 to 60 yrs?) bets a great deal more per capita than any group of young people on a date, out for a night of entertainment.This is true and that isn't ignored as they are an important part of my customer base, but they didn't just one day wake up and fit that demographic, most of those players have been playing for 20+ even 30+ years.

Contrary to racetrack dogma, the natural fan base is not disappearing, the group is larger than ever in our history... they are being ignored. My customers in that age bracket would tell you differently: preferential parking and tables, and simulcast schedules posted well in advance just to name a few and a DIRECT email to me with their thoughts/questions/and concerns via our website.

How long does it take for marketing to understand that when the young folks grow up their activities change... and yes.. their interests may turn to horse racing when the more important things are resolved as young people. When they have the money ,and time and experience to visit the toy department of life and appreciate our wonderful sport. I TOTALLY understand that, but certainly want to take every opportunity to at least INTRODUCE it to them when they're willing to listen (which my experience is THEY ARE)

All the stats say marketing has failed in the larger sense of this dubious goal. What is the problem? Tell us about the huge success of this program.

How many millions more would you think we should spend and on what to attract the failed effort of building the non-existant young fan base? As Tom said on this thread, the money has to be spent in the right place, ther's no doubt that it hasn't been and that needs to be corrected, but I strongly feel that expanding our fan base (and properly caring for the ones we have) is on the mark. The NTRA just hired a new director for cultivating business, a dear friend of mine Barkley Porter a guy that his a history of getting things done & will be looking into this from every angle.........

How come you can not compete with Poker... could there be another reason , like they offer a better deal?...the take is a lot less,so your chance of winning is better...That's true on a takeout basis and that's why I'm pro rebates to lower takeout in any way possible, but notice their fanbase: If you make it fresh, exciting and inexpensive THEY WILL COME, and the proliferation of poker has come in 2 MAJOR veins that added all of these young people EXPANDED TELEVISION COVERAGE and THE INTERNET

How about rethinking... and consider another approach. NOW I've answered your questions, how about giving me your solutions to these problems, and be SPECIFIC. By the way, I respect everyone's opinion's on this board and that's why I participate in the 1st place!;)

Wow you guys are keeping me busy this morning, but that's ok, happy to have this discussion. See my answers above:

Boomer

[Robert Fischer]

Poker is a game of skill and every time you watch someone is winning a chunk of money.

Horse racing is a game of skill and everytime you watch someone is ................................ Oh wait, how many losing pick 4 tickets from so called experts at TVG do we have to see going down the drain. Too many. :rolleyes:

When does racing ever talk about the people who make scores on any given day or any given week?

It's not come to the track because you have a shot to win. It's come to the track because we are giving away a voucher that could be worth 10k but is usually worth $2. Or come to the track for a dollar beer and a dollar hot dog.

best andymays post ever

[Igeteven]

Damn you're smart rwwupl! :ThmbUp:

Keep up the good work! :ThmbUp:

You ought to think about officially representing Horseplayers in Californa. :ThmbUp:


Yes, Rwwup and you Andy are correct.

I would like a cash rebate on winning tickets back to the player, instead of a coffee cup that I can buy at the 99 cents store, at least 1 percent of the ticket or more.

[Show Me the Wire]

Poker is a game of skill and every time you watch someone is winning a chunk of money.

Horse racing is a game of skill and everytime you watch someone is ................................ Oh wait, how many losing pick 4 tickets from so called experts at TVG do we have to see going down the drain. Too many. :rolleyes:

When does racing ever talk about the people who make scores on any given day or any given week?

It's not come to the track because you have a shot to win. It's come to the track because we are giving away a voucher that could be worth 10k but is usually worth $2. Or come to the track for a dollar beer and a dollar hot dog.

Everytime you watch someone win a chunk of money, you see someone lose a chunk of money. Only poker disguises it well, because it is only a pile of chips until the prize is awarded.

Also, more importantly as jballscalls pointed out they are playing with other people's money.

[andymays]

best andymays post ever


I don't know if that's a compliment or an insult. :eek:

Just kidding, I'll take what I can get. ;)

[rwwupl]

EXcerpt:

All the stats say marketing has failed in the larger sense of this dubious goal. What is the problem? Tell us about the huge success of this program.

How many millions more would you think we should spend and on what to attract the failed effort of building the non-existant young fan base? As Tom said on this thread, the money has to be spent in the right place, ther's no doubt that it hasn't been and that needs to be corrected, but I strongly feel that expanding our fan base (and properly caring for the ones we have) is on the mark. The NTRA just hired a new director for cultivating business, a dear friend of mine Barkley Porter a guy that his a history of getting things done & will be looking into this from every angle.........
How come you can not compete with Poker... could there be another reason , like they offer a better deal?...the take is a lot less,so your chance of winning is better...That's true on a takeout basis and that's why I'm pro rebates to lower takeout in any way possible, but notice their fanbase: If you make it fresh, exciting and inexpensive THEY WILL COME, and the proliferation of poker has come in 2 MAJOR veins that added all of these young people EXPANDED TELEVISION COVERAGE and THE INTERNET

How about rethinking... and consider another approach.

NOW I've answered your questions, how about giving me your solutions to these problems, and be SPECIFIC. By the way, I respect everyone's opinion's on this board and that's why I participate in the 1st place!

Wow you guys are keeping me busy this morning, but that's ok, happy to have this discussion. See my answers above:

Boomer

You say you are all for rebates and lowering Take out... Tell us what you have done to accomplish this noble goal... When last did you go to the legislature and make the case for it?

Send home more winners by lowering the take and you will have more customers, and that will solve your marketing problem... and the problems of everyone concerned... does it really matter what the age of your customers are if they bet real U.S. dollars?

You have lost tremendous market share of your natural fan base to other venues...work on the real problem... rethink... that is your job.

[andymays]

The problem is that the tracks have painted themeselves into a corner and did not invest in the future when things were good. They did not plan on a totally forseable downturn in business. If you lower the take to where it should be it will take up to a year or so to start paying off. Most tracks can't survive that long.

It's the old "between a rock and a hard place" scenario.

To add insult to injury if one track tries to do it (drastically lower takeout) then the signal blocking bullshit starts and they freeze the track out that's trying to do the right thing for the Horseplayers.

[johnhannibalsmith]

The tracks/jurisdictions that have slot revenue or pending legislation could (have) certainly overcome that issue with gaming income... what is their excuse(s)?

[46zilzal]

EDUCATE don't inundate with marketing baloney, EDUCATE the fans to see how much parimutuel wagering has it all over casino types, but then that is too obvious and goes against THEIR profit margins.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

EDUCATE don't inundate with marketing baloney, EDUCATE the fans to see how much parimutuel wagering has it all over casino types, but then that is too obvious and goes against THEIR profit margins.
How so? In Ontario, if someone loses $200 at a casino (On average it takes over $2000 in bets to do so), the track gets 20 and the horsemen 20.
If someone loses $200 betting horses (it takes around $1000 in betting on average to do this), the track gets over 90 and the horsemen get over 90.

If you were the track, and the person walked in with a couple of hundred to gamble with, where would you rather they play?

[Igeteven]

Get a Bus, have the track go to the senor citizens center at city hall, pick up the seniors at a curtain time and give them free admission and a voucher for $10.00 in food.

They will bring money to play with.


Any other ideas, it's doesn't take an atomic scientist to get people to the track.

[twindouble]

That first post I just wanted clear up and dispel all the negative labels that many tend to lay on the "hard core" players and the assumption that they will show up no matter what. That's clearly wrong in my opinion and I would do all I could to keep them in the game. Anyone who thinks they don't influence people around them, young and old to play the horses is mistaken.

Think about this, here on PA there was thread that pointed out all the tracks that have closed over the years. I knew many closed but the number of them shocked me and there's more to come in the near future. What isn't understood, for every track that closes the cultural thread of racing is broken along with the historical positive effect the horse has had on that community and the country as a whole. Racing wasn't passed onto the new generations. That's history now for those communities and those young people are scattered all around the gambling world or the majority don't gamble at all. Lost opportunities for sure.

The gambling market of today isn't any longer centralize, the Internet (modern technology) can reach anywhere in the country and through out the world if so desired. The big question to me is, can that technology create another culture of horse players and bring the horse back to the forefront where they belong? Can new methods of promoting the sport bring in fans now and maintain them for future generations? That's going to be a tall order without turning racing into something it's not. I think it's important for any promotional program to expose people to racing's traditions, the horse, the track and the true essence of the sport on every level at all venues. To me capitalizing on what has been good for racing won't be a mistake or money wasted.

[boomman]

EXcerpt:



You say you are all for rebates and lowering Take out... Tell us what you have done to accomplish this noble goal... When last did you go to the legislature and make the case for it?

Send home more winners by lowering the take and you will have more customers, and that will solve your marketing problem... and the problems of everyone concerned... does it really matter what the age of your customers are if they bet real U.S. dollars?

You have lost tremendous market share of your natural fan base to other

venues...work on the real problem... rethink... that is your job.

rip: Thanks so much for telling me what my job is, you are SO smart!:D
For your info, one of the first things I did when I took over the Director of Racing job last July was to send a new pik 5 proposal to The State of Arizona at a lowered takeout which is now being discussed in detail with the Arizona HBPA, and HANA has a copy of...and as for getting rebates? How about Jan 25, 2010 with the new Director of The ADOR and Commission Chair? 2 members of H.A.N.A. were at the meeting!! You're right, as a 30 year horseplayer myself, I'm doing nothing! :D

Boomer

[johnhannibalsmith]

Get a Bus, have the track go to the senor citizens center at city hall, pick up the seniors at a curtain time and give them free admission and a voucher for $10.00 in food.

They will bring money to play with.


Any other ideas, it's doesn't take an atomic scientist to get people to the track.

Lester, you'll be happy to know that I have been pushing this (almost) exact idea for years.

I happen to think that this idea, more or less, is a no-brainer and I can't for the life of me understand why tracks don't take full advantage of those that are eager to get out but constrained by their situation and would LOVE the opportunity to come to the races if only they could get there and stay there.

[Igeteven]

Lester, you'll be happy to know that I have been pushing this (almost) exact idea for years.

I happen to think that this idea, more or less, is a no-brainer and I can't for the life of me understand why tracks don't take full advantage of those that are eager to get out but constrained by their situation and would LOVE the opportunity to come to the races if only they could get there and stay there.


Amen

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[twindouble]

Lester, you'll be happy to know that I have been pushing this (almost) exact idea for years.

I happen to think that this idea, more or less, is a no-brainer and I can't for the life of me understand why tracks don't take full advantage of those that are eager to get out but constrained by their situation and would LOVE the opportunity to come to the races if only they could get there and stay there.

Shuttling people to the tracks or any gambling venue is nothing new. Tell me what tracks are apposed to that idea? Unbelievable if they don't do it, they should be fired.

[tzipi]

YONKERS gets a ton of older people taking buses there. The casino clocks their money,not the racing.

[Igeteven]

Shuttling people to the tracks or any gambling venue is nothing new. Tell me what tracks are apposed to that idea? Unbelievable if they don't do it, they should be fired.

This is one of the reasons they are in a hell of a mess.

[rwwupl]

rip: Thanks so much for telling me what my job is, you are SO smart!:D
For your info, one of the first things I did when I took over the Director of Racing job last July was to send a new pik 5 proposal to The State of Arizona at a lowered takeout which is now being discussed in detail with the Arizona HBPA, and HANA has a copy of...and as for getting rebates? How about Jan 25, 2010 with the new Director of The ADOR and Commission Chair? 2 members of H.A.N.A. were at the meeting!! You're right, as a 30 year horseplayer myself, I'm doing nothing! :D

Boomer


Boomer,

Congratulations on your fine accomplishments. I must have touched a soft spot, because your tone is very defensive and in mild sarcastic mode.

I did not say you have done nothing, I asked what you have done about lowering the take and rebates,that you said you were all for.

As you can probably gather, in my view there is much more that can be done and needs to be done and I wish you Godspeed because the game we are both passionate about depends on it.

Sorry if I stepped on your toes.

Best,

rwwupl

[Igeteven]

Boomer,

Congratulations on your fine accomplishments. I must have touched a soft spot, because your tone is very defensive and in mild sarcastic mode.

I did not say you have done nothing, I asked what you have done about lowering the take and rebates,that you said you were all for.

As you can probably gather, in my view there is much more that can be done and needs to be done and I wish you Godspeed because the game we are both passionate about depends on it.

Sorry if I stepped on your toes.

Best,

rwwupl

Too both of you,


If you want to lower the take out for the bettor, the tracks have to do it.

Why, our State wants your money, all they know is how to waste dollars and tax the hell out of everyone.

Check you cell bill for example, if the tracks wants to lower the take out, have them give a instant rebate on winning tickets except for the pick 3's, pick 4's and the pick 6.

Also include a ceiling on rebates on winning tickets to protect the track.

This is just idea to drop the take out and put more money in the pocket of the player.

[Show Me the Wire]

How so? In Ontario, if someone loses $200 at a casino (On average it takes over $2000 in bets to do so), the track gets 20 and the horsemen 20.
If someone loses $200 betting horses (it takes around $1000 in betting on average to do this), the track gets over 90 and the horsemen get over 90.

If you were the track, and the person walked in with a couple of hundred to gamble with, where would you rather they play?


Please clarify. Are you limiting your discussion to booked bets at the casino on horses or wagering on all casino games?

I deleted my earlier post, as I want to understand what you are saying.

[Relwob Owner]

Question-cant it be said that the tracks doomed themselves and totally changed their own model when they agreed to sell their signals for such low fees? I cant think of another bjusiness where the business pays for all of the overheard and costs and then gest such a small percentage when others use their product.

I have heard stories about track execs years ago almost bragging that getting any money they got from their signal was just extra revenue....none saw that off track and on-line betting would become the wave of the future. As it stands now, the tracks seem to have very little incentive to invest any money into their home track.....our sport has gone the way of tennis IMO and the days of tons of people actually coming to the track may be gone. If I owned a track, I would just build a kick ass simulcast facility because with the economics now, it is better to have simulcast bettors come in than on track ones.

[twindouble]

Too both of you,


If you want to lower the take out for the bettor, the tracks have to do it.

Why, our State wants your money, all they know is how to waste dollars and tax the hell out of everyone.

Check you cell bill for example, if the tracks wants to lower the take out, have them give a instant rebate on winning tickets except for the pick 3's, pick 4's and the pick 6.

Also include a ceiling on rebates on winning tickets to protect the track.

This is just idea to drop the take out and put more money in the pocket of the player.

Tracks are in no position at this point to lower takeout, it's just not going to happen, I've said that a dozen times or more sense I came back. There might be a slim shot of getting a better piece of the rebates but seeing that many here and in the industry support the whales so I doubt that will happen. So lets all of us paupers, "minnows" strive to become whales so we can pay very little in takeout and skim the mutual's. :rolleyes:

[InsideThePylons-MW]

We do everything we can marketing wise to get new customers out to the track and get them involved in the sport.

What we fail to do is tell them that if they really like it and want to participate from home when they can't make it to the track.....they are committing a felony.

"Prison or the Track...You Decide" is our new marketing slogan.

[twindouble]

Question-cant it be said that the tracks doomed themselves and totally changed their own model when they agreed to sell their signals for such low fees? I cant think of another bjusiness where the business pays for all of the overheard and costs and then gest such a small percentage when others use their product.

I have heard stories about track execs years ago almost bragging that getting any money they got from their signal was just extra revenue....none saw that off track and on-line betting would become the wave of the future. As it stands now, the tracks seem to have very little incentive to invest any money into their home track.....our sport has gone the way of tennis IMO and the days of tons of people actually coming to the track may be gone. If I owned a track, I would just build a kick ass simulcast facility because with the economics now, it is better to have simulcast bettors come in than on track ones.

Go back a few years in the archives or to the old DRF forum if you can. You'll see where I said "what a dumb ass thing the tracks did by giving away their signal so cheep." Stronach and CDI realized how dumb it was, so they got into the ADW business but the players got squat out of those moves.

I told you so's do nothing but common sense told me a brick and mortar operation cost a lot money to run and there was no way that would work out.

[Show Me the Wire]

I agree the tracks hurt themselves and did not see the impact of on-line and ADW wagering. Maybe the pari-mutuel pool should be split into separate pools. One pool for ADW and on-line and another for on track and track owned otb's.

The ADWs can give all the rebates they want to attract customers, into their own product (pool) and the odds of the pari-mutuel pools will truly reflect the nature of the participants.

[Show Me the Wire]

..... If I owned a track, I would just build a kick ass simulcast facility because with the economics now, it is better to have simulcast bettors come in than on track ones.

Richard Duchossois operated this way for two years, when he closed down AP. It is a very profitable strategy.

[FenceBored]

Question-cant it be said that the tracks doomed themselves and totally changed their own model when they agreed to sell their signals for such low fees? I cant think of another bjusiness where the business pays for all of the overheard and costs and then gest such a small percentage when others use their product.

I have heard stories about track execs years ago almost bragging that getting any money they got from their signal was just extra revenue....none saw that off track and on-line betting would become the wave of the future. As it stands now, the tracks seem to have very little incentive to invest any money into their home track.....our sport has gone the way of tennis IMO and the days of tons of people actually coming to the track may be gone. If I owned a track, I would just build a kick ass simulcast facility because with the economics now, it is better to have simulcast bettors come in than on track ones.

But, on the flip side they needed to have low signal prices to get their foot in the door. Look at how often the word "cannibalize" gets thrown around in discussions even today. Local horsemen wouldn't have agreed to allow receipt of a signal which, in their view, would cut into their share of Harry the Horseplayer's wagers, unless they got a good piece of the action. One of the MidAtlantic Co-op's talking points from the recent throwdown with Tracknet was just that, the harm to MidAtlantic horsemen of a reduction in their share of the local handle on Tracknet races.

[Linny]

Racing has allowed many far simpler games (lotteries, slots!) to overtake them. They have had options that they have left on the table.

First: Betting the races can be as complicated or as easy as you make it. Horseplayers love to scoff at their grandmothers who come to the races without a clue and bet names or numbers or colors and win a heap of money. Why not simply promote the game as a lottery. If a few folks choose to learn more and become educated players, fine. if not they show up and put mney in the pool and if and when they get lucky, they say good things about the game.
Most seasoned players scoff at the idea but honestly why would they not want to lure uneducated money into the pools, just as the lotteries and casinos have?
Why not have a promotion to get folks interested in playing that late double for $2 every day rather than a lottery ticket?

Second: People in the game as horseplayers need to layoff the newbies. New fans arrive with "newbie" questions and get blasted on forums and bulletin boards every day. How long would you stay interested in a game if every novice question is answered with a :bang: or rolling eyes icon?

Third: Tracks need to remind their patrons that unlike casinos, they want you to win. Anyone ever met someone ruled off the track for winning too much. Happens all the time in casinos. Find a system, cash too many bets and they figure you are cheating and you get the heave ho. (To me card counting is a developed skill, that allows better surveying of risk and shouldn't be considered cheating but it will get you tossed.) Winning customers churn money. If you walk in with $200 and hit a nice ticket ealy in the day, odds are you will bet over $200 on the day.

The late Joe Palmer wrote back in the 1950's to the effect that there was something about racing that made it impossible for those who don't like the game to walk by a racetrack without throwing a rock over the fence. Sone people will never be fans but the game needs to rid itself of it's sleezy image and it needs to start from the inside.

[46zilzal]

Second: People in the game as horseplayers need to layoff the newbies. New fans arrive with "newbie" questions and get blasted on forums and bulletin boards every day. How long would you stay interested in a game if every novice question is answered with a :bang: or rolling eyes icon?

.
Many of us actually seek out these clueless souls and help them. EVERY DAY I speak to 5 to 10 young people and suggest sources of information which they can contact to better understand the game.

On forums I only chastise those who think they have it all figured out after a few weeks and lecture those who do with the reminder of Goethe, "There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action."

[The Paddock Room]

Boomer,

Congratulations on your fine accomplishments. I must have touched a soft spot, because your tone is very defensive and in mild sarcastic mode.

I did not say you have done nothing, I asked what you have done about lowering the take and rebates,that you said you were all for.

As you can probably gather, in my view there is much more that can be done and needs to be done and I wish you Godspeed because the game we are both passionate about depends on it.

Sorry if I stepped on your toes.

Best,

rwwupl


I have read several of your posts the past week. You seem very closed-minded and not willing to listen or acknowledge anyone's opinion that differs from your own. More than often you will ridicule posters and call them "trolls".

Not listening to, or recognizing others opinions is sort of funny because this is one of your critiques of your so-called hated "racing executives". This is called irony.

Pot meet Kettle.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Third: Tracks need to remind their patrons that unlike casinos, they want you to win.

Hold on there. There are many track executives, horsemen and racing orginizations that do not want anybody to win. Any money walking out that door is their money and they don't like it. That is how they feel and what they think.

A General Manager at a track where I was their biggest bettor for years told me....."It's a privilege we let you play here"

Chris Scherf...head of the TRA (Thoroughbred Racing Association)...told every track executive and industry leader he talked to that any long term winning horseplayer is STEALING money from the tracks and horsemen. Not one to my knowledge told him he was wrong or that he was a dolt.

[46zilzal]

Hold on there. There are many track executives, horsemen and racing orginizations that do not want anybody to win. Any money walking out that door is their money and they don't like it. That is how they feel and what they think.

.
Since the track makes its money BOOKING the bet, they have NO vested interest in any ONE in particular winning or losing. They want you to bet more since they make the money or holding your wager.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Since the track makes its money BOOKING the bet, they have NO vested interest in any ONE in particular winning or losing. They want you to bet more since they make the money or holding your wager.

Tell it to a sucker.

If 100 people bet $10 in a race and the track takes out their 20%.......does the track want 50 people getting back $16 so they can bet the next race or 1 guy getting the whole $800 and walking out the door to pay his rent with the money?

Racing would much rather have no winners and nobody walking out the door with "their" money. That's what they think.

[twindouble]

Since the track makes its money BOOKING the bet, they have NO vested interest in any ONE in particular winning or losing. They want you to bet more since they make the money or holding your wager.

That was very true until they found out what carryovers can do for handle by drawing in the whales.

[46zilzal]

Tell it to a sucker.

If 100 people bet $10 in a race and the track takes out their 20%.......does the track want 50 people getting back $16 so they can bet the next race or 1 guy getting the whole $800 and walking out the door to pay his rent with the money?
I work hand in hand with Jerry, the mutuels manager, and they don't care as long as the HANDLE, from which they make their money, is UP



They have no vested interest at all

[InsideThePylons-MW]

That was very true until they found out what carryovers can do for handle by drawing in the whales.

Read above post.

The track would much rather have 2000 winning tickets paying $500 each than have 1 ticket paying $1 million.

[Show Me the Wire]

Hold on there. There are many track executives, horsemen and racing orginizations that do not want anybody to win. Any money walking out that door is their money and they don't like it. That is how they feel and what they think.

A General Manager at a track where I was their biggest bettor for years told me....."It's a privilege we let you play here"

Chris Scherf...head of the TRA (Thoroughbred Racing Association)...told every track executive and industry leader he talked to that any long term winning horseplayer is STEALING money from the tracks and horsemen. Not one to my knowledge told him he was wrong or that he was a dolt.

The pari-mutuel system is set up to insure someone wins. I can't imagine someone as sophisticated as you, would believe the track doesn't want anyone to win long-term.

Me thinks they may be referring to the long-term winning players due to rebating as stealing money from the track.

I agree with that assessment and add the rebate system steals money from other players.

[The Paddock Room]

Too both of you,


If you want to lower the take out for the bettor, the tracks have to do it.

Why, our State wants your money, all they know is how to waste dollars and tax the hell out of everyone.

Check you cell bill for example, if the tracks wants to lower the take out, have them give a instant rebate on winning tickets except for the pick 3's, pick 4's and the pick 6.

Also include a ceiling on rebates on winning tickets to protect the track.

This is just idea to drop the take out and put more money in the pocket of the player.

In one Post you are FOR rebates..in another Post you want to limit them.

Which one is it?

:bang: :bang: :bang:

[46zilzal]

Read above post.

The track would much rather have 2000 winning tickets paying $500 each than have 1 ticket paying $1 million.
Would not matter as they would get the same money WHOMEVER cashes and then the "stories" about the big score make others hopeful.

I work in the industry and hear all those IN THE KNOW sprout the same idea: we want a bigger handle and wish the winners the best because we make our
money going IN. More wagered, more we make. SIMPLE mathematics.

[Show Me the Wire]

Read above post.

The track would much rather have 2000 winning tickets paying $500 each than have 1 ticket paying $1 million.

Wow. What does the above have to do with long-term winnings? Of course the track wants multiple winners for the churn. Your talking pure economic principles involving turn over of money, not that the track doesn't want long-term winners.

However, the track won't bar you for hitting a large score, like the casinos will. Why, becuase you are not taking the track's money.

[46zilzal]

However, the track won't bar you for hitting a large score, like the casinos will. Why, because you are not taking the track's money.
BINGO!

[twindouble]

Read above post.

The track would much rather have 2000 winning tickets paying $500 each than have 1 ticket paying $1 million.

Wouldn't they rather have anywhere from 6 million to 16 million in handle in one pool on two days of carryovers? They know very well those whales will be back because of the rebates they get. Churn baby churn, skim baby skim.

[takeout]

A General Manager at a track where I was their biggest bettor for years told me....."It's a privilege we let you play here"

Chris Scherf...head of the TRA (Thoroughbred Racing Association)...told every track executive and industry leader he talked to that any long term winning horseplayer is STEALING money from the tracks and horsemen. Not one to my knowledge told him he was wrong or that he was a dolt.Wow. That pretty much says it all. :bang: Hard to believe white shirts can be that clueless.

[Show Me the Wire]

Wouldn't they rather have anywhere from 6 million to 16 million in handle in one pool on two days of carryovers? They know very well those whales will be back because of the rebates they get. Churn baby churn, skim baby skim.

Depends on the bet. For any single race the track would want as many possible winners, i.e multiple tri's paying $300. and not one paying $10k and one very big winner due to carryovers on the carryover wagers.

[46zilzal]

Wow. That pretty much says it all. :bang: Hard to believe white shirts can be that clueless.
no it isn't as I work with some of that persuasion....wouldn't know what was going on if it bit them in the butt.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Please clarify. Are you limiting your discussion to booked bets at the casino on horses or wagering on all casino games?

I deleted my earlier post, as I want to understand what you are saying.
I'm talking about slots versus parimutuel on track horse race gambling.

[Show Me the Wire]

I'm talking about slots versus parimutuel on track horse race gambling.

Then your posting is misleading for the following reasons.

The casino, house gets all the money. In a pari-mutuel system at a 20% take the track and horsemen split the 20%, while the remaining 80% is distributed among the pool participants. This is vastly different than the casino keeping 100% of the loss for itself.

Pari-mutuel pools are split among all the winners in the pool less the escrow fee(take out).

The problem with horse wagering is the odds, return on investment is much too low for the work, and the effort needed to win, because rebates are allowing whales to skew odds to low.

All these comparisons to poker are red herring types of arguments. In poker the more I bet, raise the stakes, I increase the amount of money I win with a winning hand. It is in my best interest to have a large pot. Also, one of the benefits in poker is you know the minimum pot size

In contrast, a large pari-mutuel pool is not always conducive to a greater pay out on your wager. In fact, the more I wager, I reduce the return of my investment. Inducing more people to wager in the same pool works against me, when they have the same opinion.

In poker you wager on the opinion that you have a better hand than your opponent and that is why you win more by increasing the pot size. The same dynamics do not apply to horse racing and the odds are (pun intended) the larger the pool the less your winnings.

Rebates and whales are the way to go if you want to destroy the current system, as soon the only the whales will have each other to feed off of and they will cannibalize themselves.

[twindouble]

Depends on the bet. For any single race the track would want as many possible winners, i.e multiple tri's paying $300. and not one paying $10k and one very big winner due to carryovers on the carryover wagers.

There's no "depends" in my answer, obviously I was talking about the pick 6. There's no carryovers in the other pools with the exception of the high five in the last race. Don't matter if the pick 6 paid 3 million or 80 grand, like I said,the whales come back because they can churn and skim and make money with those rebates

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Then your posting is misleading for the following reasons.

The casino, house gets all the money. In a pari-mutuel system at a 20% take the track and horsemen split the 20%, while the remaining 80% is distributed among the pool participants. This is vastly different than the casino keeping 100% of the loss for itself.

Pari-mutuel pools are split among all the winners in the pool less the escrow fee(take out).

The problem with horse wagering is the odds, return on investment is much too low for the work, and the effort needed to win, because rebates are allowing whales to skew odds to low.

All these comparisons to poker are red herring types of arguments. In poker the more I bet, raise the stakes, I increase the amount of money I win with a winning hand. It is in my best interest to have a large pot. Also, one of the benefits in poker is you know the minimum pot size

In contrast, a large pari-mutuel pool is not always conducive to a greater pay out on your wager. In fact, the more I wager, I reduce the return of my investment. Inducing more people to wager in the same pool works against me, when they have the same opinion.

In poker you wager on the opinion that you have a better hand than your opponent and that is why you win more by increasing the pot size. The same dynamics do not apply to horse racing and the odds are (pun intended) the larger the pool the less your winnings.

Rebates and whales are the way to go if you want to destroy the current system, as soon the only the whales will have each other to feed off of and they will cannibalize themselves.
I can't read your posts anymore, long winded and YOU JUST DON'T GET IT.
There is nothing misleading about my post if you had a clue of how it works. You don't. End of story.

[Show Me the Wire]

twindouble;

I understood your point.

I was trying to tie in the InsideThePylons-MW's assumptions for a complete frame of reference regarding the escrow's agent view regarding winning players.

Sorry for not being clearer.

[thaskalos]

The average age of an online poker player is what then? (I'll give you a hint): 80% of 'em are barely old enough to gamble! And if you wonder why I used that example, its because there is a HUGE crossover between poker and horse players (I happen to be one of 'em);) Marketing to a younger demographic is EXACTLY what horse racing needs to do, as long as we also make sure that the younger crowd is able to wager ON EVERY TRACK via what they grew up on:

THE INTERNET!!!

Boomer Hi boomer,

I apologize if someone made this point before - I didn't have time to read all the prior comments of this thread. I agree with you that online poker thrives by marketing to young people, but horseracing is different. I too am part of the "huge crossover" that you mentioned. I put my son to bed, and I stay up half the nite playing poker online. It is very convenient, and time limits don't apply. Younger poker players do the same thing...they play all nite, and then, bleery eyed, they go to school or their jobs. Horseracing has a certain time frame in which it is run, and that makes it impossible for young people to participate with any degree of regularity, even online. The hours between 12:00 and 5:00 pm. are for school or work. Early evening hours are for other family or business responsibilities. Unless horses start running after 10:00 pm, younger people will not have the impact in horseracing that they do in online poker.

[Show Me the Wire]

I can't read your posts anymore, long winded and YOU JUST DON'T GET IT.
There is nothing misleading about my post if you had a clue of how it works. You don't. End of story.


How can you compare playing against the house versus pari-mutuel pools? The house keeps all the money, games are based on fixed probabilities, and the return is known beforehand.

The pari-mutuel system does not allow the house to keep all the money, as there is no house. The return is uncertain as it is based on playing against or with other participants opinions, taking into account randomness.

You should read the definition of pari-mutuel wagering, it is not by any means anything you are professing.

The larger your investment in a pari-mutuel pool it works against you as you bet against yourself.

Now tell me how I don't understand how gambling against the house and against fixed probabilities is the same as gambling into a pari-mutuel pool without fixed probabailities.

BTW my posts are detailed, to facillitate discussion about the specifics.

Your responses remind me of a certain mind set, you know what is best for everyone, but can't explain how or why.

[NTamm1215]

Send home more winners by lowering the take and you will have more customers, and that will solve your marketing problem... and the problems of everyone concerned... does it really matter what the age of your customers are if they bet real U.S. dollars?



So lowering the Win-Place-Show takeout to 10% in NY would spawn an influx of all kinds of new players?

I know you want the takeout lowered, and I do as much as anyone else, but you're way off base if you think lowering the takeout is going to be the panacea of this game.

NT

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Hi boomer,

I apologize if someone made this point before - I didn't have time to read all the prior comments of this thread. I agree with you that online poker thrives by marketing to young people, but horseracing is different. I too am part of the "huge crossover" that you mentioned. I put my son to bed, and I stay up half the nite playing poker online. It is very convenient, and time limits don't apply. Younger poker players do the same thing...they play all nite, and then, bleery eyed, they go to school or their jobs. Horseracing has a certain time frame in which it is run, and that makes it impossible for young people to participate with any degree of regularity, even online. The hours between 12:00 and 5:00 pm. are for school or work. Early evening hours are for other family or business responsibilities. Unless horses start running after 10:00 pm, younger people will not have the impact in horseracing that they do in online poker.
Young people play US tracks at Betfair from 12 to 8 PM EST, in Europe that is around 5PM to 1 AM their time.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

How can you compare playing against the house versus pari-mutuel pools? The house keeps all the money, games are based on fixed probabilities, and the return is known beforehand.

The pari-mutuel system does not allow the house to keep all the money, as there is no house. The return is uncertain as it is based on playing against or with other participants opinions, taking into account randomness.

You should read the definition of pari-mutuel wagering, it is not by any means anything you are professing.

The larger your investment in a pari-mutuel pool it works against you as you bet against yourself.

Now tell me how I don't understand how gambling against the house and against fixed probabilities is the same as gambling into a pari-mutuel pool without fixed probabailities.

BTW my posts are detailed, to facillitate discussion about the specifics.

Your responses remind me of a certain mind set, you know what is best for everyone, but can't explain how or why.

Geez. One more time. The slots system is set to return about $920 for every $1000 bet. That means that the average bettor gets $2000 in action before they lose their $160. The track gets $16 of that and the horsemen get $16 of that in Ontario.

Now, if that same bettor was an average handicapper/bettor, he would lose the $160 after making $800 in bets at the track on average.

Or maybe this will be simple enough that even you can comprehend it:

Lets say a track does $1 million in handle on their live product. It would be expected that the public lost close to $200,000. Of that the track gets over 90k as does the horsemen.

Now lets say the track is closed that day, and instead, every player bet at slots instead. Again, they would lose $200,000....they would bet over 2 million though before losing it.....and the track would get 20k and the horsemen 20k.

If you don't get it this time, either you put me on ignore, or I'll put you on ignore...deal?

[twindouble]

twindouble;

I understood your point.

I was trying to tie in the InsideThePylons-MW's assumptions for a complete frame of reference regarding the escrow's agent view regarding winning players.

Sorry for not being clearer.

I can agree when it comes to the other pools in the early races especially, it's better for the track when it comes to churning smaller payoffs, that's what they would like to happen so the money will go back through the windows. As stated they don't have any control over the payoffs, that was the normal run of the mill thinking until rebates and whales came into the picture blowing the average player out of the pick 6 game and in many cases the pick 4. Tracks padding the conditions to create carryovers, if that was a loser for them, why would they do that? A 16 million dollar pool is far from being a loser that's why.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I can agree when it comes to the other pools in the early races especially, it's better for the track when it comes to churning smaller payoffs, that's what they would like to happen so the money will go back through the windows. As stated they don't have any control over the payoffs, that was the normal run of the mill thinking until rebates and whales came into the picture blowing the average player out of the pick 6 game and in many cases the pick 4. Tracks padding the conditions to create carryovers, if that was a loser for them, why would they do that? A 16 million dollar pool is far from being a loser that's why.
You are confused on the pick 6 thing. Syndicates were out there long before rebates came into favor.
The fact is that a big Pick 6 pool should appeal to everyone because it has a positive takeout associated with it once it gets big enough.

The only thing with respect to whales is they are big bettors to begin with and may be more inclined to make a few big tickets, but it isn't the rebate that motivates them.

[thaskalos]

Young people play US tracks at Betfair from 12 to 8 PM EST, in Europe that is around 5PM to 1 AM their time. Yeah...but what do young people in the USA do?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Yeah...but what do young people in the USA do?
That has nothing to do with the point I'm refuting.
My point is that give young people a shot to win, and they'll play when the events go.

[Show Me the Wire]

Geez. One more time. The slots system is set to return about $920 for every $1000 bet. That means that the average bettor gets $2000 in action before they lose their $160. The track gets $16 of that and the horsemen get $16 of that in Ontario.

Now, if that same bettor was an average handicapper/bettor, he would lose the $160 after making $800 in bets at the track on average.

Or maybe this will be simple enough that even you can comprehend it:

Lets say a track does $1 million in handle on their live product. It would be expected that the public lost close to $200,000. Of that the track gets over 90k as does the horsemen.

Now lets say the track is closed that day, and instead, every player bet at slots instead. Again, they would lose $200,000....they would bet over 2 million though before losing it.....and the track would get 20k and the horsemen 20k.

If you don't get it this time, either you put me on ignore, or I'll put you on ignore...deal?


Oh, I see we are in different frames of references. You are describing a specific situation in which a tracks are sharing in slot revenues.

Initially, I was confused about your post and that is why I asked for clarification, before I posted my response.

I understand what you are saying now :ThmbUp:

This is whyI was confused. the original question is this:

EDUCATE don't inundate with marketing baloney, EDUCATE the fans to see how much parimutuel wagering has it all over casino types, but then that is too obvious and goes against THEIR profit margins.

I believe the question was talking about educating the individual and not where the track preferred the individual to wager.

Remember not all jurisdictions allow slot money.

[twindouble]

Geez. One more time. The slots system is set to return about $920 for every $1000 bet. That means that the average bettor gets $2000 in action before they lose their $160. The track gets $16 of that and the horsemen get $16 of that in Ontario.

Now, if that same bettor was an average handicapper/bettor, he would lose the $160 after making $800 in bets at the track on average.

Or maybe this will be simple enough that even you can comprehend it:

Lets say a track does $1 million in handle on their live product. It would be expected that the public lost close to $200,000. Of that the track gets over 90k as does the horsemen.

Now lets say the track is closed that day, and instead, every player bet at slots instead. Again, they would lose $200,000....they would bet over 2 million though before losing it.....and the track would get 20k and the horsemen 20k.

If you don't get it this time, either you put me on ignore, or I'll put you on ignore...deal?

How many slot machines are there in one casino?

[rwwupl]

I have read several of your posts the past week. You seem very closed-minded and not willing to listen or acknowledge anyone's opinion that differs from your own. More than often you will ridicule posters and call them "trolls".

Not listening to, or recognizing others opinions is sort of funny because this is one of your critiques of your so-called hated "racing executives". This is called irony.

Pot meet Kettle.


For a new poster on Pace, You seem to be confused about a lot of things.
The only poster I have ever called a troll is you...You have a reputation of a trouble maker. Why don't you return to your home base and stop the planned harassment for purposes only known to yourself :( ?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

How many slot machines are there in one casino?
Depends, but they also have different win rates per track at different times.
At one time Fort Erie had 1200 machines and a very high win per machine rate (win meaning profit for the machine). They are cutting down to under 500 machines this year and their win rate has fallen off the map over the years.
With figures I have an idea about, when slots there were the most popular in the early 2000's, over $130 million (might have been $170 million, I can't remember) was lost by customers in one year. $13 million went to purses (added to their cut from mutuel betting). Slots have now leveled off to where $40 million is lost a year by Fort Erie casino visitors (the track gets $4million as do the horsemen).
Purses have dropped significantly as has racing days. In fact, the track can't even break even now without extra subsidies.

Can you imagine if the $40 million was lost at the track on horses instead? The purses would be significant again.

[thaskalos]

Young people play US tracks at Betfair from 12 to 8 PM EST, in Europe that is around 5PM to 1 AM their time. Oh...I see what you mean. Young people in Europe play the horses between 5pm and 1am their time. Would they play if it was 12:00pm to 5:00pm their time? How could they?

[The Paddock Room]

For a new poster on Pace, You seem to be confused about a lot of things.
The only poster I have ever called a troll is you...You have a reputation of a trouble maker. Why don't you return to your home base and stop the planned harassment for purposes only known to yourself :( ?

Typical response. :liar: :liar: :liar:

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Oh...I see what you mean. Young people in Europe play the horses between 5pm and 1am their time. Would they play if it was 12:00pm to 5:00pm their time? How could they?
Somebody does, the pools on British racing are huge on Betfair.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Typical response. :liar: :liar: :liar:
Dude, you have been outed. If you want friendly advice, get your disingenuous butt off the board.

This board is pretty honest. No one needs your drivel here.

You were made a complete fool yesterday on the other thread, contradicting yourself in the end because you were either too hammered or you couldn't remember what you posted.

In the end you made no sense.

Seriously, do this board a favor and go back to that crappy board you live on, you belong there.

[The Paddock Room]

Dude, you have been outed. If you want friendly advice, get your disingenuous butt off the board.

This board is pretty honest. No one needs your dribble here.

You were made a complete fool yesterday on the other thread, contradicting yourself in the end because you were either too hammered or you couldn't remember what you posted.

In the end you made no sense.

Seriously, do this board a favor and go back to that crappy board you live on, you belong there.

I would suggest "drivel"

[FenceBored]

I would suggest "drivel"

Perhaps he meant that you dribble on yourself while typing drivel.

[46zilzal]

Somebody does, the pools on British racing are huge on Betfair.
I agree and many of my friends who are serious bettors are flocking there when they can.....I am thinking of joining them very soon.

Cangamble, PM on how I can start that immediately from a Canadian address please


now that neither or us are going to be the GM at the Fort, we need a steady income......

[The Paddock Room]

Perhaps he meant that you dribble on yourself while typing drivel.

Or maybe it was a basketball reference?

All of these haters are the same. Look at the way they talk to people who have a different opinion, then they do. They are are the ones that should be banned. But I guess if you are an "authorized advertiser" of this site that gives you a free pass.

If I had nickle for every Post this tough guy wrote that says "Let me go slow for you, and maybe you can understand"..I would have a lot of nickles.

Some of these losing horseplayers are very bitter, indeed!

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Perhaps he meant that you dribble on yourself while typing drivel.
I picture the kook dribbling. But I changed it to drivel.

[Relwob Owner]

Go back a few years in the archives or to the old DRF forum if you can. You'll see where I said "what a dumb ass thing the tracks did by giving away their signal so cheep." Stronach and CDI realized how dumb it was, so they got into the ADW business but the players got squat out of those moves.

I told you so's do nothing but common sense told me a brick and mortar operation cost a lot money to run and there was no way that would work out.


Nice call....there are a lot of things that produce "armchair quarterbacks" but it really seems like racing is a sport where fans like us really could do better than those in charge.

Funny that Stronach got into the ADW business but also dumped a ton of money into Gulfstream which business wise, may not have been the best move....

The latest move I see regards the racinos getting table games, which I believe give the racing a much lower percentage of the take and thinking that it wont have a negative effect on purses......

[twindouble]

Depends, but they also have different win rates per track at different times.
At one time Fort Erie had 1200 machines and a very high win per machine rate (win meaning profit for the machine). They are cutting down to under 500 machines this year and their win rate has fallen off the map over the years.
With figures I have an idea about, when slots there were the most popular in the early 2000's, over $130 million (might have been $170 million, I can't remember) was lost by customers in one year. $13 million went to purses (added to their cut from mutuel betting). Slots have now leveled off to where $40 million is lost a year by Fort Erie casino visitors (the track gets $4million as do the horsemen).
Purses have dropped significantly as has racing days. In fact, the track can't even break even now without extra subsidies.

Can you imagine if the $40 million was lost at the track on horses instead? The purses would be significant again.

Ok, lets take that 1200 machines. Now if I went in with two grand in my pocket, what are the odds that I would sit down at a machine that's going to give a random jockpot payoff before I go through $500 or more on a dollar machine? Keep in mind, I have 1200 machines to chouse from and some had ready payed off but I don't know what ones.

In horse racing you only have on the average of 9 horses to a field, any fairly good handicapper can knock out 4 or more in one race, now your down to 5 horses that can be boxed up in the super or tri for a good "jackpot. Now you tell me that horse racing can't compete with slots.

To me slots are a fools bet like the lotteries. I know your not saying slots are a good bet but there's no way anyone can compare slots to racing. That's what I want to drive home and I know this is a repeat.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Ok, lets take that 1200 machines. Now if I went in with two grand in my pocket, what are the odds that I would sit down at a machine that's going to give a random jockpot payoff before I go through $500 or more on a dollar machine? Keep in mind, I have 1200 machines to chouse from and some had ready payed off but I don't know what ones.

In horse racing you only have on the average of 9 horses to a field, any fairly good handicapper can knock out 4 or more in one race, now your down to 5 horses that can be boxed up in the super or tri for a good "jackpot. Now you tell me that horse racing can't compete with slots.

To me slots are a fools bet like the lotteries. I know your not saying slots are a good bet but there's no way anyone can compare slots to racing. That's what I want to drive home and I know this is a repeat.
The reality is that if $1 million is bet on track at a racetrack on their live product, $200,000 will be lost. That is how takeout works, no matter how good or bad the handicappers at the track are.

[tzipi]

To me slots are a fools bet like the lotteries. I know your not saying slots are a good bet but there's no way anyone can compare slots to racing. That's what I want to drive home and I know this is a repeat.

But slots do how much buisness compared to racing. They are WAY ahead. Alot of people think horses are a fools bet.

[twindouble]

Nice call....there are a lot of things that produce "armchair quarterbacks" but it really seems like racing is a sport where fans like us really could do better than those in charge.

Funny that Stronach got into the ADW business but also dumped a ton of money into Gulfstream which business wise, may not have been the best move....

The latest move I see regards the racinos getting table games, which I believe give the racing a much lower percentage of the take and thinking that it wont have a negative effect on purses......

It's one thing to be forward looking making improvements but it's another thing when you have no clue about the customer base or the prevailing economic conditions. Yes, handicappers are good at picking up on things that others over look and have common sense.

[twindouble]

The reality is that if $1 million is bet on track at a racetrack on their live product, $200,000 will be lost. That is how takeout works, no matter how good or bad the handicappers at the track are.

Did you really think I thought everyone could be a winner? If so, I better bail out of here.

[Relwob Owner]

The reality is that if $1 million is bet on track at a racetrack on their live product, $200,000 will be lost. That is how takeout works, no matter how good or bad the handicappers at the track are.

Correct and I think we all know that by now. Your view on takeout is a part of the puzzle and you seem to be extremely knowledgable about it. I do get the feeling sometimes that you are repeating yourself about the issue and at times, not realizing that takeout isnt the only issue Two questions:

1. Do you know the numbers for slot takeout or the percentage of winners on slots?
2. When comparing the two does it make sense there there is most a huge difference in overhead?

[twindouble]

Correct and I think we all know that by now. Your view on takeout is a part of the puzzle and you seem to be extremely knowledgable about it. I do get the feeling sometimes that you are repeating yourself about the issue and at times, not realizing that takeout isnt the only issue Two questions:

1. Do you know the numbers for slot takeout or the percentage of winners on slots?
2. When comparing the two does it make sense there there is most a huge difference in overhead?

A good percentage of that million dollar handle is churned money.

[Robert Goren]

1. Do you know the numbers for slot takeout or the percentage of winners on slots?
2. When comparing the two does it make sense there there is most a huge difference in overhead?There it is in a nutshell, horse racing must cut its overhead.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Correct and I think we all know that by now. Your view on takeout is a part of the puzzle and you seem to be extremely knowledgable about it. I do get the feeling sometimes that you are repeating yourself about the issue and at times, not realizing that takeout isnt the only issue Two questions:

1. Do you know the numbers for slot takeout or the percentage of winners on slots?
2. When comparing the two does it make sense there there is most a huge difference in overhead?
There are most likely no long term winners at slots outside of those who hit astronomical jackpots.
The slot percentage takeout on average is around 8%
http://americancasinoguide.com/SlotPayback/slotinfo.shtml

The price to put on the show might even be higher at slots.

Take the Fort Erie casino for example, it takes in $40 million in gross profits, gives out $4 million to the horsemen, $4 million to the track and another $1 million plus to the town.
They have 300 government employees and when you take benefits and everything else into consideration plus power costs and other costs I was told the Ontario Lottery Gaming Corp barely breaks even at that location.

But the reality is that if the house hold on slots went higher, they would make less gross profits.

[Relwob Owner]

There are most likely no long term winners at slots outside of those who hit astronomical jackpots.
The slot percentage takeout on average is around 8%
http://americancasinoguide.com/SlotPayback/slotinfo.shtml

The price to put on the show might even be higher at slots.

Take the Fort Erie casino for example, it takes in $40 million in gross profits, gives out $4 million to the horsemen, $4 million to the track and another $1 million plus to the town.
They have 300 government employees and when you take benefits and everything else into consideration plus power costs and other costs I was told the Ontario Lottery Gaming Corp barely breaks even at that location.

But the reality is that if the house hold on slots went higher, they would make less gross profits.



Great info....I had never seen the exact numbers and it makes it much easier to compare

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Great info....I had never seen the exact numbers and it makes it much easier to compare
The main point here is that the cost to put on the show is at arm's length to what the optimum takeout or hold is.

The optimum takeout (or price point) should be sought by all businesses, especially ones that complain about the cost to put on the show.

[twindouble]

There it is in a nutshell, horse racing must cut its overhead.

That's tough to do because there's a lot of fixed costs to any track operation that are always going up. They could cut purses,(some have) payroll, advertizing, take control fo their signal, also cut other minor expences.

[Relwob Owner]

The main point here is that the cost to put on the show is at arm's length to what the optimum takeout or hold is.

The optimum takeout (or price point) should be sought by all businesses, especially ones that complain about the cost to put on the show.


I fully understand the concept of takeout and the issues involved when it is high....you have posted it over and over again and I would say that your position is solidified. I am quite familiar with general business practices myself....I was simply looking for a comparison, which you were kind enough to provide with the slot numbers, of which I didnt know the specifics.

You did bring up the business end so I would ask you-do you know of many other businesses that put on the whole show and get such a small cut of the revenue, as is the case with tracks and their signal rates? Do you think that if the rates were adjusted to other tracks and ADW's, that would afford the tracks the opportunity to lower takeout? I am by no means a full expert on this, just throwing out questions that I often wonder about in an effort to get better informed.

[Robert Goren]

The main point here is that the cost to put on the show is at arm's length to what the optimum takeout or hold is.

The optimum takeout (or price point) should be sought by all businesses, especially ones that complain about the cost to put on the show.I don't have any idea what the optimum take out is, but I am pretty sure it is lower than it is now. This what the business wants, as a customer I want to be less than the optimum take out. I can not see why anyone would want it to be more. Sometimes I think horse people think the optimum take out is a lot higher than it is now. Some times I think you will have an easier time explaining the Laffer curve to a horse than you will to his owner. JMO

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I fully understand the concept of takeout and the issues involved when it is high....you have posted it over and over again and I would say that your position is solidified. I am quite familiar with general business practices myself....I was simply looking for a comparison, which you were kind enough to provide with the slot numbers, of which I didnt know the specifics.

You did bring up the business end so I would ask you-do you know of many other businesses that put on the whole show and get such a small cut of the revenue, as is the case with tracks and their signal rates? Do you think that if the rates were adjusted to other tracks and ADW's, that would afford the tracks the opportunity to lower takeout? I am by no means a full expert on this, just throwing out questions that I often wonder about in an effort to get better informed.

Lets not forget that only 20% of handle goes through internet betting. Some tracks have their own ADWs.

Tracks are not known for lowering takeout. Take Woodbine for example, they have their own ADW so they are basically buying signals for even a lower price than most ADWs buy them at because bricks and mortars (racetracks, simulcast centers and ADWs get better rates generally). So they are definitely not suffering by the fact that signal fees are lower than the what the guest gets to keep, because they are the guest on every track but Woodbine and Mohawk which is theirs.

Remember, most tracks sell their signal for what they say are low rates, but they also buy signals for low rates, so a track that uses its facilities for simulcasting or has their own ADW or both, probably derives more revenue from tracks other than their own.

As for stand alone ADWs, there aren't many that are making a huge net profit. Check out the financials for Youbet, etc. They all have overhead and invest in innovations, as well as having their own payrolls. So in a way, they are part of the cost of putting on the show.

[Robert Goren]

That's tough to do because there's a lot of fixed costs to any track operation that are always going up. They could cut purses,(some have) payroll, advertizing, take control fo their signal, also cut other minor expences.If they can't find a way to cut their cost, they are going to go out of business. There is no way that business model that they are working under now is sustainable. JMO

[Robert Goren]

Check out the financials for Youbet, etc. That would put the fear of God in you. Youbet was one step away bankruptcy since the time that it was started until Twinspires acquired it. A very small step at that.

[twindouble]

If they can't find a way to cut their cost, they are going to go out of business. There is no way that business model that they are working under now is sustainable. JMO

As we speak, there's a consolidation going on. There's so many unsettled things in every venue, legal, political, slots, track closing, synthetic tracks, ADW buyouts, breeders dropping out, players cutting back or dropping out and we won't have a dam say in anything. We just have to wait for the dust to settle to see what's left and then go from there. Before the year is out we will know the story.

[thespaah]

Wrong!
Tracks mgments shpuld most definitely marketyouunger people.
That is the problem.
Tracks ignore the fact that without new people replacing the older ones, the fan base will dry up and vanish.
This is an urgent call to every track that wants to survive to market market market!!!!
DO whatever it takes to get people in the door. Offer incentives such as wagering vouchers.
Have the track handicapper appear live before the day's/night's races to take questions from the newbies.
Have college nights. Drop refreshment stand prices.
HIre customer service people that are outgoing and helpful.
Citi-Field in NYC has people all over the stadium that make the fans feel welcome. This is a huge change from the old staff at Shea Stadium where those people gave the impression they were put off by questions from fans.

[Relwob Owner]

Wrong!
Tracks mgments shpuld most definitely marketyouunger people.
That is the problem.
Tracks ignore the fact that without new people replacing the older ones, the fan base will dry up and vanish.
This is an urgent call to every track that wants to survive to market market market!!!!
DO whatever it takes to get people in the door. Offer incentives such as wagering vouchers.
Have the track handicapper appear live before the day's/night's races to take questions from the newbies.
Have college nights. Drop refreshment stand prices.
HIre customer service people that are outgoing and helpful.
Citi-Field in NYC has people all over the stadium that make the fans feel welcome. This is a huge change from the old staff at Shea Stadium where those people gave the impression they were put off by questions from fans.


I disagree slightly....

1. Take care of current customers, who could leave the game any day if things continue as they are.
2. Implement things mentioned in your post

[thespaah]

This is the problem Boomer, we're being pigeon holed as idiots because of their dissatisfaction with whats gone on at other tracks, even though we're doing exactly what our players have asked for. (free parking, free admission, rebates, voucher giveaways instead of corny prizes, better food, better tv's, atmosphere, the list goes on)

My boss always says, we are having to make up for 30 years of racing not doing the right stuff to market it's product and treat it's customer well.

As far as takeout, that is something the marketing departments have nothing to do with, that is the state, horseman, management and all of their simulcast partners.

For takeout to be lowered it is going to take more than a rogue track or two, because other places wont take their signal if they are going to make less money. It will take a grass roots organization to get that done, hopefully it can get done before it's too late.
Ahh takeout...20..25 sometimes as much as 30%
What's the rake at a typical casino poker table? 5%...
There's a big problem.
Casino managements not tied to racetracks would like it just fine if the horseracing business went out of business.

Horsement who bitch and moan about handle decreasing are part of the problem. Greedy politicians are another part of the problem.
Both these entities are directly resopnsible for the confiscatory percentages of the gambling dollar being skimmed right off the top.

[Buckeye]

That is correct, and the Markets will have their say. Everyone and anyone can either hear it or ignore it, but Regardless, the Markets will have their day in Court. It will mean destruction for some and survival for others. That's the way it goes.

"it's All for the best in the best of all possible worlds."

Candide by Voltaire.

[twindouble]

Wrong!
Tracks mgments shpuld most definitely marketyouunger people.
That is the problem.
Tracks ignore the fact that without new people replacing the older ones, the fan base will dry up and vanish.
This is an urgent call to every track that wants to survive to market market market!!!!
DO whatever it takes to get people in the door. Offer incentives such as wagering vouchers.
Have the track handicapper appear live before the day's/night's races to take questions from the newbies.
Have college nights. Drop refreshment stand prices.
HIre customer service people that are outgoing and helpful.
Citi-Field in NYC has people all over the stadium that make the fans feel welcome. This is a huge change from the old staff at Shea Stadium where those people gave the impression they were put off by questions from fans.

I don't know who your responding to.

[DeanT]

So lowering the Win-Place-Show takeout to 10% in NY would spawn an influx of all kinds of new players?

I know you want the takeout lowered, and I do as much as anyone else, but you're way off base if you think lowering the takeout is going to be the panacea of this game.

NT
Nothing is a panacea. If it was everyone would be doing it. Betfair works harder than any place I know - legal, illegal or otherwise (imo).

But take is a big part of things. We, sooner or later will have to decide if we want to grow handles, or keep losing them, and take is the quickest way to decide that.

Here is what handle would be, using racings own figures regarding churn. Do we want higher handles and a chance at growth, or do we keep wanting to slide down the drain with incremental changes that mean very little? Someone minding the store must decide (in my opinion).

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2010/03/2009-thoroughbred-handle-at-different.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CG5TVR2hGjE/S5etap2J7VI/AAAAAAAAAOc/JiTJhXcYQrc/s400/hanatakeout111.png

[twindouble]

Nothing is a panacea. If it was everyone would be doing it. Betfair works harder than any place I know - legal, illegal or otherwise (imo).

But take is a big part of things. We, sooner or later will have to decide if we want to grow handles, or keep losing them, and take is the quickest way to decide that.

Here is what handle would be, using racings own figures regarding churn. Do we want higher handles and a chance at growth, or do we keep wanting to slide down the drain with incremental changes that mean very little? Someone minding the store must decide (in my opinion).

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2010/03/2009-thoroughbred-handle-at-different.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CG5TVR2hGjE/S5etap2J7VI/AAAAAAAAAOc/JiTJhXcYQrc/s400/hanatakeout111.png

How are those figures derived?

[Show Me the Wire]

You did bring up the business end so I would ask you-do you know of many other businesses that put on the whole show and get such a small cut of the revenue, as is the case with tracks and their signal rates? Do you think that if the rates were adjusted to other tracks and ADW's, that would afford the tracks the opportunity to lower takeout? I am by no means a full expert on this, just throwing out questions that I often wonder about in an effort to get better informed.

Relwob Owner:

Great question. Did you get a satisfactory explanation to your inquiry?

[Buckeye]

you are right Dean, and just for laughs, why not lower the take by 1%-- whoever can? Who can that hurt, the State? We are the state! or at least we were. If we can't get our desired result, then undesired consequences are forthcoming. All for the best. Set the game up right (my new plea) or where is the fun anymore? We are the customer, and as such will dictate how this game is played. The power rests.

[Charlie D]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CG5TVR2hGjE/S5etap2J7VI/AAAAAAAAAOc/JiTJhXcYQrc/s400/hanatakeout111.png


Ok Dean


I've looked at your chart and I'm now asking myself why the sports leaders are not climbing over each other to set thier take at 8, 10,12, 14 percent.


Can you answer this please??

[Buckeye]

Charlie, I'll answer that, because they don't give a shit, and yet many, will soon be going down (out of business). Who really "owns" these tracks anyway? Price the product correctly or else.

[Buckeye]

Price the product correctly or else.

How's that for a marketing strategy?

We'll know if they priced it low enough when people buy it.

[DeanT]

Ok Dean


I've looked at your chart and I'm now asking myself why the sports leaders are not climbing over each other to set thier take at 8, 10,12, 14 percent.


Can you answer this please??

Charlie,

I dont know. I am just a dumb horseplayer, but racing tells us that their churn rate is seven, and if so they would maximize revenues to purses at a 14% take. Using their own numbers, their take is far too high.

Why don't they lower it and make more money? I have no idea.

[Show Me the Wire]

Ok Dean


I've looked at your chart and I'm now asking myself why the sports leaders are not climbing over each other to set thier take at 8, 10,12, 14 percent.


Can you answer this please??

Maybe, because theory doesn't always work in practice?

[Charlie D]

I'm just a dumb bettor too Dean and what i see is unhappy bettors for one reason or another and that can't be good for the future of the business.

[Charlie D]

Maybe, because theory doesn't always work in practice?


MMm

I'm certainly no expert on these kind of topics SMTW, but Betfairs success may suggest low take does work in practice.

[Dan H]

The tracks should be kissing the ass of any player over the age of 55 years of age.Has it ever occurred to you that ...

... "you" may be the reason young people don't go to the track?

[Show Me the Wire]

MMm

I'm no expert on these kind of topics SMTW, but Betfairs success may suggest low take does work in practice.

Betfair is a different type of wagering platform. I would think if you are betting on an exchange as long as it is secure, a lower cost to wager would be a driving factor.

Tracks have a limited number of events to wager upon each and every day.

[Igeteven]

Wrong!
Tracks mgments shpuld most definitely marketyouunger people.
That is the problem.
Tracks ignore the fact that without new people replacing the older ones, the fan base will dry up and vanish.
This is an urgent call to every track that wants to survive to market market market!!!!
DO whatever it takes to get people in the door. Offer incentives such as wagering vouchers.
Have the track handicapper appear live before the day's/night's races to take questions from the newbies.
Have college nights. Drop refreshment stand prices.
HIre customer service people that are outgoing and helpful.
Citi-Field in NYC has people all over the stadium that make the fans feel welcome. This is a huge change from the old staff at Shea Stadium where those people gave the impression they were put off by questions from fans.

They should treat all fans as gold, I like your post :) :)

[Charlie D]

Betfair is a different type of wagering platform. I would think if you are betting on an exchange as long as it is secure, a lower cost to wager would be a driving factor.

Tracks have a limited number of events to wager upon each and every day.


I don't think we'd see 1/2 million pounds plus traded on races though if Betfair charged 20,25 26% instead of 2-5%

[The Paddock Room]

I disagree slightly....

1. Take care of current customers, who could leave the game any day if things continue as they are.


The core base of old, male horse racing fans. The ones that might take a shower once a week, and who may not have eaten a piece of fruit in a month. The ones that would run over their mothers to get a bet in. These lemmings will never leave the game..until they go the way of all flesh and are carted away. TRUTH!

[my_nameaintearl]

someone got a case of old man syndrome in this thread

[The Paddock Room]

How are those figures derived?

I am waiting for Dean T to answer this question.

I am guessing part of the answer includes "spread cheeks, reach in, and pull out".

[Igeteven]

I am waiting for Dean T to answer this question.

I am guessing part of the answer includes "spread cheeks, reach in, and pull out".


Why did you lock you private messages, :confused:

[The Paddock Room]

Why did you lock you private messages, :confused:

I didnt lock any private messages..I recieved a couple from andymays.

[Igeteven]

I didnt lock any private messages..I recieved a couple from andymays.

Ok, I try again,

Thanks

[The Paddock Room]

Ok, I try again,

Thanks

OK

[BlueShoe]

About free admissions and parking.But does it really help handle or even attendance? Nope.
It certainly has helped in SoCal. The new mini satellite at the Commerce Card Club is doing quite well. Since Fairplex went to free parking and admission business is up sharply. On a previous thread was discussed the recent CHRB meeting and new chairman Blackpools agenda. The full transcript of that meeting is available on the CHRB website. Very long, it took about an hour to read it, but quite interesting. The profibility of Commerce and Fairplex are mentioned, as is the insistance that the present business model must be changed. Free parking and admission will get patrons through the doors, and once inside they will wager, and the sums wagered will more than make up for the lost revenue of parking and admissions. Will saving 2 to 10 dollars a trip make a differnce? Yes it will. Not to middle aged persons with good steady jobs, but to young people with limited funds and older players it will. One of the drawbacks to going racing is the high initial outlay, and saving even a relatively small amount could make the difference in going racing or staying home. Another area that needs cost cutting is refreshment costs. Ten bucks for a sandwhich and small soda and two dollars for a cup of coffee is too much, and prices should be trimmed. The idea is very simple; make racing more affordable and you will get people to patronize your facility and wager.

[tzipi]

It certainly has helped in SoCal. The new mini satellite at the Commerce Card Club is doing quite well. Since Fairplex went to free parking and admission business is up sharply. On a previous thread was discussed the recent CHRB meeting and new chairman Blackpools agenda. The full transcript of that meeting is available on the CHRB website. Very long, it took about an hour to read it, but quite interesting. The profibility of Commerce and Fairplex are mentioned, as is the insistance that the present business model must be changed. Free parking and admission will get patrons through the doors, and once inside they will wager, and the sums wagered will more than make up for the lost revenue of parking and admissions. Will saving 2 to 10 dollars a trip make a differnce? Yes it will. Not to middle aged persons with good steady jobs, but to young people with limited funds and older players it will. One of the drawbacks to going racing is the high initial outlay, and saving even a relatively small amount could make the difference in going racing or staying home. Another area that needs cost cutting is refreshment costs. Ten bucks for a sandwhich and small soda and two dollars for a cup of coffee is too much, and prices should be trimmed. The idea is very simple; make racing more affordable and you will get people to patronize your facility and wager.


Aqueduct went to free parking and admission but they are dropping in attendance year after year. I enjoy going once in a while but the free parking and admission did not boost attendance.
Belmont is attendance and admission fee and even though I think they could do without it I think it's worth it. I go almost everyday.

[The Paddock Room]

Ok, I try again,

Thanks

I will answer your PM tomorrow.

I need to get crackin' on these OZ PP's, mate.

[Igeteven]

Aqueduct went to free parking and admission but they are dropping in attendance year after year. I enjoy going once in a while but the free parking and admission did not boost attendance.
Belmont is attendance and admission fee and even though I think they could do without it I think it's worth it. I go almost everyday.


Do they go after the seniors?

Do they make arrangements with the seniors out there to travel to the race track?

Do they give any type of break to them?

[tzipi]

Do they go after the seniors?

Do they make arrangements with the seniors out there to travel to the race track?

Do they give any type of break to them?

No most of the seniors take buses to Yonkers for their casino. Their was an article in the NY Daily News a couple months ago how so many seniors are making the health Access-A-Ride buses take them to Yonkers :D

[Igeteven]

No most of the seniors take buses to Yonkers for their casino. Their was an article in the NY Daily News a couple months ago how so many seniors are making the health Access-A-Ride buses take them to Yonkers :D

Again , an UN TAP market

[tzipi]

Again , an UN TAP market

What's untapped? The seniors know about racing and casinos. They get rides and goto Yonkers.
Go bring them more buses and say you want to goto Aqueduct or Yonkers that also has a casino? Yonkers dominates older groups because of their casino.

[DeanT]

I am waiting for Dean T to answer this question.

It is in the article. I did not address Twindouble because I know he will read the article, in due time.

It refers to churn and its relation to gamblers ruin. It is using racings own numbers, not mine, so if you do not agree with it, your concerns should be addressed to them.

As for the second part of your comment, if you would like to honestly discuss growing California racing, by increasing revenues for horse owners and racetracks, increasing handles, and making horse racing better for the future, I am all ears. If you resort to childish retorts with regard to speaking of your customers in terms of anal sex, you will find you will not have an audience with the Horseplayers Association of North America.

Thanks,

Dean T

[cwwash]

Dude, you have been outed. If you want friendly advice, get your disingenuous butt off the board.

This board is pretty honest. No one needs your drivel here.

You were made a complete fool yesterday on the other thread, contradicting yourself in the end because you were either too hammered or you couldn't remember what you posted.

In the end you made no sense.

Seriously, do this board a favor and go back to that crappy board you live on, you belong there.

As a new poster on here myself I think Paddock is getting the short end of the stick. He makes some very valid points about different things. I have enough at stake to know . If you wait for different organizations to help you it will be a long wait. Horse racing with other sports competion and Indian casino's springing up all over might be unfixable. I think for the most part I appreciate horse racing while it still exists.

I really think to call someone a troll because they have a difference of opinion show's zero class.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

As a new poster on here myself I think Paddock is getting the short end of the stick. He makes some very valid points about different things. I have enough at stake to know . If you wait for different organizations to help you it will be a long wait. Horse racing with other sports competion and Indian casino's springing up all over might be unfixable. I think for the most part I appreciate horse racing while it still exists.

I really think to call someone a troll because they have a difference of opinion show's zero class.
I think it shows zero class to say I have zero class not knowing what I know. :)

He is a troll. 100% troll. He puts down HANA and when confronted as to why he would be against HANA, he zig zags and then finally ignores sincere requests to state his case.

What do you have at stake?

[The Paddock Room]

I think it shows zero class to say I have zero class not knowing what I know. :)

He is a troll. 100% troll. He puts down HANA and when confronted as to why he would be against HANA, he zig zags and then finally ignores sincere requests to state his case.

What do you have at stake?

Please take a Reading Comprehension 101 Class.

I have stated several times, quite eloquently I must say, my disagreements with HANA.

Please do me a favor. I have put you on my ignore list. Please do the same with me. You obviously have an agenda, and don't want to listen to anyone who disagrees with you and your mission, no matter how misguided it might be.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Please take a Reading Comprehension 101 Class.

I have stated several times, quite eloquently I must say, my disagreements with HANA.

Please do me a favor. I have put you on my ignore list. Please do the same with me. You obviously have an agenda, and don't want to listen to anyone who disagrees with you and your mission, no matter how misguided it might be.
You are too disingenuous to put me on ignore. And no, you haven't stated your objections to HANA. And when you tried yesterday, you contradicted yourself and made yourself look like a complete fool.

[cwwash]

Please take a Reading Comprehension 101 Class.

I have stated several times, quite eloquently I must say, my disagreements with HANA.

Please do me a favor. I have put you on my ignore list. Please do the same with me. You obviously have an agenda, and don't want to listen to anyone who disagrees with you and your mission, no matter how misguided it might be.

I own 14 head currently racing and am a player with a large bank roll. I under stand the business from an owners and players point a view and have enough expereince knowing the business from a track and racing office's point of view. Lowering take out will not attract anyone.

[Igeteven]

I own 14 head currently racing and am a player with a large bank roll. I under stand the business from an owners and players point a view and have enough expereince knowing the business from a track and racing office's point of view. Lowering take out will not attract anyone.

I am starting to see your point, however, I do believe to give cash vouchers to people who show up at the track.

1. They have to place a bet, they can't cash them in and run like the win.
(10 dollars or so)

[tzipi]

I am starting to see your point, however, I do believe to give cash vouchers to people who show up at the track.

1. They have to place a bet, they can't cash them in and run like the win.
(10 dollars or so)

NYRA did that a while back. If you signed up for their newsletter or e-mail thing you got mystery cash vouchers in the mail I think twice a year or so to bet. 95% I think were $2 or $5. And very few were like $100 or a $1000 big winner one.
It was a way to get you out there because you had to check the ticket at the track.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I own 14 head currently racing and am a player with a large bank roll. I under stand the business from an owners and players point a view and have enough expereince knowing the business from a track and racing office's point of view. Lowering take out will not attract anyone.

On the surface, it is fairly realistic to believe that lowering the take wouldn't draw in new fans.

But how many of these threads do we hear about how new blood is drawn? My grandfather took me, dad, uncle Joe, the neighborhood pervert - someone that was an existing fan created new fans by exposing them.

Reducing takeout will help retain existing fans. Rather than substantiate that point, I will assume that most can understand the merit, but we can debate if there is disagreement on the point. If we retain existing fans, by all logic regurgitated in this and other threads, the greater the chance of exposure to others via those existing fans - a la nearly every personal tale divulged relating to our own formitive years.

So in that sense, even if you disagree in every other capacity relating to the benefit of takeout reductions, retaining existing customers is historically the most effective marketing strategy available to procuring new customers.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I own 14 head currently racing and am a player with a large bank roll. I under stand the business from an owners and players point a view and have enough expereince knowing the business from a track and racing office's point of view. Lowering take out will not attract anyone.
Lowering takeout will get customers to last longer. They may not come running because takeout was lowered but they will start to play more, and when they do many will start to bring friends and family to the track or there will be curiosity over what daddy is doing on the internet all weekend.

You saying that lowering takeout won't grow the game would be like saying bigger purses won't attract more owners. Pretty stupid, eh?

I owned horses too btw, and my brother is a trainer.

In other words, I think you are out of touch with reality here.

[Stillriledup]

I own 14 head currently racing and am a player with a large bank roll. I under stand the business from an owners and players point a view and have enough expereince knowing the business from a track and racing office's point of view. Lowering take out will not attract anyone.

It doesn't really matter if fans conciously understand that lower takeout will give them more money, as long as the physical money ends up in the horseplayers pockets to rebet.

[tzipi]

Lowering takeout will get customers to last longer. They may not come running because takeout was lowered but they will start to play more, and when they do many will start to bring friends and family to the track or there will be curiosity over what daddy is doing on the internet all weekend.

You saying that lowering takeout won't grow the game would be like saying bigger purses won't attract more owners. Pretty stupid, eh?

Exactly :ThmbUp: . Mass lowered their takeout on their state lottery games and they are number one in lotteries. When Vegas hit a down period they lowered takeout and they hit a boom. You want more customers,more people investing back their money,etc......lower the darn takeout. The more you give back the more people are happy and they also reinvest some of it.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

It doesn't really matter if fans conciously understand that lower takeout will give them more money, as long as the physical money ends up in the horseplayers pockets to rebet.
The fact that this experienced big bank rolled owner doesn't have a grasp on something so fundamentally obvious tells me his opinion isn't worth a hill of beans.

[cwwash]

Lowering takeout will get customers to last longer. They may not come running because takeout was lowered but they will start to play more, and when they do many will start to bring friends and family to the track or there will be curiosity over what daddy is doing on the internet all weekend.

You saying that lowering takeout won't grow the game would be like saying bigger purses won't attract more owners. Pretty stupid, eh?

I owned horses too btw, and my brother is a trainer.

In other words, I think you are out of touch with reality here.

OK then show me a track that has lowered takeout and business has boomed because of it. Different tracks have tried it over the years. Please offer an example to prove this point.

[Robert Goren]

I own 14 head currently racing and am a player with a large bank roll. I under stand the business from an owners and players point a view and have enough expereince knowing the business from a track and racing office's point of view. Lowering take out will not attract anyone. I will guarantee that raising it won't attract anyone.

[Stillriledup]

The fact that this experienced big bank rolled owner doesn't have a grasp on something so fundamentally obvious tells me his opinion isn't worth a hill of beans.


LOL.

There are very few true experts in this game, just because you made a bunch of money in another field and brought that money into the game of horse racing doesn't automatically make you an expert. This is kind of the same thing with a lot of sports reporters in today's world, all these guys did was graduate with a journalism degree from a fancy school and maybe knew someone who liked their look and or the way they spoke, getting a degree in journalism from Northwestern doesn't make you a sports expert. Now, you COULD become a sports expert, but getting that degree is totally seperate from whether you know anything or not. Same with horse owners. These guys come into the game with a pile of money, buy a few horse and they feel they're instant racing experts. If it worked that way, we would have a lot more experts in the business.

[cwwash]

I will guarantee that raising it won't attract anyone.

So you lower take out and bingo bango everthing is fixed? I think the gain would be so miniscule that it wouldn't matter. Horse racing can't compete and time has passed it by. Every new Casino and internet gambling option bring the meteor like the one that destroyed the dinosaurs one step closer to crashing into horse racing.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

OKthen show me a track that has lowered takeout and business has boomed because of it Different tracks have tried it over the years. Please offer an example to prove this point.
No track has done it. There have been experiments with lower takeouts on some product, like Ellis Park Win 4's. They did double the pools, but the reality is that the extra money won by customers was bet off elsewhere in many instances thanks to simulcast wagering. Many ADWs didn't even take the Ellis Park signal.

Laurel did a 10% takeout a few summers ago. It was too short to see benefits. And many ADWs didn't put them on the menu because of the low takeout.

Low takeouts take time. Like I said, few players gravitate to them, but every play who gets more money back, churns more money, and they last longer thus increasing the likelihood of growth.

The best example of low takeouts is Betfair which has seen its business explode in the the same time thoroughbred handle is dropping off the map in North America.

[Stillriledup]

OK then show me a track that has lowered takeout and business has boomed because of it. Different tracks have tried it over the years. Please offer an example to prove this point.

The problem with all these recent 'lower takeout' experiments is that they've taken place at tracks with very low betting pools to begin with and at the same time, they've taken place in pools that were extremely small to begin with. I remember one of the Texas tracks (sam houston?) lowered their pick 3 takeouts to 10 percent. Personally, i would never even consider relearning an entirely new circuit so i can bet in to an 8k pick 3 pool.

Now, if NYRA lowered the takeout on ALL the races for Belmont, Saratoga and Aqueduct to 10 PCT across the board on every bet, than i would drop everything i have and start learning their circuit tomorrow no questions asked.

These were 'fake' lower takeout experiments just so executives can say "see, it didnt' work"

Have NYRA come out and make an announcement that every betting pool at NYRA will lower all takeouts to 10 percent and we guarantee this decrease for at least 5 years, we guarantee a 5 year experiment and see how many players drop everything and start learning NY.

[tzipi]

So you lower take out and bingo bango everthing is fixed? I think the gain would be so miniscule that it wouldn't matter. Horse racing can't compete and time has passes it by. Every new Casino and internet gambling option bring the meteor like the one that destroyed the dinosaurs one step closer to crashing into horse racing.

cwwash go look at what lowering takeout did for lotteries, especially in Mass. Look at what lowering takout did for Vegas when they hit a rough spot years ago.
I agree casinos are death to racing but lowering takeout would really help.

[cwwash]

The reason betfair has done well is because of the alternative wagering which Europe allows that US does not. More options equal more handle not takeout. I will give you Betfair 101 since I have met with their executives in the San Francisco head quarters..

[Horseplayersbet.com]

LOL.

There are very few true experts in this game, just because you made a bunch of money in another field and brought that money into the game of horse racing doesn't automatically make you an expert. This is kind of the same thing with a lot of sports reporters in today's world, all these guys did was graduate with a journalism degree from a fancy school and maybe knew someone who liked their look and or the way they spoke, getting a degree in journalism from Northwestern doesn't make you a sports expert. Now, you COULD become a sports expert, but getting that degree is totally seperate from whether you know anything or not. Same with horse owners. These guys come into the game with a pile of money, buy a few horse and they feel they're instant racing experts. If it worked that way, we would have a lot more experts in the business.
Read number one on the list: http://www.cracked.com/article_18380_the-6-most-statistically-full-shit-professions_p2.html

[Horseplayersbet.com]

The reason betfair has done well is because of the alternative wagering which Europe allows that US does not. More options equal more handle not takeout. I will give you Betfair 101 since I have met with their executives in the San Francisco head quarters..
I've played Betfair, and no, it is popular because some players actually win at it, and publicize the fact they win. Someone with a small bankroll can learn and then become addicted to gambling there, and under the impression that they have a possibility to win because they last.

Let me ask you this (if you aren't too busy counting your large bankroll), why does slots have a house hold of only 8%? Why not 16% or 20%?

[Robert Goren]

So you lower take out and bingo bango everthing is fixed? I think the gain would be so miniscule that it wouldn't matter. Horse racing can't compete and time has passed it by. Every new Casino and internet gambling option bring the meteor like the one that destroyed the dinosaurs one step closer to crashing into horse racing. On this we agree.

[DeanT]

The reason betfair has done well is because of the alternative wagering which Europe allows that US does not. More options equal more handle not takeout. I will give you Betfair 101 since I have met with their executives in the San Francisco head quarters..

Hi CW,

That is not exactly true. Pricing (i.e. low takeout) is their number one concern and it drives their business, as exemplified by their last annual review, when asked why they dont raise their takeout, to make more money:

But shouldn’t we want customers to lose money as quickly as possible?

Slot machine operators around the world routinely return a higher percentage to punters than they are required to under regulation. Altruism, or commercial nous?

Racing knows that customers who go racing, and a) feel they had no value for money at the racecourse, and b) don’t win a single bet all day, don’t have much fun. They may not come back. In just the same way, we know that the least valuable customers to Betfair are the ones who lose all their money quickly. They go away and never come back. So, we are happy to take less off our customers per bet.

[Stillriledup]

Read number one on the list: http://www.cracked.com/article_18380_the-6-most-statistically-full-shit-professions_p2.html

Thats hilarious, i just picked sports reporters out of thin air. Great to see someone else agrees with me.

[johnhannibalsmith]

The reason betfair has done well is because of the alternative wagering which Europe allows that US does not. More options equal more handle not takeout. I will give you Betfair 101 since I have met with their executives in the San Francisco head quarters..

So then we should expect BetFair to jump the take to 20% or so pretty soon since the move would have no effect on handle and quadruple their revenue?

[cwwash]

I still think we are all missing the part in the middle of how Betfair can do this but I don't have all day. :D

[cwwash]

So then we should expect BetFair to jump the take to 20% or so pretty soon since the move would have no effect on handle and quadruple their revenue?

PAY ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The European wagering laws allow them to be more successful then the US will perhaps ever allow them.

[Igeteven]

I know we disagree , however, we need all of your opinions here, PLEASE, no name calling.

I know this is hard, we must respect each other opinions, or there is no forum

So, BE NICE :) :) :) :) :)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I still think we are all missing the part in the middle of how Betfair can do this but I don't have all day. :D
Now you are deflecting. Yes, we all know that Betfair doesn't have to put on the show, but nobody here is talking about lowering takeout to 2-5% on North American racing.

Answer my question, why do casinos only takeout 8% on slots and not 16% or 20%?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I know we disagree , however, we need all of your opinions here, PLEASE, no name calling.

I know this is hard, we must respect each other opinions, or there is no forum

So, BE NICE :) :) :) :) :)
Your friend is in over his head here. You can tell by his deflecting and the fact that he doesn't even acknowledge the rebuttals. He is simply turning the page.

It is a poor way to debate.

[cwwash]

Now you are deflecting. Yes, we all know that Betfair doesn't have to put on the show, but nobody here is talking about lowering takeout to 2-5% on North American racing.

Answer my question, why do casinos only takeout 8% on slots and not 16% or 20%?

So let me get this straight you are asking me how Vegas can manage to have a slot machine which has a bet cycle through every 10 seconds in a 24 hours a day business 365 days a year and have a lower take out then a race track with a race every 30 minutes 5 days a week and perhaps a 40-80 day meet? Is this your question?

[thaskalos]

In the world of gambling, the games that draw the highest betting volumes have always been the ones that give the impression that they can be beaten. Why is blackjack the most popular game in the casino, and the American version of roulette is virtually ignored? Because it has been documented that, with intelligent play, the take is miniscule. Why is sports betting so big, even though it has always been illegal? Again, intelligent play makes it an excellent betting proposition from a bettor's point of view.

The problem with the "take" in horseracing is not only its size. Its also the fact that it keeps rising. It the books of Ray Taulbot, he reported that the "take" at that time was 10%. By Ainslie's time it had gravitated to 15%. Now it stands at 20+%, dependind on the wager. What started out as a pretty good gambling game, will soon be religated to the status now occupied by the roulette.

[cwwash]

I know we disagree , however, we need all of your opinions here, PLEASE, no name calling.

I know this is hard, we must respect each other opinions, or there is no forum

So, BE NICE :) :) :) :) :)

Lester you really ARE GOOD PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!

[johnhannibalsmith]

PAY ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The European wagering laws allow them to be more successful then the US will perhaps ever allow them.

Okay, you have my attention. You have had it from the beginning.

Now, say something that has substance and is also mildly convincing.

[tzipi]

So let me get this straight you are asking me how Vegas can manage to have a slot machine which has a bet cycle through every 10 seconds in a 24 hours a day business 365 days a year and have a lower take out then a race track with a race every 30 minutes 5 days a week and perhaps a 40-80 day meet? Is this your question?


Well when Vegas lowered their takeout when they hit a lull,they boomed big time. So did state lotteries when they lowered their takeout. Who cares when their running the machines or horses. The point is lowering takeout brings more customers and money into the game. That's been my point to you. Do you disagree the takeout lowering?

[Igeteven]

Now you are deflecting. Yes, we all know that Betfair doesn't have to put on the show, but nobody here is talking about lowering takeout to 2-5% on North American racing.

Answer my question, why do casinos only takeout 8% on slots and not 16% or 20%?

I can tell you this, the Indians casinos are very high on the take out.

[Igeteven]

There is a reason the key demographic of marketing agencies is the 25-35 year old group.

They are playing poker, or betting other things then horse racing, they need players now.

[Jeff P]

posted by cwwash: OK then show me a track that has lowered takeout and business has boomed because of it. Different tracks have tried it over the years. Please offer an example to prove this point.
It's been a while but NYRA did an extended reduced takeout experiment in 2001-2002.

Article from The Blood-Horse:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/11732/nyras-2002-handle-is-104-ahead-of-2001
"Reduced takeout has been credited with attracting more than $200 million in commingled handle to the New York Racing Association's three racetracks so far this year."and:"The takeout reduction has resulted in significant increase in handle both on-track and across the country," said Barry Swartz, NRA's chairman and chief executive officer.



-jp

.

[Igeteven]

It's been a while but NYRA did an extended reduced takeout experiment in 2001-2002.

Article from The Blood-Horse:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/11732/nyras-2002-handle-is-104-ahead-of-2001
and:



-jp

.

Getting the State to reduce the take out, I doubt it, I feel, the tracks need to give a cash incentive to show up.

To reduce taxes, it take a act of war.

[Stillriledup]

It's been a while but NYRA did an extended reduced takeout experiment in 2001-2002.

Article from The Blood-Horse:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/11732/nyras-2002-handle-is-104-ahead-of-2001
and:



-jp

.

this is 200 million on a 1 or 2 percent reduction. Imagine what would happen to the handle if they lowered WPS 5% and exotics 10 PCT.

[Igeteven]

this is 200 million on a 1 or 2 percent reduction. Imagine what would happen to the handle if they lowered WPS 5% and exotics 10 PCT.

I will tell you, anyone who bet the horses would bet at the track.

If the S Cal market did this, they would capture the entire dollar betting on horses and put the rest of the other tracks out of business real fast.

[Stillriledup]

I will tell you, anyone who bet the horses would bet at the track.

If the S Cal market did this, they would capture the entire dollar betting on horses and put the rest of the other tracks out of business real fast.

It just makes you wonder why one major track doesn't just lower takeout drastically and put all the other tracks out of business.

[Igeteven]

It just makes you wonder why one major track doesn't just lower takeout drastically and put all the other tracks out of business.

I will tell you, CIVIL WAR BETWEEN THE STATE

Oh God, here we go again. :D :D :D :D

[Stillriledup]

I will tell you, CIVIL WAR BETWEEN THE STATE

Oh God, here we go again. :D :D :D :D

HANA members should pool all their money and buy a track, have very low takeouts and show the other tracks how its done.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

So let me get this straight you are asking me how Vegas can manage to have a slot machine which has a bet cycle through every 10 seconds in a 24 hours a day business 365 days a year and have a lower take out then a race track with a race every 30 minutes 5 days a week and perhaps a 40-80 day meet? Is this your question?
NO! I'm asking why they decided on 8% over 16% or 20%.

Your answer proves to me you really don't have a clue about takeout or optimum pricing. You are really out of your league here.

[Igeteven]

HANA members should pool all their money and buy a track, have very low takeouts and show the other tracks how its done.

Truthfully if you were a player, instead of an owner. trainer, member of management or lobbyist, you would have joined HANA, we need all the help we can get. HANA only concern is helping the player, nothing more.

All parts of the industry have representation, did the player have it, No, until HANA showed up.


:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[jballscalls]

I find it ironic that the original poster made this following comment recently about whether or not he goes to the track:

"Nothing, I can't see why anyone except a owner or trainer going to the track.

I would rather stay home, watch it on TV and do what I wanted to do in my living room."


Then he has the nerve to come on and bash marketing folks about how they market. well you just said right there it's a losing battle. you just said you can't understand while any fans would go to the track, so it wouldnt matter how it was marketed. Seems like you just want to complain about the problems instead of doing anything to help it. :bang:

[twindouble]

I really think your guys are whipping a dead horse when it comes to takeout reduction.

The industry is struggling to survive, right now there's an estimated 15 million people out of work, plus young people can't find jobs that are new to the market. Disposable income has been shrinking, states are raising taxes and fees all over the country, retired people on fixed incomes saw their retirement programs shrink by one third or more. There's geographic inflation going on that no one talks about. The Federal government is and has been on a spending spree that's unsustainable according to most economists and taxes will rise substantially. State and federal revenues are still declining.

Taking into consideration all the uncertainty including in the racing industry in all venues, there's no way in hell tracks at this point will drop takeout or spend a ton of money promoting the sport or go back to dirt. We don't know what tracks will be left standing or what condition those left will be in, those that do survive slots will be in the mix.

Isn't it obvious to anyone here, the elites of the game right now are sucking out as much money they can so they can come back when all is said and done. Just take the purse structure in Blossom for example, run dead last and collect a hundred grand. Monmouth offering a million a day in purses and cutting racing dates in half, what to you think that condition book is going to look like??

Would you ask your boss for a raise when the company is on the brink of failing?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Would you ask your boss for a raise when the company is on the brink of failing?
Your post shows no understanding of takeout.

The consumer is the bettor, and the product is the bet, the price is the takeout.

When a company is having problems selling their product, they lower prices.

[twindouble]

Your post shows no understanding of takeout.

The consumer is the bettor, and the product is the bet, the price is the takeout.

When a company is having problems selling their product, they lower prices.

With all due respect, my post was about the prevailing economic conditions and every time you say such things that's an insult to my intelligence. I do know what takeout is all about, now is that clear to you?? My opinion was they won't at "this point" lower takeout. Got it? You think otherwise, so be it!

[Robert Goren]

With all due respect, my post was about the prevailing economic conditions and every time you say such things that's an insult to my intelligence. I do know what takeout is all about, now is that clear to you?? My opinion was they won't at "this point" lower takeout. Got it? You think otherwise, so be it! You probably right about that. I don't see any tracks even considering lowering take out as an option right now.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

With all due respect, my post was about the prevailing economic conditions and every time you say such things that's an insult to my intelligence. I do know what takeout is all about, now is that clear to you?? My opinion was they won't at "this point" lower takeout. Got it? You think otherwise, so be it!
If takeout isn't reduced because of current market conditions it never will be reduced. And I'm starting to think that is the case.

Economically, when sales are low, you are supposed to a) cut the force b) cut the price.

When handle was increasing thanks to simulcasting and the internet, the collective takeout rose. We are seeing the effects of that now.

Another thing, if you look at a takeout chart, you'll find that tracks with slots usually have the highest takeout, which also confirms my belief that optimum pricing will not be sought, no matter what.

[twindouble]

You probably right about that. I don't see any tracks even considering lowering take out as an option right now.

Like I said, I can get a little cranky but I can't stand anyone cherry picking my posts and leaving out the whole body just to make a weak point or a put down. I came here to express my "opinions" about a sport I've been involved in for many years and I do care about it as much as anyone here.


Anyway, there's a lot good ideas coming out and that's nothing new to this forum or others but to me timing is everything and we can't get blood out of rock. Racing is going through an unprecedented transition and we don't know what the fall out will be or it's future. We can speculate and give opinions all we want but the truth is players will have little impact on the outcome unless someone here can convince me otherwise.

[Igeteven]

I find it ironic that the original poster made this following comment recently about whether or not he goes to the track:

"Nothing, I can't see why anyone except a owner or trainer going to the track.

I would rather stay home, watch it on TV and do what I wanted to do in my living room."


Then he has the nerve to come on and bash marketing folks about how they market. well you just said right there it's a losing battle. you just said you can't understand while any fans would go to the track, so it wouldnt matter how it was marketed. Seems like you just want to complain about the problems instead of doing anything to help it. :bang:

Jball,

I have made an appointment with a huge group of Seniors down here in
S. Cal

You can give a long talk in front of a huge crowed of people explaining why we ignore them.

Let me know when you want to do this.

[DJofSD]

Not all poker players are winners. Are there any attempts at marketing T'bred racing and wagering to those that might want to quit poker and try handicapping?

[DeanT]

Not all poker players are winners. Are there any attempts at marketing T'bred racing and wagering to those that might want to quit poker and try handicapping?

I have been looking into this a little bit. Ironically, what I find is happening is the other way around : Poker sites are trying to get horseplayers to come over.

They are acting like a rational business in their marketing (from what I can see). They are selling themselves based on what people dislike about racing, which is a good method for any business:

1) Price is lower (takeout) so the game is beatable
2) It's cool
3) It's interactive
4) You get free tools and will not have to pay for data, hand histories and the like.

They kind of kick our butts on all four of those points.

1) Racing is brutally hard to beat (after all, our tagline is "you can beat a race but you can not beat the races")
2) Pari-mutuel racing was invented in the late 1860's and is about the same today
3) Solitary, sit at the track and the OTB
4) We charge for everything in racing - pp's, historical race results, datafiles that porbably cost a penny and so on.

There is a poker marketer on this site, and I think he might be reading, so he can speak more to the market. I find it really interesting stuff.

[twindouble]

I have been looking into this a little bit. Ironically, what I find is happening is the other way around : Poker sites are trying to get horseplayers to come over.

They are acting like a rational business in their marketing (from what I can see). They are selling themselves based on what people dislike about racing, which is a good method for any business:

1) Price is lower (takeout) so the game is beatable
2) It's cool
3) It's interactive (unlike racing which is solitary most times on computer screens)
4) You get free tools and will not have to pay for data, hand histories and the like.

They kind of kick our butts on all four of those points.

There is a poker marketer on this site, and I think he might be reading, so he can speak more to the market. I find it really interesting stuff.


It's been my opinion for a long time that horse racing can compete with, poker, slots, lotteries or any other form of gambling providing they promote it for what it is, not what small percentage of people would like it to be. Racing has a fantastic cultural and historical back ground including the HORSE to capitalize on. Not only that in my opinion it's a hell of lot more fun and exciting that any other form of gambling. Those that want to take handicapping into the digital world and create wall street type wagering system is a mistake, screw the(whales). Racing and handicapping is basically simple to learn and it should stay SIMPLE so players can expand their knowledge over time by trial and error, and be winners. I think racing should take on other forms of gambling head on including sports betting.

Racing should stay separate from exchanges like Betfair and make them pay what signals are really worth. All ADW's should be owned by tracks, they put the show on, why not!

[DeanT]

Twin,

I firmly believe this is could be, and already for many folks is, the best game to play.

Here are some thoughts via an article on marketing racing in 2010.

http://www.r2collective.com/content/2010/01/03/positioning-racing-perhaps-for-the-first-time/

[Igeteven]

It's been my opinion for a long time that horse racing can compete with, poker, slots, lotteries or any other form of gambling providing they promote it for what it is, not what small percentage of people would like it to be. Racing has a fantastic cultural and historical back ground including the HORSE to capitalize on. Not only that in my opinion it's a hell of lot more fun and exciting that any other form of gambling. Those that want to take handicapping into the digital world and create wall street type wagering system is a mistake, screw the(whales). Racing and handicapping is basically simple to learn and it should stay SIMPLE so players can expand their knowledge over time by trial and error, and be winners. I think racing should take on other forms of gambling head on including sports betting.

Racing should stay separate from exchanges like Betfair and make them pay what signals are really worth. All ADW's should be owned by tracks, they put the show on, why not!

I can say this, poker and the horse goes together like peas and carrots, however slot, I don't know any horse players that play the slots

[twindouble]

Twin,

I firmly believe this is could be, and already for many folks is, the best game to play.

Here are some thoughts via an article on marketing racing in 2010.

http://www.r2collective.com/content/2010/01/03/positioning-racing-perhaps-for-the-first-time/

About r2 collective

The r2 collective is a group of racing fans and business professionals with a passion for new technologies, new marketing, and new media. This theme will be the focus of the r2 collective, and we encourage feedback from all participants in the racing and technology community.

Dean; The only places I want any new technology in racing is in the tote systems, elimination of batch wagering, past posting, security, late cancellations, having the ability to instantly cancel wagers on ADW'S or any other electronic devise. Also drug detection, Improved video. That's all for now.

Now I think you'll more than likely disagree with this. Personally, I don't like the idea of handicapping software and the creators of them attempting to change the traditional methods of handicapping and language to sell products that I think fall short at all levels of interest or success when it comes to playing the horses. We don't need to make racing a complex venture or take the personal element out of handicapping. Like I said they are a very small percentage of people connected to the game in one way or another. They are wrong to think their sophisticated digital products will draw the young people into the game and make them winners. KISS! That's a lot easier to sell in my opinion.

I'll get heat over this like always and that was an interesting read.

[Show Me the Wire]

I like the concept of the thinking man's game. It is a factual description. The game is intriguing to mathematicians and people that enjoy analyzing events.

On this board we discuss and argue about physics, geometry, bio-mechanics, and biology. Dedicated casino game players usually do not show the same enthusiasm for the sciences as we do.

When people ask me why I follow horse racing, I always told them it was an intellectual pursuit.

[Igeteven]

I like the concept of the thinking man's game. It is a factual description. The game is intriguing to mathematicians and people that enjoy analyzing events.

On this board we discuss and argue about physics, geometry, bio-mechanics, and biology. Dedicated casino game players usually do not show the same enthusiasm for the sciences as we do.

When people ask me why I follow horse racing, I always told them it was an intellectual pursuit.

all the way except on plastic tracks

[DJofSD]

Why not let the new handicapper decide for himself how he wants to crack the nut?

[twindouble]

I like the concept of the thinking man's game. It is a factual description. The game is intriguing to mathematicians and people that enjoy analyzing events.

On this board we discuss and argue about physics, geometry, bio-mechanics, and biology. Dedicated casino game players usually do not show the same enthusiasm for the sciences as we do.

When people ask me why I follow horse racing, I always told them it was an intellectual pursuit.

That's fine with me, you can discuss anything you want on this forum but for anyone to suggest racing is a scientific venture that can be digitalized and become a sound tool to win in the hands of a novice with a small bankroll, (not a whale) is a stretch for sure or that technology is the future of racing and handicapping. What I'm saying is, the more complex racing gets the less interest their will be in the game in the long run.

[DeanT]

Dean; The only places I want any new technology in racing is in the tote systems, elimination of batch wagering, past posting, security, late cancellations, having the ability to instantly cancel wagers on ADW'S or any other electronic devise. Also drug detection, Improved video. That's all for now.

Now I think you'll more than likely disagree with this. Personally, I don't like the idea of handicapping software and the creators of them attempting to change the traditional methods of handicapping and language to sell products that I think fall short at all levels of interest or success when it comes to playing the horses. We don't need to make racing a complex venture or take the personal element out of handicapping. Like I said they are a very small percentage of people connected to the game in one way or another. They are wrong to think their sophisticated digital products will draw the young people into the game and make them winners. KISS! That's a lot easier to sell in my opinion.

I'll get heat over this like always and that was an interesting read.

No heat, but just a disagreement, with an example. There is software in the UK called Betangel. This software has brought many people into the game of racing, including this young man (http://adamheathcote.blogspot.com/), whom I have referenced before. He never played a race, or watched a race, but he learned to use and modify this software and he plays racing for a living; and (gasp) even goes to the track and brings his young friends.

I think we have to keep an open mind about everything, to grow racing.

[twindouble]

No heat, but just a disagreement, with an example. There is software in the UK called Betangel. This software has brought many people into the game of racing, including this young man (http://adamheathcote.blogspot.com/), whom I have referenced before. He never played a race, or watched a race, but he learned to use and modify this software and he plays racing for a living; and (gasp) even goes to the track and brings his young friends.

I think we have to keep an open mind about everything, to grow racing.

I'm always skeptical of claims like that, as matter of fact I've been around players that had incredible runs, quit the jobs and ended going broke plus. I'm not saying it can't be done, I was tempted along the way but I took a smart pill because I had a family. Greed will do in any player professional or not.

Not being a professional player doesn't mean I don't play in a professional way.

[Igeteven]

Twin,

I firmly believe this is could be, and already for many folks is, the best game to play.

Here are some thoughts via an article on marketing racing in 2010.

http://www.r2collective.com/content/2010/01/03/positioning-racing-perhaps-for-the-first-time/

your right, it's the best game in town on a dirt track, however on a plastic track it is for the birds

[Relwob Owner]

Relwob Owner:

Great question. Did you get a satisfactory explanation to your inquiry?


Not really....in general, you dont get answers on here unless you are saying that synthetics are the only problem in racing or that takeout is the only problem....if you dont pick one of those two, you usually get no response or one so condescending that it doesnt merit a response....

[thaskalos]

It's been my opinion for a long time that horse racing can compete with, poker, slots, lotteries or any other form of gambling providing they promote it for what it is, not what small percentage of people would like it to be. Racing has a fantastic cultural and historical back ground including the HORSE to capitalize on. Not only that in my opinion it's a hell of lot more fun and exciting that any other form of gambling. Those that want to take handicapping into the digital world and create wall street type wagering system is a mistake, screw the(whales). Racing and handicapping is basically simple to learn and it should stay SIMPLE so players can expand their knowledge over time by trial and error, and be winners. I think racing should take on other forms of gambling head on including sports betting.

Racing should stay separate from exchanges like Betfair and make them pay what signals are really worth. All ADW's should be owned by tracks, they put the show on, why not! Hi twindouble,

Like you, and all the rest of the people on this forum, I too have a love for this game. I just don't think that the way to market it is to emphasize its "fantastic cultural and historical backround." You say that handicapping is basically simple to learn? On what do you base that? It can't be on the number of winning players? You also say that racing "should take on other forms of gambling head on including sports betting." Racing does take the other gambling games head on. It happens every day in the Las Vegas casinos. And do you know what the results are? Its a blood bath. Horse racing cannot hold its own against the other games, especially sports betting. One might argue that the only reason horse racing got as big as it did in the first place was that, for over 100 years, it held a monopoly in the legalized gambling industry in this country.

As more forms of gambling become legalized - and who is to say they won't given the economic state our country is in - the more difficult it will be for horse racing to survive.

[tzipi]

Racing does take the other gambling games head on. It happens every day in the Las Vegas casinos. And do you know what the results are? Its a blood bath. Horse racing cannot hold its own against the other games, especially sports betting. One might argue that the only reason horse racing got as big as it did in the first place was that, for over 100 years, it held a monopoly in the legalized gambling industry in this country.

I've always said that. Racing was the big legal gambling sport for decades and now it's not and people like the other games better and racing just sat there and did nothing and now here we are.
Bottom line is everybody knows about racing and most people have tried it.(Derby,Preakness,etc). It just doesn't fly today with the crowds. I enjoy it very much but it seems like it's in a big hole.

[twindouble]

Hi twindouble,

Like you, and all the rest of the people on this forum, I too have a love for this game. I just don't think that the way to market it is to emphasize its "fantastic cultural and historical backround." You say that handicapping is basically simple to learn? On what do you base that? It can't be on the number of winning players? You also say that racing "should take on other forms of gambling head on including sports betting." Racing does take the other gambling games head on. It happens every day in the Las Vegas casinos. And do you know what the results are? Its a blood bath. Horse racing cannot hold its own against the other games, especially sports betting. One might argue that the only reason horse racing got as big as it did in the first place was that, for over 100 years, it held a monopoly in the legalized gambling industry in this country.

As more forms of gambling become legalized - and who is to say they won't given the economic state our country is in - the more difficult it will be for horse racing to survive.

Your idea of taking other forms of gambling head on is not what I was proposing. Racing over the years did a lousy job of promoting the sport. By head on I'm saying in the media. For example, the lotteries are a fools bet, that shouldn't be hard to get across including slots, mindless gambling that don't compare to what racing has to offer, that includes some the things I mentioned.

As many have said here, winners in racing hardly ever hit the media, just the negative things get plastered all over. There's a hell of more winners in racing than there is on a daily or weekly bases in any other form of gambling. Heck just take a picture of the players at the cashing windows after every race or the signers widow, a short interview would worth the time. All the players that lose for the day, their money less takeout went back to players, reduce takeout more churning occurs for the tracks. Everyone here would agree to that. Churning money is what keep the tracks operating for over hundred years.

I know many sports players they that couldn't make money and dropped out because odds lines suck to no end. Horse players are dedicated in many different ways once they learn the game and we get much better odds, that we can chouse.

I say horse racing and handicapping is easy to learn, I've schooled many players over my 49 plus years of playing. In a short time they learn to read the form. There's nothing complicated about it, with some experience and a learning curve to refine their handicapping they are on their own to enjoy the sport.

Don't believe the old saying that only 1 or 2 % of players win playing the horses, winners rotate to the top, then drop down, it's a constant cycle week after week year after year.

Had to take a break to eat and do some handicapping, wrote this in between races.

[tzipi]

Twindouble I hear your passion but I have the feeling you think no one knows about horse racing and they just have to be exposed to see how great it is and that it is better than any other sport or game anyone could ever play.
Trust me the public knows about horse racing. You'd have to live under a rock not to. That's not the problem.

But hey what would a young guy know. We are not the target.

[twindouble]

Twindouble I hear your passion but I have the feeling you think no one knows about horse racing and they just have to be exposed to see how great it is and that it is better than any other sport or game anyone could ever play.
Trust me the public knows about horse racing. You'd have to live under a rock not to. That's not the problem.

I'm talking about drawing in new players, not those that are picking out their casket. Like I said, racing can compete.

[tzipi]

I'm talking about drawing in new players, not those that are picking out their casket. Like I said, racing can compete.

How can it compete. Younger people want the sports gambling the poker gambling,casinos,etc. Lets see in sports we can watch star players for years. In horse racing 99% of the stars are gone after early November of their 3yo season. In sports you have tons of magazines,papers,sports channels,radio channels,etc. Racing doesn't even come close. Plus the tracks and OTb's are suppose to draw them in for a day? Some tracks are nice, I should say though.

Everyone knows about racing and the odds and whatever else. It's not a secret that needs to get out to boom. It's more complicated than that IMO.

[thaskalos]

Your idea of taking other forms of gambling head on is not what I was proposing. Racing over the years did a lousy job of promoting the sport. By head on I'm saying in the media. For example, the lotteries are a fools bet, that shouldn't be hard to get across including slots, mindless gambling that don't compare to what racing has to offer, that includes some the things I mentioned.

As many have said here, winners in racing hardly ever hit the media, just the negative things get plastered all over. There's a hell of more winners in racing than there is on a daily or weekly bases in any other form of gambling. Heck just take a picture of the players at the cashing windows after every race or the signers widow, a short interview would worth the time. All the players that lose for the day, their money less takeout went back to players, reduce takeout more churning occurs for the tracks. Everyone here would agree to that. Churning money is what keep the tracks operating for over hundred years.

I know many sports players they that couldn't make money and dropped out because odds lines suck to no end. Horse players are dedicated in many different ways once they learn the game and we get much better odds, that we can chouse.

I say horse racing and handicapping is easy to learn, I've schooled many players over my 49 plus years of playing. In a short time they learn to read the form. There's nothing complicated about it, with some experience and a learning curve to refine their handicapping they are on their own to enjoy the sport.

Don't believe the old saying that only 1 or 2 % of players win playing the horses, winners rotate to the top, then drop down, it's a constant cycle week after week year after year.

Had to take a break to eat and do some handicapping, wrote this in between races. Like Tzipi said, this is not some new game that needs to be introduced to people for the first time. It has been going on for over a century. We, the bettors, have supported it as much as we can. It is in this sad state today because the powers that control it have made too many mistakes to even begin to mention. In my state, racing would not even exist if it didn't receive a handout from the riverboat casinos. Is this right? One competitor having to help the other one survive? In what other business do you see the state intervene and make competing businesses help one another moneteraly?

If racing is to survive it needs a unified governing body which can begin to address the issues it is faced with, and then begin to solve them. Unless they do this, racing's future is doomed.

[twindouble]

How can it compete. Younger people want the sports gambling the poker gambling,casinos,etc. Lets see in sports we can watch start players for years. In horse racing 99% of the stars are gone after early November of their 3yo season. In sports you have tons of magazines,papers,sports channels,radio channels,etc. Racing doesn't even come close. Plus the tracks and OTb's are suppose to draw them in for a day? Some tracks are nice, I should say though.

Everyone knows about racing and the odds and whatever else. It's not a secret that needs to get out to boom. It's more complicated than that IMO.

Are you kidding me! I live in the Berkshires, many towns, Pittsfield 46,000 none and I mean NONE of young around here know anything about horse racing. Not to mention the all the bordering cities, including just over the line in NY. They know of it, but that's as far as it goes.

[tzipi]

Are you kidding me! I live in the Berkshires, many towns, Pittsfield 46,000 none and I mean NONE of young around here know anything about horse racing. Not to mention the all the bordering cities, including just over the line in NY. They know of it, but that's as far as it goes.

Funny how young people dominate the infield at Derby and Preakness but you say they dont know about racing. NON racing people all over play the Derby,Preakness,etc. Most everyone has played races in their life. Maybe not in your county,town,etc. I'm not sure about those 46,000 who don't know. But goto belmont in the summer and look around.

Well I live in NY and everyone basically knows about racing. Here's a good example. During the summer Belmont is packed with younger people drinking beers enjoying the backyard and some betting for fun. During the winter at Aqueduct they are nowhere to be found and they don't goto OTB. They just like the fun of the backyard,drinking, and maybe a little betting and sun. Young people are playing other games. They know about it but they don't want horse racing. Hey, I wish they did. Why is that wrong to say the harsh truth? Fine,don't believe me. What what would I know.

[twindouble]

Funny how young people dominate the infield at Derby and Preakness but you say they dont know about racing. NON racing people all over play the Derby,Preakness,etc. Most everyone has played races in their life. Maybe not in your county,town,etc. I'm not sure about those 46,000 who don't know. But goto belmont in the summer and look around.

Well I live in NY and everyone basically knows about racing. Here's a good example. During the summer Belmont is packed with younger people drinking beers enjoying the backyard and some betting for fun. During the winter at Aqueduct they are nowhere to be found and they don't goto OTB. They just like the fun of the backyard,drinking, and maybe a little betting and sun. Young people are playing other games. They know about it but they don't want horse racing. Hey, I wish they did. Why is that wrong to say the harsh truth? Fine,don't believe me. What what would I know.

Ok, racing is doing just fine, they can't compete with other forms of gambling, they don't need them to convert and there's plenty of young kids in the game and on the horizon that will replace all the old timers like me. I didn't know things were so great in the racing world. Thanks for clueing me in, now I can relax and enjoy my racing.

[tzipi]

Ok, racing is doing just fine, they can't compete with other forms of gambling, they don't need them to convert and there's plenty of young kids in the game and on the horizon that will replace all the old timers like me. I didn't know things were so great in the racing world. Thanks for clueing me in, now I can relax and enjoy my racing.

Are you reading what I am writing?? I never said it's fine and that they got young people sucked in(betting) and they'll be taking over. I clearly said the opposite in my posts.
You were saying you have to get younger people to know about game and expose the game of horse racing to the whole public and then they'll know how it's the best gambling game. They already know about racing and most have played races and TC races. They just don't want to play it as a game and prefer other games and sports.
Geez I WISH they did but the truth is they don't.

[twindouble]

Everyone knows about racing and the odds and whatever else. It's not a secret that needs to get out to boom. It's more complicated than that IMO.

Who are you refering to when you say "everyone"? I'm skimming your posts because I'm handicapping and wagering. So if I misunderstood your posts that's the reason and I shouldn't have responded.

Just to be clear, I'm saying racing can compete with the right promotional program and I think if done right young people can be exposed to the game and it's a much better experience than lotteries, slots, poker or computer games, it opens up their world in many positive ways that a computer will never do and parents can play a roll in that as well. I'm also saying that racing has a great historical and cultural background that's undeniable including the horse and promoters should capitalize on that very fact. That's it in summery

[twindouble]

Just

[Greyfox]

.

Just to be clear, I'm saying racing can compete with the right promotional program

Does it even have a promotional program now, far less a right one?
Get a logo that people can connect with for a start.
It was running "Go Baby Go."
In all of my years at the track, I never heard one fan shout "Go Baby Go."
That logo IMO was dumb.

[Relwob Owner]

Does it even have a promotional program now, far less a right one?
Get a logo that people can connect with for a start.
It was running "Go Baby Go."
In all of my years at the track, I never heard one fan shout "Go Baby Go."
That logo IMO was dumb.


I really think the promoters of this sport thought that those three wrods would somehow work......all it did was provide some good opportunities for my buddies to make fun of me for liking horse racing....

[tzipi]

Everyone knows about racing and the odds and whatever else. It's not a secret that needs to get out to boom. It's more complicated than that IMO.

Who are you refering to when you say "everyone"? I'm skimming your posts because I'm handicapping and wagering. So if I misunderstood your posts that's the reason and I shouldn't have responded.

Just to be clear, I'm saying racing can compete with the right promotional program and I think if done right young people can be exposed to the game and it's a much better experience than lotteries, slots, poker or computer games, it opens up their world in many positive ways that a computer will never do and parents can play a roll in that as well. I'm also saying that racing has a great historical and cultural background that's undeniable including the horse and promoters should capitalize on that very fact. That's it in summery

Wait is racing a great sport, HELL yeah! I love it. It's got great history too! But I am saying young people have been exposed to the game and same with older people. Alot don't want to play the game. Alot will tell you their great experiences with their games(poker,casino,sports,etc). Games they love and win at. Horse racing is not that easy. If it was we all wouldn't stll trying to be figuring it out and coming up with new hadicapping ideas every year :D . Just check the handicapping section.
Again great game but racing is an exposed game and it just does not appeal. I wish racing was different and that it did appeal.

[tzipi]

I really think the promoters of this sport thought that those three wrods would somehow work......all it did was provide some good opportunities for my buddies to make fun of me for liking horse racing....

:D I hear you. I got a ribbing too from friends.

[twindouble]

Does it even have a promotional program now, far less a right one?
Get a logo that people can connect with for a start.
It was running "Go Baby Go."
In all of my years at the track, I never heard one fan shout "Go Baby Go."
That logo IMO was dumb.

Like I've said here many times and on other forums over the years, racing has failed miserably over the years promoting the sport. We all can agree on that I'm sure and you would think they would have caught on by now. Yes go baby go sucked to no end.

[Relwob Owner]

:D I hear you. I got a ribbing too from friends.


Good stuff....my favorite was "No, baby, no"....tough to be a horse racing lover.....

[tzipi]

Good stuff....my favorite was "No, baby, no"....tough to be a horse racing lover.....

Yeah and everytime Lori Petty popped up in a commercial or a movie I would get hounded by my friends :D

[twindouble]

Wait is racing a great sport, HELL yeah! I love it. It's got great history too! But I am saying young people have been exposed to the game and same with older people. Alot don't want to play the game. Alot will tell you their great experiences with their games(poker,casino,sports,etc). Games they love and win at. Horse racing is not that easy. If it was we all wouldn't stll trying to be figuring it out and coming up with new hadicapping ideas every year :D . Just check the handicapping section.
Again great game but racing is an exposed game and it just does not appeal. I wish racing was different and that it did appeal.

.
tzipi, maybe you should expand your experience outside of this forum. Go to a casino and see how fast those "sucking" machines will suck up a grand before you can finish your drink. I haven't met any average sports player that made money. Tell me you think the lottery is a good bet. How many poker players make it every year to the big table or make money consistently on the way up compared to the huge number of players that are brain washed to think they can succeed. They believe it because they see in on TV all the time. No one can count cards at the casinos anymore, the get booted out quick and now they have what, 10 decks. I would like to meet the average Joe that makes money playing black jack every year or in one year

[Relwob Owner]

Yeah and everytime Lori Petty popped up in a commercial or a movie I would get hounded by my friends :D



We have the same friends....:)

[Indulto]

Are you reading what I am writing?? I never said it's fine and that they got young people sucked in(betting) and they'll be taking over. I clearly said the opposite in my posts.
You were saying you have to get younger people to know about game and expose the game of horse racing to the whole public and then they'll know how it's the best gambling game. They already know about racing and most have played races and TC races. They just don't want to play it as a game and prefer other games and sports.
Geez I WISH they did but the truth is they don't.tz,
If I've interpreted what TD is saying correctly, I believe he is referring to young people being adequately exposed to the actual handicapping process and trying it out themselves. Would you not agree that once a person has learned to read the "Form" and predict a good-priced winner on his/her own, he/she becomes hooked on the game more often than not?

For me handicapping can be one of the most enjoyable of experiences; even when I can't place a bet. I was lucky because the person who exposed me to thoroughbred racing was a fellow college student who knew how to handicap. When I susequently attended with a large group of co-workers of a girl I was dating, it was clear to me that most there had no idea the game could be beaten or how, even though they obviously liked to occasionally spend a day at the track.

I had previously been exposed to harness racing (though not championship calibre) and it never did a thing for me. Later exposures to dogs and jai alai were equally devoid of thrills. I had, however, enjoyed gambling on poker, ping pong, and pool prior to cashing a pari-mutuel ticket, but seldom since.

TD,
Hasn't it always been true that people who play the races week after week are really far and few between? I think that if more people could avail themselves of a truly competent mentor like yourself, the game would grow noticably.

[tzipi]

.
tzipi, maybe you should expand your experience outside of this forum. Go to a casino and see how fast those "sucking" machines will suck up a grand before you can finish your drink. I haven't met any average sports player that made money. Tell me you think the lottery is a good bet. How many poker players make it every year to the big table or make money consistently on the way up compared to the huge number of players that are brain washed to think they can succeed. They believe it because they see in on TV all the time. No one can count cards at the casinos anymore, the get booted out quick and now they have what, 10 decks. I would like to meet the average Joe that makes money playing black jack every year or in one year

Uhh don't tell me to go outside this forum. I travel alot and do. Do you?? You think poker is about one tournament a year! They have tournnaments all the time in casino and pick up games everyday. There's a million pick up games at homes too. In those casino tournaments you DON'T have to hit the final table to make a good profit. Gotta learn poker first before you trash it. Yeah I see how much those slots are sucking up peoples "grand" every second as they continue to sit there and play that over horses. Hmm funny. They DO NOT suck up a grand every minute.
Ok Twin every game is a losing game and a pathetic game except for horse racing a game you say no one knows about and that everyone wins at. Whatever. Young people are dumb and just neglect racing to throw their money away on other losing boring games.

Are we in the same age group? Just wondering. I'm 30.

[tzipi]

tz,
If I've interpreted what TD is saying correctly, I believe he is referring to young people being adequately exposed to the actual handicapping process and trying it out themselves. Would you not agree that once a person has learned to read the "Form" and predict a good-priced winner on his/her own, he/she becomes hooked on the game more often than not?

I'm not against racing at all. I LOVE it! Just read any of my posts or thoughts on PA. I'm just saying exposure is not the problem. So your saying none of these young people who goto the tracks ever looked at the Form or Post parade and hit a winner? I'm sure 95% of them have hit winners over their time there. I won good at craps one time. I wasn't hooked. Not my game.

Ok so if you went to a Jai Alai match and won your bet you'd be hooked!! It's just not appealing to younger people. Other games are. How could I be making this up. Look at OTB's. Always dominated by older groups. But I've seen TC races and summer Belmont weekends jammed with youth having fun and drinks. But they don't play the game everyday. If you think the problem is no young people know the game exists or have picked a winner yet, then fine. I think thats so WAY off.

[Indulto]

I'm not against racing at all. Just read any of my posts or thoughts on PA. I'm just saying exposure is not the problem. So your saying none of these young people who goto the tracks ever looked at the Form or Post parade and hit a winner. I'm sure 95% of them have hit winners over their time there. I won good at craps one time. I wasn't hooked. Not my game.

Ok so if you went to a Jai Alai match and won your bet you'd be hooked!! It's just not appealing to younger people. Other games are. How could I be making this up. Look at the tracks,OTB's,etc. Always dominated by older groups. But I've seen TC races and summer Belmonts jammed with youth. If you think the problem is no young people know the game exists or have picked a winner yet, then fine. I think thats so WAY off.Steady there, Big Fella'. Where did I say you were against racing? Or even that I thought your opinion was wrong? I was just trying to find common ground for the two of you.

I guess I can withdraw my application for a job at the Department of State now.;)