Frank Monteleone, Retires, not all trainers make money

[Igeteven]

Not all trainers make money.

Thanks CW for the link


http://www.chrb.ca.gov/Minutes_Sant...SA_10_02_14.pdf

02/12/104 FINANCIAL HEARING
Owner Brian McGoldrick, accompanied by his counsel, Lisa Brown, was in the office to pursue his financial complaint against his former trainer, Frank Monteleone. McGoldrick alleged that Monteleone absconded $12,400 from the owner’s account without authorization.

Ms. Brown offered into evidence a Settlement Agreement signed by both Monteleone and McGoldrick during June of 2009, whereby an installment plan to repay the debt was in place. Monteleone failed to live up to the agreement, thereby prompting McGoldrick to file the complaint. Neither Monteleone nor his attorney, Carlo Fisco, appeared. It should be noted that Fisco requested, and was granted, two continuances in the matter as it was originally scheduled for hearing on December 26, 2009.

On February 9, 2010, the Stewards were in receipt of documentation from Fisco to the effect that Monteleone had filed for bankruptcy with the Federal Bankruptcy Court in Los Angeles and had named Mr. McGoldrick as a creditor in that filing. The Stewards were informed by Board legal counsel, Robert Miller, that action by the Stewards to collect the debt was precluded by the bankruptcy filing.
More to come.

[Spalding No!]

This is the same trainer who allegedly purchased two French horses a few years ago and imported them to race in California. The new owners were billed for training, veterinary work, etc. However, whenever the horses were close to a start, conveniently, a problem would arise and the horses would not be entered. This went on for approximately 2 years.

Finally, one of the owners had the bright idea to actually investigate the situation. Turns out Monteleone never actually purchased or imported the horses (both remained in France). The vet work being done was performed unwittingly on other horses in Monteleone's care. He was of course sued and ultimately settled with the duped owners.

How he retained his CA license in the aftermath is a true mystery and is yet another example of how disorganized and impotent CA racing administration has become.

[ManeMediaMogul]

Virtually no trainers make money. (Less than 5%.)

Most trainers survive on cashflow and credit. When you are billing for $40,000 a month, the cashflow will take you a long way, but eventually, the bubble bursts.

It is a thankless job. The late Eddie Gregson was fond of saying, "There are only two kinds of trainers - Those that have been fired and those that are gonna get fired."

If a trainer spent at much time working the drive up window at McDonald's as he does training and coddling clients, he would be ridiculously wealthy with overtime and holiday pay even at minimum wage.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Virtually no trainers make money. (Less than 5%.)

Most trainers survive on cashflow and credit. When you are billing for $40,000 a month, the cashflow will take you a long way, but eventually, the bubble bursts.

It is a thankless job. The late Eddie Gregson was fond of saying, "There are only two kinds of trainers - Those that have been fired and those that are gonna get fired."

If a trainer spent at much time working the drive up window at McDonald's as he does training and coddling clients, he would be ridiculously wealthy with overtime and holiday pay even at minimum wage.

Believe it. :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

Believe it. :ThmbUp:


Frank is a capable trainer and it's a shame he is having tough times.

It seems that an overwhelming number of Trainers, Breeders, Horseplayers, and Owners lose their collective asses.

My question is who's making the money?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Frank is a capable trainer and it's a shame he is having tough times.

It seems that an overwhelming number of Trainers, Breeders, Horseplayers, and Owners lose their collective asses.

My question is who's making the money?

Historically, the pinhookers, not even sure if that's true anymore.

[andymays]

Historically, the pinhookers, not even sure if that's true anymore.


In California it's some of the Racing Executives and Racing Officials who really don't have any skin in the game. They get their checks regardless and if they do a bad job they get recycled somewhere else and wreck that deal.

[cj]

Virtually no trainers make money. (Less than 5%.)

Most trainers survive on cashflow and credit. When you are billing for $40,000 a month, the cashflow will take you a long way, but eventually, the bubble bursts.

It is a thankless job. The late Eddie Gregson was fond of saying, "There are only two kinds of trainers - Those that have been fired and those that are gonna get fired."

If a trainer spent at much time working the drive up window at McDonald's as he does training and coddling clients, he would be ridiculously wealthy with overtime and holiday pay even at minimum wage.

Isn't training a full time job? How is it possible that only 5% are making money? There would be a lot fewer trainers if that 5% were true.

[Saratoga_Mike]

In California it's some of the Racing Executives and Racing Officials who really don't have any skin in the game. They get their checks regardless and if they do a bad job they get recycled somewhere else and wreck that deal.

Corporate America is littered with examples of failed executives moving from one failure to another. It isn't just racing in California.

[statepierback]

The name Carlo Fisco rings a bell. Wasn't he a harness driver at one time?

[andymays]

Corporate America is littered with examples of failed executives moving from one failure to another. It isn't just racing in California.


What pisses me off more than anything is that they have no skin in the game but they set the pace and have too much power. In California that is. I don't know about everywhere else.

[Relwob Owner]

What pisses me off more than anything is that they have no skin in the game but they set the pace and have too much power. In California that is. I don't know about everywhere else.


Everywhere else, it is the same and even worse IMO.....as many executives get stock in the companies they work for, even if they have none of their own skin in it

Trainer wise, that 5% number does seem kind of low.....

[andymays]

Everywhere else, it is the same and even worse IMO.....as many executives get stock in the companies they work for, even if they have none of their own skin in it

Trainer wise, that 5% number does seem kind of low.....

Yes, I'd guess that it's about 60%. I do know that quite a few owners are way behind on their bills and I do know of a couple of bigtime guys struggling to make it. You would never think it.

Several years ago I was at Del Mar in a box with a friend of mine and Henry Moreno was sitting behind us. My friend turns to him and says hey Henry "how come you don't win anymore". Henry says "I don't need to because I invested my money well". Then he points to Baffert who was a ways away and said "see that guy" "if he doesn't win one or two a day he's in trouble with his overhead".

[Mineshaft]

Frank is a capable trainer and it's a shame he is having tough times.

It seems that an overwhelming number of Trainers, Breeders, Horseplayers, and Owners lose their collective asses.

My question is who's making the money?






Jocks and vets...

[jballscalls]

if you work for a track, provide for yourself and your family with income made by putting in time in the game, isn't that having skin in the game??

i guess not according to Andy

[andymays]

if you work for a track, provide for yourself and your family with income made by putting in time in the game, isn't that having skin in the game??

i guess not according to Andy


I'm talking about highly paid Racing Executives and Racing Officials in California. Not the average guy busting his butt to make ends meet.

[ralph_the_cat]

Jocks and vets...

boy did you nail that one...

throw shoers on there two... that $100 is well worth the 40 min of work...

Always have to laugh... owners, trainers, and bettors get the shaft in this business... no matter how high the purses are... all the bills around them go up too....

[ralph_the_cat]

If a trainer spent at much time working the drive up window at McDonald's as he does training and coddling clients, he would be ridiculously wealthy with overtime and holiday pay even at minimum wage.

Couldnt have said it better...

people think Im nuts when I say only the top 10 trainers at a track make enough money to call it a "job"... and that "job" doesnt mean it pays well...

[ralph_the_cat]

[/B]
Then he points to Baffert who was a ways away and said "see that guy" "if he doesn't win one or two a day he's in trouble with his overhead".

ya right... you mean his wife doesnt get a new set of shoes...

[Igeteven]

I sat back before I could respond on some of the posts,

As to Frank, In Law, there is always 2 sides to a civil law suite.


defending a 12 grand law suite, could cost the defendant 15 thousands or so in Attorney costs.


I know this to be fact, because I work for some of them.


Lester

[affirmedny]

:) In California it's some of the Racing Executives and Racing Officials who really don't have any skin in the game. They get their checks regardless and if they do a bad job they get recycled somewhere else and wreck that deal.

Get rid of racing officials? So you're advocating "free enterprise" then?

[rwwupl]

Virtually no trainers make money. (Less than 5%.)

Most trainers survive on cashflow and credit. When you are billing for $40,000 a month, the cashflow will take you a long way, but eventually, the bubble bursts.

It is a thankless job. The late Eddie Gregson was fond of saying, "There are only two kinds of trainers - Those that have been fired and those that are gonna get fired."

If a trainer spent at much time working the drive up window at McDonald's as he does training and coddling clients, he would be ridiculously wealthy with overtime and holiday pay even at minimum wage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Where do you get the facts for a statement like that? I am not saying you are wrong, but that seems a little too much to believe.

Several years ago I had reason to check on how many trainers there were at Santa anita and I was surprised to find that there were over 300 licensed trainers. There were only 10 "Program trainers" listed on the program. I found that the majority of "trainers" never won a race that season. Only about 50 won a race at all.

The others had other means of support besides winning races, and they got passes and tried to get clients and worked for more active trainers.... If you count them all, it makes the average income low for trainers, but the winning type trainers do very well, at least they did then.

Things may have changed since I was on that project, but I find it hard to believe that only 5% of active trainers make money, without twisting the stats and not offering an explanation. It makes people feel bad for the poor trainers,and you wonder how they survive.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Most trainers don't have two jobs. They train, and that is all they do. Some may have small businesses on the side. But to say only 5% make money is ridiculous.
You don't see them in welfare lines. Many might not have extra money, some may be in debt, however most have a roof under their heads, a family, and they feed and clothes their family with money THEY MAKE.

[toussaud]

it's post like this why make some of the things here just plain hard to believe. according to some no one makes money

how come in most threads, we can point out that socals 100 dollar a day rates are just stupid high, yet only 5% of the population makes a profit.

If only 5% of the trainers were making a profit, there would not be as many full time horseman as their are. Plain and simple.

It has become very fashionable to talk about how bad horse racing is. How trainers can't make money, how owners can't make money (they usually don't granted).

while most aren't living the high life.. most earn enough to put a roof over their heads. you catch a break like mandella did with phone trick and own half of one that goes to stud and you never know.

but 5% is just silly talk.

[Igeteven]

Most trainers don't have two jobs. They train, and that is all they do. Some may have small businesses on the side. But to say only 5% make money is ridiculous.
You don't see them in welfare lines. Many might not have extra money, some may be in debt, however most have a roof under their heads, a family, and they feed and clothes their family with money THEY MAKE.

Right on,

also, they bet the horses, they control the short fields, why does the favorite half the time jump in the air, the starter holds on the rains, the jockey pulls to the back of the field or the horse runs so fast they drop dead from taking off like a bullet, and run third most of the time. (exacta time)

Trainers bet and sometimes bet big. Now welcome to S Cal Racing

[Horseplayersbet.com]

This is simple logic. Do grooms make money? Of course they do. Do grooms make more than trainers? Highly doubtful, but it is possible, just not very likely over the course of a year.

If you ask a trainer do you make enough money? Well that is different, but then again, ask anyone if they make enough money.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Right on,

also, they bet the horses, they control the short fields, why does the favorite half the time jump in the air, the starter holds on the rains, the jockey pulls to the back of the field or the horse runs so fast they drop dead from taking off like a bullet, and run third most of the time. (exacta time)

Trainers bet and sometimes bet big. Now welcome to S Cal Racing
I doubt there are many if any trainers who make money betting. But many lose money, and that is why they might say they make no money.

[Igeteven]

I doubt there are many if any trainers who make money betting. But many lose money, and that is why they might say they make no money.

Very few people make money betting the horses, some get lucky, but over all, no way

[ManeMediaMogul]

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Where do you get the facts for a statement like that? I am not saying you are wrong, but that seems a little too much to believe.

Several years ago I had reason to check on how many trainers there were at Santa anita and I was surprised to find that there were over 300 licensed trainers. There were only 10 "Program trainers" listed on the program. I found that the majority of "trainers" never won a race that season. Only about 50 won a race at all.

The others had other means of support besides winning races, and they got passes and tried to get clients and worked for more active trainers.... If you count them all, it makes the average income low for trainers, but the winning type trainers do very well, at least they did then.

Things may have changed since I was on that project, but I find it hard to believe that only 5% of active trainers make money, without twisting the stats and not offering an explanation. It makes people feel bad for the poor trainers,and you wonder how they survive.

Richard Mandella, a Hall of Fame trainer, had a year a while back where is stable earned about $5 million in purses. He told me that he lost money that year.

What most people don't realize is the costs of training Thoroughbred racehorses is completely out of line with trainers' day rates.

Let's say a trainer like Todd Pletcher, who has possibly 200 horses in training and charges approximately $100 a day, manages to make, with volume discounts and timely bill paying, $2 a day per horse. If they never earned a dime and he got zero in commissions, he would be making $400 a day or $208,000 a year. Decent job right?

His expenses for training those 200 horses is $19,600 per day or $588,000 per month or $7,056,000 per year. He has to pay that out regardless of slow pay owners and complete stiffs.

He is making 2% on his investment if everybody pays in a timely manner so he can pay his bills on time.

In this scenario, Todd should become a bridgejumper. If he could pick one of his horses to finish in the money just one time a year he could double his income.

Now, you'll say, Pletcher does $20 million in purses so he makes $2 million in commissions so he is getting richer every day and that might be true, but remember, he is arguably the top trainer in the game.

Most trainers resemble my example without the commissions but with fewer horses, not many of top quality and a lot of owners who slow pay and don't pay, so their margin is way less.

Don't kid yourself, the fancy cars you see in the O/T lot are all leased. Not many trainers live in mansions - lots in RVs and cheap hotel rooms. All the bull you read about betting coups you can toss out the window. Most trainers barely have enough dough to buy a sandwich and a Coke at the concession stand - Forget about making a huge score. It is a hard life for most and the occasional win doesn't really get you out of the hole.

[cj]

This is the same trainer who allegedly purchased two French horses a few years ago and imported them to race in California. The new owners were billed for training, veterinary work, etc. However, whenever the horses were close to a start, conveniently, a problem would arise and the horses would not be entered. This went on for approximately 2 years.

Finally, one of the owners had the bright idea to actually investigate the situation. Turns out Monteleone never actually purchased or imported the horses (both remained in France). The vet work being done was performed unwittingly on other horses in Monteleone's care. He was of course sued and ultimately settled with the duped owners.

How he retained his CA license in the aftermath is a true mystery and is yet another example of how disorganized and impotent CA racing administration has become.

If this is true, and IT IS, how could anyone possibly defend this guy? He is a crook. End of story.

[rwwupl]

excerpt from above:

Richard Mandella, a Hall of Fame trainer, had a year a while back where is stable earned about $5 million in purses. He told me that he lost money that year.


Gee, I feel sorry for Trainer Richard Mandella, Maybe he needs a new business manager.

I think most of the people I know would be happy to trade places anyway(income status)with Richard Mandella. :)

[andicap]

When Mandella says he "loses money," is he talking about personally or the stable as a corporate entity? Im sure the expenses that led to the red ink included his own personal day rates, his share of winning purses. It's all about accounting and reporting a loss so Uncle Sam doesn't come calling.

Why do Hollywood studios say they love money on most films and the talent has learned to get a share of the "gross," not the "net?"

I presume Mandella himself did not lose money or else he would probably find something a bit more lucrative to do for a living (Unless he had independent means of support or was living off savings, etc.)

As far as trainers having second jobs, I've read about many conditioners with very small stables -- a handful of horses -- who have to work a job on the side. Maybe they are only in the game as a hobby or are semi-retired, etc. Of those 300 trainers on the roster, how many are just doing the job on the side instead of full-time for a living?

If you divide your trainer roster into those part-timers and the full-timers, the ridiculous 5% figure becomes a lot more realistic.

[ralph_the_cat]

Most trainers don't have two jobs. They train, and that is all they do. Some may have small businesses on the side. But to say only 5% make money is ridiculous.
You don't see them in welfare lines. Many might not have extra money, some may be in debt, however most have a roof under their heads, a family, and they feed and clothes their family with money THEY MAKE.

you seem to know/or atleast act like you know a lot about trainers...

Willing to play along?... and we can get to the bottom of this-you can see just how hard it is to make a profit...

You just got your trainers license, whats your next step?... how do you make money?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

you seem to know/or atleast act like you know a lot about trainers...

Willing to play along?... and we can get to the bottom of this-you can see just how hard it is to make a profit...

You just got your trainers license, whats your next step?... how do you make money?
Hey Cat, I've stated here a few times. My brother is a trainer. Am I a trainer? no. Do I know about trainers, yes.

By definition, grooms make money. They get paid usually a salary.

Are you going to tell me that the majority of trainers make less than their grooms over the course of the season? If that is the case, why don't trainers just become grooms?

If a trainer reinvests their money in their own horses and they lose on the investment, it doesn't mean they didn't make money training. If they lose money betting, it means they lost the money they made training horses betting.

[ralph_the_cat]

Hey Cat, I've stated here a few times. My brother is a trainer. Am I a trainer? no. Do I know about trainers, yes.

By definition, grooms make money. They get paid usually a salary.

Are you going to tell me that the majority of trainers make less than their grooms over the course of the season? If that is the case, why don't trainers just become grooms?

If a trainer reinvests their money in their own horses and they lose on the investment, it doesn't mean they didn't make money training. If they lose money betting, it means they lost the money they made training horses betting.

you stating a trainer should only get paid when he wins is beyond comical, your brother must HATE you...

when a trainer receives a check from his owners, everyone gets paid first, whats left is yours... your help is on salary, SO THEY GET PAID FIRST... see DOZENS of guys pay 3 or 4 grooms a few hundred bucks a week, and not have any left for their pockets... why dont they just be a groom? TONS would be better off, but trainers ARE DREAMERS, you fight to stay alive in hopes of making money and getting those wins.... when you;re a crook, you put a few bucks in your pocket first and leave your grooms hanging... wasnt there an article written about the young trainer who trained for little red feather who owed a few thousand out to different grooms etc... ??? just remember reading about it... TRUTH of the matter is, YOU couldnt name 5% of trainers period, the Bafferts etc brought up in this thread ARE a JOKE< they make money... they are among the top trainers in the world... they make money... but how about the other 5,000+ trainers....

[Horseplayersbet.com]

you stating a trainer should only get paid when he wins is beyond comical, your brother must HATE you...

when a trainer receives a check from his owners, everyone gets paid first, whats left is yours... your help is on salary, SO THEY GET PAID FIRST... see DOZENS of guys pay 3 or 4 grooms a few hundred bucks a week, and not have any left for their pockets... why dont they just be a groom? TONS would be better off, but trainers ARE DREAMERS, you fight to stay alive in hopes of making money and getting those wins.... when you;re a crook, you put a few bucks in your pocket first and leave your grooms hanging... wasnt there an article written about the young trainer who trained for little red feather who owed a few thousand out to different grooms etc... ??? just remember reading about it... TRUTH of the matter is, YOU couldnt name 5% of trainers period, the Bafferts etc brought up in this thread ARE a JOKE< they make money... they are among the top trainers in the world... they make money... but how about the other 5,000+ trainers....

I know the scoop. Again, all trainers have their living expenses and families. Some or all of the expenses get paid throughout the year. Even if some of it gets paid, it means the trainer made money. It may feel like they made no money but they still made something.
Even if a trainer has personal living expenses of 20,000 a year, for most, that nut is covered.

And no, my brother doesn't hate me. He gets what I am saying. He might not agree 100%, but he gets it.

[ralph_the_cat]

I know the scoop. Again, all trainers have their living expenses and families. Some or all of the expenses get paid throughout the year. Even if some of it gets paid, it means the trainer made money. It may feel like they made no money but they still made something.
Even if a trainer has personal living expenses of 20,000 a year, for most, that nut is covered.

And no, my brother doesn't hate me. He gets what I am saying. He might not agree 100%, but he gets it.

If you knew the scoop, you would know that majority of trainers are retired from another job, have a GOOD woman behind them paying the mortgage, or are wealthy to begin with... For some reason, when some one brings up trainers, they bring up CA based trainers, and $100 day rates... that is less than 1% of trainers...

The only trainers I know really making a living off of wins are on a short list, and usually towards the top of the trainers standing.... know about 20X more that are retired, still work part time, have a wealth to begin with, married a weathly woman, do other work for other trainers, work at the track, pick up jocks books, own small farms where they get layup/boarding fees etc... and even those that live on dirt floors collecting SS and or disability... you say, even if they make $20,000 they are still making money... well, $20,000 might actually be a NEW HIGH for some... and covering expenses not included in day rates can take its toll... Know a guy that went to PID for the summer, had to rent a shit house for the summer, struggled to pay that rent and put food in his mouth, said he never sent a single $1 home to his wife... so ya, I guess he made money because he paid his way to live on the road, but the point being, if he put as much time into his local McDonalds, his family would be better off... you might even pocket a thousand a month after you pay all your stable help and costs... but then, like me last month, I bought a set of tires for a my dually, $1,100... month before my annual $300 registration card for the truck a year and a fuel pump for over $100, thankfully I installled it myself... saving a ton of $$$... should I bring up my $300 a month truck loan, or my $250 a month trailer loan... have my own small facility for layups I pay $2,000+ a year on taxes for the building... I need about 10 wins a year(10%for win), just to cover all of these unthinkable-costs that pop up... so the $20,000 that "owners" think I am putting in my pocket, go towards costs that I wouldnt have if I wasnt training...

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I get it now. Most trainers are gigolos. But seriously you aren't saying anything to contradict what I'm saying.

[ralph_the_cat]

I get it now. Most trainers are gigolos. But seriously you aren't saying anything to contradict what I'm saying.

no? did you hit your head?

Of course, I would expect you to try and say something like bla bla bla-Im right...

sleep good tonight... you know everything... you GET it...

[Horseplayersbet.com]

no? did you hit your head?

Of course, I would expect you to try and say something like bla bla bla-Im right...

sleep good tonight... you know everything... you GET it...
If someone makes 20,000 a year, it means they exist. No, they didn't pocket 20,000. But they made money training horses.

[ralph_the_cat]

If someone makes 20,000 a year, it means they exist. No, they didn't pocket 20,000. But they made money training horses.

oh, your logic is great...

cant believe you're even remotely involved in "running an actual business"... If you make $20,000 and you pay out $15,000+ a year in hotels, truck trailer loans, and maintenance, taxes etc... that is PART of your business expenses... thats not profit... its nothing... but of course, You still GET it right...

[Horseplayersbet.com]

oh, your logic is great...

cant believe you're even remotely involved in "running an actual business"... If you make $20,000 and you pay out $15,000+ a year in hotels, truck trailer loans, and maintenance, taxes etc... that is PART of your business expenses... thats not profit... its nothing... but of course, You still GET it right...
If you lived in hotels for half a year, training pays for your existence. Everyone has to live somewhere and it is what you earn that pays for it.

Yeah, I buy it Ralph. You are right. Most trainers make less than grooms. :lol:

[lamboguy]

hey ralph, speaking about trainers, my favorite trainer from the mountain is doing great. he has a bunch of 2yo's coming at you this year and he is loaded. he did well with the 2 he has from last year. he has another owner now other than myself who likes to play this game. lou is one of the most classiest gentleman that i have ever met. he always tells you the way it is and doesn't stretch the truth. he has been training a horse for me now for over a month and since the horse is on a eurocizer and no exercise rider he is charging me $10 a day less.

[Igeteven]

hey ralph, speaking about trainers, my favorite trainer from the mountain is doing great. he has a bunch of 2yo's coming at you this year and he is loaded. he did well with the 2 he has from last year. he has another owner now other than myself who likes to play this game. lou is one of the most classiest gentleman that i have ever met. he always tells you the way it is and doesn't stretch the truth. he has been training a horse for me now for over a month and since the horse is on a eurocizer and no exercise rider he is charging me $10 a day less.


Here in California, it's $3300 per month, yea, that's right Three Thousand 3 hundred per month per horse.

Now you know why purses are so high, and the owners pays day rights, yet, the trainers, pay nothing for the barn space. Some trainers have horses at the track that will never run for the season.

Again, who pays for it, the customer and the owner.

[ralph_the_cat]

If you lived in hotels for half a year, training pays for your existence. Everyone has to live somewhere and it is what you earn that pays for it.

Yeah, I buy it Ralph. You are right. Most trainers make less than grooms. :lol:

who said most...

pays for your existence??? how stupid is that, thats not called income...

you really need a lesson in business my friend... :lol:

[ralph_the_cat]

hey ralph, speaking about trainers, my favorite trainer from the mountain is doing great. he has a bunch of 2yo's coming at you this year and he is loaded. he did well with the 2 he has from last year. he has another owner now other than myself who likes to play this game. lou is one of the most classiest gentleman that i have ever met. he always tells you the way it is and doesn't stretch the truth. he has been training a horse for me now for over a month and since the horse is on a eurocizer and no exercise rider he is charging me $10 a day less.

Lou is a great guy, but his bad tests make me wonder about what is REALLY going on, still unclear what bad test he came up with at TDN a few years ago, maybe you know?... he got a few months for that one I believe... anyways... good luck, 2yos/3yos can be a thrill, hope one develops for you

[Horseplayersbet.com]

who said most...

pays for your existence??? how stupid is that, thats not called income...

you really need a lesson in business my friend... :lol:
Who said income?

I don't need a lesson in business. I know the score.

Let me put it this way. A groom goes to work for a trainer across the country. He pays for a motel room and has to have work done on his car so he can drive across the country and to and from the track.

The money he uses to do this was paid to him by the trainer for his work.

The groom still made money.

[ralph_the_cat]

Who said income?

I don't need a lesson in business. I know the score.

Let me put it this way. A groom goes to work for a trainer across the country. He pays for a motel room and has to have work done on his car so he can drive across the country and to and from the track.

The money he uses to do this was paid to him by the trainer for his work.

The groom still made money.

A groom would never drive across the country on his own paycheck, are you nuts?... the trainer would cover the grooms costs... you drift further and further away the more you talk... you should just stop replying...

[ralph_the_cat]

Who said income?


you said "making money" or he still "made money".... when you make money its called income... when you have businesses expenses, sometimes it results in no income... :faint:

[Horseplayersbet.com]

A groom would never drive across the country on his own paycheck, are you nuts?... the trainer would cover the grooms costs... you drift further and further away the more you talk... you should just stop replying...
Really? They never would? Really? Ok. I believe you.
And covering the groom's costs? You mean they give the groom free room and board but pay them the same as they would at a home track?

Look Ralph. Save the trainers make no money whine for the IRS. I aint buying it.

[Hanover1]

A groom would never drive across the country on his own paycheck, are you nuts?... the trainer would cover the grooms costs... you drift further and further away the more you talk... you should just stop replying...
Ironicly, I drove from Florida to NY, and PA for years as a groom, and it was on my dime, earned thru waged paid by the trainer. My own paycheck.....

[ralph_the_cat]

Really? They never would? Really? Ok. I believe you.
And covering the groom's costs? You mean they give the groom free room and board but pay them the same as they would at a home track?

Look Ralph. Save the trainers make no money whine for the IRS. I aint buying it.

Look Cangamble, save the I know everything bull for your sheep. If you knew anything about behind the scenes you would KNOW that grooms live in grooms quarters at the racetracks for virtually nothing... and if you paid your way to go to a track across the country to race a horse for a trainer, you are an idiot... who would be better off working at McDonalds... now, if you are to tell me you drove to another racetrack, BECAUSE you wanted to get work at another racetrack, that is up to you... but a trainer doesnt say, go to NY tomorrow, to walk a horse in the 5th race... make sure you have $300 in fuel... because Im not covering it...

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Look Cangamble, save the I know everything bull for your sheep. If you knew anything about behind the scenes you would KNOW that grooms live in grooms quarters at the racetracks for virtually nothing... and if you paid your way to go to a track across the country to race a horse for a trainer, you are an idiot... who would be better off working at McDonalds... now, if you are to tell me you drove to another racetrack, BECAUSE you wanted to get work at another racetrack, that is up to you... but a trainer doesnt say, go to NY tomorrow, to walk a horse in the 5th race... make sure you have $300 in fuel... because Im not covering it...
I don't want to argue anymore. But I can tell you that some tracks have no groom's quarters. I also know there are grooms that actually have cars and actually go to work at the track, and their cars sometimes needs work done, just like with trainers. Same with assistant trainers, etc.

But you are right. I know nothing. Nothing at all.

[ralph_the_cat]

I don't want to argue anymore. But I can tell you that some tracks have no groom's quarters. I also know there are grooms that actually have cars and actually go to work at the track, and their cars sometimes needs work done, just like with trainers. Same with assistant trainers, etc.

But you are right. I know nothing. Nothing at all.

of course you dont, but you always feel a need to say one more thing, you've taken this thread so far off track that we are talking about grooms owning cars... lol, everyone should and pretty much does have a car... and it needs worked on, just like every other car I've ever seen... your point?... I hope your not trying to compare that to the cost of a rig strictly used to haul horses etc... you fail to try and understand anything... any counter argument againt a trainer, you seem all for... then you want to sell your idea because your brother is a trainer and he totally understands... gimme a break...

[Hanover1]

Look Cangamble, save the I know everything bull for your sheep. If you knew anything about behind the scenes you would KNOW that grooms live in grooms quarters at the racetracks for virtually nothing... and if you paid your way to go to a track across the country to race a horse for a trainer, you are an idiot... who would be better off working at McDonalds... now, if you are to tell me you drove to another racetrack, BECAUSE you wanted to get work at another racetrack, that is up to you... but a trainer doesnt say, go to NY tomorrow, to walk a horse in the 5th race... make sure you have $300 in fuel... because Im not covering it...
First off, your scenario regarding a trainer to tell a groom to drive cross country to walk a horse aint gonna happen...try another REALISTIC approach. Its a tax writeoff for the caretakers when they pay for fuel, so no loss there. Most of them ride with the horses anyways, with the exception of those that set up the barns prior to horses arriving, and YES, that is paid for. Furthermore, most grooms are comitted enough to go wherever the horse goes, car or no car......stay focused or realistic expenses........

[Hanover1]

I don't want to argue anymore. But I can tell you that some tracks have no groom's quarters. I also know there are grooms that actually have cars and actually go to work at the track, and their cars sometimes needs work done, just like with trainers. Same with assistant trainers, etc.

But you are right. I know nothing. Nothing at all.
In light of a recent fire at Lebanon Raceway, many grooms must stay off track, as there are no grooms quarters built...this is correct. I recall SEVERAL summers where a motel was the only option when grooming. First to mind is the Red Mile in Lexington-no quarters for the help. On several other tracks, if you shippen in late, or only had a few horses, or 1 stake horse, such as myself, it was either find a stall and don't get caught bunking in said stall, or pony up the cash for motel.....Who is this guy you are debating, and what did his brother ever teach him about how things are at ground zero?