John Shirreffs to send Zardana from California to face Rachel at Fair Grounds

[andymays]

http://www.nola.com/horseracing/index.ssf/2010/02/trainer_john_shirreffs_to_send.html

Excerpt:

Trainer John Shirreffs, who is preparing Zenyatta for a showdown with Rachel Alexandra in the Apple Blossom at Oaklawn Park, has another “Z’’ mare to run against her at the Fair Grounds.

Rachel Alexandra, the 2009 Horse of the Year, heads the nominees for the $200,000 New Orleans Ladies, a new mile-and-a-sixteenth race to be run March 13 at the Fair Grounds. The race, which will be her first since she won the Woodward in September at Saratoga, will be her prep for the Apple Blossom on April 9.

The 6-year-old mare Zardana, a Grade II winner trained by Shirreffs in California, is among the other 15 older fillies and mares nominated to the New Orleans Ladies.

Excerpt:

Concerning the possibility that Zardana is coming to New Orleans to make Rachel Alexandra work before the Apple Blossom, Shirreffs laughed at the suggestion. But he did say that he and Zetcher are aware that people will speculate about why Zardana is coming to town.

“I said to Mr. Zetcher, ‘Oh no, here we go,’’’ Shirreffs said.


http://www.nola.com/horseracing/index.ssf/2010/02/trainer_john_shirreffs_to_send.html

[joanied]

Well, John is right about that...and she will put pressure on Rachel, IMO...I am really in hopes that both Rachel & Zenyatta get an 'easy prep'...but with Zardana in there, IMO, Rachel will have to work just a little bit :)

MYGOD, can anyone imagine what would happen if the 2 mares lost their preps:( :faint: :( ....gives me a headache just to think of the possibility...

[BluegrassProf]

Sheriffs and connections send a horse - for example, a speedy one that's trying new ground just for this particular go - to Rachel Alexandra's race, and it's lauded as sportsmanly and innovative; Steve A. and connections do something similar, and it'd be condemned as treacherous and unfair, bordering on deviant.

Issues of the race aside, the constructions of these two groups is a picture of absurdity, and stuff like this puts it all in sharp relief.

It's far more transparent than Sheriffs thinks. :bang:

[Charlie D]

Looks like it's a send in B team and lets see what we can learn from it for the Big one.

:)

[DJofSD]

Looks like it's a send in B team and lets see what we can learn from it for the Big one.

:)
I agree.

[Dahoss9698]

I don't really think Zardana will make Rachel Alexandra work at all. If the connections of Zardana decide they are going to gun for the lead, that'll help out RA. She ran much better last year when she had a target. If they decide to rate off of RA, she can't keep up. Where is Zardana's good race?

[PhantomOnTour]

The way this whole Rachel-Zen thing is heading is making me pray for a huge upset in the Apple Blossom.

[the little guy]

Maybe Zardana will pummel Rachel, cause Rachel to miss the Apple Blossom, and then Zenyatta will have to compete for a $500K purse....and not $5 million.

And, finally, Bambera will then beat her.

[letswastemoney]

Zardana could be a monster. We just haven't been able to see it because of synthetics.

[Kimsus]

Except for Dahoss, you Rachel fans have a strange way of showing confidence in your HOY. Wow is all I have to say.. or how about this one.... :rolleyes:

[Hanover1]

Come one, come all. Step right up and see the show.....
I don't read anything alarming in this declaration. Perhaps nothing more than a good fit for this mare? I hope she DOES challeng RA-she could use the excersize.......knock some of the dust off, clear the cobwebs. This entry hits the board on the bottom of a tri if lucky.......

[Spalding No!]

MYGOD, can anyone imagine what would happen if the 2 mares lost their preps.

One of two things:

(1) There would be 4 legitimate contenders running for $5 million in the Apple Blossom

or

(2) We wouldn't have to suffer through part 3 of Steve Haskin's Apple Blossom die-already.

[bisket]

from the way the race is looking it may be pretty sporting of them to send zarana. from the way it looks it may just be zardana and rachel running in the race.

[BluegrassProf]

Except for Dahoss, you Rachel fans have a strange way of showing confidence in your HOY. Wow is all I have to say.. or how about this one.... :rolleyes:I try so hard not to throw out individual insults, but GAAAH. Can you honestly - and I mean honestly - not give it a rest? Is it a compulsion, or delusional drive of some kind that forces your fingers moving and keys typing?

Dim little bulb. Allow me to explain, at very least, my comment, as I assume you lump me into the "RA fanclub."

Most will clearly point out the issue is not this particular horse as a factor in the prep; it's the way the game's being played.

If you're all for it, by all means, say "Well-played, Mr. S." In that case, cling to no transparent claims that entering in the race has no collateral benefit (either as a speedball, a test of fitness or gauge of preparedness, as previously suggested, or whatever, if such a benefit even exists at all).

In addition - and this is particularly important - I suggest that you quickly concede that the voluminous mouthpieces from the other side of the fence - yourself included, no doubt - would be rattling the cage with cries of "Jackson's a dirtbag," pointing fingers of conspiracy and immorality had the shoe been on the other foot and Rachel A.'s connections were calling the same play.

Again (and again and again, I've no doubt), IMO, it's not that Zardana is going to have a significant impact on the prep. For me, it really comes down to the laughable disparity between characterizations of Jackson and the Mosses, and of Steve A. and Johnny S.

Very, VERY simple. Appropriately.

Personally, I take little issue with the horse showing up; I see little overall impact on the race itself, in fact (perhaps a 2/3spot, as Hanover suggested?). But the point is moot.

Now on a serious note: Please, Kimmy...please, stop with the black & white RA vs. Z thing you're so consistently drumming up. I'd guess that most here are, in reality, not so simple - either personally, or in the way they look at racehorses. I hate to even acknowledge that kind of post, but yikes...I'll give in, just this once. :p

Seriously: please.

[Moyers Pond]

from the way the race is looking it may be pretty sporting of them to send zarana. from the way it looks it may just be zardana and rachel running in the race.

Well most of Rachel's wins are against 3 and 4 horse fields of claimers anyway. :lol:

[BluegrassProf]

Well most of Rachel's wins are against 3 and 4 horse fields of claimers anyway. :lol:
And the tails-side of the ridiculous coin has landed. So goes another thread.

:bang:

[TJDave]

"Shirreffs said that a reason for sending Zardana to New Orleans is the lack of opportunities for older fillies and mares at Santa Anita. The meet’s last stakes race for older females on the synthetic surface is the Grade I Santa Margarita on March 13, and that race will be Zenyatta’s prep for the Apple Blossom."

I guess that's why 'Life is Sweet' is going to Dubai...Not Arkansas. ;)

[Hanover1]

"Dim little bulb"....post of the day :lol:

[Kimsus]

I try so hard not to throw out individual insults, but GAAAH. Can you honestly - and I mean honestly - not give it a rest? Is it a compulsion, or delusional drive of some kind that forces your fingers moving and keys typing?

Dim little bulb. Allow me to explain, at very least, my comment, as I assume you lump me into the "RA fanclub."

Most will clearly point out the issue is not this particular horse as a factor in the prep; it's the way the game's being played.

If you're all for it, by all means, say "Well-played, Mr. S." In that case, cling to no transparent claims that entering in the race has no collateral benefit (either as a speedball, a test of fitness or gauge of preparedness, as previously suggested, or whatever, if such a benefit even exists at all).

In addition - and this is particularly important - I suggest that you quickly concede that the voluminous mouthpieces from the other side of the fence - yourself included, no doubt - would be rattling the cage with cries of "Jackson's a dirtbag," pointing fingers of conspiracy and immorality had the shoe been on the other foot and Rachel A.'s connections were calling the same play.

Again (and again and again, I've no doubt), IMO, it's not that Zardana is going to have a significant impact on the prep. For me, it really comes down to the laughable disparity between characterizations of Jackson and the Mosses, and of Steve A. and Johnny S.

Very, VERY simple. Appropriately.

Personally, I take little issue with the horse showing up; I see little overall impact on the race itself, in fact (perhaps a 2/3spot, as Hanover suggested?). But the point is moot.

Now on a serious note: Please, Kimmy...please, stop with the black & white RA vs. Z thing you're so consistently drumming up. I'd guess that most here are, in reality, not so simple - either personally, or in the way they look at racehorses. I hate to even acknowledge that kind of post, but yikes...I'll give in, just this once. :p

Seriously: please.

I'm going to not respond to the I don't know what to call it stuff you mentioned except to say you have a gift for words...though too numerous to painstakenly reply to all. Howver this is what I think is likely, this is not a grand plan to sabotage Rachel as I think you not so quietly inferred to in your 1st post. Zardana is no threat of any kind to Rachel in the race, the fact that she is owned by a different owner and not Moss should be a major clue.
It is more likely Sheriff's is using this as a dress rehearsal for the next time he ships in with Zenyatta. It's a smart move to personally gauge how the track is playing and so forth. So I guess we do indeed agree but I don't know why you didn't just say that in the 1st place, instead of implying this was somehow a devious plot by Sheriff's and Co.

[Hanover1]

Has it not been made clear yet that this is a good fit for this mare, and nothing more?

[OTM Al]

And the tails-side of the ridiculous coin has landed. So goes another thread.

:bang:

And to think this Christine Daae is supposed to be this year's Rachel. I freakin' confused now. Does he like this horse or not?

[sandpit]

I guess that's why 'Life is Sweet' is going to Dubai...Not Arkansas. ;)

St. Trinians to the Big Cap, Life is Sweet the DWC, Zenyatta in the BCC, Rachel the Preakness, etc...all of them going where the big $$$ is with the boys not having any standouts.

[TJDave]

Is there a reason to believe that 'St Trinians', if she came out of the Cap well, wouldn't race in the Apple Blossom?

Nominations will still be open. How could they refuse her a spot?

[Dahoss9698]

Is there a reason to believe that 'St Trinians', if she came out of the Cap well, wouldn't race in the Apple Blossom?

Nominations will still be open. How could they refuse her a spot?

Trainer has said on more than one occasion that she will stay on synthetic. I agree though. If she were to run big in the Big Cap, it's going to be difficult to avoid a $5 million race, especially if she comes out of it well.

[tzipi]

Well most of Rachel's wins are against 3 and 4 horse fields of claimers anyway. :lol:

Preakness,Oaks,Woodward,Haskell claimers :D . This guys a genius!

[Spalding No!]

"Shirreffs said that a reason for sending Zardana to New Orleans is the lack of opportunities for older fillies and mares at Santa Anita. The meet’s last stakes race for older females on the synthetic surface is the Grade I Santa Margarita on March 13, and that race will be Zenyatta’s prep for the Apple Blossom."

What a garbage excuse. First off, the Fair Grounds race is the same day as the Santa Margarita. Secondly, Zardana is a multiple stakes winner in this country on the turf. Santa Anita, aside from its 3yo program, historically emphasizes turf the second half of the meet (following its centerpiece, the Big Cap). The Buena Vista (8f), Santa Ana (9f), and Santa Barbara (10f) accomodate the distaff division beyond the Santa Margarita.

For my money, this is just another owner (Arnold Zetcher), alongside Marty Wygod (Life Is Sweet) and Terry Finely (Macho Again), feeling left out of the Zenyatta-Rachel Alexandra rivalry and doing something a bit ass-backwards to get a little press.

Its interesting that so far the 1-2-4 runners from the prep for the Santa Margarita are avoiding the final leg of the series. I wonder if one of the other CA tracks will engineer some sort of walkover for Zenyatta later in the year.

[WinterTriangle]

This is horse racing. I hope everyone sends their best and brightest. Sluicing the entire rest of the year down to a myopic bubble where just Rachel and Zenyatta stand isn't interesting to me.

Mostly because of the appearance of it being a grudge match, with the usual bunch of other runners thrown in.

Horse racing is supposed to be competitive, with full fields of contenders, and this is what I want to see. RA and Zen are not unbeatable, they are living breathing beings who have good days and bad days, despite their amazing natural abilities. But a horse race is a horse race, and anything can happen.

I have *no* problem with either of them losing their prep race. Why would I? It's one race.

I'm starting to feel like the other poster, thinking an upset might be the best thing that could happen. Mostly because the histrionic and deep-seated ill will that I see in some of the posts I read all over the internet is just..... UGLY.

[Charlie D]

Maybe Zardana will pummel Rachel, cause Rachel to miss the Apple Blossom, and then Zenyatta will have to compete for a $500K purse....and not $5 million.

And, finally, Bambera will then beat her.

You think we are in for a Big Brown and Da' Tara kind of race at FG then TLG

[senortout]

Perhaps its a wise move entering a decent horse, and in so doing, help to make the race fill!...If the prep races don't fill, the big race may not come to pass...I see the thing from a different perspective than most....

Not doing Rachel a disservice by entering in this case....and not doing his filly any real harm either....

what do others think?

senortout

[WinterTriangle]

Sheriffs and connections send a horse - for example, a speedy one that's trying new ground just for this particular go - to Rachel Alexandra's race, and it's lauded as sportsmanly and innovative

It's far more transparent than Sheriffs thinks.

Oh please. :rolleyes:

If Sheriff's wanted to send a horse to wear RA out on the front end he'd send a rabbit. Zardana is really more of a stalker.

If anything, Zardana is a known G2-level horse, which should give RA connections a good read on how RA is doing off layoff. Nothing at all "sinister" or unsportsmanly here.:bang:

Unless you think Zetcher has a stake or financial interest in Zenyatta or something.:D

[BluegrassProf]

Oh please. :rolleyes: I understand that my second post was a bit wordy - that's my MO, looks like, along with abrasive sarcasm and condescension - but it's really no excuse for not reading it if you plan to quote me. For the record:

Again (and again and again, I've no doubt), IMO, it's not that Zardana is going to have a significant impact on the prep. For me, it really comes down to the laughable disparity between characterizations of Jackson and the Mosses, and of Steve A. and Johnny S.

Very, VERY simple. Appropriately.

Personally, I take little issue with the horse showing up; I see little overall impact on the race itself, in fact (perhaps a 2/3spot, as Hanover suggested?). But the point is moot.
Do I find the entry benign? I certainly do not. But the point I was making re: character constructions stands: If shoes were swapped, the Zenyatta Facebook page would've crashed from the ugliness, and Moyers Pond would've had a damned stroke. And I was right: I had to reiterate. ;)

Perhaps I sounded contradictory making the point in question without advertising it more clearly as such...I blame myself.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

WinterTriangle is right. Absolutely nothing wrong with Zardana being entered in this race and absolutely nothing for RA to fear from it

[GARY Z]

If the Moss team chooses to use a rabbit to win the race
they are admitting they can't beat RA without a rabbit.

Using a rabbit is not unique, but at this point, off a long layoff,
RA could be at a disadvantage based upon a heavy early pace.


This stated, , why didn't the Moss crew play with a rabbit last year
when both RA and Zen were at their prime??

Another stupid play at trying to avoid a legitimate race to prove a point
NOW and avoid a true and fair approach to test these two Icons.

And by the way, there will probably several more matchups after
this race to settle the score, so why f/u this match????

Should Rachel not be up to par, I'd love to see the Rabbit beat her
entry mate :mad:

[Kimsus]

I would much rather have a full field of Gr.3 and or better horses than simply having a no chance rabbit in the field, one can hope that the field will consist of atleast 5 starters to make it a truly run affair. I think that's what we all want, a fairly run race with neither horse having an obvious advantage prior to the race.

[FenceBored]

I'm going to not respond to the I don't know what to call it stuff you mentioned except to say you have a gift for words...though too numerous to painstakenly reply to all. Howver this is what I think is likely, this is not a grand plan to sabotage Rachel as I think you not so quietly inferred to in your 1st post. Zardana is no threat of any kind to Rachel in the race, the fact that she is owned by a different owner and not Moss should be a major clue.


Zardana should not be a threat, because Rachel's connections should ignore her, and everyone else in the race. The prep is about giving Rachel the in-race work she needs to be ready for the Apple Blossom. They need to run her in a fashion that maximises their chances at Oaklawn with less regard to the outcome of the FG race. If it's a choice between winning on 3/16 while gutting Rachel so that she hurts her chances in the Apple Blossom and losing on 3/16 while having Rachel ready to win on 4/9 then it should be a no-brainer.

The only major clue that the different ownership gives us, is the extent to which the other owners who have horses with John Shirreffs are willing to let their horses be used in a manner that advances the interests of Team Zenyatta. It's nice that there's a "one big family" atmosphere to his barn, but that means that the presence of another Shirreffs trainee isn't as innocuous as you would have others think. Why incure the costs of shipping away from a G1 $250k purse to run for an ungraded $200k purse, and away from an AWS she's familiar with to run on dirt (which she hasn't done since she last raced in Brazil 3 years ago)?


It is more likely Sheriff's is using this as a dress rehearsal for the next time he ships in with Zenyatta. It's a smart move to personally gauge how the track is playing and so forth. So I guess we do indeed agree but I don't know why you didn't just say that in the 1st place, instead of implying this was somehow a devious plot by Sheriff's and Co.

Gosh, that would be a great theory, if the Apple Blossom was at the Fairgrounds. :bang:

[Nikki1997]

The only major clue that the different ownership gives us, is the extent to which the other owners who have horses with John Shirreffs are willing to let their horses be used in a manner that advances the interests of Team Zenyatta. It's nice that there's a "one big family" atmosphere to his barn, but that means that the presence of another Shirreffs trainee isn't as innocuous as you would have others think. Why incure the costs of shipping away from a G1 $250k purse to run for an ungraded $200k purse, and away from an AWS she's familiar with to run on dirt (which she hasn't done since she last raced in Brazil 3 years ago)?


You may have a point. Marty Wygod was thinking of Zenyatta when he ran LIS against Z three times last year.

Honestly, some of this stuff is amazing. Every move the Z team makes has got some sort of imagined, hidden agenda. It is borderline comical. In one of the prior posts, someone commented on a rabbit. Good grief. Z has run 14 races without a rabbit. She will run the same type of race or very close to the same type of race she always does. She has shown this over and over again. (14 STRAIGHT times) Put some glasses on, people.

[Show Me the Wire]

FenceBored try loosening the strap on the tin foil hat, it may be too tight ;)

[FenceBored]

You may have a point. Marty Wygod was thinking of Zenyatta when he ran LIS against Z three times last year.


Umm, what'd he gross from the those three races? $30,000 from the first and $18,000 from each of the other two, for a total of $66k. :jump: Could he have spotted his G1 winning filly somewhere else where she would have stood a better chance at more purse money over a three race stretch? Like the Hollywood Gold Cup, for example, where she made $84,000 by finishing 3rd?

She was the only 2009 graded stakes winner Zenyatta faced prior to the Breeders Cup. Wygood and Shirreffs either thought she could beat Zenyatta (in which case Shirreffs, who wasn't interested in Zenyatta getting beat, might be expected to find different lucrative spot for her ala the Hol Gold Cup), or they didn't see her as a threat and she was there as window dressing when she could have gotten a better check somewhere else.

[FenceBored]

FenceBored try loosening the strap on the tin foil hat, it may be too tight ;)

I bow to your superior knowledge on the fitting of tin foil hats.

[Show Me the Wire]

I was referring to Dahoss9698’s stylish model. You two have so much in common in your postings; I have to believe you have similar tastes in foil head wear.


http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2445/tinfoildb52b2f10e7fa983.jpg (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/tinfoildb52b2f10e7fa983.jpg/)


:D

[Nikki1997]

I believe you wrote this a couple of posts ago:

The only major clue that the different ownership gives us, is the extent to which the other owners who have horses with John Shirreffs are willing to let their horses be used in a manner that advances the interests of Team Zenyatta.

LOL. So who are these owners you are referring to? I simply said Marty Wygod ran LIS against Z three times last year. Doesn't sound like he's beating a drum for Zenyatta. Who else has horses in JS barn besides the owner of the other Z filly and Marty Wygod that would participate in such a selfless cause as you describe? Who is in that barn that would fly a huge "Team Zenyatta" flag over their heads while sacrificing their own horses to do so?

[Rackon]

I understand that my second post was a bit wordy - that's my MO, looks like, along with abrasive sarcasm and condescension - but it's really no excuse for not reading it if you plan to quote me. For the record:


Do I find the entry benign? I certainly do not. But the point I was making re: character constructions stands: If shoes were swapped, the Zenyatta Facebook page would've crashed from the ugliness, and Moyers Pond would've had a damned stroke. And I was right: I had to reiterate. ;)

Perhaps I sounded contradictory making the point in question without advertising it more clearly as such...I blame myself.

This kind of point/counter-point is why I'm not enjoying these threads anymore. I like both horses BTW, and I'm tired of both camps. I'm especially tired of this sort of TALK about them.

SHoes swapped. Sheesh. Bye.

[FenceBored]

I believe you wrote this a couple of posts ago:

The only major clue that the different ownership gives us, is the extent to which the other owners who have horses with John Shirreffs are willing to let their horses be used in a manner that advances the interests of Team Zenyatta.

LOL. So who are these owners you are referring to? I simply said Marty Wygod ran LIS against Z three times last year. Doesn't sound like he's beating a drum for Zenyatta. Who else has horses in JS barn besides the owner of the other Z filly and Marty Wygod that would participate in such a selfless cause as you describe? Who is in that barn that would fly a huge "Team Zenyatta" flag over their heads while sacrificing their own horses to do so?

Marty Wygood via LiS made $66k running in 3 races against Zenyatta finishing 2nd, 4th and 4th. He made $84k in LiS's 1 race not against Zenyatta during the period from May-October 2008.

$66k for 3 outings vs. $84k in 1 outing.
Avg earnings $22k vs. Avg earnings $84k.

Hmm, which shows a better return on effort. Now they're going to go run in Dubai against males again, so clearly fear of running her against males again wasn't the issue. Why run against Zen when you stand to make more money not running in those races?

Who else in the barn is willing to take one for Team Zenyatta, you ask? I don't know; I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Can't you just see it, either Shirreffs or Moss wandering the shedrow muttering "will no one rid me of this turbulent filly?"

[letswastemoney]

Zardana should not be a threat, because Rachel's connections should ignore her, and everyone else in the race. The prep is about giving Rachel the in-race work she needs to be ready for the Apple Blossom. They need to run her in a fashion that maximises their chances at Oaklawn with less regard to the outcome of the FG race. If it's a choice between winning on 3/16 while gutting Rachel so that she hurts her chances in the Apple Blossom and losing on 3/16 while having Rachel ready to win on 4/9 then it should be a no-brainer.

The only major clue that the different ownership gives us, is the extent to which the other owners who have horses with John Shirreffs are willing to let their horses be used in a manner that advances the interests of Team Zenyatta. It's nice that there's a "one big family" atmosphere to his barn, but that means that the presence of another Shirreffs trainee isn't as innocuous as you would have others think. Why incure the costs of shipping away from a G1 $250k purse to run for an ungraded $200k purse, and away from an AWS she's familiar with to run on dirt (which she hasn't done since she last raced in Brazil 3 years ago)?



Gosh, that would be a great theory, if the Apple Blossom was at the Fairgrounds. :bang:Isn't Zardana UNDEFEATED on dirt? Why wouldn't she try dirt?

[BluegrassProf]

This kind of point/counter-point is why I'm not enjoying these threads anymore. I like both horses BTW, and I'm tired of both camps. I'm especially tired of this sort of TALK about them.

SHoes swapped. Sheesh. Bye.
Zing! Showed us. :ThmbUp:

Gah. For the love of everything holy.

This is being blown WAY out of whack. This isn't about the potential nefarious, lethal plotting; it isn't as though Johnny S. is waiting in the wings, candlestick in hand, ready to pop Rachel on the noggin. It's about a very simple tactical entry, something that we see all the time. And when I say "all the time," I mean all the time - from countless horses and countless trainers, in countless races, at every track in every state, from sea to shining sea.

It doesn't have to be about a rabbit, as some might say; it could be as simple as testing pace in a prep off a layoff, which many have suggested both here and elsewhere. It really, really, REALLY isn't as conspiracy-theoretical as the ridiculous "tinfoil hat" rhetoric you so cleverly posit.

A for effort! :)

The issue I (and others) have raised is the likelihood that this is a tactical entry, little more. The problem is, some are looking at this issue through the tired "RA v. Z" frame - one that I absolutely DESPISE - which neutralizes even the slightest possibility of rational discussion, and immediately places me, for example, in the simplistic "I HEART RA" box, and frames each post as devisive and/or combative. That the precious few revert to posting pictures (that, btw, were far more appropriate the first time 'round ;) ) is evidence of just this: rather than entertain very VERY simple tactical notions and engaging in a substantive discussion, they revert to rhetoric. It's like the ideology of horseracing, and super exhausting.

I simply suggested that we look critically at how we're framing connections (Nikki, your post exemplifies the problem to which I referred), and that Johnny acknowledge the practical reality of the game.

FenceBored made substantive posts (as many others have, make no mistake!). Not long rants on conspiracies or sermons on why Zenyatta, or Rachel Alexandra, sux. Personally, I find the notion that Sheriffs is testing condition and pace absolutely legitimate. Not treacherous, not demented - tactical. Nikki, why does this have to be about "Team Z" and "everyone else?" More importantly, can you see the subtle hypocrisy of criticizing the "everybody's out to get us" notion by saying "everybody's out to get us?"

It reallyreallyreally isn't a divisive thing...I'm not a bigtime camp cheerleader. Again, most players of any substance are equally interested in ALL competitors, find flaws each, and are quick to acknowledge that there are many ways to play the game - most of which are absolutely legitimate, but obvious.

A rational discussion of a great and complex game. No tin hats.

[Show Me the Wire]

BluegrassProf:

FYI you are one confused puppy. You sharing head wear with Fencebored?

[BluegrassProf]

BluegrassProf:

FYI you are one confused puppy. You sharing head wear with Fencebored? :bang:
See, I couldn't possibly have come up with a better examle of exactly the sort of brilliantly empty comment I JUST referenced...all bark and no substance, just like your last two posts in the thread, decrying much but contributing nothing.

Why so confused? Why not actually discuss the issue, one that is - again - reflective of a really quite simple, everyday reality of TB racing? Not criminal or intricate, but very simply normal? I take little position on the matter, other than to make a point, but that's irrelevant...it's about substance. Even Nikki makes some substantive points at the end of the day, once we get past the Z/RA thing. ;)

No reason to keep up with this silly OT banter and contribute to that which I critique. Perhaps I'm an enabler.

Again, I'll take the blame. :ThmbUp:

[Show Me the Wire]

:bang:
See, I couldn't possibly have come up with a better examle of exactly the sort of brilliantly empty comment I JUST referenced...all bark and no substance, just like your last two posts in the thread, decrying much but contributing nothing........................................... ..................

Why so confused? .

Again, I'll take the blame. :ThmbUp:

You should, you confused Rackon's post with mine. That is why you are one confused puppy. All the multiple personas you have to keep track of don't help either.

[Dahoss9698]

BluegrassProf:

FYI you are one confused puppy. You sharing head wear with Fencebored?

Pot meet kettle

[BluegrassProf]

You should, you confused Rackon's post with mine. That is why you are one confused puppy. All the multiple personas you have to keep track of don't help either.I most certainly did not confuse the two. Quoting Rackon (and subsequently making one pretty clear, small, relatively irrelevant comment on it) had nothing to do with my comments about your posts in the thread, which continue to hold true, and you continue to reinforce: only one persona here...again, empty rhetoric. Another A for effort! :bang:

I mean, you can keep on, but frankly all it's doing is highlighting exactly what I said.

Up to you. :ThmbUp:

But seriously: If nothing else, critique wth substance. At least it'd be useful for the assembly. If you disagree with FB, for crissakes, rationally discuss it rather than just squawking and making generalizations.

If you think it's simply a benign, logical decision for Zardana and Co. to make this start, and perhaps that the notion of, for example, sending a non-Mossy horse to test pace, conditioning, etc., or as a rabbit, or whatever (again, not that I'm overwhelmingly supportive of any of these notions...how can I be more explicit? i'm also not talking intricate conspiracies...this is tactical horse racing, which we see daily) is unprecedented lunacy, just say so, and - importantly - why. You know, like a bunch of other people have done. Because that's substance, and certainly more mature than your contribution...if that lofty term is appropriate. Saying "BECUZ IT'S CRAZYTINHATS" is insufficient...if it's all you have the energy for, cool. Just realize that it is what it is.

Not that I dislike kittyhats, for the record. :p

GAH....enough derailing the topic. Guilty as those I critique. Hypocrisy, I say. :blush:

Back to Zardana et al.

[born2ride]

Zing! Showed us. :ThmbUp:

Gah. For the love of everything holy.

This is being blown WAY out of whack. This isn't about the potential nefarious, lethal plotting; it isn't as though Johnny S. is waiting in the wings, candlestick in hand, ready to pop Rachel on the noggin. It's about a very simple tactical entry, something that we see all the time. And when I say "all the time," I mean all the time - from countless horses and countless trainers, in countless races, at every track in every state, from sea to shining sea.

It doesn't have to be about a rabbit, as some might say; it could be as simple as testing pace in a prep off a layoff, which many have suggested both here and elsewhere. It really, really, REALLY isn't as conspiracy-theoretical as the ridiculous "tinfoil hat" rhetoric you so cleverly posit.

A for effort! :)

The issue I (and others) have raised is the likelihood that this is a tactical entry, little more. The problem is, some are looking at this issue through the tired "RA v. Z" frame - one that I absolutely DESPISE - which neutralizes even the slightest possibility of rational discussion, and immediately places me, for example, in the simplistic "I HEART RA" box, and frames each post as devisive and/or combative. That the precious few revert to posting pictures (that, btw, were far more appropriate the first time 'round ;) ) is evidence of just this: rather than entertain very VERY simple tactical notions and engaging in a substantive discussion, they revert to rhetoric. It's like the ideology of horseracing, and super exhausting.

I simply suggested that we look critically at how we're framing connections (Nikki, your post exemplifies the problem to which I referred), and that Johnny acknowledge the practical reality of the game.

FenceBored made substantive posts (as many others have, make no mistake!). Not long rants on conspiracies or sermons on why Zenyatta, or Rachel Alexandra, sux. Personally, I find the notion that Sheriffs is testing condition and pace absolutely legitimate. Not treacherous, not demented - tactical. Nikki, why does this have to be about "Team Z" and "everyone else?" More importantly, can you see the subtle hypocrisy of criticizing the "everybody's out to get us" notion by saying "everybody's out to get us?"

It reallyreallyreally isn't a divisive thing...I'm not a bigtime camp cheerleader. Again, most players of any substance are equally interested in ALL competitors, find flaws each, and are quick to acknowledge that there are many ways to play the game - most of which are absolutely legitimate, but obvious.

A rational discussion of a great and complex game. No tin hats.
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: Well said Prof.

I don't see anything sinister about entering Zardana. But to think no information will get back to Shirreffs on Rachel, pace, etc is silly. Of course some information will get back to him. It's a part of racing and as the Prof said, is done all the time. Some of you are taking this wayyyy too far and reading way too much into Zardana's entry in the race.

[WinterTriangle]

but to think no information will get back to Shirreffs on Rachel, pace, etc is silly. Of course some information will get back to him.

That information will be published in charts, for the entire world to see, not to mention many handicappers will be crunching figures in different formats, for all to see and read. And there will be many videos. :D

So, I hardly think Sherriffs needs a "spy horse". :D

It's not like nobody knows what Rachel's running style is at this point, unless you're thinking she's turned into a completely different horse now.

[born2ride]

That information will be published in charts, for the entire world to see, not to mention many handicappers will be crunching figures in different formats, for all to see and read. And there will be many videos. :D

So, I hardly think Sherriffs needs a "spy horse". :D

It's not like nobody knows what Rachel's running style is at this point, unless you're thinking she's turned into a completely different horse now.
I'm not implying Zardana is a spy horse for Shirreffs, get real. If you read what I wrote I neither said that or implied it. I'm merely saying that it's a certainty Shirreffs will get information about the race firsthand. It may very well be the same stuff written in the chart, and it may not be. Don't read between the lines, just read what is written and take it for face value and not something underhanded.

[mel4600]

Zardana is undefeated on the dirt. After this race look for the Rachel connections to back out of the Apple Blossom. No way, no how, can Rachel beat Zenyatta.

[PaceAdvantage]

BluegrassProf:

FYI you are one confused puppy. You sharing head wear with Fencebored?Are you running for "King of the Flamers" award this week?

How about instead, you just go back to telling us all (well, you didn't actually come right out and tell us, you sort of implied) how juiced Rachel is...and how she was hooked up to an IV bag throughout her layup....

[Gorgeous George]

So what if Sherriffs is sending a horse to run against rachel. Rachel is a superior horse to Zardana so it shouldnt be a problem. People who think their is hidden agenda to it should take their heads out of their disposal units and wise up. Is what Sherriffs doing illegal,no, will it give him an advantage in the apple blossom,no, does Zenyatta care,no.

[Show Me the Wire]

Are you running for "King of the Flamers" award this week?

How about instead, you just go back to telling us all (well, you didn't actually come right out and tell us, you sort of implied) how juiced Rachel is...and how she was hooked up to an IV bag throughout her layup....

Again, Rachel. I don't care what Asmussen is doing or not doing to her. I don't care if Zenyatta and R.A. ever meet and I don't care if either of them win or lose there next races.

I am not a rabid fan of individual horses, but I enjoy the challenges of the sport, even if it is not a panacea.

Nice to know, that almost any comment I now post is flame worthy material. When the tin foil hat comments were direceted at me, it wasn't considered flame worthy. So I assumed according to established precedent(qoute from Dahoss) it was acceptable speech. Now knowing it is unacceptable I will refrain, and I hope you impose the same atandard on the comments by others directed at me, as you do on my comments directed at others . All I ask is for a level playing field

[joanied]

So what if Sherriffs is sending a horse to run against rachel. Rachel is a superior horse to Zardana so it shouldnt be a problem. People who think their is hidden agenda to it should take their heads out of their disposal units and wise up. Is what Sherriffs doing illegal,no, will it give him an advantage in the apple blossom,no, does Zenyatta care,no.

Well said, George:ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

When the tin foil hat comments were direceted at me, it wasn't considered flame worthy. So I assumed according to established precedent(qoute from Dahoss) it was acceptable speech. Now knowing it is unacceptable I will refrain, and I hope you impose the same atandard on the comments by others directed at me, as you do on my comments directed at others . All I ask is for a level playing fieldCome on man...I KNOW you're smarter than this...and you know better...you know comments like "tin foil hat" and whatever other nonsense you felt the need to "carry forward" is nothing but bullshit designed to inflame and incite.

Just because I may have missed when someone else did it doesn't mean you've got the green light. Lord knows I'm not perfect, but a level playing field is indeed the goal...I just didn't think I needed to school the ones who have been around here for quite a while.

[delayjf]

This stated, , why didn't the Moss crew play with a rabbit last year
when both RA and Zen were at their prime??

Zenyatta never had a "good" opportunity to run against Rachel. RA was not entered in the Woodward until about 1 week before the race, at that point Z had raced 2 weeks prior. They would have had to ship, acclimate and race in less than a week and race on three weeks rest - hardly ideal. As it was, they would not have needed a rabbit, the pace was strong enough.

[GARY Z]

lATEST W/O at 6fg:

13.00/25.60/38.20

Asmussen camp isn't exactly jumping for joy, but is saying
RA is on course for the 3/13 New Orleans Ladies race.

[Spalding No!]

lATEST W/O at 6fg:

13.00/25.60/38.20

Are those the splits? She worked in 1:16.80?

[Show Me the Wire]

PA:

I do know better, that is why I respectfully disagree. The tin foil hat comments are made in relation to people proposing conspiracy theories. I was accused of being a conspiracy follower, because I proposed a particular race horse may have benn setback due to an undisclosed physical injury. That is some whacky idea, that a race horse might suffer an injury and the public not be informed.

Yet when two posters post that unrelated owners of a specific trainer are conspiring for the benefit of another ownerr it is not categorized conspiracy related? That is pure B.S. The idea that a stable, which includes unrelated ownership is working for the common good of one paticular horse is the definition of conspiracy and worthy of a tin foill hat comment.

Turning to the issue of inciting, how about Dahoss's post about the pot and the kettle. Me thinks that was designed to inflame, especially since Dahoss was not the recpient of the tin foil hat wearing comments. Notice I didn't respond to that specific posting as my intent was not to incite, but only to show the silliness of the barn conspiracy theory.

As I said, I ask for a fair playing field. My lack of response to Dahoss's post and that I only metnioned tin foil hats in two postings illustrates I used the terminology appropriately and pursuant to the established precedent.

[born2ride]

Are those the splits? She worked in 1:16.80?
No, she worked 6f in 1:13.6.

[Spalding No!]

No, she worked 6f in 1:13:6.

Yes, but why does GARY Z have the splits adding up to 1:16+?

[FenceBored]

Yet when two posters post that unrelated owners of a specific trainer are conspiring for the benefit of another ownerr it is not categorized conspiracy related? That is pure B.S. The idea that a stable, which includes unrelated ownership is working for the common good of one paticular horse is the definition of conspiracy and worthy of a tin foill hat comment.


So, it's a conspiracy any time a racing secretary goes to a trainer and asks for help getting an allowance race to fill, because a different trainer told the race sec, he really needs this race as a prep for that stake next month? Boy, if HBO includes this stuff in their new series the Soprano's will look like Hannah Montana! :eek:

[Show Me the Wire]

So, it's a conspiracy any time a racing secretary goes to a trainer and asks for help getting an allowance race to fill, because a different trainer told the race sec, he really needs this race as a prep for that stake next month? Boy, if HBO includes this stuff in their new series the Soprano's will look like Hannah Montana! :eek:

I Know you have problems understanding the nuances between varying situations, but your above assertion is absurd.

The above "conspiracy" to fill a race is very different than the assertions made by you and agreed with by Prof.

[Dahoss9698]

PA:

I do know better, that is why I respectfully disagree. The tin foil hat comments are made in relation to people proposing conspiracy theories. I was accused of being a conspiracy follower, because I proposed a particular race horse may have benn setback due to an undisclosed physical injury. That is some whacky idea, that a race horse might suffer an injury and the public not be informed.

Yet when two posters post that unrelated owners of a specific trainer are conspiring for the benefit of another ownerr it is not categorized conspiracy related? That is pure B.S. The idea that a stable, which includes unrelated ownership is working for the common good of one paticular horse is the definition of conspiracy and worthy of a tin foill hat comment.

Turning to the issue of inciting, how about Dahoss's post about the pot and the kettle. Me thinks that was designed to inflame, especially since Dahoss was not the recpient of the tin foil hat wearing comments. Notice I didn't respond to that specific posting as my intent was not to incite, but only to show the silliness of the barn conspiracy theory.

As I said, I ask for a fair playing field. My lack of response to Dahoss's post and that I only metnioned tin foil hats in two postings illustrates I used the terminology appropriately and pursuant to the established precedent.

This is pretty sad.

[FenceBored]

I Know you have problems understanding the nuances between varying situations, but your above assertion is absurd.

The above "conspiracy" to fill a race is very different than the assertions made by you and agreed with by Prof.

Nope, only in your imagination. Sometimes the untrained mind is fooled by the flashing lights into not seeing the underlying similarities. Trainer A = Wygood; Race sec = Shireffs; Trainer B = Moss. QED.