Ramon Dominguez. Best jockey ever?

[Stillriledup]

How is it possible that Ramon has a higher ITM percentage than Russell Baze (69 to 67)?

Baze rides in 5 horse fields constantly and he's almost always on the even money shot. Also, Dominguez has 40 more mounts than Russell. The more mounts you accept, the more likely it is that you're going to lower your ITM percentage.

This is staggering. How can he be ITM almost 70 percent considering the amount of mounts he accepts?

This is sheer greatness.

No?

[lamboguy]

its pretty simple, steve only puts ramon on the best horse in the race, if a big trainer wants him and he gets another call he goes to the better horse every time. russel might have to play more politics in northern califoria.

i see that ramon rides assmussen horses as well as anyone, what i wonder is if he would ever ride first call assmussen. assmussen got to love the way he rides his horses.

[boomman]

How is it possible that Ramon has a higher ITM percentage than Russell Baze (69 to 67)?

Baze rides in 5 horse fields constantly and he's almost always on the even money shot. Also, Dominguez has 40 more mounts than Russell. The more mounts you accept, the more likely it is that you're going to lower your ITM percentage.

This is staggering. How can he be ITM almost 70 percent considering the amount of mounts he accepts?

This is sheer greatness.

No?

Ramon is a very good rider no doubt, as is Russell Baze, but IMHO neither one are even in the top 3 of greatest riders ever. In the group that I have witnessed for the last 30 years (not going back beyond that) Russell has the most wins, has a great work ethic and is a super guy. But as for sheer talent, Gary Stevens (in his prime before his knee injury) Pat Day and Laffit Pincay were the best 3 jocks I ever saw.;)

Boomer

[46zilzal]

Dominguez is one of the few who makes horses significantly better and is moving TOWARD the group of Carroll Shilling, Todd Sloan, "Snapper" Garrison, George Wolff, Aracro, Shoe, Pincay and Bailey, but not arrived quite yet.

The wonderful Cuban rider who died at Woodbine, Avelino Gomez, had the best lifetime win percentage.

[Vinnie]

Hey folks:

I don't know the numbers, but, didn't Ramon Dominguez put up the Best numbers stats wise in the history of the NYRA circuit this past racing season for one single racing season (for 2009)? If I am not mistaken, I believe that he broke the record for the most wins ever on the NYRA circuit. :)

I realize that Garrett Gomez and Julien Leparoux are most definitely more well known than he is, but, I truly believe (IMHO) that he should have won the Eclipse Award for Best Jockey of 2009. Of course, that is merely my opinion. An even bigger question is, when are we going to see a year on the NYRA circuit like he posted this past season again?

[PhantomOnTour]

He's pretty damn good.

[therussmeister]

Baze rides in 5 horse fields constantly and he's almost always on the even money shot.



That Baze is almost always on the even-money shot may simply reflect the No.Cal. betters putting more emphasis on the jockey than the NY betters do, and may not be an accurate reflection on the comparative abilities of the horses he rides.

[the little guy]

Ramon is as good a rider as I have ever seen. The professionalism he brings every day is remarkable. It's funny, I'm watching the HBO show about Bird and Magic, and I feel like Ramon brings to his job what those two legends brought to their's. He rides the inner as well as any rider could and it doesn't matter the level of quality. Take a look at his ride in the 9th race last Thursday. It was a $16K maiden claiming race and his ride was as good a ride as any rider could have ever given any horse. Nobody, and I mean nobody, would have won with that horse besides Ramon. Take a look at his ride on Goldsville in Saturday's 5th race. First, he goes to the lead, and he gets it. Then, others go, so he takes back a little on the backstretch. Then things get a little tight and as they run for home he is totally packaged behind and between horses, but he doesn't check and lose ground, he holds steady and waits, and when the slightest seem opens he busts through. He doesn't panic when horses back up in his face and steady severely, and just smoothly gathers his horses in and waits with confidence. If his mounts are empty, so be it, but if not they get their best possible chances to win at as high a percentage as any rider I have ever seen.

As for comparisons, I've seen the great riders of the last 30 years, and there have been some extremely good ones. But, I also never watched them as closely, day to day, as I watch Ramon. So, from my perspective it's not fair to say which one is necessarily better than the others. Cordero, Bailey, Stevens, McCarron, Pincay....they were tremendous riders. But Ramon is as well and watching him every day, especially through the long winter on the inner, is a pleasure and a privilege.

[Ejmenz]

Stevens was the most talented, Pincay was the best, and Shoe, don't forget Shoe, considering EVERYTHING that goes in to being jockey, Shoemaker might have been the best jockey ever, either him or Pincay, those two jockeys could never be more different, two different styles to greatness.

Anyone remember Alvaro Pinada, that was a talented rider.

[Robert Goren]

You never see Baze on a dog, at least in N. Cal. Dominguez gets a few mounts that look, at least on paper, to have very little chance. The thing that impresses me about Dominguez is how well he gets himself out of trouble.

[castaway01]

Not sure if the original poster meant best EVER or best CURRENTLY, but Ramon is right at the top of the list amongst current riders. You could see back in his Delaware days that he had a hell of a lot of talent, patience, and great timing, and he's continued to perform at the same level on the big stage.

[46zilzal]

Stevens was the most talented, Pincay was the best, and Shoe, don't forget Shoe, considering EVERYTHING that goes in to being jockey, Shoemaker might have been the best jockey ever, either him or Pincay, those two jockeys could never be more different, two different styles to greatness.

Anyone remember Alvaro Pinada, that was a talented rider.
I recall the day his head was crushed in the gate at Anita and then brother Robert was killed not long after. Laffit often mentions what a good rider he thought Pineda was.

[Marshall Bennett]

He's not afraid to try anything in getting his mount home . That alone sets him apart from many . A very determained rider . To say he is the best ever would be stretching it a bit I believe . Certainly one of the best .

[Johnny V]

He's not afraid to try anything in getting his mount home . That alone sets him apart from many . A very determained rider . To say he is the best ever would be stretching it a bit I believe . Certainly one of the best .
:ThmbUp: Ditto.

[tzipi]

One of the best all around I've seen. Can put a field to sleep on the front end. He can position so well behind a good pace. He can get his mount of of trouble in a flash. He's just a smart jock who doesn't just need a heavy favorite to win.

[46zilzal]

I was impressed the way he tried his best to get out of the bobbling Afleet Alex's way in that one's Preakness, after his mount bolted from left handed whipping.

[RXB]

He's a very good jockey, but "best ever" is way over the top. The Aqueduct inner meet is Triple-A ball; yeah, he's much better than David Cohen. At truly major meets and in major races, Dominguez is a solid jockey but he hasn't dominated.

[the little guy]

Cohen. At truly major meets and in major races, Dominguez is a solid jockey but he hasn't dominated.


He won every racing meet in NY this year. So, sorry, but he dominated.

[RXB]

He won every racing meet in NY this year. So, sorry, but he dominated.

Yes, that's true, Andy. I guess I would have to grant that he is the top jockey in NY, but I've never had the impression that it was man-vs.-boys when he is facing the best riders, which is sort of how it would have to be before I'd say "best ever" is a legitimate possibility. At the inner meet, he's obviously much the best.

[Gaelic Storm]

Last year at Saratoga, probably the best jockey colony anywhere, Ramon was clearly the top guy. There is no doubt in my mind that he is the best, day in and day out.

[Robert Fischer]

Take a look at his ride in the 9th race last Thursday. It was a $16K maiden claiming race and his ride was as good a ride as any rider could have ever given any horse.

yes it was. I like seeing Saez try to mimic RD in that race as well.



dominguez DOMINATED. Usually in the right place, good judgement, even with occasional inner bias where you may have several jockeys gunning for a spot he controls those races.
He doesn't hinder as many horses as just about every jockey.

[the little guy]

Yes, that's true, Andy. I guess I would have to grant that he is the top jockey in NY, but I've never had the impression that it was man-vs.-boys when he is facing the best riders, which is sort of how it would have to be before I'd say "best ever" is a legitimate possibility. At the inner meet, he's obviously much the best.


I hear you. " Best ever " arguments rarely mean a lot.

[46zilzal]

I hear you. " Best ever " arguments rarely mean a lot.
Sure they do. First time I went to Oak Tree I had heard of Shoe but learned that the best I ever say live, was running that day fresh from Chicago where he had been a contract rider for Fred W. Hooper.

Laffit "willed" horses to the wire and that rail skimming Belmont ride on Caveat was one for the ages.

[Robert Fischer]

Yes, that's true, Andy. I guess I would have to grant that he is the top jockey in NY, but I've never had the impression that it was man-vs.-boys when he is facing the best riders, which is sort of how it would have to be before I'd say "best ever" is a legitimate possibility. At the inner meet, he's obviously much the best.

I think versus the very best, he simply is going to give a quality finesse ride and have a ton left in the stretch.

I agree with you that he doesn't DOMINATE the biggest races vs the best,

but he hasn't had the mounts either.

Taking such n such Big Name Trainer's second or third string for big stakes is a hard spot to stand out in.

[the little guy]

Please let the adults talk.

[46zilzal]

I rarely use the word GREAT as regards anything in racing as it is rarefied air time. It is over used without perspective.

Most, with no historical perspective of the game, save the last twenty years, could not give an educated opinion if they tried about what constitutes true greatness in this game. TOO many very good ones have been forgotten to simply jump on the current day bandwagon.

Once or twice a generation, true greatness in a rider comes along. After watching Stevens win Longacres for two years, I thought he had a shot, but for all his brilliance he was spotty.

[Robert Fischer]

Borel

sure isn't in the Best Ever conversation, but you have to give the man credit for being a big game monster in the past several years.

He helps sharpen street sense and beats a better Hard Spun in one of the few trips that didn't go to hell for HS in his prime. Spun runs a faster final quarter than his previous and Borel skims the rail and beats him with Street Sense.
A hell of a class animal, but you have to appreciate the ride.

I don't think people understand how much Borel put into that horse. He pulled off that crap in the Juvenile. and then all the know it all start raving about the "rail was golden that day".
Shit if you don't do any running and everyone else runs a completely different race with a hard pace, and you sweep up along the rail and save all the ground you SHOULD have a lot of horse.

Borel on Mine That Bird kind of took away from the Street sense legacy a little. It had to. He did for me. I look back on the events in a different perspective now. MTB certainly was not a standout horse. Probably in the top 10 of that derby field. Borel got on that horse in the morning too.

And then you see the job borel did with Rachel. Borel is probably the best at getting on a decent horse in the morning and waking them up. You don't see anyone, maybe valdivia on a rare occasion, who can move put some electricity into a horse like that in the am.

and he's clearly not as good as Ramon, but he almost makes you think if we're evaluating things correctly.

[46zilzal]

I put riders into categories here with an example of each.

WILD ones: Ycaza, Cordero, Eddie Belmonte.....always pushing the limits
Steady: they don't make mistakes and almost look routine: Bailey, Day, Prado, and many other quiet journeymen over the years.
Spotty: ride as Hall of Famer's one day, dummies the next: Stevens (as he was often reminded by Lukas), P. Val and we known why and poor old Eric Guerin who only misjudged the finish once, but couldn't pick a worse time.
Flashes in the pan: too numerous to count.

CLASSIC: Shoe, Aracaro, Longden
Money men: the Iceman, Don Pierce, Eddie D.

There are many of the younger guys who have not ridden enough who are not listed here. Alavaro Pineda was probably headed for greatness - we will never know.

[Spalding No!]

Alavaro Pineda was probably headed for greatness - we will never know.

Is "Pineda" Spanish for "Pinhead"?

Sweet.

[Stillriledup]

Ramon is as good a rider as I have ever seen. The professionalism he brings every day is remarkable. It's funny, I'm watching the HBO show about Bird and Magic, and I feel like Ramon brings to his job what those two legends brought to their's. He rides the inner as well as any rider could and it doesn't matter the level of quality. Take a look at his ride in the 9th race last Thursday. It was a $16K maiden claiming race and his ride was as good a ride as any rider could have ever given any horse. Nobody, and I mean nobody, would have won with that horse besides Ramon. Take a look at his ride on Goldsville in Saturday's 5th race. First, he goes to the lead, and he gets it. Then, others go, so he takes back a little on the backstretch. Then things get a little tight and as they run for home he is totally packaged behind and between horses, but he doesn't check and lose ground, he holds steady and waits, and when the slightest seem opens he busts through. He doesn't panic when horses back up in his face and steady severely, and just smoothly gathers his horses in and waits with confidence. If his mounts are empty, so be it, but if not they get their best possible chances to win at as high a percentage as any rider I have ever seen.

As for comparisons, I've seen the great riders of the last 30 years, and there have been some extremely good ones. But, I also never watched them as closely, day to day, as I watch Ramon. So, from my perspective it's not fair to say which one is necessarily better than the others. Cordero, Bailey, Stevens, McCarron, Pincay....they were tremendous riders. But Ramon is as well and watching him every day, especially through the long winter on the inner, is a pleasure and a privilege.

This is a great post.

Good stuff Andy.

[Stillriledup]

I feel that a lot of people don't have the ability to determine 'all time great' until they see the 'finished product'. People have a very hard time saying that a current athlete is the best who's ever played. People need to see a complete career in order to make that statement. I'm asking if Dominguez is the best of all time. I think that as time wears on, the skill, strength, balance and smarts of riders gets higher and higher. If you go back and watch film from the 1950s, you see riders 'swinging' their legs in the stirrups back and forth. I know that this was the style in the day, but if a rider like Arcaro came out of a time machine and was transported to 2010, he wouldn't be competitive with today's riders. You don't see top riders 'swinging their feet' back and forth in today's game.

[only11]

Ramon is a very good rider no doubt, as is Russell Baze, but IMHO neither one are even in the top 3 of greatest riders ever. In the group that I have witnessed for the last 30 years (not going back beyond that) Russell has the most wins, has a great work ethic and is a super guy. But as for sheer talent, Gary Stevens (in his prime before his knee injury) Pat Day and Laffit Pincay were the best 3 jocks I ever saw.;)

Boomer
Whoah no bailey..

[46zilzal]

I feel that a lot of people don't have the ability to determine 'all time great' until they see the 'finished product'. People have a very hard time saying that a current athlete is the best who's ever played. People need to see a complete career in order to make that statement. I'm asking if Dominguez is the best of all time. I think that as time wears on, the skill, strength, balance and smarts of riders gets higher and higher. If you go back and watch film from the 1950s, you see riders 'swinging' their legs in the stirrups back and forth. I know that this was the style in the day, but if a rider like Arcaro came out of a time machine and was transported to 2010, he wouldn't be competitive with today's riders. You don't see top riders 'swinging their feet' back and forth in today's game.
I see English riders wasting all manner or energy sitting high in the saddle and rocking back and forth.....They still do well.

Style partners with the times

This is akin to saying that all the great high jumpers were chumps because they didn't use the Fosbury flop

[tzipi]

Whoah no bailey..

I agree Bailey is surely up top. The only thing he killed me with was his riding on Cigar. He made that horse work more than he should've. Towards the end he just thought Cigar was unbeatble and would keep him wide all race and make him run longer than he had too. Plus that Pacific Classic was ridiculous. Siphon was never going to win that race and through those fractions and Bailey has Cigar up with him??? Lay off Siphon and beat Dare and Go home by 3 lengths.

[cj's dad]

Alavaro Pineda was probably headed for greatness - we will never know.

I read "A day at the races" 20+ years ago; was he the guy who had his head crushed at the top of the starting gate ????

[Stillriledup]

I see English riders wasting all manner or energy sitting high in the saddle and rocking back and forth.....They still do well.

Style partners with the times

This is akin to saying that all the great high jumpers were chumps because they didn't use the Fosbury flop

Yeah, but the best english riders have the 'down in the saddle' style, right?

Doing well and being an all time great are two different things.

[Hanover1]

Yeah, but the best english riders have the 'down in the saddle' style, right?

Doing well and being an all time great are two different things.
Hot hand (involves several factors...)+ longevity=greatness.

[aaron]

I've followed NY racing for over 35 years. I would say Cordero is the best rider I have ever seen. Steve Cauthen's short run was nothing short of remarkable. Chris Antley had as much natural talent as any jockey. Bailey was great for a lot of years.
I think Dominguez has a chance to be an all time great. He seems to have a plan every race. He never panics, he rides the inner as good as any jockey.
To be an all time great,he'll have to get some big horses,but of the jockeys riding today,it is my opinion he is the best.
I thought Bailey was a great rider before he got the big horses and hopefully Dominguez will follow his path and get big horses.

[boomman]

Whoah no bailey..

Not in my top 3, no......In fact as good of a rider as he obviously was, I think he was overrated a bit..........I never saw him as one of the best of all time.......;)

Boomer

[PhantomOnTour]

I thought English/Euro riders have that style because the ground they run on isnt level, and riding like Americans would cause them to lose balance. Notice their feet are in the stirrups practically up to the heel while American riders barely have their toes in. It doesnt look aerodynamic but I think thats the reason they ride that way.

[Stillriledup]

I thought English/Euro riders have that style because the ground they run on isnt level, and riding like Americans would cause them to lose balance. Notice their feet are in the stirrups practically up to the heel while American riders barely have their toes in. It doesnt look aerodynamic but I think thats the reason they ride that way.

Interesting.

[Greyfox]

Bejarano is very good....someday maybe among the greats.

[eastie]

I've followed NY racing for over 35 years. I would say Cordero is the best rider I have ever seen. Steve Cauthen's short run was nothing short of remarkable. Chris Antley had as much natural talent as any jockey. Bailey was great for a lot of years.
I think Dominguez has a chance to be an all time great. He seems to have a plan every race. He never panics, he rides the inner as good as any jockey.
To be an all time great,he'll have to get some big horses,but of the jockeys riding today,it is my opinion he is the best.
I thought Bailey was a great rider before he got the big horses and hopefully Dominguez will follow his path and get big horses.


really an excellent post..covering The Ant and Steve Cauthen. I think one of Dominguez's stronger assets is his ability to read the racing form. He can see the race being run before it's run and has a backup plan in case some nitwit snatches the lone speed or something ridic like that.

[Jeremy Jet]

Best ever? That's an absurd proposition.

Dominguez is an exceptionally smart rider, and that strength alone has allowed him to vault to the top of the NY colony, as he is riding against a remarkably dumb group. Essentially, he outsmarts his competition on a daily basis.

He is, however, nowhere near the athlete that Cordero or Pincay were, and would therefore have been at a big disadvantage when up against the likes of them in tight races. He also would have been disadvantaged in many cases against a brilliantly aggressive rider such as Cordero, as the latter would have seized opportunities and forced Dominguez out of his game (something that none of his current peers are capable of).

I'm willing to remain open-minded until his career winds down, but as of now, he falls well short of being "great".

[Stillriledup]

Best ever? That's an absurd proposition.

Dominguez is an exceptionally smart rider, and that strength alone has allowed him to vault to the top of the NY colony, as he is riding against a remarkably dumb group. Essentially, he outsmarts his competition on a daily basis.

He is, however, nowhere near the athlete that Cordero or Pincay were, and would therefore have been at a big disadvantage when up against the likes of them in tight races. He also would have been disadvantaged in many cases against a brilliantly aggressive rider such as Cordero, as the latter would have seized opportunities and forced Dominguez out of his game (something that none of his current peers are capable of).

I'm willing to remain open-minded until his career winds down, but as of now, he falls well short of being "great".


So, you're saying that riders in general haven't improved at all in the last 30 years?

[Marshall Bennett]

Not in my top 3, no......In fact as good of a rider as he obviously was, I think he was overrated a bit..........I never saw him as one of the best of all time.......;)

Boomer
Well said . :ThmbUp:

[Jeremy Jet]

So, you're saying that riders in general haven't improved at all in the last 30 years?

That wasn't my primary point, but yes, I certainly do believe it to be the case. After all, why would they be better now? Advances in training and performance enhancing drugs would be the only reasons I can think of, as unlike other sports, being bigger and stronger is a non-starter for jockeys. As to the other two factors, I don't either of them having a significant impact on jockeys.

[46zilzal]

I read "A day at the races" 20+ years ago; was he the guy who had his head crushed at the top of the starting gate ????
yes

[Stillriledup]

That wasn't my primary point, but yes, I certainly do believe it to be the case. After all, why would they be better now? Advances in training and performance enhancing drugs would be the only reasons I can think of, as unlike other sports, being bigger and stronger is a non-starter for jockeys. As to the other two factors, I don't either of them having a significant impact on jockeys.

If the riders of today are even 1% stronger than their counterparts from the 1950s, that could be worth everything. We need to constantly keep in mind that many horse races are won or lost by hundredths of seconds. The difference in many races from 1st or 5th is most times, less than 1 second and quite often, its a tenth of a second. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are riding on tenths of seconds. If you're a tenth of a second faster, you can make tens of thousands more dollars. We're not talking minutes or hours, we're talking tenths of seconds. So, if a jockey was 1% stronger, or had 1% more 'balance' or 1% more inherent athletic ability than a jock from 1950, that's everything. The best jock today would be better than the best jock in 1950, which means that if Ramon Dominguez has 1% more strength, balance and inherent athletic ability than Eddie Arcaro, he's superior.

I think most people really don't like to knock the older great jock. People don't want to knock Shoe, Angel, Eddie or any of the greats from 40 and 50 years ago and say that some guy named Ramon Dominguez is actually better, it doesn't make sense to them.

Think about it this way. Think about who Ramon Dominguez's competition is? Its many guys who are similar to him, young, incredibly athletic, shredded little bodybuilders with incredible strength......who was Eddie Arcaro riding against? This is the same argument that works in all sports also. Look at baseball. People say Babe Ruth was the greatest player, but who was he hitting all those homeruns off of? He wasn't hitting homers off Mariano Rivera, Tim Lincecum, Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay, he was hitting them off John Doe and Joe Blow for the most part. Also, Babe Ruth was hitting homeruns off white guys, he didnt' have to face latin, asian or black pitchers and he didn't have to face relief specialists who came in to mix and match in the 8th and 9th innings. Ruth faces a bunch of out of shape white guys who worked in the offseason pumping gas and waiting tables at restaurants to make a few extra bucks. The pitchers Ruth faced, for the most part, weren't nearly as good as the pitchers Albert Pujols and Alex Rodriguez face in today's game.

So, the argument really comes down to how far advanced today's athlete is from the guys of yesteryear. I believe its quite a bit, in almost all sports.

[46zilzal]

Come on NO rider alive was stronger than Laffit Pincay Jr.


NONE of them and very few as fearless

George Wolfe NEVER lost a photo finish in a stakes race. That has nothing to do with pure strength but is perfect timing.

NO one has ever shown the patience and as coaxing a ride as the Shoe. no one period.

Todhunter Sloan and Carroll Shilling re wrote the record books in their day.

You really need to get a book and read about this sport and it's history as greatness is not limited to the last 20 years.

[46zilzal]

Sloan, ‘Todhunter’ (1873–1933)

US jockey. Often winning as many as five races in a day, he rode 137 winners from 369 mounts in 1897 and an amazing 186 winners from 362 mounts (45.1 %) in 1898.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_H._Shilling
In a short career, Carroll Shilling won 969 races and in his final three seasons, had a remarkable thirty-four percent winning percentage. In 1970, the National Museum of Racing at Saratoga Springs, New York recognized the talent of Carroll Shilling and inducted him in their Racing and Hall of Fame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Garrison

Garrison was so well-known for this that a contest where the winner pulls ahead at the last moment to score the victory is known as a Garrison finish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Sande

[Greyfox]

George Wolfe NEVER lost a photo finish in a stakes race. That has nothing to do with pure strength but is perfect timing.

NO one has ever shown the patience and as coaxing a ride as the Shoe. no one period.

.

So a great jockey does more than just sit in the saddle and go along for the ride. He has to have patience and timing. Right?

[46zilzal]

So a great jockey does more than just sit in the saddle and go along for the ride. He has to have patience and timing. Right?
when the animal beneath him is competitive, the best of the best can garner that tiny bit of extra to keep it running to the level it is capable of but not much more.

Old sayings stay around for a reason and we all know that "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

[Jeremy Jet]

If the riders of today are even 1% stronger than their counterparts from the 1950s, that could be worth everything. We need to constantly keep in mind that many horse races are won or lost by hundredths of seconds.

Sorry, but that is utter nonsense. Joackeys, in case you haven't noticed, are totally unique athletes. They don't fight for rebounds, hit or throw balls, etc. They guide 1,000 pound animals around a track. They do not, and cannot force a racehorse to run faster than that which it is capable. Might a stronger rider have an advantage over a weaker one in a photo finish? Sure, but even that isn't guaranteed, as the decisions made earlier in the race are often far more important than the final thrusts to the wire.

If you don't think that the great finesse riders of the past would be successful today, then you must not understand the relative importance of variables other than strength.

[Stillriledup]

Sorry, but that is utter nonsense. Joackeys, in case you haven't noticed, are totally unique athletes. They don't fight for rebounds, hit or throw balls, etc. They guide 1,000 pound animals around a track. They do not, and cannot force a racehorse to run faster than that which it is capable. Might a stronger rider have an advantage over a weaker one in a photo finish? Sure, but even that isn't guaranteed, as the decisions made earlier in the race are often far more important than the final thrusts to the wire.

If you don't think that the great finesse riders of the past would be successful today, then you must not understand the relative importance of variables other than strength.

There's a lot of variables. And yes, they can and do make horses run much faster. The difference between Joy Scott and Ramon Dominguez is at least 5 lengths at a mile. Its one full second from a below average rider and an elite rider. At least 1 second imo. And, in horse racing, one second is a light year.

[only11]

Not in my top 3, no......In fact as good of a rider as he obviously was, I think he was overrated a bit..........I never saw him as one of the best of all time.......;)

Boomer
Boom always had in horse in a position to win..

[46zilzal]

There's a lot of variables. And yes, they can and do make horses run much faster. The difference between Joy Scott and Ramon Dominguez is at least 5 lengths at a mile. Its one full second from a below average rider and an elite rider. At least 1 second imo. And, in horse racing, one second is a light year.
No rider can make a horse run faster than it is capable as much as that fantasyland belief hangs around with the ignorant.

One race will be determined at the 2nd call, another after drafting and rating etc. NO scenario is the same as it is determined by the pace mixture that is projected.

I cash all the time when the crowd mentality jumps all over the rider rather than the runner.

The form cycle of a horse is commonly aligned with a positive jockey switch which leaves the impression of cause and effect but it is simply the horse, not the rider that is doing the running

[Stillriledup]

No rider can make a horse run faster than it is capable as much as that fantasyland belief hangs around with the ignorant.

One race will be determined at the 2nd call, another after drafting and rating etc. NO scenario is the same as it is determined by the pace mixture that is projected.

I cash all the time when the crowd mentality jumps all over the rider rather than the runner.

The form cycle of a horse is commonly aligned with a positive jockey switch which leaves the impression of cause and effect but it is simply the horse, not the rider that is doing the running

This why racing is the greatest game on earth. I too take advantage of mistakes the public makes both ways. I take advantage of the crowd when they overbet the human connections and i take advantage of them the opposite way too when they make a mistake thinking a rider doesn't mean as much as it really does. More than one way to skin a cat.

Like i said, greatest game on earth.

[only11]

Come on NO rider alive was stronger than Laffit Pincay Jr.


NONE of them and very few as fearless

George Wolfe NEVER lost a photo finish in a stakes race. That has nothing to do with pure strength but is perfect timing.

NO one has ever shown the patience and as coaxing a ride as the Shoe. no one period.

Todhunter Sloan and Carroll Shilling re wrote the record books in their day.

You really need to get a book and read about this sport and it's history as greatness is not limited to the last 20 years.
Eddie D MAy have been stronger then Pincay....

[boomman]

Boom always had in horse in a position to win..

only: I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, although late in his career he and his agent hand picked and chose low-odds horses that certainly put him in a better position to win. If you want to talk about someone that always had his horses in position to win, how about Pat Day? Most riders would LOVE to win A riding title @ Churchill Downs. Pat won 34 of 'em!!!!;)

Boomer

[only11]

only: I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, although late in his career he and his agent hand picked and chose low-odds horses that certainly put him in a better position to win. If you want to talk about someone that always had his horses in position to win, how about Pat Day? Most riders would LOVE to win A riding title @ Churchill Downs. Pat won 34 of 'em!!!!;)

Boomer
Boom would you say Eddie D makes your top ten?

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'll take Antley over Day or Stevens (yes, I AM serious, laf) ... you get credit for one out of three; can't argue with Laffit... :p

[aaron]

I'd take many riders over Day. I saw him lose too many races with his waiting style. A good rider,but in my opinion not great. I'd take Bailey over Day anytime. He was never a dominant rider against the best NY riders. For me, Cordero was the best.

[46zilzal]

McCarron one year broke his leg badly and was a commentator for a spell.
I recall they asked him how much an effect a rider had on a horse and he was quite honest in saying :`We can only make a horse reach his potential by keeping him out of the unexpected trouble that develops in a race. We cannot make a horse better than the horse is.``

[Stillriledup]

McCarron one year broke his leg badly and was a commentator for a spell.
I recall they asked him how much an effect a rider had on a horse and he was quite honest in saying :`We can only make a horse reach his potential by keeping him out of the unexpected trouble that develops in a race. We cannot make a horse better than the horse is.``

Never listen to riders when they talk about how much a difference a horse makes. They have a political reason to downplay their talents, its called modesty. It would be career suicide if a jock said 'im better than other jocks, i make em run faster, etc"

Jocks are trained to give credit to everyone else, jocks are constantly thanking trainers and owners for giving them a shot. No way a jock is going to throw his fellow riders under the bus and say that some guys make em run faster than others.

[46zilzal]

Never listen to riders when they talk about how much a difference a horse makes. They have a political reason to downplay their talents, its called modesty. It would be career suicide if a jock said 'im better than other jocks, i make em run faster, etc"

Jocks are trained to give credit to everyone else, jocks are constantly thanking trainers and owners for giving them a shot. No way a jock is going to throw his fellow riders under the bus and say that some guys make em run faster than others.
They know, more than anyone else, how much their efforts can or cannot make a difference.

But I suppose even coming directly from one of them is still not reason enough to believe his perspective

[Greyfox]

A horse cannot run faster than its ability.
A good rider - hands, timing, balance, - can allow the horse to run to it's ability.
A poor rider- can withdraw energy from a horse via hands, timing, balance and inability to spot chances to fire.
The poster that said earlier that top rider X would ride the same horse 5 lengths faster over a mile distance at the end than rider Y, with both doing their best was close to the truth.
My guess would be closer to 3.

[Robert Goren]

So, you're saying that riders in general haven't improved at all in the last 30 years?I won't speak for him, but as for myself, I would say on a whole they gotten worse. JMO

[boomman]

Boom would you say Eddie D makes your top ten?

only: Yes! Let me see if I can compile My "top ten" list (with apologies to David Letterman) since my introduction to horse racing in the mid 1970's:

1) Laffit Pincay, Jr.
2) Gary Stevens (pre knee injury)
3) Pat Day
4) Bill Shoemaker
5) Angel Cordero, Jr.
6) Steve Cauthen
7) Larry Snyder
8) Eddie "D"
9) Chris McCarron
10) tie: Patrick Valenzuela (in his prime, pre suspensions)
Jerry Bailey


Best riders today:

Dominguez
Bejarano
Borel

Boomer

[Stillriledup]

I won't speak for him, but as for myself, I would say on a whole they gotten worse. JMO

There's just more scrutiny on today's jocks with all the blogs, message boards and whatnut. Maybe they've gotten worse from a tactical standpoint, but i think they make more speed, they make them run faster.

[Greyfox]

Best riders today:

Dominguez
Bejarano
Borel

Boomer

Bejarano, :ThmbUp:

[Trotman]

No arguments with most of the riders mentioned they are the cream of the crop, interesting no mention of Sandy Hawley he rode against most of them and Pincay,Shoe,Day
and McCarron all admited that he was one of the best they
have ever ridden against.

[gales0678]

1/38 in tc and bc races - ramon is going to have to do better on racing's biggest days to become a great

[Fager Fan]

I'm surprised by the high rankings of Stevens by some. I think he's soundly in the second tier of best jockeys.

If you polled jockeys, they'd probably rank Angel as the best of all-time.

The best jockey of recent has to be Bailey. He wasn't the most gifted rider, but he was the smartest rider.

[Marshall Bennett]

Rajiv Maragh may be as good as anyone riding right now .

[gales0678]

that's becuase he listens to what they want him to do (most of the time)

[46zilzal]

Rajiv Maragh may be as good as anyone riding right now .
a very good one with a solid future

[Robert Fischer]

Think about it this way. Think about who Ramon Dominguez's competition is? Its many guys who are similar to him, young, incredibly athletic, shredded little bodybuilders with incredible strength......who was Eddie Arcaro riding against? This is the same argument that works in all sports also. Look at baseball. People say Babe Ruth was the greatest player, but who was he hitting all those homeruns off of? He wasn't hitting homers off Mariano Rivera, Tim Lincecum, Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay, he was hitting them off John Doe and Joe Blow for the most part. Also, Babe Ruth was hitting homeruns off white guys, he didnt' have to face latin, asian or black pitchers and he didn't have to face relief specialists who came in to mix and match in the 8th and 9th innings. Ruth faces a bunch of out of shape white guys who worked in the offseason pumping gas and waiting tables at restaurants to make a few extra bucks. The pitchers Ruth faced, for the most part, weren't nearly as good as the pitchers Albert Pujols and Alex Rodriguez face in today's game.
This opinion that baseball has "evolved" into something many times greater since the 1920s is pretty much accepted as fact.

In measures of pure physical performance, like a 100meter sprint, or velocity of a fastball etc., performance has clearly increased since the 1920s. However, baseball, (like riding horses) has many elements which resemble a skilled trade. Where the physical performance is channeled through mastery of technique and application of strategy.

IMO things like baseball or jockeys depend on evolving of both physical performance, and a mastery of the skilled trade elements in order to reach a higher competitive level.

I don't know the history of these jockeys, but I can tell you that in baseball the skilled trade elements have not improved, or even maintained homogeneously. Meaning specific players will demonstrate perfection of the trade e.g. Barry Bond's selectivity at the plate, Greg Maddox during his command of ball movement,control and pitching strategy, Ichiro and his technical mastery etc... -

- However there are also 30 teams compared to 16 to fill roster spots, a loss of the mastery of local skilled trade players and that whole culture, a talent pool shift to Latin countries for some semblance of developed skilled trade players, and an increased signing of "athletes" with great fastballs or 60yard dash times that can be taught the game "on the fly".

I can't tell you who would win between the 1927 Yankees and the 2009 Yankees in a 7 game series. I just don't see it as the David vs. Goliath that many sportswriters and fans today do.

Ramon Dominguez has never struck me as extremely dominant physically or athletically. As far as his competition, I don't know if they are superior physically and technically to past eras.

[46zilzal]

1/38 in tc and bc races - ramon is going to have to do better on racing's biggest days to become a great
His mounts have that record.

How many wins do Pincay and Day have in the Derby.... The horses run the riders ride

[Stillriledup]

This opinion that baseball has "evolved" into something many times greater since the 1920s is pretty much accepted as fact.

In measures of pure physical performance, like a 100meter sprint, or velocity of a fastball etc., performance has clearly increased since the 1920s. However, baseball, (like riding horses) has many elements which resemble a skilled trade. Where the physical performance is channeled through mastery of technique and application of strategy.

IMO things like baseball or jockeys depend on evolving of both physical performance, and a mastery of the skilled trade elements in order to reach a higher competitive level.

I don't know the history of these jockeys, but I can tell you that in baseball the skilled trade elements have not improved, or even maintained homogeneously. Meaning specific players will demonstrate perfection of the trade e.g. Barry Bond's selectivity at the plate, Greg Maddox during his command of ball movement,control and pitching strategy, Ichiro and his technical mastery etc... -

- However there are also 30 teams compared to 16 to fill roster spots, a loss of the mastery of local skilled trade players and that whole culture, a talent pool shift to Latin countries for some semblance of developed skilled trade players, and an increased signing of "athletes" with great fastballs or 60yard dash times that can be taught the game "on the fly".

I can't tell you who would win between the 1927 Yankees and the 2009 Yankees in a 7 game series. I just don't see it as the David vs. Goliath that many sportswriters and fans today do.

Ramon Dominguez has never struck me as extremely dominant physically or athletically. As far as his competition, I don't know if they are superior physically and technically to past eras.


Great post RF, i get exactly what you are saying.

I think the skilled trade argument in baseball needs to factor in the actual velocity of the pitches that are thrown. There are guys today throwing pitches in the upper 80s that have tremendous movement. A pitcher is probably not going to be good enough to pitch at the major league level unless he has a fastball that touches off 90....or, his name is Tim Wakefield.

The size and the strength of the athletes is much greater, i don't even know if baseball players lifted weights back in the day.

Also, another factor that has enhanced sports in the last 70 years is that parents of young children have incentive to get their kids into sports at an early age and push them. Most of the players from the Ruth era didn't have this kind of start. Now, we're selecting the best baseball players from many different countries, there are millions and millions of more potential athletes in the pool to choose from. Ruth and his teammates and rivals were selected from a small pool of white americans who just used baseball as a way to make a living financially. Now, we have many more incentives to become a pro athlete and parents are pushing hard. Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters in tennis started playing at an extremely young age and had parents cracking the whip hard for them to be great.

The skilled trade of riding racehorses has also changed. I'm not sure if the change is dramatic, but i'm thinking it is. If you watch video tape of jockeys in the 1950s, you'll see their 'form' is not like the form of today's rider. Those riders seemed to not be 'sitting' on the horse as aerodynamically as the guys of today. They also 'swung' their legs in the stirrups, today, guys don't do that at all. Is today the better way to make a horse go faster? I think that there is a lot of proof that suggests it is. If a jockey can sit perfectly still on the horse and guide that runner with his soft hands, i have to imagine that the horse will be able to run in a very controlled and efficient manner, as opposed to a rider swinging his legs like a pendulum.

[46zilzal]

How many times does it take for one to understand that being a classically good rider is a hell of a lot MORE than physicality and, given the updates in equipment and changes, the riders of yesteryear considered GREAT would fit right in today just as well.

There are many many strong riders who just cannot break into elite status since they do not have the subtle pace sensing abilities, positioning, interactions with the animals.

I have watched many times at the gate one of our leading riders taking that extra time to calm his mount and he is one of the first to call the vet over it he thinks there is any problems at all.. Those intangibles have noting to do with strength.

[GaryG]

Shoemaker had the touch and would be doing just as well today. Ever heard of Olden Times?

[46zilzal]

Shoemaker had the touch and would be doing just as well today. Ever heard of Olden Times?
The very best example of that ability coaxing along that distance limited horse to a fantastic win ...Saw that one on KNX TV, channel 2, Los Angeles, with Gil Stratton

[Saratoga_Mike]

Ramon is certainly talented (and his work ethic is second to none), but the best jockey ever? Bailey was better for starters. It's just too early to make this proclamation. Now if the thread were titled "Is Steve Rushing the Best Jock's Agent Ever?," that would be a close call.

[Robert Fischer]

I think the skilled trade argument in baseball needs to factor in the actual velocity of the pitches that are thrown. There are guys today throwing pitches in the upper 80s that have tremendous movement. A pitcher is probably not going to be good enough to pitch at the major league level unless he has a fastball that touches off 90....or, his name is Tim Wakefield.

The size and the strength of the athletes is much greater, i don't even know if baseball players lifted weights back in the day.

Also, another factor that has enhanced sports in the last 70 years is that parents of young children have incentive to get their kids into sports at an early age and push them. Most of the players from the Ruth era didn't have this kind of start. Now, we're selecting the best baseball players from many different countries, there are millions and millions of more potential athletes in the pool to choose from. Ruth and his teammates and rivals were selected from a small pool of white americans who just used baseball as a way to make a living financially. Now, we have many more incentives to become a pro athlete and parents are pushing hard. Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters in tennis started playing at an extremely young age and had parents cracking the whip hard for them to be great.

The skilled trade of riding racehorses has also changed. I'm not sure if the change is dramatic, but i'm thinking it is. If you watch video tape of jockeys in the 1950s, you'll see their 'form' is not like the form of today's rider. Those riders seemed to not be 'sitting' on the horse as aerodynamically as the guys of today. They also 'swung' their legs in the stirrups, today, guys don't do that at all. Is today the better way to make a horse go faster? I think that there is a lot of proof that suggests it is. If a jockey can sit perfectly still on the horse and guide that runner with his soft hands, i have to imagine that the horse will be able to run in a very controlled and efficient manner, as opposed to a rider swinging his legs like a pendulum.

good points

[Stillriledup]

Shoemaker had the touch and would be doing just as well today. Ever heard of Olden Times?


I believe this to be true. The very elite riders would step in and be much better than most of the jocks today. The ultimate question is this. Would Shoemaker be as dominant as Dominguez, or would he be a middle of the road guy who hit the top 10 in the standings at major tracks, but nothing more than that.

[maiom01]

Dominguez is 1 for 22 after the 6th race at Gulfstream today since leaving New York..Maybe he can turn it all around with a couple wins late in the card or at least a win with First Dude in the Florida Derby..I sure won't be betting him..

[Robert Fischer]

Dominguez is 1 for 22 after the 6th race at Gulfstream today since leaving New York..Maybe he can turn it all around with a couple wins late in the card or at least a win with First Dude in the Florida Derby..I sure won't be betting him..

Is First Dude a late morning line Fav. on the "dominguezhaterz" official track program?
It would be a big upset if First Dude wins the Florida Derby.

[Run Nicholas Run]

Ramon is a superstar and a natural talent.
Back in 2000 @ laurel Ramon won with Finesterrie Rock
going six furlongs , he came up the rail for the win.
Oh by the way , Rock had post 14 that day and paid $30 plus!

[Run Nicholas Run]

only: I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, although late in his career he and his agent hand picked and chose low-odds horses that certainly put him in a better position to win. If you want to talk about someone that always had his horses in position to win, how about Pat Day? Most riders would LOVE to win A riding title @ Churchill Downs. Pat won 34 of 'em!!!!;)

Boomer


Pat Day the HUMAN ANCHOR!

[boomman]

Pat Day the HUMAN ANCHOR!


Uhhhh NO, this Pat Day: The Pat Day that is one of the most compassionate HUMAN beings ever, and was a GREAT rider and IS a true Ambassador of Racing (which continues in his retirement).............

That Pat Day!;)

Boomer

[Stillriledup]

Uhhhh NO, this Pat Day: The Pat Day that is one of the most compassionate HUMAN beings ever, and was a GREAT rider and IS a true Ambassador of Racing (which continues in his retirement).............

That Pat Day!;)

Boomer

I love Pat Day. I saw him walking in the parking lot many years ago at Gulfstream after the races and i went up to him and asked him about a horse who, at the time, was a derby prospect in my opinion. It was a horse he was riding who was under the radar, and i said i think he might be a derby horse. Pat gave me the time of day, he was very nice to me and friendly. I dont remember the horse or even what he said, i just remember that he didn't blow me off.

[illinoisbred]

Considering the fact that Pat Day rode many years at Arlington, I had alot of opportunities to observe him and occasionally talk to him. Boomman is correct- there's no better ambassador for the game than Day. He was a true gentleman that answered any question and acknowledged any hello or comment with grace. As far as being a human anchor, he won on a lot of horses other guys would have burned up early.

[46zilzal]

I met Pat Day on a sleepy Wednesday in November at Churchill and he was most generous with his time and signed a photo I took of him on Wild Again in the inaugural BC Classic.....Class act.

[Tom]

I thought jockeys were just passengers?

[chickenhead]

I've got a picture of me with Pat Day somewhere, its pretty cool. I'm 6'5", he's a munchkin. Nice guy.

[boomman]

I've got a picture of me with Pat Day somewhere, its pretty cool. I'm 6'5", he's a munchkin. Nice guy.

As do I with him and I standing outside the announcer booth at Yavapai Downs. And by the way, I'm 6'4" so the pic probably looks similar to yours........;)

Boomer

[Stillriledup]

Thank You Ramon, made a large score keying First Dude in the exotics. WTG my man!

[Robert Fischer]

Thank You Ramon, made a large score keying First Dude in the exotics. WTG my man!

while we're patting our own backs

...
Rule may have even been best - yes he slightly weakened although running about as well as the top 2 overall, and then First Dude - the allowance horse who a cynic would say does enough things right and is fundamentally strong enough that with a "move-up" performance enhancing trainer, he could have generated more excitement this year..

Borel

sure isn't in the Best Ever conversation, but you have to give the man credit for being a big game monster in the past several years.

He helps sharpen street sense and beats a better Hard Spun in one of the few trips that didn't go to hell for HS in his prime. Spun runs a faster final quarter than his previous and Borel skims the rail and beats him with Street Sense.
A hell of a class animal, but you have to appreciate the ride.

I don't think people understand how much Borel put into that horse. He pulled off that crap in the Juvenile. and then all the know it all start raving about the "rail was golden that day".
Shit if you don't do any running and everyone else runs a completely different race with a hard pace, and you sweep up along the rail and save all the ground you SHOULD have a lot of horse.

Borel on Mine That Bird kind of took away from the Street sense legacy a little. It had to. He did for me. I look back on the events in a different perspective now. MTB certainly was not a standout horse. Probably in the top 10 of that derby field. Borel got on that horse in the morning too.

And then you see the job borel did with Rachel. Borel is probably the best at getting on a decent horse in the morning and waking them up. You don't see anyone, maybe valdivia on a rare occasion, who can move put some electricity into a horse like that in the am.

and he's clearly not as good as Ramon, but he almost makes you think if we're evaluating things correctly.

also
I AM KING OF THE WORLD:lol::lol::lol:

[Stillriledup]

while we're patting our own backs





also
I AM KING OF THE WORLD:lol::lol::lol:


R FISH!! :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

How many has he won today?

:eek:

[Zippy Chippy]

That makes it a 6 pack

[Stillriledup]

That makes it a 6 pack

I'm no math wiz, but i counted 6 also. ;)

[Rise Over Run]

I'm no math wiz, but i counted 6 also. ;)

Wow. Talk about a blast from the past. No posts in over 10 months. I figured you were dead; or in jail.

[tzipi]

Ramon kicks butt. Riding great! Guy knows how to break down a race and put his horse in the best position.

[Mr G]

Rember when Ramon suffered a separated collarbone earlier this year in March?


When he came back some were concered about him as he went 0-25 or maybe it was more ....just couldn't bring home a winner..

And look at him today...riding with all the confidence in the world...after watching him after one of his wins this afternoon I actually thought to myself "He has such a confident look on his face....a look like he owns Saratoga"

Hell in the late Pick 4 this afternoon it went

Ramon $6.80
Ramon $6.90
Rosie $5.60
Ramon $8.20

And that resulted in the $1.00 Pick 4 paying a very generous $340.00

[ten2oneormore]

Best jock in the states.

Now if only we could get a colony of Dominguez,Castellano,Soumillion,Lemaire,R Hughes,R Moore,Dettori,De Souza
we could settle the best jock in the world discussion.

[Rise Over Run]

Wow. How in the world did Ramon stay in the saddle on Saratoga Snacks in the 8th today?

[camourous]

If Dominguez was so great he'd have more memorable rides, his 2 most memorable rides are when he interfered with about 4 horse in the BC Turf on Better Talk Now and somehow stayed up and his ultra careless ride on Scrappy T in the Preakness. He the same as the rest of those "athletes" in that crooked game

[Stillriledup]

If Dominguez was so great he'd have more memorable rides, his 2 most memorable rides are when he interfered with about 4 horse in the BC Turf on Better Talk Now and somehow stayed up and his ultra careless ride on Scrappy T in the Preakness. He the same as the rest of those "athletes" in that crooked game

Very few jocks at this high of a level ride every cheap claimer and overnight race the same way. We all know of quite a few 'hall of famers' who are older and 'mail in' overnight races quite often. This guy doesnt seem to mail anything in.

As far as 'memorable' rides go, i'll be willing to bet that anyone who hit the pick 6 today will never forget his ride on Saratoga Snacks in the 8th race.

[DigitalDownsJoe]

Jerry Bailey HAS to be considered in the top 3 IMO

[Dahoss9698]

If Dominguez was so great he'd have more memorable rides, his 2 most memorable rides are when he interfered with about 4 horse in the BC Turf on Better Talk Now and somehow stayed up and his ultra careless ride on Scrappy T in the Preakness. He the same as the rest of those "athletes" in that crooked game

So true. Who cares about a guy showing up everyday and being the best at his profession? What an overrated quality. :rolleyes:

On another note, I can't wait to sign up for the ADW you're pimping in your signature. The way you describe the sport as a "crooked game" has me pretty excited to deposit some money there. :ThmbUp:

[horses4courses]

I'm sorry, but threads like this are such a joke.

Apples to oranges....... all so subjective.
Getting some 80 year old's heart racing who saw Arcaro, Longden, or Cordero, at their best. Who knows? Who cares?

Of course, Ramon Dominguez is an excellent rider near the top of his game.
Just leave it at that.

[Stillriledup]

I'm sorry, but threads like this are such a joke.

Apples to oranges....... all so subjective.
Getting some 80 year old's heart racing who saw Arcaro, Longden, or Cordero, at their best. Who knows? Who cares?

Of course, Ramon Dominguez is an excellent rider near the top of his game.
Just leave it at that.

Best Eva.

[lamboguy]

Jerry Bailey HAS to be considered in the top 3 IMO
what about Lafit Pincay, Angel Cordero, Eddie Arcaro, Willie Shoemaker, and probably more that i don't know.

[mannyberrios]

what about Lafit Pincay, Angel Cordero, Eddie Arcaro, Willie Shoemaker, and probably more that i don't know. :1: All of em are the best!

[Hosshead]

I recall the day his head was crushed in the gate at Anita and then brother Robert was killed not long after. Laffit often mentions what a good rider he thought Pineda was.

I was there that day (on the grandstand apron) when that happened. Terrible.
A day you never forget.
And the beginning of padded starting gates.

Dominguez is an excellent rider, even great.

But Best Ever? Not quite.

Best - Laffit. ...Strongest - Laffit ... Most Disciplined - Laffit ...
Always knew exactly how much horse he had left - Laffit

Even Shoe (talking about other riders) said that Pincay was the best he had ever seen.

Remember, Laffit was in a jockey colony that included Shoe, Stevens, McCarron, Eddie D., P. Val, Darrel McHargue, Sandy Hawley etc. and rode across the country against Pat Day, Bailey, and Cordero (who couldn't make it in S. Calif. as was the case with Baze).

So yes, there are some excellent riders like Ramon, but they don't have nearly the competition of Laffit.
And how many races would Ramon win if going up against that high skill level ?
Some, but not nearly as many.

[Tom]

As much as I think Ramon is a great jockey, I also lived through the Cordero days. You don't soon forget what that guy did. Why do I need to say one is better than the other?

[Stillriledup]

As much as I think Ramon is a great jockey, I also lived through the Cordero days. You don't soon forget what that guy did. Why do I need to say one is better than the other?

Whenever there is a thread about someone being the 'best ever' that is currently competing, it usually brings out the 'are you kidding' responses from many people who grew up idolizing someone back 'in the day'.

If we ask ourselves "is there any athlete in any sport who's the 'best ever' who is currently active, most people seem to gravitate towards the athlete who's career is complete. Many people don't seem to be able to award the 'best ever' title to someone who's till 'playing the game'.

You could make a strong case that the best tennis player, best golfer, best track and field star are still active.

But, many people have decided that THEIR 'best ever' cant possibly be someone who's career isnt complete....even though over the last 20 or 30 years, athletes have gotten much better, bigger, stronger, faster, etc.

If you buy into the theory that athletes of today are far superior to athletes of even 30 years ago (NFL quarterbacks are bigger than D Lineman and some CB's are bigger than the linebacker and D Lineman of yesteryear) and bigger = Better in the NFL (for the most part). So, can you really think that the greatest D lineman (for example) is someone who played in 1980 or 1990? No, its probably someone today who's pushing 400.

Its perfectly fine to say "i need to see someone's entire career before annointing them the best ever" but if you make the case that jockeys are as good as they've ever been "from a making speed standpoint and not necessarily from a mental decision standpoint" and RAD is the best of the best, you can certainly make a case that he's better than jocks who rode in 1950 just from a 'form' standpoint. On tape, if you watch jocks from back in the day, these guys didnt look nearly as 'aerodynamic' on a horse and their 'seat' wasnt nearly as polished. Does that mean those jocks, as they were, would be able to compete in today's game? Highly doubtful. Unless they changed how they rode in accordance with the times...but, since we can't assume that and we can only go on what we saw on tape, its hard to think jocks from the glory days of racing would ever hold a candle to today's elite jocks.

[Itamaraca]

Vintage Wrong Lead Ramon in today's last. He does a lot of things right but he just can't keep horses together/on the right lead under pressure.

[castaway01]

Vintage Wrong Lead Ramon in today's last. He does a lot of things right but he just can't keep horses together/on the right lead under pressure.

Yeah, what a bum.

[PaceAdvantage]

Vintage Wrong Lead Ramon in today's last. He does a lot of things right but he just can't keep horses together/on the right lead under pressure.It couldn't possibly be the horse has issues in that area, or the trainer can't find a way to train the horse to do what he's supposed to do regarding lead changes...

It's gotta be the jock...in fact, it's always the jock with you, isn't it?

[Rise Over Run]

Vintage Wrong Lead Ramon in today's last. He does a lot of things right but he just can't keep horses together/on the right lead under pressure.
Correct lead, wrong lead, jet engine attached...; it really didn't matter as Ascended Fever was going to go past With Honorandgrace and Pie's First Lady to win the nitecap.

Now in the 8th race, the ride by Ramon was 100% the reason that Gallant Fields won the race. Took advantage of a race devoid of early pace and sent a horse to the front that didn't show being on the lead in any of the last 10 on the PPs, and won rather easily.

[Dahoss9698]

I'll have to watch the last again to see if he did anything wrong...but I thought his ride in the first today was subpar. I despise that premature move.

[Stillriledup]

Congrats RAD on an incredible 2012, just piling up wins and money, marching to the top of the money board in leaps and bounds, currently 14th on the all time money won list.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I expect good jocks to win on good horse,but this year I saw him put enough horses that looked off form and/or read the probable pace so well in the winner's circle that I am certain of his greatness.Flawless?Hell no.But great jock.Have him and Havre de Grace as my background,pic from Bloodhorse.Seeing the level of adrenalin flowing through both just fires me up!

[mannyberrios]

RAD is indeed GREAT,

[turninforhome10]

Correct lead, wrong lead, jet engine attached...; it really didn't matter as Ascended Fever was going to go past With Honorandgrace and Pie's First Lady to win the nitecap.

Now in the 8th race, the ride by Ramon was 100% the reason that Gallant Fields won the race. Took advantage of a race devoid of early pace and sent a horse to the front that didn't show being on the lead in any of the last 10 on the PPs, and won rather easily.
Bump The RAD MAN IS ON FIRE Same exact scenario just a few months later with the exact same horse in the 7th at AQ

4 in row

[westny]

RAD is indeed GREAT,


But,..he is not JB... yet :cool:

[Vinnie]

Whether I am watching on the PC or TVG, I constantly say to my wife there goes Ramon again. He's got Duende, Panache.... :) Call it what you will. He is a Beast, and from what TLG says he is one hard working dude...

I wish him nothing but the Very Best. He is indeed "something else". He is the BEST that I have seen, not trying to take away from any other of the great ones of course.

Happy New Year Everyone.

[Stillriledup]

RAD got me all day today.....couldnt make enough speed in races 8, 7, 6, or 5 but when i bet against him in the finale and in race 2, he figured out a way to win. Thanks Ramon, when i zigged, you zagged.

[turninforhome10]

RAD got me all day today.....couldnt make enough speed in races 8, 7, 6, or 5 but when i bet against him in the finale and in race 2, he figured out a way to win. Thanks Ramon, when i zigged, you zagged.
It is disheartening when your 9-1 shot is bobbling with him at the wire. "Ramon by a nose"

[Stillriledup]

It is disheartening when your 9-1 shot is bobbling with him at the wire. "Ramon by a nose"

I hear you. I needed him to win the 5th race for a HUGE score in a pick 3, i sniffed out the 28-1 in the previous leg (strangled while full of run on video in previous race) and set up for a big hit, i figured Prado to RAD was a 'move up' but the horse got loose and had no guts losing to a slop who couldnt switch leads. Than, i hated the chalk in the 8th race and Ramon was my pick and he couldnt get the horse to move forward at all despite looking pretty nice in her maiden win on tape.

RAD dumped a TON of chalk today, in fact, he might have been favored in 7 or 8 out of 9...public loves their Ramon!

[PhantomOnTour]

It's funny...when he rode in Maryland (with a few cameos at Bel and Sar) i was dying for him to move to NY full time.
Caught some very nice prices when he first got there...now i kinda wish he would leave :D

[mannyberrios]

Today, The Ortiz brothers were the best

[Stillriledup]

Oh gosh, Ramon went down hard in the 7th at AQU. He was in between horses on the far turn and i think his mount clipped heels. Holding my breath he's ok.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Oh gosh, Ramon went down hard in the 7th at AQU. He was in between horses on the far turn and i think his mount clipped heels. Holding my breath he's ok.

Was he on the 3 horse?I didn't see it clearly.

[Stillriledup]

Was he on the 3 horse?I didn't see it clearly.

yeah, at least his name was listed in DRF, if there was a late change to someone else, i didnt notice it.

[tzipi]

Andy tweeted that Ramon was conscious and moving his fingers and toes when being loaded into the ambulance. So a good sign. Hopefully he's ok :ThmbUp:

[ten2oneormore]

Just heard he has a fractured skull.That's horrible if true.

[RXB]

Just heard he has a fractured skull.That's horrible if true.

They're still describing his condition as stable so at least that's one good sign. Hopefully he will recover well and quickly.

[shouldacoulda]

Get well Ramon. Hope you have a speedy recovery.

[FrankieFigs]

More info here on Ramon's condition:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/75675/dominguez-fractures-skull-in-spill

Not trying to hijack thread, but Kevin Krigger took a bad spill at SA today too....

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/75678/jockey-krigger-injured-at-santa-anita

[mannyberrios]

Get well soon, Ramon

[precocity]

god speed ramon.

[Shelby]

Hurry up and heal, Ramon! Sounds like you're doing better :)


Kenny McPeek ‏@KennyMcPeek
“@jeanninee12: This just in from Sharon Dominguez, Ramon's wife: He's doing well, resting now, & expected to make a full recovery.

Dominguez' agent, Steve Rushing, told NYRA press staff that rider has slightly displaced skull fracture. Ramon is alert and stable. 1/2.

[so.cal.fan]

Frankie Figgs,
Kevin took a tumble, in a nasty spill at S.A. he rolled over and over, when the horse Garrett Gomez was on clipped him.....winning horse was taken down and placed last. Gomez is likely to get 10 days suspension.
Krigger appeared not badly injured, but when he came to, he asked what had happened....he has a concussion and will likely be out several days.
Krigger's horse was not injured.

[iceknight]

Hurry up and heal, Ramon! Sounds like you're doing better :)


Kenny McPeek ‏@KennyMcPeek
“@jeanninee12: This just in from Sharon Dominguez, Ramon's wife: He's doing well, resting now, & expected to make a full recovery.

Dominguez' agent, Steve Rushing, told NYRA press staff that rider has slightly displaced skull fracture. Ramon is alert and stable. 1/2. thanks! Was about to post the same: https://twitter.com/jeanninee12/status/292650826407763969 :) Prayers and thoughts with RaD

[so.cal.fan]

This is very good news for Ramon. Thank God he will be okay.

[Al Gobbi]

Frankie Figgs,
Kevin took a tumble, in a nasty spill at S.A. he rolled over and over, when the horse Garrett Gomez was on clipped him.....winning horse was taken down and placed last. Gomez is likely to get 10 days suspension.
Krigger appeared not badly injured, but when he came to, he asked what had happened....he has a concussion and will likely be out several days.
Krigger's horse was not injured.


Turns out the stewards gave Gomez a total of 0 days, and blamed the accident on Krigger.

[Stillriledup]

Turns out the stewards gave Gomez a total of 0 days, and blamed the accident on Krigger.

I needed a double DQ there as it appared J Lep 'came in' as Gomez came out and squeezed Krigger. They never showed the head on of the DQ so i dont know if i was 'robbed' or not.

[Show Me the Wire]

Another stellar job by the SoCal stewards. :bang:

[madera12227]

Wow 0 days. But the stewarts quickly D.Q. Gomez. If you remember Gomez was the betting favor, and it was the first race of the late pick four. I hope that is not the reason why the D.Q. him. So all the fans betting on the favor loose?

[horses4courses]

Ramon D. is back home and on the mend...... :ThmbUp:

http://www.drf.com/news/dominguez-released-rehabilitation-center-discusses-his-future-plans

[Robert Fischer]

Ramon D. is back home and on the mend...... :ThmbUp:

http://www.drf.com/news/dominguez-released-rehabilitation-center-discusses-his-future-plans

great news.

Regardless of how positive every bit of press has been, Ramon has had a tough road and has a tough road ahead. It sounds like he is on the path to regaining his health and will make a comeback.

[Shelby]

Glad to read this!

[Robert Fischer]

New Ramon Dominguez interview (post accident) up on youtube / NYRA youtube.

haven't had time to watch it yet.

8z6eSOdC6hg

[Stillriledup]

Get well soon Ramon! :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

Bump.....

Why couldn't he take 1/18/13 off???? I miss the feeling of KNOWING that my large investment was in the hands of a professional who was

1) super prepared
2) proactively forecasted many if-then scenarios
3) was just simply SMARTER than every single cell idiot out there
4) fully aware that he had the best hands in his industry

[Stillriledup]

Geez its been about 2 years since Ramon has ridden. One of the all time greats, he was just born to be a jock, very few have ever done it better.

He's not in the hall of fame yet, but i'm sure he belongs.

Hl7tNgX4zQk

[lamboguy]

great rider and very smart guy along with Rosie Napravnik for quitting while they are ahead. neither had bad habits and both have a life outside of riding horses

[Robert Fischer]

great rider and very smart guy along with Rosie Napravnik for quitting while they are ahead. neither had bad habits and both have a life outside of riding horses

Good post Lambo.

Still miss him.

[Robert Fischer]

Ramon is as good a rider as I have ever seen. The professionalism he brings every day is remarkable. It's funny, I'm watching the HBO show about Bird and Magic, and I feel like Ramon brings to his job what those two legends brought to their's. He rides the inner as well as any rider could and it doesn't matter the level of quality. Take a look at his ride in the 9th race last Thursday. It was a $16K maiden claiming race and his ride was as good a ride as any rider could have ever given any horse. Nobody, and I mean nobody, would have won with that horse besides Ramon. Take a look at his ride on Goldsville in Saturday's 5th race. First, he goes to the lead, and he gets it. Then, others go, so he takes back a little on the backstretch. Then things get a little tight and as they run for home he is totally packaged behind and between horses, but he doesn't check and lose ground, he holds steady and waits, and when the slightest seem opens he busts through. He doesn't panic when horses back up in his face and steady severely, and just smoothly gathers his horses in and waits with confidence. If his mounts are empty, so be it, but if not they get their best possible chances to win at as high a percentage as any rider I have ever seen.

As for comparisons, I've seen the great riders of the last 30 years, and there have been some extremely good ones. But, I also never watched them as closely, day to day, as I watch Ramon. So, from my perspective it's not fair to say which one is necessarily better than the others. Cordero, Bailey, Stevens, McCarron, Pincay....they were tremendous riders. But Ramon is as well and watching him every day, especially through the long winter on the inner, is a pleasure and a privilege..

[Grits]

Andy's writing, his description of Ramon's riding skill?

This belongs in a book.

Miss him on the track. Always will.

[Robert Fischer]

Andy's writing, his description of Ramon's riding skill?

This belongs in a book.

Miss him on the track. Always will.
It does, Grits. The best handicapper in New York describing the best jockey in New York.
Spooky how Andy so eloquently outlined Ramon's fearless approach.

[lamboguy]

he always came prepared for a race and if he needed to he improvised. Mike Smith doesn't have the same riding style but he doesn't make that many mistakes either in the last 5 years. we have had some great riders in this game and i always wondered why the game doesn't promote their star rider's as much as the horses. the riders career's are usually longer than the horses and people can relate to them more.

i am sure if people that were never interested in horse racing got to see and hear from Ramon Dominguez like in the above interview we would have more fans of the game.

you have to give Richard Migliore all the credit for a great interview, but i wish he had spoken to Ramon about riding horses before he unfortunately got hurt. a guy like Ramon may not come around for a long time.

[Robert Fischer]

he always came prepared for a race and if he needed to he improvised. Mike Smith doesn't have the same riding style but he doesn't make that many mistakes either in the last 5 years. we have had some great riders in this game and i always wondered why the game doesn't promote their star rider's as much as the horses. the riders career's are usually longer than the horses and people can relate to them more.

i am sure if people that were never interested in horse racing got to see and hear from Ramon Dominguez like in the above interview we would have more fans of the game.

you have to give Richard Migliore all the credit for a great interview, but i wish he had spoken to Ramon about riding horses before he unfortunately got hurt. a guy like Ramon may not come around for a long time.

You mention star riders, and you brought up Mike Smith specifically. Smith and John Velazquez come to mind as two guys who tend to combine skill, intelligence, preparation, experience and timing.

Who do you feel approach the level of quality and professionalism that Ramon Dominguez was known for?

[OTM Al]

great rider and very smart guy along with Rosie Napravnik for quitting while they are ahead. neither had bad habits and both have a life outside of riding horses

Sadly Ramon had no choice in the matter. Rosie will be back before we know it.

[aaron]

In my opinion,the 3 best riders I have seen ride the NYRA circuit are Cordero,Bailey and Dominguez. It is hard to pick one over the other. I would probably rank Dominguez 3rd,because he didn't last as long as the other two.I thought before he got injured,he had the potential to be #1.

[Saratoga_Mike]

In my opinion,the 3 best riders I have seen ride the NYRA circuit are Cordero,Bailey and Dominguez. It is hard to pick one over the other. I would probably rank Dominguez 3rd,because he didn't last as long as the other two.I thought before he got injured,he had the potential to be #1.

Not even close - Bailey in his prime was radically better than Ramon in his prime.

[ReplayRandall]

Not even close - Bailey in his prime was radically better than Ramon in his prime.
Holy Crap, Saratoga Mike, you must have won a pick-6 with Bailey riding the anchor race to make a statement like that. Clearly, in the prime of their careers, Ramon was the best with Cordero being a close second, Bailey a distant third.. :cool:

[Saratoga_Mike]

Holy Crap, Saratoga Mike, you must have won a pick-6 with Bailey riding the anchor race to make a statement like that. Clearly, Ramon was the best with Cordero being a close second, Bailey a distant third.. :cool:

Again, I'm talking about Bailey in his prime. Not even close. Not even close. With all due respect to Ramon, he made mistakes all the time. In his prime, you could watch Bailey ride 100 races without making a mistake. True greatness. Honestly Ramon isn't even in Bailey's league. He's a very nice guy, though, and I wish him the best.

[ReplayRandall]

Again, I'm talking about Bailey in his prime. Not even close. Not even close. With all due respect to Ramon, he made mistakes all the time. In his prime, you could watch Bailey ride 100 races without making a mistake. True greatness. Honestly Ramon isn't even in Bailey's league. He's a very nice guy, though, and I wish him the best.
How many Cigar's and Saint Liam's did Ramon ride? Day in, day out, the best jockey to have with my money on the line, on any horse, any class and any surface.......You always got full commitment with Ramon, not so with Bailey...

[Saratoga_Mike]

How many Cigar's and Saint Liam's did Ramon ride? Day in, day out, the best jockey to have with my money on the line, on any horse, any class and any surface.......You always got full commitment with Ramon, not so with Bailey...

I wasn't even thinking about the great ones JD rode. Again in his prime, I'd take JD all day long....just flawless. You just can't say that about Ramon; he made a lot of mistakes (ditto on JV). It's a shame that Ramon was forced into retirement, as I thought he was always a first-class act.

[EMD4ME]

.

This does belong in a book, written by Andy. It takes an awesome photographer to properly catch an awesome moment/athlete/performer/talent.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

I wasn't even thinking about the great ones JD rode. Again in his prime, I'd take JD all day long....just flawless. You just can't say that about Ramon; he made a lot of mistakes (ditto on JV). It's a shame that Ramon was forced into retirement, as I thought he was always a first-class act.

You don't consume much Ginkgo Biloba i'm guessing. :D

That's a hard sell to try and convince me that anyone is far superior to Ramon, i respect your opinion, i'm just having a hard time believing there's as much of a gap in talent as you're saying.

[ReplayRandall]

I wasn't even thinking about the great ones JD rode. Again in his prime, I'd take JD all day long....just flawless. You just can't say that about Ramon; he made a lot of mistakes (ditto on JV). It's a shame that Ramon was forced into retirement, as I thought he was always a first-class act.
My closing comment on this discussion: Jerry Bailey's ride on Eddington in the 2004 Belmont Stakes was the exact opposite of "flawless", it was a downright disgrace to horse racing... :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[Stillriledup]

Geez its been about 2 years since Ramon has ridden. One of the all time greats, he was just born to be a jock, very few have ever done it better.

He's not in the hall of fame yet, but i'm sure he belongs.

Hl7tNgX4zQk

Read the boldened part that Andy originally wrote that RF highlighted in post 163 and then watch Ramon's 6th winner on this video that i linked in post 160 and then read Andy's comments again and THEN, watch that replay as if Ramon is Moses parting the red sea. The race looks like 9 horses can win, there's just all sorts of Chaos and there's Ramon, moving thru and riding as if he knew he couldn't ever lose no matter what, its really like a video game, there's all this chaos and then this guy comes thru and just looks "different" than all the other riders, as if touched by the hand of god on this ride.

[EMD4ME]

Not even close - Bailey in his prime was radically better than Ramon in his prime.

With all due respect, I loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooved Jerry Bailey since his days as an alcoholic sleeping on horses I bet on, through his best days and on to his last ride where he finished second.

However, after thinking Jerry Bailey was god on a horse for almost 2 decades, I now realize Jerry Bailey was the closest thing to a Ramon Dominguez you could find. Sadly, you will never ever find another TALENT such as Ramon, period.

What you or others called mistakes (by Ramon) are ill found. The man placed his horses in a position for their best possible placing. What others call a mistake is him placing a horse in an ultimate position, only to be marred by racing luck. If Ramon rode like others in those races people call a mistake, his horse would try and win on the far turn and most often finish off the board.

Jerry rode like he was on a 1/5 shot in most races, 3 wide and in the clear. The horse allowed him to do so.

Ramon took hopeless horses and earned them placings with superb preparation (studying the traits and styles of other horses and jocks in the same race), hands that were SECOND to no one's (soft as can be, no rank horses under his hands), a super high IQ/Common Sense (need I comment on the mental aptitude of his co-independent contractors???) and a knack for knowing whats going on (he knew there was a bias in 1 race-CURRENT NYRA jocks didn't know the rail was dead after 22 out of 30 race days of a dead rail!).

Not saying Jerry didn't do that, he was super sharp. Just that Ramon did it to a slightly higher level, day in and day out. Not just on 2/5's in Big races.

[EMD4ME]

http://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/videos/race-replay/AQD/2010/20100417/10/pan/

I was alive for $50,000 to Ramon to close the Pick 6 in April of 2010 at Aqueduct. His horse missed the break. I was done. The horse's name was Ballast (Number 9).

Only Ramon, and I mean ONLY Ramon could've and would've stayed calm, confident, patient, with SOFT hands and give his mount the best shot at rating and finishing well, despite the slow start.

Here's what was so subtly AWESOME about this ride.

1) The horse missed the break. Ramon stayed calm. All it took was 1 STUPID pump by the jock and his horse would've spent energy in an unnecessary part of the race. (and then had less starch/punch later on)

2) He had no choice but to go 3 wide into the Clubhouse turn and did BUT more importantly he did so with calm hands, which allowed his horse to rate naturally in stride and save energy for when it mattered.

3) He subtly tucked 2 wide on the backstretch (there was a head wind that day). Drafting mid race in a turf route against a head wind is huge, never mind the fact that he kept the bottled up energy there for the 1/4 pole and saved ground.

4) He knew exactly who to follow and who not to follow. Wow, what a concept. He studied the form. Knew who was a real contender, who was fake, who had a tendency to move early, move wide, stay glued to the rail, etc.

5) Ramon almost never even needed a whip. Yes, you heard right. Ramon was so good, all he would do is let go of the subtle but firm hold on a horse and the horse would take off. Most pin heads today, actually believe a whip makes a horse go faster. Ramon knew the whip was a stearing mechanism and sometimes a simple sign to a horse of let's go. Most often he didn't need a whip.

97% of jocks would've cost me $50,000 plus that day.

Ramon MADE me $50,000 plus that day.

Not just that day, but in thousands of other races. Consistently like no one else.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Nothing ill-founded. Pull up 100 random Ramon rides from whatever year you consider his best. Now do the same for JDB. I guarantee you'll find more mistakes in the Ramon replays than the Bailey replays. But I appreciate your support for Ramon, and I'm not going to respond anymore as it will start to look like I'm bashing him. I'm not trying to do that, just pointing out the greatness of Bailey. I hope Ramon does extremely well in his new endeavors.

[EMD4ME]

Nothing ill-founded. Pull up 100 random Ramon rides from whatever year you consider his best. Now do the same for JDB. I guarantee you'll find more mistakes in the Ramon replays than the Bailey replays. But I appreciate your support for Ramon, and I'm not going to respond anymore as it will start to look like I'm bashing him. I'm not trying to do that, just pointing out the greatness of Bailey. I hope Ramon does extremely well in his new endeavors.

You're a gentlemen.

I compare this comparison to my love of 2 of my favorite wrestlers LOL: CM Punk and Macho Man Randy Savage. Each was awesome in their day.

I loved Jerry immensely and loved Ramon just as much and then more.

No knock on Jerry from me either. Both the best I have ever seen.

[Stillriledup]

Nothing ill-founded. Pull up 100 random Ramon rides from whatever year you consider his best. Now do the same for JDB. I guarantee you'll find more mistakes in the Ramon replays than the Bailey replays. But I appreciate your support for Ramon, and I'm not going to respond anymore as it will start to look like I'm bashing him. I'm not trying to do that, just pointing out the greatness of Bailey. I hope Ramon does extremely well in his new endeavors.
The math doesn't really support this. Ramon has 9,589 LESS lifetime rides than Bailey and only 908 less winners. Ramon is batting 23% lifetime, to put it in perspective, there's only one top 50 lifetime wins guy ahead of Ramon and that's Russell Baze at 24%.....and we know a lot of his winners were in 5 horse fields riding a Dorfer 3-5 shot, a lot of Ramon's wins were on major circuits in bigger fields.

Hard to imagine this guy made too many mistakes, riding at 23% and NOT doing it at Golden Gate in 5 horse fields is spectacular numerically, its incredibly special. Now when you say mistakes i'm assuming that these are races he SHOULD have won but didnt. Now, you can theoretically make a mistake on a horse and still win, but are we talking about mistakes that cost his mounts the win?

[MJC922]

Tough to compare jocks from a different era on stats. When you think back to the Cordero years, those guys in NY rode against hall of fame riders day in and day out, that NYRA colony in the 80's and 90's was as deep as it gets. The names read like a who's who. Guys like Mike Smith were only seen as being good in those days, only later on when the old guard was all gone is Smith considered to be one of the best in the sport. I don't know about Jerry's entire career but there was a period of time after Angel retired where he could absolutely do no wrong and it wasn't just for a year or two but for a very long time. Granted I haven't followed NYRA closely from 2000 on (or Ramon's career) but IMO it would be very tough to compare due to the competition. I mean who of note has been around NYRA since those Bailey years, Johnny V & Cornelio? A lot of it is who you ride against, no disrespect to top riders but for example Perry Ouzts looks magical where he rides in large part because the others aren't so good.

[Robert Fischer]

I hope this isn't too messy and can be appreciated by someone.

I've made a fair amount of posts on this site, so I searched "Dominguez" under my name and it brought up a lot of my thoughts on RD frozen in real-time. :ThmbUp:

Castellano - who has developed a feather-touch (a la Dominguez) saving horse at the top of stretch and getting the most out Pletcher favorites with strong tactical speed.Interesting ride by Talamo on the fav.

He took the first turn like a cowboy (as opposed to a Ramon Dominguez type ride where he would have come over to the rail and then sit chilly and benefit from controlling the rail prior to the turn). Also, and it may be too subtle, but Flashback breaking a little sluggishly may have caused a little bit of urging and a bit of an unnecessary rush into the first turn. You can kind of ease up through the first turn with a tactical horse on the rail. -You make up ground by being inside without using horse. How many times have we seen Dominguez or someone play the first turn? ...No excuse for losing that, and it still took strong handling from Dominguez on Overanalyze to beat himwhether it was Dominguez, or the layoff... He ran maybe the best race of his life but with Horse and rider sitting tight (picture Dominguez when he knows he has secured rail position going to the 1st turn)... the 7 ski holiday can get a piece in spite of her lack of a sustained move, she does have one small move, and quality for Dominguez to guide up.i liked how Lezcano rode that race with the :1: DRINKSONTHEHOUSE.
He set behind the pace group, a lot like Dominguez would do. Ramon (at least for certain @ Saratoga, probably Belmont too) would have waited in the 2 path and possibly finished better, but Lezcano took the Belmont turn wider and still had enough horse.Dominguez doesn't just get mesmerized and fall-in-line like some jocks would have, he sad F-this! and took it. Dominguez out to a smooth start. didn't use him.Haven't done serious capping yet, but what about Dominguez going to ride RULE in the Woodward?

Is that a negative for TRICKMEISTER? a positive for RULE? or just a change?:3: Dominguez can help judge the pace in this sprint.nice ride by Dominguez on the :4: .:7: Dominguez gets 2nd chance pressing from outside today...Reminded a lot of STONECOLDSTEAMER yesterday. For some reason Dominguez didn't get the memo from Junior Alvarado that horses on the lead should be whipped into the rail , wrangled back and then whipped off their lead several jumps from the rail. :bang:

Dominguez rode him like a professional instead, and guided the horse to a WIN.
Like Night and Day.A guy like Castellano, who may be physical in both hadling of a horse and in-fighting with other horses/jockeys, will miss the whip more

than a say, a guy like Dominguez who typically is more finesse and speed oriented.You think Leparoux is going to come and eat Dominguez' bread in NY ?? :lol::lol:These are obviously not a comprehensive list of jockey tendencies. There is a learning curve to analyzing these abilities. Just as we would debate Eli and Brady's specific abilities and characteristics, we do the same for Castellano and Dominguez. When a level of insight is attained the current and past performances of jockeys (seeing them race) can be critically analyzed. The next step is applying this "jockey physicality" to a FUTURE event.
I will be shocked if Dominguez does not get much better stock to ride.pretty good to run down a classic Dominguez wire job.

Dominguez did his signature graded turf route winning wire-to-wire ride, and Get Stormy was plenty capable - not only in having the requisite virtues to pull off that trip, but even being favored by the public. Looked a little surprised (RD made no error, i'm emphasizing the surprisingly strong run by the winner) to see the grey blow by.
physicality picks

:4: is well meant gelding from the jump of his career... and is in shape and Dominguez (i know this isn't physicality but must include).:10:
10- is coming into own for clement , but will be cheering home 5 as well. Dominguez can be tough on the lead, and this horse could get brave at good odds.dirt or turf Dominguez is king on the lead with a sound animal... he lets his horse run, yet keeps his steed relaxed... uses the track configurations to his advantage...and often conserves horse into the far turn while still maintaining his position of leader.

He had a dream trip and a solid race but he wasn't of the stamina of the big 3 and Astrology.

Broke well, Dominguez eased him over prior to the turn, eased him out prior to the 2nd turn just off the pace(perfect spot to win at Pimlico) he actually ran well around the turn but once he changed leads he flattened out in the drive. looked like Dominguez stole the break on Strike A Deal, and Cornelio Velasquez(bet down fav Winchester) rode the shit out of my horse(5-2 Al Khali) who still got up.Watch the turn- Dominguez on Super Saver eases into the final turn saving a ton of horse for a sure win, but Rose knows his rival from their days at Delaware and other tracks and Rose moves while Dominguez is "saving" horse and Rose has his horse brush Super Saver. Super Saver can't recover and never gets a chance to change leads until the shadow of the wire, if at all.
Dominguez DOMINATED. Usually in the right place, good judgement, even with occasional inner bias where you may have several jockeys gunning for a spot he controls those races.
He doesn't hinder as many horses as just about every jockey.in the 8th?

El Tamberito is proven rateable for Dominguez , probably stalking the rail trip hoping for a pace collapse.Dominguez can slow things down on the turf. His race with Savannah Peach on 9/15/08 was one of my favorites. He exploited the fact that the gate is out of the chute, and then he called the other rider's bluff. Took a mediocre 6f horse out in 26.84 and 3/4ths in 1:18.90 for an easy romp over an 8.5furlong trip.
There are very few jockeys who have any talent whatsoever at going wire to wire in a turf route. Maybe it is extremely difficult? Regardless it is rare to see the talent. Ramon Dominguez is the best in North America, possibly the world. He relaxes the horse, he controls the pace and he has enough finesse to give his horse every chance to be strong in the stretch. you see so many past performances where with Dominguez the horse won on a clear wire-to-wire lead for the first time in it's life, and today it has luzzi or garcia so it is such an easy bet against because Ramon Dominguez won the last race.whos the best jockey in new yorkDominguez is pretty tough at the moment.Or you see a horse that won free on the lead with Dominguez , and today you have a jockey change = you have to understand Dominguez may have won that last race. Sometimes you switch from a jockey with a loose reign to a tight-reign. You knew when Pletcher took Dominguez off of Sunriver and went to Gomez that sooner or later you would get the kind of ride we saw in the Canadian International. You know as much as you can about the Jockeys. Take a day or two at a certain track and put the video and the chart side by side. Keep watching the last 3-4 furlongs and refer to the chart to see what Jockeys are battling. What did they do? Certain things should start to stand out.

[aaron]

If I had to choose between the three top riders,I would probably choose Cordero.I feel he rode against the best riding colony NYRA ever had. He won Triple Crown races and some Breeders Cup races. He was the best rider at Saratoga year after year. He also did not ride for a lot of the top trainers of the era and was still dominant. His ride on Bold Forbes in the Belmont is considered one of the perfect rides of all time.
NYRA used to have a segment on their website with Cordero analyzing some of his rides. It was a treat to listen to.If you can find it the video,I highly recommend it.

[Robert Fischer]

If I had to choose between the three top riders,I would probably choose Cordero.I feel he rode against the best riding colony NYRA ever had. He won Triple Crown races and some Breeders Cup races. He was the best rider at Saratoga year after year. He also did not ride for a lot of the top trainers of the era and was still dominant. His ride on Bold Forbes in the Belmont is considered one of the perfect rides of all time.
NYRA used to have a segment on their website with Cordero analyzing some of his rides. It was a treat to listen to.If you can find it the video,I highly recommend it.
My father told me, that when he briefly met Cordero (late 70s / early 80s?), he greeted Cordero with "Angel, You are the best."

I asked if that was his real opinion or if it was just something cool/nice to say, and he said that was his opinion.

I can't vouch that my father was correct.
I can't claim his opinion is 'infallible', but he had an above average eye for sports, and he loved horse racing. That's my story on a jock that was a bit before my time. :ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

In my opinion,the 3 best riders I have seen ride the NYRA circuit are Cordero,Bailey and Dominguez. It is hard to pick one over the other. I would probably rank Dominguez 3rd,because he didn't last as long as the other two.I thought before he got injured,he had the potential to be #1.

These are exactly my thoughts.

[iceknight]

I know this is a RamonD thread but here is a Jerry Bailey vs Gary Stevens faceoff! 1993 BCC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc9gjaQ_9vc