After the Blossom...

[only11]

IF Z wins does she continue her schedule towards a repeat of the Breeders cup?if Z loses IMO she retires.
RA if she wins and continues undefeated the rest of the way does she take a shot @ the Classic? If she loses does she retire?

Its going to be interesting to see what happens to either horse after the race especially to the loser of the race..Thoughts..

[tzipi]

Well horse racing is dead if they are going to start retiring top horses because they lose a race.
Win or lose they should both be running this year if the are 100% healthy. I don't think the camps expect an easy undefeated year from either one. I think they have it in their minds they will probably take a loss this year. Whether it's the Apple Blossum or not.

[joanied]

Well horse racing is dead if they are going to start retiring top horses because they lose a race.
Win or lose they should both be running this year if the are 100% healthy. I don't think the camps expect an easy undefeated year from either one. I think they have it in their minds they will probably take a loss this year. Whether it's the Apple Blossum or not.

:ThmbUp: :) :ThmbUp:

[Java Gold@TFT]

They have both already missed breeding season by the Apple Blossom so any premature retirement would just be for an owner's ego. I would hope that either Moss or Jackson do realize that a few races against each other would be better than saving an unbeaten streak or a defense of HOY.

[joanied]

They have both already missed breeding season by the Apple Blossom so any premature retirement would just be for an owner's ego. I would hope that either Moss or Jackson do realize that a few races against each other would be better than saving an unbeaten streak or a defense of HOY.

I beleive both owners knows this...that one race ain't going to be enough, and I think once the Apple Blossom is done, another race will be in the works...Jackson wants a series of 3, Moss says he had no idea Jackson was trying to work with the NYRA on a series for both mares...one reason I think Belmont is thinking about doing away with the D barn is that Moss won't ship to Belmont if Z has to spend time in that barn...
and it's obvious that on April 9th...one of these mares is going to loose...unless I have my way and we get a dead heat:jump:

[Cardus]

Racing climaxes "After the Blossom." I find no reason to continue watching the sport subsequently.

[Moyers Pond]

IF Z wins does she continue her schedule towards a repeat of the Breeders cup?if Z loses IMO she retires.
RA if she wins and continues undefeated the rest of the way does she take a shot @ the Classic? If she loses does she retire?

Its going to be interesting to see what happens to either horse after the race especially to the loser of the race..Thoughts..

Neither horse is going to retire. Zenyatta will be in the BCC because she can get the 10f and there is not exactly a ton of great 10f dirt horses running right now.

Rachel won't retire either. She could lose and still take all the 9f grade 1 dirt races. Her situation is obviously different than Zenyatta because she likely will have to deal with Quality Road in all the big 8f and 9f dirt races while Zenyatta can head back west until the BC.

Both of these horses appear to be at the top of their game, so no reason to retire them regardless of the outcome.

The bad thing that can come out of this race is the winner avoids the other the rest of the year. Zenyatta could just go back West which would be annoying because I doubt Rachel is going to show up in a 10f dirt race in the fall. Rachel can win and never run a 10f dirt race in her career.

[OntheRail]

Neither horse is going to retire. Zenyatta will be in the BCC because she can get the 10f and there is not exactly a ton of great 10f dirt horses running right now.

Rachel won't retire either. She could lose and still take all the 9f grade 1 dirt races. Her situation is obviously different than Zenyatta because she likely will have to deal with Quality Road in all the big 8f and 9f dirt races while Zenyatta can head back west until the BC.

Both of these horses appear to be at the top of their game, so no reason to retire them regardless of the outcome.

The bad thing that can come out of this race is the winner avoids the other the rest of the year. Zenyatta could just go back West which would be annoying because I doubt Rachel is going to show up in a 10f dirt race in the fall. Rachel can win and never run a 10f dirt race in her career.

MoPo You keep going on and on about Zen and Ten. Tell me how many races has Zen ran at 10f oh and on dirt? Whatever happens in the AB I know JJ will not stall RA. Moss hard to say for sure Zen was "Retired" once had a fanfare send off and all.... so who's to say. I do know this if Moss wants a shot at HOTY he well not head back West and hide out till the BC not gonna happen this year either.

So anyway Zen and Ten how many was that.... 1-0 if I'm not mistaken.

[bisket]

i seriously doubt that rachel will go through the year without running in a 1 1/4 mile race. for mares estblishment of stamina influence is pretty important. my guess though is it will be against other fillies and mares. unless of course she runs in the classic.

[Moyers Pond]

MoPo You keep going on and on about Zen and Ten. Tell me how many races has Zen ran at 10f oh and on dirt? Whatever happens in the AB I know JJ will not stall RA. Moss hard to say for sure Zen was "Retired" once had a fanfare send off and all.... so who's to say. I do know this if Moss wants a shot at HOTY he well not head back West and hide out till the BC not gonna happen this year either.

So anyway Zen and Ten how many was that.... 1-0 if I'm not mistaken.

1-0 with little effort in the biggest race of the year. Her entire career has screamed more distance and her jockey has alluded to it. Have you ever seen her gallop out after a race?

Just look at her after she dismantled the champ Ginger Punch in the 8.5f dirt race. She looks like she could have run 12f.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X9171jxrlE

[cj]

1-0 with little effort in the biggest race of the year. Her entire career has screamed more distance and her jockey has alluded to it. Have you ever seen her gallop out after a race?

Just look at her after she dismantled the champ Ginger Punch in the 8.5f dirt race. She looks like she could have run 12f.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X9171jxrlE

Ginger Punch was a slug compared to Rachel.

[Moyers Pond]

i seriously doubt that rachel will go through the year without running in a 1 1/4 mile race. for mares estblishment of stamina influence is pretty important. my guess though is it will be against other fillies and mares. unless of course she runs in the classic.

Why? The guy who owns her is going to breed her and keep her babies. He is a billionaire.

[Moyers Pond]

Ginger Punch was a slug compared to Rachel.

I would hope so considering the UNDEFEATED Zenyatta (14-14) beat GP by 8 lengths in a 8.5f dirt race.

I think that was the same year Rachel Alexandra was losing to 3 great fillies Songstress, then Garden District, and Sara Louise. :lol:

[cj]

I would hope so considering the UNDEFEATED Zenyatta (14-14) beat GP by 8 lengths in a 8.5f dirt race.

I think that was the same year Rachel Alexandra was losing to 3 great fillies Songstress, then Garden District, and Sara Louise. :lol:

If Zenyatta had raced at 2 I doubt she would be undefeated.

[Moyers Pond]

If Zenyatta had raced at 2 I doubt she would be undefeated.

Hey, that may be true, but there is something to be said for a top grade 1 horse that has races against the boys NEVER losing. Rachel is an exceptional horse, but she has tasted defeat.

[BluegrassProf]

Hey, that may be true, but there is something to be said for a top grade 1 horse that has races against the boys NEVER losing. Rachel is an exceptional horse, but she has tasted defeat.
Submitting my vote for the least-logical post of the thread thus far.

Golf-clap! :ThmbUp:

[cj]

Hey, that may be true, but there is something to be said for a top grade 1 horse that has races against the boys NEVER losing. Rachel is an exceptional horse, but she has tasted defeat.

Again, so what? Had she waited to race until almost her 4yo birthday imagine all the great moments we would have missed.

[born2ride]

[QUOTE=Moyers Pond]1-0 with little effort in the biggest race of the year. Her entire career has screamed more distance and her jockey has alluded to it. Have you ever seen her gallop out after a race?

Just look at her after she dismantled the champ Ginger Punch in the 8.5f dirt race. She looks like she could have run 12f.

[QUOTE]
Shirreffs recognized Zen was progressing slowing as a 3-year old and he handled Zen's career brilliantly by not forcing her early. I think he knows this horse very well, and running her in 9 of her 14 races at 1 1/16 does not IMO scream that the horse wants more distance.

[FenceBored]

Shirreffs recognized Zen was progressing slowing as a 3-year old and he handled Zen's career brilliantly by not forcing her early. I think he knows this horse very well, and running her in 9 of her 14 races at 1 1/16 does not IMO scream that the horse wants more distance.

To be fair, the distances are not really Shireffs fault. The races she has run twice (Milady, Vanity, Clement Hirsch, Lady's Secret) are the only graded main track F/M routes in CA from May - Oct. If you have a G1 mare, and you're staying in CA, as they were doing with the BC@OSA, then those are the races you're going to have to run.

[OntheRail]

Hey, that may be true, but there is something to be said for a top grade 1 horse that has races against the boys NEVER losing. Rachel is an exceptional horse, but she has tasted defeat.

She did and shook it off and rolled forward like a Champ. ;)

Originally Posted by Moyers Pond 1-0 with little effort in the biggest race of the year. OF Her entire career

On her home track against a weak feild on plastic. I'll waite to see how she returns to dirt after 3 plus years off of it. And see if she still wants 12f as you claim.

[SmartyLane]

Submitting my vote for the least-logical post of the thread thus far.

Golf-clap! :ThmbUp:


I 2nd that. I love them both but come on now, Zenyatta didn't even have a 2 year old or 3 year old season. She raced as a mature 4 year old to start with. RA was a young filly at two that got beat one time.

[Zenyatta To Crush]

1-0 with little effort in the biggest race of the year. Her entire career has screamed more distance and her jockey has alluded to it. Have you ever seen her gallop out after a race?

Just look at her after she dismantled the champ Ginger Punch in the 8.5f dirt race. She looks like she could have run 12f.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X9171jxrlE
Not to take anything away from Zenyatta's performance, but Brownie Points beat Ginger Punch by like 3 lengths in this race too so GP was obviously not at her best. Brownie Points is a solid horse, but GP on a good day should be able to handle her.

I do however believe Zenyatta is basically unbeatable at 1-1/4 miles. I'm not sure if Rachel can hold her off at that distance...or any distance. I hope they both run their race in the Apple Blossom and give us an exciting stretch run.

[born2ride]

To be fair, the distances are not really Shireffs fault. The races she has run twice (Milady, Vanity, Clement Hirsch, Lady's Secret) are the only graded main track F/M routes in CA from May - Oct. If you have a G1 mare, and you're staying in CA, as they were doing with the BC@OSA, then those are the races you're going to have to run.
Not true at all. There's the Santa Margarita at 1 1/8, San Luis Rey at 1 1/2 if she wanted distance, Santa Anita Derby at 1 1/8, Santa Barbara Handicap at 1 1/4, San Juan Capistrano Invitational at 1 3/4 for another race at distance, then over at Hollywood she could have run in the Californian at 1 1/8 or the Hollywood Gold Cup at 1 1/4. Then there's always the Pacific Classic at Del Mar at 1 1/4. True some of these are G2s, but there are plenty of G1s. Then there's the Louisville Distaff out of state last May, which is at 1 1/16. I understand the BC was at SA for two years, but there were plenty of races at distances greater than 1 1/16 at SA, Hollywood and Del Mar.

[born2ride]

I do however believe Zenyatta is basically unbeatable at 1-1/4 miles. I'm not sure if Rachel can hold her off at that distance...or any distance. I hope they both run their race in the Apple Blossom and give us an exciting stretch run.
Zenyatta's pedigree screams 1 1/16 and 1 1/8, however it's her running style and conservation of energy that gets her 1 1/4. She's very vulnerable at 1 1/4 IMO.

[Dahoss9698]

Not true at all. There's the Santa Margarita at 1 1/8, San Luis Rey at 1 1/2 if she wanted distance, Santa Anita Derby at 1 1/8, Santa Barbara Handicap at 1 1/4, San Juan Capistrano Invitational at 1 3/4 for another race at distance, then over at Hollywood she could have run in the Californian at 1 1/8 or the Hollywood Gold Cup at 1 1/4. Then there's always the Pacific Classic at Del Mar at 1 1/4. True some of these are G2s, but there are plenty of G1s. Then there's the Louisville Distaff out of state last May, which is at 1 1/16. I understand the BC was at SA for two years, but there were plenty of races at distances greater than 1 1/16 at SA, Hollywood and Del Mar.

The San Luis Rey, Santa Barbara and San Juan Capistrano are all on turf.

The Santa Anita Derby is for 3 year olds and run in April. She hadn't even started by April of her 3 year old year. And the Santa Margarita is in March.

I do agree she could have run in one of the races against males (Californian, Hollywood Gold Cup and Pacific Classic), but they decided to coddle her until the BC.

[Zenyatta To Crush]

Zenyatta's pedigree screams 1 1/16 and 1 1/8, however it's her running style and conservation of energy that gets her 1 1/4. She's very vulnerable at 1 1/4 IMO.
She just seems so talented that she could probably win big races at any distance. I wouldn't be surprised if she could beat top sprinters at 6 furlongs. Her slow starts and lack of early pace might be a disadvantage, but like Ghostzapper, it seems like she could be pretty versatile and win at 6 furlongs and 1-1/4 miles.

[the little guy]

She just seems so talented that she could probably win big races at any distance. I wouldn't be surprised if she could beat top sprinters at 6 furlongs. Her slow starts and lack of early pace might be a disadvantage, but like Ghostzapper, it seems like she could be pretty versatile and win at 6 furlongs and 1-1/4 miles.


Just imagine how great she would be in quarter horse races.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Just imagine how great she would be in quarter horse races.

Maybe not 220 or 250, but 870 - oh yeah.

[born2ride]

She just seems so talented that she could probably win big races at any distance. I wouldn't be surprised if she could beat top sprinters at 6 furlongs. Her slow starts and lack of early pace might be a disadvantage, but like Ghostzapper, it seems like she could be pretty versatile and win at 6 furlongs and 1-1/4 miles.
With her running style she could very well get 1 1/2, as well as 1 1/4 several times this year. 6f may be a bit short for her, who knows. In some ways she reminds me of an exotic sports car that's only been driven on surface streets. I'd like to see them open the throttle onn her and let's see what she's got!

[born2ride]

The San Luis Rey, Santa Barbara and San Juan Capistrano are all on turf.

The Santa Anita Derby is for 3 year olds and run in April. She hadn't even started by April of her 3 year old year. And the Santa Margarita is in March.

I do agree she could have run in one of the races against males (Californian, Hollywood Gold Cup and Pacific Classic), but they decided to coddle her until the BC.
I was going off memory and was thinking in terms of 1 1/8, and got the surface and conditions mixed up between the SA Hdcp and Derby.

By you got my point, there are other SoCal races that she could've entered.

[Moyers Pond]

Zenyatta's pedigree screams 1 1/16 and 1 1/8, however it's her running style and conservation of energy that gets her 1 1/4. She's very vulnerable at 1 1/4 IMO.

Sure, tons of horses run 112 beyers going 10f while winning the Breeders Cup Classic handily.

[Dahoss9698]

I was going off memory and was thinking in terms of 1 1/8, and got the surface and conditions mixed up between the SA Hdcp and Derby.

By you got my point, there are other SoCal races that she could've entered.

She could have raced against males at those distances. I'm not really sure how the turf races you mentioned factor in though.

[Dahoss9698]

Sure, tons of horses run 112 beyers going 10f while winning the Breeders Cup Classic handily.

Handily?

[born2ride]

She could have raced against males at those distances. I'm not really sure how the turf races you mentioned factor in though.
I wasn't thinking turf for Z, of the races I was thinking that she could've entered, I got the surface and distance mixed up.

My point was that there were enough other races out there at 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 that Z could have run in besides the 1 1/16 ones she did run in.

[born2ride]

Sure, tons of horses run 112 beyers going 10f while winning the Breeders Cup Classic handily.
I'd not describe her victory, as scintillating as it was, as "handily". And yeah, 10f on dirt Z is vulnerable.

[joanied]

Know what I think :eek: ...I think we should wait until after the Apple Blossom...then we can all start placing both mares in their next race:D ;) :D

[joanied]

If Zenyatta had raced at 2 I doubt she would be undefeated.

If Zenyatta had raced at 2, she'd probably be a hurting horse now...they did the right thing with her.

[bisket]

as far as what distance is best for zen. i think the ploy track has really confused this issue. i have an opinion that i use in my own handicapping that has worked rather well for me on the distance question for horses coming from poly to dirt. i feel any horse that can win at 1 1/16 mile on poly can win at 1 1/8 mile on dirt. any horse that can win at 1 1/8 mile on poly can win at 1 1/4 mile on dirt etc. i just think it takes a little more stamina to win in general on poly compared to dirt. just my opinion but it works for me.

[FenceBored]

I wasn't thinking turf for Z, of the races I was thinking that she could've entered, I got the surface and distance mixed up.

My point was that there were enough other races out there at 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 that Z could have run in besides the 1 1/16 ones she did run in.

Not under the conditions the owners were wanting:

California
Graded
Main track routes
Filly and mare race
May to early October
There are 4 races that meet those criteria, the 4 she ran in two years in a row. That three of them are 1 1/16 is not the doing of the owners/trainer. That's all I'm saying.

You want to say they should have expanded their horizons, and run against males? Depends on what they wanted most; if they wanted to test her against stiffer competition, then yes. Otherwise, why take the risk.

[FenceBored]

Sure, tons of horses run 112 beyers going 10f while winning the Breeders Cup Classic handily.

Um, do you even think before you post this stuff? 'Cause she's tied for the second lowest Beyer of the last 20 runnings, only the unadjusted number for Raven's Pass is lower.

[born2ride]

Not under the conditions the owners were wanting:

California
Graded
Main track routes
Filly and mare race
May to early October
There are 4 races that meet those criteria, the 4 she ran in two years in a row. That three of them are 1 1/16 is not the doing of the owners/trainer. That's all I'm saying.

You want to say they should have expanded their horizons, and run against males? Depends on what they wanted most; if they wanted to test her against stiffer competition, then yes. Otherwise, why take the risk.
I see your point.

[born2ride]

as far as what distance is best for zen. i think the ploy track has really confused this issue. i have an opinion that i use in my own handicapping that has worked rather well for me on the distance question for horses coming from poly to dirt. i feel any horse that can win at 1 1/16 mile on poly can win at 1 1/8 mile on dirt. any horse that can win at 1 1/8 mile on poly can win at 1 1/4 mile on dirt etc. i just think it takes a little more stamina to win in general on poly compared to dirt. just my opinion but it works for me.
Poly definitely confuses the issue, and I think you're accurate in your assessment of what it takes to win on poly vs dirt.