Stronach: No surface change

[Kimsus]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/111144.html

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Oh oh. I hope Andy didn't hurt anyone when he hurled his desk out of his office window.

[cj]

I prefer dirt to synthetics, but changing back to dirt at this time would be a financial disaster.

[bisket]

sorry andy. i'm happy about this though. i've been making tons of cash on horses going from dirt to poly, and vice versa. i've been able to do lots of work to the house due to poly track. i just hope we're past this poly is the same as dirt bullsit that cal racing has been trying to shove down the fans throat.

[bisket]

this let the tracks run races at the same time and see who provides the best product is absolutely hillarious though. :lol:
this guy doesn't have a clue :lol:

[Charlie D]

I think i can understand where Frank is coming from and i think he is right there should be "Free enterprise"

That includes ADW's, an Exchange stateside, bettor can bet anywhere, anytime he//she chooses

[Charlie D]

this let the tracks run races at the same time and see who provides the best product is absolutely hillarious though. :lol:


Tracks in UK do this with no problems.

[bisket]

when can't a bettor bet when he chooses. unless of course you want to bet after the race has begun. although thats totally not out of the question anyhow :D

[Charlie D]

I can't bet into SA pools bisket, so if Frank wants " Free enterprise" lets have it for every interested party.

[point given]

this let the tracks run races at the same time and see who provides the best product is absolutely hillarious though. :lol:
this guy doesn't have a clue :lol:

What, ya dont like 3 horse races ? Whatsa matta wityu.:bang:

[Horseplayersbet.com]

when can't a bettor bet when he chooses. unless of course you want to bet after the race has begun. although thats totally not out of the question anyhow :D
Try making a bet on the internet if you are an Arizona resident for example.

[Buckeye]

Free Enterprise is just a dream at this point. Taxes killed it.

[Charlie D]

Try making a bet on the internet if you are an Arizona resident for example.

Good point HPB


That is the kind of thing the Frank and the horsemens " racing charter" needs to address.

[andymays]

That's it for me! I love his quotes. What a friggin loon. :ThmbDown:

Next he's going for a raise in the take! :ThmbDown:

http://www.drf.com/news/article/111144.html

Excerpt:

Stronach, a breeder and owner, does not campaign his horses in California, other than Mast Track, who is expected to run Saturday in the Santa Anita Handicap. Stronach, who has a home in Canada, was asked why he does not race in California.

"First of all, it's a long way out here," he said.

He also is not satisfied with the surface, and said he stopped racing in California after the synthetic surface mandate.

"I would have horses out here if it's free enterprise," he said. "Free enterprise means I would have a different racing surface to attract horse owners."

[Tom]

Stronach said that to replace the main track under current conditions would be "throwing money down in an open pit"

Gee, that would be no big deal at Santa Anita....nothing DRAINS there anyway! :lol:

[Buckeye]

and special interests. In New Jersey you have a choice, bet with us or go F yourself. The choices are rather limited.

[bisket]

Try making a bet on the internet if you are an Arizona resident for example.
what's that have to do with santa anita, hollywood, golden gate, and del mar all holding their meet at the same time. each race will have 2 horses in it. although if i were a horseman i'd go for that alright. :lol:
you need to get some dems in there. they'd love the tax money from wagering.

[Charlie D]

US bettors should be able to do as i can with UK racing, log onto the ADW of choice and bet the track you want be it Socal, Florida, NYRA or timbuktoo.



This is "Free enterprise"

[bisket]

well all this would require the federal govment getting involved. as currently situated racing is a state by state enterprise. i would welcome all this. as long as horseman get their piece of the pie. right now when you bet on adw none of it goes to the horseman. which is the biggest problem right now in the industry by a longshot.

[bdownes]

Bisket.. The horsemen do receiver money from ADW's. The horsemen in each state can essentially block a track's signal from going out out of state.

[Charlie D]

Up to the Frank's, Youbets, Twinspires, horsemens groups, HANA to get together and get stuck in.


Got to show gov Gambling is BIG business and there is millions of dollars in tax to be had, jobs to be saved and created if "Free enterprise" were allowed.

[BluegrassProf]

That's it for me! I love his quotes. What a friggin loon. :ThmbDown: I'm with ya, my man. Bats in the belfry.

I know it's terrible karma to hope for the ultimate dissolution of CA racing, but perhaps a cataclysmic event - in this case, a terrible decision - is needed for new growth to take root.

Just a shame it'll be at such an enormous expense.

[letswastemoney]

How much did the Pro-Ride people pay him off to come to this conclusion?

[bisket]

Bisket.. The horsemen do receiver money from ADW's. The horsemen in each state can essentially block a track's signal from going out out of state.
they don't recieve any money from adw's. what do you think the whole deal with the derby card was about last year? horseman only recieve money if you go to your state track and bet there. for instance: if i go to pimlico and bet a race at santa anita the horseman get their percentage of my wager returned to them in purse money. if you got to xpressbet (magna's adw) and bet on santa anita. xpressbet, santa anita (yes magna double dips on this), and the state of california split that money. none, nada, zilch goes to the horseman!!!!!

[Deepsix]

Bisket, where did you learn of this?

[bisket]

i was under the impression its common knowledge.

[toussaud]

watching socal racing is like watching the Los Angeles clippers. I mean.. you just feel so helpless. everyone knows what the problem is yet no one can do something about it.

I mean he could have left well enough alone by just saying no. was that free enterprise crap really called for?

Do you REALLY want Hollywood park running derby preps the same time you are running derby preps? yes let's see which track gets the most triple crown hopefuls.

He is seriously.. and i'm not exaggerating. the worst thing that has happened to racing in the last 30 years. worst the lasix, worse than anything else. he has managed to screw up an sport from sea to shining sea.

horse racing cant' get the man out of power fast enough

[Kimsus]

From what I gathered from his comments, racing surface was probably the 3rd or 4th priority on his list of things he wanted to discuss with CA horseman.

[FenceBored]

they don't recieve any money from adw's. what do you think the whole deal with the derby card was about last year? horseman only recieve money if you go to your state track and bet there. for instance: if i go to pimlico and bet a race at santa anita the horseman get their percentage of my wager returned to them in purse money. if you got to xpressbet (magna's adw) and bet on santa anita. xpressbet, santa anita (yes magna double dips on this), and the state of california split that money. none, nada, zilch goes to the horseman!!!!!


Wrongo, Mary Lou.

The THG, emboldened by an agreement between the Kentucky Horsemen’s Benevolent and Protection Association and Ellis Park by which the track is giving horsemen at least 6% of ADW revenue from handle on the track’s races, issued a release July 9 saying an even split of ADW revenue benefits horsemen and tracks. The group took issue with statements by Chris Scherf, executive vice president of the TRA, after Ellis Park owner Ron Geary announced July 2 he was closing the track.
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/46063/thg-to-racetracks-lets-meet-on-adw

[horses4courses]

Tracks in UK do this with no problems.

I'm confused, Charlie.

The scheduled race times are staggered specifically with betting shops throughout the UK in mind. It works well, as punters over there with you tend to prefer hooking up multiple wagers, often at different tracks.
Only on busy days, with quite a few UK tracks running, do the scheduled times overlap. The major tracks, with the best races, co-operate to some degree so as not to have their big races go off at the same time.

I wish the major tracks in the US put more thought into their scheduled post times, especially with stakes races on busy days.
Far too often, there are key races on a Saturday going off at about the same time. Makes little sense, in this day of widespread simulcasting and online wagering. A little forethought would increase betting revenue slightly.
I well know, that is too much to ask for........

[bisket]

ok one track gives money to horseman from adw's. what about the rest of them.......

[Horseplayersbet.com]

ok one track gives money to horseman from adw's. what about the rest of them.......
Most tracks that I know of split the host track fee amongst the track and the purse account.
Name one that doesn't.

[bisket]

yes when you bet at a track!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not when you bet adw!!!!!!

[Horseplayersbet.com]

yes when you bet at a track!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not when you bet adw!!!!!!
Where do you get this from? Name one group of horsemen who get no cut from signal fees charged to ADWs.

[bisket]

you guys truly don't have a clue.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

you guys truly don't have a clue.
Since you do. Name one track where horsemen get nothing from bets on their track from an ADW. Just one.

[bisket]

ALL OF THEM!!!!!

[Horseplayersbet.com]

ALL OF THEM!!!!!
What planet are you on? What horsemen's group would agree to get nothing on bets made through ADWs?

You are totally misinformed.

[Charlie D]

I'm confused, Charlie.

The scheduled race times are staggered specifically with betting shops throughout the UK in mind. It works well, as punters over there with you tend to prefer hooking up multiple wagers, often at different tracks.
Only on busy days, with quite a few UK tracks running, do the scheduled times overlap. The major tracks, with the best races, co-operate to some degree so as not to have their big races go off at the same time.

I wish the major tracks in the US put more thought into their scheduled post times, especially with stakes races on busy days.
Far too often, there are key races on a Saturday going off at about the same time. Makes little sense, in this day of widespread simulcasting and online wagering. A little forethought would increase betting revenue slightly.
I well know, that is too much to ask for........

The tracks decide when to race.You will get two tracks in close proximity to each other racing on same day, with staggered off times as you stated to try and avoid clashing and give bettors time to get thier bets on.

Sometimes a delay at one track will mean race clashes with another or on busy days they can clash too.

[bisket]

What planet are you on? What horsemen's group would agree to get nothing on bets made through ADWs?

You are totally misinformed.
if that makes you go away than yes i'm misinformed. did you read the article fencebored posted. don't you think its peculiar that its news when a track decides to share the proceeds with the horseman. if this was regular practice that wouldn't be news dontcha think? :rolleyes:

[Horseplayersbet.com]

if that makes you go away than yes i'm misinformed. did you read the article fencebored posted. don't you think its peculiar that its news when a track decides to share the proceeds with the horseman. if this was regular practice that wouldn't be news dontcha think? :rolleyes:
Read this article:
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/27518563/

Seriously, you are totally misinformed.
The usual contract between horsemen and tracks is they split the fees down the middle.

Jack Liebau, the president of the company that operates Hollywood Park and a director of Youbet.com, complained this week that the horsemen's position of seeking one-third of the revenue from bets made through account-wagering (or advance-deposit wagering) companies was inconsistent with what the groups were willing to accept from other betting sites, such as offshore rebaters.


"The rebaters are paying at most 7 percent, and horsemen get half of that, or 3.5 percent," Liebau said. "I have a very hard time understanding why the rebaters should get a lower price than the ADW companies. I don't understand the equity argument they are making at all, when you have such a difference across the board on how signals are being priced."

BTW, if you understood the other article posted, it was about the horsemen at Ellis wanting too much of a cut.

[joanied]

That's it for me! I love his quotes. What a friggin loon. :ThmbDown:

Next he's going for a raise in the take! :ThmbDown:

http://www.drf.com/news/article/111144.html

Excerpt:

Stronach, a breeder and owner, does not campaign his horses in California, other than Mast Track, who is expected to run Saturday in the Santa Anita Handicap. Stronach, who has a home in Canada, was asked why he does not race in California.

"First of all, it's a long way out here," he said.

He also is not satisfied with the surface, and said he stopped racing in California after the synthetic surface mandate.

"I would have horses out here if it's free enterprise," he said. "Free enterprise means I would have a different racing surface to attract horse owners."

andy...:mad: :( :faint: :bang: :mad: this really f****ing sucks...did you take a valium:D

...seriously though, Frankie boy didn't really say anything...like a politician...and IMO, it's his financial woes that made this decision for him...and his woes are self induced...this so called brilliant business man allowed his ego to get in the way of good judgment...he bit off more than he could chew...and now he's choking on it.
I am really pissed off about this andymays...I hope SA never gets to host another BC...I hope more trainers choose not to run on that Pro Ride...I hope it bites Frankie boy right in his a$$...can't recall who posted that he is one of the worst things to happen in racing...but I agree 100%.

Well, andymays...I guess that dance we were going to do together on the new surface ain't gonna happen :faint: ...

[FenceBored]

if that makes you go away than yes i'm misinformed. did you read the article fencebored posted. don't you think its peculiar that its news when a track decides to share the proceeds with the horseman. if this was regular practice that wouldn't be news dontcha think? :rolleyes:

Oy, Bisket, hold on a sec here. Look at who you're debating (not me, the other guy). He runs an ADW. I be thinkin' he knows what he's paying for signals, and has a good idea of who on the other end is getting a split.

But, if you need more proof. Here's a search thg site:bloodhorse.com (http://www.google.com/search?q=thg+site%3Abloodhorse.com) that will give you a lot of articles on the Thoroughbred Horsemen's Group, a alliance of state horsemen's groups founded for the express purpose of increasing the percentage of takeout ADW companies pay into the horsemen's purse accounts, via both increased host fees and Source Market Fees. It's a mess, but one thing is clear, the horsemen at the track whose signal you're betting on always get at some of the handle (and I dare say never less than if you went to another track or OTB to place the wager). The amount your local horsemen might see from a wager you place on a distant signal is another kettle of fish altogether (and a major bone of contention for the THG).

[DeanT]

Frank seems to be doing some interesting posturing. It will be interesting to see if he gains concessions.

I have to have a chuckle at Cali racing. It is human nature of course, but when things are going well not a word is said about a change, other than some back patting about how they were smart. Then when things go bad, everyone seems to say the opposite and look for something to blame.

Poly has been a poster child for that. You would think now, with business down, everyone hated it. When things were going well? Ah, not so much.

You'd also think that maybe, just maybe, they would try to attack many of the real problems in California, instead of focusing on a red herring like the track surface, but nope, just the same old same old.

I hope they learn that increases of handle was not because of what horses are running on, and decreases in handle are not because of what horses are running on. It is who is running the horses that matter.

Some classic articles on the poly-madness from years ago. Almost as bad, or maybe even worse than the demagoguery of today.

OAK TREE POSTS SIGNIFICANT GAINS IN HANDLE, FIELD SIZE WITH NEW CUSHION TRACK SURFACE

Cushion Track, which was installed over the summer at a cost of more than $10 million, was responsible along with other Southern California synthetics, for a substantive increase in the active horse inventory, resulting in 8.9 runners per race, up from last year’s 8.2.

CUSHION TRACK GENERATES DRAMATIC INCREASE IN FIELD SIZE, MAJOR BOOST IN HANDLE AT HOLLYWOOD PARK’S AUTUMN MEET

INGLEWOOD, Calif. (Dec. 18, 2006) — Bigger fields, safer racing, larger purses and increased handle were the theme as Hollywood Park completed its first meeting Monday with its new synthetic surface — Cushion Track.

Cushion Track, installed on the 1 1/8-mile main track at a cost of more than $8 million following the Spring/Summer Meet, was overwhelmingly accepted by horsemen as significantly larger fields helped generate a 19 percent increase in wagering on Hollywood Park races as well as handle increases across the board.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

But, if you need more proof. Here's a search thg site:bloodhorse.com (http://www.google.com/search?q=thg+site%3Abloodhorse.com) that will give you a lot of articles on the Thoroughbred Horsemen's Group, a alliance of state horsemen's groups founded for the express purpose of increasing the percentage of takeout ADW companies pay into the horsemen's purse accounts, via both increased host fees and Source Market Fees.

C'mon!

Why lets facts get in the way of what bisket was saying.

I'm sure bisket's just repeating what he's heard as indisputable fact from many horsemen.

[bisket]

yes this article says there was a dispute, but the horsemans group lost!!!

[Horseplayersbet.com]

yes this article says there was a dispute, but the horsemans group lost!!!
When horsemen groups "lose" it means they didn't get as much as they wanted, it doesn't mean they got nothing.

[Charlie D]

Dean

Can you tell us the real "problems" in Calafornia as Frank seems not to be saying anything again just like in his radio interview the other day.

[startngate]

Amazing that a member with so many posts can be so mis-informed about the simple economics of racing ... and yes, I'm talking about bisket.

At every racetrack, the track signs a horsemen's agreement with the horsemen's organization that represents the majority of horsemen racing at that track. Among the provisions is the distribution of all funds received by the track derived from wagering on the races. In most cases the split is 50%/50% but in some cases it can move a point or so in either direction. The share the horsemen receive go to purses, and in some cases breeder's awards.

The funds received by the track include funds from wagering on-track, host fees from any outlet taking the signal (including all ADW's), any source market fees received from ADW's and slot revenue at those tracks that have them. All of those revenues get lumped together and are split according to the contract.

While the THG might have 'lost' their war, they did in fact win several battles and as a result host fees for ADW's have gone up at many tracks, which did result in purses rising. Plenty of evidence of that during the last couple of years when total handle went down and purses went up ... a combination of the higher host fees and added slot revenues.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

While the THG might have 'lost' their war, they did in fact win several battles and as a result host fees for ADW's have gone up at many tracks, which did result in purses rising. Plenty of evidence of that during the last couple of years when total handle went down and purses went up ... a combination of the higher host fees and added slot revenues.
I believe purses were down slightly last year. Nobody is winning.
When host fees go up, rebate players are squeezed, and it isn't just whales who are affected anymore.
The biggest growth area right now is ADWs and rebates are a big reason why. The squeeze is causing players to play less and some are quitting or taking very long vacations. This does not bode well for the future.
You need players betting constantly....this gets their friend and families exposed to horse racing. Prices need to come down, not go up at this time.

[startngate]

I believe purses were down slightly last year. Nobody is winning.
When host fees go up, rebate players are squeezed, and it isn't just whales who are affected anymore.
The biggest growth area right now is ADWs and rebates are a big reason why. The squeeze is causing players to play less and some are quitting or taking very long vacations. This does not bode well for the future.
You need players betting constantly....this gets their friend and families exposed to horse racing. Prices need to come down, not go up at this time.Yes they were, but not as much as they could have been had growth in the ADW space not helped prop it up.

I agree completely that no one is winning. Raising of host fee rates definitely hurts the rebate player, and also players in general because you will never get the horsemen to agree to lower the rates now, and therefore it's almost impossible to lower overall takeout.

That's one of the reasons my posts were so critical of the THG and what they were trying to do at the time it was all going on. They were trying to split the pie three ways, and totally ignoring the fourth entity that should have been at the table, the players. Everyone in this industry seems to be trying to gain a bigger piece of a smaller pie, and is wondering why it's not working.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Total purses were down over 10% in January, though they had 7% less race dates.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Raising of host fee rates definitely hurts the rebate player, and also players in general because you will never get the horsemen to agree to lower the rates now, and therefore it's almost impossible to lower overall takeout.

The host fee increases need to be a priority issue for HANA and horseplayers to fight. It's amazing that nobody seems to understand how important this issue is.

[bisket]

Amazing that a member with so many posts can be so mis-informed about the simple economics of racing ... and yes, I'm talking about bisket.

At every racetrack, the track signs a horsemen's agreement with the horsemen's organization that represents the majority of horsemen racing at that track. Among the provisions is the distribution of all funds received by the track derived from wagering on the races. In most cases the split is 50%/50% but in some cases it can move a point or so in either direction. The share the horsemen receive go to purses, and in some cases breeder's awards.

The funds received by the track include funds from wagering on-track, host fees from any outlet taking the signal (including all ADW's), any source market fees received from ADW's and slot revenue at those tracks that have them. All of those revenues get lumped together and are split according to the contract.

While the THG might have 'lost' their war, they did in fact win several battles and as a result host fees for ADW's have gone up at many tracks, which did result in purses rising. Plenty of evidence of that during the last couple of years when total handle went down and purses went up ... a combination of the higher host fees and added slot revenues.
yes they split money bet at the tracks. money from adw's are not split with the horseman. and yes the poster that owns an adw is corrrect the horseman didn't get what they wanted. yes it is correct that horseman do get some purse money from adw's but its nowhere near the same amount as they get if you wager at the track!!!!!!! one of the big reasons purses have been declining is because more and more money is wagered on the internet. most of which is not given to purses.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

yes they split money bet at the tracks. money from adw's are not split with the horseman. and yes the poster that owns an adw is corrrect the horseman didn't get what they wanted. yes it is correct that horseman do get some purse money from adw's but its nowhere near the same amount as they get if you wager at the track!!!!!!! one of the big reasons purses have been declining is because more and more money is wagered on the internet. most of which is not given to purses.
Money is split from money bet at ADWs with the horsemen, many times 50-50, sometimes the track gets more and sometimes the horsemen get more. This is fact.

Secondly, in many cases, ADWs pay more for the signals than tracks do, and in those cases, host track horsemen get more money per bet on their track from ADWs than they do if the wager was made at the guest track, however when a bet is made on another track at a race track, the bulk of the takeout money stays at the track the bet was made, so the horsemen of the guest track benefit more in this instance than if the bet was made at an ADW.

Please stop talking like an authority. Whoever taught you, is clueless. :bang: :bang: :bang:

[johnhannibalsmith]

...Please stop talking like an authority. Whoever taught you, is clueless. :bang: :bang: :bang:

Perhaps rfozzard???... Jeremy Simms???

[pandy]

I've never been able to understand why S.A. just didn't duplicate the Hollywood Park Cushion Track, drainage and all, when they first started to have problems. Hollywood Park is one of the best synthetic surfaces and it drains.

[FenceBored]

I've never been able to understand why S.A. just didn't duplicate the Hollywood Park Cushion Track, drainage and all, when they first started to have problems. Hollywood Park is one of the best synthetic surfaces and it drains.

That's exactly what they originally contracted for.

The lawsuit claims the defendants, who include company directors Philip Bond and Paul Harper, failed to produce a track “identical” to the Cushion Track surface installed at Hollywood Park, as defined by contractual terms, and later breached its warranty by not fixing or replacing the defective material.
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/45464/cushion-track-sued-for-sa-surface-issues

[DeanT]

That's one of the reasons my posts were so critical of the THG and what they were trying to do at the time it was all going on. They were trying to split the pie three ways, and totally ignoring the fourth entity that should have been at the table, the players. Everyone in this industry seems to be trying to gain a bigger piece of a smaller pie, and is wondering why it's not working.

We have spoken about this for some time now. I believe that it would have been even worse if players had not lent their voice to the chorus. All we have to look at was some of the Pope pieces on Paulick. If fees go up like they wanted, and what some places are striving for, handle will be below $8B in a year or two (imo).

[Igeteven]

Dean

Can you tell us the real "problems" in Calafornia as Frank seems not to be saying anything again just like in his radio interview the other day.

I tell you the truth

The tracks are losing their ass, customers are leaving and not coming back.

when a new players looses the first time, he is mad as hell, one can't really handicap the track, one doesn't return.

Out here, it is for the track, by the track , of the track, customers don't mean a damn thing.

Also, people can bet all over the internet, drugs problems, horsemen races, the track mutilates the card to suit them.

There are so many reasons to quit California, these are a few

[toussaud]

igoteven hit the nail on the head.

it doesn't matter if the track is the actual reason the guy on the rail can't hit a ticket.

the only thing that matters is that his perception of the reason he is not winning.. Handicappers think very highly of themselves,sometimes too much so. All it takes is for him or her to think they can do better if it weren't for this synthetic (which is usually the case actually) for them to call it a day, stats and logic be damned.


Willingness to change is a strength, even if it means plunging part of the company into total confusion for a while.
Jack Welch


jack welch, stronach is not.

[OntheRail]

Free Enterprise is just a dream at this point. Taxes killed it.
And TARP was the Funeral.

[andymays]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2010/03/say-what-santa-anita-isnt-getting-rid-of-proride.html

Excerpt:

Most importantly, he says he's not going to spend millions more under current business conditions. Does that mean every time it rains, he's going to risk the track having to cancel races because it won't drain properly? Already, five days have been washed out this meeting because of the surface.
It was announced earlier this year that the track would replace its Pro-Ride surface at the end of the meeting in April. Now that's off.

[PaceAdvantage]

Hasn't Mr. Stronach already proven beyond a doubt that he is not part of any solution for racing's problems?

A quick look at the historical MECA stock chart over the years tells you all you need to know....oooops...I'm sorry...not MECA anymore...need to quote MECAQ.PK for the dreaded PINK SHEET listings of bankrupted companies...

Hey Karl, Magna's trading at 15 cents...time to scoop up more shares, no?