A mare winning Back 2 back BCC or Triple Crown?

[only11]

We all pretty much agree that Secretariat was the best horse we have ever seen.
If Zenyatta wins out the rest of the year and repeats in the BC classic where would she rank among all greats..

Would you say a MARE winning back 2 back BCC is more difficult then winning the triple crown?
IMO she will be in the top 3 in my era..

[CincyHorseplayer]

I'd say Triple Crown.Which hasn't been done in over 30 years.Longer than the history of the BC.

But would it set a new or good or bad precedent that 2 back to back BC's were run on different surfaces?

If a TC were run under such circumstances IMO it would be less a testament to versatility than a muddled picture.The races were defined by certain circumstances=a constant surface.

It would still be a great achievement.

[CincyHorseplayer]

How about winning the Arc De Triomphe and the Breeders Cup Classic??

That to me would have been the bigtime accomplishment unless back to back BCC were won on dirt.

I have no idea how or if Zarkava or Sea The Stars would have done it would they have been able to be ranked HOY,but it would have gotten my vote and been a great ordeal.

I realize my contradictions here but it's an interesting question Only 11!!

[only11]

How about winning the Arc De Triomphe and the Breeders Cup Classic??

That to me would have been the bigtime accomplishment unless back to back BCC were won on dirt.

I have no idea how or if Zarkava or Sea The Stars would have done it would they have been able to be ranked HOY,but it would have gotten my vote and been a great ordeal.

I realize my contradictions here but it's an interesting question Only 11!!
A triple crown has been done 11 times(Only 11)..A mare winning the BCC and beating the boys in the different surfaces MAY NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN..
If she wins out SHE MAY BE CONSIDERED the greatest....her accomplishments in the modern era will never be repeated...

[CincyHorseplayer]

A triple crown has been done 11 times(Only 11)..A mare winning the BCC and beating the boys in the different surfaces MAY NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN..
If she wins out SHE MAY BE CONSIDERED the greatest....her accomplishments in the modern era will never be repeated...

Cross that bridge when we come to it.

[born2ride]

We all pretty much agree that Secretariat was the best horse we have ever seen.
If Zenyatta wins out the rest of the year and repeats in the BC classic where would she rank among all greats..

Would you say a MARE winning back 2 back BCC is more difficult then winning the triple crown?
IMO she will be in the top 3 in my era..
It all depends on who she beats this year, so it's far too early to tell. She'll never touch the accomplishments of Imp, Miss Woodford, Busher, Dahlia, not to mention scores of males that ran before her but she could move up to the top 40 or 30 with an unbelievable year. The TC is far harder to win that back to back BCCs won by a female.

[only11]

It all depends on who she beats this year, so it's far too early to tell. She'll never touch the accomplishments of Imp, Miss Woodford, Busher, Dahlia, not to mention scores of males that ran before her but she could move up to the top 40 or 30 with an unbelievable year. The TC is far harder to win that back to back BCCs won by a female.
Wait the triple crown has been done 11 times,no horse(mare) has won back 2 back on a different surface.....
She will be in top ten of all time if she finishes undefeated.

[Hanover1]

Wait the triple crown has been done 11 times,no horse(mare) has won back 2 back on a different surface.....
She will be in top ten of all time if she finishes undefeated.
I think what others point out is correct. 2 seperate sets of circumstances requiring seperate sets of circumstances. Apples and oranges are both fruits.....

[BluegrassProf]

Apples to oranges indeed (on numerous levels, particularly the last several years) :ThmbUp:

If Zenyatta wins out the rest of the year and repeats in the BC classic where would she rank among all greats..It depends on who and where she races. Same as it ever was.

Is she "top three in our era" or "top ten all-time?" As if it's not painfully redundant at this point, if her campaign follows as it has from the start, then absolutely, positively not - specifically with with respect to what we've seen to date. As has been driven into the ground, the notion is fairly silly, at least in any sort of practical terms.

No disrespect intended, to either devotees or a very talented mare. I'd like nothing more than to see something(s) that does convince me (and my many esteemed colleagues) that she is in fact worth the hype, and deserves a seat at that table. Who wouldn't want to see greatness in his or her lifetime?

I just need to see it before I say it...I can't go on flowery talk and paddock dancing alone. Need meat with my potaters. :p

If you need further explanation, look to about 938,000 other posts on the matter sprinkled throughout this forum. I've not the energy, and others better-spoken. ;)

[only11]

Apples to oranges indeed (on numerous levels, particularly the last several years) :ThmbUp:

It depends on who and where she races. Same as it ever was.

Is she "top three in our era" or "top ten all-time?" As if it's not painfully redundant at this point, if her campaign follows as it has from the start, then absolutely, positively not - specifically with with respect to what we've seen to date. As has been driven into the ground, the notion is fairly silly, at least in any sort of practical terms.

No disrespect intended, to either devotees or a very talented mare. I'd like nothing more than to see something(s) that does convince me (and my many esteemed colleagues) that she is in fact worth the hype, and deserves a seat at that table. Who wouldn't want to see greatness in his or her lifetime?

I just need to see it before I say it...I can't go on flowery talk and paddock dancing alone. Need meat with my potaters. :p

If you need further explanation, look to about 938,000 other posts on the matter sprinkled throughout this forum. I've not the energy, and others better-spoken. ;)
I see your point..but you better be saying the same for RA...

[born2ride]

Wait the triple crown has been done 11 times,no horse(mare) has won back 2 back on a different surface.....
She will be in top ten of all time if she finishes undefeated.
Three races in 5 weeks vs 2 races in 2 years with one of those races not even won yet! You're putting the horse before the cart so to speak and comparing two different cirumstances.

Top ten of all time? It's possible though Moss and Shirreffs would have to lay the gauntlet down, and so far they've shown a penchant for being conservative. It's eights months between her first start and the BC, and she may need a short rest in the summer. Given that she runs about once every four weeks, that means we can see her about 5 times, maybe 6. We already know 2 of Zen's races will be against females (Santa Margarita, Apple Blossom), and her last could be against males (BC Classic). It's unlikely she'll jump divisions to face males after the AB and face them again just before the Classic, so that's only two possible races against males this year. IMO that's just not enough wins against males to break into the top 10 all-time. Top 10 of the modern era is a different story, a lot hinges on this season though and how aggressive Shirreffs and Moss can be with her campaign. A lot remains to be seen....

[only11]

Three races in 5 weeks vs 2 races in 2 years with one of those races not even won yet! You're putting the horse before the cart so to speak and comparing two different cirumstances.

Top ten of all time? It's possible though Moss and Shirreffs would have to lay the gauntlet down, and so far they've shown a penchant for being conservative. It's eights months between her first start and the BC, and she may need a short rest in the summer. Given that she runs about once every four weeks, that means we can see her about 5 times, maybe 6. We already know 2 of Zen's races will be against females (Santa Margarita, Apple Blossom), and her last could be against males (BC Classic). It's unlikely she'll jump divisions to face males after the AB and face them again just before the Classic, so that's only two possible races against males this year. IMO that's just not enough wins against males to break into the top 10 all-time. Top 10 of the modern era is a different story, a lot hinges on this season though and how aggressive Shirreffs and Moss can be with her campaign. A lot remains to be seen....
Conservative ...i ask you ..your Z's trainer,i would like you to map out the remaining races for the rest of the year.

[castaway01]

Conservative ...i ask you ..your Z's trainer,i would like you to map out the remaining races for the rest of the year.

She's a great mare, obviously, but "conservative" means "never running anywhere but polytrack or Oaklawn".

I grant you that if she wins the BC Classic again she's one of the top horses of any gender, all time...but seriously, let's get her through a couple races this year first because we start talking about that.

[only11]

She's a great mare, obviously, but "conservative" means "never running anywhere but polytrack or Oaklawn".

I grant you that if she wins the BC Classic again she's one of the top horses of any gender, all time...but seriously, let's get her through a couple races this year first because we start talking about that.
Honestly do you really think she not as good on dirt as she is on poly?

[SmartyLane]

We'll find out in about a month if the dirt is to her liking as it was in the previous Apple Blossom she won.

I would love her connections to enter her in races like RA saw last year. Try her in the big name races like the JCGC, or Woodward this year. I have seen in person her two Breeders Cup races. I will be the first to say she is absolutely amazingly great. It is a dissapointment to me though to continue seeing her run in races that simply do not challenge her.
Everybody knows she is the best west coast horse on the synthetics. I remember late 2008, and early 2009 I was so excited to watch her race no matter the race. It is hard to get super excited anymore though.

Milady two years in a row
Vanity two years in a row
Clement Hirsch two years in a row
Lady's Secret two years in a row

She needs to be challenged. Those races even though a few were close are on the other end of the spectrum from what RA faced last year, or any of the other fillies and mares we all through around as being great. Look at Genuine Risk.......ran in all three TC races....won one and was game in the other two. That is taking a chance and seeing what a horse really has. RA had that kind of season and therefore can have her name thrown around with the other modern era greats.

I personally think Z could go unbeaten although I am a bigger RA fan. When they meet I will go for RA but wouldn't be surprised if I am on the losing end. Challenge the old girl. See whats she got. Then we can talk about her in the same sentences as not only the modern greats but all time greats both sexes.

[Dahoss9698]

Honestly do you really think she not as good on dirt as she is on poly?

Yes

[WinterTriangle]

I find it somewhat humorous people here saying that winning the Triple Crown would be the "highest" order of accomplishment, when the subject matter is 2 horses who can't even compete at the distance of the TC races..you have to run 1-1/4 and 1-1/2 to win the KY Derby and the Belmont.

We'll find out in about a month if the dirt is to her liking as it was in the previous Apple Blossom she won.



IMHO one race will let us find out absolutely......very little.


(However, anyone who thinks dirt is not her best surface would then also have to admit that she's racing at a huge disadvantage, right?)


As for challenging, her trainer is willing to race her on different surfaces. Both have run against boys in big races and won. When you put all the "challenges" together, both horses have met, and excelled, at every challenge thrown at them. Zen's connections have now accepted the challenge of a somewhat new surface for their mare. Perhaps the other side will ship to a tapeta, pro-ride, cushion-track or similarly different surface for their "next" race. Then, we can see what-is-what.

Or..... have a race at 1-1/4 or 1-1/2, which let's face it, is more a classic distance which a classic distance horse should be able to run and win at? Until then, there are just too many other horses who will be held at a higher level (for me) who have raced 1-1/4 and 1-1/2 mile races.

There is no way to shore-up these things that can't be even-stephened to the point where I will ever feel that a proper match-up has happened....and even then, I would want to see at least THREE such matchups before I decide who I think is "better".

So, put 'em both on a deep tiring dirt track, at 1-1/4 and 1-1/2, and then I'll let you know what I think. In the meantime, there are world greats who can, and have, done this......against boys.

[born2ride]

We'll find out in about a month if the dirt is to her liking as it was in the previous Apple Blossom she won.

I would love her connections to enter her in races like RA saw last year. Try her in the big name races like the JCGC, or Woodward this year. I have seen in person her two Breeders Cup races. I will be the first to say she is absolutely amazingly great. It is a dissapointment to me though to continue seeing her run in races that simply do not challenge her.
Everybody knows she is the best west coast horse on the synthetics. I remember late 2008, and early 2009 I was so excited to watch her race no matter the race. It is hard to get super excited anymore though.

Milady two years in a row
Vanity two years in a row
Clement Hirsch two years in a row
Lady's Secret two years in a row

She needs to be challenged. Those races even though a few were close are on the other end of the spectrum from what RA faced last year, or any of the other fillies and mares we all through around as being great. Look at Genuine Risk.......ran in all three TC races....won one and was game in the other two. That is taking a chance and seeing what a horse really has. RA had that kind of season and therefore can have her name thrown around with the other modern era greats.

I personally think Z could go unbeaten although I am a bigger RA fan. When they meet I will go for RA but wouldn't be surprised if I am on the losing end. Challenge the old girl. See whats she got. Then we can talk about her in the same sentences as not only the modern greats but all time greats both sexes.
I agree with your post. I'm less impressived by being undefeated in a bunch of soft spots than I'd be her having a loss or two by being placed in tougher races.