When Horses Run Too Fast

[Willy Wonka]

A couple weeks ago a Trainer and his stable had a very good weekend winning Kentucky Derby Preps across the Country:

The Fountain of Youth at Gulfstream Park,
The Risen Star at The Fair Grounds, and
The El Camino Real at Golden Gate Fields.

The next day, this same Trainer began serving a 10 day suspension pertaining to a drug "positive" for banned medications in regard to another race.

It gets one to thinking about other horses put in the care of the Trainer. In recent years a couple come to mind, Lawyer Ron and Quality Road. Two exceptional horses. Exceptional in the care of their previous trainers also, but when the Trainer in question got them they soared to new performance levels. The former for a couple races, the latter as yet to be determined. In regard to Quality Road, my suspicion is that he won't get many more races in. His last race was exceedingly fast. He had talent before he met the Trainer in question, but his last effort in the Donn Handicap was at an unprecedented performance level and it makes one wonder. It also makes one reminisce back to 2002.

On July 4th of 2002, a relatively inconsistent Left Bank set a track record at Belmont Park in the 7 furlong Tom Fool.
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=8&BorP=P&TID=BEL&CTRY=USA&DT=07/04/2002&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

One month later, on August 3rd, he set another track record in the 9 furlong Whitney at Saratoga.
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=9&BorP=P&TID=SAR&CTRY=USA&DT=08/03/2002&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

A week after that, (On August 10th), The 5-year-old horse was sent to the Tufts New England Veterinary Medical Center Hospital in suburban Boston when he did not respond to treatment for colic-like symptoms. Surgery was performed.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/10918/saratoga-notebook-left-bank-improving-travers-for-repent-tracie-smith-is-one-woman-show

On the evening of August 10th, 2002, the same day that Left Bank developed "colic", an undefeated three year old filly by the name of "Freedom's Daughter" suddenly sickened in the same Trainer's stable. Seventeen days earlier she had won the 6 furlong Schuylerville Stakes at Saratoga.
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=9&BorP=P&TID=SAR&CTRY=USA&DT=07/24/2002&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

But on Monday, August 12th, Freedom's Daughter was dead. Three days after the filly's death, the Trainer was telling Mike Kane of "The Bloodhorse" that Freedom's Daughter had died of "Colitis X".
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/10968/saratoga-notebook-left-banks-recovery-continues-buddha-nears-return-farda-amiga-seeks-alabama-shopping-for-loves-fan-club

One week after the two discussed stable stars sickened, a 3 year old colt named "Warners" became ill. It was August 17th. (I wasn't able to determine when he ran last.) On August 20th Warners died. The Trainer acknowledged Warners had an underlying condition but said the colt died from "laminitis". In his words, "Thats what happened to him...Basically, he was in a real advanced stage of the laminitis and it was beyond repair or beyond stopping."

The Trainer said he was frustrated because even with tests on Warners and an autopsy on Freedom's Daughter, veterinarians had not been able to determine what is the cause of the problem." That's interesting isn't it? The Trainer had previously volunteered that Colitis X felled Freedom's Daughter.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/11079/bsaratoga-notebookb-warners-death-latest-tragedy-to-hit-pletcher-barn-repent-ready-lukas-perplexed

In his words, quote: "Now, any time you get one that even acts a little sick, you wonder whether it's a bug,or the same thing, if those two were related or contagious," he said.

"Everybody tells you no, but the bottom line is I don't think they really know. No one knows exactly what happened, how it happened, why it happened." unquote
(Hmmm, anyone think the Trainer has an inkling as to what happened?)

Horses colic. There's no doubt its a condition to which they are susceptible. However, its very hard to believe it's a illness common to stakes horses in peak condition from the same barn at the same time. It is interesting that Left Bank's track record was surpassed by Lawyer Ron 5 years later. Both horses were trained by the same trainer and both died prematurely of gastro-intestinal maladies. They say Lawyer Ron died from colic.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/51625/stallion-lawyer-ron-euthanized

They're fast, poweful and noble animals, but they are suspectible to certain influences. A horse may colic but the question really is what caused the colic? They are also susceptible to greed.

The Trainer said that salmonella was ruled out a few days after Warners' death.

"Further tests show that it is not clostridium," He said. "That's the way I was thinking it was.

"I think we're back at square one, where they're running more tests. Unfortunately we're back in that same situation where they don't know.

"It's very alarming. To not know is kind of the worst thing. Hopefully they're continue to do some tests and get to the bottom of it."
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/11178/bsaratoga-notebookb-repent-shows-hes-ready-for-gold-cup--still-no-answer-in-warners--case-veitch-returns-stakes-runners-work

Well, maybe not to the very bottom of it.

Willy

[lamboguy]

you have some good points there, well thought of and well done.

when a horse blows a field away and wins by more than 5 lengths, its not a horse race its a massacre. when that horse has to meet up with horses that are already battle tested they wilt.

i know this from watching the wood memorial funnycide vs. empire maker. both horses got better after the race, and they both deserved the wins they got after that race.

[Relwob Owner]

A couple weeks ago a Trainer and his stable had a very good weekend winning Kentucky Derby Preps across the Country:

The Fountain of Youth at Gulfstream Park,
The Risen Star at The Fair Grounds, and
The El Camino Real at Golden Gate Fields.

The next day, this same Trainer began serving a 10 day suspension pertaining to a drug "positive" for banned medications in regard to another race.

It gets one to thinking about other horses put in the care of the Trainer. In recent years a couple come to mind, Lawyer Ron and Quality Road. Two exceptional horses. Exceptional in the care of their previous trainers also, but when the Trainer in question got them they soared to new performance levels. The former for a couple races, the latter as yet to be determined. In regard to Quality Road, my suspicion is that he won't get many more races in. His last race was exceedingly fast. He had talent before he met the Trainer in question, but his last effort in the Donn Handicap was at an unprecedented performance level and it makes one wonder. It also makes one reminisce back to 2002.

On July 4th of 2002, a relatively inconsistent Left Bank set a track record at Belmont Park in the 7 furlong Tom Fool.
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=8&BorP=P&TID=BEL&CTRY=USA&DT=07/04/2002&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

One month later, on August 3rd, he set another track record in the 9 furlong Whitney at Saratoga.
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=9&BorP=P&TID=SAR&CTRY=USA&DT=08/03/2002&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

A week after that, (On August 10th), The 5-year-old horse was sent to the Tufts New England Veterinary Medical Center Hospital in suburban Boston when he did not respond to treatment for colic-like symptoms. Surgery was performed.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/10918/saratoga-notebook-left-bank-improving-travers-for-repent-tracie-smith-is-one-woman-show

On the evening of August 10th, 2002, the same day that Left Bank developed "colic", an undefeated three year old filly by the name of "Freedom's Daughter" suddenly sickened in the same Trainer's stable. Seventeen days earlier she had won the 6 furlong Schuylerville Stakes at Saratoga.
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=9&BorP=P&TID=SAR&CTRY=USA&DT=07/24/2002&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

But on Monday, August 12th, Freedom's Daughter was dead. Three days after the filly's death, the Trainer was telling Mike Kane of "The Bloodhorse" that Freedom's Daughter had died of "Colitis X".
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/10968/saratoga-notebook-left-banks-recovery-continues-buddha-nears-return-farda-amiga-seeks-alabama-shopping-for-loves-fan-club

One week after the two discussed stable stars sickened, a 3 year old colt named "Warners" became ill. It was August 17th. (I wasn't able to determine when he ran last.) On August 20th Warners died. The Trainer acknowledged Warners had an underlying condition but said the colt died from "laminitis". In his words, "Thats what happened to him...Basically, he was in a real advanced stage of the laminitis and it was beyond repair or beyond stopping."

The Trainer said he was frustrated because even with tests on Warners and an autopsy on Freedom's Daughter, veterinarians had not been able to determine what is the cause of the problem." That's interesting isn't it? The Trainer had previously volunteered that Colitis X felled Freedom's Daughter.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/11079/bsaratoga-notebookb-warners-death-latest-tragedy-to-hit-pletcher-barn-repent-ready-lukas-perplexed

In his words, quote: "Now, any time you get one that even acts a little sick, you wonder whether it's a bug,or the same thing, if those two were related or contagious," he said.

"Everybody tells you no, but the bottom line is I don't think they really know. No one knows exactly what happened, how it happened, why it happened." unquote
(Hmmm, anyone think the Trainer has an inkling as to what happened?)

Horses colic. There's no doubt its a condition to which they are susceptible. However, its very hard to believe it's a illness common to stakes horses in peak condition from the same barn at the same time. It is interesting that Left Bank's track record was surpassed by Lawyer Ron 5 years later. Both horses were trained by the same trainer and both died prematurely of gastro-intestinal maladies. They say Lawyer Ron died from colic.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/51625/stallion-lawyer-ron-euthanized

They're fast, poweful and noble animals, but they are suspectible to certain influences. A horse may colic but the question really is what caused them to colic? They are also susceptible to greed.

The Trainer said that salmonella was ruled out a few days after Warners' death.

"Further tests show that it is not clostridium," He said. "That's the way I was thinking it was.

"I think we're back at square one, where they're running more tests. Unfortunately we're back in that same situation where they don't know.

"It's very alarming. To not know is kind of the worst thing. Hopefully they're continue to do some tests and get to the bottom of it."
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/11178/bsaratoga-notebookb-repent-shows-hes-ready-for-gold-cup--still-no-answer-in-warners--case-veitch-returns-stakes-runners-work

Well, maybe not to the very bottom of it.

Willy



All interesting info....the most disturbing part of all of that info to me is the part about the suspension. I believe it was with Wait a While in the Breeders Cup, no? This situation is a huge indictment about the process of rules enforcement in our sport.

Pletcher has a horse blow a test in what is considered to be our Super Bowl of racing.....he gets 10 days for it over a year later.....there is so little in terms of a deterrent not to break the rules

[Ejmenz]

What types of drugs will increase performance and increase chances of colic?

Does anyone know what Wait a While tested positive for?

Great OP.

[Show Me the Wire]

What types of drugs will increase performance and increase chances of colic?

Does anyone know what Wait a While tested positive for?

Great OP.

One of several reasons that cause colic is the blood flow in the intestine becomes obstructed.

it may be possible that thick sludge-like blood would obstruct the flow of blood.

There are some common drugs that usage will result in sludge-like blood.

[Robert Fischer]

One of several reasons that cause colic is the blood flow in the intestine becomes obstructed.

it may be possible that thick sludge-like blood would obstruct the flow of blood.

There are some common drugs that usage will result in sludge-like blood.

procrit/epogen = "sludge-blood"

steroids growth hormone = intestinal distension "GH Gut"

[46zilzal]

What types of drugs will increase performance and increase chances of colic?

.
Anything that is a vasoconstrictor, as the steroids in general are, or any sympathomimetics (stimulants) and the opiates are well known causes of GI blockage

[Ejmenz]

TY folks, I appreciate the knowledge.

[46zilzal]

Equine pathophysiology is different than any other animal I ever studied as their gut and peripheral circulatory reactions to stresses are unique.

This is a straight forward inclusive review of colic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_colic

[Robert Fischer]

and the opiates are well known causes of GI blockage

good point

[Robert Fischer]

so imagine "d)all of the above"
in a regimen

asking for trouble

[Cratos]

A couple weeks ago a Trainer and his stable had a very good weekend winning Kentucky Derby Preps across the Country:

The Fountain of Youth at Gulfstream Park,
The Risen Star at The Fair Grounds, and
The El Camino Real at Golden Gate Fields.

The next day, this same Trainer began serving a 10 day suspension pertaining to a drug "positive" for banned medications in regard to another race.

It gets one to thinking about other horses put in the care of the Trainer. In recent years a couple come to mind, Lawyer Ron and Quality Road. Two exceptional horses. Exceptional in the care of their previous trainers also, but when the Trainer in question got them they soared to new performance levels. The former for a couple races, the latter as yet to be determined. In regard to Quality Road, my suspicion is that he won't get many more races in. His last race was exceedingly fast. He had talent before he met the Trainer in question, but his last effort in the Donn Handicap was at an unprecedented performance level and it makes one wonder. It also makes one reminisce back to 2002.

On July 4th of 2002, a relatively inconsistent Left Bank set a track record at Belmont Park in the 7 furlong Tom Fool.
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=8&BorP=P&TID=BEL&CTRY=USA&DT=07/04/2002&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

One month later, on August 3rd, he set another track record in the 9 furlong Whitney at Saratoga.
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=9&BorP=P&TID=SAR&CTRY=USA&DT=08/03/2002&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

A week after that, (On August 10th), The 5-year-old horse was sent to the Tufts New England Veterinary Medical Center Hospital in suburban Boston when he did not respond to treatment for colic-like symptoms. Surgery was performed.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/10918/saratoga-notebook-left-bank-improving-travers-for-repent-tracie-smith-is-one-woman-show

On the evening of August 10th, 2002, the same day that Left Bank developed "colic", an undefeated three year old filly by the name of "Freedom's Daughter" suddenly sickened in the same Trainer's stable. Seventeen days earlier she had won the 6 furlong Schuylerville Stakes at Saratoga.
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=9&BorP=P&TID=SAR&CTRY=USA&DT=07/24/2002&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

But on Monday, August 12th, Freedom's Daughter was dead. Three days after the filly's death, the Trainer was telling Mike Kane of "The Bloodhorse" that Freedom's Daughter had died of "Colitis X".
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/10968/saratoga-notebook-left-banks-recovery-continues-buddha-nears-return-farda-amiga-seeks-alabama-shopping-for-loves-fan-club

One week after the two discussed stable stars sickened, a 3 year old colt named "Warners" became ill. It was August 17th. (I wasn't able to determine when he ran last.) On August 20th Warners died. The Trainer acknowledged Warners had an underlying condition but said the colt died from "laminitis". In his words, "Thats what happened to him...Basically, he was in a real advanced stage of the laminitis and it was beyond repair or beyond stopping."

The Trainer said he was frustrated because even with tests on Warners and an autopsy on Freedom's Daughter, veterinarians had not been able to determine what is the cause of the problem." That's interesting isn't it? The Trainer had previously volunteered that Colitis X felled Freedom's Daughter.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/11079/bsaratoga-notebookb-warners-death-latest-tragedy-to-hit-pletcher-barn-repent-ready-lukas-perplexed

In his words, quote: "Now, any time you get one that even acts a little sick, you wonder whether it's a bug,or the same thing, if those two were related or contagious," he said.

"Everybody tells you no, but the bottom line is I don't think they really know. No one knows exactly what happened, how it happened, why it happened." unquote
(Hmmm, anyone think the Trainer has an inkling as to what happened?)

Horses colic. There's no doubt its a condition to which they are susceptible. However, its very hard to believe it's a illness common to stakes horses in peak condition from the same barn at the same time. It is interesting that Left Bank's track record was surpassed by Lawyer Ron 5 years later. Both horses were trained by the same trainer and both died prematurely of gastro-intestinal maladies. They say Lawyer Ron died from colic.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/51625/stallion-lawyer-ron-euthanized

They're fast, poweful and noble animals, but they are suspectible to certain influences. A horse may colic but the question really is what caused the colic? They are also susceptible to greed.

The Trainer said that salmonella was ruled out a few days after Warners' death.

"Further tests show that it is not clostridium," He said. "That's the way I was thinking it was.

"I think we're back at square one, where they're running more tests. Unfortunately we're back in that same situation where they don't know.

"It's very alarming. To not know is kind of the worst thing. Hopefully they're continue to do some tests and get to the bottom of it."
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/11178/bsaratoga-notebookb-repent-shows-hes-ready-for-gold-cup--still-no-answer-in-warners--case-veitch-returns-stakes-runners-work

Well, maybe not to the very bottom of it.

Willy

You have made a strong hypothetical case against Todd Pletcher whom you never identify, but use the word “Trainer” as a sharp edged sword cutting deeply into the integrity of Todd Pletcher.

Therefore Todd Pletcher might be a cheater, but until there is clear and irrefutable evidence that he is, he must be and should be given the right that he is not.

[Spalding No!]

You have made a strong hypothetical case against Todd Pletcher whom you never identify, but use the word “Trainer” as a sharp edged sword cutting deeply into the integrity of Todd Pletcher.

Therefore Todd Pletcher might be a cheater, but until there is clear and irrefutable evidence that he is, he must be and should be given the right that he is not.

Didn't he mention the 10-day suspension for a positive test during racing's "biggest day", the World Thoroughbred Championships?

[JustRalph]

I didn't know this thread was going to go down this road

when I first read the title.... I thought of Monarchos

[exiles]

WILY WONKA,Funny the same exact post is on the RAGOZIN board by someone posting as CUBE,are you the same guy? or is it a copy.:confused:

[Hanover1]

WILY WONKA,Funny the same exact post is on the RAGOZIN board by someone posting as CUBE,are you the same guy? or is it a copy.:confused:
Considering Todds formal education in animal science, I suspect he knows alot more than he lets on at times.......

[Grits]

Willy Wonka on the first page in the thread titled, "what do you hate to see in a horse?"

You posted:

Todd Pletcher

Here, you begin a new thread along the same vein, indicating in every way that Pletcher is a cheater, but without fact based evidentuary knowledge to back up your deeply researched, well thought out (by some) post. Though, again, you have no facts, only links to the BloodHorse and to Equibase.

One can believe you're, once again, attempting to make a point on this messageboard, (and other boards, too, apparently) albeit primarily noting questionable incidents that occurred eight years ago. Incidents that never brought positive tests, fines, or suspensions.

Steroids have been removed from racing, as everyone at this site knows, so beyond this--your 13th or 14th post--gutlessly stating a trainer is a cheater, what other outstanding, but more up to date enlightenments and accusations might we look forward to in the near future? Particularly noting this is coming from one who is boldly sitting behind the convenience of his cyberland anonymity

Shiek Mo's, most loved of all racehorses he has owned, Dubai Millennium died of Colitis X also. He was a stallion by that time, though, and out in a damn field eating grass. We, by this measure, can understand according to you, he cheats as well?

[Robert Fischer]

Steroids have been removed from racing, as everyone at this site knows

as they have been removed from the NFL, Major League Baseball, and body building as well.

[Relwob Owner]

Didn't he mention the 10-day suspension for a positive test during racing's "biggest day", the World Thoroughbred Championships?


Absolutely correct.....

[Relwob Owner]

You posted:

Todd Pletcher

Here, you begin a new thread along the same vein, indicating in every way that Pletcher is a cheater, but without fact based evidentuary knowledge to back up your deeply researched, well thought out (by some) post. Though, again, you have no facts, only links to the BloodHorse and to Equibase.



Post number 13 refutes this IMO and says it the best....

[Grits]

as they have been removed from the NFL, Major League Baseball, and body building as well.

If one doesn't believe horseracing or any of the above is free from problems, ethical and financial, one may find NASCAR more honest, more to their liking. It'll be interesting to see what, if any, fines or admonishments comes to the two drivers involved in a little rear fender bump at 200 mph at Atlanta Motor Speedway on Saturday. Admitted by the disqualified driver who did the bumping to have been "on purpose to take him out. He did the same to me at Talladega". The car spun into the wall, became airborne, and could just as easily have killed fans landing in the grandstand, as it managed to land on the track.

Horseracing isn't perfect, it just has more folks finding fault and accusing others of cheating than any other sport in existence. This may have to remain, though, and I'll settle with it.

The alternative--its a real bitch when cars, their tires, or their metal parts start flying into grandstands because some idiot says, "he did it to me."

[Grits]

You posted:

Todd Pletcher

Here, you begin a new thread along the same vein, indicating in every way that Pletcher is a cheater, but without fact based evidentuary knowledge to back up your deeply researched, well thought out (by some) post. Though, again, you have no facts, only links to the BloodHorse and to Equibase.



Post number 13 refutes this IMO and says it the best....

Willy Wonka is not an investigative journalist, if he were, he'd be out of a job. He's posting, as noted, links to stories that weren't conclusive. It wasn't learned what caused the horse's deaths.

[Relwob Owner]

[QUOTE=Grits]If one doesn't believe horseracing or any of the above is free from problems, ethical and financial, one may find NASCAR more honest, more to their liking. It'll be interesting to see what, if any, fines or admonishments comes to the two drivers involved in a little rear fender bump at 200 mph at Atlanta Motor Speedway on Saturday. Admitted by the disqualified driver who did the bumping to have been "on purpose to take him out. He did the same to me at Talladega". The car spun into the wall, became airborne, and could just as easily have killed fans landing in the grandstand, as it managed to land on the track.


I dont think this analogy is really on the mark....your comparison here is more like jockeys and horses interfering with each other, not with trainers breaking the rules........

[Relwob Owner]

Willy Wonka is not an investigative journalist, if he were, he'd be out of a job. He's posting, as noted, links to stories that weren't conclusive. It wasn't learned what caused the horse's deaths.


I dont think he is claiming to be....he is taking a bunch of things and trying to connect the dots....I am sure he has an agenda but I dont see the problem with it. Pletcher's horse blew a test at the BC and you seem to be wondering why anyone would imply he is a cheater....in racing, seems like the rules and enforcement are so bad that all you can do is speculate, as some do when wondering why Plecther cant win a Derby.....

[Grits]

[QUOTE=Grits]If one doesn't believe horseracing or any of the above is free from problems, ethical and financial, one may find NASCAR more honest, more to their liking. It'll be interesting to see what, if any, fines or admonishments comes to the two drivers involved in a little rear fender bump at 200 mph at Atlanta Motor Speedway on Saturday. Admitted by the disqualified driver who did the bumping to have been "on purpose to take him out. He did the same to me at Talladega". The car spun into the wall, became airborne, and could just as easily have killed fans landing in the grandstand, as it managed to land on the track.


I dont think this analogy is really on the mark....your comparison here is more like jockeys and horses interfering with each other, not with trainers breaking the rules........

We don't agree RW. Trainers, jockeys on horseback, or drivers running 200 mph. One's actions are either ethical or unethical. It doesn't matter whether this concerns sports, work, family, or whatever. Ethics are a part of everything we do everyday.

[Cratos]

Didn't he mention the 10-day suspension for a positive test during racing's "biggest day", the World Thoroughbred Championships?

Did you read and understand the post? The poster could be absolutely correct about the "Trainer", but the proof has to be there; not conjecture.

[Relwob Owner]

[QUOTE=Relwob Owner][i]

We don't agree RW. Trainers, jockeys on horseback, or drivers running 200 mph. One's actions are either ethical or unethical. It doesn't matter whether this concerns sports, work, family, or whatever. Ethics are a part of everything we do everyday.

Honestly, that feels a bit like a lecture and it makes it seem like I dont think ethics are important and that couldnt be further from the truth.......you seem to be defending Pletcher and championing ethics...strange.....you were comparing racing and NASCAR and your comparison wasnt even close IMO.....if you had mentioned cheating in terms of the cars and how they function, it would fit but you missed the mark bringing up a driver situation.

[sonnyp]

its interesting to see the different attitudes presented on this board.

"you can please some ,all the time; all, some of the time; but never all, all the time" comes to mind.

one thread states that a "clean, old school trainer" is the most "overrated" play in the game because he doesn't win races with the regularity of the "super trainers" but his horses always get bet. this thread questions the ethics of a "super trainer" who's stock seems to fall by the wayside because he has gotten them to perform at a greater level than one should expect.

i have to smile though i know this board represents varried personalities and motives.

racing horses is no different than any aspect of the "new american culture".
maybe its greatest attraction in years gone by was that it wasn't always that way.

today its "just win baby" no matter what it takes. most owners could give a rats ass about "HOW" ,as long as he gets his picture taken, cashes his tickets and impresses his friends.

just look at the quality road situation where a good horseman wanted to take a conservative approach with a good horse. (the time off played as much a part in that change as anything).

you want to win at 60 % on any circuit ? you can't do it with hay, oats and a three furlong breeze. it seems as though some here desire extraordinary results from a utopean approach.

to me that seems, somewhat, like wanting to dance without having to pay the fiddler.

[Grits]

[QUOTE=Grits]

Honestly, that feels a bit like a lecture and it makes it seem like I dont think ethics are important and that couldnt be further from the truth.......you seem to be defending Pletcher and championing ethics...strange.....you were comparing racing and NASCAR and your comparison wasnt even close IMO.....if you had mentioned cheating in terms of the cars and how they function, it would fit but you missed the mark bringing up a driver situation.

I'm not lecturing you and I have no interest in arguing with you either, RW, particularly when reading 8 year old material that, I'm sorry, I find did raise questions, but did not reveal answers.

Its, too, not a matter of defending Pletcher. He and Shug, both, know their horses, I do not. They both are highly successful, and have different training regimens, I'm sure. I can only support and wager on what I see in the past performances. And that is all I can do with any trainer.

[Relwob Owner]

[QUOTE=Relwob Owner]

I'm not lecturing you and I have no interest in arguing with you either, RW, particularly when reading 8 year old material that, I'm sorry, I find did raise questions, but did not reveal answers.

Its, too, not a matter of defending Pletcher. He and Shug, both, know their horses, I do not. They both are highly successful, and have different training regimens, I'm sure. I can only support and wager on what I see in the past performances. And that is all I can do with any trainer.


Thats fair:)

[PaceAdvantage]

The OP is dredging up the worst kept conspiracy theory secret in the game...as if nobody has ever thought about those three deaths occuring so close together before...

What exactly is the point again?

Yeah, we all know Pletcher got busted for some sort of local anesthetic positive:"However, the offense is somewhat mitigated because we find that Pletcher was treating Wait a While with Procaine Penicillin G on the recommendation of his veterinarian and that the treatment was terminated 18 days before the race," wrote the hearing officer. "If, as we believe, another procaine injection was given shortly before the race, there is no evidence to suggest that this was done by Pletcher, or on his behalf."Interestingly, he was suspended in 2004 for something similar:The horse, Tales of Glory, was found to have mepivacaine, a local anesthetic, in his system after the third race at Saratoga Aug. 14, 2004. The horse finished first but was later ruled unplaced.

Pletcher, the 2004 Eclipse Award-winning trainer, said he was unaware of any illegal drugs being administered to the horse, and his defense included a number of other possible explanations for how the horse might have tested positive. The appeals court dismissed them. Mepivacaine has been classified as a Class 2 drug, meaning it has a high potential to affect performance. Racing regulators said a veterinarian determined the drug had been administered to the horse within a prohibited seven-day period prior to the race.Even the poster boy for honest trainers, ol' Billy Mott was suspended once for this kind of thing:Hall of Fame trainer Bill Mott began a seven-day suspension Sept. 3, and was fined $1,000 for a lidocaine positive. The substance was was found in the post-race urine sample of Sweet Charity, who finished third in the sixth race at Aqueduct Jan. 4.

[Spalding No!]

Did you read and understand the post? The poster could be absolutely correct about the "Trainer", but the proof has to be there; not conjecture.

Please define what you deem to be suitable "proof". Most racing jurisdictions are satisfied with a local anesthetic found in urine and/or plasma being prima facie evidence that "cheating" has occurred.

Maybe you need David Caruso to take off his shades and say a cheesey one-liner before you're comfortable leaving the realm of conjecture?

[Willy Wonka]

I dont think he is claiming to be....he is taking a bunch of things and trying to connect the dots....I am sure he has an agenda but I dont see the problem with it. Pletcher's horse blew a test at the BC and you seem to be wondering why anyone would imply he is a cheater....in racing, seems like the rules and enforcement are so bad that all you can do is speculate, as some do when wondering why Plecther cant win a Derby.....

Mr. Bowler I appreciate your decision to not put the "Proverbial Blinkers" on, but expected some to don them here. That's "par for the course"'. It's human nature for some to say "It's a fanciful theory", especially when facts are right before them that they somehow overlooked. Part of it is that people are busy and don't take the time to read, research, check facts, compare and contrast, make deductions and draw implications. Part of it is that many are not capable of it even when the events are transpiring around them. Some are unobservant and fail to discern and people less detail minded are naturally more skeptical of things they can't discern for themselves. Theres also "defenders". The positive wasn't the Trainer's first, yet a poster or two here said where's the proof he's cheating?

But it’s understandable too, because the powers that be in Thoroughbred Racing are taking the issue so lightly. You're right of course. When "Wait a While" finished 3rd in violation of the rules on arguably racings biggest day and all that ensued was a 10 day suspension, (The rules call for 30 days.), the message was "business as usual" or let the bettor beware. How can one expect an average blogger to take cheating seriously when Horse Racings governing bodies treat it so cavalierly?

I remembered the events of almost eight years ago when contemplating the Trainer's recent exceptional weekend prior to serving his suspension. What’s amazing is how fortunate the Trainer has been. You would have thought that with three top class Stakes horses becoming fatally sick within a week of each other that NYRA would have made an aggressive inquiry into the matter, especially with the Trainer's quizzical and defensive on the record statements.

I was also impressed with Zilzal's acumen. He mentioned "Epogen". I know it as EPO. The autopsies failed to conclude what caused the horses deaths, but if at the time they had they focused upon EPO I believe they would have determined the cause. That would have been very unfortunate for someone. There are problems with identifying EPO usage. My understanding is that it quickly metabolizes, but that it does leave trace enzymes.

One of the important pieces of evidence in these matters is Performance Change. If one looks at horses transferred to the Trainer from other trainers there’s often a "Performance Spike". Many handicappers believe the spike in improvement is the result of the new Trainer's expertise. But the spikes I’m referring to are substantial. One can see them clearly by reference to Performance Figures like The Sheets. Case in point, Lawyer Ron. That horse was an iron horse when handled by his previous trainer. He danced every dance and was handled by a professional. His weakness was that he tired late and was in top company at most a 9-furlong horse. However, when transferred to the Trainer Lawyer Ron’s affinity for distance increased along with an extremely sharp spike in his performance rates. Humorously, when asked what he attributed the performance increase to, the Trainer responded “An exercise rider that taught him to rate.”
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/41078/curlin-edges-lawyer-ron-in-gold-cup-thriller (Note the video link mid page)

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=10&BorP=P&TID=SAR&CTRY=USA&DT=07/28/2007&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=11&BorP=P&TID=MTH&CTRY=USA&DT=10/27/2007&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

Well, the poor horse didn’t rate an inch from his previous running style, but no one called the Trainer upon that contention.

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=10&BorP=P&TID=OP&CTRY=USA&DT=03/18/2006&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=9&BorP=P&TID=LAD&CTRY=USA&DT=01/14/2006&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

Lawyer Ron last ran for the Trainer in the Breeders Cup Classic on Oct 27th, 2007. On July 10th of 2008 Lawyer Ron was dead.

Mr. Bowler mentioned the Trainer’s difficulty in the Kentucky Derby. He’s got a couple good ones this year, but it’s my belief that his training regimen takes a good deal out of his horses. Or in other words that they achieve their high performance rates but that consistent performance isn’t possible with that style of training. I also believe there’s additional barn surveillance once the horses get to Churchill Downs and that the specter of blood sampling pre and post race discourages advanced training techniques.

My motive in writing this? Sounds a little like a modern republican tactic to question the messenger, but I think it’s important that what’s already occurred be fully known. I think it probable that widespread general knowledge can exert pressure upon others to modify behavior.

Theres a little more to this story. Well, maybe a lot more, but what I currently know involves a deceased filly named "Cashiers Dream" and a common vet, but I'll save that for now.

Willy

[PaceAdvantage]

Willy...or should I just refer to you as "The Poster" and continue your silly dramatics?

It was an interesting series of events way back when regarding Pletcher (should a buzzer be going off because I actually typed his name), however, shouldn't he have horses dropping dead all over the place every year if your theory is to hold water?

Or are you implying that he no longer "trains" this way? Or has he and his vet finally figured out how to play the game without killing off all the inventory?

Like I said, this isn't news to most people who pay attention to the game. So I'm not quite sure what the point is of dredging up all this again.

Instead of focusing on this old story of Pletcher's, which still isn't conclusive by any stretch of the imagination, why not focus on why a guy like Patrick Biancone, who has been caught red-handed all over the world, is still allowed to go near a racehorse in the United States.

[Dahoss9698]

I was also impressed with Zilzal's acumen.



You lost me here.

[Willy Wonka]

Willy...or should I just refer to you as "The Poster" and continue your silly dramatics?

It was an interesting series of events way back when regarding Pletcher (should a buzzer be going off because I actually typed his name), however, shouldn't he have horses dropping dead all over the place every year if your theory is to hold water?

Or are you implying that he no longer "trains" this way? Or has he and his vet finally figured out how to play the game without killing off all the inventory?

Like I said, this isn't news to most people who pay attention to the game. So I'm not quite sure what the point is of dredging up all this again.

Instead of focusing on this old story of Pletcher's, which still isn't conclusive by any stretch of the imagination, why not focus on why a guy like Patrick Biancone, who has been caught red-handed all over the world, is still allowed to go near a racehorse in the United States.

Mr Pace, you apparently were aware of the "Saratoga Die-Off". Judging by the response here not many others were and that was the point. But even if they were generally aware of it I hope to have added a little detail regarding the coincidences and inconsistencies pertaining to the phenomena that targeted the Trainer's barn.

I thought it was relevant in regard to the level of performance the Trainer got out of his stock on February 20th of this year, especially with a suspension for a Breeders Cup Violation right upon the heels of the big day. I thought it was relevant in regard to the effort of Quality Road in the Donn and the memory of Lawyer Ron.

The use of the term "Trainer" is for emphasis, not drama. The object was to remove some of the secrecy or "fog of racing" rather than to participate further in it.

As for current die offs, I'm sure you're aware there are different froms of EPO and that it encourages red blood cell production and that red blood cells carry oxygen. Some forms turned out to have more immediate side effects.

Regarding Patrick Biancone, if memory serves he has been ruled off Hong Kong racing entirely and recently served a long suspension in the United States for Cobratoxin possession. But Biancone's stock doesn't exhibit the same performance leaps in Derby Preps nor do horses transferred to him suddenly attain out of history performance figures. My view is that Justice is making Biancone an honest man and that Justice should be universally done among others that are evading the rules. To that end I hope this little history lesson helped.

Willy

[PaceAdvantage]

As for current die offs, I'm sure you're aware there are different froms of EPO and that it encourages red blood cell production and that red blood cells carry oxygen. Some forms turned out to have more immediate side effects.If what you're saying is true, then surely other trainers should have experienced some sort of "mass die-off" as well, as there is rarely only one guy hording all of the "good stuff" at any given time...any other examples come to mind over the past 10 years or so?

[Robert Fischer]

logically,the worst offenders with long term effect drugs are heartless claiming trainers use an animal up for several races and drop them way down in class. I don't know the fate of a lot of those animals.

I don't necessarily agree that the cheating pletcher has done has contributed to deaths or these several deaths.

I don't know enough to handicap specific drugs and effects. I can just tell when a trainer has horses moving up. Sadly?, I don't worry much about whether he is cus d'amato and john wooten rolled up into one, or he's 'juicing.

Pletcher gives the impression, at times, that he isn't picking his spots... that he wants to please a lot of owners, and breeders, over a lot of animals... and he doesn't always reserve his best training techniques for his very best stock. At times, that makes him standout more among the class trainers. Certainly not the only one who goes all out (all in?) at times.

[Grits]

To that end I hope this little history lesson helped.
Nope, not so much if one was at Saratoga that particular summer and recalls these horse's deaths. And the conclusions that weren't ever revealed.

Regarding your closely held secrets on the dead Cashier's Dream and the common vet, maybe you'll be eager to share that one also, if you were on hand for the autopsy and the test results.

While on this well informed tear, not to single out only Todd Pletcher, and continuing along the theme of cheating, do you have any facts on the Dutrow brother's questionable, but seemingly successful, use of shoe changes, and the affects these changes have on racehorse performance? Their miraculous next out improvements of horses after having been moved to their barns? Of course, they need to have been in "da new shoes" for about 4 to 6 weeks to be most effective.

I can't recall, off hand, if any of the Dutrow's horses have died as a result of their shoe changes, ie--this another edge . . . . . but let's hope not.

[46zilzal]

Imagine what happens to diabetics with neuropathies: they continue to walk on limbs that may or may not be sending pain signals back to the central nervous system because systemic disease has killed of the early warning system so many develop Charcot joints destroyed by not knowing he damage.

CHEMICALLY, via anti-inflammatories, many of these trainers are doing the same things to their horses.

Take away the system set up to warn the animal of pain and one is inviting tragedy and injury.

[WinterTriangle]

logically,the worst offenders with long term effect drugs are heartless claiming trainers use an animal up for several races and drop them way down in class. I don't know the fate of a lot of those animals.

And there will even be plenty of people defending them.

Pletcher gives the impression, at times, that he isn't picking his spots

Sort of like the ALL wager, or posters who give trifecta with the kitchen sink thrown in, then claim what good handicappers they are. The odds are bound to go in your favor eventually if you throw enough marbles at the target.

(I prefer a focussed, targetted approach, and I can always get a sense of a trainer who "believes" in one horse....intention + belief is a lethal combination)


And then, don't think that there aren't bettors who suspect med magic, and wager those horses even more....as there are many people who care more about making a buck than the long term ethics of the sport.

There's hardly any sense talking about ethics if they are not going to be enforced by the governing bodies. Even bothering to point fingers is just an exercise.........a good read, and food for thought, but until racing changes drastically, nothing comes out of it.

[Show Me the Wire]

If what you're saying is true, then surely other trainers should have experienced some sort of "mass die-off" as well, as there is rarely only one guy hording all of the "good stuff" at any given time...any other examples come to mind over the past 10 years or so?


Just injecting a thought here. Isn't the above being implied about a certain owner?

Posters are always pressuring to know or demanding proof about what happened to all the claimed horses, of a very large claiming operation, which are no longer racing, but have been given to good homes. I don't see how this scenario is much different, with the exception one is well liked and the other is not.

[Ejmenz]

Has Andy Beyer ever pointed out any of these stats about Pletcher's horses?

I remember he used to light up Scott Lake.

Does he now attack Jamie Ness? (Ness came from Lakes barn)

I mean how do we charge one person with chemical horsemanship, while others are applauded with similar results.

[Cratos]

Please define what you deem to be suitable "proof". Most racing jurisdictions are satisfied with a local anesthetic found in urine and/or plasma being prima facie evidence that "cheating" has occurred.

Maybe you need David Caruso to take off his shades and say a cheesey one-liner before you're comfortable leaving the realm of conjecture?

News that is new and verifiable; not a compilation of rehashed rhetoric.

[PaceAdvantage]

I mean how do we charge one person with chemical horsemanship, while others are applauded with similar results.Scott Lake and Jamie Ness have been caught with illegal substances in their horses far more times than Pletcher...correct?

That could be one reason.

Hell, like I pointed out earlier, even Bill "The Angel" Mott was caught and suspended for a local anesthetic, similar to what Pletcher was just suspended for regarding the 2008 Breeders' Cup.

[Igeteven]

Here is one of the problems I have been writing about,

This trainer license should be revoke in that states and all others. He is done with horse racing.

The horse goes back to the farm for 90 days to dry out, and the owner must find a new trainer.


This would solved some of the drugs problems.

[Spalding No!]

News that is new and verifiable; not a compilation of rehashed rhetoric.

What planet do you hail from? A place where one wakes up each morning with a clean slate?

So now, because his infractions happened in the past, he ceases to be a "cheater" today?

Take me to your leader...

Hopefully its not Bill Murray...unless he's about to achieve "total consciousness"...which is nice.

[Cratos]

What planet do you hail from? A place where one wakes up each morning with a clean slate?

So now, because his infractions happened in the past, he ceases to be a "cheater" today?

Take me to your leader...

Hopefully its not Bill Murray...unless he's about to achieve "total consciousness"...which is nice.

If you believe that Todd Pletcher is a cheater, good for you. It is not up to me to tell you how to believe and maybe I am from another planet and that is the planet which you are not on.

[Spalding No!]

If you believe that Todd Pletcher is a cheater, good for you. It is not up to me to tell you how to believe and maybe I am from another planet and that is the planet which you are not on.

You're evading the whole point of this tedious exchange. You act as though Todd Pletcher has not done anything in the past that should brand him a "cheater" despite being cited and punished for breaking the rules of racing on more than one occasion.

Whether the things he's been cited for are "significant" are debatable, and from your posts on this thread it seems your view is that they are in fact forgettable.

Thus, the question remains, what does it take for a trainer to be considered a "cheater" in your view? Clearly you don't respect the policies of the various racing jurisdictions that have filed complaints against him.

What evidence do you require if body fluid analysis post-performance is not adequate? Do you need a paper trail linking him to the purchase of banned substances? Do you require visual evidence of him personally administering a banned substance within 2 days of a race? Do you need a signed confession obtained through a neutral interrogation performed in accordance with the protocols outlined by the Geneva Conventions?

Please bring us the light.

[FenceBored]

Or, maybe they nab you with a hypo of vodka (the drink, not the mare) in your hand.

Stewards at Turfway Park in Kentucky have issued a ruling suspending trainer Jeffrey Scott Raley for one year after one of his employees was seen with a hypodermic needle and syringe containing vodka in the receiving barn prior to a race.
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/55799/1-year-suspension-recommended-for-ky-trainer

[Willy Wonka]

If what you're saying is true, then surely other trainers should have experienced some sort of "mass die-off" as well, as there is rarely only one guy hording all of the "good stuff" at any given time...any other examples come to mind over the past 10 years or so?

"I'm using Epogen on my horses to build red blood cells. It was designed to help anemia patients but a horse is a big ole strong animal and the more red blood cells he has the faster he gets. Why don't you try some and see for yourself. Oh sure, technically its "performance enhancing", but in this case go head and tell the stewards. They can't even judge a dangerous ride, how the hell are they gonna know what epogen is."

One unscrupulous vet came upon the scene but in the experimentation stages its not likely what was being done was broadcast. There was a small band "in the loop". Pletcher, Asmussen, Frankel and later Dutrow all shared the vet. The time frame was certainly the summer of 2002, but I believe the performance spikes began occurring in the second half of 2001. I'm sure race observers remember the period where Pletcher and Frankel won a blatantly disproportionate share of Grade I Stakes. Subsequent Performance Figures indicate Frankel discontinued and Dutrow had a falling out. To my knowledge, the other two trainers still employ the vet.

I'd look at the case of Asmussen trained Cashier's Dream. She also died of an internal sickening within the time frame of the Trainer's die off. When time permits, I'll continue looking into the matter, but I don't share your view that there should be other "mass die offs". I believe the circle was tight and convinced that the Trainer's deaths were performance enhancing agent induced, there are many variables. Among them what form of drug was used and what dosage was given. Put yourself in the Vet and Trainers shoes. When three of your stable stars treated sicken and die within a week, whats your likely response?

EPO comes in many forms:

Epogen which is made by Amgen
Epotin which is made by Gulf Pharmaceutical Ind. (JULPHAR)
Betapoietin which is made by CinnaGen and Zahravi
ReliPoietin which is made by Reliance Life Sciences Pvt. Ltd
Epokine which is made by Intas Biopharmaceutica Pvt. Ltd

And new drugs with similar function have come upon the market:

More recently, a novel erythropoiesis-stimulating protein (NESP) has been produced.[9] This glycoprotein demonstrates anti-anemic capabilities and has a longer terminal half-life than erythropoietin. NESP offers chronic renal failure patients a lower dose of hormones to maintain normal hemoglobin levels.

I found the listed common side effects for EPO poignant:

Constipation; cough; diarrhea; headache; indigestion; joint or muscle aches; nausea; respiratory congestion; sleeplessness; stinging at the injection site; stomach pain; vomiting.
http://www.drugs.com/sfx/epogen-side-effects.html

In other words, colic. But I think the damage done was more than mere colic.

[PaceAdvantage]

Pletcher, Asmussen, Frankel and later Dutrow all shared the vet.Anything anywhere to back this up? I find it hard to believe Pletcher, Asmussen and Frankel all shared the same vet, given their varied geographical home bases...

[Grits]

Anything anywhere to back this up? I find it hard to believe Pletcher, Asmussen and Frankel all shared the same vet, given their varied geographical home bases...

He's probably implying Dr.Steve Allday. He had no problem naming trainers, though, he's hesitant to name his unscrupulous veterinarian who he claims have loaded up these trainer's horses.

And as many are aware, the alleged questionable practices of Allday, though again not able to be proven, are really old, old news having been plastered all over messageboards, radio shows, and other websites.

Matter of fact, WW's entire bit, here, is old. As is epogen.

[Relwob Owner]

Here is one of the problems I have been writing about,

This trainer license should be revoke in that states and all others. He is done with horse racing.

The horse goes back to the farm for 90 days to dry out, and the owner must find a new trainer.


This would solved some of the drugs problems.


Suspending the horse would be a great solution.....it would punish the trainer and also the owner but wouldnt put the owner out of business if he had others. Yes, it would hurt the owner who uses a guy who had no violations and pops up with one...however, doesnt it seem like the same guys always blow tests?????

You need to give owners a reason to stay away from the trainers who break the rules now and I think suspending the horse would do it....anything is better than the joke enforcement is now....

[Saratoga_Mike]

Suspending the horse would be a great solution.....it would punish the trainer and also the owner but wouldnt put the owner out of business if he had others. Yes, it would hurt the owner who uses a guy who had no violations and pops up with one...however, doesnt it seem like the same guys always blow tests?????

You need to give owners a reason to stay away from the trainers who break the rules now and I think suspending the horse would do it....anything is better than the joke enforcement is now....

Once again, it is not the owner's responsibility to police the sport (unless of course they are doing so in a capacity to change penalties/regulations and/or to report activity they deem unlawful). Because the existing rules, regulations and penalties aren't harsh enough, you want to put in place a completely new rule/regulation. Makes no sense, imo.

[PaceAdvantage]

He's probably implying Dr.Steve Allday. The very same Dr. Steve Allday who said this on Steve Byk's radio show about Dutrow two years ago during the Wild Desert debacle?"I saw alot of things going on in that barn that shouldn't be going on" - Steve Allday on At the RacesGiven Wonk's wily accusations, it seems odd that Allday would be the one....

[Relwob Owner]

Once again, it is not the owner's responsibility to police the sport (unless of course they are doing so in a capacity to change penalties/regulations and/or to report activity they deem unlawful). Because the existing rules, regulations and penalties aren't harsh enough, you want to put in place a completely new rule/regulation. Makes no sense, imo.



I totally agree that the current rules arent harsh enough....I only suggest the owners deal with the thought that the rules for the trainers wont change.....I just figure a new rule regarding owners might be more realistic than changing the same rules the powers that be have thought prevented foul play for so long....