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twindouble
03-04-2010, 02:57 PM
While posting here last night I became acutely aware of how old arguments and opinions have been recycled here and on the old DRF forum. That's going back 12 to 15 years. Not that it didn't cross my mind many times during that period but what struck me last night was how long it's been going on. Back in the DRF forum days I was also aware of gap between us old timers and the new kids on the block. My thoughts were, there's no way in hell these computer geek's will replace traditional handicapping or the language that goes with it and I resented the very thought of it, still do today.

Racing to me has an historical and cultural bond that in my mind shouldn't be messed with and it would wrong to attempt to change it. At times I considered maybe I'm just being a stubborn old goat, only because I have over the years excepted some changes in the game and I was quick to set aside my hand tools and go for the power tools. I never bought those tools until they proved to be, durable, practical and a tool that produced. That's the way I looked at the Daily Racing Form, my "bible".

That tool (DRF) put me into my 50th year playing the horses. Why would I want let that go or incorporate it into a computer program? As I've said and many here, "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". The modern handicappers perpetuate that generation gap by promoting the idea that computer technology is the in thing. To me that was and still is an assault on racing's traditions because I believe new players wouldn't appreciate the true essence of the game. The OTB experience is doesn't come close to the track experience 50 TV'S showing 8 different tracks, bar rooms with a name over the door (The Paddock), screaming patrons in a small building with lousy acoustics that's painful to the ears. Boy, that was a great leap forward after the tracks and fairs closed up around us.Sure there's a few left that put up with OTB just across the line in NY but I doubt that will be there next year.

At one time you couldn't go anywhere around here without bumping into many people, with a racing form or connected to racing in one why or another. Today they don't exist and the kids know nothing about racing. That gap and eliminating the cultural connection was the primary reason why there's not a new generation of players in this area. Can the modern media replace that? That remains to be seen but even it did work to some extent, those new players will never understand or feel the heart beat of racing in their communities. How many tracks have closed and will close in the near future? Sitting at this computer offers very little compared to those days. So, I come here to drive you guy's nuts. Yes, I've touched on this subject before.

Today, I'm at the point where I think if the racing industry doesn't care about the long standing traditions or the cultural effect on the fan base by closing up shop, why should I care at my age. The young will takeover anyway, whatever form racing takes or if it even survives.

I'll end this by saying that the most profound and long lasting lessons I learned as a child came from the elderly. Here's a link. Watch it, then come back and tell me I should dump my traditional thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueFbT3L7Yzw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueFbT3L7Yzw)

Greyfox
03-04-2010, 03:15 PM
:ThmbUp: Excellent video.

Tell you to dump your traditional thinking? I wouldn't do that. However, this is 2010 and I know that new ideas evolve when old men die.
There's no going back to the past. However, the past of that track is probably the future of several across this land.

(By the way, it's amazing more of those old barns across America didn't go up in flames. They were accidents waiting to happen.)

twindouble
03-04-2010, 03:52 PM
:ThmbUp: Excellent video.

Tell you to dump your traditional thinking? I wouldn't do that. However, this is 2010 and I know that new ideas evolve when old men die.
There's no going back to the past. However, the past of that track is probably the future of several across this land.

(By the way, it's amazing more of those old barns across America didn't go up in flames. They were accidents waiting to happen.)

That's right, old isn't necessarily good when it comes to safety but extract tradition from anything of value, and it will disappear.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 12:07 PM
However, this is 2010 and I know that new ideas evolve when old men die. Quote; Greyfox;

Like I said, I don't buy into new ideas just because they are new or changing what has worked for millennium. I like to cook, if I bought everything that was "new" and innovative in kitchen appliances and gadgets over the last 50 years, that would have been a dumb thing to do, 95% of it turned out to be junk in a short time. To me the dot com's were a joke from day one. How many survived after the crap hit the fan? I stay with what works and I would never buy into having a computer take over the basic functions of my truck like breaks and accelerator. Common sense to me. New and inovative ideas can do you in, not just make things better.

Digital horse racing for morons that have no idea what racing is all about. Anyone who thinks that's the ticket help save racing has more than one screw loose. I can see it all now 500 machines that will pay a jackpot, go ahead pick one that's about to payoff if you handicap it right, if you want to call it handicapping.

Why do think back in the 30's and 40's slot machines were called "one arm bandits". Smart common sense people didn't play them. It's beyond me why the racing industry didn't think their product couldn't compete with slots or poker. They didn't take them on. Freaking dummies. I'm not going hash over all the dumb ass things they did or didn't do, everyone here knows anyway and they are still at it.

Dave Schwartz
03-05-2010, 12:50 PM
TwinDouble,

This is a really good point that you have made.

My outlook on racing is different from yours. Racing has always been a means to an ends. That said, I still understand where you are coming from.

Perhaps an even better place to draw this analogy is baseball. Many of us who were enjoying baseball in the 50s-60s-70s are very disappointed with the baseball game of today; the way it has evolved and dare I say "ruined" by free agency and drugs.


It is obvious that the racing of tomorrow (or at least the day after tomorrow) is likely to be far different than what you and I remember and liked about racing when we got started.

Racing must change to survive. I think we all get that. Have you ever been to the Racing Museum in Saratoga? What bothers me is how distant the feel of racing today is from what we "feel" at that museum. It promises to be worse tomorrow.

Thanks for bringing this up.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

46zilzal
03-05-2010, 01:10 PM
NOTHING stays the same. The Chinese have a daily ritual in that honor in the study of the I CHING.

Racing is no different. I f you study the early part of the century racing was outlawed in NY and California (the latter from 1912-14 to after prohibition was repealed). Why do you think Caliente came into being?

It will happen again and as painful as it will be, the roots of it will persist even though in a much reduced scope and form.

The deal with the devil (the dreaded Racino) has gone about as far as it can go and the bubble is now starting to break in both NY and California again. The NBA goons who now runs racing are akin to letting a fox manage the chicken house, or more correctly a sheet metal worker called in to manage a farm. THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

Nothing in racing happens for the first time.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 01:18 PM
Takeouts were around 10% back in the 30's. You could only bet WPS (not sure when exactors, quinellas, doubles came into the picture (but if any were available back then, we are talking one dd and one ex or quinella daily.

As for horse racing's reputation. It has always had a cheating (race fixing and/or drugs) element associated with it, and the bettors have always been seen by the general public as most degenerate gamblers, especially those who deem themselves to be regulars.

The general public doesn't perceive horse race bettors any different than slot players, football bettors, blackjack players, etc.

QuarterCrack
03-05-2010, 01:52 PM
The old ways and methods were also new at one time.

Everyone is different; as long as everyone has something that works for them, that's what counts. If someone is happy with a pen-and-paper method, then great. If someone prefers software or databases, then great. We have a large proliferation of data right now, in many many forms. This is good from a standpoint of having a lot of options available to the player.

On the subject of your post, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. Do you feel like someone is trying to change your handicapping ways? I don't see how that is possible - you can handicap off the Form as long as you want. Who is trying to make you dump your traditional thinking? Nobody can do that - only you can change your thinking.

As for the cultural connection, I hate to say it, but it's gone and is never coming back. Not only is racing now a couple generations removed from being a bigtime gambling outlet, with lotteries, casinos, etc. taking the forefront, but the whole sporting element of it is gone, as well. Nobody cares about racing from a sporting standpoint anymore. Racing shot itself in the foot by not setting its own mark at the beginning of the media age, and as subsequent generations don't pick up the torch, racing drifts further and further away from relevance.

That ship has sailed, and I'm not sure what the answer is. In my opinion, they should promote the sport 100% from the gambling side of things, as opposed to sport or pageantry. That is the only chance they have of coming back. Sports will fall off the map over time, but gambling has always been here and will always be here. It just takes different forms. Racing just needs to get back on track with establishing itself as a prominent form of gambling outlet.

And when it does come back, you'll be right there with your pen and paper and your Form, and I'll be there with my computer software. And everything will be right with the world! :)

46zilzal
03-05-2010, 02:07 PM
Where race track execs MISS the boat completely is in explaining how one can pick and choose in a parimutuel system as opposed to you take what you get in regular gambling.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 03:23 PM
NOTHING stays the same. The Chinese have a daily ritual in that honor in the study of the I CHING.

Racing is no different. I f you study the early part of the century racing was outlawed in NY and California (the latter from 1912-14 to after prohibition was repealed). Why do you think Caliente came into being?

It will happen again and as painful as it will be, the roots of it will persist even though in a much reduced scope and form.

The deal with the devil (the dreaded Racino) has gone about as far as it can go and the bubble is now starting to break in both NY and California again. The NBA goons who now runs racing are akin to letting a fox manage the chicken house, or more correctly a sheet metal worker called in to manage a farm. THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

Nothing in racing happens for the first time.

46; I wrote at least ten paragraphs on another forum on how " Racing has changed over the years". Things that I had to adapt to and the things that I liked that made me money. So I have been well aware that everything changes over time, good handicappers know when to take advantage of those changes. I only slept 6 hrs a day and some days no sleep at all, never slept all day every day. LOL. 4:30 AM to get the form before anyone else, tipping the driver. I can except change but it upsets me when some think racing can be turned into some it's not.

46zilzal
03-05-2010, 03:26 PM
46; I wrote at least ten paragraphs on another forum on how " Racing has changed over the years". Things that I had to adapt to and the things that I liked that made me money. So I have been well aware that everything changes over time, good handicappers know when to take advantage of those changes. I only slept 6 hrs a day and some days no sleep at all, never slept all day every day. LOL. 4:30 AM to get the form before anyone else, tipping the driver. I can except change but it upsets me when some think racing can be turned into some it's not.

I have not bought a form in years....The fact that I work at the track allows me free access to them anyway, but ON LINE they are both cheaper and far handier than the bulky paper

twindouble
03-05-2010, 03:49 PM
The old ways and methods were also new at one time.

Everyone is different; as long as everyone has something that works for them, that's what counts. If someone is happy with a pen-and-paper method, then great. If someone prefers software or databases, then great. We have a large proliferation of data right now, in many many forms. This is good from a standpoint of having a lot of options available to the player.

On the subject of your post, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. Do you feel like someone is trying to change your handicapping ways? I don't see how that is possible - you can handicap off the Form as long as you want. Who is trying to make you dump your traditional thinking? Nobody can do that - only you can change your thinking.

As for the cultural connection, I hate to say it, but it's gone and is never coming back. Not only is racing now a couple generations removed from being a bigtime gambling outlet, with lotteries, casinos, etc. taking the forefront, but the whole sporting element of it is gone, as well. Nobody cares about racing from a sporting standpoint anymore. Racing shot itself in the foot by not setting its own mark at the beginning of the media age, and as subsequent generations don't pick up the torch, racing drifts further and further away from relevance.

That ship has sailed, and I'm not sure what the answer is. In my opinion, they should promote the sport 100% from the gambling side of things, as opposed to sport or pageantry. That is the only chance they have of coming back. Sports will fall off the map over time, but gambling has always been here and will always be here. It just takes different forms. Racing just needs to get back on track with establishing itself as a prominent form of gambling outlet.

And when it does come back, you'll be right there with your pen and paper and your Form, and I'll be there with my computer software. And everything will be right with the world! :)

I've been trying to drive home how important the cultural thread is in racing when it comes to creating and preserving fans. The day racing is no longer perceived as a sport and just a gambling venue, well you can kiss it good by. There's to many involved on the other side that would disagree with you, the very ones we support at the windows. Those are the elites of the game including all the writers of the "sport". Sure there are hard core gamblers in the game but they will all be interested in the out come of the Blossom and those two horses will end up the hall of fame. That's another thing over the years I've driving home, it is and should be all about the horse, historically that's a fact.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 03:56 PM
I have not bought a form in years....The fact that I work at the track allows me free access to them anyway, but ON LINE they are both cheaper and far handier than the bulky paper

agree, there's is benefits being on this computer, hell I wouldn't be able to find a form here any longer anyway, all the tracks closed up like I said and no one around here is interested in racing any longer. Forget the young ones, like I said, they know nothing about racing. There just a few OTB old goats left. Online wagering kept me going, don't have to drive a long distance every day getting to a track, saves money and time. That don't mean I wouldn't go to a track with one close by, it's a better social environment than sitting in this closet, that's why I'm here.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 03:57 PM
I've been trying to drive home how important the cultural thread is in racing when it comes to creating and preserving fans. The day racing is no longer perceived as a sport and just a gambling venue, well you can kiss it good by. There's to many involved on the other side that would disagree with you, the very ones we support at the windows. Those are the elites of the game including all the writers of the "sport". Sure there are hard core gamblers in the game but they will all be interested in the out come of the Blossom and those two horses will end up the hall of fame. That's another thing over the years I've driving home, it is and should be all about the horse, historically that's a fact.
There used to be a culture that used horses for transportation. It is over with.
As long as racing doesn't realize it is a gambling venue and not about the horses, racing will continue to die.
Sorry, but Willoughby only exists in the past (that is a Twilight Zone reference).

Today, for horse racing to grow it needs to appeal to the younger bettors and potential bettors, and then a new culture can form.

QuarterCrack
03-05-2010, 04:11 PM
The cultural experience is something that develops AFTER someone is already into the game. Maybe it's important when it comes to keeping fans intrigued with the sport, but when it comes to attracting new fans, it's totally irrelevant.

I mean, when you take someone to the track for the first time, you're not doing it from the standpoint of, "Hey, let's spend the day at the track so we can watch horses run and enjoy the pageantry and history of the sport". You instead present it as, "Hey, let's spend the day at the track - we can bet some ponies and maybe win a few bucks."

Nobody was drawn to poker, for example, because of its cultural history. It was about winning money. Once they became immersed in the game, then perhaps they came to appreciate the cultural significance, etc. of the game. But it was not what drew them in.

I agree with what was posted above - the only way for horse racing to grow is to appeal to potential bettors. You said yourself - the people who put money through the windows are the ones who support the people on the backstretch. So the ultimate goal is bringing in bettors.

Look at it the other way - say I was a huge horse racing fan who loved it for the sport itself and its history, etc. But I never wagered a single dime on the races. How am I helping grow the sport? I'm not.

That's why the gambling aspect must be the main draw if racing is going to grow in the future.

QuarterCrack
03-05-2010, 04:19 PM
I guess it ultimately comes down to whether you perceive horse racing to be more comparable to sports like baseball or football, or games like poker, blackjack, or craps.

My position is that racing is unique in that it kind of lies on both sides of this aisle. But we need to accept that the time is long gone when racing could be considered a sport in the eye of the general public. It's just not a spectator sport. If it was, tracks would still draw 20,000 people on a Wednesday afternoon.

Therefore, it should instead be promoted as a game if it is going to last. That's the only way this same public who neglects it as a sport will be willing to return to it and accept it - if it's presented in a different form, namely a gambling game.

Greyfox
03-05-2010, 04:20 PM
I'm not sure that I can separate horse racing and gambling and culture.

I can watch perhaps a race a week at home and enjoy it without betting.
I couldn't do that more frequently. Just watching races without betting would soon put me to sleep.
I don't don't gamble on other sports.
I can't imagine why I would go to the OTB if I couldn't bet horse races.
I wouldn't go to the OTB or track if there wasn't some camaraderie with fogies that I've met and enjoyed there.
Playing the ponies at home on the computer is an "okay" experience.
But if you don't have anyone to share a "winning" experience with, what good is the money in and of itself. Heresey, perhaps.

I need horses, gambling, and the "culture" of the game. It's been in my blood too long with several members of my immediate and extended family also very involved.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 04:33 PM
The cultural experience is something that develops AFTER someone is already into the game. Maybe it's important when it comes to keeping fans intrigued with the sport, but when it comes to attracting new fans, it's totally irrelevant.

I mean, when you take someone to the track for the first time, you're not doing it from the standpoint of, "Hey, let's spend the day at the track so we can watch horses run and enjoy the pageantry and history of the sport". You instead present it as, "Hey, let's spend the day at the track - we can bet some ponies and maybe win a few bucks."

Nobody was drawn to poker, for example, because of its cultural history. It was about winning money. Once they became immersed in the game, then perhaps they came to appreciate the cultural significance, etc. of the game. But it was not what drew them in.

I agree with what was posted above - the only way for horse racing to grow is to appeal to potential bettors. You said yourself - the people who put money through the windows are the ones who support the people on the backstretch. So the ultimate goal is bringing in bettors.

Look at it the other way - say I was a huge horse racing fan who loved it for the sport itself and its history, etc. But I never wagered a single dime on the races. How am I helping grow the sport? I'm not.

That's why the gambling aspect must be the main draw if racing is going to grow in the future.

Of course there's a big element of gambling in racing but anyone with a sound mind can't help but to get caught up in all the other good things racing has to offer. I've always said here that I'm a "handicapper gambler" and I love the sport. Are you saying people like me don't exist anymore and they can't get caught up in in?

Leonard
03-05-2010, 04:46 PM
I guess it ultimately comes down to whether you perceive horse racing to be more comparable to sports like baseball or football, or games like poker, blackjack, or craps.

My position is that racing is unique in that it kind of lies on both sides of this aisle. But we need to accept that the time is long gone when racing could be considered a sport in the eye of the general public. It's just not a spectator sport. If it was, tracks would still draw 20,000 people on a Wednesday afternoon.

Therefore, it should instead be promoted as a game if it is going to last. That's the only way this same public who neglects it as a sport will be willing to return to it and accept it - if it's presented in a different form, namely a gambling game.

Exactly. Forty years ago entertainment choices were much more limited. You could go see a movie -- only one played at a time at the local movie house. Now there anywhere from 6 to 24 to choose from at any time at the local megaplex. TV was limited to 3 broadcast networks. Now there a hundred or more channels to surf. Casinos were pretty much confined to Nevada. Home computers were non-existant. The list goes on.

Forty years ago it was easier to get people to go to the track for something different to do on a Saturday afternoon, watch the horses run and blow a few bucks. Along the way fans developed.

Racing never adapted to the entertainment/sports model as times changed so now it should just concentrate on the gambling aspect.

lamboguy
03-05-2010, 04:47 PM
TwinDouble,

This is a really good point that you have made.

My outlook on racing is different from yours. Racing has always been a means to an ends. That said, I still understand where you are coming from.

Perhaps an even better place to draw this analogy is baseball. Many of us who were enjoying baseball in the 50s-60s-70s are very disappointed with the baseball game of today; the way it has evolved and dare I say "ruined" by free agency and drugs.


It is obvious that the racing of tomorrow (or at least the day after tomorrow) is likely to be far different than what you and I remember and liked about racing when we got started.

Racing must change to survive. I think we all get that. Have you ever been to the Racing Museum in Saratoga? What bothers me is how distant the feel of racing today is from what we "feel" at that museum. It promises to be worse tomorrow.

Thanks for bringing this up.


Regards,
Dave Schwartzyes baseball is boring today compared to years ago, and horseracing has similar problems. its my birthday next week and i am starting to feel OLD!

twindouble
03-05-2010, 05:11 PM
I guess it ultimately comes down to whether you perceive horse racing to be more comparable to sports like baseball or football, or games like poker, blackjack, or craps.

My position is that racing is unique in that it kind of lies on both sides of this aisle. But we need to accept that the time is long gone when racing could be considered a sport in the eye of the general public. It's just not a spectator sport. If it was, tracks would still draw 20,000 people on a Wednesday afternoon.

Therefore, it should instead be promoted as a game if it is going to last. That's the only way this same public who neglects it as a sport will be willing to return to it and accept it - if it's presented in a different form, namely a gambling game.

In my opinion including many others here racing missed the boat on getting "the eye of the public" mainly the generations that could have replaced me and those that have gone before me. I personally have brought many into the game that are still players today. When it comes to the industry, I'm worth my weight in gold to them year after year but they don't understand that and haven't right along. Instead what do they do, they piss me off by giving a few those dam high rebates when that money could be doing some good for the industry and the players. Sucks to no end, those whales aren't handicappers they are just skimmers!

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 05:20 PM
In my opinion including many others here racing missed the boat on getting "the eye of the public" mainly the generations that could have replaced me and those that have gone before me. I personally have brought many into the game that are still players today. When it comes to the industry, I'm worth my weight in gold to them year after year but they don't understand that and haven't right along. Instead what do they do, they piss me off by giving a few those dam high rebates when that money could be doing some good for the industry and the players. Sucks to no end, those whales aren't handicappers they are just skimmers!
I brought lots of people to the track too, back 20-30 years ago. Stopped when the game became too hard just to break even (again, there were beyer speed figs added to the form, loss of dumb money to lotteries, and more diluted pools with higher takeouts which forced everyone's takeout up). This was long before whales came into existence.

Racing missed its mark because they failed to compete to keep. Plain and simple.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 05:37 PM
I brought lots of people to the track too, back 20-30 years ago. Stopped when the game became too hard just to break even (again, there were beyer speed figs added to the form, loss of dumb money to lotteries, and more diluted pools with higher takeouts which forced everyone's takeout up). This was long before whales came into existence.

Racing missed its mark because they failed to compete to keep. Plain and simple.

The Beyer figures were and still are an asset to me, just by ignoring them knowing others would and still do, pounce on them. I welcomed that "change". Besides I wouldn't trust any numbers that are produced by a big gambler. That's just me.

Any good gambler knows without thinking about it, they lottery is a suckers bet. Horse racing should hammer that home in some way. Betting on the horses is a far cry from being a suckers bet. Tell me, how many poker players make it to the big table?

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 05:45 PM
The Beyer figures were and still are an asset to me, just by ignoring them knowing others would and still do, pounce on them. I welcomed that "change". Besides I wouldn't trust any numbers that are produced by a big gambler. That's just me.

Any good gambler knows without thinking about it, they lottery is a suckers bet. Horse racing should hammer that home in some way. Betting on the horses is a far cry from being a suckers bet. Tell me, how many poker players make it to the big table?
There only needs to be a few poker players to make it to the big table. That is what sucks everyone else in.

Horse racing has no gamblers at the big table not getting rebates. At 20%, there is no big table regardless of whether whales existed.

A good gambler does not invest the time it takes to learn a game that has no visible long term winners.

tzipi
03-05-2010, 05:55 PM
Tell me, how many poker players make it to the big table?

Well if your talking about the World Series of poker, I think about ten make the final table but you dont have to make the final table to win good money.

If your talking about home games,casino pick up games,casino tournaments. Plenty of people make money and again you don't need to win or hit final table in these either to win. If 90%+ were losing I think it would be an empty tables game :D
Alot of people I know do very well in poker and enjoy playing a card game against other players and hate betting on animals. I personally enjoy racing very much. Just me :)

twindouble
03-05-2010, 05:58 PM
There only needs to be a few poker players to make it to the big table. That is what sucks everyone else in.

Horse racing has no gamblers at the big table not getting rebates. At 20%, there is no big table regardless of whether whales existed.

A good gambler does not invest the time it takes to learn a game that has no visible long term winners.

Are you referring to horse players? If you are, in my opinion that's not true. There isn't any statistical facts to back that up. The way I see it, winners rotate to the top on any given day, week or year, then they fall somewhere in the middle or near the top for awhile and the cycle continues year after year. There's no way that any player can stay in the game on regular bases like I have for 49 plus years and be "a loser". I'd be living on the street, divorced and the kids would hate me and I raised 5. My son VJ is a good handicapper and so is my wife.

elhelmete
03-05-2010, 05:59 PM
I'm not sure that I can separate horse racing and gambling and culture.

I can watch perhaps a race a week at home and enjoy it without betting.
I couldn't do that more frequently. Just watching races without betting would soon put me to sleep.
I don't don't gamble on other sports.
I can't imagine why I would go to the OTB if I couldn't bet horse races.
I wouldn't go to the OTB or track if there wasn't some camaraderie with fogies that I've met and enjoyed there.
Playing the ponies at home on the computer is an "okay" experience.
But if you don't have anyone to share a "winning" experience with, what good is the money in and of itself. Heresey, perhaps.

I need horses, gambling, and the "culture" of the game. It's been in my blood too long with several members of my immediate and extended family also very involved.

Are we brothers? :) Great post.

Dave Schwartz
03-05-2010, 06:02 PM
Sucks to no end, those whales aren't handicappers they are just skimmers!


:ThmbUp:

twindouble
03-05-2010, 06:03 PM
Well if your talking about the World Series of poker, I think about ten make the final table but you dont have to make the final table to win good money.

If your talking about home games,casino pick up games,casino tournaments. Plenty of people make money and again you don't need to win or hit final table in these either to win. If 90%+ were losing I think it would be an empty tables game :D
Alot of people I know do very well in poker and enjoy playing a card game against other players and hate betting on animals. I personally enjoy racing very much. Just me :)

Well, I think "plenty" of horse players make money as well. I've been around it long enough to say that with confidence. When it comes to poker, I don't know what the stats are when it comes winners and losers but I would like to see them.

tzipi
03-05-2010, 06:07 PM
A good gambler does not invest the time it takes to learn a game that has no visible long term winners.

I love John Conte's Quote after winning the World Series of Handicapping and $500,000. "IF I WIN 5 MORE OF THESE I MIGHT BE EVEN" :lol:

Horse racing always has had these saying. "No one ever wins over time." "You never hear people say they are losers over time. Everyones says their a winner". "You can't beat the game" etc. But heck even though I might not be even I enjoy the horses.

Greyfox
03-05-2010, 06:10 PM
Are we brothers? :) Great post.

Thank you. (I deliberately put a lot of "I" remarks down the left of that post.)
It truly puzzles me how many people can take in Chuck wagon racing or Indy or NASCAR racing and they aren't betting, apparently. When those come on TV, I sleep. So I know it's not just racing that stirs me.
In the meanwhile the whole ball of wool is horses, gambling, and camaraderie, for me.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 06:22 PM
Just for the record, I started this thread just to let you all know what and how I think. If anyone gleams anything from what say that would help your game or racing that's a good thing. I don't have any reason to lie, exaggerate and it sure as heck isn't driven by a big ego. I learned early on that ego and gambling don't mix very well. Confidence does payoff as long as your not over confident.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 06:25 PM
[/b]

Are you referring to horse players? If you are, in my opinion that's not true. There isn't any statistical facts to back that up. The way I see it, winners rotate to the top on any given day, week or year, then they fall somewhere in the middle or near the top for awhile and the cycle continues year after year. There's no way that any player can stay in the game on regular bases like I have for 49 plus years and be "a loser". I'd be living on the street, divorced and the kids would hate me and I raised 5. My son VJ is a good handicapper and so is my wife.Nonsense. You can be a horseplayer and lose every year for 49. I know plenty of people who came close to the 49 year mark in my life. Plenty of people. Most aren't alive today though. But they had jobs, and lost maybe a quarter or half their net income (100% of their disposable cash) on the ponies year after year. Tracks are full of these people.

Sorry, but I buy that the game can be beaten on the year by someone who plays less than 10G's a year, if they get lucky a few times, but without rebates over a longer run, forget about it.

My father was an excellent handicapper. He was a $2 bettor ($60 a day on average). If he was lucky, during a year, he made enough money to cover the forms he bought each when the dust cleared.

And I happen to have had a very good source tell me some very enlightening empirical evidence regarding how many people win.....all I can say is that it might be one in 5000 to 10,000 and nobody is making a living at it without rebates theses days....unlike poker that has quite a few people making a living at it.

A good handicapper to me is someone who is good enough to have a .9 ROI or better.

TJDave
03-05-2010, 06:26 PM
Therefore, it should instead be promoted as a game if it is going to last. That's the only way this same public who neglects it as a sport will be willing to return to it and accept it - if it's presented in a different form, namely a gambling game.

So...How would you think that would affect tracks? Will they tear down the grandstands and build condominiums?

As a game, the cost of production is prohibitive. Why would the consumer prefer horse racing over more conventional and less variable forms of gambling?

I don't think horse racing can survive as just a gambling game.

And it certainly wouldn't be a game I could support.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 06:47 PM
Nonsense. You can be a horseplayer and lose every year for 49. I know plenty of people who came close to the 49 year mark in my life. Plenty of people. Most aren't alive today though. But they had jobs, and lost maybe a quarter or half their net income (100% of their disposable cash) on the ponies year after year. Tracks are full of these people.

Sorry, but I buy that the game can be beaten on the year by someone who plays less than 10G's a year, if they get lucky a few times, but without rebates over a longer run, forget about it.

My father was an excellent handicapper. He was a $2 bettor ($60 a day on average). If he was lucky, during a year, he made enough money to cover the forms he bought each when the dust cleared.

And I happen to have had a very good source tell me some very enlightening empirical evidence regarding how many people win.....all I can say is that it might be one in 5000 to 10,000 and nobody is making a living at it without rebates theses days....unlike poker that has quite a few people making a living at it.

A good handicapper to me is someone who is good enough to have a .9 ROI or better.

Nonsense? What your telling me is the old saying that just 2% make money playing the horses, that statement goes back many years. What blows that out of the water is the very fact that the same 2 % never stay on top all the time, other players take their place. Like I said, there's a rotation going all the time through out the year.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 06:54 PM
Nonsense? What your telling me is the old saying that just 2% make money playing the horses, that statement goes back many years. What blows that out of the water is the very fact that the same 2 % never stay on top all the time, other players take their place. Like I said, there's a rotation going all the time through out the year.
It is less than 1% a year these days (without rebates), and yes, the rotation does exist.
What I said nonsense too is the idea that one can't lose betting horse every year for as long as they live. That is very much a reality.....it happens to many.

tzipi
03-05-2010, 06:54 PM
So horse racing has great potential and money making power but gamblers for some reason are leaving the game year after year and handle goes down year after year while other games like poker amongst others are picking up many gamblers and money.
Good things about poker is when we play our tournaments and pick up games we dont have to pay heavy takeout. Plus theirs TONS of tournaments around everday in poker venues. I think I get two tournaments a YEAR in NY for horses. Again, I love racing and always will but I disagree with your point of view on the two. But hey we're entitled to our opinions.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 07:01 PM
It is less than 1% a year these days (without rebates), and yes, the rotation does exist.
What I said nonsense too is the idea that one can't lose betting horse every year for as long as they live. That is very much a reality.....it happens to many.

I agree some people shouldn't gamble at all. Many players get involved, love the game but they don't sell their shirt to play.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 07:04 PM
It is less than 1% a year these days (without rebates), and yes, the rotation does exist.
What I said nonsense too is the idea that one can't lose betting horse every year for as long as they live. That is very much a reality.....it happens to many.

I agree rebates added another dimension for people that would normally be losers.

TJDave
03-05-2010, 07:15 PM
I agree rebates added another dimension for people that would normally be losers.

If you're a loser doesn't a rebate mean you lose less?

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 07:20 PM
If you're a loser doesn't a rebate mean you lose less?
Not necessarily. If you historically cash .98 for every dollar you bet. Without rebates you lose. If you get a rebate of 3%, you are now a winner.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 07:21 PM
If you're a loser doesn't a rebate mean you lose less?

If a whale can't make money on the horses with those rebates, he's another that shouldn't be playing the horses, unless he enoys losing and has money to burn.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 07:26 PM
If a whale can't make money on the horses with those rebates, he's another that shouldn't be playing the horses, unless he enoys losing and has money to burn.
If the requirement is that players should make money or quit (or they enjoy burning money), the stands, the OTBs, the simulcast centers, and the ADWs would be empty.
There are plenty of big players who get rebates and still lose money.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 07:37 PM
If the requirement is that players should make money or quit (or they enjoy burning money), the stands, the OTBs, the simulcast centers, and the ADWs would be empty.
There are plenty of big players who get rebates and still lose money.

So they enjoy the game and can afford to play. I would find it hard to believe those that churn a ton of money are in it just for fun. Big money to one player is peanuts to another, plus one could be getting a much lower rebate than the other.

TJDave
03-05-2010, 07:42 PM
Not necessarily. If you historically cash .98 for every dollar you bet. Without rebates you lose. If you get a rebate of 3%, you are now a winner.

A negative .1% ROI ain't exactly like throwing darts blindfolded. So the perception that the rebate crowd has no clue and is simply churning money ain't quite correct, is it? You have to be a somewhat competent handicapper to get close.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 07:45 PM
[/b]

So they enjoy the game and can afford to play. I would find it hard to believe those that churn a ton of money are in it just for fun. Big money to one player is peanuts to another, plus one could be getting a much lower rebate than the other.
Many big players churn lots, and come very close to winning. No matter what, it still boils down to luck. There are bad streaks, costly photos, disqualifications, etc. that could turn someone into a loser.
And like most players, there are some that don't mind losing $20k a year even if they churn millions, knowing they have at least a chance to win.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 07:48 PM
A negative .1% ROI ain't exactly like throwing darts blindfolded. So the perception that the rebate crowd has no clue and is simply churning money ain't quite correct, is it? You have to be a somewhat competent handicapper to get close.
Very competent handicappers and/or very good computer programs.

What I gave is just an example. Whales generally get double digit rebates, and may have ROIs in the low .90's.

Still, a .90 ROI against a 20% takeout means the horseplayer is a very capable handicapper or has a very good computer system.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 08:00 PM
Many big players churn lots, and come very close to winning. No matter what, it still boils down to luck. There are bad streaks, costly photos, disqualifications, etc. that could turn someone into a loser.
And like most players, there are some that don't mind losing $20k a year even if they churn millions, knowing they have at least a chance to win.

I can't except the idea that most whales are border line winners or losers, no different than the average players. I'm not going to fold up and concede that those rebates are fair or level playing field as you make it sound. I wasn't born yesterday.

Dave Schwartz
03-05-2010, 08:10 PM
I can't except the idea that most whales are border line winners or losers, no different than the average players. I'm not going to fold up and concede that those rebates are fair or level playing field as you make it sound. I wasn't born yesterday.

If you are saying that you can't accept that whales are winning players then you can't accept the truth.

Listen... nobody is going to bet $30 million a year or more and lose. Simply put, they run out of money.

CBedo
03-05-2010, 08:16 PM
The young will takeover anyway, whatever form racing takes or if it even survives.The problem is that with horse racing the way it is, the young AREN'T taking over, and the traditional game is slowly dieing.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 08:16 PM
I can't except the idea that most whales are border line winners or losers, no different than the average players. I'm not going to fold up and concede that those rebates are fair or level playing field as you make it sound. I wasn't born yesterday.
There are a few whales that make lots. It depends on how you want to define a whale though. There are people who put over $5 million through the windows last year and lost money. There are quite a few players who bet a couple of million a year and lose money. But the thinking is that if they lose $50 grand or less( lets remember, when you bet 2 million, you are supposed to lose 400k), they are very close to winning on the upside, and they had a lot of entertainment on the downside. But the possibility of winning was there thanks to rebates.

And where did I say the playing field is level?
It is a fact that whales get the best rebates.

There are a few States in the USA that make it impossible to get legal rebates, but other than those, anyone can become a whale. It is what many players strive to be. Has a huge positive impact on the pools, and many of the whale wannabes lose money.
Much like with those who chase the dream of being a top poker player which trickles down to small players who discovered poker because there are winners.

Where racing fails right now, is they don't promote the winners.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 08:18 PM
If you are saying that you can't accept that whales are winning players then you can't accept the truth.

Listen... nobody is going to bet $30 million a year or more and lose. Simply put, they run out of money.
Again, we need to define whale. Those betting 30 million a year, most probably win every year, but it is possible they could lose a couple of hundred k and still be in the game for the entire year.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 08:20 PM
If you are saying that you can't accept that whales are winning players then you can't accept the truth.

Listen... nobody is going to bet $30 million a year or more and lose. Simply put, they run out of money.


What? The whales bet $30 million and don't lose but they run out of money??? Clear that up for me.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 08:30 PM
There are a few whales that make lots. It depends on how you want to define a whale though. There are people who put over $5 million through the windows last year and lost money. There are quite a few players who bet a couple of million a year and lose money. But the thinking is that if they lose $50 grand or less( lets remember, when you bet 2 million, you are supposed to lose 400k), they are very close to winning on the upside, and they had a lot of entertainment on the downside. But the possibility of winning was there thanks to rebates.

And where did I say the playing field is level?
It is a fact that whales get the best rebates.

There are a few States in the USA that make it impossible to get legal rebates, but other than those, anyone can become a whale. It is what many players strive to be. Has a huge positive impact on the pools, and many of the whale wannabes lose money.
Much like with those who chase the dream of being a top poker player which trickles down to small players who discovered poker because there are winners.

Where racing fails right now, is they don't promote the winners.

I know you didn't say level playing field. I said you make it sound like a level playing field. Anyone that's betting two million dollars of their own money and not win with the rebates, they better have a long talk with me. I'll show them how to make money with bankroll like that.

Steve 'StatMan'
03-05-2010, 08:31 PM
Rebates. The rebate money more than offsets many whales losses. Lose 2% on the betting, get say an 8% rebate on handle, you make 6%. That's why they push so much money throught the virtual window.

Dave Schwartz
03-05-2010, 08:32 PM
Please re-read it. You have missed what I am saying.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 08:33 PM
I know you didn't say level playing field. I said you make it sound like a level playing field. Anyone that's betting two million dollars of their own money and not win with the rebates, they better have a long talk with me. I'll show them how to make money with bankroll like that.
You have to understand something. To bet $1 million with good rebates a year may require a bankroll of $20,000 or even less to withstand losing streaks.

Still, the $20k could be lost at the end of the year.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 08:42 PM
You have to understand something. To bet $1 million with good rebates a year may require a bankroll of $20,000 or even less to withstand losing streaks.

Still, the $20k could be lost at the end of the year.

I think right wheels slipped off the track. Your not saying a $2 million dollar backroll, you mean what a whale churns. Keep in mind that double digit rebate is other peoples money he's churning, including on losing tickets.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 08:48 PM
I think right wheels slipped off the track. Your not saying a $2 million dollar backroll, you mean what a whale churns. Keep in mind that double digit rebate is other peoples money he's churning, including on losing tickets.
What I am saying that if a whale bets off $20 million a year, he may only need a $1 million bankroll or even less.

And no, it isn't other people's money he is churning.

Lets say you bet at a non rebate ADW. They might take 12% on average of every dollar bet and not give any of it back to players.

A high volume rebate shop may give out 10% to its high volume bettor on average instead of just keeping it.

So how is it the other people's money the whale is churning?

Dave Schwartz
03-05-2010, 08:49 PM
I think right wheels slipped off the track. Your not saying a $2 million dollar backroll, you mean what a whale churns. Keep in mind that double digit rebate is other peoples money he's churning, including on losing tickets.

That is untrue. The rebate comes from the ADWs commission for taking the bet.

The problem (for us) with the whales is that they are very intelligent money.

Dave Schwartz
03-05-2010, 08:51 PM
Horseplayersbet.com,

I think I am going to let you continue on alone from here. You seem to have the situation under control. <G>


Dave

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 08:55 PM
Horseplayersbet.com,

I think I am going to let you continue on alone from here. You seem to have the situation under control. <G>


Dave
The one thing whales do that is negative, is that they cause prices to be lower than they would if whales didn't exist.
However, their mere existence is why so many mini-whales, dolphins and even carp try to better themselves to maybe become a whale one day.

Without whales and rebates, the pools would dry up to next to nothing, and all hope would be gone for the most intelligent of handicappers/bettors.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 08:57 PM
What I am saying that if a whale bets off $20 million a year, he may only need a $1 million bankroll or even less.

And no, it isn't other people's money he is churning.

Lets say you bet at a non rebate ADW. They might take 12% on average of every dollar bet and not give any of it back to players.

A high volume rebate shop may give out 10% to its high volume bettor on average instead of just keeping it.

So how is it the other people's money the whale is churning?

Rebates don't come out of thin air, it's the ADW'S money or the rebate shops. What ever rebates they get, that's churned as well.

Like I said, anyone who needs a million dollar bankroll and can't make money with a 10% rebate win or lose sounds unbelievable to me.

Greyfox
03-05-2010, 08:58 PM
I know lots of $ 2 minows and they still are the heart and soul of the game.
If they walk, racing is in trouble. Believe it or not, Ripley.

Dave Schwartz
03-05-2010, 09:05 PM
Without whales and rebates, the pools would dry up to next to nothing, and all hope would be gone for the most intelligent of Handicappers/bettors.

I could not agree with this any less than I do.

Yes, the pools would be smaller but the competition would be softer.

Dave

twindouble
03-05-2010, 09:08 PM
Horseplayersbet.com,

I think I am going to let you continue on alone from here. You seem to have the situation under control. <G>


Dave

Sense when did a thread or opinions become a "situation under control"??

Dave Schwartz
03-05-2010, 09:30 PM
Twin,

Perhaps it is poor communication on my part but I seem to be having a difficult time getting my point across to you.



Dave

Buckeye
03-05-2010, 09:40 PM
TwinDouble,

This is a really good point that you have made.

My outlook on racing is different from yours. Racing has always been a means to an ends. That said, I still understand where you are coming from.

Perhaps an even better place to draw this analogy is baseball. Many of us who were enjoying baseball in the 50s-60s-70s are very disappointed with the baseball game of today; the way it has evolved and dare I say "ruined" by free agency and drugs.


It is obvious that the racing of tomorrow (or at least the day after tomorrow) is likely to be far different than what you and I remember and liked about racing when we got started.

Racing must change to survive. I think we all get that. Have you ever been to the Racing Museum in Saratoga? What bothers me is how distant the feel of racing today is from what we "feel" at that museum. It promises to be worse tomorrow.

Thanks for bringing this up.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

I dunno Dave,

I've been to that museum and racing is still essentially what it was from my standpoint-- and I've changed more than it has. But, who cares about me? This isn't about me. Our President just wants to help us all through this (please don't). It's very obvious Obama is a mistake President.

Patience is a virtue, I'll bet we all agree on that, and Market Forces will have their say. Sooner rather than later they will have their say. It's better than relying on good intentions.

Buckeye
03-05-2010, 10:02 PM
Whatever product is put out there is intended to find a buyer at the highest possible price. If and when people have stopped buying the product, it will change to seek again what? participation at the highest possible price. Remember also newcomers are NOT going to participate because we "prefer them to or want them to" but only because they want to.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 10:06 PM
The one thing whales do that is negative, is that they cause prices to be lower than they would if whales didn't exist.
However, their mere existence is why so many mini-whales, dolphins and even carp try to better themselves to maybe become a whale one day.

Without whales and rebates, the pools would dry up to next to nothing, and all hope would be gone for the most intelligent of handicappers/bettors.

If those whales or players can't win without rebates they far from being the most intelligent handicappers/bettors.

InsideThePylons-MW
03-05-2010, 10:15 PM
[/b]

If those whales or players can't win without rebates they far from being the most intelligent handicappers/bettors.

Wrong!

If you bet 10 million a year and lose 5% pre-rebate, you are more intelligent than someone that bets 100K and wins 10%.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 11:12 PM
Wrong!

If you bet 10 million a year and lose 5% pre-rebate, you are more intelligent than someone that bets 100K and wins 10%.

I have no faith in figures that could be just pulled out of the air. This isn't a political race here. The whales are operating the dark getting double digit rebates. I would be a fool to except the idea it's OK for them to skim the mutual's.

InsideThePylons-MW
03-05-2010, 11:15 PM
I have no faith in figures that could be just pulled out of the air. This isn't a political race here. The whales are operating the dark getting double digit rebates. I would be a fool to except the idea it's OK for them to skim the mutual's.

I forgot about skimming the mutual's and that it's not a politcal race.

You could be right.

Greyfox
03-05-2010, 11:17 PM
I'm not a whale.

Can a "Whale," who is almost breaking even betting, make more money on horse racing than simple investing in other markets, gold, futures, or banks?

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 11:24 PM
I could not agree with this any less than I do.

Yes, the pools would be smaller but the competition would be softer.

Dave
The competition will never be as soft as it was in the 60's or 70's when dumb money was all over the place as only one in three tops used a racing form.
And the collective takeout was around 4 points lower than it is today.

Yes, the competition would be softer without rebates, but you would still need to be a miracle bettor to make a living beating a 20% takeout.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 11:25 PM
I'm not a whale.

Can a "Whale," who is almost breaking even betting, make more money on horse racing than simple investing in other markets, gold, futures, or banks?
I've looked at the market performance over the last 10 years, and it seems that there is a lot of guessing and gambling involved. So the answer is, maybe, it depends.

twindouble
03-05-2010, 11:38 PM
I'm not a whale.

Can a "Whale," who is almost breaking even betting, make more money on horse racing than simple investing in other markets, gold, futures, or banks?

I'm of the impression the whales found a good thing because of the margin involved. They won't be going to Wall Street or the commodities market.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-05-2010, 11:44 PM
I'm of the impression the whales found a good thing because of the margin involved. They won't be going to Wall Street or the commodities market.
The margins involved on a stock trade are about 1600% better for the day trader, maybe more.

Can you imagine day trading and paying an 8% commission on each trade?

twindouble
03-06-2010, 12:05 AM
The competition will never be as soft as it was in the 60's or 70's when dumb money was all over the place as only one in three tops used a racing form.
And the collective takeout was around 4 points lower than it is today.

Yes, the competition would be softer without rebates, but you would still need to be a miracle bettor to make a living beating a 20% takeout.

Like I said earlier, takeout is a factor to consider but getting to know the track or tracks your playing is more important than that 4% you mentioned. Adapting to the new wagering menu sense then with a good wagering strategy is what paid off for me, plus the changing track conditions and the advent of synthetic tracks. Like said, the Beyer figures were a big plus just by ignoring them.

twindouble
03-06-2010, 12:10 AM
The margins involved on a stock trade are about 1600% better for the day trader, maybe more.

Can you imagine day trading and paying an 8% commission on each trade?

The margin I was refering to was the rebates on winners and losing tickets. Not commissions.

Dave Schwartz
03-06-2010, 12:16 AM
A successful rebate player can roll his bankroll 100-125 times per year. That means a guy that wagered $300m and won (after rebate) $30m actually played out of a $3m bank. Thus, he got 1,000% on his investment for the year.

Try doing that for 5 consecutive years on Wall Street.

twindouble
03-06-2010, 12:26 AM
A successful rebate player can roll his bankroll 100-125 times per year. That means a guy that wagered $300m and won (after rebate) $30m actually played out of a $3m bank. Thus, he got 1,000% on his investment for the year.

Try doing that for 5 consecutive years on Wall Street.

I'm thinking about contacting our Senator in Washington to see if he can look into the Federal pari-mutual laws, including how these rebate whales operate and if the conform to Federal laws.

Thanks to all for the input,

T.D.

proximity
03-06-2010, 12:47 AM
i'll ask again: shouldn't twindouble himself be eligible for some decent rebates??

i see that his home state of massachusetts is on the list of states on the application form for premier turf club for example..... and not every state is.

proximity
03-06-2010, 12:53 AM
i see that massachusetts is on the drop down list for a bet.horseplayersbet application too.

i see that virginia is on ptc's list, but not on bet.horseplayerbet's list??????

Greyfox
03-06-2010, 02:17 AM
A successful rebate player can roll his bankroll 100-125 times per year. That means a guy that wagered $300m and won (after rebate) $30m actually played out of a $3m bank. Thus, he got 1,000% on his investment for the year.

Try doing that for 5 consecutive years on Wall Street.

And....that begs the question of the unsuccessful rebate bettor...?

Can the Whale who almost breaks even make as much money in other ventures?

Dave Schwartz
03-06-2010, 03:00 AM
The unsuccessful rebate bettor (whale) generally quits.

Horseplayersbet.com
03-06-2010, 07:39 AM
A successful rebate player can roll his bankroll 100-125 times per year. That means a guy that wagered $300m and won (after rebate) $30m actually played out of a $3m bank. Thus, he got 1,000% on his investment for the year.

Try doing that for 5 consecutive years on Wall Street.
I'm a little dubious that there is a whale that bets close to a million a day and has a ROI after rebate of 1.1. I can see a positive 1.05 though.

I guess it is possible, but you are probably only talking one specific player or team here.

It is also hard to fathom that one person or team close to $825,000 day (2.5% of the total handle bet in North America), and with handle dropping, I'm sure if that was true a couple of years ago, it has probably dropped off by the same percentages if not more as the drop in handle.

Dave Schwartz
03-06-2010, 07:53 AM
Be dubious if you wish.

twindouble
03-06-2010, 02:58 PM
Bill Dwyre of the L.A. Times says, quote;

"Racing lives on in history and legend. The Big Cap has it and is it."